Warrior Forum Moderator Updates

by Alaister 96 replies
Hi everyone,

From today we have decided to have all of the Warrior Forum moderation done by internal Warrior Forum/Freelancer.com staff. We have had a lot of community moderators over the years. They have done an amazing job of enforcing the forum rules as well as ensuring the forums and marketplaces are safe and valuable for everyone.

I would especially like to thank Paul Myers, and the rest of the community moderation team as they have contributed a huge amount of time and effort to moderate the forums. They have all been a great help to us after Freelancer.com acquired Warrior Forum.

Moving forward we will be revising the forum and marketplace rules and our internal Warrior Forum team will be moderating the forums. We will be posting the new WSO and forum rules shortly.

Our goal moving forward is to be fair and transparent with all decisions we make with the aim of growing the Warrior Forum userbase, ensuring quality in conversation and offers sold in our marketplaces as well as remaining the #1 Internet marketing forum and marketplace in the world. The decisions our staff moderators make are final and we ask the community to respect the decisions and the work that they do to ensure the forum continues to run smoothly and be a valuable place for everyone. We won't be dealing with support issues via the forums but will be more than happy to address all issues in our Support Desk.
#warrior forum news #forum #moderator #updates #warrior
  • Profile picture of the author pearsonbrown
    It would have taken you very little extra effort to send PMs to the mods involved. I found out this morning when I couldn't use my mod tools. Some of us have been doing this for several years on an unpaid basis.

    I didn't expect thanks, just common courtesy.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alaister
      Originally Posted by pearsonbrown View Post

      It would have taken you very little extra effort to send PMs to the mods involved. I found out this morning when I couldn't use my mod tools. Some of us have been doing this for several years on an unpaid basis.

      I didn't expect thanks, just common courtesy.
      Sorry about not sending the message before you read this. We've sent emails and PMs to basically all the community moderators. I've sent you a message now.
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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
        Alaister ... since Freelancer has decided that it no longer needs the services of volunteer moderators who have put in years of good, if unrewarded, service to the WF, can we assume that you no longer require member moderation either?
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        • Profile picture of the author michaeloslier
          I think this place needs some fresh blood anyway.
          I'm looking forward to the new rules.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Sorry about not sending the message before you read this. We've sent emails and PMs to basically all the community moderators.
            I find that shocking and a total lack of professional courtesy. What possible rush was there to excuse rudeness to people who have dedicated time and effort on this forum for years?

            As for member moderators, I'm done with it myself. My efforts were to help volunteer mods I respected keep this place cleaned up. I'll let paid mods be the forum police now. I'm sure they can handle it without my help.

            kay
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            • Profile picture of the author Khemosabi
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              I find that shocking and a total lack of professional courtesy. What possible rush was there to excuse rudeness to people who have dedicated time and effort on this forum for years?

              As for member moderators, I'm done with it myself. My efforts were to help volunteer mods I respected keep this place cleaned up. I'll let paid mods be the forum police now. I'm sure they can handle it without my help.

              kay
              Dang it Kay.. I'm out of thanks.

              Thank you. It's a shame that the people who have made this forum the quality forum that it was are being chased away.

              ~ Theresa
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      • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
        Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

        Sorry about not sending the message before you read this. We've sent emails and PMs to basically all the community moderators. I've sent you a message now.

        I'm sure sending a message after the fact will boost his sense of accomplishment!
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        • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
          well, I'm not surprised - nor am I impressed - this is just another nail in this forum\s coffin, in my opinion.

          I just want to say thanks to all the previous Mods, you guys rock and deserve much kudos!
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          I think most people could see this coming when the Australian positions were advertised. Still some people have served for a long time and have done the community a great service (some not so much). Might I suggest that particularly those that have served a longtime be given a designation by their username and special considerations such as discounts or free access to paid areas?

          There must be a way to show continuing appreciation for this service going forward. Could we work on that rather than on the issue of their being let go which again I think many should have seen coming and at least in some cases does have benefit.
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  • Profile picture of the author serpyre
    [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
    Oh, bad move.... I understand the logic but can tell you don't see its obvious flaw.

    Good luck, you've just devalued your asset. I hope your accounting dept. has a handle on how to properly allocate the accumulated depreciation of a digital asset.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by godoveryou View Post

      Oh, bad move.... I understand the logic but can tell you don't see its obvious flaw.

      Good luck, you've just devalued your asset. I hope your accounting dept. has a handle on how to properly allocate the accumulated depreciation of a digital asset.
      Disagree my man. changing mods is their right and to be honest theres just too much hostility between the old guard and the new owners. I am surprised this didn't happen earlier although I am by no means claiming all Mods or even most were not on the new team.

      Only issue I see is honoring the work done by the old mods. Replacing them is their call and completely within their rights to make.
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  • Profile picture of the author serpyre
    Well done WarriorForum, removes the service provider conflict of interest that's endemic all the community moderated forums - nice to see you're the first to bring it inhouse. Now just need to bring back the paid subscription model which will add further quality to the site.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Funny, Mike. I didn't see anyone saying it wasn't their "right".

    I'm sad about this. WF used to have a lot of class. I see that quality in rapid deterioration. I can't imagine Allen having ever treated his staff, paid or unpaid, with such disrespect as not sending notification well before making a public dismissal announcement.

    But then, the old forum was a community. We made friends and business associates here. Services were offered, but we were never spammed daily about them in our email boxes. We were considered smart enough to know what services we wanted and that they were there when we wanted them. The money mill mentality has been taking hold over time, though.

    The old community is dying off. Many of us are trying to ignore the changes by hunkering down in the OT forum, I'm seeing a real drop in participation there, too, of the people I look forward to chatting with when I come in here. It's really sad after decades of developing a community to see it on its way out. Like it or not, this place is changing. We either just ignore it or find another community that we're more comfortable with.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      I'm sad about this. WF used to have a lot of class. I see that quality in rapid deterioration.
      Funny sal. I haven't detected that quality in WSOs for years. Whose watch that happened under the evil Freelancers?

      I can't imagine Allen having ever treated his staff, paid or unpaid, with such disrespect as not sending notification well before making a public dismissal announcement.
      No people just got booted and banned with threads locked for making the wrong observations . Still I would say thats shoddy but that Alaister has said he did email them. Perhaps thats not true and its not in their email box but the usual crowd always knows whatever he says isn't true before they even know for sure. Meanwhile allen is gone. he sold out What does he have to do with anything?

      Have you considered the possibility that just maybe if there is bad blood its the group you are a part of that helped to create that with all the "allen this" and it was all roses and peaches until the day the rebel forces and darth Vader took over fantasy talk? To hear you talk its like WF was just this wonderful place that all people of the world came to be blessed and make money while hula girls (or guys) danced in the background not the one that has a pretty bad reputation on the rest of the net earned a LOOOOONG time ago..

      The money mill mentality has been taking hold over time, though.
      Pure nonsense to put that at the feet of Alaister and freelancer Sal. like it just happened this year. The money mill started taking over the day it was decided anybody could post just about anything for a War room membership and $20 and then $40. Who did that Alaister? or Allen?


      Many of us are trying to ignore the changes by hunkering down in the OT forum, I'm seeing a real drop in participation there, too,
      Ecstatic to hear. the last time I was in there I read a whole lot of racist stuff and then got a PM that my objections to the racism had earned me a threat of being banned from there (cue the excuses including my objections to racism were not genteel enough).

      Once again I am not for the Mods not being notified if they were not and I have suggested a constructive way to honor them but as your post proves the attitude against new ownership goes way beyond that and a lot of it is just about cronyism.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      The old community is dying off. Many of us are trying to ignore the changes by hunkering down in the OT forum, I'm seeing a real drop in participation there, too, of the people I look forward to chatting with when I come in here. It's really sad after decades of developing a community to see it on its way out. Like it or not, this place is changing. We either just ignore it or find another community that we're more comfortable with.
      Indeed. The word community really doesn't apply much anymore. Entire forums filled with cookie stuffers, link droppers, and people who barely know a word of English, much less any real information on the topic they're spouting off about. It's like an invasion of bots, only their conversation is just barely intelligible enough that you can't report it. There is no engagement, no great conversations, no humor and camaraderie that existed here for a long time. The "improvements" aren't much of an improvement ... riddled with bugs and barely functional, completely borked up search function, but the worst part is not what they've done to the commercial sections ... it's the destruction of the community. That's Growth Hacking for ya baby ... blind acquisition of the most undesirable members a forum can have just to bolster the membership numbers. Yeah, that makes sense.

      Yeah, I get it. Freelancer doesn't make any money on community and great conversations ... they think. But it is the successful, intelligent people who participated in the community that made the commercial sections worth visiting and buying, and who had intelligent advice for all the others who were trying to make it online. For the most part, that's gone. Try asking advice of these new little botlets and what do you get? Me use "xxxxx" (drop spam link here) ... it's really great.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    I have been attempting to judge the new ownership slowly.
    The loud images, the illogical messiness of the rearranged forums,
    and the sudden influx of successful Blue Fart marketers in every
    part of the forum rather than localized in only their spammy areas.

    I've come to the conclusion that I'm very thankful to you for
    making this place feel more like Digital Point and Black Hat World...
    It's always a pleasure to watch people purchase silly old stone buildings
    and gut them, flipping them into a Sarasota McMansion for fun and profit!

    The pretty (substance-less) words are always my favorite parts:


    Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

    Our goal moving forward is to be fair and transparent with all decisions we make
    Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

    The decisions our staff moderators make are final
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  • Profile picture of the author Icematikx
    Still seems a bit low from any end of the spectrum. Regardless of whether it's their asset - the mods should have been part of that asset. Some moderators take their positions seriously, as a way of contributing to the community. It's like being slapped by Penguin. You wake up one day and find out you've lost a thing you care about.

