The breakfast, lunch and dinner of champions

[Paul Myers]

In another thread, Jason Moffatt said something about feedback that really stuck with me as being an important lesson. I think it warrants separate discussion. His comment...

[F]ew people ask real questions, but rather are looking for validation in their own thoughts.

I would suggest that, for a lot of people, that may be the most important sentence you'll read this week, if you just think about it.

We often hear people say that action is the single thing that makes the difference between success and failure. While there's a lot of truth to that, it doesn't explain how some people can take consistent, massive action and still fail.

Jason's comment explains that perfectly, in just 15 words.

It doesn't just apply to direct questions, like "Why isn't XYZ working for me?" It applies to everything. As marketers, we should be looking at all the responses we get, not just conversion rates and EPC. Every action someone takes as a result of their exposure to our messages is, to some extent, affected by our initial communication. It's the other person communicating back.

If we listen to those communications, and adjust to them, we can get more of the actions we want and give our prospects and customers more of what they want - the way they want it. If we're just looking for validation - someone to tell us that we're right - we're not going to adjust, and we'll keep getting the same results.

You don't take every comment you hear as gospel, of course. You look at where it came from, and why the person said it. If it's from some complete newbie in a forum, and they're just saying how much they hate ABC, you should probably ignore it. But if it's your prospects reacting badly to ABC, you should take that very seriously.

People who get my newsletter know that I regularly ask for feedback. I don't promise to reply to it all, but I do promise to read it all. And I do.

I wrote a sales letter for a product last year, and it converted pretty well. I added a significant amount of content to it, and adjusted the copy to reflect that. When I plugged it, the response rate was lower than previously. I figured it was just because so many people had already seen it.

Wrong.

A gentleman who looked at it sent me a note, describing how he felt while reading various parts of the letter. Because he focused on his feelings, instead of trying to analyze the copy, he nailed it. He pinpointed exactly what was wrong with the copy. It was so clear that, when I went back to look at it, I felt foolish for having made such amateurish mistakes.

Made the appropriate adjustments, and the conversion rate is higher than it was the first time, despite the price being almost doubled.

Yay, feedback!

Another example: I get a lot of positive comments on my writing. For quite a while, though, there've been occasional people who remarked on one aspect of it that they found difficult. They could just never quite nail down what it was that bothered them. I was sort of getting it, but not quite.

A friend who's a writer, but not in this business, signed up for the newsletter. He sent me a note pointing out a place he thought I could improve. He was the first one who was able to explain it in a way that made it clear. It was easily the most valuable suggestion I've gotten for improving my writing in all the time I've been online.

Another: I started a project a while back, in an area where I'm more than slightly experienced. I asked a friend for critique, and he pointed out a number of things he thought needed changed. Looked at them and realized he was right. Made the changes, and that project is doing quite a bit better because I looked for advice.

These are the sorts of things that move you ahead in big jumps, instead of little increments. If you assume you're right, you're going to miss those jumps.

The key with each of them is that these were people who were genuinely trying to be helpful, and who were more interested in seeing me get better results than in whether it might hurt my fragile feelings to hear the truth. And they knew what they were talking about.

When people ask, "Do you think this will work?," one of the most common answers is, "Test." That's marketer's shorthand for, "Get feedback from the people who matter, in a real decision-making situation."

If you don't track the responses, as many types as possible, you're asking, but not listening to the answers. If your only answer to low sales is to try and throw more traffic at the system, you're assuming that you've got the best technique you can get. That's just throwing money away.

If you get a consistent response, whether to marketing or to more personal interactions, you're causing that response. If people really like you, there's a reason. If a lot of people think you're a jerk, there's a reason for that, too. The same reason.

The way you make them feel.

If you ignore feedback of any kind, you're falling into the trap Jason mentioned. If you only listen to people who agree with you, you're stuck in it, big time. If you criticize your prospects, blaming them for your lack of sales, you may be too far gone for help.

To help people see the value of feedback, let's hear some more examples. Was there a time you ignored feedback, and what did it cost you?

If you've taken feedback and adjusted based on it, what were the benefits?

What do you consider to be valid and useful feedback, and what do you ignore? And why?


Paul

[John Taylor]

Paul,

Learning how to ask for and respond to constructive
feedback is one of the most important business lessons
we can learn.

While your posts demonstrates the importance of seeking
feedback, it's a bit light on how to respond.

