Hyperinflation, is it possible here in the USA?

Banned 14 years ago

Sure, anything is possible.

But here's my guess:

In spite of the fear marketing engineered to benefit obvious purveyors, you can bet there's a lot of powerful people making deals behind the scenes for this NOT to happen.

But that's my heads or tails guess. And probably a more honest assessment than most pundits would offer, else what more could they say

Still, if spot price of silver drops below $20, I'll wait for $15 then buy. And alas join the ranks of the doomsayers now that I'm vested in it

Again too honest?

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DavidBateman 14 years ago

I am definitely concerned considering the ongoing devaluation of the dollar and the unbridled spending in Washington. "Kookie" as it may appear, my wife and I are busy preparing for hard times by stocking up on necessities and improving our gardening skills. We are even learning to dehydrate our garden vegetables for storage so we won't have to depend on refrigeration.

But, though we are preparing for hard times, we are hopeful the future won't be so dismal. All of our business efforts are directed to Internet efforts of which dooms-dayers assert won't even exist when the bottom falls out! I guess we are just conflicted. :confused:
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- myob 14 years ago
  
  Hyperinflation is highly unlikely anytime soon. Most investors, particularly in the bond markets, seem to be preparing for another round of recession much like 2008. Any number of external factors could be enough to trigger another slump.
  
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HeySal

14 years ago

Sure it's possible. Many very astute economists are predicting it is also likely. Who know what the hell the FED will do? We have some of the most whacked crap going on over here. Not too far of a stretch to see that one coming around the bend, too. We can hope to heck and back that we have enough people at the top that are still smart enough to prevent us from going into hyper-inflation - but when I go to fill my gas tank then go to the store for groceries and find both hiked several times in one week, I'm not trusting the situation at all. People keep saying things can't happen here -- and yet they keep happening here. You are going to hear hyper-inflation can't/won't happen until we are right in the middle of it. Then people will be asking "WTF" happened. SOS, different day.

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seasoned

14 years ago

You can NOT say it is not possible, because it has happened MANY places! GERMANY, MEXICO, USA, etc.... Hey, wait a second.... If it can happen in the USA, why can't it happen in the usa? Apparently it has happened there, ahem, HERE, 3 or so times all rady and that is NOT even including the steady rise of inflation over the past century.

Steve

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

You can NOT say it is not possible, because it has happened MANY places! GERMANY, MEXICO, USA, etc.... Hey, wait a second.... If it can happen in the USA, why can't it happen in the usa? Apparently it has happened there, ahem, HERE, 3 or so times all rady and that is NOT even including the steady rise of inflation over the past century.

Steve

I think that people won't recognize what's going on until it's as bad as Germany circa 1930's when they could barely buy a loaf of bread without being actually wealthy. Somehow people seem to miss stuff going on right under their noses in this country. Is it the psychotropic drugs?

Right now I'm more worried about losing our position as reserve currency than inflation anyhow.

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whateverpedia 14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Right now I'm more worried about losing our position as reserve currency than inflation anyhow.

When (note I didn't say if) that happens, the U.S. is screwed. The Greece of the Americas.
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- seasoned 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by whateverpedia
  
  When (note I didn't say if) that happens, the U.S. is screwed. The Greece of the Americas.
  
  It has ALREADY started! It is certainly the first time it has happened since WWII, and may be the first time since 1913! EACH move makes further moves more likely and easier. EACH reduces the value and increases the resources that the G8 need to counter it. The G8 now have their OWN problems, so they will be less interested in helping. BESIDES, THEY are getting "ORDERS" from the US that are NOT appropriate or desired, and they are tired of it and some have said as much. If asked to do much, they may laugh and say snidly, "But YOU said you had it under control and WE had to follow!?"
  
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Henry White

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

I think that people won't recognize what's going on until it's as bad as Germany circa 1930's when they could barely buy a loaf of bread without being actually wealthy. Somehow people seem to miss stuff going on right under their noses in this country. Is it the psychotropic drugs?

Right now I'm more worried about losing our position as reserve currency than inflation anyhow.

The worst of the Weimar Republic hyperinflation was 1922-1923 - which feed directly into the rise of Hitler and the Nazis, just as it has in most populations of poor, functionally illiterates throughout history. Without a basic knowledge of history, our species is easy prey for strongman-dictatorships to fill the role of messiah. You can blame that on our education establishment if you prefer, but we're all equally guilty because we have just accepted the decline for generations. (Remember now, as recently as our entry into WWII having a high school diploma was a BFD of the the first magnitude.

)

Stateside we had hyperinflation during the Revolutionary War and the Civil War when banks routinely printed their own money (presumably based on gold and silver in their vaults).

And, as always, it helps to keep in mind that our learned economists have predicted 47 of the previous two recessions.

We no longer have national economies, it's global, and what happens in/to Greece, Spain, etc. is likely to have more of an affect than any elected official in campaign mode is ever going to tell us mere voters.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Henry White

The worst of the Weimar Republic hyperinflation was 1922-1923 - which feed directly into the rise of Hitler and the Nazis, just as it has in most populations of poor, functionally illiterates throughout history. Without a basic knowledge of history, our species is easy prey for strongman-dictatorships to fill the role of messiah. You can blame that on our education establishment if you prefer, but we're all equally guilty because we have just accepted the decline for generations. (Remember now, as recently as our entry into WWII having a high school diploma was a BFD of the the first magnitude.

)

Well, Highschool back then WAS like a bachelors today. Perhaps BETTER! It IS hard to believe that hitler really got in, etc... But it was kind of in a back door, as I recall. MOST people were SCARED into feigning admiration.

Stateside we had hyperinflation during the Revolutionary War and the Civil War when banks routinely printed their own money (presumably based on gold and silver in their vaults).

And, as always, it helps to keep in mind that our learned economists have predicted 47 of the previous two recessions.

Put me in bernankes position, and I wouldn't have a hard time predicting such things EITHER! I STILL remember in 1999 how he went to congress and said the stockmarket was doing too well, and he wanted to raise rates.

We no longer have national economies, it's global, and what happens in/to Greece, Spain, etc. is likely to have more of an affect than any elected official in campaign mode is ever going to tell us mere voters.

It was global EVEN in the 1920s.

Steve

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ThomM

14 years ago

Well, Highschool back then WAS like a bachelors today. Perhaps BETTER! It IS hard to believe that hitler really got in, etc... But it was kind of in a back door, as I recall. MOST people were SCARED into feigning admiration.

IF what I read recently was true he got in because of the education system that was instituted in Germany in the early 1800's.

The Prussian philosopher Johann Gottlieb Fichte (1762-1814), described by many as a philosopher and a transcendental idealist, wrote "Addresses to the German Nation" between 1807 and 1808, which promoted the state as a necessary instrument of social and moral progress. He taught at the University of Berlin from 1810 to his death in 1814. His concept of the state and of the ultimate moral nature of society directly influenced both Von Schelling and Hegel, who took an similarly idealistic view.

Using the basic philosophy prescribing the "duties of the state", combined with John Locke's view (1690) that "children are a blank slate" and lessons from Rousseau on how to "write on the slate", Prussia established a three-tiered educational system that was considered "scientific" in nature. Work began in 1807 and the system was in place by 1819. An important part of the Prussian system was that it defined for the child what was to be learned, what was to be thought about, how long to think about it and when a child was to think of something else. Basically, it was a system of thought control, and it established a penchant in the psyche of the German elite that would later manifest itself into what we now refer to as mind control.

The educational system was divided into three groups. The elite of Prussian society were seen as comprising .5% of the society. Approximately 5.5% of the remaining children were sent to what was called realschulen, where they were partially taught to think. The remaining 94% went to volkschulen, where they were to learn "harmony, obdience, freedom from stressful thinking and how to follow orders." An important part of this new system was to break the link between reading and the young child, because a child who reads too well becomes knowledgable and independent from the system of instruction and is capable of finding out anything. In order to have an efficient policy-making class and a sub-class beneath it, you've got to remove the power of most people to make anything out of available information.

By the way, our education system is based on that one.http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-...ion-system.htm

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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

IF what I read recently was true he got in because of the education system that was instituted in Germany in the early 1800's.

Well, I was ACTUALLY talking about the US, with regard to the educational system.

By the way, our education system is based on that one.What is the Prussian Education System?

As for hegel? Well, there IS the hegelian dialectic!

Hitler used it a LOT. MAN could I say more here! KEEP IT IN MIND THOUGH!!!!!!! If enough people THINK about it, and QUESTION, QUESTION, ********QUESTION********! It will lose power! It has NEVER been stopped before, but there is always HOPE! Each step closer makes it easier for THEM! Each further attempt makes it harder for us. It is like an endless pack of rabid dogs. You can stop one, two, maybe a THOUSAND! ONE gets through, and you may have trouble.

Steve
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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

IF what I read recently was true he got in because of the education system that was instituted in Germany in the early 1800's.
By the way, our education system is based on that one.What is the Prussian Education System?

The Dept of Ed has a frightening structure. They spend thousands of your tax dollars on banquets for the teachers attending their classes. Their "classes" consist of teaching teachers how to deal with different personality types of children. You can deal with them on a psychological level and "program" them or you can drug them senseless.

