31 replies
(moved from here)

Originally Posted by sipero

I personally know of others using these methods earning more than $1000 per month
@sipero:

Your statements are completely incorrect, and misleading to anyone reading here. I challenge you to PM me privately with a list of people you know who are making $thousands monthly--with all due respect I know you cannot.

Reality is that 99.99% of app developers do not make money, and that is not conjecture. It is factual and supported by articles on authority sites, plus one can go to any app developer forum and see thousands of developers crying that they have near zero monthly downloads. Analogy: There are tens or hundreds of thousands of wannabe singers (and loads of damn good ones) but only a handful make it to stardom. The term "starving artists" applies to singers and actors and painters, and also to app developers, all who cannot support themselves in their craft, because there are too many people competing at the bottom of the pyramid, and room for only a select few at the top. (Apple & Andriod app stores have limited "top visibility")

As every app developer knows, ASO (app store optimization) is 10x harder than website SEO.... i.e. Getting on first page of Google results is way way way easier than getting noticed in the app store. (look, if you can't rank websites on Google page 1, then forget about being successful with app marketing!)

There's over a quarter million app developers, and only less than 1/100th of 1% have any visibility whatsoever in Apple or Andriod's app store. Over the years there's been only a handful of "Cinderella Stories" where some guy quit his job because his new app made it to #1 or #4 or #10 on the charts.


Originally Posted by sipero View Post

I personally know of others using these methods earning more than $1000 per month from just 20 apps and others than are earning less than $100 per month from 100 apps. The key is the quality of the app and keyword research. Those I've seen that meet this criteria do perform well.
#apps #stuff
  • Profile picture of the author sipero
    Originally Posted by Its Trish View Post

    (moved from here)



    @sipero:

    Your statements are completely incorrect, and misleading to anyone reading here. I challenge you to PM me privately with a list of people you know who are making monthly--with all due respect I know you cannot.

    Reality is that 99.99% of app developers do not make money, and that is not conjecture. It is factual and supported by articles on authority sites, plus one can go to any app developer forum and see thousands of developers crying that they have near zero monthly downloads. Analogy: There are tens or hundreds of thousands of wannabe singers (and loads of damn good ones) but only a handful make it to stardom. The term "starving artists" applies to singers and actors and painters, and also to app developers, all who cannot support themselves in their craft, because there are too many people competing at the bottom of the pyramid, and room for only a select few at the top. (Apple & Andriod app stores have limited "top visibility")

    As every app developer knows, ASO (app store optimization) is 10x harder than website SEO.... i.e. Getting on first page of Google results is way way way easier than getting noticed in the app store. (look, if you can't rank websites on Google page 1, then forget about being successful with app marketing!)

    There's over a quarter million app developers, and only less than 1/100th of 1% have any visibility whatsoever in Apple or Andriod's app store. Over the years there's been only a handful of "Cinderella Stories" where some guy quit his job because his new app made it to #1 or #4 or #10 on the charts.
    See if you can get access to this mastermind group for just a few examples of what I stated and these are ones that publicly state it. I personally know others that privately state their revenue earnings. I can also give you a few examples of small business apps that I've produced that are on the 1st page in the Google Play store, and in the first 1 - 3 pages of Google and this has been achieved within 1 - 3 days of my app being published. Please post a public apology.
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    • Profile picture of the author sipero
      This does not show revenue but check the strategy and number of downloads and you can see a good revenue stream potential
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    • Profile picture of the author Its Trish
      @TheGreyling:

      I don't know whether you're friends with the wso author or you have some other reason to defend him. But get serious man. The apps industry is freaking tough to make money in. I go to monthly meetings with over 200 developers, and there are barely any devs in the room who make any respectful money from their apps. Most of them have apps in the app store with nearly zero downloads per month. When there's a dev at a meeting who is making $50 or $100 or $200 a month consistently, they are like a God or a celebrity to the other few hundred developers there, and everyone wants to chat with them.

      @sipero:

      With all due respect I have no respect for anyone who continues to sell WSO's by leading people to believe that it is easy to "cash in on the gold rush". Especially with all of the broke warriors who are reaching for straws for anything that can make them some, any, bit of cash.

      Surely there are people, somewhere, who make money from apps (duh!) and you have found some in a facebook group, great. But no, I"m not going to join a Facebook mastermind group and then contact those people to see their stats. Anyone making income claims in a WSO (and telling people they can cash in on a gold rush is certainly one) needs to provide some sort of proof in their wso, especially when asked in the threaed. If you read thru wso's you'll see it is typical for warriors to ask for proof, and then the wso author provides it.

      Originally Posted by sipero View Post

      See if you can get access to this mastermind group for just a few examples of what I stated and these are ones that publicly state it. I personally know others that privately state their revenue earnings. I can also give you a few examples of small business apps that I've produced that are on the 1st page in the Google Play store, and in the first 1 - 3 pages of Google and this has been achieved within 1 - 3 days of my app being published. Please post a public apology.
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      • Profile picture of the author Its Trish
        Claims that it is easy to "cash in on the apps gold rush"....

        The FTC has cracked down on websites and infomercials making income claims, and now when someone shows John Smith making $15,000 a month with xyz stock trading software, that is no longer acceptable. Even when including a "results are not typical" statement. When the laws changed a few years, countless large (and small) IM marketers completely changed their websites. (there are WF threads on this) The law says that one must show "average earnings"... what all their customers are making on average. But it's virtually impossible to survey every customer, and get a reply, and then post an average earnings figure--so most marketers don't bother. (at the beginning of some of Frank Kern's videos, he goes way over the top, making statements protecting himself from the laws, in a somewhat sarcastic and fun fashion) Bottom line is that income claims are frowned upon by the FTC because for the most part they're deceitful to the layperson watching tv at 2 am or surfing an unknown website.