One prerequisite to asking for feedback is being willing to
accept it for what it is.

Lot's of people get confused with the difference between
the content and the context. They get feedback and then
take on the mantle of defensiveness, they take it personally
and they respond by trying to justify why the feedback is
wrong or doesn't apply to their specific situation.

It's critically important that we are able to accept feedback
with an open and objective mind.

John

[Paul Myers]

John,

While your posts demonstrates the importance of seeking feedback, it's a bit light on how to respond.

So, is this an example of "feedback?"


Paul

[Raydal]

For sure not everyone who asks for a critique wants one.

I've seen this demonstrated here just yesterday. But for
sure if the customer is your target then how he sees you is
more important than how you see yourself.

This is a great post to keep in mind when asking for advice
on any aspect of your business.

Validation has it's place but to seek it at the detriment of
honest feedback that could benefit your business is foolhardy.

-Ray Edwards

[Martin Luxton]

Paul,

I am finding one of the best feedback tools I have now is self-knowledge and self-reflection.

Let me explain.

I think people can be hypocritical in the advice they give - the old favourite "Don't do as I do, do as I say".

I'm as guilty as the next person, telling people what to do but not doing it myself.

Lately, when I am thinking about giving advice, I ask myself

"Am I following that advice myself?"

If the answer is no, I try not to say anything (not always easy!) because it beggars the question

"If my advice is so good, why aren't I acting on it, too?"

A good starting point with this is your parents. Look at their habits that annoy you and then be honest - do you do the same?

How can this help you in business? Over time you become less defensive and more open to constructive criticism.

For example, my wife was telling me one of the irritating things I did that was just like my mum.

First few reactions: "No way!"

Later: "Mmmm, maybe she has a point."

Still later: "Sh****t, she's right!"

Finally: "Must work on eliminating this."

Now, when people criticize me, I take on board what they are saying and, if they have a point, I'll work on the problem.

Martin

[Steven Wagenheim]

Wow, wow, wow.

Oh this hits so close to home you have no idea. Or maybe you do.

I'll be the first to admit to falling into that "only listen to those who agree
with you" syndrome. And this is so easy to do especially when you're having
success. It's almost like you're saying, "What do they know? I'm doing all
right."

Ah, but you can always do better. But if you let your pride and ego get
in the way (yeah, that's what it is) then you're shooting yourself in the
foot.

Trust me, I have the powder burns on my big toe to show for it.

It isn't easy, but I am working very hard on really listening to the
advice of those who know what they're talking about.

Thank you for a very sobering and much needed thread.

[R Hagel]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

If you've taken feedback and adjusted based on it, what were the benefits?

We used to sit around in grad school and rip each others' research ideas to shreds. Setting the ego aside and listening to feedback allowed us (me and everyone else) to create better hypotheses, design better experiments, put out better research. We got better grades and we got published as a result.

In business the useful feedback has translated directly into more money. I've had folks who've told me how to:

Improve my sales letters.
Improve my products.
Improve my sales process.
Improve my newsletters.
Improve my site design.

... well, pretty much everything. And the good stuff translated directly into me making more money and/or making my business more efficient.

As for when I listen to and when I ignore feedback...

I'm open to listening to what most anyone has to say on a subject. (Not that I blindly implement all of it, but I am open to discussion.)

In some cases my own experience may point to an entirely different conclusion -- in which case I'll probably stick with what I'm doing (e.g., ignore the feedback). However, I'll take a second look at the feedback if someone else who's also experienced on the topic has a different conclusion.

Example: Joe Schmoe -- who's never owned a hamster -- has an opinion about hamster care. Then Kevin Riley shows up with his two cents. I'm more inclined to listen to KR because he has experience to back up his feedback.

Cheers,
Becky

[charlesburke]

Yeah, we all do this - ask for advice, then rationalize why that advice doesn't apply in this case. In my circle of friends, we sometimes ask each other for advice on new sales letters, new products, etc. Often I've seen my advice dismissed, never to be thought of again.

But occasionally surprises come. I listened to one friend's product recordings and mentioned that his reading sounded a bit choppy and suggested how to change his reading style. His response - "Well, I've already recorded them, so I'll leave it."

However, a few months later, when I heard his next product, he'd incorporated all the advice I gave, and the result was a big step up in professional sound.

Since then, I've started paying more attention to the advice my friends care enough to offer.