Creative and extremely intelligent children are by nature disruptive, and are, by nature, leaders. So how does a regime reaching for fascist control react in building their future regime structure through these children? Pyschologically? Nadda. If they program them tightly to be subservient it will destroy their intellect, and they might want to be able to use that later. Drugs wear off when they stop giving them. If the child survives the drugging, their minds are fully functional once they are taken off the drug. There are other forms of programming that they use for parts of their training, (these kids don't respond all that great to slip programming) but they have to keep the creativity and intellect intact for later use. You can't run a regime with only rich and drooling. You need intellects and a creative class. So the disruptive kids are just given drugs.

The rest are, in the meantime of the drugged kid being subdued, are taught explicit obedience and reverence, and slip programmed to ensure continued oblivious servitude.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

The Dept of Ed has a frightening structure. They spend thousands of your tax dollars on banquets for the teachers attending their classes. Their "classes" consist of teaching teachers how to deal with different personality types of children. You can deal with them on a psychological level and "program" them or you can drug them senseless.

Time for ANOTHER little story! There IS such a thing as "personal distance". There were studies done around the time that I was a little kid, and the country that had the LARGEST personal distance, was the US! I believe they found it to be 3 feet.

ANYWAY, I once had a NEUROTIC spanish teacher. She thought she was PERFECT! I don't know if she could speak polish, but she said she could speak spanish and japanese better than any teacher or kid in the school. A number of teachers and kids WERE hispanic. SHE was polish. She claimed she spoke japanese because she was stationed in japan as an "army brat"(A term referring to an American child stationedwith a parent that works for the army)

One day, she invaded student's personal space. She was BLATENT about it. She then proudly declared that she "learned about this at a teacher's conference".

A few days later, she came in with the school principal, and they insisted that someone tell them who vandalized her car! HEY, no other teachers seemed to have a problem. They all parked on the school property. I don't know WHO did it, but I think I know WHY!

HEY, she ASKED for it!

Creative and extremely intelligent children are by nature disruptive, and are, by nature, leaders. So how does a regime reaching for fascist control react in building their future regime structure through these children? Pyschologically? Nadda. If they program them tightly to be subservient it will destroy their intellect, and they might want to be able to use that later. Drugs wear off when they stop giving them. If the child survives the drugging, their minds are fully functional once they are taken off the drug. There are other forms of programming that they use for parts of their training, (these kids don't respond all that great to slip programming) but they have to keep the creativity and intellect intact for later use. You can't run a regime with only rich and drooling. You need intellects and a creative class. So the disruptive kids are just given drugs.

The rest are, in the meantime of the drugged kid being subdued, are taught explicit obedience and reverence, and slip programmed to ensure continued oblivious servitude.

I'm a strong believer of the planet of the ape technique. They are well on their way. Some "creative" people aren't anything of the sort, and some that seem to not be creative ARE. You have to admit! Some of those apes were CREATIVE! Ever see the flintstones? CREATIVE!

Just today, I saw a "good samaritan" ambulance do some DUMB things. They slowed down traffic, could have caused accidents, and delayed care. But it reminded me of something. The REASON why they talk of "The good samaritan" is because of the parable. That parable talks about a person suffering openly. Neighboors, and even the temple elders IGNORE him. A SAMARITAN, who would be expected to SPIT on him, helps him out and pays for his care. So the ones EXPECTED to help don't, and the one expected to do anything BUT help helps! So he was a GOOD samaritan. Sometimes you really can't tell a book by its cover.

Steve

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Henry White

The worst of the Weimar Republic hyperinflation was 1922-1923 - which feed directly into the rise of Hitler and the Nazis, just as it has in most populations of poor, functionally illiterates throughout history. Without a basic knowledge of history, our species is easy prey for strongman-dictatorships to fill the role of messiah. You can blame that on our education establishment if you prefer, but we're all equally guilty because we have just accepted the decline for generations. (Remember now, as recently as our entry into WWII having a high school diploma was a BFD of the the first magnitude.

)

Stateside we had hyperinflation during the Revolutionary War and the Civil War when banks routinely printed their own money (presumably based on gold and silver in their vaults).

And, as always, it helps to keep in mind that our learned economists have predicted 47 of the previous two recessions.

We no longer have national economies, it's global, and what happens in/to Greece, Spain, etc. is likely to have more of an affect than any elected official in campaign mode is ever going to tell us mere voters.

I have to agree with you on all of this. However - it's astounding to me that we still have people alive (a lot of them) that were actually in WWII - and even with them screaming to put a stop to the take-over, people just drool at their TV's and accept fascism, wrongfully thinking they will be safe in a fascist society - or not even seeing it has crept in on them. Even with all the people that were freed from behind the Berlin Wall in 89 yelling their faces off that if we don't stop them now we are going to end up the same way - nobody is listening.

It's not often you hear anyone air-raid sirening about tinfoil anymore, there is a terribly huge amount of denial that our country could ever be taken over the same way Germany has. They took habeas corpus and when you point that out, you get shrugs or people asking "what's that"? What's that? That is the biggest joke question in a land that people automatically call "free" - and THAT is very purposeful that our educational system leaves that out of the education since the Dept of Ed took over. We learned it when I was in school. Now we have a gov that claims that it is their job to "socialize" the children, with the word "socialize" being substituted wrongly for "indoctrinate". Hopefully they have messed up that indoctrination just as badly as they mess up everything else they lay their hands on or our own neighbors are going to be a danger to us before too long. I do know that there used to be a page on the WH website urging people to squeal on neighbors if they didn't like the current admin. That was met with an outcry large enough for them to take it down -- but really - how many more hints does it take before reality sets in?

In a system of fiat currency -- hyperinflation is an intentional move and can be instituted at will when it suits the purpose of draining the public of their resources. If we see that here - we will also see troops on our streets shortly afterward.

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WhiteShoePrincess

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

You can NOT say it is not possible, because it has happened MANY places! GERMANY, MEXICO, USA, etc.... Hey, wait a second.... If it can happen in the USA, why can't it happen in the usa? Apparently it has happened there, ahem, HERE, 3 or so times all rady and that is NOT even including the steady rise of inflation over the past century.

Steve

Scary, but true.

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

I think that the OP just joined this month, has one post, and started a thread about about hyperinflation because he or she wanted exposure for the "silver bubble" in his or her signature. What do you think?

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

I think that the OP just joined this month, has one post, and started a thread about about hyperinflation because he or she wanted exposure for the "silver bubble" in his or her signature. What do you think?

Since none of us seems to have noticed that except you, I'd say they wasted their time.

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MissTerraK

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Since none of us seems to have noticed that except you, I'd say they wasted their time.

Haha!

And look, his/her sig has been removed by a mod, probably by our very own Paul.

I just love when drive-by's get train wrecked!

Terra

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WhiteShoePrincess

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

Haha!

And look, his/her sig has been removed by a mod, probably by our very own Paul.

I just love when drive-by's get train wrecked!

Terra

Lol I'm not a "drive-by". I'm not looking to make a quick buck. That link that was removed wasn't even my main source of income. I came here to browse for information and I'm staying.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by WhiteShoePrincess

Lol I'm not a "drive-by". I'm not looking to make a quick buck. That link that was removed wasn't even my main source of income. I came here to browse for information and I'm staying.

Just so you know people join here all the time and start posts related to their sig link just for the exposure. After you've been here a while you'll understand why we are so quick to jump to that conclusion.
You did the right thing taking your sig link out for this thread.
If I was trying to make money with my site, I'd take out the link in any threads I post to about gmo's.

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WhiteShoePrincess

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Just so you know people join here all the time and start posts related to their sig link just for the exposure. After you've been here a while you'll understand why we are so quick to jump to that conclusion.
You did the right thing taking your sig link out for this thread.
If I was trying to make money with my site, I'd take out the link in any threads I post to about gmo's.

Thanks! I guess since I am kind of a noobie at this I'll pick things up more with time. I'm not one to give anything worth while up right off the bat. This forum is a gold mine of information and if I keep digging and looking through posts I'm sure to find just the type of things I'm looking for.

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WhiteShoePrincess

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

I think that the OP just joined this month, has one post, and started a thread about about hyperinflation because he or she wanted exposure for the "silver bubble" in his or her signature. What do you think?

And I think you're full of crap. I'll take my link out of my signature if it makes you happy sir. I have multiple sources that bring in way more traffic than this site.

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by WhiteShoePrincess

And I think you're full of crap. I'll take my link out of my signature if it makes you happy sir. I have multiple sources that bring in way more traffic than this site.

Don't take it personal, it happens all the time around here. There are dozens of us that watch for these things. I just happened to be the one to see it this time. I'm not usually the first one, but it happens.

Copping an attitude like "you're full of crap" won't get you far around here though. You'll get a lot farther, and earn a lot more leeway, once we get to know you and you've shown yourself to be regular contributor.

If it wasn't me it would have been someone else, so when you said "I'm full of crap" you just said that about all the member moderators. Everyone here is a member moderator, it helps keep the forum clean and useful. Call it a lesson in the way this forum works and move on. It's a great place and we'd love it if you become an active member.

PS - I could have reported the post and it would have been deleted instead. Most of us have had posts or threads deleted. Life happens!

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WhiteShoePrincess

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Don't take it personal, it happens all the time around here. There are dozens of us that watch for these things. I just happened to be the one to see it this time. I'm not usually the first one, but it happens.

Coping an attitude like "you're full of crap" won't get you far around here though. You'll get a lot farther, and earn a lot more leeway, once we get to know you and you've shown yourself to be regular contributor.

If it wasn't me it would have been someone else, so when you said "I'm full of crap" you just said that about all the member moderators. Everyone here is a member moderator, but there are hundreds who are active. It helps keep the forum clean and useful. Call it a lesson in the way this forum works and move on. It's a great place and we'd love it if you become an active member.