    I've never had a problem with Friedman or Yukon (didn't even know Yukon was a mod!!) - so that goes to show how intouch they were. If WF turns into a nazi-hole, traffic will decline I'm sure. Part of the fun is that the SEO forum is full of crap in between some decent advice. Every thread spurs a Mike Anthony American superiority contest - but that's what makes WF, right?

    We'll see.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Mike,

      You're talking stuff you don't know about except from second-hand accounts. Yes, there were some very strong policy disagreements. There was not, as far as I know, personal hostility.
      No people just got booted and banned with threads locked for making the wrong observations.
      Oh, stop. You got a time-out or two for being a dick. Just like a bunch of other people. And just like you're doing now, if in a slightly less obnoxious tone.

      There are less than 3 dozen people on the planet who actually have the experience to comment on the things you're alleging happened between the old guard and the new management. You are not one of them.

      Repetition of unsubstantiated crap is probably more responsible for the "reputation" you claim than any actual issues. That's not to suggest that problems have never existed, of course. It simply means that they were never what you make them out to have been.

      Here's something for you to consider: Anyone who makes a conscious effort to manipulate SERPs is, by definition, a scammer. They may be playing by the "rules," but that doesn't make their work any less deceptive.

      Your entire profession is, by its very nature, a con game played on the public through Google's algorithms.

      Mote. Timber. Your stone to throw?

      Freelancer owns the place. They get to make the rules.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author nik0
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Oh, stop. You got a time-out or two for being a dick
        Couldn't have said it better


        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Here's something for you to consider: Anyone who makes a conscious effort to manipulate SERPs is, by definition, a scammer. They may be playing by the "rules," but that doesn't make their work any less deceptive.

        Your entire profession is, by its very nature, a con game played on the public through Google's algorithms.
        Lol, what, where?

        SEO as a service is a scam? I think most of us explain pretty decently about what we have to offer, and then it's up to the customer whether THEY want to "scam/con" Google.

        Everyone has their own responsibilities and it would be very ignorant of people not to be aware that there are some risks attached to it. Sure we can yell best quality service, Google safe, blablabla, but the main point is that Google don't want us to build any links so whatever we yell should be taken with a grain of salt.

        Funny you pick SEO as an example, obvious cause this post is aimed at Mike, but what about all these other threads that make you $10k in 30 days, imo that looks much more like a scam as 99.99 percent of people will never achieve that. Sure you're not in charge of such things and not happy with it either but when we call out scams there are some real scams on this forum, and PLENTY of them.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

          Funny you pick SEO as an example, obvious cause this post is aimed at Mike, but what about all these other threads that make you $10k in 30 days,
          Haven't you figured it out? Those are not as deceptive and scammy (Google being their higher power eeerrr FTC not so much) . One wonders why someone would not on ethical grounds withdraw themselves from what they consider to be INHERENTLY scam related services all these years given the company they work for makes money off of offering SEO services and has an entire SEO section.

          Not enough moral resolve to quit?

          Anyway I have confidence new management can be more morally coherent and not make terribly sweeping generalizations based on emotion rather than logic..
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          • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            ...Anyway I have confidence new management can be more morally coherent and not make terribly sweeping generalizations based on emotion rather than logic..
            It would appear, from the tone and content of your posts in this thread, that you are doing exactly what you condemn. It is patently obvious that you have personal issues with Paul and maybe some of the other former WF mods and are hoping that the new owners right the wrongs you think you've suffered.

            You've aligned yourself with the new guard, and that's fine. They own the place. But given the new direction the WF in general is headed, you may have strapped yourself to a slowly sinking ship.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              the funniest thing I have possible ever read on WF
              I see a couple people staying out of the "new mod" conversations - their way of being huffy and self righteous. And then there will be a few looking for one last opportunity to claim they've been treated unfairly. Some nurse their resentment like it was a golden nugget to pull out and admire on a regular basis.

              Look at the bright side - there's new management that might show more patience for your rants. There's a flood of newbies to buy your stuff. It's all good.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                Look at the bright side - there's new management that might show more patience for your rants.
                Even brighter prospects of sunshine Kay. They may lose patience with all your whining against them on their own property especially since Paul has reminded them of what a small group relative to the whole forum you are

                There's a flood of newbies to buy your stuff. It's all good.
                why wouldn't it be? Marketing forum - remember?
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

              It would appear, from the tone and content of your posts in this thread, that you are doing exactly what you condemn. It is patently obvious that you have personal issues with Paul and maybe some of the other former WF mods and are hoping that the new owners right the wrongs you think you've suffered.
              Your bias is showing but its not surprising. I expect to take the heat (if I even call it that) from all you guys by not torching new ownership. Paul made a very personal attack even going waaaay off topic to claim my entire profession is a scam and everyone in it is dishonest (him as well he seems oblivious because he's been part of a forum that takes money from promoting it). Why in this thread? simple and obvious - because I support ownership and think they should be given a chance.

              I could reel attacks against ownership and he'd probably be giving me thanks or at the least have no issue. If you call me responding to that personal attack as me doing what I condemn then you are clueless as to what I condemn and I can safely dismiss your assessment. I've never advocated someone not answering a personal attack. Claiming I shouldn't and am violating some ethos by doing so is just more of this cronyism and good old buy network I referred to.

              You've aligned yourself with the new guard, and that's fine. They own the place. But given the new direction the WF in general is headed, you may have strapped yourself to a slowly sinking ship.
              The point at which people become cheer leaders and gleeful prophets of doom for the failure of the forum rather than trying to find constructive ways forward sorry - is the time they should just step off the ship. Respect the ownership of the site you are on. Thats a simple point of manners I was raised with

              I have seen alaister reach out , reverse previous decisions where he could and ask for suggestions almost non stop. This idea that all was well and the direction of the forum was all great before it s just total and absolute malarkey.

              So aligning myself with WF as it now exists is the new sin? Sheesh you guys are in deep aren't you? who has the blow torch next. My flame retardant suit is working pretty well.
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              • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                ...Still some people have served for a long time and have done the community a great service (some not so much)...

                ...rather than on the issue of their being let go which again I think many should have seen coming and at least in some cases does have benefit.
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Your bias is showing but its not surprising. I expect to take the heat (if I even call it that) from all you guys by not torching new ownership. Paul made a very personal attack even going waaaay off topic to claim my entire profession is a scam and everyone in it is dishonest (him as well he seems oblivious because he's been part of a forum that takes money from promoting it). Why in this thread? simple and obvious - because I support ownership and think they should be given a chance.
                I'm not biased, just observational. I observed that your posts display a degree of animosity toward the old mods, illustrated by the bold text in your initial post in this thread, and continuing on in others.

                BTW, a lot of people think the SEO 'profession' is littered with scammers. Whether you fit the shoe or not, I have no idea. Nor do I care. You do seem awfully defensive about it, though.

                ... If you call me responding to that personal attack as me doing what I condemn then you are clueless as to what I condemn and I can safely dismiss your assessment. I've never advocated someone not answering a personal attack. Claiming I shouldn't and am violating some ethos by doing so is just more of this cronyism and good old buy network I referred to.
                Didn't say you shouldn't respond to a personal attack if you think you ought to. But as I pointed out above, your posts before Paul posted pretty much made your animosity obvious. Animosity is emotional, not logical.

                The point at which people become cheer leaders and gleeful prophets of doom for the failure of the forum rather than trying to find constructive ways forward sorry - is the time they should just step off the ship. Respect the ownership of the site you are on. Thats a simple point of manners I was raised with.
                It's not our job any longer to 'find constructive ways forward'. The new ownership has made that pretty obvious.

                I have seen alaister reach out , reverse previous decisions where he could and ask for suggestions almost non stop. This idea that all was well and the direction of the forum was all great before it s just total and absolute malarkey.
                I, for one, never said it was 'great' before, but it has obviously taken a turn toward becoming an incarnation of DigitalPoint. If you are happy with that and want to cheer it on, knock yourself out.

                So aligning myself with WF as it now exists is the new sin? Sheesh you guys are in deep aren't you? who has the blow torch next. My flame retardant suit is working pretty well.
                Your posts remind me of a trod-upon corporate toady gloating because a new faction has taken over and is stamping out remnants of the old.

                Kind of funny, really.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                  I'm not biased, just observational. I observed that your posts display a degree of animosity toward the old mods, illustrated by the bold text in your initial post in this thread,
                  I could and probably would respond more to your post but gratefully I don't need to. Anyone can scroll up and see my initial post in this thread was a suggestion to give the old mods a designation of honor and special perks. the fact that I don't think all the mods did the same level of a job changes that how? and where does the requirement that all in any endeavor perform at the same level come from? fantasy land? . Having started off with a straight up and up bare face lie you've discredited yourself and proven your bias. thanks for the time saver. Like they say never bury your lead and you did it well.

                  So far the only constructive thing offered in this thread has been my suggestion to give the old mods a designation and some perks to show appreciation. The rest of you are just whining as you have in almost all other threads like this.

                  all this stumping the ground and crying because someone else bought your playground and makes the rules is just childish so I don't need to respond to much more. You've lost your power/influence and that is what most of this griping separate from the notification issue (the ONLY real issue) is about.
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                • Profile picture of the author rhinocl
                  There seem to be a lot of changes happening that real have no benefit for either Freelancer or the forum members. Perhaps Alastair feels the need to impress a superior. However it is very difficult with a forum that has been up as long as this one and as successfull as this one to have even 50% of changes have a positive effect after you analyze them. This is just one more thing that might have been better left alone. The old moderators knew the subject matter and the users and the difference in culture between e.g. the copywriting forum and the main forum. The new ones won't. It would have been better to phase this in gradually.