        Unfortunately, the wso section of this forum (and others) is not monitored by the FTC and there are countless garbage wso's promising the sky, when the wso author has barely been succesful themself. Many have faked income results (yes, it happens all the time) but what is most common is someone who made money from something else (for example a launch they did, where they made some good money during 2 weeks in April, one time in their life) and then they make a screencam video showing them logging into Paypal and showing juicy income for a week or a month. (but they cannot show the entire year--they can only show their lucky high-income week or month) Using that to convince prospects that their xyz course can make anyone loads of money, especially when they themselves haven't been able to do that (using their own course), is just plain criminal. Don't get me started on all the crap that goes on in this or any forum where people post offers. (and don't reply saying there are loads of legit sellers, because there indeed are, and that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying there are loads of deceiptful sellers)
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        • Profile picture of the author Its Trish
          Respectfully guys, I don't accept either of your arguments. Yes, you can show me some app store pages with apps that have downloads. And yes, it is possible to rank in the app store with long tail keywords, or in smaller categories. But that doesn't result in making a decent monthly income.
          1) Hardly anyone makes a non-embarrasing monthly income

          When I say that it is common knowledge that ASO (app store optimization) is 10x harder than website SEO, I'm referring to being "successful" at it. Essentially, getting good SERPs in an area with with visibility, which leads to enough downloads that result in some sort of non-embarrassing monthly sales figure.

          2) Most apps are not successful unless they're on top

          In the monthly developer meetings, lots of those 200+ guys have decent positions in app store categories other than the main category--but at the end of the day their app doesn't get downloads or make fungolas.

          App Annie and other public stats sites show clear statistics that being in most any category or subcategory is minuscule compared to being on the "Top 25" or "New and Noteworthy" or "Most Popular" or "Editors Picks" lists. The hundreds of millions of smartphone users search the top of the app store, and nowhere else. They hardly every surf thru categories. There is too much eye candy right at the front of the app store. Seriously, when you search on Google, how often do you look beyond the first page of Google results? Or even past the first 6 listings? You don't. Most people don't. 99.99% of people do not. Likewise, the majority of mobile users don't look past the top of the app stores.

          3) Average guy doesn't have a fair chance with ASO

          One reason why the average joe doesn't have a chance with ASO, is because companies with money can buy their way to the top, and push everyone else out of the top 25. For example you can use paid download services and in-app incentive services to achieve large downloads. (Apple is battling that right now) It takes 5,000-6,000 downloads per day for 5 concecutive days to get in the top of a category, and 25,000 downloads per day for 5 consecutive days to get in the main top 25. Large companies with a budget can pay the big bucks for 1 week and buy their way up there, then hope their app gains ASO velocity required to remain there.

          4) TheGreyling, Your limited knowledge of ASO

          You don't know who I am or what I do with respect to apps and app marketing, so you're not qualified to suggest you know more than me about ASO or the app selling, and respectfully speaking I guarantee you don't. For example you had no idea that in the app store, the number of times a user's finger swipes thru app screenshots actually contributes to an app's "velocity" score within the ASO formula. (in Apple's app store, on any app listing you can swipe left-right to see more screenshots uploaded by the developer) We have split tested clients and lo-and-behold we can nudge app store ranking by playing with the screenshot images. Buzzwords like "ROI", and "Accountability" with clients, most likely are not part of your world, so trust me that you are not qualified to argue ASO with me.
          As I said at the beginning, just go to any app developer forum and you'll see that the pyramid is bottom heavy with everyone complaining that they're not making money with their apps. Of the hundreds of thousands of app developers, very few are successful--so it is not ethical or moral to lead warriors to believe that they can easily cash in on the goldrush. It's not easy. It's damn hard.
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          • Profile picture of the author sipero
            Originally Posted by Its Trish View Post

            Respectfully guys, I don't accept either of your arguments. Yes, you can show me some app store pages with apps that have downloads. And yes, it is possible to rank in the app store with long tail keywords, our in smaller categories. But that doesn't result in making a decent monthly income.

            When I say that it is common knowledge that ASO (app store optimization) is 10x harder than website SEO, I'm referring to being successful at both. Essentially, getting good SERPs in an area with with visibility, that leads to enough downloads that result in some sort of non-embarrassing monthly sales figure. In the monthly developer meetings, lots of those guys have decent positions in categories other than the main category, but at the end of the day their app doesn't get downloads or make fungolas.
            I'll carry on generating revenue and leave you to go whatever way you want.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan Hower
            Hi Trish,

            may I ask your opinion on a related topic. I am gonna write an app in 2013 that targets the millions of business travellers, and the app will deliver them some real value that they need desperately. The development of that app will cost a substantial amount.

            Our business plan - we are 4 people - says we will not do any app search optimization but promote it by other ways like ads (online and in business magazines), maybe forums and others ways so people will learn about the app and can then go to the app stores and just download it.

            Would you say that could work, or would there be any other obstacles that I don't know of?

            I should also mention that the app will be offered for 3 dollars, and we hope to sell a substantial number per day. And I have explained what the app does in posting # 8 in this thread

            Thanks
            Dan Hower

            Originally Posted by Its Trish View Post

            Respectfully guys, I don't accept either of your arguments. Yes, you can show me some app store pages with apps that have downloads. And yes, it is possible to rank in the app store with long tail keywords, or in smaller categories. But that doesn't result in making a decent monthly income.
            1) Hardly anyone makes a non-embarrasing monthly income

            When I say that it is common knowledge that ASO (app store optimization) is 10x harder than website SEO, I'm referring to being "successful" at it. Essentially, getting good SERPs in an area with with visibility, which leads to enough downloads that result in some sort of non-embarrassing monthly sales figure.

            2) Most apps are not successful unless they're on top

            In the monthly developer meetings, lots of those 200+ guys have decent positions in app store categories other than the main category--but at the end of the day their app doesn't get downloads or make fungolas.

