Why You Should NEVER Hire a Cheap Copywriter

[Daniel Scott]

Lately, I've been seeing a disturbing trend... people are raving about the "cheap" copywriter they have who does "awesome work"... then crying a few days later because the letter turned out crap.

To these people, I have one question... are you really that surprised?

As copywriters, our job is to make sure that whatever product we're selling has a huge perceived value. It increases sales.

If your copywriter is writing letters for $100, it's for one reason... they are unable to sell themselves. And if they can't sell themselves... what makes you think they'll do any better with your product?

Now, I'll admit, there is OCCASIONALLY a decent cheap copywriter. But I'd be surprised if they did more than, say, five letters until they hit the 4-figure mark (at least).

For those of you not "in the know"... here's why we copywriters charge so much...

For a start, it takes years of practise to hone your skills to a point where you can write good copy. And that's years of consistent, hard work... studying textbooks, analyzing other people's letters, writing your own letters... again and again and again... until you can consistently write letters that make sales.

Plus, a letter isn't a one-day job. Writing a letter involves researching a market, analyzing the competition, constructing a USP, learning the product/service inside out, and "laying out" the letter... and all this happens before you even start writing the damn thing.

Let me tell you, writing copy is intense. It's a slow, sometimes painful process that really exhausts you mentally... and it takes a LOT of time. Hell, even just writing a headline can take me hours. Sure, it'll end up being a killer headline... but it takes a long time.

Then after you write the letter you have to keep going back over it, fine-tuning and polishing it until you have cut out every unnecessary word... conveyed the perfect balance of reason and emotion... and basically crafted a finely-honed sales machine.

Plus, there are way more business owners than there are GOOD copywriters. There's a reason guys like Vin Montello or Ray Edwards charge five figures a letter... because they make their clients that many, many times over with their killer letters.

No one ever complains that their doctor charges too much. After all, he's been to medical school for years and you NEED a good doc... not just any old hack.

Copywriting is the same.

Time and time again I see people put up cheap copy that looks (to the untrained eye) as though it's well written... but upon close inspection the holes start to appear. The headline's too long and wordy. The copywriter hasn't hit the key emotions of the target market. There are crucial components of the sales copy left out... etc etc.

And it's no surprise, really. If you write a letter for $100, you can spend a maximum of five, maybe six hours on that letter... and that number includes the time you spend doing the quote and soliciting the client.

The average letter takes the average good copywriter about 40 hours. Some letters are more, some are less, and it always "depends", but 40 hours is a realistic figure.

If you worked for 40 hours for $100... you'd be looking at $2.50 an hour.

You would quit and go to Macca's where you'd earn three times that at minimum wage.

This is why hiring a "cheap" copywriter is a bad idea... because they don't have the skills to do your product justice... and even if they did, they don't have the time to spend on a letter because they have to do a crazy amount of letters just to pay the bills.

Is it possible you find a great writer for cheap, who is writing his first letter? Maybe, but it's about as probable as winning the lottery. If you like to gamble, go for it... but I don't screw around when it comes to my business.

And to those of you who think I'm doing this as some kind of "copywriting conspiracy" so we can keep our prices "high"... think again.

I charge $3 000 for a letter right now. Most people don't have that kind of cash, and 99.99% of the time people who hire $100 writers don't have $3 000 (and I'm on the low side for a good copywriter).

I'm simply making this post so a few less people get burned.

Most of you will read it and never listen to it... but I hope this helps at least a few people understand WHY good copy is so expensive... and why it kind of has to be.

Kind regards,

-Dan

[Paul McQuillan]

Dan, I am catching what your dropping but I need to pump
the breaks a little here.

There is no doubt that there is an abundance of "copywriters"
who are on chapter 2 of The Ultimate Sales Letter and feel
they have it down.

But does that mean that every person that writes copy for a
couple hundred bucks is crap? You bring up Vin and Ray on what
they charge, they earned the right to charge that. They also had
a time when they charged very little.

At what point do I charge 5 figures? What if I am fairly new but
have a knack for writing copy and need to build my portfolio?

Is it then wrong for some guy who created his first product on
a tight budget to pay me $200 for a page?

I feel your angst from all the bullsh-t people post, and the crap
they are selling to desperate start-ups... but they aren't all bad.

Due diligence should be taken when hiring anyone.

For a start up the copy does not need to be great, it needs to
be good enough. Great will come as funds grow to upgrade
to a better copywriter.

Also since you charge $3K a letter you are biased

that's what I think anyway...

[Chris Ramsey]

Dan, right on man.

Paul, we all have to start somewhere. There's nothing wrong with pumping out $100 letters at all. We have all done it at one point or another.

However, the thing people need to realize is, if they can afford it, their business will be MUCH better off by hiring a copywriter who charges more.

Dan talked about it a little, and I'd like to expand on the idea of money.

Right now I charge between $2k and $4k for a sales letter (with design). By charging that amount, I am able to spend two solid weeks on a letter, and on nothing else. By having that sort of time input, I can take all the time in the world to research the niche, the buyers, the owner, the product, and anything else that needs to be researched.

It's mega-important that research takes time. If you rush it, you won't get every last drop of info-y goodness out of the material. Clients that are truly IN BUSINESS understand this. Clients that are just getting started out on the highway to making money on their own don't quite yet.

Again, that's ok. Everyone starts out somewhere. I guess that's the point I'd like to get across.

Those new to business (if they are low on funds) are going to do decently by hiring a green copywriter. Those who have been around the block are MUCH more likely to hire someone that has proven themselves time and time again.

[Raydal]

Interestingly, just yesterday I was listening to an interview by
Gary Halbert and he made the same points about 'cheap' copy.

Genius Network Interview Series

It's not everyone who is trying to make money online is
business minded. Businesses think about ROI and not
just the upfront cost.

It is also nerve racking for a new IM to shell out a couple
thousand for a copywriter if they have never been in a
business before. So many people who go into offline
marketing are surprised by how much these businesses
pay for, say, a yellow page ad that may not bring them
any business.

As Gary was explaining, cheap copy cost while expensive
copy pays. Good copywriting is really free!

Halbert said in that interview that back in the 80's he charged
a guy $15K to write a letter (which was huge back then) and
he made $40 Million from the letter. Now that letter was FREE!

When a marketer places enough confidence in me to pay my fees
I don't take this lightly. I know, most of the times, he is taking
a big risk. But copywriting does take a lot of mental energy
and to write competently and cheaply is committing financial
suicide.

I would dare say that it is IMPOSSIBLE to sustain a copywriting
business writing on the cheap because you will quickly reach
the point where all the joy for writing evaporates with your
bank account.

An army still marches on its stomach.

-Ray Edwards

[Paul McQuillan]

I totally agree Chris.