PS - I could have reported the post and it would have been deleted instead. Most of us have had posts or threads deleted. Life happens!

Alright, you're not full of crap sorry about that. I do intend to stay because there are things that I believe I can add and say here that might add to the community. Don't worry these things don't include affiliate links of any sort, but I do tend to run on and on at the keyboard a bit.

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by WhiteShoePrincess

Alright, you're not full of crap sorry about that. I do intend to stay because there are things that I believe I can add and say here that might add to the community. Don't worry these things don't include affiliate links of any sort, but I do tend to run on and on at the keyboard a bit.

And on that note ... welcome to the Warrior Forum!

Don't worry about running on at the keyboard, we have lots of folks who do that. I get a little "runny" myself from time to time. :rolleyes:

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J50

14 years ago

The US can never repay it's debts, therefore it's only solution is to make the debt worthless by inflating it's own currency away.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by vn

The US can never repay it's debts, therefore it's only solution is to make the debt worthless by inflating it's own currency away.

I disagree.

It may take the next 30 years but the debt can be repaid.

We carried the WW2 debt for a long time before almost paying it off before we set off on another round of debt creation starting about 1980.

All The Best!!

TL

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J50

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I disagree.

It may take the next 30 years but the debt can be repaid.

We carried the WW2 debt for a long time before almost paying it off before we set off on another round of debt creation starting about 1980.

All The Best!!

TL

You can't repay debt with more debt, the only way to stop the system collapsing is to destroy value which is why every 10-50 years the ponzi scheme collapses and then it starts all over again.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by vn

You can't repay debt with more debt, the only way to stop the system collapsing is to destroy value which is why every 10-50 years the ponzi scheme collapses and then it starts all over again.

The U.S. economy is not some sort of ponzi scheme.

FYI, after WW2 the U.S. economy was the most powerful the world had ever seen and produced the first middle class nation in history with the highest standard of living.

That economy was based on productivity - not some ponzi scheme.

Like I mentioned earlier, by 1980 we had almost paid off the debt from WW2 but then we embarked on another round of debt creation which was unnecessary IMHO.

The national debt went from about 300 billion total to about 4 trill from 1980 until 1992.

Then we were in position to begin to pay off the debt from the early 1980's in the late 1990's which was about 4 1/2 trillion and it could have been paid off by somewhere about 2020 if we had stuck to the loose plan.

But in 2000, with a new admin we as a nation went on another round of debt creation when it was also not necessary IMHO.

The Key...

The key to paying off the national debt is an economy in which we have a federal gov budget surplus like we had in 1998, 1999 and 2000 or was it 1999, 2000 and 2001?

Until we fix this economy and get back to a surpluses we can't begin to address the subject of paying down our new debt.

All The Best!!

TL

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J50

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

The global economy is some sort of ponzi scheme.

Fixed that for you.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by vn

Fixed that for you.

Perhaps the ponzi scheme you refer to is the activity that naughty "financial institutions" engage in.

Back in 1929 those naughty activities helped crash the world economy.

About 80 years later, after rules were relaxed or abolished that had previously been in place to prevent them from harming the world economy,...

... they were once again allowed to play fast and loose with borrowed money and leverage and the result was another world crash.

Perhaps this is what you refer to.

All The Best!!

TL

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J50

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Perhaps the ponzi scheme you refer to is the activity that naughty "financial institutions" engage in.

Back in 1929 those naughty activities helped crash the world economy.

About 80 years later, after rules were relaxed or abolished that had previously been in place to prevent them from harming the world economy,...

... they were once again allowed to play fast and loose with borrowed money and leverage and the result was another world crash.

Perhaps this is what you refer to.

All The Best!!

TL

Nope still wrong, here's an hours and half's worth of economic lessons anybody can learn and understand.

It's a YouTube ID.

v=bFxvy9XyUtg

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Perhaps the ponzi scheme you refer to is the activity that naughty "financial institutions" engage in.

Back in 1929 those naughty activities helped crash the world economy.

About 80 years later, after rules were relaxed or abolished that had previously been in place to prevent them from harming the world economy,...

... they were once again allowed to play fast and loose with borrowed money and leverage and the result was another world crash.

Perhaps this is what you refer to.

All The Best!!

TL

The dollar ITSELF is a ponzi scheme! Most federal plans are ponzi schemes.

Steve

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WhiteShoePrincess 14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

The dollar ITSELF is a ponzi scheme! Most federal plans are ponzi schemes.

Steve

And that Ponzi scheme would end if we simply would end the Federal Reserve and hand the money creation powers back to the government!
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- seasoned 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by WhiteShoePrincess
  
  And that Ponzi scheme would end if we simply would end the Federal Reserve and hand the money creation powers back to the government!
  
  Wrong! "the fed" is controlled in part by the government. We need a domestic party that is, and hopefully ALWAYS be unswayed to control it. It CAN'T be a foreigner, and WHAT domestic person could be trusted? THAT is why we had the GOLD STANDARD!
  
  Steve
  
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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I disagree.

It may take the next 30 years but the debt can be repaid.

We carried the WW2 debt for a long time before almost paying it off before we set off on another round of debt creation starting about 1980.

All The Best!!

TL

"WE" did NOT carry the debt of WW2! THE US did! It was a VERY different country then! It became a POWERHOUSE! It started out as the pre legend charles atlas, and exited as the legend. STRONG DOLLAR! RESPECTED! TONS of NEW technology! LOTS of industry. ETC.... Today, that country DOES NOT EXIST! About 20 years ago it decided to drop everything like when superman went in that room as superman, and came out as a permanent clark kent.(I believe that was superman III) Can we SOMEHOW reverse it? MAYBE. I DOUBT it, but MAYBE! If we don't though, do NOT compare us to that US, because it is different.

HECK, just yesterday I spoke with a person at a company that has been around for almost 200 years. It helped BUILD a lot of the US. It is bigger now than ever. Even HE recognized that that company's future is not secure anymore. Companies, like TI and INTEL have practically GIVEN AWAY trade secrets to foreign lands. BOTH now have to fight HARDER to stay where they are. As an example, ONE company INTEL gave proprietary info to was a little known chip company that made some obscure processors. They weren't a threat AT ALL! The name of the company? "Advanced Micro Devices", better known as AMD. TODAY, they are intel's BIGGEST competitor in the CPU industry. Probably 80% of the CPU competitors INTEL had were because THEY assisted them! They managed to practically sue two out of existence. They threatened anotherr that just gave up. They TRIED to sue AMD but when they FINALLY won, AMD said "SO WHAT, we changed things already ANYWAY!"! Intel was left with no way to sue, and AMD has been fighting tooth and nail ever since.

Of course, there are foreign competitors ALSO, etc... TI sold technology to KOREAN companies.

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

OK VN.

I have heard of Social Security being a ponzi scheme but...

I have not heard of the world economy referred to as a ponzi scheme even on this forum.

All The Best!!

TL

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ThomM 14 years ago

Let's see it took 40 years to pay off the debt from WWII, but to compare that to today is ridiculous. First off we used real money then and didn't just print more when we needed it (increasing the debt like it does now).
In just the last 4 years our debt has gone from 9 trillion+ to over 15 trillion+, and counting. Seems we're going in the wrong direction if we're trying to pay off our debt, wouldn't you say?
The value of our dollar is based on the faith and credit of the federal government. With no budget and run away spending increasing our debt, I'd say we're boned. By the way after WWII we HAD a budget and we DIDN'T HAVE run away spending.
Whenever you print money that has no real value, you lower the perceived value of that money. In other words prices aren't going up, the value of our money is going down.
So is hyperinflation possible? It's only a matter of time and time is running out.
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WhiteShoePrincess

14 years ago

I'd probably be posting where I'm getting my news from but I'm too new to post links so I'll just say that RussiaToday on youtube is a good source to go to. You can also find the same news programs on FreeSpeechTv and the RT channel on television! If you want to know why I love rambling about and buying silver than you should look up a man known as Robert Kiyosaki and you'd know about him if you've ever heard of the "Rich Dad Poor Dad" Series.

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LegionNate

14 years ago

I think TLTheLiberator is missing the point that every dollar that enters circulation enters as a note of debt. Money enters by the government creating treasury bonds that are then bought by the Federal Reserve (not Federal, nor a reserve). The Fed then issues actually money for those in the form of electrons on a computer screen.

Those bonds need to be paid back to the Fed, but the problem is they are only for the amount of the principle, in order to pay back the interest as well more money will need to be created, which of course will come with its own interest that needs to be paid. That is why the money supply is ever-increasing, and so is inflation.

I know what TLTheLiberator is trying to say, because after WW2 we did make a valiant effort to get our debt down, but look for any graph of our debt and you'll see it never goes to zero... it simply cannot. Here's a graph from Wikipedia, who I think is always extremely generous toward our government, taking any stat they give or thing they say as absolute indisputable fact:

File

ublicly Held Federal Debt 1790-2009.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Debt never got to zero. More simply put, if I lent you $100, and that was all the money you could get (all money comes from the Fed, Federal Reseve notes), you might then owe me $105 at the end of the year, but that extra $5 doesn't exist, unless I create it then lend it to you, but then that new amount will have interest, which you won't have, so you'll have to borrow more from me, forever and ever until something drastic is changed.