                  The domain marketplace is a perfect example of something that was introduced with way too little planning and testing. Please slow down on making changes. If there isn't a strong reason to change something then it is better left alone--just ask Coca Cola.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Mike,
                    the people sniping at Alaister and ownership in here aren't dicks right?
                    Some of them probably are. I haven't seen any of the "old" mods sniping in a personal fashion. (Usual caveat: It could have happened without me seeing it. But it would surprise me.)

                    Being a dick is a matter of style, by the way. Has nothing to do with morality. It's also not against the rules.
                    nope never was banned or given time out.
                    I sit corrected.

                    Sounded like that was what you were saying earlier. If you were talking about others you felt were "booted or banned" improperly, that's a whole different discussion.
                    you are affronted that anyone would defend ownership
                    I don't know where you get that idea. Seriously. No-one would be happier than me to see them succeed wildly here. I've done what little I can to help them in that direction.

                    Disagreeing over policy is not the same thing as wishing them to fail.
                    even deleting criticism of some of the more questionable - well what some not so insulated in thought as yourself - would in fact call real cons
                    The rules for commenting on offers are pretty clear. If you take a look through the WSO section, you'll find rather a lot of criticisms that remained untouched. The overwhelming majority of threads that are approved never see a moderator's involvement beyond that.

                    I never had anything to do with approving paid ads here. That said, no-one has spent more time and energy hunting down scammers and trolls in the paid ad sections than I have.

                    I've lobbied for years, publicly and privately, to get promises of specific results prohibited from any of the ad sections. That was the one of the first suggestions I made to Alaister, and I think that would have ended a huge chunk of the offers most commonly objected to.
                    Not enough moral resolve to quit?
                    That's one way to look at it. Another is that one could choose to stick with it and do what they could in an active way, rather than just letting it all go to hell or leaving it on someone else's shoulders.

                    A matter of one's perspective, I think. I went with the one I believed would be most constructive. The fact that you can't do everything doesn't mean you shouldn't do something.

                    I should clarify one point. I believe off-page SEO is deceptive. My opinions, however, have never been the basis for policy here. And I'm quite aware of the arguments on the other side. I can see a rational person choosing them. That doesn't mean I think it's the right choice, but I can understand it.

                    By the way... I like your suggestion about a "meet and greet" thread or event to get to know the new mods. The ones I've had the pleasure of interacting with are impressive people. I think you'd like them.


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                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      That's one way to look at it. Another is that one could choose to stick with it and do what they could in an active way, rather than just letting it all go to hell or leaving it on someone else's shoulders.
                      Paul
                      Actually among the offered options its the only one that makes any sense whatsoever. to claim that you oversaw, grew , promoted and sought to cause to strive an establishment that foisted scams (your definition of SEo) on the public just to take the load off someone elses shoulder or improve anything is morally incoherent. WF was probably the number one place to promote, announce and sell link spam tools (which I railed against before this board ever banned it) and SEO was a major part of this board for many years you presided over it. That just makes your argument even weaker. So you were actively engaged in foisting a scam (by your definition of SEO) on the public.

                      I know you love to pontificate but i think you are just better off admitting you went to the totally off topic subject of SEo (in a thread that had no mention of it) for no other purpose than to launch an ad hom scammer claim against me because you didn't like my point of view. At least be honest because thats obvious.

                      In a thread implying all kinds of things against Ownership that the only one you bothered to classify as a dick and involved in a profession that was inherently a scam was the one person who disagreed with your friends assessment makes things rather clear Paul. or let me guess your friends putdowns of ownership were stylistically better than my defense of ownership? Will that be the narrative?

                      You can try and smooth it out after the fact but as they say...you can fool some of the people some of the time and....well you know the saying.

                      Meanwhile congrats on the extra free time. Seriously I've done a little moderation on other boards much smaller and it IS a drain.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                  BTW, a lot of people think the SEO 'profession' is littered with scammers. Whether you fit the shoe or not, I have no idea. Nor do I care. You do seem awfully defensive about it, though.
                  LOl...I missed this before. You and Paul are vying for the crown. Nothing more entertaining than an internet marketer claiming another profession is thought to be littered with scammers.

                  You all have a good time. You certainly have given me a good laugh today.
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                So aligning myself with WF as it now exists is the new sin?
                Not at all. I do hope that WF isn't your main source of income though, because when the death rattle comes and it's redirected to freelancer, those who pinned their fortunes solely here are in trouble.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                  Not at all. I do hope that WF isn't your main source of income though, because when the death rattle comes and it's redirected to freelancer, those who pinned their fortunes solely here are in trouble.
                  Thanks for your concern Susan but in case you didn't know the better SEO clients do not darken the doors of WF. What you see in my sig is my WF facing business which I keep separate from mainline SEO. Out in the rest of the world it actually reflects badly if you even mention here (thats why it was sooo funny to read two posters TRY to accuse the entire SEO industry).

                  Still if all a number of you are going to do is express hopes/project certainties of how you think the place will flop Why pin even your free time here anymore much less advertise services?

                  Flee the wrath to come from now. Since Steve claims its no longer your job to forge a way forward then perhaps get out of the way lest it fall faster than you thought.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    Her name is Suzanne - I think you know that.

                    I've heard only good things about the new mods (and I heard those compliments from the 'previous' mods).

                    I think it was awkward and heavy handed to make this announcement before all the volunteer mods had been notified...and I still think that.

                    Only one person has felt compelled to post almost a dozen times in order to be as rude as possible to as many people as possible.
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                    Saving one dog may not change the world - but forever changes the world of one dog.

                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      Only one person has felt compelled to post almost a dozen times in order to be as rude as possible to as many people as possible.
                      Lets see Kay... You have 6 people attacking you more than once because of your point of view and you reply to them ....hmmm yeah you could go 12 easy. Do the maths. Multiplication thingy. I like the english redfiinitions too. I get called a dick and a scammer and I am the one being rude. Who knew? OT forum new English I guess.

                      BTW So I wrote Susan. Thats the best you have got?. Why? is Susan now a pejorative?

                      What did Susans of the world do now?

                      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                      Your resemblance to the southern end of a northbound horse is unreal.
                      Steve I thought of explaining how that comment might not speak well for your intellectual capacities of creative speech but I realized you probably wouldn't understand it. so carry on.

                      aaaaand on that high point of cognitive prowess I'll call it a wrap. Its been real...

                      until the next whine fest
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      I've heard only good things about the new mods (and I heard those compliments from the 'previous' mods).
                      I've heard the same thing and this thread isn't a reflection on the new mods. It's a reflection of the really cheesy way of not telling people who have worked on your behalf for free for months before making a public announcement.
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    Thanks for your concern Susan but in case you didn't know the better SEO clients do not darken the doors of WF. What you see in my sig is my WF facing business which I keep separate from mainline SEO. Out in the rest of the world it actually reflects badly if you even mention here (thats why it was sooo funny to read two posters TRY to accuse the entire SEO industry).
                    Well, good for you then. Glad you have that covered.

                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    Still if all a number of you are going to do is express hopes/project certainties of how you think the place will flop Why pin even your free time here anymore much less advertise services?

                    Flee the wrath to come from now. Since Steve claims its no longer your job to forge a way forward then perhaps get out of the way lest it fall faster than you thought.
                    Because I tend to do pretty much whatever I want to with my spare time. I have friends here in Off Topic that I really enjoy exchanging friendly barbs with on the latest conspiracy theories and ebola and other breaking news and veiled references to politics. So ... if it's ok with you ... and even if it's not, I'll continue to do as I wish. Thanks for asking though.

                    But, like you, I have moved copies of my sales offers elsewhere and should the ones here in the WF not return their listing fee, I'll discontinue them.

                    PS: As Kay referenced, my name is Suzanne. It's written under my user name and has been for years.
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          • Profile picture of the author nik0
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Haven't you figured it out? Those are not as deceptive and scammy (Google being their higher power eeerrr FTC not so much) . One wonders why someone would not on ethical grounds withdraw themselves from what they consider to be INHERENTLY scam related services all these years given the company they work for makes money off of offering SEO services and has an entire SEO section.

            Not enough moral resolve to quit?

            Anyway I have confidence new management can be more morally coherent and not make terribly sweeping generalizations based on emotion rather than logic..
            You pretty much hit the nail, one of Paul's responses was that he wasn't happy with such offers either but that he was not the one in charge.

            If he really was morally against it at such high level he could've quit indeed, though he made a reasonable defense saying if you can't fix it all you can still fix some things. Just wish he had taken better action in that below mentioned case, which was as clear as it could be.

            Remember gearmonkey with his PR7-PR9 page links?
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

              If he really was morally against it at such high level he could've quit indeed, though he made a reasonable defense saying if you can't fix it all you can still fix some things.
              Like I said I am done for now with the crew from the mutiny on the bounty (the notification issue was solid and well taken but as usual it had to go beyond that) but since I haven't seen you in the crew I'll respond to you

              Whats reasonable about that defense? Its a total crock. If you believed that SEO is a scam and conning the public would you have been promoting, recommending and heralding as a great place the forum that was feasting off and enabling software sales of scrapebox, articlekevo, senukex, magic submitter, ultimate demon, link robot, SEO link robot and on and on? Thats not even to mention the countless training products to use them or the services based on using them or even all the rest of SEO products and multitudes off MMO offers based on SEO? Shucks at one point SEO related products had to have been at least half what was offered. No if you even worked there you'd be awfully quiet about how great the place was. How are you fixing by promoting that which is enabling the scamming of the public?