The people Dan referred to sounded like people who
likely could not afford to spend thousands.

I feel there are two totally different situations here. Because it
is on this forum and a lot of people are new I just wanted
to make a point- Don't mortgage your home on a product that is
yet unproven.

The best copy in the world will not save a unneeded thingy

For those of you out there who have the money for skilled
talent, quit being cheap as it will destroy what you built.

If I have a $5k budget you better believe I am going to invest that
into growing my business. I want $5k talent with $50k results

[Raydal]

Originally Posted by Onslaught

I feel there are two totally different situations here. Because it
is on this forum and a lot of people are new I just wanted
to make a point- Don't mortgage your home on a product that is
yet unproven.

The best copy in the world will not save a unneeded thingy

I totally agree with you here Paul. If a copywriter can even
'smell' that the product is poor (as well as the prospect) it
is unethical to take his money.

If a prospect approaches me and I know in my belly that they
can't afford my fees AND the product is not likely to sell then
I ask them to try someone else.

Plus, it will be too stressful to write for a client whose life
depended on the success of my copy. I really don't need
that added pressure, thank you.

-Ray Edwards

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Now, I'll admit, there is OCCASIONALLY a decent cheap copywriter.

If you're saying there are decent, cheap, copywriters out there, why should people NEVER hire one?

I just saw one of the copy guys on this forum do a promotion for copy for less than $200 bucks. And he writes well.

Marketing can be profitable with decent copy and offers will still convert.

[TimCastleman]

Dan:

I get what you are saying but remember the internet has a memory:

*CLOSED*

Where you offered your own cheap sales letters when you got started. I know you're far beyond that now but remember when in glass house stones should not be played with.

[Hugh Thyer]

Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer

If you're saying there are decent, cheap, copywriters out there, why should people NEVER hire one?

I just saw one of the copy guys on this forum do a promotion for copy for less than $200 bucks. And he writes well.

Marketing can be profitable with decent copy and offers will still convert.

Yes, but if his client gets a fair bit of traffic and has a decent offer, how many more sales will the client have to get to cover the extra fees? If its a $30 eBook, the better writer only has to help sell 100 more to pay their $3000 fees. After that they're left with a higher converting page that'll earn them much more.

Its not how much money the cheaper writer makes, its how much more a better writer COULD make.

I understand what you're saying Onslaught. Not everyone can afford the higher fees. But their aim should be to get as good a sales letter as they can afford written, and then plow all their profits back into a better writer ASAP to build up their business.

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by Hugh Thyer

Yes, but if his client gets a fair bit of traffic and has a decent offer, how many more sales will the client have to get to cover the extra fees? If its a $30 eBook, the better writer only has to help sell 100 more to pay their $3000 fees. After that they're left with a higher converting page that'll earn them much more.

I understand how a better copywriter can make more money.

There is a market out there for cheap, decent, copywriters. Not everyone can afford copy at 1k or more. And that's cheap for a good copywriter!

Originally Posted by Hugh Thyer

Its not how much money the cheaper writer makes, its how much more a better writer COULD make.

What does it matter how much a better copywriter could hypothetically get someone if they can't afford it?

That's the point. Not everyone can afford a high priced copywriter.

And decent ones still convert and make money.

[MontelloMarketing]

Sorry to jump in but why do so many disregard the idea that sure... there are needles to be found in the haystack... but they're few and far between. MOST of the time hiring someone who can't command more than $200 a sales letter, you're going to get a $200 sales letter. And $200 sales letters don't make you 6 figures... 5 figures... or even mid-4 figures.

And that's just for sales letters. Early on I was approached to write 10 autoresponders for $150. That's $15 per email. How much time does a copywriter have to weave persuasion into an email he's getting paid $15 for?

You know, I don't come to the warrior forum looking for work. My clients tend to be elsewhere. 90% of the time I'm here just trying to help people not make costly mistakes.

So... when I say you should at least... AT LEAST get to 4 figures when looking for a copywriter to write a sales letter, I'm not doing it to serve myself at all. It's just that there's a big difference (in most cases) between a $200 copywriter and even a $1,000 copywriter.

There is an ancillary benefit to me, however.

If these young marketers are kept from making big mistakes, they have a better chance to hire one of my students next time. And hiring one of them gives them a better chance of affording me in a year or two. So... sure I'm not being completely altruistic. But still the person benefiting most from my advice is the young marketer.

If you've only got $200 today... then don't launch yet. Save up some more money... get a more proven copywriter. Or better yet... Spend your $200 on some great learning material and learn to write it yourself!

Copy is an extremely important part of marketing. If you can do it yourself think how much you can save... and make in the future!

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

If you've only got $200 today... then don't launch yet. Save up some more money... get a more proven copywriter. Or better yet... Spend your $200 on some great learning material and learn to write it yourself!

Copy is an extremely important part of marketing. If you can do it yourself think how much you can save... and make in the future!

This might be the best piece of advice in the whole thread IMHO. Copywriting is the most expensive thing to outsource for an online business because it's probably the most important part. And it's the one service that many people mistakenly shop on price instead of the copywriter's reputation, track record, and skill level for delivering great copy.

When I owned a massage therapy center, I couldn't afford to hire a good marketing consultant or copywriter then. My overhead was just too high to justify paying out hundreds or even thousands of dollars for help.

So I took some time and learned how to write my own marketing. It turns out I enjoyed doing it so I kept studying and practicing my craft. Eventually I decided to do it professionally and the rest is history.

If you know how to write a basic sales letter then you will never find yourself in a bind when you need copywriting help.

If you can't afford to hire a copywriter... or just as likely, you can't find a good copywriter that can take your project and deliver in time to meet your deadline, then you can always write a basic sales letter yourself.

Plenty of your online gurus have learned how to write decent or even fairly good copy themselves for this reason alone.

Some of the best affiliate promotional emails I've ever read are written by John Reese and Yanik Silver... neither one is a copywriter for hire.

Food for thought,

Mike

[jjssj]

Paying more for content doesnt always offer better quality, these is some game plan in markters brains more content more traffic this is not the way anymore, better quality gets ahead of all the nosense, and this is what stands out and gets noticed.

[MontelloMarketing]

jjssj,

You're confused. No one is talking about content here. We're talking about sales copy.

Originally Posted by jjssj

Paying more for content doesnt always offer better quality, these is some game plan in markters brains more content more traffic this is not the way anymore, better quality gets ahead of all the nosense, and this is what stands out and gets noticed.

[Kevin Lam]

I had to stop in and say thanks to both Daniel and Paul. Both of you are great friends by-the-way.

I had to thank both of you, because there truly is 2 sides to this story. On one hand, we have to keep in mind that you get what you pay for. On the other hand, we need to remember that we all have to start some where - even if that means $100 sales letters.

