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And l agree some people can and do get pretty emotional about this sort of thing, so l will keep to the facts.
Despite that bit of common sense in the fourth post in the recent thread on global warming/climate change, some folks decided to get nasty.

I knew as soon as I saw that one I should have shut it down immediately. Some people in this section (note that I am speaking most specifically to seasoned and sloanjim at this point) seem incapable of sticking to the facts of any controversial discussion and leaving out the hostility.

Do we really need to go back to nuking everything more serious than YouTube kitten videos and "What's your favorite" threads? If that's what you want, I'm happy to oblige.

If not, please report the hostility as soon as it rears its head.

I'd ask people to start being more civil, but the ones who're receptive to that suggestion already have and the ones who didn't aren't likely to learn.


Paul
  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    Paul, attending a gaming forum regularly now, I am finding this is common
    behavior. In spite of numerous warnings from mods about using certain words
    people continue to disregard them and continue to receive infractions and
    banning.

    Human nature what it is, I seriously doubt that this is ever going to change.

    I have been tempted to report certain threads right away before they even got
    started because I knew they would become hostile, but didn't because I was
    willing to give people the benefit of the doubt.

    I guess I have to stop doing that unless the forum rules prohibit me from
    reporting a thread just because it "could" get ugly.

    Not sure how to handle it so I'll just take my cue from you and the mods.

    Maybe my mom, God rest her soul, was right.

    "Men are just children in big bodies."
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Mostly a bump Paul
      But if I can refrain from calling people idiots or telling them to bite my shiny metal ass (most of the time) then there's no reason others can't be more civil also.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Mostly a bump Paul
        But if I can refrain from calling people idiots or telling them to bite my shiny metal ass (most of the time) then there's no reason others can't be more civil also.
        You have a shiny metal ass??? Wow, you must be a HUGE hit with the ladies
        Thom.
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          You have a shiny metal ass??? Wow, you must be a HUGE hit with the ladies
          Thom.
          Yep it's my Avatar
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Thom,
            But if I can refrain from calling people idiots or telling them to bite my shiny metal ass (most of the time) then there's no reason others can't be more civil also.
            Just tell 'em to "kiss my fender, Bender."

            Steven,

            This is normal behavior for many, if not most, online forums.

            Some of these folks don't even realize they're over the line. If you're going to slam someone, you should at least know you're doing it, and have a purpose in mind other than being rude.

            We aren't running a kindergarten here, so folks don't need to walk on eggshells. Just don't bash based on what should be a rational disagreement.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Sheryl Polomka
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Some of these folks don't even realize they're over the line. If you're going to slam someone, you should at least know you're doing it, and have a purpose in mind other than being rude.
              Paul
              I remember, one of the people mentioned, said something in one of my threads once that I was REALLY insulted by. And I told him, in the thread, that I had always admired him but my opinion of him had just dropped drastically and that I was deeply offended by what he had said.

              From memory, he just replied with something like, I don't think what I said was offensive I just said such and such..... blah blah blah....

              I think there is a mind set of 'I'm right, you're wrong' no matter what and they have no interest in hearing other people's opinions and don't think they are offending anyone because what they say is 'right' and that's all there is to it.

              I don't think anything you say or do will change that Paul, unfortunately. That's just the way some people are!
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Sheryl,
                From memory, he just replied with something like, I don't think what I said was offensive I just said such and such..... blah blah blah....
                Yeah. I've seen variations on that theme from the same gentleman many times over the years he's been a member here. He's a good guy, really.

                We all have blindspots, and his just happen to be a bad mix for clarity in online discussion. He has at least calmed down on his typographical excesses a bit. I used to think the rest was just enthusiasm, until he started talking politics.

                Like a disturbing percentage of the American populace, he seems unwilling to entertain the notion that two rational people can want the same outcome, have nothing but good intentions, and come at the challenge from very different angles. So, if you take a different approach than he thinks is right, you're either stupid or [generic-bad-person-label].
                I don't think anything you say or do will change that Paul, unfortunately. That's just the way some people are!
                Many, unfortunately. It helps to remember that it's just one small corner of a larger canvas.

                Sort of like the toad or the stump in the landscape. The picture would lose something without it.


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                • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  ...

                  Like a disturbing percentage of the American populace, he seems unwilling to entertain the notion that two rational people can want the same outcome, have nothing but good intentions, and come at the challenge from very different angles. So, if you take a different approach than he thinks is right, you're either stupid or [generic-bad-person-label].

                  ...
                  I hope I don't resemble that remark. I really really try to be 'above the fray' and not get personal when discussing passionate subjects, but I do admit to being tempted to lash out in kind when someone attacks me rather than my ideas.