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WhiteShoePrincess

14 years ago

Originally Posted by LegionNate

I think TLTheLiberator is missing the point that every dollar that enters circulation enters as a note of debt. Money enters by the government creating treasury bonds that are then bought by the Federal Reserve (not Federal, nor a reserve). The Fed then issues actually money for those in the form of electrons on a computer screen.

Those bonds need to be paid back to the Fed, but the problem is they are only for the amount of the principle, in order to pay back the interest as well more money will need to be created, which of course will come with its own interest that needs to be paid. That is why the money supply is ever-increasing, and so is inflation.

I know what TLTheLiberator is trying to say, because after WW2 we did make a valiant effort to get our debt down, but look for any graph of our debt and you'll see it never goes to zero... it simply cannot. Here's a graph from Wikipedia, who I think is always extremely generous toward our government, taking any stat they give or thing they say as absolute indisputable fact:

Debt never got to zero. More simply put, if I lent you $100, and that was all the money you could get (all money comes from the Fed, Federal Reseve notes), you might then owe me $105 at the end of the year, but that extra $5 doesn't exist, unless I create it then lend it to you, but then that new amount will have interest, which you won't have, so you'll have to borrow more from me, forever and ever until something drastic is changed.

Thank you, this is just the type of post this topic needs! The Federal Reserve is really a private bank and is no more federal than Federal Express!

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by LegionNate

I think TLTheLiberator is missing the point that every dollar that enters circulation enters as a note of debt. Money enters by the government creating treasury bonds that are then bought by the Federal Reserve (not Federal, nor a reserve). The Fed then issues actually money for those in the form of electrons on a computer screen.

Those bonds need to be paid back to the Fed, but the problem is they are only for the amount of the principle, in order to pay back the interest as well more money will need to be created, which of course will come with its own interest that needs to be paid. That is why the money supply is ever-increasing, and so is inflation.

I know what TLTheLiberator is trying to say, because after WW2 we did make a valiant effort to get our debt down, but look for any graph of our debt and you'll see it never goes to zero... it simply cannot. Here's a graph from Wikipedia, who I think is always extremely generous toward our government, taking any stat they give or thing they say as absolute indisputable fact:

File

ublicly Held Federal Debt 1790-2009.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Debt never got to zero. More simply put, if I lent you $100, and that was all the money you could get (all money comes from the Fed, Federal Reseve notes), you might then owe me $105 at the end of the year, but that extra $5 doesn't exist, unless I create it then lend it to you, but then that new amount will have interest, which you won't have, so you'll have to borrow more from me, forever and ever until something drastic is changed.

This is correct. The money system we have been forced into allows no way to pay down debt. The macro-economy has no resemblance to a household budget - doesn't work the same way at all.

Both the Gov and the FED knew that the debt could not be paid off. WE, and our land was used as collateral in a monstrous act against our sovereignty. They knew what they were doing and actually had contracted a date to dissolve the debt completely - which would have returned us to sovereignty. When that date got here - around 6 years ago, our country forfeited our sovereignty and continued the debt instead. Had the public known exactly what happened that year it's likely that we'd be back on metal backed money right now and one hell of a lot of people would be in jail.

With the FED in power - we have to pay off every bit of principle on that debt........which means that rights to every inch of land must be purchased back - if you have bought a home, it's most likely that you did not get forest, water, and mineral rights with that home - those are fed collateral and you must pay to have those rights if they are not outwardly offered in your contract. There's also a tab of around $135,000 on each "citizen". This is the secret of how the rich get away with things that everyone else cannot - they pay their way out of collateral-ship. It's a process colloquially known as "owning your strawman".

Go ahead and yell about tinfoil to me. I listened to that crap for 30 years before people realized I wasn't crazy when I said that the FED was a BANK not a branch of gov.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

This is correct. The money system we have been forced into allows no way to pay down debt. The macro-economy has no resemblance to a household budget - doesn't work the same way at all.

Both the Gov and the FED knew that the debt could not be paid off. WE, and our land was used as collateral in a monstrous act against our sovereignty. They knew what they were doing and actually had contracted a date to dissolve the debt completely - which would have returned us to sovereignty. When that date got here - around 6 years ago, our country forfeited our sovereignty and continued the debt instead. Had the public known exactly what happened that year it's likely that we'd be back on metal backed money right now and one hell of a lot of people would be in jail.

With the FED in power - we have to pay off every bit of principle on that debt........which means that rights to every inch of land must be purchased back - if you have bought a home, it's most likely that you did not get forest, water, and mineral rights with that home - those are fed collateral and you must pay to have those rights if they are not outwardly offered in your contract. There's also a tab of around $135,000 on each "citizen". This is the secret of how the rich get away with things that everyone else cannot - they pay their way out of collateral-ship. It's a process colloquially known as "owning your strawman".

Go ahead and yell about tinfoil to me. I listened to that crap for 30 years before people realized I wasn't crazy when I said that the FED was a BANK not a branch of gov.

Nothing personal but,

The only thing above that is not tin foil is the part about the fed not being a part of the fed gov.

All The Best!!

TL

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SimplyComplex

14 years ago

Hyperinflation is NOT possible in the US. Reason being we own too large a share of the world's wealth. We make up close to 2/3 of the world's out of country financial transactions and foreign exchange reserves. When I say it's literally not possible here, I mean it's literally not possible. Anyone who says it is, probably voted for Ron Paul and is immune to facts about fiat currency.

Something else most people don't understand is that debt is presently used as a form of national accounting. About 1/3 of our "debt" is money the federal reserve owes to itself. Another 1/3 is owned by American bond holders. Only 1/3 is foreign debt.

Anyone suggesting we plow through austerity as Europe just tried and failed to do has no understanding of economics or debt. Austerity brings economic contraction AND more debt. It's not like we don't have a hundred+ years of economic data to back this up. Yet every time the confidence fairies come around and swear that *this* time things will totally be different.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SimplyComplex

Hyperinflation is NOT possible in the US. Reason being we own too large a share of the world's wealth.

WRONG! And WHO is "us" anyway? If the money is devalued, WHAT do we really have? Some REALLY big countries outsource over 80% of their production, assets, etc... in people ALONE to temporary residents, or complete foreign nationals. And a lot of DOMESTIC people are foreign born and would move over if the dollar collapsed. SO, excluding stock, bonds, dollars, and domestic property and assets selling primarily the same or to people in the same, how much do YOU have in assets?

We make up close to 2/3 of the world's out of country financial transactions and foreign exchange reserves. When I say it's literally not possible here, I mean it's literally not possible. Anyone who says it is, probably voted for Ron Paul and is immune to facts about fiat currency.

WRONG! It is a MINISCULE part. MOST stocks, bonds, futures, etc... are LOCAL! If the country failed, they likely would TOO. The SAME thing has happened here before, and happens ELSEWHERE!

Something else most people don't understand is that debt is presently used as a form of national accounting. About 1/3 of our "debt" is money the federal reserve owes to itself. Another 1/3 is owned by American bond holders. Only 1/3 is foreign debt.

OH, OK! You are saying that our economy is strong because it is so weak that it can't sell all of it's debt, and we can just ignore another 1/3rd because they happen to live here!

Anyone suggesting we plow through austerity as Europe just tried and failed to do has no understanding of economics or debt. Austerity brings economic contraction AND more debt. It's not like we don't have a hundred+ years of economic data to back this up. Yet every time the confidence fairies come around and swear that *this* time things will totally be different.

Have you been following Greece and Germany? GREECE ignored austerity, and is tipping. They are in serious trouble. Germany is cutting back, and doing better. If greece goes TO far, they will move to a nearly worthless drachma. If Germany gets upset, they will move to the stronger Mark!

I would REALLY like to take you up on your offer. Why don't you pay me a few billion, and let's see how we do.

Steve

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SimplyComplex

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

WRONG! And WHO is "us" anyway? If the money is devalued, WHAT do we really have?

This could be asked of the US post austerity. There is no reason or to a large extent ability to devalue the dollar. The dollar is the world currency and with the collapse of the Euro, it's as important as at any time in the past. What would replace the dollar? The Yuan? There is nothing else.

Originally Posted by seasoned

WRONG! It is a MINISCULE part. MOST stocks, bonds, futures, etc... are LOCAL! If the country failed, they likely would TOO. The SAME thing has happened here before, and happens ELSEWHERE!

You don't seem to realize that America plays by a different set of rules than Zimbabwe. Everyone has to trade with us. No one needs to trade with Zimbabwe. Everyone uses our currency. All of the currencies in the world combined represent a smaller portion of trade than the dollar.

Originally Posted by seasoned

OH, OK! You are saying that our economy is strong because it is so weak that it can't sell all of it's debt, and we can just ignore another 1/3rd because they happen to live here!

Uh, we actually can't sell debt fast enough. There is greater demand for US treasury bonds than are made available. Foreigners want to buy up our debt, but American demand is ever greater

There is presently a twenty year peak in demand for US bonds.

Originally Posted by seasoned

Have you been following Greece and Germany? GREECE ignored austerity, and is tipping. They are in serious trouble. Germany is cutting back, and doing better. If greece goes TO far, they will move to a nearly worthless drachma. If Germany gets upset, they will move to the stronger Mark!

I think you've been "following" both of them via Fox News. The IMF has already admitted that austerity in Europe was just a big a mistake this time as every other time. Greece has dived head first into austerity and has the wounds to demonstrate it. So has Ireland. So has Spain. Germany has not done anything near that and that's why it's in so-so condition.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Here's some useful links regarding hyperinflation, the fed, the debt, printing money etc...