I had my first WSO last week on copywriting. It was offered at $197 and I grabbed up 5 clients. I closed it after that but then still ended up with 2 more clients at regular price. While it took 5 people to be $15 short of $1,000, the other 2 clients at regular price got me closer to 5 figures.

The first sales letter I ever wrote was when I was 18/19 years old and it brought in nearly $200,000. Back then, I didn't even know what "copywriting" was. I just read around, picked up concepts and strategies, and I applied them as best I could in my own way.

Only recently did I actually started writing sales letter for other people and have been achieving great conversions and increasing sales for my clients. I don't have a whole lot of clients, but the ones I do have all have benefited from my writing.

But because my testimonial and portfolio on copywriting is so small, I held that WSO to get things going. Does that make me a cheap writer?

Yeah, it does.

But does that mean my copywriting is cheap? No way! I give them my all as if it were my own. I provide strategies and concepts the client might not have thought of. So I provide my consulting time as if they were paying full price.

I got an email this morning from a *regular* client:

HI KEVIN
one thing i like about you is you are straight to the point and sincere
you also remind me of Donald trump attitude wise i love it , its what WORKS!!!

My wife and I had a great laugh. Not that it's funny, I was just surprised. All I did was gave him a strategy on how to boost his income by about $5,000+/month.

When I offered my WSO at $197 a sales letter, it made me feel dirty and worthless, but I KNOW that by offering myself so low I can prove myself to the new clients, get new testimonials, build long-term business relationship (to get paid more in the future) and eventually gain more business through their testimonials.

Is it worth it? Of course. I know that my future clients will be happy to be paying 4-5 figures for my copywriting. And so, we all have to start somewhere. Even the existing WSO clients are offering more work to me at regular price.

So do keep in mind that cheap isn't always crap, but be mindful of the crap that's out there.

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by scheda

However, the thing people need to realize is, if they can afford it, their business will be MUCH better off by hiring me.

I agree scheda .

Originally Posted by Kevin Lam

I had my first WSO last week on copywriting. It was offered at $197 and I grabbed up 5 clients.

I missed out on that great offer.

I don't even need copy right now and I wanted in!

[Kevin Lam]

Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer

I missed out on that great offer.

I don't even need copy right now and I wanted in!

Yeah, sorry about that. I didn't want to promote it in my signature because I didn't want more than 5. At first, I was going to accept 10, but realized 5 would be enough. I don't think I'll have another WSO like that ever again though.

[ndcole78]

There are all sides to this issue to consider. I know it probably better than anyone....I'm the originator of the $197.00 sales letter years ago, though I don't actively advertise it anymore.

It really all depends on how you look at it---Most of the writers who say they charge $4,000---$10,000 a letter, usually only write 5-6 letters out of the year at best since they take 2-3 months to write the letter, so that's around $60,000 and maybe 5-6 new clients for the entire year. Less work. However, some charging less for copy will generate $60,000 easy writing copy and will have well over 100 new clients a year that they can market to, selling IM products, memberships, etc., which will carry you well into the 6-figure range--easy. You work a hell of lot harder for your money, but at the end of the month, you'll probably make more than the writer to took a $4,000 job because that's usually the only job the writer got the entire month.

I can tell that by this posts that have been started that some writers who say they charge thousands for the letter are being undercut by the cheap guys and is fueling a lot of these threads.

It really all depends on what YOU are comfortable with. Now the problem with charging for cheap copy is that a lot of your client base will be marketers who are always looking to get something for something for nothing.

For example, the other day, a client of mine who is real active on this forum emailed me asking if I would write a high-converting squeeze page for him and said he's willing to pay $20.00....and he said it like $20.00 was suppose to entice me to want to sit down, and come up with a brilliant concept to make HIS business money. I felt insulted by his email and my response probably ended our working relationship, but for sending that kind of email, I wouldn't want to work with him anymore anyway--but that's the kind of stuff you get yourself into by charging cheap copy.

But on the other hand, the hundreds of other clients that bought cheap copy from me in the past are always emailing me for more copy, sending more people my way and I'm always busy----I'm about 5 months out right now unless you order my rush delivery service, which does cost a lot more.

All I'm saying is that Vin, Mike, Ray, and others all make good points because there is 2 sides to consider. For me, I just plain like to write and I have a lot of other things bringing in money, so my prices are not based on using copywriting as my entire income.

It is very, very, very hard to find a cheap copywriter who actually knows what he or she is doing. And it's also hard to find clients who are looking for bargains who can actually explain exactly what they're looking for.

Now I, as well as most good copywriters have clients fill out questionnaires before starting a project. I had a client about a month ago barely fill the thing out and expected me to know what he wanted like I was a mind reader or something, so I just took what he sent over and ran with it, but then he came back and said he wanted something else, though he could not explain it to me and wanted his money back, which of course I did not agree to do.

Now with that said, just a warning to copywriters looking to get into the cheap copywriting market, because there is definitely a market for it with people cutting back on everything now, just be aware as to things like this because trust me, it will happen.

If you can afford to invest more in copy, then do so, but if you can find a good copywriter for cheap and your funds are limited, then hire that guy.

You would be surprised as to how many of the "gurus" spend money with diamond in the rock copywriters like me. But if that cheap copywriters isn't any good, you can best to believe that that same guru will spend $10,000+ for the letter because they understand that copy is an investment and that they'll place themselves in perfect position to profit more with high-quality copy.

[MontelloMarketing]

Originally Posted by ndcole78

It really all depends on how you look at it---Most of the writers who say they charge $4,000---$10,000 a letter, usually only write 5-6 letters out of the year at best since they take 2-3 months to write the letter, so that's around $60,000 and maybe 5-6 new clients for the entire year.

I never heard of anyone making less than 25K per letter that limit their work to 5-6 per year. That's actually ludicrous. My students who are in that range write a minimum of 10 per year. And most are closer to 15.

Sure... good copywriters take longer. But we're talking about 3 weeks... not 3 months.

I can tell that by this posts that have been started that some writers who say they charge thousands for the letter are being undercut by the cheap guys and is fueling a lot of these threads.

Also not true, nick. Many of these posts are from guys who have no problem getting work at their normal rates.

I understand that it's easy to think "oh, the complainers are just trying to protect their market..." but in this case I think very little of it is that at all. Guys like David are booked months in advance. Even if you could squeeze $3K... or $4K out of a budget minded marketer they couldn't afford david...

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by ndcole78

You would be surprised as to how many of the "gurus" spend money with diamond in the rock copywriters like me. But if that cheap copywriters isn't any good, you can best to believe that that same guru will spend $10,000+ for the letter

I do the same thing. I'll hire someone inexpensive for a job with low urgency, knowing that if they screw it up I have plenty of time to hire someone who will do the job right. If they get it right, I have a lot of room to up my offer and keep them working for me.