            App Annie and other public stats sites show clear statistics that being in most any category or subcategory is minuscule compared to being on the "Top 25" or "New and Noteworthy" or "Most Popular" or "Editors Picks" lists. The hundreds of millions of smartphone users search the top of the app store, and nowhere else. They hardly every surf thru categories. There is too much eye candy right at the front of the app store. Seriously, when you search on Google, how often do you look beyond the first page of Google results? Or even past the first 6 listings? You don't. Most people don't. 99.99% of people do not. Likewise, the majority of mobile users don't look past the top of the app stores.

            3) Average guy doesn't have a fair chance with ASO

            One reason why the average joe doesn't have a chance with ASO, is because companies with money can buy their way to the top, and push everyone else out of the top 25. For example you can use paid download services and in-app incentive services to achieve large downloads. (Apple is battling that right now) It takes 5,000-6,000 downloads per day for 5 concecutive days to get in the top of a category, and 25,000 downloads per day for 5 consecutive days to get in the main top 25. Large companies with a budget can pay the big bucks for 1 week and buy their way up there, then hope their app gains ASO velocity required to remain there.

            4) TheGreyling, Your limited knowledge of ASO

            You don't know who I am or what I do with respect to apps and app marketing, so you're not qualified to suggest you know more than me about ASO or the app selling, and respectfully speaking I guarantee you don't. For example you had no idea that in the app store, the number of times a user's finger swipes thru app screenshots actually contributes to an app's "velocity" score within the ASO formula. (in Apple's app store, on any app listing you can swipe left-right to see more screenshots uploaded by the developer) We have split tested clients and lo-and-behold we can nudge app store ranking by playing with the screenshot images. Buzzwords like "ROI", and "Accountability" with clients, most likely are not part of your world, so trust me that you are not qualified to argue ASO with me.
            As I said at the beginning, just go to any app developer forum and you'll see that the pyramid is bottom heavy with everyone complaining that they're not making money with their apps. Of the hundreds of thousands of app developers, very few are successful--so it is not ethical or moral to lead warriors to believe that they can easily cash in on the goldrush. It's not easy. It's damn hard.
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            • Profile picture of the author Its Trish
              Our business plan - we are 4 people - says we will not do any app search optimization
              Hi Dan, that is unusual, why are you not wanting to do any ASO?
              ASO (app store optimization) is what gets your app more noticed within the app store, resulting in more downloads/purchases from the millions of users who are already surfing the app store for apps.

              Okay, so I looked at your app description in the thread you referenced. First this: Many people have had their app ideas stolen and then developed into an app. You're giving away a good idea on a high-traffic public forum. I'm going to suggest you immediately edit your posting, and remove any reference to JL. You can still get help on this forum and on developer forums, without having to disclose that your app is all about JL.

              On that same subject, once your app is released, there's a good chance you'll see knock-offs, so be prepared for that. Unless you can patent your idea, the best strategy to not get eaten up by knock-off apps is for you to come out of the gate strong and stay #1 within your niche.

              Would you say that could work
              Without seeing your business plan (including the marketing plan section) and without knowing your marketing budget, I can't really comment on your particular strategy or whether you'll see ROI on your ad dollars. Just keep in mind that it's easy to flush money down the toilet, quickly, paying for advertising including print (magazine ads).

              Armed with a budget, one certainly can use all types of pr, advertising and marketing tactics (including magazine ads as you mentioned), plus use free tactics (forums as you mentioned) to push people to their app's listing in the app store. Although I'd say in 9 times out of 10, most app authors wouldn't see ROI on their ad dollars.




              Originally Posted by Dan Hower View Post

              Hi Trish,

              may I ask your opinion on a related topic. I am gonna write an app in 2013 that targets the millions of business travellers, and the app will deliver them some real value that they need desperately. The development of that app will cost a substantial amount.

              Our business plan - we are 4 people - says we will not do any app search optimization but promote it by other ways like ads (online and in business magazines), maybe forums and others ways so people will learn about the app and can then go to the app stores and just download it.

              Would you say that could work, or would there be any other obstacles that I don't know of?

              I should also mention that the app will be offered for 3 dollars, and we hope to sell a substantial number per day. And I have explained what the app does in posting # 8 in this thread

              Thanks
              Dan Hower
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              • Profile picture of the author Its Trish
                Something to consider....

                Your idea might be something you can patent. Then you could make a working prototype... do some case studies to prove that it does indeed cure JL... and then secure some financial backing for your development & marketing. Then you could hire an app marketing firm with a track record.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan Hower
                Hi Trish,

                thanks.

                I was not clear on that: We could of course do ASO, but as you said further up that alone will probably not lead to success.

                I have deleted the description in my posting. We have had that technique offered years ago but not as apps, and indeed somebody copied it and published an app, however, since he doesn't know the background it doesn't work and has not been sold many times, and he disappeared.

                We had a patent application rejected since 20 years ago there was somebody else suggesting that method, however, he disappeared as well.

                Our marketing guy will work on strategies to make the app go viral once it is online. However, that is not my area, nor is financing, however, I do not want anybody to invest substantial money into development (= my bank account) only to find out later it has no chance. That's why I am interested to read about others' experiences.

                Cheers
                Dan Hower


                Originally Posted by Its Trish View Post

                Hi Dan, that is unusual, why are you not wanting to do any ASO?
                ASO (app store optimization) is what gets your app more noticed within the app store, resulting in more downloads/purchases from the millions of users who are already surfing the app store for apps.

                Okay, so I looked at your app description in the thread you referenced. First this: Many people have had their app ideas stolen and then developed into an app. You're giving away a good idea on a high-traffic public forum. I'm going to suggest you immediately edit your posting, and remove any reference to JL. You can still get help on this forum and on developer forums, without having to disclose that your app is all about JL.

                On that same subject, once your app is released, there's a good chance you'll see knock-offs, so be prepared for that. Unless you can patent your idea, the best strategy to not get eaten up by knock-off apps is for you to come out of the gate strong and stay #1 within your niche.