              Any one that believes SEO is inherently a scam (which of course it isn't and I am sure new ownership doesn't think it is so has no moral dilemma) and yet was advancing WF that was bow to stern full of the alleged scamming of the public and still promotes lots of it to this day has no right to even talk about scamming in a self righteous tone because it means they compromised their own values to still standby it and help enable the conning of the public for many years heralding it as a great place.

              Lol... the sheer audacity of the false charge is sweeping given the circumstances.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        .Oh, stop. You got a time-out or two for being a dick. Just like a bunch of other people. And just like you're doing now, if in a slightly less obnoxious tone.
        Paul name the time and place if you want to debate me on it. this is hardly the spot. Meanwhile thank you for unmasking what you mean by people being a dick - because what I am doing now is having a different point of view than you and supporting the new ownership. I mean the people sniping at Alaister and ownership in here aren't dicks right? peachy self serving definition but you always could do a mean spin to get the morality out to where you wanted it to go..

        As for things you don't know - nope never was banned or given time out. Get your facts straight before you claim others don't have them. I was told not to go to a section after disagreeing with a discussion of your cohorts to the tune of "why do only african Americans riot". Take that as badge of honor to this day. In that context I suppose not being a racist was being a "dick".

        There are less than 3 dozen people on the planet who actually have the experience to comment on the things you're alleging happened between the old guard and the new management. You are not one of them.
        Sorry that won't work and frankly is ridiculous. I am not alleging anything that is not a fact. I never said you couldn't spin it though. Those 3 dozen people have posted too often in public to claim their present stances toward new management is a secret . Try something logical..

        Here's something for you to consider: Anyone who makes a conscious effort to manipulate SERPs is, by definition, a scammer. They may be playing by the "rules," but that doesn't make their work any less deceptive.
        Yes Paul All SEOs are scammers since all SEOs try to ahem "manipulate serps" . Something about a pot and kettle come to mind. I wonder why?

        Your entire profession is, by its very nature, a con game played on the public through Google's algorithms.
        ROFL...that s the funniest thing I have possible ever read on WF!! (also shows how you have completely insulated your mind against outside views of WF) My entire profession as a SEO is by its very nature a con game and you presided over the WSO section even deleting criticism of some of the more questionable - well what some not so insulated in thought as yourself - would in fact call real cons? You are like a man living in a glass house whose convinced himself by repetition of his admonishments that its made of concrete.

        Oh my......WF comedy at its finest. I've never been happier at the management change. I doubt they would ever be so incoherent in their emotional accusations. SO far I haven't seen them make any of those anyway. Very graceful under fire.

        Meanwhile we might want to stick to the subject of this thread than terribly feeble attempts to attack all SEOs to try to get to me because you are affronted that anyone would defend ownership. I dunno.....The new mods might not find it on topic.
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  • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Alaister View Post


    with the aim of growing the Warrior Forum userbase, ensuring quality in conversation
    Looking forward to that then.
    Be sure to let us know when that's scheduled to start.
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
    I went to moderate the competition section, couldn't find the controls, then found this post while searching for answers. Sigh. Just...sigh.
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  • Profile picture of the author abdul786
    Surprised. I thought the basic rule was to keep the things intact with the business which made it a success.

    I'm afraid the things which made this place "Warrior Forum" are disappearing too quick.

    Well, the community-to-marketplace transition is underway.

    Abdul
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    Wow. Somebody really frosted your cookies somewhere up the line, didn't they? Your resemblance to the southern end of a northbound horse is unreal.
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    The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

    Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Here's the problem with the new moderation update.

    In the past, sub-forums had dedicated mods that were interested in each individual sub-forum. We could easily spot a self promoting spammer.

    Today, there's no sub-forum mods, you have mods only watching the New Post & the slim chance of watching the mod forum where a problem thread would be reported. Notice I said slim chance because I know how they usually get ignored & pile up which only started after the forum was sold.

    In other words, eliminating sub-forum mods is costing Warrior Forum unpaid advertising. I was under the impression the goal here was to turn a profit. Fast forward a year from now & the unpaid advertising (self promoting spam) won't be a pretty sight for forum members to sift through. It's already happening, go look at the SEO sub-forum, I'm sure the other sub-forums will follow.

    I don't have a problem with moderation being moved in house but really from what I see you've eliminated moderation instead of replacing volunteer moderators. At the very least don't cheap out, hire some dedicated sub-forum moderators.
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    We had the technology.
    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Here's the problem with the new moderation update.

      In the past, sub-forums had dedicated mods that were interested in each individual sub-forum. We could easily spot a self promoting spammer.

      Today, there's no sub-forum mods, you have mods only watching the New Post & the slim chance of watching the mod forum where a problem thread would be reported. Notice I said slim chance because I know how they usually get ignored & pile up which only started after the forum was sold.

      In other words, eliminating sub-forum mods is costing Warrior Forum unpaid advertising. I was under the impression the goal here was to turn a profit. Fast forward a year from now & the unpaid advertising (self promoting spam) won't be a pretty sight for forum members to sift through. It's already happening, go look at the SEO sub-forum, I'm sure the other sub-forums will follow.

      I don't have a problem with moderation being moved in house but really from what I see you've eliminated moderation instead of replacing volunteer moderators. At the very least don't cheap out, hire some dedicated sub-forum moderators.
      You couldn't be more right and of course are in a position to know. I have opened up a lot of threads in sub-forums and the task there is not to find something useful to say ... it's cleanup. Constant. It's overrun with spammers and I'm very tired of opening all those threads and doing a clean sweep cleanup by reporting them. The spammers rule the subforums now, and that is precisely why there isn't any conversations worth joining. Between the outright blatant spammers and the "2014 I just joined and I know everything and I have a link in my sig spammers," the subforums have gone to waste.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        quality self promotion in the SEO section.
        Fixed that for ya
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Fixed that for ya
          Nope...ask any regular member in the SEO section if the Forum wasn't better say four years ago. Sorry that kind of bursts the bubble that quality decline is all new ownerships fault but Still.....I guess its a compliment of some sort to have someone hanging on to my every word.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Nope...ask any regular member in the SEO section if the Forum wasn't better say four years ago. Sorry that kind of bursts the bubble that quality decline is all new ownerships fault but Still.....I guess its a compliment of some sort to have someone hanging on to my every word.
            I wouldn't bother to ask a bunch of self promoters about the "quality" of the SEO forum. It's a mess and always has been. But yeah, I'm hanging on your every word, especially the two posts that said you were outta here. lol.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              I wouldn't bother to ask a bunch of self promoters about the "quality" of the SEO forum. It's a mess and always has been. But yeah, I'm hanging on your every word, especially the two posts that said you were outta here. lol.
              What can I say. If someone goes to the point of baiting and using reverse psychology to get me to stay how can I be as cold as to deny them their emotional need of my presence? Love changes everything.

              Meanwhile may I ask who put the sig link in your signature ? someone else or your SELF? If someone else whose your promoter? Don King? he's retired and now does sigs I guess.... lol.

              Self promoters critiquing self promoters, Imers claiming other industries are full of scammers and people promoting places that sell SEO "scams" claiming they are free from scamming. Is there some water everyone on the HMS bounty is all sipping from?
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                What can I say. If someone goes to the point of baiting and using reverse psychology to get me to stay how can I be as cold as to deny them their emotional need of my presence? Love changes everything.

                Meanwhile may I ask who put the sig link in your signature ? someone else or your SELF? If someone else whose your promoter? Don King? he's retired and now does sigs I guess.... lol.

                Self promoters critiquing self promoters, Imers claiming other industries are full of scammers and people promoting places that sell SEO "scams" claiming they are free from scamming. Is there some water everyone on the HMS bounty is all sipping from?
                Perhaps you haven't done any member moderation, so therefore, really don't get what self promotion is vs paying for your advertising in this forum. My signature is paid for. My ads are paid for and in the appropriate forum. The self promotion going on in the subforums are designed to eliminate the cost to the poster of paying for advertising here. It involves dropping hints to visit your signature, mentioning your company name over and over > those are the more covert ones, but the really blatant ones are the thousands of just flat out self promotional links dropped to your their own products and services and self promotional text in posts. Fortunately, I seriously doubt that you will get your wish that self promotion will be allowed in SEO. Freelancer is a for profit company and it is not beneficial to them to allow people to advertise without paying.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                  Perhaps you haven't done any member moderation, so therefore, really don't get what self promotion is vs paying for your advertising in this forum. My signature is paid for. My ads are paid for and in the appropriate forum
                  earth to Suzanne so are many of the sigs bought and paid for in the SEO forum. I sported one for two years so as usual your insinuations are full of garbage .

                  The self promotion going on in the subforums are designed to eliminate the cost to the poster of paying for advertising here.
                  Your ability to read with comprehension fails so cutely when you see my name due to your great anger that I support new ownership. This is also what happens when you interject into a conversation you don't know squat about - as we both know you don't have the first clue of the threads I was referring to.

                  This why I addressed Yukon's post because he does know that I am not talking about dropping company name, link, references to your own WSO or anything you just mentioned in your ignorance but to deleting threads based on the possibility they MAY be promotional as indicated and your glasses fogged over when I wrote

                  the very idea that Kyle MIGHT develop some rep and have his sig highlighted would lead to the deletion.
                  See if you knew squat about the SEo section you would know that there was a possibility under self promotion considerations that if you even posted a case study in the wrong way or discussed a strategy it could be deleted because it might be seen as an attempt to gain a following for a subsequent product launch. I have no issue with limiting self promotion as you described it but referred to DRACONIAN measures which if you bothered to look up the word and inform your ignorance means excessive - in this context seeing self promotion everywhere even when it might not be there.

                  How else does Yukon know I am not talking about skirting advertising on WF? because as a mod he has most likely seen me REPORT such things.