So yes, sometimes our advice and recommendations seem to have been ignored. But it may be that they just took a litle time to filter down and take effect, like Martin's slow wake-up to his wife's comments.

Cheers from warm and smiling Thailand,
Charles

[TMG Enterprises]

Yet another addition to my WarriorPDF collection. Also one of the best actual discussions that I've seen in here for some time. Each person that's responded has added something valuable to the conversation. I'm not sure that I will continue that trend but I will try.

What do you consider to be valid and useful feedback, and what do you ignore? And why?

I try to consider every bit of feedback that I get, whether good or bad. "This sucks" or "I don't like the way you worded that" gets very little consideration because it doesn't tell me anything. If you're giving feedback, put some thought into it and give some reasoning behind it.

I will give a much higher consideration to any feedback that tells me the why behind the critique because then there is something actually actionable and/or testable (is that a word?).

If you're feedback is full of "I think", "I believe" and "I've heard" then that feedback is going to carry less weight with me. That tells me that you are not going by personal experience so it's like hearsay to me.

Absolutes also make me give less credence to any feedback. "That won't work" or "that tactic is dead" are similar to answers we read all the time in this forum and they are always incorrect. Just about anything will work at least some of the time, even if it's only the one in a thousand chance.

Tina G

[Peter Bestel]

This is indeed a vitally important topic of discussion. Handling feedback effectively is such an essential ingredient for all mature business folk it's disappointing that we don't see many examples of how to do it properly within the products that are getting sold to us.

Yes, disappointing but not surprising - it's not that sexy is it.

Knowing how to deal with feedback requires a degree of self-awareness and self-confidence that is apparent more by its absence in a lot of posts on this forum. There appears to be a need for teachings on such a topic but I'm not sure about the level of desire to learn.

However, forums such as this can be an ideal place to get initial feedback on draft sales copy, squeeze pages, graphics etc. Personally, I like to approach my own trusted contacts who I know will praise and criticise when necessary. When I have brought stuff to be critiqued to this place I'm aware that I sift through the responses from folk I trust, not necessarily agree with, but trust that they usually know what they're talking about.

And that's another element to this issue and it applies to Jason's quote too. Folk will often give feedback for personal validation, forgetting that giving feedback is all about the recipient and not the giver.

Peter

[TMG Enterprises]

Folk will often give feedback for personal validation, forgetting that giving feedback is all about the recipient and not the giver.

Very important point, particularly when dealing with the variety of people on a public forum. You see too many that want to make themselves look better or more intelligent than they actually are.

Tina G

[Nick Brighton]

Great post Paul,

I get my feedback from testing, and my validation from forums.

If I did it the other way around, I'd still be spending all day on
forums, instead of making money in my handful of websites.

In fact, if we spent more time testing and getting real life feedback
from our customers instead of theoretical canned responses from
others who have no choice or insight to offer anything but, then
perhaps this forum may not have enough posts to justify Mr Says
hosting costs...

[Stavros]

This thread puts me in mind of what my old dad used to tell me, gawd blessim!.

He'd often say, "..just remember boy, not everyone who disagrees with you is your enemy, and not everyone that agrees with you is your friend".

The problem is, in this world of folk changing the meaning of words to something entirely different every day, of exaggeration, spin and hype being the order of the day, not to mention the background noise-level from those who’ve lied so often they themselves no longer know what is true and what isn’t (no names no pack-drill), how do you decide who you believe?

Show me someone who doesn’t have a vested interest, and I’ll show you someone who probably doesn’t know what they are talking about.

[Ken Preuss]

Paul - an extremely valuable post as well as some extremely valuable responses.

Here's something for all of us to consider as well.

Once you understand that most people (including you, me and everyone else) are going through life constantly looking to validate our own thoughts and world views, this leads to a powerful marketing lesson:

The top marketers in the world find a specific audience with a shared world view (set of beliefs)... then they market directly to that world view in *everything* they do.

Translation: Prospects and consumers in every niche are involved with that niche because of certain beliefs they have. Once you understand exactly what those beliefs are and mold your branding, message, marketing, etc. accordingly, the sky is the limit.

To tie this in with the OP, their feedback is the gateway to fully understanding their beliefs and world view.

Pretty powerful stuff.

Ken

[traces2757]

People are emotion-driven. Not only should we carefully gauge the emotional reactions that we elicit from people, we should also gauge our own emotional reactions to their reactions. (Take all the time you need to wrap your mind around that.)

