Doctor Gave Hallucinogenic Drug To Patients

12 years ago

Seems much adue about nothing. It's not dangerous and the patient seems to think it helped, so what's the brewhaha about? Wah, he needs to talk to US first? For cripes sakes, regulation is supposed to be about safety, not show of authority.

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thunderbird

12 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Seems much adue about nothing. It's not dangerous and the patient seems to think it helped, so what's the muff about?

I know someone who committed suicide shortly after taking that drug.

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ThomM

12 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I know someone who committed suicide shortly after taking that drug.

What about all the people who committed suicide and homicide taking prescribed antidepressants?
Suicides and Homicides in Patients taking Paxil, Prozac and Zoloft.

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KimW

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

What about all the people who committed suicide and homicide taking prescribed antidepressants?
Suicides and Homicides in Patients taking Paxil, Prozac and Zoloft.

I'm not sure of your point here so I don't know if I agree or disagree with you.
I think almost all the drugs just named should be completely taken off the market and banned. I also have known several people that have gone from being relatively normal individuals to suicidal after being prescribed some of the above listed drugs.
And yet they are stilled prescribed like candy every day. :rolleyes:

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JustVisiting

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

What about all the people who committed suicide and homicide taking prescribed antidepressants?
Suicides and Homicides in Patients taking Paxil, Prozac and Zoloft.

Without randomized, double-blind, cross-over, placebo-controlled studies; there is no way of knowing how many would have committed suicide anyway. Taking any drug can be dangerous, even aspirin.

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HeySal 12 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I know someone who committed suicide shortly after taking that drug.

What a coincidence. I know several people that committed suicide that never took ANY drugs.
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paintingsgalore22

12 years ago

Ive rad this article that a father killed her wife because of that drugs. . He thought that his wife is a monster trying to kill him. hahaha!

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Fernando Veloso

12 years ago

QFT:

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2006 that ayahuasca is legal for religious purposes. And the International Narcotics Control Board has ruled that ayahuasca is not considered a controlled substance under the UN’s drug-control treaties.

In 2006, a Health Canada study found no serious health hazards to using ayahuasca; instead, it reported health promotion and spiritual benefits.

It seems ayahuasca is good, so why all this mess?

/Confused/

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Kay King 12 years ago

so why all this mess

My guess is there is no big pharma making money by producing this drug...therefore the push is on to disallow any use of it.

Like it or not - that's how it works and it will get worse.

If you don't believe it - ask your doctor and your veterinarian what meds are in short supply these days. Surprise! It's the long time, well proven, lower cost medications that are "unavailable" while the horridly expensive new concoctions (still on patent) are "ready to go".

What is being done about it? Absolutely nothing.
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Dennis Gaskill

12 years ago

It's an interesting drug, not that I've used it, but I've heard plenty about it on talk radio. It's used by tribal shaman in some areas of the world as a way to contact the spirit world. Some also use it as a right of passage. One guy that tried said it made him violently sick to his stomach, but I suppose it may depend on how you use it. I'm probably far enough out of mind already that I don't need it.

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thunderbird

12 years ago

Hallucinogenic drug Ayahuasca does more harm than good and has destroyed more lives than it has helped (as is the case with any other hallucinogen). Asking if legal pharmaceuticals are good, bad, over-prescribed, used, or abused is beside the point.

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ThomM

12 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

Hallucinogenic drug Ayahuasca does more harm than good and has destroyed more lives than it has helped (as is the case with any other hallucinogen). Asking if legal pharmaceuticals are good, bad, over-prescribed, used, or abused is beside the point.

First, got any proof of your statement, or are we all suppose to just blindly believe it because you say so.
Second asking about legal drugs isn't beside the point. You made this statement.

I've heard of this drug. It is a powerful hallucinogen. It is incredible that a medical doctor would deliberately give a dangerous and completely unnecessary drug to patients that could do serious harm to their mental and physical health:

They do that with legal, dangerous drugs all the time.
I've showed proof of the legal drugs being dangerous, where's your proof that Ayahuasca is just as dangerous.