                  I am not the one that has a problem with freelancer being for profit (as if thats new for WF - lol) and neither wish nor think they should allow people to advertise freely. Shucks I even understand their not wanting to link to competing services like you drone on they should. I am fine with that

                  Better luck next time
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    earth to Suzanne so are many of the sigs bought and paid for in the SEO forum. I sported one for two years so as usual your insinuations are full of garbage not so sweet child

                    Your ability to read with comprehension fails so cutely when you see my name due to your great anger that I support new ownership. This is also what happens when you interject into a conversation you don't know squat about - as we both know you don't have the first clue of the threads I was referring to.
                    I could care less about the threads specifically that you are referring to and I am not referring to signatures when I talk about self promotion. Signatures are not self promotion in the sense that we are discussing here ... capish? Probably not. You are rather dense.

                    But I know exactly the type of thread you are talking about, as I have seen and reported many of them, and they have promptly disappeared after doing so. They make an "oh so informative" thread by an "oh so guroooey like" person, and drop all the self promotional info in the post along with self promotional videos. Sorry ... I don't care who is doing it ... it's self promotion and thus far, it has not been allowed if reported. Who knows ... rules may change. But they haven't yet and I really don't see freelancer allowing people to litter up the subforums with free advertising ... at least not deliberately allowing it. The lack of moderation in those forums is another matter altogether.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                      I could care less about the threads specifically that you are referring to.
                      Yawn....an admission by a poster that she doesn't care whether she understood the conversation she was interjecting into was about or not. That says it all right there.

                      But I know exactly the type of thread you are talking about, as I have seen and reported many of them, and they have promptly disappeared after doing so. They make an "oh so informative" thread by an "oh so guroooey like" person, and drop all the self promotional info in the post along with self promotional videos
                      bzzzzzzz....wrong again reported those myself. Lets face it. you know exactly squat and are clueless about what I am referring to in the SEO section but just sniping because of your great hatred of my support for new ownership.

                      I've been called a dick, a scammer because I do SEO and you are trying hard to insinuate that I want to avoid paying WF advertising all because I am a senior member that supports management and disagreed with Sal trying to claim all was rosy before new ownership

                      You can all have a cow - well so to speak . In my encounters I have found Alaister to be less arrogant and kinder than the whole of you put together. maybe since I don't know him well that may change a bit but seen you guys in action long enough
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                      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                        ... but just sniping because of your great hatred of my support for new ownership.
                        That's too funny. I don't give what you support or don't support a second thought. Seems I forgot, until I was just reminded via pm, what a big black sinkhole conversing with you is, so I'll bid you goodnight.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Mike,

                        I'm not going to argue the merits of one personal choice over another. I know there'd be a lot more people getting scammed here, especially in the JV section, if I'd gone with your option. I'm happy with the results of my decision on that.

                        As far as the question of all those link spamming tools... Offers for them or related training haven't been allowed here for several years. The relevant part of the WSO rules is:
                        You may not sell any product here that endorses, enables, or facilitates the sending of unsolicited bulk messages via email, private messaging systems, or other channels meant for one-to-one communication, or the spamming of forums, blogs, chat systems, or social networking sites.
                        Guess who wrote that up and got it approved? And guess which types of software he had in mind for that last part when he did it.

                        Oh... And if you can find anywhere outside of this forum where I've promoted it in the last 5 years or so, I'd be surprised. I've been fairly consistent in keeping my business separate from anyone else's, other than a few affiliate recommendations. (None of them pointing here, by the way.) Haven't offered any paid WSOs here for years for the same reason.


                        Paul
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                        .
                        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

                        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
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                        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                          Oh... And if you can find anywhere outside of this forum where I've promoted it in the last 5 years or so, I'd be surprised.
                          Paul
                          Paul just for your clarity none of that answers any of my points nor do I consider accurate but i'll end it there.
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                          • Profile picture of the author discrat
                            Wow,
                            A lot of people, particularly in the beginning of this Thread, coming down hard on New Ownership.

                            This is typical stuff that happens in a Business. New guard comes in and the old guard gets pissed off because things seemed to have changed or someone's feelings get hurt etc..etc..

                            To me it is kind of ironic. Freelancer is just doing what many of the same people in here who are bitching and whining about are trying to do and that is........Marketing their Services in a prudent and strategic manner and making Money at doing it.

                            Nothing wrong with that at all. You gotta Luv Capitalism and the free markets

                            Maybe many of You here should take a lesson from Freelancer
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                      • Profile picture of the author Alaister
                        Thank you for openly discussing this change and providing feedback on what has happened. The decision to have the forum moderated by our staff moderators was definitely not an easy one and is in no way a reflection of the old moderators. As I mentioned in my original post, they have done an amazing job and we truly appreciate their dedication over the years.

                        It's really great that you have all shared your thoughts, thanked the old moderators and discussed the changes. However this thread has started to go of topic and divide to community which is of no benefit to anyone.

                        Please keep further discussions here on topic. I've also sent a PM message to some of you.

                        We hope you can give our new moderators and staff the same respect you did for the old ones.
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                        • Profile picture of the author danieljb
                          Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

                          Thank you for openly discussing this change and providing feedback on what has happened. The decision to have the forum moderated by our staff moderators was definitely not an easy one and is in no way a reflection of the old moderators. As I mentioned in my original post, they have done an amazing job and we truly appreciate their dedication over the years.

                          It's really great that you have all shared your thoughts, thanked the old moderators and discussed the changes. However this thread has started to go of topic and divide to community which is of no benefit to anyone.

                          Please keep further discussions here on topic. I've also sent a PM message to some of you.

                          We hope you can give our new moderators and staff the same respect you did for the old ones.
                          Thank you all for your input.
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    • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Here's the problem with the new moderation update.

      In the past, sub-forums had dedicated mods that were interested in each individual sub-forum. We could easily spot a self promoting spammer.

      Today, there's no sub-forum mods, you have mods only watching the New Post & the slim chance of watching the mod forum where a problem thread would be reported. Notice I said slim chance because I know how they usually get ignored & pile up which only started after the forum was sold.

      In other words, eliminating sub-forum mods is costing Warrior Forum unpaid advertising. I was under the impression the goal here was to turn a profit. Fast forward a year from now & the unpaid advertising (self promoting spam) won't be a pretty sight for forum members to sift through. It's already happening, go look at the SEO sub-forum, I'm sure the other sub-forums will follow.

      I don't have a problem with moderation being moved in house but really from what I see you've eliminated moderation instead of replacing volunteer moderators. At the very least don't cheap out, hire some dedicated sub-forum moderators.
      This was my point in another thread on the topic.

      I've stopped reporting threads and posts once I realized that the new mods didn't understand how aggressive self promotion worked or what it looked like. They thought it was purely about a few links in a post... Classic sign of the blind leading the blind.

      It's pointless to have a moderator in something like the SEO section if that person doesn't understand the history or players in that field.

      As I initially said, I understand the logic, but the flaw in it was either not seen by Alaister or had been not taken seriously enough... By the time it is figured out any attempt to correct will come too late or involve the wrong people in all likelihood.

      In the mean time, I get to watch a few good guys talk about the very few good topics that come up while everything else goes to hell.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by godoveryou View Post

        This was my point in another thread on the topic.

        I've stopped reporting threads and posts once I realized that the new mods didn't understand how aggressive self promotion worked or what it looked like. They thought it was purely about a few links in a post... Classic sign of the blind leading the blind.
        My Man Goy As I hope you know Ain't got nothing but love for you

        But heres the thing. There was a WILDLY self promotional thread in the SEO section that was there for several hours yesterday. Past mods were in there claiming it would never have been there o n their watch others were yucking it up basically saying the same. Back and forth conversation like I said - for hours(I think stretched over about 10-12 posts). So that would seem to back up your observation but

        I hit report........in a few minutes if it was there I saw it no more (unless i missed it but I checked more than once). Just like what happens in many forums it just took a report. Hasn't been the first time either I've done that in threads like that just like I did for the old mods - poof gone. So its pretty clear just as you suggested that there is complaining from people who won't even hit the report button. between that and snide comments on the board and even PMs and emails to me - Some WANT and can't wait for WF to burn and new management to fail

        Another ex mod justified a thread yesterday unlike any that we have ever had in the SEo section before - an OP half about a news report about a person and half a series of rumours and gripes about that same person, Discussion for OT forums (maybe) but never done in the SEO section before. I pointed out the FACT that we never had threads about people in the SEO section regardless if they did SEO. Its been one of the unspoken rules just like in the review section you can't make threads all about people rather than product- One of the justifications from the ex mod?- new management. So why not?

        Of course when such threads spiral out of control then the same people justifying it can say "see? bad mods". Self fulfilling prophecy

        Free speech is good stuff but there comes a point (and I am NOT saying YOUare at it) when heckling is just sabatoging the forum. Self promoting is bad and I report it but cheerleading/promoting the failing and burning of WF should be modded jsut like it used to be as well. I've seen people who just heckled vanish n the night

        In fact with all the talk in various circles on and off the board of people (not you)going elsewhere or maybe going elsewhere sometimes it reads like a "Pre launch promotion" for that new place.

        mod that under promotional as well.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Self promoting is bad and I report it but cheerleading/promoting the failing and burning of WF should be modded jsut like it used to be as well.
          Isn't that a bit of a disconnect. I agree with you about the new mods - they are doing well in my opinion and deserve support of the members here.

          But what you're saying is "old mods are behaving badly" but the the forum "should be modded just like it used to be".

          From what I've seen the new folks are perfectly capable of deciding what THEY will allow. However, it's also true that questions asking if they still want member mods have gone unanswered in several threads. For that reason, I report only obvious infractions inside threads where they might be missed.