Overall, it's how we feel (note "feel") about what we're doing and the paths we're taking that determine whether we consider ourselves successful or not. Granted, I said "overall". It takes a lot to get to that "overall", and that involves staying very open.

[JohnMcCabe]

One of the biggest things I've gotten from seeking feedback is in how I respond to that feedback. When I show someone my baby, and they tell me it's an ugly child, it's easy to get defensive.

For example, I might post a request for feedback on an article or piece of copy. Someone comes back and says, "I don't like the way you did XYZ. You should try ABC..."

I used to come back with, "But here's why I did XYZ..."

The usual response? "If you didn't want my opinion, why did you ask?"

OOPS. I'd be guilty of assuming the other person could read my mind.

When I started framing the reply as, "Here's why I did XYZ. Is the problem in the approach or the execution? And why do you recommend ABC instead?"

I'm making it clear that I'm not being defensive, rather I'm seeking additional feedback. And I usually get it.

Am I perfect at this? Heck, no. But I'm getting better...

[TimGross]

My favorite quote I've heard this week is by Upton Sinclair:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

...While it's not directly applicable to how we deal with feedback/criticism, it is related, because criticism can affect our belief in our competence:

If you believe yourself to be an expert at marketing/copywriting, you need the confidence of believing that you are very good at what you do. Not having that confidence could shatter your belief that you can continue to put food on your family's table through your talent and efforts, etc.

Like the Fonz not being able to admit he was "w...w...w...wrong", it's very uncomfortable to your self-image to acknowledge that in a sense you missed something, that you've fallen short. To some degree that's why, even when we know we want feedback, if it's too all-encompassing, our defense mechanism kicks in and deflects it.

...OK, maybe that quote's not related at all, but I still like it. :-)

(Updated attempted clarification, although I'm not sure if it helped:
The Upton Sinclair quote I believe meant, a tobacco company executive doesn't truly want to understand that his products are killing people if morally that understanding would force him to quit his job. In my example, belief in your marketing skills affects your belief in your ongoing "salary" as an entrepreneur, and criticism may make you question your beliefs that you'll continue to be successful - which makes it hard to hear.)

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by TimGross

...OK, maybe that quote's not related at all, but I still like it. :-)

Tim, while the quote may or may not fit (still not quite sure myself) the
sentiment you shared after it was dead on the money.

Admitting when you're wrong is one of the hardest things in the world for
many people to do, especially when it calls their own "skills" into question.

Imagine if I were earning a living as a songwriter (my dream) and somebody
said to me, "Earning money or not, your songs are crap. They're self indulgent
and mindless drivel." And then they went on to totally analyze my writing and,
to my horror, I realize that, at least on an artistic level, they're right.

How would it affect my writing in the future?

Would I be able to continue to crank out one hit song after another
knowing that, at least artistically, I was creating crap?

And if I really worked on my art, would I end up writing better songs, or
would I find out that I wasn't good enough, talent wise, to write material
of substance, and ultimately end up trashing my whole career?

See what you started?

All kidding aside, it's a scary place...that little room where we have to come
to grips with the reality of what we're doing, especially when people who
"really" know what they're talking about give it to you straight.

Some people flat out can't handle it.

As a result, they'll just live in denial for the rest of their lives and argue
with every criticism or piece of advice they get.

I have known way too many of those people.

And it's not a pretty picture.

[R Hagel]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Admitting when you're wrong is one of the hardest things in the world for
many people to do, especially when it calls their own "skills" into question.

Yep, I'd agree with that. (And on a personal note, I've had to set aside the emotions before to really listen to what someone is telling me.)

Some folks get really defensive. Some folks just assume that anyone who doesn't agree is stupid. And some folks get scared to try certain things (or ask for feedback), because they're scared to find out that they might not be as good at it as they hoped to be.

[traces2757]

Funny, I was reading something just the other day about egos getting in the way of truly producing something of worth. This is a blog post from someone in the music business. I found it interesting, and I also found myself nodding my head a lot.

http://www.musicsoftwaretraining.com/blog/?p=215

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by traces2757

Funny, I was reading something just the other day about egos getting in the way of truly producing something of worth. This is a blog post from someone in the music business. I found it interesting, and I also found myself nodding my head a lot.

http://www.musicsoftwaretraining.com/blog/?p=215

Thanks for sharing this. As a musician, I found it to be one of the most
enjoyable articles on the subject that I've read in a long time.