[ndcole78]

Point well stated Vin. I respect Vin and a select few others who really know what they're talking about for copywriting as well as understanding the entire marketing process.

The forum is here to help other copywriters as well as marketers if they need it. Both now have the facts and real life examples to look at.

If a copywriter wants to charge less, then let him shoot himself in the foot as some writers are "warning" them about. If the copywriter wants to charge thousands for a letter and is good enough to do so and will use copy as his or her primary source of income, then he should, plain and simple.

It's plenty of work to go around, so the high-dollar writers should not be complaining about the cheap guys and the cheap guys should not be envious of the high-dollar guys.

Like Dan Kennedy said...if you're a copywriter and want more money per letter, then just ask for it.

Stop all the bickering (both sides) and just do what you do!

[Kevin Lam]

Originally Posted by ndcole78

I'm the originator of the $197.00 sales letter years ago, though I don't actively advertise it anymore.

It's not like I saw that there was a template for a $197 sales letter, lol. It's just a number I decided to go with.

I'll hold back on any other comments. Everything is just repetitive here.

Although, I did spot this:

Originally Posted by ndcole78

For example, the other day, a client of mine who is real active on this forum emailed me asking if I would write a high-converting squeeze page for him and said he's willing to pay $20.00....and he said it like $20.00 was suppose to entice me to want to sit down, and come up with a brilliant concept to make HIS business money. I felt insulted by his email and my response probably ended our working relationship, but for sending that kind of email, I wouldn't want to work with him anymore anyway--but that's the kind of stuff you get yourself into by charging cheap copy.

I understand you might be a well respected copywriter some where, but that's just not necessary. The guy certainly doesn't understand the value of your work due to a lack of experience. For you to thrash at him because you felt insulted is taking it a bit too far.

It's like expecting a child to know not to cross the road without looking when no one has taught him to. If you've done your part as a copywriter, the person probably would have came to his senses and tried to come up with the money to pay you more.

Yes, I did the WSO for only $197 and when one of the clients asked me to also write an email series and an OTO, I said no and explained why. He said okay and would be willing to pay more. Done deal. He's also willing to pay regular rates for future projects. How hard was that?

Another client asked me to tackle a different project. Just for that he pays extra. Done deal. I don't know why we can't cut people a little slack. A little kindness here and there goes a long way. So don't always equate cheap copywriting to poor results or little profit.

[thegoddessofeleven]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

No one ever complains that their doctor charges too much.

LOL. I'm afraid I must disagree with you on this point.... I've heard LOTS of people complain about doctors charging too much. In fact, next to arthritis pains, it's probably the most common complaint uttered by octogenarians in the United States...

[ndcole78]

Kevin, the difference between the client that I spoke about who is very active on this forum and successful as a marketer, is that he knows better. In your case, the guy didn't know better and once you informed him, he was fine with it--that happens all the time. That was just one of those days where stuff like that just made me angry, especially from someone who knew better.

---I had a bad day in the stock market that day, so that was a little on my mind if you wanted to know what started my day off bad that day....But then being approached by a marketer who knows better and saying he's willing to pay an entire $20 for a high-converting landing page is crazy on any day.

By the way....Luckily, I've been having a string of great profits in the market.

[Scott Murdaugh]

I've got my .02 to throw in here....

If you dig deep you can find me offering sales copy probably 18 months ago for around $200 a sales letter.

Around 4-5 months ago I ran a WSO for $300 a sales letter.

As I started learning more and getting some experience under my belt, I started to realize that if I couldn't start charging more I was wasting my time. I could make a lot more money just writing my own copy.

My rates literally doubled every month... And I slowly realized the beauty of this business. The $300 letters paid off, because of the success I had with those I have a reputation now.

And when people that hired me in the past for >$1k contact me, I simply tell them that I charge more now... With VERY few exceptions no one blinks an eye. I usually get replies like "About time you came to your senses" or "I kind of expected that".

I stay booked up now at the rates I want to charge, and I don't even look for clients... I seriously don't. And if you look at my website it's not heavily promoted, I'm actually not even happy with the copy on it, but I don't mess with it because I honestly don't have time.

The majority of people I work with now have a few things in common... One is that they took a chance with me when I was relatively unproven in the market. Not all of them, but I'd say 1/2 or so either hired me cheap or where referred to me by someone who hired me cheap.

The second is they already have real businesses that bring in REAL money. And that's critical... You don't want to work with anyone who can't afford you, and for most of us, that's going to be 99% of the people passing through forums like this.

Most people don't have a "few extra grand" sitting around for a sales letter. That's a fact. And I know that I don't want the pressure of someone "staking everything" on my copy...

Yeah, I'm confident in my abilities but if I know in the back of my mind that a family is going to go hungry if my letter isn't a smashing success... I'm not going to do it. I don't need the stress and the client doesn't need the risk.

So instead of trying to "educate" the 99% of people who really aren't in your league anyway... Who can't really afford your upfront fees, target the people who can. It's simple.

And the best part, that "top 1%" who DO value good copy and are willing to pay full asking price over and over again? It only takes a few of them to build a real business... And there are more than enough of these types of clients for all of us anyway.

Point being, writing on the cheap worked out for me... I can't speak for anyone else. But it got my "foot in the door" with some people, it allowed me to prove myself, and it worked out for me.

Looking back, I'm glad I did it.

Here's the kicker though... If you're hiring a rookie writer for a few hundred bucks, consider it a gamble, you may hit a home run.

If you're hiring a writer who's been charging a few hundred bucks a letter for an extended period of time, take a step back and ask yourself "why"?

Because if you're a copywriter, and you have clients who can afford what you want to make, and you've already demonstrated that you're more than worth it, it's just common sense to raise your rates.

You're doing yourself a disservice if you don't. You provide one of the most valuable services on this planet, and you deserve to compensated for it.

Personally, I don't care if a copywriter wants to charge $20 a sales letter... Go for it. And I don't care if people hire that writer all day long. That's not my client base, I'm not marketing to them, so they can hire whoever they want to.

I wouldn't care if one of my clients hired one to "test them out" because I'm confident they'll be back... And even if I lose a client there are a million more out there.

For the copywriters, you have to be good at what you do... In the last year I've digested everything I can get my hands on, from books to seminars and everything else. I'm constantly learning.

No one is ever going to pay you decent money if you don't provide consistent results.

And I'm still on the "cheap" side, but I'm content with that for now, because I make a lot more money than most "writers" make, and things are only looking up from here.

Something else to consider, build a relationship with people. A guy contacted me yesterday, and I spent 2 hours talking to him about his product.