          What is concerning - and what may hurt membership - is loss of functionality of the forum. On Sept 29, search function stopped working. A month gone now and no indication it will be fixed. May be one reason so many old threads are being bumped these days - can't find new ones.

          Makes it harder on the new mods and makes the forum less useful for members, buyers and sellers.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            From what I've seen the new folks are perfectly capable of deciding what THEY will allow. However, it's also true that questions asking if they still want member mods have gone unanswered in several threads. For that reason, I report only obvious infractions inside threads where they might be missed.
            I agree that the lack of a public answer by an authoritative figure is puzzling. They either want our help or don't. It's really just a yes or no answer.

            However, after I wrote in a thread that was later deleted that I had turned to intentionally avoiding reporting spam due to the lack of an answer, a new mod sent me a PM to, amongst other things, ask that I continue to report them. So I have. But it would be nice to have a definite answer.

            Mark
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              My experience has been the opposite - I have not received a direct reply to ANY question I've asked. Not one.

              At the same time I see a few members who seem (or at least claim) to have inside info or a dialog with management.

              I know the new mods are good - I'm sure the new owners have good intentions for this forum. Failure to connect with members on their level is a big mistake in my opinion. To be blunt - it's starting to feel like an "old boy's club" in here and we got rid of that attitude years ago.

              I'm not bashing - I know where the door is. Just pointing out what I see and how I feel about it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
                Kay, not sure if you are referring to me but I'm nothing special. I just lucked up and happened to get an explanation of a deleted post - that's all.

                Mark

                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                My experience has been the opposite - I have not received a direct reply to ANY question I've asked. Not one.

                At the same time I see a few members who seem (or at least claim) to have inside info or a dialog with management.

                I know the new mods are good - I'm sure the new owners have good intentions for this forum. Failure to connect with members on their level is a big mistake in my opinion. To be blunt - it's starting to feel like an "old boy's club" in here and we got rid of that attitude years ago.

                I'm not bashing - I know where the door is. Just pointing out what I see and how I feel about it.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  No Mark - not referring to you at all. Just a general comment and I'm not the only oldie here that's thought it. Those who seem to claim special status may be whistling in the for all I know but I've not seen the claims refuted.

                  I'm happy to see answers are being provided and support given. Gives me hope this place will keep growing and improving.
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              • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                My experience has been the opposite - I have not received a direct reply to ANY question I've asked. Not one.

                At the same time I see a few members who seem (or at least claim) to have inside info or a dialog with management.

                I know the new mods are good - I'm sure the new owners have good intentions for this forum. Failure to connect with members on their level is a big mistake in my opinion. To be blunt - it's starting to feel like an "old boy's club" in here and we got rid of that attitude years ago.

                I'm not bashing - I know where the door is. Just pointing out what I see and how I feel about it.
                I know exactly where you are coming from. It is that "Connection" that is missing. To put it another way, there is a difference between simply occupying a car while it travels vs embracing the vehicle as you get precise steering feedback and a feeling for the enjoyable limits of the suspension travel while blissfully accelerating through an interesting and stimulating road course.

                But that's an overall atmosphere problem that while directly attached to the moderator changes is actually more systemic of the nature of the new management. That's not the end of the world by any means by the way, but it is not in their favor all the same. I could live with it myself...

                The issues I'm discussing probably aren't able to be applied forum-wide to be honest. In digital marketing you have specialized skill sets and therefore niches. Each one of these niches are going to have distinct flows and patterns that normally take people years to really get familiar with.

                Sure, you can probably begin to recognize specific incidents or individual traits within a few months time, but to really have a solid understanding of how conversation is held on both a formal and informal level, that's something which takes longer to develop. SEO is probably the most nuanced of all of these niches discussed on WF.

                So while things like responding to questions or handling minor, obvious complaints quickly do speak well of the new management - that's just what it is, overall management.

                What's frustrating is having a group of guys that understand the nuances of a particular niche trying to interact with another group (new mods) who might be fine for overall management but are otherwise clueless about the details. Some of us will be insulted, some angry and others may not mind.

                However, it will take years for the new mods to understand the more granular elements of our conversations in order to really parse out editorial vs advertorial posts. While that is occurring, the guys that will be annoyed by the process will begin to fall away - and the reaction to that might be "Fine, if they don't want to be here then we don't want them here."

                The downside of that though, specifically with SEO is that there isn't a huge, vast wealth of talent to draw from. Of all of the members that actively participate on the subforum there are probably less than 10 that can contribute to meaningful, valuable conversation regularly.

                So what you will develop over those years is a bunch of newbies, a pile of pseudo-SEOs, a mass of sellers and maybe a few quality posters that stuck it out. But nobody with any real talent developed elsewhere is going to look at the discussions held by the remaining membership group I just described and say "Yeah, I want in on this forum!"

                This brings me back to my original point about accumulated depreciation.... while I applied it in terms of accounting, there is also a very serious talent and human expense that will occur - and it's not something that is easily purchased or can be acquired at a great rate.

                Having run a SEO forum of my own for several years, I have a pretty specific understanding on how difficult it can be to create the conditions to attract talented, insightful SEO members.

                What is occurring now is basically "Sudden death" in that forum... in my opinion, based on my extremely verifiable and widely known experience on the matter.
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Godoveryou,

                  Really well thought out explanation. Thank you.

                  There are a number of parts of the place that have their own unique and distinct cultures. SEO, copywriting, mobile marketing, and offline marketing stand out as the big ones. (OT, too, but that one is different in ways that any of the mods could learn and deal with pretty quickly.)

                  The SEO and copywriting sections had their own mods, who understood all the critical things you mentioned. They did just fine without much outside interference from the "run of the forum" mods. Mobile and offline have rarely needed any modding. They seem to do quite well on their own.

                  The thinking on those was simple: If those groups can handle their own stuff "in-house," leave them the hell alone. That worked because the active members had an investment in their communities.

                  And yeah, well over 90% of the process is simple. That stuff can be learned quickly and takes a small fraction of the time needed to moderate the place. The rest, as you noted, takes a bucketload of experience to get the hang of.

                  I'd suggest the new mods each take one section to learn thoroughly. Spend a certain amount of time each day just reading posts and getting to know the flow and culture in that group. Once they've got at least the basics down, they could then communicate them to others who have questions.

                  It's not a substitute for years of experience, but it can help cut down the learning curve. And it would keep everyone aware that there isn't just one culture here.

                  Some of that will have a high cost that can't be avoided at this point. There will be people who find the changes unacceptable, or just different enough that they're no longer feeling the same camaraderie they once did. And, as you say, some of those will be losses that aren't easily recovered from.

                  Still, the forum is a pretty large critter. Some of the sections could be built up pretty quickly with the right focus, and the overall system could improve at a fair pace. They have the people needed to do it, both in quantity and quality.

                  For that to happen, the feedback cycle is going to need to speed up. A lot. The very best intentions in the world won't change that. This is a real-time beast.


                  Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                So if that's the message in moderation, from the moderators - why bother pointing things out at all? I'm wasting my time, their time, the spammers time... screw it.
                My man sorry but you are overreacting and I will tell you exactly why - the new mods working on their own are still new to this and you must expect a learning curve. Its pretty obvious that that is all it is for the simple fact that there is just no way a corporation like freelancer investing millions and looking for profit (like all of us) is going to want or continue to allow free ads to be placed just because they have no links. Its just a nonstarter so it will be ironed out


                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                Failure to connect with members on their level is a big mistake in my opinion. To be blunt - it's starting to feel like an "old boy's club" in here and we got rid of that attitude years ago.
                Wow! Missed this before Kay. Its really illustrative of how relationships and perspectives can be very different so maybe we all should look at our perspectives because if you asked someone else. Say me. I would say we started getting rid of that a few days ago and the idea that it was years ago is really quite funny.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  That's why I said "in my opinion" - what I'm seeing, my experience, my observation, my impressions, etc.

                  I don't ask that anyone agree with me - but you don't get to tell me which of MY opinions and MY experiences are valid. That's YOUR opinion and you're welcome to it.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    That's why I said "in my opinion" - what I'm seeing, my experience, my observation, my impressions, etc.

                    I don't ask that anyone agree with me - but you don't get to tell me which of MY opinions and MY experiences are valid. That's YOUR opinion and you're welcome to it.
                    Try not to explode but Unfortunately/fortunately disagreeing with an opinion is as covered under free speech as stating one. Thats with or without a request. Kind of like you telling me there was a "disconnect" in my point without me asking.

                    P.S. you stated having got rid of "the club" years ago in words indicative of a fact. as such I was free to disagree and did. Thats all.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      There will always be the perception of an "old boys network" as long as there's a consistent philosophy included in the moderation process. Those who agree with it won't feel like the OBN exists, and those who don't are more likely to feel excluded, which suggests some deliberate intent that may or may not exist.

                      It's part of every social dynamic.

                      Sometimes it will be even less "official" in nature. Depending on the topic, Main Discussion has at least 3 separate OBNs, composed entirely of members who post most frequently and convincingly on those topics.

                      If the mod(s) and a majority of the active participants in any specific section agree, the perception will be inevitable. The intent, on the other hand, is a whole different discussion.


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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Isn't that a bit of a disconnect. I agree with you about the new mods - they are doing well in my opinion and deserve support of the members here.

            But what you're saying is "old mods are behaving badly" but the the forum "should be modded just like it used to be".
            The disconnect is in your mind Kay. I referred to one thing being modded as it was before not generally. Seeing how there is a back and forth in this very thread between Suzanne and I regarding me saying new rules should be less draconian in regard to what promotions is - all I can gather is that you have quite the active imagination.

            Two more things.