I actually envy this person because I have, over the years, fallen into so
many of the traps he talks about...trying to make every song a piece of
musical perfection.

Maybe if I worked more on my talent (providing I have any) and less on
trying to be perfect, I might have actually gotten somewhere with my
music over the past 30 years.

I really gotta write this guy and tell him how much that bit of writing hit
home with me.

[traces2757]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Thanks for sharing this. As a musician, I found it to be one of the most
enjoyable articles on the subject that I've read in a long time.

I actually envy this person because I have, over the years, fallen into so
many of the traps he talks about...trying to make every song a piece of
musical perfection.

Maybe if I worked more on my talent (providing I have any) and less on
trying to be perfect, I might have actually gotten somewhere with my
music over the past 30 years.

I really gotta write this guy and tell him how much that bit of writing hit
home with me.

He'd appreciate you dropping him a note, Steve. By the way, he's my nephew, and also one of my favorite people! When he and I get together we can talk for hours. I love how he cuts to the chase about things.

[Paul Myers]

Tim,

If you believe yourself to be an expert at marketing/copywriting, you need the confidence of believing that you are very good at what you do. Not having that confidence could shatter your belief that you can continue to put food on your family's table through your talent and efforts, etc.

The answer to that is simple: Give up the idea of being an expert. At anything.

This is, by the way, one of the rarely mentioned reasons that truly experienced people so often reject the labels of "guru" and "expert." They know how much they don't know, and the risk that comes with becoming too certain of their correctness.

It's easy to fall into the trap you describe. Avoiding it is easy, too. Just choose to believe that you're good at what you do, maybe even great, but not perfect. That part can be tricky. Almost everyone will admit they're not perfect, but a lot of people will have trouble admitting they're mistaken on any given belief or statement.

To make that easier, shift your focus from who gets credit to what results are achieved. If you do that, it's easy to take honest advice and criticism well. You view it as an attempt to help, and you appreciate the value that help can bring.

The interesting thing is that this mindset makes you much less sensitive about how criticism is delivered. If you appreciate the benefit someone's advice could bring you, you tend to downplay the way they give that advice. You don't even have to make an effort at it. It just doesn't matter as much, because your focus is on the improved results.

I've said this, and things like it, a lot of times. I think it bears repeating here: Your cheerleaders make you confident, but it's your critics who make you deserve it.


Paul

[R Hagel]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I actually envy this person because I have, over the years, fallen into so
many of the traps he talks about...trying to make every song a piece of
musical perfection.

Check out "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron. It's about moving past those fears and getting "unblocked" as an artist.

Cheers,
Becky

[Heather Bestel]

Paul

This is a very timely post.

I've just arrived home from teaching on my Monday evening counselling course and we are wrangling with the subject of giving and receiving feedback.

My take on it is this:

When we can accept honest feedback while putting aside our own ego, the power of that information can propell us to great heights, be it in our self development or within business.

I have seen massive strides achieved by those prepared to listen to, accept and adopt constructive and valuable feedback.

For those of us wanting to develop, it can be an uncomfortable necessity.

When I receive feedback that makes me look at my work and feel discomfort, I know that I'm at the edge of my map and I'm about to push the boundaries and grow. It reminds me of a quote by Guillaume Apollinaire that goes like this..

"Come to the edge, he said.
They said: We are afraid.
Come to the edge, he said.
They came.
He pushed them ... and they flew."

Being open and receptive to feedback can be scary. But once we can get past that feeling and start to take risks by putting ourselves out there and asking for it, the discomfort starts to diminish and the rewards grow exponentially.

Many thanks for this post
Best wishes
Heather

[TimGross]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Tim,The answer to that is simple: Give up the idea of being an expert. At anything.

Perfectly said and I agree on all counts, Paul, and I think I'm pretty good at doing that.

Last year John Reese was asking for help on his blog with an SEO question of some kind... Somebody commented, snickering that they thought he was supposed to be the quote-unquote "expert" at everything. So it's not just yourself putting yourself in a box, and those types of comments could drive some people to stop even asking for help.

[ExRat]

Hi,

What a useful, great thread.

Many helpful responses from all of the posters.

I have nothing to add except thanks

[Peter Bestel]

Shameless bump just because it's such a good topic and deserves a bit more airing and possibly some more comments.

Peter

[Kevin Riley]

I'm disappointed. I thought this was going to be about Birchermuesli.