I told him exactly what buttons we needed to press to sell it, I gave him ideas on where to promote it, who to approach for JV's... In short I helped him to see "the big picture" and what everything would look like when it's all said and done.

I even told him that I'd refuse to work with him unless he was going to market this full throttle, because if he's investing this much into me upfront I want to be able to sleep at night, and the only way I can do that is if he's making his money back.

The last thing we talked about was price, and it was the shortest part of the conversation.

Why? Because when you've talked about every other factor involved, from how the product will be positioned to where the traffic comes from, price becomes irrelevant.

I took a product, and basically "gave away" almost every idea I had for marketing and promoting it.

This person could take my ideas and go to a cheaper writer. But he won't because after talking with me he realized I'm someone who knows what the hell they're doing and someone he wants on his side.

And that's the real secret, at least in my limited experience. Be someone who knows what the hell you're doing, and the money will follow.

If you consistently make money for other people, it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to not be making a ton of money yourself, unless you just don't know what you're doing.

If you know what you're doing, and in this business that comes down to making money... You don't have to worry about competing with $197 copywriters, you don't have to haggle with clients on your fees, and you don't have to worry about looking for clients, because eventually they start coming to you.

So instead of trying to "educate" those who can't afford you anyway, focus on proving how valuable you are to people who can afford you.

Because providing value to people who CAN afford you is the surefire way to getting repeat business, getting referrals, getting paid what you want and having clients banging on your door begging you to work with them.

Right now, my biggest worry isn't finding new clients... It's finding bigger clients, or finding time for my own projects, or figuring out how to get to the "next level" as far as my fees go and staying just as booked as I am now.

And those aren't bad problems to have.

That's my take.

-Scott

[Kevin Lam]

LOL, okay, Nicholas. I see what you mean now. In that case, yeah, that's a heck of an insult. Well, glad to know you're doing well in the stock market though. And it's funny, I'm writing for a day trading client. Hope to see this guy make it big.

[Paul McQuillan]

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

If you've only got $200 today... then don't launch yet. Save up some more money... get a more proven copywriter. Or better yet... Spend your $200 on some great learning material and learn to write it yourself!

Copy is an extremely important part of marketing. If you can do it yourself think how much you can save... and make in the future!

I agree with all of this except the "save up". It really depends on what
is launching and the size of the launch.

If it is someones first ebook, DON'T WAIT!. If it is a piece of software or a
higher ticket item- that should launch with everything firing.

I guess we need to define the people bitching about their crappy $100
copy. If Frank Kern hires a guy for a few hundred bucks the world
has come to an end. If it is just someone starting out, not a big deal.

Let's not forget, if the guy hiring does not properly have his lead generation
set up the copy will fail. A $200 or $20,000 letter will nothelp if nobody reads
it or the wrong people read it.

I do love watching the big guns flock to this thread

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Originally Posted by TimCastleman

Dan:

I get what you are saying but remember the internet has a memory:

*CLOSED*

Where you offered your own cheap sales letters when you got started. I know you're far beyond that now but remember when in glass house stones should not be played with.

Interesting!

Having said that, some good points on this thread.

More food for the fire.

Disappears to close his last WSO down.

[TimCastleman]

WP -

Have no fear, my post was not meant to bash anyone. I agree that if you are running your business you need to spend what you can afford to run your business.

If you only have $99, you can try a cheaper copywriter or spend the money and learn copy for yourself. The choice is yours.

I know for a fact that Dan is making better money now and is mentoring wit Vin so his big paydays are coming.

Tim

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Originally Posted by TimCastleman

WP -

Have no fear, my post was not meant to bash anyone. I agree that if you are running your business you need to spend what you can afford to run your business.

If you only have $99, you can try a cheaper copywriter or spend the money and learn copy for yourself. The choice is yours.

I know for a fact that Dan is making better money now and is mentoring wit Vin so his big paydays are coming.

Tim

I didn't take it as a personal 'bash' - I did however see it as rather interesting in light of some recent posts elsewhere by this same gentleman directed towards myself.

Especially considering that his previous Cheap WSO Copywriting Offer was only made some TEN or so weeks ago.

In short it made me silently mouth the words - 'kettle, black'.

That's all.

Thanks for bringing my attention to the point.

Wishing you a great day and my kindest regards.

Mark

[Paul McQuillan]

Originally Posted by TimCastleman

Dan:

I get what you are saying but remember the internet has a memory:

*CLOSED*

Where you offered your own cheap sales letters when you got started. I know you're far beyond that now but remember when in glass house stones should not be played with.

Somehow I missed this post

If I would have seen this my response(s) would have been different.

Hypocrisy I despise, I'll leave it at that

[Daniel Scott]

Wow.

Lots of discussion here. If I may, I'd just like to clarify my position...

First of all, I've made no secret of the fact I used to write for dirt cheap... in fact I'm fairly certain I mentioned it on this forum about 12 hours ago! For the sake of convenience (and because I don't know how to link to specific posts), I've included it here:

There are definitely great copywriters who start out low. Mike Humphreys wrote his first letter for $300 or so, I think, as did Bruce Wedding (I remember reading this somewhere... correct me if I'm wrong guys!).

Vin wrote his first paid letter for $500.

But they're the exception. For every one of them, there's about a thousand hack writers who charge next to nothing and put out crappy work... again, and again, and again...

Think of it like the lottery. Sure, if you buy a ticket, you might win that ten million bucks... but you have a snowball's chance in hell.

Let me tell you something... writing a good letter takes a lot of time. I have never met a good copywriter who can say otherwise. Writing a letter that LOOKS, to the untrained eye (which is why you get a copywriter in the first place, usually) that it will work is easy.

Actually writing one that DOES convert is far, far harder.

To write a good letter, you have to study the market til you know them inside out. Analyze the competition. Intimately aquaint yourself with the client's product. Derive a USP. Understand WHAT you're going to say in the letter...

So, right there, that's probably at least 20 hours worth of work before you start writing.

If you charge $100/letter, that's $5/hr... not exactly worth it when you can make more at Maccas.

Now, understand that I have been a $100 writer... so I know what I'm talking about. When I started out, I did 4 letters for $97/piece... and you know what? Those letters took me about 20 hours each. They were good... not amazing, but good, and from what I hear, the clients who actually used them made some okay money out of them.

So the next two letters I wrote were at $500... and they were better... and took 25 hours each. So now I'm making an okay wage... but still not a great one... considering the insane amount of work that I put into them (and the insane amount of money they have the capacity to generate).

Then I started working with Vin... and my letters are now taking even longer to write... but they're getting pretty good. And I now charge about $3 000 a letter... and that's increasing every letter.

So it's taken me about 10 letters, I think, to go from $100/letter to $3 000/letter... and people who are smarter than I am don't start at $100.

Can you see now why it is next to impossible to get a good writer for $100?