Here's an excellent article about why hyperinflation in the US is very unlikely:
Ellen Brown: Is QE2 the Road to Zimbabwe-style Hyperinflation? Not Likely

Moreover, adding money to the money supply cannot hurt the economy when the money supply is shrinking, as it is now. Most money today consists simply of bank credit, and bank credit is shrinking because banks are deleveraging. Bad debts are wiping out capital, which wipes out lending capacity. QE2 is just an attempt to fill the empty liquidity pitcher back up -- and a rather feeble attempt at that. Financial commentator Charles Hugh Smith estimates that the economy now faces $15 trillion in writedowns in collateral and credit, based on projections from the latest Fed Flow of Funds (September 17, 2010). Based on his projections, it might be argued that the Fed could print enough money to refinance the entire federal debt without creating price inflation.

There is no reason that the Fed can't just buy this debt (as it is largely doing) and hold it indefinitely. If the Fed holds the debt, there is no interest burden for future taxpayers. The Fed refunds its interest earnings to the Treasury every year. Last year the Fed refunded almost $80 billion in interest to the Treasury, nearly 40 percent of the country's net interest burden. And the Fed has other tools to ensure that the expansion of the monetary base required to purchase the debt does not lead to inflation.

This means that the country really has no near-term or even mid-term deficit problem. The current deficit is a positive. In fact, if it were larger we would have more jobs and growth. Furthermore, there is no reason that the debt being accumulated at present should pose any interest burden on future generations. In this vein, it is worth noting that Japan's central bank holds debt amounting to almost 100 percent of that country's GDP. As a result, Japan's interest burden is considerably smaller than the United States's, even though Japan's debt is almost four times as large relative to the size of its economy.

If the Fed were to follow the lead of Japan and hold federal debt equal to the country's gross domestic product, the Fed would be holding $14.75 trillion in federal securities, enough to refinance the entire U.S. federal debt of $13.8 trillion virtually interest-free.

Here's a great article about a lot of the doom and gloom myths regarding the US economy:

Debunking Myths of a U.S. Monetary Collapse - Seeking Alpha

"Paper Dollars Are Worthless and Backed By Nothing"

A company that takes resources which have been given freely to us by God, converting them into something useful and productive, is worth more than gold. Gold is a store of value, but it does not create wealth just as paper dollars do not create wealth. Oil, lumber and coal, by themselves, are worthless too. While oil is useless by itself, when a company like Exxon Mobil (XOM) or Chevron (CVX) figures out a way to take this free and useless commodity out of the ground and turn it into gasoline, they in turn have created wealth by making something that was useless, useful. Modern day alchemy at work. Investors reading this can feel confident investing in these types of companies, knowing that all money flows to them eventually. Any company that makes something out of nothing is a wealth creator. Your only job is to figure out what price you are willing to pay for the profits the company generates.

So like oil, dollars by themselves are worthless until an event takes place creating demand. The event that causes worthless oil to be in demand is when a company turns it into gasoline. The event that causes worthless paper dollars to be in demand is the prosecution process for failing to pay taxes.

"Printing Money Will Cause the US Dollar to Lose Reserve-Currency Status"

The US economy is still the biggest in the world by a large margin. The military, which we are not afraid to use, is the most powerful. Until another country holds title to either one of these claims, our reserve currency status will likely remain intact. While it feels as if China will surpass us soon as they maintain their rapid growth, they are still many trillions of dollars in GDP away. Think about this - if the US is the world's largest customer, and China has become richer by selling to us, is China really going to tell us which currency we can spend? Don't we dictate what currency we are willing to give them? Who is truly in charge? If China stops accepting dollars, could we not easily find a group of other nations to do business with? Would us dumping China as a business partner not cause other nations to line up to take China's place? Would any of these other nations refuse to do business with us in US Dollars?

Until China or another country surpasses us as the world's largest economy or strongest military, loss of our reserve currency status is not imminent, as sellers of fear would like you to believe.

"Printing Money Does Not Create Wealth"

But to argue that government spending is all a waste and the money spent ends up being vaporized, is wrong. Government spending, even wasteful spending, is someone's income. Food stamps become the income of Safeway and Albertson's. Employees who work there get paychecks, and the shareholders get dividends. That money ends up being spent as well. Again, not fair to some who are productive, but also not a waste. If you run a productive business, chances are you too have received some of this "stimulus" money.

I've posted this a few times. Here are myths about the federal reserve:

PublicEye.org - The Website of Political Research Associates

Facts: Yes, the Federal Reserve banks are privately owned, but they are controlled by the publically-appointed Board of Governors. The Federal Reserve banks merely execute the monetary policy choices made by the Board. In addition, nearly all the interest the Federal Reserve collects on government bonds is rebated to the Treasury each year, so the government does not pay any net interest to the Fed.

Facts: No foreigners own any part of the Fed. Each Federal Reserve bank is owned exclusively by the participating commercial banks and S&Ls operating within the Federal Reserve bank's district. Individuals and non-bank firms, be they foreign or domestic, are not permitted by law to own any shares of a Federal Reserve bank. Moreover, monetary policy is controlled by the publically-appointed Board of Governors, not by the Federal Reserve banks....

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SimplyComplex

This could be asked of the US post austerity. There is no reason or to a large extent ability to devalue the dollar. The dollar is the world currency and with the collapse of the Euro, it's as important as at any time in the past. What would replace the dollar? The Yuan? There is nothing else.

How can you claim that such a thing couldn't happen when it is NOW?

You don't seem to realize that America plays by a different set of rules than Zimbabwe. Everyone has to trade with us. No one needs to trade with Zimbabwe. Everyone uses our currency.

Not everyone uses it, And WHY do they have to trade with the US? OH YEAH, we DO have like 90% of the worlds popcorn. But SERIOUSLY! The US can't even sustain ITSELF anymore! Ever look at packs of beef jerky? nuts? clothes? ICs? etc...? Almost all of it is NOT made in the US! Check it out! Go into a corporation sometime, and see how few americans are there. One of the most respected capacitor companies was in Illinois US! NOW, it is in JAPAN!

All of the currencies in the world combined represent a smaller portion of trade than the dollar.

The highest I remember hearing was 55%, but that was PURCHASING! Of course, things are worse now.

Uh, we actually can't sell debt fast enough. There is greater demand for US treasury bonds than are made available. Foreigners want to buy up our debt, but American demand is ever greater

There is presently a twenty year peak in demand for US bonds.

Well, they ARE doing the twist, etc... Which artificially drives the volume of debt up. It REDUCES available cash though.

I think you've been "following" both of them via Fox News. The IMF has already admitted that austerity in Europe was just a big a mistake this time as every other time. Greece has dived head first into austerity and has the wounds to demonstrate it. So has Ireland. So has Spain. Germany has not done anything near that and that's why it's in so-so condition.

So all the claims of civil unrest and dropping values, etc... that were on practically EVERY news program(Some are very much AGAINST FOX) were not true?

HERE is an AUSTRALIAN website talking about it! Travel Advice for Greece - Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade

NOTE, it is from the australian GOVERNMENT! You're saying THEY are lying?

How about THIS next one? RT is VERY anti FOX. Typically, you can predict what they will say by reversing what FOX says. They couldn't figure out how to put a good spin on THIS!

Greek riots & street battles - Athens...

Oh well, YOU could check out the around 2 million sites google came up with.

This is NOT because of racism, hiring practices, etc.... It is because of the drop in their purchasing power, loss of pension value, and bankruptcies.

Steve

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SimplyComplex

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

How can you claim that such a thing couldn't happen when it is NOW?

The dollar is still trading fairly high against other currencies. Quite frankly, the dollar is too strong right now. If it had been weaker a year ago, we'd probably be at %4-5 growth due to exports.

Originally Posted by seasoned

Not everyone uses it, And WHY do they have to trade with the US? OH YEAH, we DO have like 90% of the worlds popcorn. But SERIOUSLY! The US can't even sustain ITSELF anymore! Ever look at packs of beef jerky? nuts? clothes? ICs? etc...? Almost all of it is NOT made in the US! Check it out! Go into a corporation sometime, and see how few americans are there. One of the most respected capacitor companies was in Illinois US! NOW, it is in JAPAN!

We have a global capitalist system. Just like in day to day capitalism, it isn't the person who works hardest or is even the most innovative who prospers. It's the person who can best play the game. Which basically comes down to branding and marketing.

Why is America in it's position? We're good at playing the game, and cooler than everyone else

No one wants to be China. China is not cool. Until someone steals our mojo, we're king

The only way we lose our place is if we give it up. It's a status thing. When you go into meltdown mode, you make us all look worse. If you succeed in convincing the world we're not the top dog anymore, we're in a world of trouble we can't work our way out of. Don't blow this for us, okay?

Originally Posted by seasoned

So all the claims of civil unrest and dropping values, etc... that were on practically EVERY news program(Some are very much AGAINST FOX) were not true?

The media in general has been pushing austerity. They aren't economists. But yes, Fox is the worst of the lot. Whereas CNN or ABC at least bothered to report the IMF admits austerity is the thing which caused these problems(not the debt, but how it was handled). Fox ignores it. And even claims the problems right now are due to too much debt, which is laughable.

Iceland had just as much debt as Greece. Iceland told the banks to get lost. No riots. No austerity. Greece actually did spend too much money. But the problems there are not because of debt. It's due to how they handled it.

