Are You 100% sure of your ability to create great copy?

Sebastion

13 years ago

I'm 100% sure I'm an awesome writer.

The only other thing I'm 100% sure of is that we'll all be wormfood one day.

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AdwordsMogul

13 years ago

Originally Posted by anton343;3843194...

Now I am 100& sure in this software product and believe it could become a best seller with the right launch tactics and sales copy etc.

....

Anton

With all due respect, Anton, those words are the biggest mistake people make when they create a new product.

I'm not saying that it's not possible.

However, it's a very dangerous assumption.

Have you done any tests to see if people are willing to pay for what you're offering?

Originally Posted by anton343

....

The reason this came up as I was looking for a JV manager and quite a lot of these work on percentages rather than upfront fees. Why are copywriters different?

Anton

Copywriters are different because the best copy in the world can't sell a thing if you don't do your part.

Your JV partners could mess up. You could get tired and give up on the idea. Plus a million other factors.

Without a copywriter you don't have a business. Unless of course, you learn how to write copy yourself.

In any case, we accept percentages too - in addition to the base fee.

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Stephen Dean

13 years ago

To get your answer, ask the question in reverse: How certain are you that you can get enough quality traffic to the sales copy to make sales? How certain can the copywriter be that you'll get traffic to the page?

It's simply too big of a risk for a copywriter to make. Hiring a copywriter comes with some risk too - it's a good idea to do your research when hiring one.

But entrepreneurs take risks, copywriters work for a living

Cheers,
Stephen

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John_S

13 years ago

if they are 100% sure in their ability why not take on jobs as a percentage of sales.

Because 100% of those writers are at least 100% booked with non percentage deals. If they can sell, they can also sell full price, up front cash deals.

If they want to sell software, a code monkey is a dime a dozen. I've hired four at a time and thought nothing of it. (And probably paid more than I should have -- thousands-of-dollars). One little trick to being sure: YOU HAVE THE MONEY. That little trick means you don't have to fund anyone else's software ideas, you build it or have it built yourself.

Copywriters don't have to come up with big ideas. They let market observation drive decisions. This keeps the inventor mentality from running amok.

When somebody says they are 100% sure of their invention (including software) you can be certain of several things. They have not researched a market (everybody needs it). They have not developed a competitive advantage (the market is wide open). They do not test the software with users (Out of fear the big idea may escape). That is a a sure "three strikes against."

Upon a moment's reflection, I think you'll agree the ONLY way they'd be 100% sure is if they were already booked with full pay deals. If they are inclined to take a percentage deal, they'll do so by beating a control piece for something proven and on the market for a while (with a house list of thousands to tens-of-thousands of paying customers).

You only get close to 100% sure of yourself when you've beaten a long-standing control piece in the market. Because there is always an alternative which lurks in the back of one's mind: 100% self delusion.

And that little miscalculation of yours makes most one-hundred-percent doubtful of unproven assumptions.

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Summertime Dress

13 years ago

Anton,

Thank you for your post because I'm in the process of learning how to better pre-qualify my clients so I don't take on projects where I'm merely another commodity...as John_S puts it -- a "code monkey". Your mindset is that of something for nothing...which I've learned is code for "cheap". You'll also be the same client who (down the road once I try to get my chips) will find a reason to change the rules or steal my percentage.

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anton343

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Summertime Dress

Anton,

Thank you for your post because I'm in the process of learning how to better pre-qualify my clients so I don't take on projects where I'm merely another commodity...as John_S puts it -- a "code monkey". Your mindset is that of something for nothing...which I've learned is code for "cheap". You'll also be the same client who (down the road once I try to get my chips) will find a reason to change the rules or steal my percentage.

Hey mate,

Replying with an insult isn't really good copy. I guess you don't get much work

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John_S

13 years ago

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Yeah. That's not what I said.

To make the concept easier for you: A bird in your hand is worth more than a complete stranger's wholly untested opinion two are waiting in a bush they're 100% sure but equally unwilling to develop the slightest shred of proof they've seen.