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thunderbird

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

First, got any proof of your statement, or are we all suppose to just blindly believe it because you say so.
Second asking about legal drugs isn't beside the point. You made this statement.

They do that with legal, dangerous drugs all the time.
I've showed proof of the legal drugs being dangerous, where's your proof that Ayahuasca is just as dangerous.

My proof is anecdotal having personally seen how it messed people up when I was living in South America. I think taking hallucinogens is foolish and dangerous and the culture that promotes it is deluded and ridden with fraud (eg the bogus and long discredited Carlos Castaneda). I am not commenting on Native ritualistic practices. Frankly, those people who try to parachute into Native culture are missing a lifetime of cultural and environmental development.

I never made statements in support of pharmaceutical industry. I abhor the abusive practices of the pharmaceutical industry and legal drug-pushing culture that favors hooking people on legal drugs for any and all ailments real or imagined. That said, two bads don't make a good.

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ThomM

12 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

My proof is anecdotal having personally seen how it messed people up when I was living in South America. I think taking hallucinogens is foolish and dangerous and the culture that promotes it is deluded and ridden with fraud (eg the bogus and long discredited Carlos Castaneda). I am not commenting on Native ritualistic practices. Frankly, those people who try to parachute into Native culture are missing a lifetime of cultural and environmental development.

I never made statements in support of pharmaceutical industry. I abhor the abusive practices of the pharmaceutical industry and legal drug-pushing culture that favors hooking people on legal drugs for any and all ailments real or imagined. That said, two bads don't make a good.

I understand all that, but it has been proven over and over that making something like this illegal does nothing to stop it's use.
I think what I bolded in your statement is exactly where the problems start.
Ayahuasca isn't any different from any other natural substance that can be abused. Used properly under the right conditions it can be very helpful. But when people abuse it, it becomes some evil nasty plant that wants to kill us all.
The plant or Ayahuasca aren't the bad guys, it's the people who misuse them that are the bad guys.
Be pissed at them, not Ayahuasca.

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thunderbird

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I understand all that, but it has been proven over and over that making something like this illegal does nothing to stop it's use.<snip>

I'd like to see all of it legalized, just to neuter the most murderous elements of organized crime, such as has been ravaging Mexico and border regions in the United States, and also here in Canada in my g**^&**n neighborhood.

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Daniel Evans

12 years ago

It's not incredible that a doctor prescribed it to a patient. It's just outside the box of expectations and level of personal indoctration which suggests that "legal" OTC / UTC pressed pills or caps are only viable to form a solution to treat an illness.

The ironic paradox is, if someone takes their thinking outside of the box (by such "drugs") then they have the ability to observe clearly the box that they were previously in.

The "drug" in question is a plant. Many plants and mushrooms can kill. This is a question of use or abuse. Olive oil can kill.

Psychadelics (inclusive of Ayahuasca) have huge positive potential.

In the same way that governments will slate these things - besides fabricating or skewing stories to fit their banning agendas, people need to fully understand these substances before they join a blind collective which so readily slates them.

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thunderbird

12 years ago

Originally Posted by webcore

It's not incredible that a doctor prescribed it to a patient. It's just outside the box of expectations and level of personal indoctration which suggests that "legal" OTC / UTC pressed pills or caps are only viable to form a solution to treat an illness.

The ironic paradox is, if someone takes their thinking outside of the box (by such "drugs") then they have the ability to observe clearly the box that they were previously in.

The "drug" in question is a plant. Many plants and mushrooms can kill. This is a question of use or abuse. Olive oil can kill.

Psychadelics (inclusive of Ayahuasca) have huge positive potential.

In the same way that governments will slate these things - besides fabricating or skewing stories to fit their banning agendas, people need to fully understand these substances before they join a blind collective which so readily slates them.