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whateverpedia

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SimplyComplex

Why is America in it's position? We're good at playing the game, and cooler than everyone else

No one wants to be China. China is not cool. Until someone steals our mojo, we're king

Once upon a time, Brittania ruled the waves. They "invented" the Industrial Revolution. They were the most powerful nation on Earth. They had the biggest economy the world had ever known. They were cooler than every other nation. They did capitalism better than anyone else. No-one thought that Britain would ever lose its mojo, especially not to an upstart emerging economy like America.

Even the defeat of the British in the American Revolution didn't put too much of a dent in the British Empire, as the newly formed nation had to have a market into which to sell its goods. Britain made more money from engaging in free trade with the new nation than it did from holding it as a colony.

A couple of disastrous and enormously expensive wars, and all of a sudden the upstart emerging economy had stolen Britain's mojo. This new wunderkind then did what Britain did, but better, and became the most powerful nation on Earth.

Now America has had a couple of disastrous and enormously expensive wars......

History works in cycles, and it does repeat itself. The only thing different this time, is it's Americans rather than British who believe they will remain at the top of the tree forever. Americans believe in Manifest Destiny in the same way that Brits thought the sun would never set on the British Empire.

America may remain at the top of the tree for the duration of our lifetimes and beyond, after all the British Empire lasted from the defeat of the Spanish Armada until World War I.

At some point in history though it will be replaced. The only question is which nation will take its place, and whether that change will happen peacefully, or as a result of conflict.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Yes, it will happen eventually. Which country? I'm pulling for Jamaica. They have great beaches, strong pot, cool accents, beautiful women, reggae music and besides, I like rooting for the underdog.

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

At some point in history though it will be replaced. The only question is which nation will take its place, and whether that change will happen peacefully or as a result of conflict.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Yes, it will happen eventually. Which country? I'm pulling for Jamaica. They have great beaches, strong pot, cool accents, beautiful women, reggae music and besides, I like rooting for the underdog.

You forgot the great food

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

Once upon a time, Brittania ruled the waves. They "invented" the Industrial Revolution. They were the most powerful nation on Earth. They had the biggest economy the world had ever known. They were cooler than every other nation. They did capitalism better than anyone else. No-one thought that Britain would ever lose its mojo, especially not to an upstart emerging economy like America.

Even the defeat of the British in the American Revolution didn't put too much of a dent in the British Empire, as the newly formed nation had to have a market into which to sell its goods. Britain made more money from engaging in free trade with the new nation than it did from holding it as a colony.

A couple of disastrous and enormously expensive wars, and all of a sudden the upstart emerging economy had stolen Britain's mojo. This new wunderkind then did what Britain did, but better, and became the most powerful nation on Earth.

Now America has had a couple of disastrous and enormously expensive wars......

History works in cycles, and it does repeat itself. The only thing different this time, is it's Americans rather than British who believe they will remain at the top of the tree forever. Americans believe in Manifest Destiny in the same way that Brits thought the sun would never set on the British Empire.

America may remain at the top of the tree for the duration of our lifetimes and beyond, after all the British Empire lasted from the defeat of the Spanish Armada until World War I.

At some point in history though it will be replaced. The only question is which nation will take its place, and whether that change will happen peacefully, or as a result of conflict.

I hear the rumors of the cycles of history.

But Britain was eclipsed by the US because the US became much bigger, has more resources, has a lot more people, developed our industrial capacities and easily have much more economic activity...

... not because of some historic cycle.

Having said that, China or even India are the only national economies that can rival the US since they have lots more people.

One day we may not be the dominate economic force on the planet but that also does not mean the American standard of living has to go into a deep and permanent nose dive.

TL

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whateverpedia

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I hear the rumors of the cycles of history.

But Britain was eclipsed by the US because the US became much bigger, has more resources, has a lot more people, developed our industrial capacities and easily have much more economic activity...TL

Britain still had access to it's Empire's (Canada, Australia, India, etc.) resources, and it was by far the most industrialised nation in the world.

What it didn't have which America did, was an internal market to sell to. Britain, with a smaller population had to rely on exporting its finished goods (made from materials/resources from Canada, Australia, India, etc.) to other nations.

One of the reasons for America's success was it was importing labour, ie an immigrant population, where people from Britain were leaving to go to developing parts of the world (America, Canada, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, etc.).

In other words, America's internal market was growing, whereas Britain's was shrinking.

One of the benefits of a developing economy is it raises most of its population out of poverty.

The Industrial Revolution raised the living standards of the British population to a point where even if they weren't rich, the people were still fairly well off. The same thing happened in America as it industrialised. The poor became less poor, and were able to maintain a decent standard of living. In other words, a middle class was formed.

Tomorrow's giants (probably China, India, Indonesia, Brazil) all have huge labour pools they can tap into as they become more industrialised. As the standard of living rises for the majority, a middle class will develop there, which also encompasses the majority of the population.

A booming, strong nation is one where the vast majority of its people fall somewhere in the middle class range.

When the middle class starts to erode, the nations where it is happening will start to decline economically.

As was pointed out in another thread, the middle class is where economic power (including job creation) springs from, not from the 1 per centers.

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derekwong28

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Having said that, China or even India are the only national economies that can rival the US since they have lots more people.

This is the key here. China had probably been the largest economy in the world for 18 out of the last 20 centuries and so this is nothing special for them if they do become the largest economy in the world again. But it may be very short lived this time because the demographic trends are completely against them. Their one child policy, male-female imbalance, and rapidly dropping fertility rate means that their population is going to implode very soon. These are the UN estimates for the most populous countries in 2100

World’s Most Populated Countries in 2100 - Business Opportunities Weblog

India - 1,557,468,000
China - 944,380,000
Nigeria - 756,007,000
United States - 478,047,000
Tanzania - 314,197,000
Pakistan - 262,149,000
Indonesia - 254,590,000
Democratic Republic of the Congo - 212,000,000
Philippines - 178,256,000
Brazil - 178,134,000

Talk about a radical change from today

China - 1,341,335,000
India - 1,224,614,000
United States - 310,384,000
Indonesia - 239,781,000
Brazil - 194,946,000
Pakistan - 173,593,000
Nigeria - 158,423,000
Bangladesh - 148,692,000
Russia - 142,958,000
Japan - 126,536,000

Well before that point, China will probably be straining badly with an ageing population like Japan today.

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by derekwong28

This is the key here. China had probably been the largest economy in the world for 18 out of the last 20 centuries and so this is nothing special for them if they do become the largest economy in the world again. But it may be very short lived this time because the demographic trends are completely against them. Their one child policy, male-female imbalance, and rapidly dropping fertility rate means that their population is going to implode very soon. These are the UN estimates for the most populous countries in 2100

World's Most Populated Countries in 2100 - Business Opportunities Weblog

India - 1,557,468,000
China - 944,380,000
Nigeria - 756,007,000
United States - 478,047,000
Tanzania - 314,197,000
Pakistan - 262,149,000
Indonesia - 254,590,000
Democratic Republic of the Congo - 212,000,000
Philippines - 178,256,000
Brazil - 178,134,000

Talk about a radical change from today

China - 1,341,335,000
India - 1,224,614,000
United States - 310,384,000
Indonesia - 239,781,000
Brazil - 194,946,000
Pakistan - 173,593,000
Nigeria - 158,423,000
Bangladesh - 148,692,000
Russia - 142,958,000
Japan - 126,536,000

Well before that point, China will probably be straining badly with an ageing population like Japan today.

You are overlooking one very important issue when you are figuring population numbers. The numbers can only become so large before they push the nation over carrying capacity.....and when that happens, the population strips itself of its resources. What we see in 3rd world countries right now is that the people live only because of support from other nations. What happens when a supporting nation grows beyond its own carrying capacity? It will collapse - if nobody can pick up supporting that country, the people will plummet into poverty - they will take the countries they no longer support with them. It's a chain reaction.

We like to think of each country as exclusive - and at some points each is. However - as in every other area of nature, a symbiosis has to be maintained at all points.

China is not going to suffer for its population restrictions. The restriction is in place because the country is so far beyond carrying capacity that if they were shut off in a cold war, that population is done. They can't survive cut off with that many people to support. The land in China is desertificating very rapidly now. Their land physically would not support an increase. When you start a 0 population growth policy - it takes generations for the population to actually stop growing and start falling. That country was at the point of setting off a worldwide chain reaction that we never want to see the likes of.

When you talk about the economy, you must remember that the natural planet is just as much a consideration as economics. A failure of the natural system will take the economics down with it no matter how solid it had appeared and acted. And the Natural system is failing there.

Earth is ecosystems - humans have to be able to survive within their ecosystems or their financial systems are a totally moot point.

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derekwong28

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

You are overlooking one very important issue when you are figuring population numbers. The numbers can only become so large before they push the nation over carrying capacity.....and when that happens, the population strips itself of its resources. What we see in 3rd world countries right now is that the people live only because of support from other nations. What happens when a supporting nation grows beyond its own carrying capacity? It will collapse - if nobody can pick up supporting that country, the people will plummet into poverty - they will take the countries they no longer support with them. It's a chain reaction.

We like to think of each country as exclusive - and at some points each is. However - as in every other area of nature, a symbiosis has to be maintained at all points.

China is not going to suffer for its population restrictions. The restriction is in place because the country is so far beyond carrying capacity that if they were shut off in a cold war, that population is done. They can't survive cut off with that many people to support. The land in China is desertificating very rapidly now. Their land physically would not support an increase. When you start a 0 population growth policy - it takes generations for the population to actually stop growing and start falling. That country was at the point of setting off a worldwide chain reaction that we never want to see the likes of.