This is something you can be especially sure of when YOU KNOW BIRDS AND THE OTHER GUY IS TRYING TO HIRE YOU AS A BIRD FINDING EXPERT, BUT KNOWS JACK ABOUT FINDING BIRDS.

When I find the software entrepreneur who spent their money on thourough market research and properly executed user testing, I'm willing to rewrite my saying.

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John_S

13 years ago

Copywriters who fit the bill are unavailable, but not just because they're booked.

Nice excerpting. Wrong conclusion. If the text is too long for you to get through, then maybe you shouldn't bother reading it.

If I wanted that excerpt to be taken as the alpha and omega of my point, then I can assure you that is all I would have written.

And I don't think unmistakable means what you think it means. I do think you know what Reductio Ad Absurdum means.

If, say, a copywriter of this type is booked 82.5% it's pretty much because that's all they want to be booked. They're not unavailable just because of booking every waking minute. If they want to fill the time, they'd sooner fill it with a project of their own.

Available to some person off the street who can type the word sure ...not so much. The original post is a ill-concieved, fundamentally flawed, dare. All it needs is a "double dog" to top it off.

Argue it for fifty posts why dontcha.

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FuturePrinceofPrint

13 years ago

This whole thing doesn't even make sense with what you wrote.. I'm totally confused

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AuthorityRush

13 years ago

I wouldn't mind working for a percentage if I liked the product and thought it could do well as well. My concern is how do you know what the the real sales are? I am sure there would be people who would lie about the revenue to pay less commission, no? Find a way for people to trust you and you might get better deals like the one you are speaking of. I like risk. Risk = reward, sometimes

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anton343

13 years ago

Originally Posted by StreetBacon

I wouldn't mind working for a percentage if I liked the product and thought it could do well as well. My concern is how do you know what the the real sales are? I am sure there would be people who would lie about the revenue to pay less commission, no? Find a way for people to trust you and you might get better deals like the one you are speaking of. I like risk. Risk = reward, sometimes

I have worked like this before and once initial trust is established and agreement reached it is simple to set up a seperate paypal account for sales for that product only. Sales coming in can be shown on video to whomever you are working with on a weekly basis.

Anton

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Shadowflux

13 years ago

I'm 100% sure of my abilities as a writer and have made that explicitly clear when fishing for new clients. I've managed to steal clients from other writers who were charging them less money than I am. How's that for sales copy? :p

Personally, I wouldn't be interested in a percentage deal because I'm not interested in being involved with someone's business. I want to get paid, write and be done. I also don't trust that everyone I write for is going to be successful simply because I've written great material. I've also had trouble, in the past, with clients deciding later on that they don't feel they owe me as much as they promised (which is when I pull out the contract!).

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Dean Jackson 13 years ago

I don't think too many online copywriters are taking %'s off the backend.

As I recall Ray L Edwards stating, getting a slice off the backend would be more suited to a direct response company, and that's only after beating a control.
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Michael Ten

13 years ago

I am sure that about 40-80 percent of the time, I can create GREAT copy. Yes.

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MikeHumphreys

13 years ago

Originally Posted by anton343

However when looking for copywriters I find that most are out of my price range I was wonderering, if they are 100% sure in their ability why not take on jobs as a percentage of sales. Providing they believe the product fits thier own criteria to be successful.

The reason this came up as I was looking for a JV manager and quite a lot of these work on percentages rather than upfront fees. Why are copywriters different?

Anton

Anton, quite simply it's a sellers market. There are more businesses that need high-quality copy than there are high-quality copywriters for hire.

So the in-demand copywriters can be a lot more picky about what projects they want to take on.

As for royalty deals... it's basically a form of business partnership. And like any other business partnership, I wouldn't accept one from someone that I didn't already know or didn't come with strong references.

It would be like getting married before you've even gone on a date. You don't know how passionate they are about their business. You don't know how skilled they are at driving targeted traffic... recruiting affiliates... even their marketing skills.