So I'm not pretending to be something I'm not. I used to write for dirt cheap, I admit it, and I'm not ashamed of it. It worked for me at the time.

But, as I said... on those letters I was making a lot less than minimum wage.

Admittedly, I had absolutely NO portfolio or experience in writing letters for other people... it was a wonderful learning experience, blah blah blah... but I never expected to make money out of it... at least not a livable wage.

Scott is another good example. He used to write for cheap... don't think he does anymore. I've seen some of his recent copy and WOW... it is damn good.

Just to be clear... I'm not trying to blast anyone for hiring a cheap copywriter. I've done it a few times... and that's why I decided to start writing my own copy... at the time I just couldn't afford a decent writer. Ironically, now I have the skills to write copy, I actually have my own products that are bringing in income. It's a catch 22 situation, and a lot of people are in it... so I get it, I really do.

I'm not trying to be the guy who covers up where he's come from... not at all. And I'm certainly not pissed that there are cheap copywriters out there.

I'm a musician by trade... when I did it for a living (as opposed to now, where I just take a gig if I think it will be fun), you would constantly be undercut by college or high school kids or "weekenders" who didn't know how to make sure they got a decent price.

The beauty of a free economy is that there are different people willing to work at different price levels... and frankly someone who writes for $100 isn't taking away work from me... just like I'm not taking work away from someone like Vin or Ray, who charge a lot more.

All I am saying is that you are very, very unlikely to get a good copywriter for a few hundred bucks, based on the simple economic realities (ie. time that must be invested) that I have laid out above.

I completely agree with a lot of the advice in this thread, from most of you.

To be clear, I'm not having a go at guys like Kevin... who will write a killer letter for $200, I'm sure (I've seen some of his work, and what I saw was good) but he's not going to write many for that price.

My point is that copywriters specialize in creating words that make money. And when they can do that, demand for their services go up... so their prices go up.

It's a simple economic reality... and that's why you will rarely find a good copywriter who writes for cheap.

Just so we're clear... what I'm getting is that you can't get a Rolls for the price of a Honda. Are there exceptions to that rule? Sure... but they're the needle in a haystack.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to protect my business, I'm not trying to diss other copywriters, and I'm not saying that the people who hire them are stupid... I'm simply saying that you need to have realistic expectations.

-Dan

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by WordPro

I didn't take it as a personal 'bash' - I did however see it as rather interesting in light of some recent posts elsewhere by this same gentleman directed towards myself.

Especially considering that his previous Cheap WSO Copywriting Offer was only made some TEN or so weeks ago.

In short it made me silently mouth the words - 'kettle, black'.

That's all.

Thanks for bringing my attention to the point.

Wishing you a great day and my kindest regards.

Mark

Mark,

As I said, we all start somewhere... and I make no secret of the fact I used to work for cheap.

But, as you yourself pointed out, that didn't last long... and with that WSO I had absolutely ZERO examples of my portfolio etc... Hell, I didn't even have a website selling my services!

In fact, Tim Castleman was actually the guy who indirectly got me into the idea of writing copy for other people... and initially the one who pushed me to charge more! (Thanks, Tim)

I've hired cheap copywriters before... and it never worked out for me. I now understand why... and I'm just trying to share this information with the rest of the forum.

I used to think writing a letter was maybe 5 hours work, tops... needless to say, I was naiive.

I'm not trying to be a dick to you, Mark... I'm just trying to share some of the insights I've picked up recently. You can either accept that there may be a few pointers I've picked up... or you can continue to think I'm out to get you (or whatever).

I wished someone would have shared this info with me when I was starting out... so I realized WHY good copy costs money. I figured there would be others who might benefit from it.

You don't have to take my advice on board. And I can see how this might be misconstrued as hypocritical... but it's not.

I'm not saying all cheap writers are terrible... but I would guess that 99% of the time if someone hires a cheap writer, they'll get crappy copy... and to me that 1% isn't enough of a reason to take a gamble.

As I said, it's like playing the lottery... possible, but very unlikely.

I guess I could have called the thread "Why You Should Almost Probably Never Hire a Cheap Copywriter Unless You Really Know What You're Doing and Can Afford to Lose the Money"... but it doesn't really have the same ring to it, does it?

-Dan

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by Onslaught

Somehow I missed this post

If I would have seen this my response(s) would have been different.

Hypocrisy I despise, I'll leave it at that

Paul,

I respect you greatly... from what I've seen you're a damn good writer and marketer... but I think you're being a little unfair here.

I pretty much covered this all in my above post (reply to WordPro), so hopefully that clarifies things... if not, feel free to post a response in this thread, and we will discuss it further.

My post was simply meant to illustrate the economic realities of copywriting. And, if you recall, I made less than minimum wage on those first letters... I made sure my clients got a good letter.

Most cheap copywriters will not have that kind of integrity. Guys like Kevin will... but they're the exception, not the rule.

Make sense?

-Dan

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer

If you're saying there are decent, cheap, copywriters out there, why should people NEVER hire one?

I just saw one of the copy guys on this forum do a promotion for copy for less than $200 bucks. And he writes well.

Marketing can be profitable with decent copy and offers will still convert.

MM,

Here's the thing... most people can't if someone CAN write good copy or not.

Sure, you can look at their work and see that they know how to string a sentence together... but unless you have basic copywriting skills you won't be able to tell if their writing is likely to convert or not.

Now, I don't know who you are talking about in this specific instance. Someone like Kev, yeah, I would bet his copy will convert... but he's the exception, not the rule (and I dare say he won't be writing at $200 a letter for long!)

Most people don't understand how hard it is to write a letter. I go through around 50 headlines or so each letter I write... I've heard other copywriters go through more. So a headline, a little 10-word phrase... that takes me hours to write properly. And the rest of the letter is like that too.

Most cheap copywriters don't spend the time researching OR editing that is so crucial to a killer letter.

That's why it looks great (to the untrained eye) but doesn't convert.

As I've said... this is all hard-won (for me, anyway) knowledge that I'm passing on. You can either take it or leave it... it doesn't affect me either way. I'm just hoping I can help others avoid making the same mistakes I did.

-Dan

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

You see Dan, this is where I've got just a smidgeon of a problem with you now, for it appears to me that you are now simply trying to cover your own back, and keeping your credibility intact. Nothing wrong with that, that's perfectly understandable.

What I take exception to, is you personally essentially lamblasting cheaper rate copywriters on the basis of your very short forage into this subject arena yourself - making out at first that you are a leading authority on the subject, when patently this is not the case.

By all accounts, you've made the transition from being a cheaper than chips copywriter yourself, indeed, making a WSO offer only two or so months ago offering your services for a couple hundred bucks and then, ramming it down other copywriters throats how superior your view is now on the subject, telling them that basically their own copywriting is a load of rubbish and that other buyers here of copy, should avoid them.