                  I don't have any problem with threads being closed when the dialogue descends to the insult and invectives level, in fact, I'm happy when they are. Saving us from ourselves is a little-known and unappreciated function of the moderators, yes?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Steve,
                    Saving us from ourselves is a little-known and unappreciated function of the moderators, yes?
                    Nope. That's occasionally a happy side benefit, but it's not the purpose. We step into those sorts of discussions because they stifle other members in ways that aren't productive.

                    If two or more people want to beat each other up verbally over music or movies, we'll let it go, within limits. In some sections, notably the copywriting and SEO sub-forums, things are quite a bit rougher than here or main discussion. But public policy debates? Those aren't the area for nasty.

                    Certain kinds of nasty just aren't allowed at all.


                    Paul

                    Edit: I should clarify an earlier post. The reference to the toad or stump being a small part of a larger picture was suggesting that Steve's (seasoned's) posting style was a small part of his personality. Not that Steve was the toad in a larger group.

                    Apologies to Steve if that one seemed like a personal shot. Having just re-read it, I noticed that my intent there was not at all clear.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Mostly a bump Paul
        But if I can refrain from calling people idiots or telling them to bite my shiny metal ass (most of the time) then there's no reason others can't be more civil also.
        Transformers,More Than Meets The Eyes!

        Seriously, I am probably guilty of coming close to crossing the line than some others. I don't remember if the Mods can see deleted posts or not,but if so they have seen many a post I wrote out then deleted because I thought I had crossed certain boundaries.

        But as most here know, be civil to me and I'll be civil back.

        My biggest mistake,imo, is that certain people know what buttons to push and in moments of weakness I let them do it.
        I'm trying to stop that.

        Steven, don't feel bad about asking to have a thread closed. I've PM before and requested certain ones closed because even though I have participated in them, I saw the responses becoming more and more out of line.

        There are several here that seem to want to push the Mods with both thread titles and subject matter to see exactly how far they can push without getting banned. I don't think any more needs to be said on the subject.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    When you get into that stuff it just hurts you. Trust me Ive been into it. I am one of them of whome Paul speaketh at times.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      John,
      I am one of them of whome Paul speaketh at times.
      Not in years you haven't. All it took for you to mellow it down was becoming aware of the impact of what you were saying.


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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Thanks Paul,

    Maybe Im just being self conscious then. Thanks for that.

    -John

    Ps. Im going to go bash some newbies now!
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Kim the beauty of the songwriting "craft" is to see how far you can push the parameters without breaking the code...skating the edges is an art. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    Well I am glad you shut it down and i for one will not be wasting any more time on that subject. Minds are closed and thats' that but I do feel I posted good facts which I spent some time on.

    End of subject.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by sloanjim View Post

      Well I am glad you shut it down and i for one will not be wasting any more time on that subject. Minds are closed and thats' that but I do feel I posted good facts which I spent some time on.

      End of subject.
      I think he is referring to a pattern more than a specific post.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    @Steve Johnson

    Sometimes it even feels like they do it "JUST" to save us from ourselves. Much appreciated.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    WOW, THANKS paul! That is the SECOND time today you happily surprised me! I DID take that personally, but what could I do?

    To all here, the OTHER time Paul surprised me today? I earlier mntioned a bad storm we had, in the GW thread. Well, it hit this city BAD! I went one place yesterday, 3 hours after the storm, and there was lots of traffic, street lights were out, and stores were closed. ALL because of power.

    LUCKILY, I recovered almost 100% in SECONDS. TWO problems. A tree is broken, and will likely have to be trimmed or replaced, and my cable is out. The cable I use for INTERNET. 8-( I am on now for the second time in two days through my phone.

    Well, some spammer apparently spammed here and started opening up three WSOs with my account. Admittedly, my password was only MODERATELY hard to guess. The new one is FAR harder, albeit still not THE most secure.

    Anyway, Paul, rather than just banning me, warned me to change my password. He said he knew it wasn't my style. HECK, I don't even use SIGs! I changed the password, and told the warior forum to cancel all three WSOs EVEN if they receive payment. Hopefully they will comply. And I am trying to see if I can access the damage here.

    Note to spammer! What little private info you THINK you might have gleaned from my CP, is WRONG! My AGE is even wrong there.

    Frankly, I almost HOPE he tries, as he might end up in jail.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Steve,
      I DID take that personally, but what could I do?
      Well, you'd have a hard time saying the comments about your posting style were new. We've only had that "discussion" a few dozen times since you joined.

      For the rest, though? You'd have been right to take a slap at me if you read it the wrong way. The unintended interpretation would have been inaccurate and uncalled for. And, sadly, a reasonable misreading of the comment.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        John,
        How do these people do this through phishing?
        Not sure yet. There are eastern Europeans and a botnet involved, so it could be almost any attack vector short of a full-scale dictionary attack on the forum. We'd know if that was happening.