                Without seeing your business plan (including the marketing plan section) and without knowing your marketing budget, I can't really comment on your particular strategy or whether you'll see ROI on your ad dollars. Just keep in mind that it's easy to flush money down the toilet, quickly, paying for advertising including print (magazine ads).

                Armed with a budget, one certainly can use all types of pr, advertising and marketing tactics (including magazine ads as you mentioned), plus use free tactics (forums as you mentioned) to push people to their app's listing in the app store. Although I'd say in 9 times out of 10, most app authors wouldn't see ROI on their ad dollars.
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      • Profile picture of the author TheGreyling
        Originally Posted by Its Trish View Post

        @TheGreyling:

        I don't know whether you're friends with the wso author or you have some other reason to defend him. But get serious man. The apps industry is freaking tough to make money in. I go to monthly meetings with over 200 developers, and there are barely any devs in the room who make any respectful money from their apps. Most of them have apps in the app store with nearly zero downloads per month. When there's a dev at a meeting who is making $50 or $100 or $200 a month consistently, they are like a God or a celebrity to the other few hundred developers there, and everyone wants to chat with them.
        .....

        Anyone making income claims in a WSO (and telling people they can cash in on a gold rush is certainly one) needs to provide some sort of proof in their wso, especially when asked in the threaed. If you read thru wso's you'll see it is typical for warriors to ask for proof, and then the wso author provides it.
        Firstly - no I don't know the OP. Why would you assume that I must in order to put up a coherent argument which happens to be contrary to your own? Oh wait - I think I've answered my own question.

        Secondly - perhaps you should carefully consider who you continue to hang out with. They're clearly not doing your frame of mind any good.

        Thirdly - I don't happen to believe the OP actually made any income claims. I have re-read the OP and can't find any - can you? Making a somewhat hyperbolic statement in order to attract attention to one's thread is not illegal - maybe your App Marketing failure mates could take some notes.

        Fourthly (and finally, because I really can't be bothered) - I am preparing for my God-like/celebrity status to be recognised next time I'm out and about
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        • Profile picture of the author Its Trish
          Originally Posted by TheGreyling View Post

          maybe your App Marketing failure mates could take some notes.
          Then I'd suggest you go to a developers meeting, and tell the 250 developers in attendance that they're "failures". (because they make up the 99.99% of the app developers who are stuck at the bottom of the pyramid)

          You can also phone the editors of authority sites (such as Danny Sullivan's "Search Engine Watch" which is the holy grail of SEO and app marketers and was purchased by one of the world's largest media companies for $40 million) and tell them they don't know what they're talking about. Then phone Flurry, the world's largest content and data aggregator for apps, and tell them that their data is wrong.

          Seriously friend I think you should let this go.
          (a) It's freakin hard to make money with apps, that's a fact.
          And it's common knowledge in the app dev community.
          (b) One can't just "get in on the gold rush" and easily make money as the wso editor claims. The apps gold rush was over 5 yrs ago and lasted a seriously short time. Anyone telling others that there's still an apps gold rush, or a domains gold rush (lol), is giving out misinformation. And if they're saying so in order to pump their product, then that's fraudulent. There's no gold rush!
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  • Profile picture of the author TheGreyling
    Originally Posted by Its Trish View Post

    (moved from here)



    @sipero:

    Your statements are completely incorrect, and misleading to anyone reading here. I challenge you to PM me privately with a list of people you know who are making monthly--with all due respect I know you cannot.

    Reality is that 99.99% of app developers do not make money, and that is not conjecture. It is factual and supported by articles on authority sites, plus one can go to any app developer forum and see thousands of developers crying that they have near zero monthly downloads. Analogy: There are tens or hundreds of thousands of wannabe singers (and loads of damn good ones) but only a handful make it to stardom. The term "starving artists" applies to singers and actors and painters, and also to app developers, all who cannot support themselves in their craft, because there are too many people competing at the bottom of the pyramid, and room for only a select few at the top. (Apple & Andriod app stores have limited "top visibility")

    As every app developer knows, ASO (app store optimization) is 10x harder than website SEO.... i.e. Getting on first page of Google results is way way way easier than getting noticed in the app store. (look, if you can't rank websites on Google page 1, then forget about being successful with app marketing!)

    There's over a quarter million app developers, and only less than 1/100th of 1% have any visibility whatsoever in Apple or Andriod's app store. Over the years there's been only a handful of "Cinderella Stories" where some guy quit his job because his new app made it to #1 or #4 or #10 on the charts.
    Whilst I am somewhat hesitant to get embroiled in a private spat, I feel compelled to respond to what appears to be a completely ignorant opinion - informed by 'authority sites' and 'as every app developer knows' (really?) instead of personal endeavour.

    I am not a full time app developer, I have 'dabbled' - as I have other business commitments - but I always take the time to do my research, learn about a subject to the best of my ability, and then TRY IT myself before passing judgement. I respectfully suggest you do the same. There are many white-label providers of the Seattle Clouds platform on this forum. You could try it yourself before condeming people for making perfectly legitimate comments.

    IMHO the original OP of the offer which sparked this (somewhat pointless) argument was perfectly correct to refuse to give you earnings figures. He has no knowledge of what your niche might be, what keywords you would choose, how good the quality of the content you would provide or even how competitive that chosen niche might be - any and ALL of which will have a bearing on your earning power. It strikes me that even had he given you any figures you would have shot him down in flames for doing so; 'damned if he did and damned if he didn't'. Still, you apparently left that for Sipero who was just offering you the clarity you were asking for.

    For what it's worth, here is the benefit of my very limited experience.