            A) I haven't read all the places you referred to but I am a little (not much) surprised to read that the question of whether member mods would still be needed was serious. The place I read it - I THINK earlier in this thread - it sounded sarcastic to me. Kind of "you took our mods so you still want us" kind of thing. I say that not to say it was definitely that but it might have been taken like that - protest question - my smart alecky kids might say "am I allowed to take out the garbage Dad....since I am um....grounded. (if you have smart alecky teenagers probably had one of those type questions ).

            The report button is still there and by numerous accounts the mods are monitoring reports and acting on them. The answer is kinda obvious.

            B) You never specified and it probably was not me but just in case -I am not aware of any non mod member with special contact with management. My own contact was very limited. I told a joke in a thread that alaister got (rare round these parts) and he PMed me to tell me it was funny. Very short conversation after that - the end. The idea that special connections or relationships are going to be forged with a corporation in charge is probably illusionary. I've seen some people think thats a minus but I like it. levels the playing field for everyone and removes friendship politics.
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            • Profile picture of the author discrat
              I can tell you I have nothing but praise for the new Mods.

              Not ONE time did I ever have a Mod in the past ( in the old days) personally PM me as to why a Thread/Post of mine was deleted.

              Well, last week it happened THREE times !! They explained the reason for the deletion. And it made perfect sense.

              One was for a Thread I started that was an announcement of the third EBola case in NY city.

              The Mod PMed me that there was already a Thread containing all the thoughts and commentary on Ebola and as a result deleted mine. Which made perfect sense

              Another deletion was one where I quoted a Spammer and then made a derogatory comment to the Spammer.
              Again, the Mod PMed me and explained that all Quotes containing Spam are Deleted.

              The third deletion was PMed by a Mod who said because the Post right before mine was deleted and it was inflammatory and I had it in Quotes that it was deleted too . Which I was fine with.

              Anyway,like I say for what it is worth Paul and no one else from the Old Guard EVER ( to me at least) went out of their way to PM me when a Thread or Post of mine was deleted.

              NEVER !!

              And I had plenty of Posts deleted in last 6.5 years

              I know these old Mods were limited in that they were NOT paid. And it was strictly volunteer work. I get that. I also realize PMing every single deleted Post/Thread would probably be just downright unreasonable and a waste of the time they were only volunteering for.

              So I am not saying this makes the Old Guard not quality Mods, and Iam not saying they were necessarily worse than these new ones. EDIT : Actually, I also meant to add that they did an excellent , excellent job for what they had to work with. Very professional, imo !!


              But it is what it is.

              And needless to say I am impressed by these New Mods
              I think they deserve a shot at proving themselves, just like the next guy.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Robert,

                The limit was mostly time.

                For most of the time you've been a member there were only 2 or 3 people (outside the sections with dedicated mods) actively doing all the non-tech things that needed done here. There are now over a dozen people doing those same things. And they don't have their own businesses to run on top of moderating, as far as I know.


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            • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
              I can see your point about the sarcastic part. However, let's look at the other side.

              WF had a number of experienced (both in being a mod and in running a business/knowing the business), volunteer moderators that they decided to let go. Of course there are a lot of reasons for this I'm sure and in the end it's their decision.

              The only reason that I can see that makes sense though is that they felt that the old mods were out of control, too lenient, too strict, too much of a good old boys club, bad attitude towards FL, or other type things. If it was an attitude type issue then the best bet may be to cut the strings completely.

              Or maybe they just wanted something new - for no reason at all except they just wanted something new like the new post icons.

              They could have handled security and other things virtually - lots of other companies do it. They could have given job offers to the experienced mods to work at a distance.
              They could have given the old mods the same training about the new FL way just like they did the new mods. Etc. Etc. Etc.

              But they chose to get rid of free help and use only paid help. That gives the impression to some of us - not in a smart alecky type way but a real life way - that:

              1. They have plenty of money and want to spend their money to get the forum moderated according to their company standards.
              2. They don't need or want free help. This idea is strengthened by no one answering the question.

              For example, do they want Paul or Rod to report posts? They were handling posts that were spam and then told "thanks but no thanks." They are members and still frequent the forum.

              3. The report icons are still there but that doesn't mean they encourage its use. They just may have not figured out how to change it to take it off yet.

              It's kind of like a small office where the management decides to hire a cleaning crew to come in twice a week to clean. Previously the employees were cleaning it themselves.

              Of course, each employee should continue to throw away their own coffee cup, or if they make a mess clean it up. That's common decency.

              However, they don't have a responsibility now towards other's messes or the restrooms or the kitchen. The company has hired a crew to handle that.

              In the case of the forum - the posts we report are the other people's messes.

              So I can see where a legitimate question about the rules going forward can be here for those that have no bad feeling towards FL in the least and no bad feelings toward the old mods or the changeover but are just interested in preserving and building this great resource.

              Mark

              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              A) I haven't read all the places you referred to but I am a little (not much) surprised to read that the question of whether member mods would still be needed was serious. The place I read it - I THINK earlier in this thread - it sounded sarcastic to me. Kind of "you took our mods so you still want us" kind of thing. I say that not to say it was definitely that but it might have been taken like that - protest question - my smart alecky kids might say "am I allowed to take out the garbage Dad....since I am um....grounded. (if you have smart alecky teenagers probably had one of those type questions ).

              The report button is still there and by numerous accounts the mods are monitoring reports and acting on them. The answer is kinda obvious.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

                The only reason that I can see that makes sense though is that they felt that the old mods were out of control, too lenient, too strict, too much of a good old boys club, bad attitude towards FL, or other type things. Or maybe they just wanted something new - for no reason at all except they just wanted something new like the new post icons.
                Nope it isn't the only thing that makes sense. and I am curious why this is still persisting since I am almost sure i have read Paul state the real reason on this forum as I have read it elsewhere

                Its Freelancers internal pre existing policy that their mods be employees. You really can't expect a corporation to buy somewhere and not follow their own policy. Clearly they also want local employees not just virtual. A lot of you are taking this very personal rather than looking it is as business. This is how they do business. They want to manage day to day operations with employees and they want those employees to be local on the spot. They are not at all unusual either among corporations. You would probably frighten the life out of most corporate boards if the CEO was asked

                "So who is running the day to day operations?"
                "well we have volunteers"
                "and how were they picked and what is their qualifications?"
                "oh well they were picked by the previous owner and are old time members who modded there"
                "and you have confidence in nonpaid volunteers you never picked running the place?"
                "Yes"
                "then why should we have confidence in you?"

                Worse if members of the board visited and saw old time members trashing the life out of the CEO and Freelancer constantly griping and mentioning the previous owner as doing everything better (supposedly).

                Heads would probably roll at the first sign of problems. This buy it and leave us alone mentality is just not real world. You can't blame Freelancer for that.

                1. They have plenty of money and want to spend their money to get the forum moderated according to their company standards.
                Like any company in the world. Is your argument really that they should shell out millions with no desire to make sure their company's standards and vision are met? Really?


                For example, do they want Paul or Rod to report posts? They were handling posts that were spam and then told "thanks but no thanks." They are members and still frequent the forum.
                I don't know the details of that but as you put it on the face of it I would say - perfectly understandable. Lets leave out the present atmosphere. What president keeps the former chief of staff around? You can't have two heads. Part of establishing new leadership is the old leadership has to step aside. I know nothing of Rod but Paul was the head honcho and his presence internally does nothing good for new leadership.

                Now if you are saying they just hit the button like anyone else and got the rebuff then I guess theres bad blood there. I could say why that might be but there would probably be a flame war again but I dunno about that part and I tend to think you would only be hearing one side yourself.

                3. The report icons are still there but that doesn't mean they encourage its use. They just may have not figured out how to change it to take it off yet.
                You were reasonable there for awhile but now its just back to I am offended and they are all evil foot stomping. Seriously, they not only have not removed the icons (and they have a programming staff that could do that in their sleep - thats easy even for me to do barely knowing VB) they are monitoring the reports and acting fast on them on many ocassions. That all proves you are just making things up there saying they might just have figured out how to remove it

                the question of whether they still want and use member moderation by hitting the report button has beeen answered by action pretty conclusively. This "give us an answer" feels like its just a point abd protest being made. the two are not even connected. Changing old mods implies nowhere they don't want members to report issues. Proof is in the pudding

                This whole you pay for it and we run it the way we want is so fantasy land though my man. Corporate business isn't the NBA and even Marc Cuban gets involved so it doesn't work that way there either. You might not like it but to make it personal is off. They are following their policy as I understand it
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              The disconnect is in your mind Kay. I referred to one thing being modded as it was before not generally. Seeing how there is a back and forth in this very thread between Suzanne and I regarding me saying new rules should be less draconian in regard to what promotions is - all I can gather is that you have quite the active imagination.
              There is no back and forth between you and I. You and I were both told via pm to stop, so if you don't mind, keep my name out of it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                There is no back and forth between you and I. You and I were both told via pm to stop, so if you don't mind, keep my name out of it.
                I was referencing actual posts that were not deemed necessary to remove talking about rule changes NOT getting into what was removed or what we were admonished about subsequently. You however are now flame baiting which violates what you were told by PM
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  • Profile picture of the author barbling
    The world evolves and like Paul commented:

    Freelancer owns the place. They get to make the rules.
    I hope it works out to the best of results.

    And I also thank all the unpaid moderators who helped out behind the scenes.

    I never before realized how many were involved.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    I just want to make one thing abundantly clear: as one of the many moderators from the old guard who worked with the new Moderators from Australia, I can emphatically say that there was no hostility or ill feelings toward the new moderators, new admininstrator, or the new owners.

    On the contrary, we all worked well together, and we got along. We even encouraged them to ask us questions (and they did). Were there sometimes disagreements on policy? Of course. Were there times when we gave our honest feedback and opined on the some of the changes that were being made? Of course. But we only did it because we wanted to be helpful. Disagreement does not equate bad feelings or hostile feelings, especially in this case.