To say this has left a bad taste in my mouth regarding your position, is a mild understatement, for now I'm just thinking that I'm reading an impertinent little whippersnapper, who is actually pretty inexperienced upon the subject himself and is actually getting just a little bit too big for his boots - especially when he has the cheek to rubbish other individuals reputation here, who themselves are offering copywriting at a much lower rate to the very experienced guys.

Now I'm the kind of guy, that really takes learning very seriously.

I can tell you now that my areas of expertise, some of those subjects took years to understand, not just a couple of months and I certainly wouldn't dream of disrespecting other copywriters business endeavors, based on a very short amount of time within the industry sector.

Certainly I have strong opinions and I'm also a very passionate and creative individual and will give as good as I get, but to diss so openly other people, when one is really inexperienced onself, nahhh mate, that's not on.

I can take it from very experienced copywriters who know their writing craft inside out, but from a relative newbie such as yourself, it's a bit of a harder pill to swallow, no offense.

I've been in business now since the very first day I left school at 16 for close to 27 years, writing a lot of my own advertising and marketing material over the years. I've never been insolvent, I've never been bankrupt, my total financial debt in this whole world is no more than $400.00 - That is the total sum of money that I owe to anyone, anywhere.

I'm not some wet behind the ears idiot and it would bode better for you if you bore that in mind in future communications regarding my business. I don't take too kindly to individuals telling me, based on such very little experience directly themselves, that my own business model is so out of sync with reality, or that I could be very bad for potential clients personal business.

Good grief.

As stated, from a very experienced copywriter or professional in their business I can take it, someone who has fully walked the walk and talked the talk, from a fellow 'newbie' on the other hand, it's exceedingly, very highly annoying.

I don't want to set up a heated argument or discussion here, but I do take exception to your previous remarks on my business model and what felt like a slur on my own writing ability, when I take pride to give my customers and future clients, the very best service that I can.

As I stated before and I'll state it again for your benefit, everyone has to start out on their chosen course of action somewhere, if I were you, I wouldn't be stepping so far ahead of the game that I forgot to keep my feet firmly on the ground, and my head out of the clouds.

Wishing you a good weekend.

Mark

[Daniel Scott]

Mark,

The fact I've been writing for others for two months doesn't mean I've been writing for two months.

I believe that from day 1 I should offering a damn good service... and I worked hard to get the chops BEFORE I started offering my services. I was the same with music... and to be honest, it's probably not a great way to be, but it's the way I am and I've made peace with that.

The simple fact of the matter is that most cheap copywriters aren't good at what they do.

You seem to think I'm referring to you... I'm not. I've only seen one of your letters and, as I said, it was one of the best "low priced" letters I've seen.

I'm not sure why you think I'm slurring your writing ability... I gave you some tips in another thread, true, but I assumed you knew they were simply a few bits and pieces that might help your next letter get better. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm always asking people to give me pointers... so I apologize if I have offended you; it wasn't intentional.

What I AM saying is that the economic reality of the situation is that a cheap copywriter simply cannot do as good a job as a more expensive copywriter.

The simple fact is you NEED to do that research and market analysis... or else you have a piece of copy that just won't convert. I know this because years ago I used to do it all the time... as I said, I'm sharing my experience here.

A lot of people seem to misunderstand my position here, and it's probably my fault. There's a reason I am saying this... because I used to make these mistakes all the time!

I now realize WHY copywriters charge what they do, WHY you can't write a good letter in a few hours (unless you already know the market inside-out), and why cheap copy almost always bites you on the ass... BECAUSE I'VE BEEN THERE!

I have made those mistakes. I've tried to write copy for my own stuff without understanding the markets. I've paid $300 for copy and then been pissed off when it didn't convert.

This isn't about me dissing cheap copywriters, Mark... everyone starts somewhere... including me.

If you can write a good letter in 3 hours, or whatever, then go for it man... Hell, if you can write a letter that converts for $200 or whatever I will personally keep you tied up as many letters as you can write in the next 12 months or whatever.

You'll be far more skilled than pretty much any copywriter I know.

I expect that as you get more experience, you'll raise your rates... because you'll realize that writing non-stop will burn you out, and more importantly, you won't be able to take the time to write a killer letter purely for financial reasons.

Here's the thing, Mark... if you wanna believe that I'm an idiot and don't know what I'm talking about, that's cool. If you think I'm writing this to "look down my nose" at others, then you don't know me very well (understandably, since this is an internet forum).

You can think I'm sneering at others from atop my golden throne or whatever... But honestly, I charge sweet FA for a letter... so it doesn't make sense for me to look down on others for charging little.

All I am trying to get at is that charging (or paying) peanuts for a sales letter doesn't work out for anyone 99% of the time.

If you want to continue to hate me, that's fine. That's your prerogative, and it doesn't really affect me one way or the other... I'm not exactly gonna lose sleep over it.

But, for the record... I'm not that guy. I'm just trying to share what I've learned with this forum... because I'm really happy at the moment and I have this forum, and the people in it, to thank for it.

-Dan

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Fair do's Daniel, I see your point, although as exchanged via pm meassages, you irk me too, especially the inconsistency angle.

If you've only been copywriting for a few months, state that as a fact and don't state as you do on your website, that you are right up there with the 'greatest copywriting minds' of all time, making it appear that you have been at this for years and years, when in fact, this is not the case at all.

Of this inconsistency, it actually appears on your very own site and the impression one is left with from this is somewhat confusing, for one statement say's one thing, whilst another statement elsewhere (in a testimonial) actually say's something completely different.

You might want to change that my friend.

I do agree with you about copywriting burnout, I've had that this past few days, believe it or not.

Certainly, charging more, I can give a great deal more of my time to my clients with a much higher attention to detail than charging lower copywriting rates.

So, anyway, I'm glad we cleared the air on that one, I'll give you your due, one day, you'll be almost as good as me.

Vin is obviously teaching you well.

Have a good weekend and great success to you too.

Heads back to read more Schwartz.

Mark

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Most people don't understand how hard it is to write a letter.

Your probably right. I was almost going to do my own copy, but I can't bring myself to do it. Its not that I can't, its just that writing is not my thing and I don't enjoy it. I may give it a go again, but its not something I would do regularly.

I've sold high ticket items over the phone, done face to face sales, and have studied great copywriters and some of there courses. Selling isn't the hard part. I love selling. Its the actual writing process that I find tedious and time wasting.

I find it hard to write a lot of quality articles, copy, or any writing at all. Maybe its my ADD. I'll probably need an in-house writer at some point in the near the future and I have no problem training a great, reliable, writer, how to sell.