    I have one particular app in a HUGELY competitive niche that I decided to sub-niche. It ranks at number 3 on page 1 for it's search term. I did no more than optimise it correctly. I have another that ranks between no 1 and 2 (depending on the day) for another keyword and actually ranks in Google for the app now. Again, only optimising for the appropriate keyword. App Store Optimisation is way easier than getting to page 1 in Google (although you can achieve both). You may be confusing getting onto the Google Play charts with actual ASO (as you like to call it). Most people just punch in a keyword to search for an app and having several dozen to several hundred available is the key to success for small budget app developers.

    I make no claims for what others are earning - I have no idea. But to refuse to conceive of the possibility that anyone can make a good living at this is patently ridiculous.

    My advice to you is simple. Quit arguing and go and get your hands dirty. There is no substitute for experience - and you never know - you might just make some money in the process.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    The problem with app creation is pretty similar to Internet Marketing where many people flood the market and are looking for a pay day. You get these "App Gold rush" claims left and right, but if you do your homework you will see just what you are up against. Not that I don't encourage people to follow what they want to do, but if you are doing it purely for the money, or not prepared to spend many years without making money, then don't get caught up with all the hype. There is way too much hype out there, another reason why the market is flooded with newbies, and yes, only a very minor number of people ever see a small pay check, much rather a big one.

    If this is your passion, then go for it, but again, don't get caught up in all the get rich hype that is not true, specially with apps.
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    • Profile picture of the author networkempire
      In my view, without complicating; apps store optimisation is still very simple in Google Play

      1. Give Keyword rich name
      2. Write long descriptions with related keywords & LSI keywords
      3. Save images & Icons with your target Keyword
      4. Drive incentivised downloads and comments/ratings/social likes (grey hat)
      5. Backlink from authority apps related forums

      Ping me if you wish to know more. Thanks
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    • Profile picture of the author Its Trish
      Above post is incorrect.
      (hint: the poster is selling something)
      There is much more to ASO than that. It's extremely difficult to get app store positioning and app downloads required to make money.
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      • Profile picture of the author Its Trish
        Dan,

        Definitely take in what Christian has to say. (copy below)

        It is extremely difficult to make money with apps.

        Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.
        (i.e. networkempire's above post)

        Originally Posted by Christian Cee View Post

        The problem with app creation is pretty similar to Internet Marketing where many people flood the market and are looking for a pay day. You get these "App Gold rush" claims left and right, but if you do your homework you will see just what you are up against. Not that I don't encourage people to follow what they want to do, but if you are doing it purely for the money, or not prepared to spend many years without making money, then don't get caught up with all the hype. There is way too much hype out there, another reason why the market is flooded with newbies, and yes, only a very minor number of people ever see a small pay check, much rather a big one.*

        If this is your passion, then go for it, but again, don't get caught up in all the get rich hype that is not true, specially with apps.
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        • Profile picture of the author Its Trish
          Dan,
          One thing I forgot to mention. If you're going to make an app, focus on iPhone and don't waste time wih Android (GooglePlay). Developers are leaving Android in droves, because they're making only 25% with Android compared to what they're making with Apple. (news link here)
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          • Profile picture of the author sipero
            Originally Posted by Its Trish View Post

            Dan,
            One thing I forgot to mention. If you're going to make an app, focus on iPhone and don't waste time wih Android (GooglePlay). Developers are leaving Android in droves, because they're making only 25% with Android compared to what they're making with Apple. (news link here)
            Your argument is flawed. There are now more new Android devices be activated everyday when compared to iphone. If developers are leaving Android in their droves that is truly good news as there will be fewer developers competing for their business.
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  • Profile picture of the author seomike
    Hello Trish,

    I've recently read a statement on a Dutch Business Authority site (z24.nl), "Even though Apps economy is booming, only a few is making real money" They backed their statement on some reports:

    - How the Music Industry Explains the Weird Economics of the App World - Derek Thompson - The Atlantic

    - The Music Industry's New Math -- New York Magazine


    Your contribution is a real eye opener. Could you recommend some sites or courses (no WSO stuff please ) with useful info on ASO?

    Thanks!
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    • Profile picture of the author gamescorpion
      @Christian: Hey Christian hows it goin? lol (BTW: Abhinav Gupta) I saw your name and I was like, "HEY it's Christian from our mastermind group!" lolll

      @All: To be quite frank with everyone on the topic of Apps, I'm a trainer and also have my own app programs with students and run my own app business full time with 25+ apps in various markets across the board. In my opinion it will take a solid year for app developers to really see anything worthy of a basic amount of money (With most of your money coming in December). It comes back to the whole, "Get Rich Quick" scheme mentality that I see a lot of new app devs get into when starting off. Firstly the market has various waves throughout the year in the App world. To expect that your app will make millions overnight is like buying a lottery ticket. I agree with Christian, it's something you want to have a passion for, and must focus on.

      I'm a full time App Developer and App Business Owner/Trainer. Don't get fooled into believing that you'll make thousands or even millions overnight. This is a serious business and takes time, planning, product development, consistency, branding, etc. If you treat it like a business, then yes you can definitely make money in the app world. But then that goes for any business you are looking to get into. I'd say for the MAJORITY of app developers, it will take a solid 1-2 years before you start seeing something called "REGULAR" income that may help you to quit your day job and enjoy the life most people dream of. My first app for example cost me thousands of dollars and took 8 months to build only to see it flop and me nearly giving up on the whole business all together. Thank God I kept going, and now today have over 25 apps across many markets, full training programs and even books coming out for 2013. I can tell you that if I was not passionate about this stuff, I would have given up after losing a lot of money after the first app.

      Here are some realistic details:
      1 app on avg brings in cash flow for between 2-8 weeks and then dies off (without any further marketing put into it), however that depends on the time of the year. I could make an app in January that gets a solid amount of downloads during the LAUNCH phase. After that in about 1-3 months it just dies out and goes into what I call "App Oblivion" where the app can only be found via search (Without additional marketing to push its ranks up). The app can then go "ZOMBIE" which means it comes back to life out of oblivion and is given new life again during the year at a certain time either due to the season or global/economical changes. Example: Soccer app, launched in January, does well for 3 weeks, goes into oblivion, doesn't make much sales until christmas, then next year it's world cup time, and the app goes ZOMBIE because of all the soccer buzz, and rises the charts again, and repeats the lifecycle. Another example: Flashlight app, lower sales during the year, then Hurricane Sandy hit, and all those flashlight apps got massive sales spikes and went Zombie for a while.