    While I have my own personal thoughts and feelings on what went down, there's no point in voicing them here. This place has new owners, they have their own corporate culture and way of doing things, they have different security protocols and policies, and only time will tell on how this place will do.

    I wish the new owners well and the new moderators good luck with their endeavors.

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author ppcmanager
    Good move. A couple of sub-forums (like the "Joint Ventures" section) didn't had consistency in terms of thread approvals. Although the Mods had the best of intention, yet it seemed like a personal call of the mods rather than a standard policy.

    I hope such inconsistencies are removed moving forward.
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  • Profile picture of the author Net66
    I just want to publically thank all those who have moderated the forum up until now and done a grand job. You've certainly given the freelancer staff a standard to try to live up to!

    Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author mrmarketer1
    Significant thanks for all the Old Mods for everything they did in their effort to keep the wheels from coming off. I would not be surprised if they are not get called upon again at some time in the future.

    Andrew
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  • Profile picture of the author Paleochora
    I want to just add my thanks to the outgoing (or outgone) volunteer mods.

    You were not always perfect and I didn't always agree with mod decisions or actions but you did a tough job and you did it well and - importantly - you did it for the community rather than for a wage. So that deserves a huge "bravo".

    Let's hope the new team will be as dedicated and insightful as you guys (mostly) were.
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  • Profile picture of the author snginc
    I want to thank all of the outgoing moderators. I have learned a lot from Paul (after getting a dont do that pm). He was my go to guy when I had questions about questionable things going on the forum.

    It will be interesting to see how things go with the turnover.

    Jerome
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  • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
    I hear ya Mike.

    I'll tell you about the moment I officially stop caring...

    Myself and another person noticed a blatant sales page that was posted in reply to a thread in the SEO section. It was extremely clear what the intent was, not just in links, but verbage. The message was "I made this theme, it is the best theme for this purpose, here is what my theme does and why you should buy it" It was clearly a "Buy my theme" sales letter most of which had nothing to do with the discussion in the thread. I reported it, the mods knocked it out (good job) - but then they PM'ed the guy telling him it was due to the links.

    So what happens? The advertorial post immediately went back up since the user had a copy of the original still saved, just without the links.

    In other words, the message is a long form sales letter is fine as long as you don't include a link in the body of the post - other than the CTA signature link which went right to the theme's landing page anyways.

    So if that's the message in moderation, from the moderators - why bother pointing things out at all? I'm wasting my time, their time, the spammers time... screw it.

    Why participate in the process, why report posts? I'm not going to train their moderators on what spam looks like when they had perfectly capable, knowledgeable mods in place to begin with.

    Moderating isn't rocket science in 99% of cases. It's just not. There isn't some great skill set required, for most forums. Certain forums however do require a degree of insight that you simply won't have if you don't live and breath the topic being discussed and I feel that the SEO forum is a perfect example of that.

    In short, while I felt the moderation change was serious mistake at first I still continued to participate in the process in good faith. Then, my suspicion was proven the very first time I interacted with the new mods.

    In other words, this followed a very logical progression of events...

    Change > Suspicion > Confirmation

    Even if someone said that I just had it out for the new management at all costs, I had nothing to do with the confirmation. I put the ball in their court to see what would happen.

    They dropped it and in effect, wasted my time.

    That's not my fault, that wasn't something I could influence in any way. That was purely their choice. The message delivered in that choice was that good faith participation wasn't valued.

    So, this was a really long way of explaining that I'm not just turned away by the new management. I had been very unsure from the start, but still participated in the process. I thought replacing the mods would carry negative effects, but I still participated in the process....

    It's the tangible result of their decisions that has turned me away from participating in the process any further.

    While new management's decisions may take awhile to accumulate, poor moderation decisions will pile up quickly making the impact far greater.

    If I had to venture a guess, I would bet that 'Big Al' has made the calculation that the moderation isn't difficult and the new mods will be able to quickly learn on the job. If I'm correct (and I may not be, I'm not trying to put words in his mouth) - I would forward that it is a flawed assumption and the result of that assumption would be disastrous.

    Most of us (not all, I don't want to lump you into any certain group without your participation or vocalization Mike) can already see the cracks forming...
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Why participate in the process, why report posts? I'm not going to train their moderators on what spam looks like when they had perfectly capable, knowledgeable mods in place to begin with.
    You can do as you see fit, of course, but if you and enough others change your reporting habits, it seems obvious to me that will result in an increase in objectionable threads remaining longer, and more that will be missed entirely. The old mods - read, the forum - depended on member moderators before the forum was sold. It's no less important now.

    Even though there are more mods now, they aren't as experienced. Reading the reported posts is part of the learning experience for them. Overall they're doing a good job, but when others stop reporting the things they used to report, it makes their job harder.
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    • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      You can do as you see fit, of course, but if you and enough others change your reporting habits, it seems obvious to me that will result in an increase in objectionable threads remaining longer, and more that will be missed entirely. The old mods - read, the forum - depended on member moderators before the forum was sold. It's no less important now.
      Yes, that is the obvious result. I don't see why it's any less obvious that when posts are reported and the issue is mishandled that people would be less inclined to report posts in the future. To me, both of these things are obvious - hence my immediate identification of the obvious result of this decision and how it was executed.

      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Even though there are more mods now, they aren't as experienced. Reading the reported posts is part of the learning experience for them. Overall they're doing a good job, but when others stop reporting the things they used to report, it makes their job harder.
      I feel your position places an unfair expectation and burden on the experienced members to thanklessly train the new mods over a longer, extended period of time while hoping that they make the right calls in the process. I'm sorry but I'm not going to help train ill-suited* replacements, especially when that 'training' yields poor results and additional frustration in the process. Maybe I'd feel a bit differently about the situation if the above-referenced spammer didn't gloat about simply needing to remove links to repost his sales copy. However, as the person reporting it - to see the ball not just dropped but then kicked in my face was too much. Why would I ever report a post again? The immediate lesson was that there is no benefit to doing it simply because the mods don't understand what they are looking at.

      And how many mods are there anyways? 5, 10, 24? If I report 10 posts, that means on average .5-1 mod will be exposed to the problem being reported per 10 reported posts I make? Since this is something that is going to take them quite awhile to learn in the SEO section, your theory suggests that I'm just supposed to hang around reporting posts for them in the hopes that maybe 1 finally notices a pattern... at some point?? Which of course, that pattern recognition will be slowed considerably when you take into account the diluted sample by the number of falsely reported posts from people who just didn't like what someone had to say and there was no real issue present.

      Really, if that's the case then just make me a mod and cut out the middle man. I don't want to be a mod for the record, but how many months should I spend trying to impart my knowledge without ever knowing if it will actually make a meaningful impact on just one of them at any point in the near future?

      You see, there is a huge hole in the theory that the membership is responsible for training the moderators. It's not even worth entertaining.

      *Ill-suited in the sense that they lack the required knowledge of the subject matters at hand to do the job effectively. This is not debatable at this point, it has been demonstrated.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Godoveryou,

        The percentage of mods who see any individual report is often much higher than you think. It's not uncommon for mods to leave a note with a report, explaining what they did and why. Other mods will often discuss the decision, or ask for more info.

        Plus, the new mods all work in the same office. I have no doubt they communicate directly on these things, too


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Godoveryou,

          The percentage of mods who see any individual report is often much higher than you think. It's not uncommon for mods to leave a note with a report, explaining what they did and why. Other mods will often discuss the decision, or ask for more info.

          Plus, the new mods all work in the same office. I have no doubt they communicate directly on these things, too


          Paul
          Fair.

          Then one element of my standpoint may be inaccurate - I'm perfectly agreeable that there may be an error there. None the less, I would hold the view that the majority of the reasoning remains intact.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Godoveryou,

            I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the rest of that post at this point. It's largely a personal choice, and a lot of it will depend on implementation. Just thought that might be a useful thing to know. It's not something most people would ever think would happen if they hadn't seen the system from behind the mod curtain.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Godoveryou,

              I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the rest of that post at this point. It's largely a personal choice, and a lot of it will depend on implementation. Just thought that might be a useful thing to know. It's not something most people would ever think would happen if they hadn't seen the system from behind the mod curtain.


              Paul
              Your position is understood. I wasn't trying to pin you into a stance on it
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Godoveryou,
                Your position is understood. I wasn't trying to pin you into a stance on it
                [chuckle] I'm perfectly happy to state one, but it would have so many "if this, then that" qualifications that it would sound more like waffling than posting an opinion.

                Too many variables, and too little clarity on the goals and philosophy for me to do more than speculate at this point.

                It's evolving. A lot of the things people objected to most, including myself, are the result of a much simpler cause than was often considered. Alaister is in the unenviable position of trying to balance the expectations of a corporate hierarchy with the very real-time demands of an active forum.

                Not a simple juggling act, at all.


                Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      You can do as you see fit, of course, but if you and enough others change your reporting habits, it seems obvious to me that will result in an increase in objectionable threads remaining longer, and more that will be missed entirely. The old mods - read, the forum - depended on member moderators before the forum was sold. It's no less important now.

      Even though there are more mods now, they aren't as experienced. Reading the reported posts is part of the learning experience for them. Overall they're doing a good job, but when others stop reporting the things they used to report, it makes their job harder.
      The thing is Dennis is that the question has been asked over and over again if the new owners want member moderators to continue reporting. All we've gotten for an answer is the sound of crickets chirping. It's a yes no question. Not too difficult to answer I wouldn't think. With the old mods, I've received pms from at least 4 of them thanking me for helping out, so I always felt it was both needed and appreciated.
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