Messing with the brain through illicit psychedelic drugs (and ofttimes via prescribed legal drugs), its chemistry, and its biological functions is playing Russian roulette with one's mental health. It may be that most users aren't harmed by experimenting with them, but they may trigger schizophrenia in some people.

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Daniel Evans

12 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

Messing with the brain through illicit psychedelic drugs (and ofttimes via prescribed legal drugs), its chemistry, and its biological functions is playing Russian roulette with one's mental health. It may be that most users aren't harmed by experimenting with them, but they may trigger schizophrenia in some people.

The same could be said about MAOIs and beta blockers.

"Illicit" does not dictate the properties, nor potential of any substance.

It isn't a case of experimenting or otherwise. It's a case of use or abuse.

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thunderbird

12 years ago

Originally Posted by webcore

The same could be said about MAOIs and beta blockers.

"Illicit" does not dictate the properties, nor potential of any substance.

It isn't a case of experimenting or otherwise. It's a case of use or abuse.

For every Aldous Huxley or Steve Jobs, there are thousands more teens and young adults messed up by abuse of psychedelic drugs. I don't think most drug abusers started taking drugs with plans to abuse them. The drugs affected them and messed up their brain chemistry and, in turn, their self-control.

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clectric

12 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

For every Aldous Huxley or Steve Jobs, there are thousands more teens and young adults messed up by abuse of psychedelic drugs. I don't think most drug abusers started taking drugs with plans to abuse them. The drugs affected them and messed up their brain chemistry and, in turn, their self-control.

Or, maybe they just didn't have good self-control in the first place...

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thunderbird 12 years ago

Originally Posted by clectric

Or, maybe they just didn't have good self-control in the first place...

No, drugs can and do mess people's minds up all the time. You see, the brain's functions are largely based on chemistry.
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- HeySal 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by thunderbird
  
  No, drugs can and do mess people's minds up all the time. You see, the brain's functions are largely based on chemistry.
  
  That's true - but it's not just drugs. ANY substance can effect a person's mind or body - because as you say - everything works on one chemical reaction or another, whether it's a natural hormone in the blood or toxic crap in your air or water. I know people that can't take aspirin.
  
  Ya just have to weigh whether something is toxic to all people, some people, or very few and highly unlikely. Peanut butter can kill me, but it's still on store shelves.
  
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Daniel Evans

12 years ago

It's not a case of; take a dose in a single instance and you either come out the other end a genius or a nutbar. There's no immediate trigger from a sensible dose as most would believe.

Problems arise more often than not, from irresponsible people being ignorant to themselves by not learning from past experience and continuing to consume irresponsibly - related to either quantity or time - or both.

Irresponsible people could equally commit themselves to smoking and drinking - which they do, die from that twenty thousand times daily and still a plant sitting innocently in the Amazon would take more flack before someone even bats an eyelid.

We don't hear of deaths related to smoking and drinking because there's so much of it, people would become tired to death. The news itself would kill people.

Irresponsible people will always find something to dump their burden into. If they choose go stupid with psychedelics that's the potion they have chosen. They could equally plant their eggs into a bottle of whiskey and dampen their lives another way.

Sure there's accidents. There's allergic reactions, bad / stupid decisions made whilst under the influence but the dangers of psychedelics are maginified twentyfold shadowing more common, burning issues.

"Mind altering" shouldn't be as frightening as it sounds, because many people do need to have their minds altered.

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thunderbird

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Evans

It's not a case of; take a dose in a single instance and you either come out the other end a genius or a nutbar. <snip>

Sometimes it only takes a single dose to trigger schizophrenia in susceptible individuals or mess them up in other ways.

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ThomM

12 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

Sometimes it only takes a single dose to trigger schizophrenia in susceptible individuals or mess them up in other ways.

More people can do a single (or multiple) dose and not have it trigger schizophrenia. Why should I be denied my right to choose because someone else made a bad choice FOR THEM. I stopped needing a babysitter 50 years ago.