      So in a nutshell:
      CAN YOU MAKE MONEY WITH APPS: YES!

      Can you make money FAST: YES...If you're the SMALL percentage that gets lucky, and I'm talking about lottery style odds here that you hit an app that makes you a millionaire overnight. To be realistic, chances are around 99.9% chance (in my opinion, and I'm an OPTIMIST by the way!) that you will NOT make money fast. But hey if you want to blow your funds on the get rich quick mentality, go ahead lol

      APP WORLD A GOLD MINE? It Is, Was, and Continues to evolve. What I mean by that is that when it first started, the gold mine was just making ANY app. You can't do that now, and so that gold mine is gone. The new version of the gold mine has shifted to creating more useful apps that are free to download and people can purchase inside the app for more functionality (known as freemium). The gold mine however is SHIFTING and you will start seeing a new shift starting in 2013 from Mobile Devices (Phones/Tablets) and getting into actual CONSUMER PRODUCTS! Expect to see apps inside fridges, cars, laundry machines, coffee machines, etc. and even a new video game console called OUYA that is based on Android! Apps are evolving and the gold mine is shifting directions. Those who can keep ahead of the upcoming trends in the market can keep on the trail of the "APP GOLD MINE" lol...but once again, if you look at it like a get rich quick scheme, then there's gold mines everywhere and you'll loose a lot of money trying to chase them all. As Christian said, if you don't love making apps and games and being a developer, then I would recommend finding something else you love.

      @Trish: I agree with a lot of what you've said, but about the Android (Google Play) market, I have to disagree as those people are leaving if they don't understand how to monetize on Google Play. That aside however you are correct on the amount of money coming in generally speaking, it is smaller than iOS, but that's if you're looking at flat out purchases. For this reason using creative forms of monetization is a better way in Android. That too if you are going to go Android, I'd recommend making sure you have your app in the various other android markets, especially Amazon, Nook and Samsung. You'll make a LOT more and will even see heavy results when you combine those markets. We ourselves make a lot of money from the alternative android markets and the various forms of monetization methods available. Both markets have different methods to make it. iOS has quality paying users, Android does not. There are several things happening in the markets that are shifting Android more to really start competing properly with iOS. We will start seeing more of those shifts in the business in 2013 and beyond as we start to see things like Gift Cards for Google Play, NFC devices allowing virtual wallets, new devices running on Android, etc.

      I'd say that all that is required is a different marketing and monetization strategy for Android and people won't be leaving Android as much. Infact the platform I do see people leaving behind is RIM Blackberry. Android devices are plentiful and infact they are amongst the strongest devices in the East (With massive increases happening in China and South Korea and recently getting into the hands of many in Africa and many other new emerging markets). I wouldn't write Android off at all, infact it is a very solid market that just needs the right marketing mix and a different strategy than the one used for iOS. With the new devices that are coming out, we will see a lot of changes happening in the Android front.

      Anyways that's my take on things...

      God Bless!

      Abhinav Gupta
      Lead Developer and CEO
      Game Scorpion Inc.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Hower
        Originally Posted by gamescorpion View Post

        The new version of the gold mine has shifted to creating more useful apps that are free to download and people can purchase inside the app for more functionality (known as freemium).
        Hi Abhinav,

        thanks for your very interesting contribution. Lots of stuff to think about.

        Originally Posted by gamescorpion View Post

        The new version of the gold mine has shifted to creating more useful apps that are free to download and people can purchase inside the app for more functionality (known as freemium).
        How would one do that?

        I had that in mind, and I have been told that exactly that is not allowed in the Apple Store.

        Thanks
        Dan Hower
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        • Profile picture of the author gamescorpion
          @Dan: Hi Dan, firstly thanks for a great question! Im wondering who told you freemium is not allowed on Apple? In-app purchases are Apples main method of choice! Infact they are using that as their way to reduce duplication with lite versions of apps that was a popular model in the past (even though you can still make lite versions). If you're totally new to the app world, then understand the first thing that is there are three basic style of apps that you can create, namely Native, Mobile and Ad-hoc (btw these all fit under the umbrella of Mobile Apps). Native is getting into the actual app store (Native basically means any app that runs on the device directly, not inside of a browser). That takes around 1-2 weeks per app for approval and that too if its approved. Mobile apps (also known as WEB APPS) require nothing more than a web browser and can be in some cases just as powerful. Limitations of mobile web apps are that a user requires internet access to use your app and the marketing all relies on you as the Apple app store does not help in any way. Ad hoc apps are usually in-house apps made to cater for specific companies or for a person to sell outside the app store. Like a mobile app they require your own marketing, but unlike a mobile version they are native in the sense that they install directly on a users device and thus usually do not require internet to use. Ill be writing a blog post on this topic later on.

          Examples of the types of apps available:
          Native: Anything you can find in the app store like angry birds, clocks, utilities, etc.
          Mobile: Always web based, and cannot be installed on a users device. Requires internet. Ex. Mobile websites and mobile browser apps (monetization is still possible with this as well)
          Adhoc: Usually in-house apps. Ex. Company xyz wants all their employees with iphones to be able to access their internal customer relationship management tool (crm) while on the road but its accessed on their iphone, not via web browser. The software tool is for employees only and not something to monetize in this case. Other options are making your own apps without having them go out to the app store and you put monetization into them, but you would be responsible to market and sell them on your own.