        Could be malware on Steve's machine, phishing, "man in the browser," spearphishing, cross-account password similarities leading to a targeted dictionary attack, email hijacking, an unknown (to us) vBulletin exploit, and probably things I'm not thinking of at the moment.


        Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Well, some spammer apparently spammed here and started opening up three WSOs with my account. Admittedly, my password was only MODERATELY hard to guess. The new one is FAR harder, albeit still not THE most secure.
      Thanks for the reminder. I was still using my original password, which I think was assigned when I signed up. I can't imagine I picked that password as it wouldn't have been too hard to crack using the right tools.

      I've now changed it so it's like all my other passwords ... extremely difficult to crack with a good mix of upper and lower case letters, numbers, and special characters. Not to mention that it's a block long.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        Thanks for the reminder. I was still using my original password, which I think was assigned when I sighed up. I can't imagine I picked that password as it wouldn't have been too hard to crack using the right tools.

        I've now changed it so it's like all my other passwords ... extremely difficult to crack with a good mix of upper and lower case letters, numbers, and special characters. Not to mention that it's a block long.
        I ORIGINALLY had 2 variants and each had a few sub variants. I used them for different reasons. NOW, I have about 8 variants and DOZENS of sub variants, and I have to use a password manager to keep them straight.

        Anyway, I did it thins way to make things easier on me and make sure that a person breaking one pasword can't get like everything. He got NO closer to any bank accounts, for example.

        BTW passwords used to be one page, and checked two things, user and password, NOW, all the banks I deal with, check about 4 things! IF it is from MY computer, for example, I enter the password, and THEY check the cookie on my computer as well as the user, and they show me a picture and pass phrase I picked out or loaded, and I give them the password. At least one bank ALSO asks where opened up the account.

        Things are getting FAR harder! There are only about 4 things left to check, that they don't. Some corporations check out that stuff though!
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          ... I have to use a password manager to keep them straight.
          Same here ... Roboform?

          I also have a print out with all my passwords that I keep in my safe. It's something like 25-30 pages long printed out.
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          Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Good God Steve that is horrific! Lucky Paul knows you, I had someone break into my alibaba account and start selling things and it wasnt pretty trying to explain that it wasnt me later.
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  • Profile picture of the author Janet Sawyer
    Phew!

    This little old forum wouldn't be the same without Steve and his SEASONING - ----

    Glad to know all is well.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Paul,

    How do these people do this through phishing?

    -John
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Paul,

      How do these people do this through phishing?

      -John
      Well, with ME it wan't PHISHING! I don't fall for that. It COULD have been tril and error. There are a few patterns common with some that I use here. ALSO, I do they same thing on some LOW END accounts. It COULD have been SPOOFING. That is more common than some believe. THAT is why GMAIL now asks people to use SSL. It COULD have been hacking of some other fashion. HOPEFULLY it isn't a virus.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Im sorry guys, but I have to use a word as strong as hate, for this kind. I hate these cockroaches.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Im sorry guys, but I have to use a word as strong as hate, for this kind. I hate these cockroaches.
      You have THAT right, and you aren't alone!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      A popular thread might be one explaining the difference between these things...spoofing, phishing...

      I wouldnt know where to start myself.
      Phising generally means that you send an email that requests that a person goes to a certain location, or replies with info on some pretense. Often it is claiming that some info has to be updated or changed for a bank.

      Spoofing is somehow intercepting info mid stream and pulling out passwords, etc... SSL makes that VERY difficult since they can't get the private key, and the info looks like garbage. As I said, Gmail had problems with spoofing so they now allow SSL, ANY decent ecommerce site uses ssl. HTTPS, SFTP, SSH ALL use SSL!

      Of course, viruses can get the info anywhere the have access to.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Well, with ME it wasn't PHISHING! I don't fall for that. It COULD have been trial and error. There are a few patterns common with some that I use here. ALSO, I do they same thing on some LOW END accounts. It COULD have been SPOOFING. That is more common than some believe. THAT is why GMAIL now asks people to use SSL. It COULD have been hacking of some other fashion. HOPEFULLY it isn't a virus. I am NOW using a variant that is part of something I use on moderately high security accounts. If he cracks IT, he gets NO hints on ANY account he could actually use. If he cracks it, the changes are almost 100% that it is NOT a guess!!! Of course, in THOSE other account cases I use a twist that is a bit more secure, but THEY all require hardware anyway, and a random user, and he has, and can get, neither.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I had Roboform once and it got corrupted, so now I just have my notebook.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      @ Dennis, I remember being impressed with your process for allowing customers to access your reports. What is the best way to protect your work?

      Man I am so tired of people giving away my ****.

      Is "You cant protect it" still the status quot..?
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

        @ Dennis, I remember being impressed with your process for allowing customers to access your reports. What is the best way to protect your work?

        Man I am so tired of people giving away my ****.

        Is "You cant protect it" still the status quot..?


        John, I'll send you a PM.
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        Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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