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thunderbird

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

More people can do a single (or multiple) dose and not have it trigger schizophrenia. Why should I be denied my right to choose because someone else made a bad choice FOR THEM. I stopped needing a babysitter 50 years ago.

I'm not suggesting that anyone be denied the right to access whatever drugs, medications, herbs, or voodoo elixirs they want. I'd like to see the killing in Mexico and the US that is caused by drug-dealing gangs to end. Legalizing that stuff, however one may personally feel about ingesting them, might be a way of devaluing it and therefore ending a lot of the drug-related gang violence.

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ThomM

12 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

I'm not sure of your point here so I don't know if I agree or disagree with you.
I think almost all the drugs just named should be completely taken off the market and banned. I also have known several people that have gone from being relatively normal individuals to suicidal after being prescribed some of the above listed drugs.
And yet they are stilled prescribed like candy every day. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by JustVisiting

Without randomized, double-blind, cross-over, placebo-controlled studies; there is no way of knowing how many would have committed suicide anyway. Taking any drug can be dangerous, even aspirin.

I'm gonna take a stab at this and say that was my point.
I think my point was using the argument to make a natural substance illegal because it may cause death is not a valid argument when so many legal drugs can do the same thing, like aspirin.

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KimW

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I'm gonna take a stab at this and say that was my point.
I think my point was using the argument to make a natural substance illegal because it may cause death is not a valid argument when so many legal drugs can do the same thing, like aspirin.

Ok, now I understand what you meant.

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seasoned

12 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

For every Aldous Huxley or Steve Jobs, there are thousands more teens and young adults messed up by abuse of psychedelic drugs. I don't think most drug abusers started taking drugs with plans to abuse them. The drugs affected them and messed up their brain chemistry and, in turn, their self-control.

Steve jobs WAS around steve wozniak a lot, and steve wozniak made their younger experience sound like it was filled with pranks clean humor, etc... And Wozniak DID talk about some illegal things like phreaking and blue boxes, and bad things like signal jamming, and embarassing stuff like polish jokes, and computers that blew up because they used second hand sub par parts. I doubt very much that they were like cheech and chong in their famous comedy acts.

Steve

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seasoned

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Evans

The ironic paradox is, if someone takes their thinking outside of the box (by such "drugs") then they have the ability to observe clearly the box that they were previously in.

It's not a paradox at all! They are often in a totally different place and can't see the box. They may not remember they were ever in another box, etc... They may question reality.

Steve

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seasoned

12 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

Hallucinogenic drug Ayahuasca does more harm than good and has destroyed more lives than it has helped (as is the case with any other hallucinogen). Asking if legal pharmaceuticals are good, bad, over-prescribed, used, or abused is beside the point.

Unless you are tied to a bed, and paralyzed, Hallucinogenic means there is a potential for disaster! Ever see final destination? In one case part of a hospital was BLOWN UP by things that could happen at ANY self respecting hospital ON THE PLANET. Just MINOR little things, like turning a valve and little a cigarette, and DISASTER! No wonder why they have those warnings, etc... Another happened because alcohol spilled onto an old fashioned gas stove. AGAIN, could happen ANYWHERE. Of course you can look at the darwin awards. And some of that is with NO Hallucinogens!

Steve

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LarryC

12 years ago

Ayhuasca can be effective at helping people get over addictions, especially cocaine. Of course, any drug can be abused and is potentially dangerous. But with natural substances such as this, there are also many potential benefits. One of the main reasons they want to suppress drugs like this is, of course, that there's no profit in them. But it's also that they don't want many people exploring alternative realities.

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John Rogers

12 years ago

Ayahuasca is not something to play around with. First you need the proper mixture of the plant medicine, and second you need someone who knows what the hell they're doing to guide and watch over you during the experience. Idiots who don't know what they're doing causing harm to themselves and/or others shouldn't discredit the medicine.

The two best films I've seen on the subject are:

DMT: The Spirit Molecule