          The most luxurious area to monetize is native, followed by mobile. What you will see being sold in many programs that say "you dont need to know programming, make apps fast, etc. etc." are usually mobile apps via websites, unless they offer a tool to go native. I can assure you to make native apps does take a lot more time to get into the app store as the approval process is lengthy. Mobile browser apps however do not require approvals from apple, so many try and use this as a simple method. The other method is having an elegant app making tool that people then sell to others focusing on selling to other business owners locally. Apple approves good looking ones and then inside these apps business owners can do things to monetize their business. This is a good working model, but you will need to focus on businesses.

          Note: the above methods are Apple iOS methods. Android methods are slightly different.

          Ahh i can type forever on the topic lol, i have just started my blog on our website recently and also have a lot of stuff coming out. Pm me if you want to join up as i dont want to advertise here as thats not my point. Just trying to help out.

          Anyways hope that gave you a little more insight into the world of apps, there is a lot involved and does take dedication as the mobile app world changes constantly and i can assure you it is no get rich quick scheme. Its a business that requires dedication, you get out of it what you put into it!


          Abhinav
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan Hower
            Originally Posted by gamescorpion View Post

            Pm me if you want to join up as i dont want to advertise here as thats not my point. Just trying to help out.
            Thanks a lot Abhinav, I will send you a PM now.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    Abhinav, how are you? And welcome to the Warrior Forum, I hope to see a lot more posts from you coming soon.

    You got some great info, and solid advice that many of us can put to use. I"m definitely keeping an eye on the app market and seeing how it develops rapidly, specially in the area of how apps can be marketed/promoted.

    Again, thanks for all the great info.
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  • Profile picture of the author sdalby
    Is there a market for app development and can you make a regular return on selling multiple apps a month to create a steady income?
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  • Profile picture of the author zardon
    I write apps, but its more of a creative outlet for myself, experimenting with ideas -- I have sold the service to write apps -- but it can be hard, very hard, to explain to businesses why they should spend $5k+ on developing a mobile app.

    Writing apps for a living? I guess its possible, you need a good strategy, a good team, lots of projects you are willing to fail on; its a business.
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    • Profile picture of the author gamescorpion
      @Christian: Hello, thanks for the great welcome! I hope to be able to help out when I can, its quite busy on my end as you can imagine, with a book launch on the way, app developer training programs and of course December rush, its crazy busy! Hopefully i'll be able to spend more time contributing to the community some of the knowledge I have

      @sdalby: YES! But then again there is a market for most items you are planning to sell. I mean you really need to love this stuff in order to get into it. If you're looking for get rich quick (AKA -> Get Poor Fast) schemes, then I can show you a lot of them that will start popping up over time for this business. Its as hot as the real estate market was before where everyone wanted to get into it, but had no clue what info was real, what info was a scam and what info would make them money.

      Listen, If you're serious about making it as an app developer and don't intend to know anything in the software world, then good luck on your business because you will have a challenge trying to succeed. I know many programs out there that say outsource things or that you don't need to know anything about programming, etc. etc. Try selling cars not knowing anything about how cars work! LOL! I've seen too many new developers sign up, have their "OUTSOURCED" staff in India/China create a quick app for them, then come time to update, they go MISSING or just can't handle your business anymore. Then when new "SDKs" come out or new OS for devices come out or even completely new devices, the same new app business owners are left clueless. If you don't eat/sleep and breathe technology, then I would not recommend this business to you. If you're just mildly intrigued about it, I would recommend taking a basic programming class for iOS programming and start to learn about what you're getting into. WHY? Because as you will start to learn, this business changes EVERY day.

      Today its iPhone 5 with iOS 6, tomorrow it will be iPhone 10 with iOS 15. If you don't know what the hell a "screen resolution" is or what a pixel is, then sure you can outsource it all and you can make money for a while, but it will be hard to last in this industry without knowing this stuff. When a new requirement for graphics comes out from iOS (Ex. how we were all forced to go from 512x512 to 1024x1024 for pixel size of our icons), knowing who to talk to for that is important. If for example new privacy settings require you to update sdk's and your xCode to a newer version before submitting, are you comfortable with that? If not, do you trust your IT developers in India/China to do the fix and upload things for you. If they do, how much would that cost you?

      Keep in mind, the more you outsource, the higher the cost of running this business goes. It can be as low as $5,000 to start or as high as $100,000+ to start. It really depends on you and what you're planning to put into it. Stop going for gimmicks, in all honesty -> This business takes a solid 1-2 years to see real decent income and much more than a single app to make it. Anyone else who tells you you can do it in a week or like 1-2 months is playing the get rich quick card to make you believe you will hit it as the next angry birds (as I've stated before, lottery ticket odds).

      FACT: Most app developers who start will usually FAIL or SCREW UP on their first app and loose money (or earn very little) learning the ropes. After that they will read more, make more, do more and keep on making more apps. BTW: Angry Birds, had several investors and lots of money to market their game. I'm talking hundreds of thousands of dollars and that too they nearly went bankrupt after making 50+ apps before they launched Angry Birds! (Rovio Entertainment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) (How Rovio Makes Money - Business Insider)

      So I hope this gives a bit of reality to the point here...If you Don't love this stuff, stay clear of it is the best advice I can give. If you're looking to mess around as a hobby then fine. Who knows, yes you could very well make the next angry birds or big major app, but for anyone to promise you millions of dollars overnight or to quit your job tomorrow, chances are they are just trying to quit their OWN jobs tomorrow by scamming you. (Just my opinion on that). And btw, Just making an app doesn't mean it will be successful, that's where solid MARKETING is required at that point. If you're on WF for a long time, then I'm going to assume you've got some marketing background and so that should not be as much of a challenge for you.