When you talk about the economy, you must remember that the natural planet is just as much a consideration as economics. A failure of the natural system will take the economics down with it no matter how solid it had appeared and acted. And the Natural system is failing there.

Earth is ecosystems - humans have to be able to survive within their ecosystems or their financial systems are a totally moot point.

I don't think there is any dispute that vigorous population control was needed in China at that time. But the question was whether it should go beyond to the stage where human rights are trampled on such as forced late term abortions. This is still happening in some parts of China now whereas in some cities, there are actually incentives for couple to have a second child.

You have also got to remember that the ability to produce food per area is much greater now than then. I don't think anyone takes the threat of a cold war seriously. For a start, China is a net exporter of food and has never depended on other countries for food. Also, the chances of getting 14 bordering countries to that depend greatly on China for trade to cooperate in a blockade is next to zero. However if a large famine occurs, not even the rest of the world put together can help China.

Coming back to the topic. If the US prints money to the same extent Zimbabwe, then hyperinflation is bound to occur whether the US dollar is the reserve currency or not. For one, there is many more dollars circulating in the US than outside the US. But the chances are that it won't happen because of domestic and international pressure.

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WhiteShoePrincess

14 years ago

Originally Posted by derekwong28

This is the key here. China had probably been the largest economy in the world for 18 out of the last 20 centuries and so this is nothing special for them if they do become the largest economy in the world again. But it may be very short lived this time because the demographic trends are completely against them. Their one child policy, male-female imbalance, and rapidly dropping fertility rate means that their population is going to implode very soon. These are the UN estimates for the most populous countries in 2100

India - 1,557,468,000
China - 944,380,000
Nigeria - 756,007,000
United States - 478,047,000
Tanzania - 314,197,000
Pakistan - 262,149,000
Indonesia - 254,590,000
Democratic Republic of the Congo - 212,000,000
Philippines - 178,256,000
Brazil - 178,134,000

Talk about a radical change from today

China - 1,341,335,000
India - 1,224,614,000
United States - 310,384,000
Indonesia - 239,781,000
Brazil - 194,946,000
Pakistan - 173,593,000
Nigeria - 158,423,000
Bangladesh - 148,692,000
Russia - 142,958,000
Japan - 126,536,000

Well before that point, China will probably be straining badly with an ageing population like Japan today.

So India could dominate China. They have a larger hoard of gold then China plus a lack of one child policy. The whole Monsanto farmer suicide thing there kind of makes me wonder about that though.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by WhiteShoePrincess

So India could dominate China. They have a larger hoard of gold then China plus a lack of one child policy. The whole Monsanto farmer suicide thing there kind of makes me wonder about that though.

Monsanto taking over our food supply is a much bigger threat then what any of the countries mentioned are doing.

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WhiteShoePrincess 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Monsanto taking over our food supply is a much bigger threat then what any of the countries mentioned are doing.

No kidding! Self terminator seeds are going to make farmers go bankrupt, possibly cause damage to the consumer's health and cause millions to starve to death!
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HeySal

14 years ago

Printing money DOESN"T cause the dollar to lose Reserve Currency Status. Other countries deciding they don't want to use the Dollar as reserve anymore does. That is what is going on in China/Russia..not sure about Japan - but there are several countries debating another currency for reserve. We can't much stop them if they decide to take on a different currency.

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whateverpedia

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Printing money DOESN"T cause the dollar to lose Reserve Currency Status. Other countries deciding they don't want to use the Dollar as reserve anymore does. That is what is going on in China/Russia..not sure about Japan - but there are several countries debating another currency for reserve. We can't much stop them if they decide to take on a different currency.

One of the reasons for the invasion of Iraq was (allegedly) because Saddam wanted to start selling Iraqi oil in euros rather $US.

With the discovery of oil in Saudi Arabia, the US offered to prop up the medieval regime there with military equipment in exchange for oil sold in $US. All nations that wanted to buy oil from the Saudis had to use US$ to do so too.

As soon as resource rich countries start selling their output in any other currency than the US$, then the other countries will have to dump their US$'s in favour of whatever currency is needed.

America may have the biggest economy in the world for the time being, but that won't last. In just over a decade China has grown from virtually nothing to become the second biggest economy. By the end of this decade there is every reason to believe they will be the biggest.

A study of history will show that prior to the 20th century, Britain and the European nations were the economic powerhouses of the world, and the Pound Sterling was the world's reserve currency.

The 20th century saw a massive transfer of wealth from Europe to the US and the US$ replacing Sterling as the reserve currency. The 21st century will see that wealth transferred from the US to China and other Asian countries. This has already started to happen.

What the next reserve currency will be is anyone's guess at the moment, although for obvious reasons, it's unlikely to be the Euro.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

One of the reasons for the invasion of Iraq was (allegedly) because Saddam wanted to start selling Iraqi oil in euros rather .

With the discovery of oil in Saudi Arabia, the US offered to prop up the medieval regime there with military equipment in exchange for oil sold in . All nations that wanted to buy oil from the Saudis had to use US$ to do so too.

As soon as resource rich countries start selling their output in any other currency than the US$, then the other countries will have to dump their US$'s in favour of whatever currency is needed.

America may have the biggest economy in the world for the time being, but that won't last. In just over a decade China has grown from virtually nothing to become the second biggest economy. By the end of this decade there is every reason to believe they will be the biggest.

A study of history will show that prior to the 20th century, Britain and the European nations were the economic powerhouses of the world, and the Pound Sterling was the world's reserve currency.

The 20th century saw a massive transfer of wealth from Europe to the US and the US$ replacing Sterling as the reserve currency. The 21st century will see that wealth transferred from the US to China and other Asian countries. This has already started to happen.

What the next reserve currency will be is anyone's guess at the moment, although for obvious reasons, it's unlikely to be the Euro.

The standard of living may well rise in the Asian countries but it does not follow that the U.S. standard of living has to continue to decline.

We in the U.S. have all the resources we need to eventually return to our former high standard of living.

But for now...

The voters are having a little trouble determining which is the best course of action out of this great recession.

We'll see what 2012 holds for us.

All The Best!!

TL

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

America may have the biggest economy in the world for the time being, but that won't last. In just over a decade China has grown from virtually nothing to become the second biggest economy. By the end of this decade there is every reason to believe they will be the biggest.

From the second article I posted. Also, China's economy will be slowing down and it's likely to happen fairly soon. It definitely won't grow at 10% for 44 years as the description below says needs to happen for them to catch up to us:

"Granted, China is growing at roughly 10% a year, and we are only growing at 3%. I get that. Let's do the math though and see if we should worry. If China is a $6 trillion economy, growing at 10%, they grow by $600 billion a year. If we are a $14 trillion economy growing at 3%, we grow by $420 billion a year. In this close to reality example, China is closing the gap at $180 billion a year. At this rate - it will take China 44 years to even match the US in GDP. Can they continue to grow at 10% a year, while their largest customer grows at 3% for 44 straight years? We are a far cry from no longer being the largest economy. "

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derekwong28

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

From the second article I posted. Also, China's economy will be slowing down and it's likely to happen fairly soon. It definitely won't grow at 10% for 44 years as the description below says needs to happen for them to catch up to us:

"Granted, China is growing at roughly 10% a year, and we are only growing at 3%. I get that. Let's do the math though and see if we should worry. If China is a $6 trillion economy, growing at 10%, they grow by $600 billion a year. If we are a $14 trillion economy growing at 3%, we grow by $420 billion a year. In this close to reality example, China is closing the gap at $180 billion a year. At this rate - it will take China 44 years to even match the US in GDP. Can they continue to grow at 10% a year, while their largest customer grows at 3% for 44 straight years? We are a far cry from no longer being the largest economy. "

It really depends on what type of GDP figures you are using. Many economists prefer to use PPP (Purchasing Power Parity) to take into account temporary abnormalities in exchange rates. The Chinese currency is widely thought to be undervalued and therefore its real GDP is probably higher than it is nominally is. In time, it will be forced to appreciate as it had done so for the last few years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...es_by_GDP_(PPP)

Using PPP, the GDP of China is estimated to be 11 trillion vs 15 trillion by the IMF, World Bank and the CIA. China probably overtook Japan as the world's second largest economy several years ago but only overtook it nominally last year partly because its currency was forced to appreciate.

I really do find the Seeking Alpha article extremely badly written. It says if China is completely dumped as trading partner, other countries will come in quickly. Do you think it is possible for the manufacturing capacity of China to be replaced by other countries in a short period of time? My hunch is that the writer is likely to be the same people who wrote there is no housing in America several years ago and that house prices would never go down.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Good point about the PPP Derek. Even if we use the PPP instead of nominal however, it would take China around 15 to 20 years to catch the US if we used the 10% vs 3% growth figures. Of course, many things can change. We could go back into a recession. China's growth can slow. Our growth could heat up ( not likely soon ).

Originally Posted by derekwong28

It really depends on what type of GDP figures you are using. Many economists prefer to use PPP (Purchasing Power Parity) to take into account temporary abnormalities in exchange rates. The Chinese currency is widely thought to be undervalued and therefore its real GDP is probably higher than it is nominally is. In time, it will be forced to appreciate as it had done so for the last few years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...es_by_GDP_(PPP)

Using PPP, the GDP of China is estimated to be 11 trillion vs 15 trillion by the IMF, World Bank and the CIA. China probably overtook Japan as the world's second largest economy several years ago but only overtook it nominally last year partly because its currency was forced to appreciate.