You also don't know their ethics. Are they the type of person/business who honors their deals... or looks to take advantage of their partner at the first opportunity?

I'm not saying that you are an unethical person. Not at all.

I'm saying that the unethical ripoff happens so often that most experienced copywriters are very wary of partnership/royalty deals except with well-established businesses (like any of the major mailers) or clients they have worked with before.

Here's what I suggest: Identify several top-notch copywriters that you'd be willing to partner with. Contact them privately.

Be prepared to do a deal where you're paying some money up-front and an ongoing royalty. The money up-front covers some of their initial expenses and shows you're serious about using the copy that they are going to write. To use a poker analogy, you'll have some skin in the game.

And be prepared to sign a contract that spells out what each party is responsible for delivering.

Good luck to you with your project.

Take care,

Mike

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anton343

13 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Anton, quite simply it's a sellers market. There are more businesses that need high-quality copy than there are high-quality copywriters for hire.

So the in-demand copywriters can be a lot more picky about what projects they want to take on.

As for royalty deals... it's basically a form of business partnership. And like any other business partnership, I wouldn't accept one from someone that I didn't already know or didn't come with strong references.

It would be like getting married before you've even gone on a date. You don't know how passionate they are about their business. You don't know how skilled they are at driving targeted traffic... recruiting affiliates... even their marketing skills.

You also don't know their ethics. Are they the type of person/business who honors their deals... or looks to take advantage of their partner at the first opportunity?

I'm not saying that you are an unethical person. Not at all.

I'm saying that the unethical ripoff happens so often that most experienced copywriters are very wary of partnership/royalty deals except with well-established businesses (like any of the major mailers) or clients they have worked with before.

Here's what I suggest: Identify several top-notch copywriters that you'd be willing to partner with. Contact them privately.

Be prepared to do a deal where you're paying some money up-front and an ongoing royalty. The money up-front covers some of their initial expenses and shows you're serious about using the copy that they are going to write. To use a poker analogy, you'll have some skin in the game.

And be prepared to sign a contract that spells out what each party is responsible for delivering.

Good luck to you with your project.

Take care,

Mike

Thanks Mike

That's whats great about this place someone always comes up with some sound advice

Anton

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tony sanders

13 years ago

I know copywriters can range up to tens of thousands of dollars. What I'm curious to know is, do copywriters have a "niche/s" in which their copy will convert traffic or will the great copywriters be able to do copy in basically any niche?

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GlobalMedia

13 years ago

Originally Posted by tony sanders

I know copywriters can range up to tens of thousands of dollars. What I'm curious to know is, do copywriters have a "niche/s" in which their copy will convert traffic or will the great copywriters be able to do copy in basically any niche?

Nice to see someone is curious to learn about the copywriters. In my personal opinion, a good copywriter does not focus much on niches. He is capable to write on almost all niches. Even if you are weak at something, with experience you will learn how to manage your weakness.

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Nick Brighton

13 years ago

Originally Posted by anton343

if they are 100% sure in their ability why not take on jobs as a percentage of sales. Providing they believe the product fits thier own criteria to be successful.

Why don't Heart Surgeons settle for commission only, paid every year their patient lives after a successful operation?

Is it because they don't have any guarantees, and moreoever, they have mouths to feed TODAY?

Me thinks so.

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copywritingfreelancer

13 years ago

Interesting thoughts.. The reason copywriters are different is because we only play a limited part in the promotion of the product and funnel..

All the copy writers I know at 100% sure in their ability as am I, but we're not sure in the product owners ability to deliver or bring on the right JV partners to promote the product..

The biggest thing I see in promotions these days and conversion rates is the poor traffic quality that people are sending to sales pages.

For example: One of my clients that I've just written a letter for is complaining that his letter is only converting at 2.4%, but when we look at his conversion without the traffic coming from one particular JV partner it's sitting at about 17%. The reason the overall conversion is low is solely because on partner is sending junk traffic to the site..

So yes we are 100% behind our copy, it's just the outside factors that we aren't behind..

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