      Here's a quick LITMUS test to see if someone is the REAL DEAL or not:

      Firstly my own background (So you know I'm not just some con artist giving you BS info):
      -Lead Developer and CEO of Game Scorpion Inc.
      -I am a graduate of Computer Science from Ryerson University in Toronto, Ontario, Canada
      -I run a blog, write constant tutorials, working on my own major programs and tools for the App Business
      -I have spoken personally in various app venues to both end users and developers
      -I have been personally interviewed as an app developer/app business owner and app trainer in various publications
      -My company has launched over 25+ apps across many markets (Varies per market) such as:
      Apple App Store: Connecting to the iTunes Store.
      Google Marketplace: https://market.android.com/developer...+Scorpion+Inc.
      Amazon Appstore for Android: Amazon.com: Game Scorpion Inc.: Apps for Android
      Nook Bookstore on BN.com: Game Scorpion Inc. - Barnes & Noble
      Blackberry App World: Game Scorpion Inc - BlackBerry App World
      AND MANY MORE!
      -I run and own this business, its not a business that I just sold off to the highest bidder that you can't find anywhere. I have relevant information from what I know in the industry recently, not from years ago. This industry changes very fast.
      -I TRAIN other app developers
      -I do have a book coming out in January that is based on real life experience in this industry
      -I've been making video games and programming since I was a young boy
      -I'm in the IT FIELD
      -I've been in the app industry for a few years and the IT industry for well over 10+ years.

      OK NOW ONTO THE LITMUS TEST FOR PROGRAMS:
      1. All these programs have things that do work, so don't misunderstand my main message. You can find something that works in most programs, but its all based on what stage of the app business you are in. Look for LEGITIMATE dealers of this information. Also be prepared to get a lot of common stuff in every program.

      2. Deal only with those who have results and experience, don't just take marketing gurus who are showing you how to market apps. If Shoe's were the next fad, I'm sure these same marketing gurus would have a program for selling shoes put together in 5 minutes without very much knowledge on shoes. Don't get me wrong, marketing is a VERY important part of the App business, but This is a SOFTWARE APPLICATION (APP) BUSINESS! There is no Captain of a ship that does not know every nook every cranny of their ship! If you can't pick up the code when a developer leaves you stranded (Or know of someone who can), or you can't get things changed fast when the entire industry brings out new devices that make your old apps obsolete, then you'll be left with lifeboats trying to stay afloat as your apps are no longer downloaded due to these sort of changes.

      3. DREAM BIG DREAMS, but don't fall for the scams. Get Rich Quick as I stated above = Get Poor Fast. If the program you are dealing with guarantees you that no programming is ever required and/or you can make thousands of dollars in a short period of time (I think I just saw one recently saying make $1000 in 7 days)...RUN FAR THE HELL AWAY! Like it or not, you will have to know about some form of programming for several reasons:
      -You're getting into the Software Application Business (APPs Are Programs)
      -When you outsource your app creation to companies across the world, how do you know you're getting a fair deal? If you know nothing of programming, guess what, if you get charged $10,000 for an app, your low knowledge on programming will make you loose more money than you have to. How do you know it is worth $10k? Just because an app looks pretty and does 1-2 functions does not make it worth $10k. What do you do when you have over 100 apps you want to make? Pay millions?
      -When the platforms/tools/hardware changes, being ontop of those changes can give you the competitive edge against others who are NOOBs in the industry.
      -Even if you use a RAPID EASY SOFTWARE (WYSIWYG) to create an app, you still need to know the industry terminology. What are Push Notifications? What is eCPM for Advertising? What are SDKs? What is xCode/Eclipse? What is a provisioning profile? What is Application Loader? etc.
      -And if you've seen those programs that target small businesses in your local area, yes you can sign a contract to make an app for them in a week for $1500. Sure you'll get paid. Now guess what, you'll also have to deal with that customers issues when they have problems with their app. How do you deal with customers who are calling you for functionality that you have no clue about? If customer X calls you and says, "I want PUSH NOTIFICATIONS" and you're like "WHA?"...how far do you think you'll get with that $1500? lol You have to KNOW your business and an APPLICATION business requires you to know terms, programming and technology. If this is not your cup of tea, don't get into it.

      4. Who's the teacher? Does he/she have apps in the market? BTW: Just because an app has a lot of negative/mixed reviews does not make it a bad app. In our industry there is a lot of FAKE reviews. These look like real reviews but are either paid reviews by COMPETITORS to try and reduce ranks of other app business owners, or non-paid reviews by users who just really did not understand the app. If you see Angry Birds, they have THOUSANDS of 1 star reviews. Yet Angry Birds is obviously a HIT app. So don't just go based on that, see how many apps the trainer/teacher has and how long they have been in the industry.

      5. Does the teacher/trainer have a website?

      6. What specifically am I being sold? Is it get rich quick? A Business Model? A Marketing Plan? Real World Knowledge? You'll notice that a lot of these app programs will focus on "get rich quick" to try and make you buy their programs fast. Imagine if I had the magic "FORMULA" to making millions...would I sell it to you for $9.99? LOL! Seriously, think about it.

      The truth of the matter is, many teachers who are real app developers have KNOWLEDGE, but no magic pill to get rich quick. That's all you should ever expect from any program as well. If you take the info and do no work, then 100% of the programs will fail and will be garbage. If you follow the advice of several programs and work at them, you will see better results.

      I have a program coming out in 2013, but its after I launch my book, I don't have all the knowledge in the app world as it changes daily, but that's how this business works, you get some knowledge here, some knowledge there, put it all together and you get a stronger business. Don't just rely on one source.

      I hope this helps give you a detailed answer on if there is a market and if you can make regular income. Final answer: Yes there is a market, Yes you can make a regular income. It requires a few years to set up properly, and dedication to this BUSINESS. Heed the warnings and info I have provided above, because if you go into the business without taking what I've stated above into consideration, then in my professional opinion, you're better off taking your investment money to Vegas!

      God Bless!

      Abhinav
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  • Profile picture of the author Appopolis
    We encourage app developers to join our Canadian site to avoid pitfalls and not receive ROI.
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    Canada's Mobile App Jobs Portal

    http://www.appopolis.ca

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