I don't think he was saying China's production capacity could be replaced quickly or that it even should be. He was just using a hypothetical to show how unlikely it is for China to tell the US which currency to use.

I really do find the Seeking Alpha article extremely badly written. It says if China is completely dumped as trading partner, other countries will come in quickly. Do you think it is possible for the manufacturing capacity of China to be replaced by other countries in a short period of time? My hunch is that the writer is likely to be the same people who wrote there is no housing in America several years ago and that house prices would never go down.

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derekwong28

14 years ago

This is already happening, China and Japan has signed currency swaps bypassing the US dollar, and it has happened with other countries at a fast pace. Those who travel a lot in Asia cannot but help that most hotels stopped quoting room prices in US dollars a few years ago. Many establishments that used to accept US dollars do not accept it anymore.

China And Japan Currency Swap: Nail In US Dollar's Coffin - OpEd

China, Japan to Back Direct Trade of Currencies - Bloomberg

China and Australia in $31bn currency swap - FT.com

India, Japan agree to $15 billion currency swap - The Times of India

The BRIC Currency Swap Proposal Is A Global Game Changer - Business Insider

But right now, the threat of a "Japanese lost decade" is much more likely than hyperinflation.

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in economics, but I can say one thing relevant to this conversation...

Never think it can't happen here, no matter what "it" is. Anything can happen. We should know there's no such thing as "too big to fail" from a brief examination of history.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in economics, but I can say one thing relevant to this conversation...

Never think it can't happen here, no matter what "it" is. Anything can happen. We should know there's no such thing as "too big to fail" from a brief examination of history.

Couldn't agree more Dennis.
When I comment in threads like this I have three main thoughts in mind.
1. I could be wrong.
2. It doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong (in the grand scheme of things).
3. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

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whateverpedia

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in economics, but I can say one thing relevant to this conversation...

Never think it can't happen here, no matter what "it" is. Anything can happen. We should know there's no such thing as "too big to fail" from a brief examination of history.

Sounds like a cue for some music I think - Can't Happen Here by Rainbow

Rainbow - Can't Happen Here(Official Music Video)...

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WhiteShoePrincess

14 years ago

The only thing besides gold and silver that I can think of to hedge against hyperinflation would be agriculture. That means if you're a farmer or grow any type of crop (Especially organic heirloom crops) you would be doing well still. No matter what shape an economy is in everyone has to eat so food will always be in demand. The only question is in a hyperinflation economy will anyone have enough to buy that food?

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by WhiteShoePrincess

The only thing besides gold and silver that I can think of to hedge against hyperinflation would be agriculture. That means if you're a farmer or grow any type of crop (Especially organic heirloom crops) you would be doing well still. No matter what shape an economy is in everyone has to eat so food will always be in demand. The only question is in a hyperinflation economy will anyone have enough to buy that food?

OR will they decide to buy different food OR steal your land OR charge you more for everything else, etc...

Steve

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Jeff Burritt

Banned 14 years ago

I recently decided to print my own money. Basically an "I owe you" note. But my bank wouldn't accept it. They said, however, they would accept the "I owe you" note from "The Federal Reserve Bank" of the United States. I ask them who this bank was, and they kinda stared at me. And said that this bank was here in the U.S. And gave me an address. I asked them who owns this bank, and they didn't know. But they accept their "I owe you notes." hmmm....

Further, my bank won't loan me money without proof of identity AND ownership of tangible assets. Yet, they fund the loan (I owe you notes) from the Fed Reserve Bank without knowledge of identity and tangible proof of assets. hmmm....

Not sure where this is going, but I remember some weird quote from my history books about "the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it."

Can't recall who said that though. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Jeff

P.S. Random thought, but if you have ever played cards, there's seem to be two basic ideas. 1) If you get a good hand (control the cards) you like to play that hand for all it's worth. 2) If you don't get a good hand, you like to bluff and/or fold and hope for a better hand. But there's a critical caveat, you have to SHUFFLE THE DECK AND DEAL CARDS FAIRLY.

P.S. "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -Mark Twain

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeff Burritt

I recently decided to print my own money. Basically an "I owe you" note. But my bank wouldn't accept it. They said, however, they would accept the "I owe you" note from "The Federal Reserve Bank" of the United States. I ask them who this bank was, and they kinda stared at me. And said that this bank was here in the U.S. And gave me an address. I asked them who owns this bank, and they didn't know. But they accept their "I owe you notes." hmmm....

Further, my bank won't loan me money without proof of identity AND ownership of tangible assets. Yet, they fund the loan (I owe you notes) from the Fed Reserve Bank without knowledge of identity and tangible proof of assets. hmmm....

Not sure where this is going, but I remember some weird quote from my history books about "the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it."

Can't recall who said that though. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Jeff

P.S. Random thought, but if you have ever played cards, there's seem to be two basic ideas. 1) If you get a good hand (control the cards) you like to play that hand for all it's worth. 2) If you don't get a good hand, you like to bluff and/or fold and hope for a better hand. But there's a critical caveat, you have to SHUFFLE THE DECK AND DEAL CARDS FAIRLY.

However in life, just like in many poker games, "positiion" matters.

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myob 14 years ago

The US dollar is the defacto currency of international trade. Unless there is a global failure of confidence in the position of the dollar and a concurrent collapse of the largest economy in the world, there is an extremely low probability of hyperinflation in the US.
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Jeff Burritt

Banned 14 years ago

Many of Western Europe's former super powers STILL have great standards of living for the average citizen when compared to the rest of the world. So yes, they may not be top dog, but still have a relatively nice life.

But this life, is a dependent life. Few countries today, could truly be self-sufficient if they had too. Luckily, the U.S. is still one.

The question for our generation: What will we do with the resources, freedoms, and talents we've inherited? Spend them selfishly on our eccentric notions? Or, act as stewards and guardians of a sacred trust? An honorable duty to NOT just preserve the status quo, but to keep our cherished ideals (contained in our charter: The Declaration of Independence / Constitution) unpolluted and flourishing.

If our garden would be praise worthy and bountiful, then we must garden it, i.e. WORK. And teach our children to do the same. And not just gaze into our narcissistic fancies.

And sidenote: Remember the cold war? Well, we have been for some time fully engaged in a quiet war. A cyber war. It is here America maintains technological advantage to keep the dogs at bay. And we will be able to preserve our heritage and prolong our posterity as long as we have the will to keeping working, innovating, and if necessary fighting.

I wish blood and toil were not part of the equation. I wish I was in a hammock on the beach sipping the salt and lime. I wish a lot of sweet things, which are ok to share in moderation. But that won't make my children proud, or help them grow to make me proud.

Our mission is not to right the world of wrong, but to do right in our world of wrong. Our nation is far from perfect, but we can challenge ourselves to be better. Then the worries of hyper inflation, bumps and lumps, and nicks and tucks become dim frivolities outshined by freedom worth emulating.

-Jeff

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeff Burritt

Many of Western Europe's former super powers STILL have great standards of living for the average citizen when compared to the rest of the world. So yes, they may not be top dog, but still have a relatively nice life.

But this life, is a dependent life. Few countries today, could truly be self-sufficient if they had too. Luckily, the U.S. is still one.

Then why isn't it NOW? Did the US EVER get a trade surplus? SERIOUSLY, it has had a deficit since I was a little kid. THEN it was a LEADER in technology, weaponry, etc... Only ONE base currency was really worth more. Gold cost a few hundred dollars or LESS. The US made clothes, food, etc... Check out stuff at the stores NOW! And some of it isn't even inexpensive!

The question for our generation: What will we do with the resources, freedoms, and talents we've inherited? Spend them selfishly on our eccentric notions? Or, act as stewards and guardians of a sacred trust? An honorable duty to NOT just preserve the status quo, but to keep our cherished ideals (contained in our charter: The Declaration of Independence / Constitution) unpolluted and flourishing.

AGAIN! Want the answer? Look in the papers! SQUANDERED, GIVEN AWAY, SPIT ON, SPENT SELFISHLY!

If our garden would be praise worthy and bountiful, then we must garden it, i.e. WORK. And teach our children to do the same. And not just gaze into our narcissistic fancies.

Nice thought, just a couple generations too late!

And sidenote: Remember the cold war? Well, we have been for some time fully engaged in a quiet war. A cyber war. It is here America maintains technological advantage to keep the dogs at bay. And we will be able to preserve our heritage and prolong our posterity as long as we have the will to keeping working, innovating, and if necessary fighting.

I don't know WHO said the cold war was over. It never ended. A cold war is when countries are at a high readiness level, building up, competing, WITHOUT actually going to war. China is CLEARLY at that level TODAY! And the only REAL "threat" they could be after is the US. Oh SURE, they posture about asia, but they could probably fight a war on EVERY front without ANYONE beating them! Oh SURE, they may not WIN, but nobody else would either.

I wish blood and toil were not part of the equation. I wish I was in a hammock on the beach sipping the salt and lime. I wish a lot of sweet things, which are ok to share in moderation. But that won't make my children proud, or help them grow to make me proud.

Our mission is not to right the world of wrong, but to do right in our world of wrong. Our nation is far from perfect, but we can challenge ourselves to be better. Then the worries of hyper inflation, bumps and lumps, and nicks and tucks become dim frivolities outshined by freedom worth emulating.

Now THAT is a good thought! I wish everyone felt that way.

Steve