Thats why top copy guys deserve what they get paid. Sh*t, I can't even afford to hire my cousin and she's family, lol. She does offline copy mostly for book publishers.

And in the real world, most people can't even afford a low-mid level copywriter charging 1k or more. Atleast from what I've seen here at the WarriorForum. I think its good to have these "more affordable" writers, but the buyer must be extra, extra, extra, careful doing this.

[Paul McQuillan]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Paul,

I respect you greatly... from what I've seen you're a damn good writer and marketer

Just as I get back from the shed with with my RipHisAss chainsaw,
you post this.

Now I am all warm and fuzzy

Your rebuttal is accepted. I find that writing posts is a lot
like writing copy for a sales page. It helps if we give the reader very
little room to misinterpret our message.

I am impressed that you are up to $3k a letter (far cry from the WSO)

I am still waiting for that pm from Vin wanting to take me under his wing...

[Justin Mandel]

Case in point:

A couple of weeks ago someone a copywriter wanted me to review his salesletter - he said his client was really happy with it, so I was eagerly looking forward to reviewing it.

After going through it I see that the product is positioned completely wrong...the mark of an inexperienced copywriter, and hence conversions would've been lousy because people were seriously misled the way it was written.

So what it came down to was 2 things:

1) The copywriter had a lot of improvement that needs to be made
2) His "happy" client had no idea what he was reading

That hungry copywriter was salivating, holding onto my every sentence in my IM chat. After I told him what was wrong with it kept typing "What else?"

My answer was "nothing else" and I offered to review it for him for a fee, which he could not afford since he was paid only $200 to write the copy in the first place.

Every copywriter has to start somewhere, but here was someone who paid what he might of thought was good money someone who positioned himself as a "real deal professional" copywriter and in turn would've got badly burned with poor conversions once his launch took place

[Paul McQuillan]

I would also like to clarify and agree with what many are saying..

Writing a sales letter is VERY time consuming. Writing is the easy part, the
research is the bear.

I am currently working on a sales letter for a upstart a few schillings shy
of what I deserve. It will be the last.

Mentally it unmotivates and I need to force myself to continue. Pay
me $5k and I am a machine

[Raydal]

Phew .. a lot of fire in this thread!

Is there a difference between a cheap copywriter and a copywriter
with low fees?

Your fees should be determined by:

1. Your experience - the longer you have been working as a copywriter
the better you should get and the more you should charge. (Exception: some
talented writers can start ahead of the pack)

2. The market. What is the competition charging and what the market
can bear.

3. How broke you are. If you really need the work to pay the bills then
don't let anyone convince you otherwise. There's no use "faking it till
you make it here". Although it's not a great position to be in, run that
WSO and tell them you are looking for more testimonials for your site.

There really are no cheap copywriters. Just copywriters who charge
cheaply, and often for very good reasons.

-Ray Edwards

[Johnny12345]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

I charge $3 000 for a letter right now.

Daniel,

Instead of yet another "low-priced copy is bad" rant, I think a more interesting post would have been an explanation of how you went from charging $97 to $3,000 in only a couple months.

Johnny

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

unless you have basic copywriting skills you won't be able to tell if their writing is likely to convert or not.

This is something people struggle with in LOTS of industries.

As a software developer and as a project manager, I have seen a lot of people out there delivering crap work at low prices. But when you don't really know what those people do, it's hard to tell the difference between "$5,000 crap I don't understand" and "$150,000 crap I don't understand".

I have yet to find a good way to tell clients "you don't know squat about this, so just pay the invoice and trust me".

[Kevin Lam]

Originally Posted by Justin Mandel

Case in point:

A couple of weeks ago someone a copywriter wanted me to review his salesletter - he said his client was really happy with it, so I was eagerly looking forward to reviewing it.

After going through it I see that the product is positioned completely wrong...the mark of an inexperienced copywriter, and hence conversions would've been lousy because people were seriously misled the way it was written...(

That sounds oddly familiar. I pretty much came about the same situation not too long ago. Someone asked for a critique on the sales letter he wrote for his clients and the positioning was wrong. The headlines and sub-titles were really poor. Odd.

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

Daniel,

Instead of yet another "low-priced copy is bad" rant, I think a more interesting post would have been an explanation of how you went from charging $97 to $3,000 in only a couple months.

Johnny

Johnny,

When I ran that WSO... I was ****-scared that my letters wouldn't convert.

I have a few products of my own that convert well (although I still have a long way to go before I learn to send a decent amount of traffic to my pages)... but writing for others is a little different. I had a lot of "what ifs" go through my head... what if my writing wouldn't convert... what if I screwed up... etc etc.

Anyway, that's why I offered the guarantee I did (money-back). I knew it was open to abuse... but I figured it would show people I was serious about doing a good job despite no prior experience.

So I did 4 letters at $97 each... and I think each of those letters took me roughly 20 - 30 hours to write.

Can you say "less than minimum wage"? LOL.

Anyway, after I finished those ones I did a WSO for $500. I got a few people to take me up on that... did those letters... and then realized that getting clients via the WSO forum probably wasn't a good marketing angle.

After that, I put up my own website... and that's essentially how I got work now (combination of PPC and forum advertising... you'd be amazed how many clients you get from a sig file at the Warrior Forum!).

In regards to raising my rates, one thing that seriously helped me was hanging out at the Copywriter's Board (copywritingboard.com - run by Bruce Wedding, who I believe is a Warrior here too). I used to think $2 000 was big money for a letter... then you go over there and see that hardly any of them charge below $5 000.

It's a bit of a wake-up call, LOL.

And, of course, Vin took me on as a student... and you have no idea how much Vin has not only helped me improve my copywriting, but given me tips on how to position myself so that I am worthy of those higher fees... like anything it's all about positioning, but it doesn't stop with writing copy for your website... it's about how you relate to your clients and build the value of your services in other ways.

Pretty boring, really... Not exactly an exciting story.

I think one of the big things is that I saw my letters WERE converting and WERE getting results... clients were overjoyed with them... that really helps your confidence. And when you are confident, it's easier to get another job... for more money.

Plus, I could write a good letter before I started charging for my services... my first letters converted (well, at least the first letters I charged others for... the first letters I wrote for myself were horrible). Like most copywriters, I've gotten better over time... and the better you get, and the better track record you have, the higher fees you can command.

Bottom line is I charge that because I'm worth it... and I know it and my clients know it. Sure, occasionally I get someone who kind of chokes at my rates... but you get that in most business endeavors at some point.

I should mention, too, that Tim Castleman was the guy who initially (indirectly) got me started writing copy for other people... and then pushed me to raise my rates!

Kevin Lam also taught me a hell of a lot about the "graphical" aspects of copy like layout, white space, johnson boxes etc... The first couple of letters I did for others that was a major point he mentioned that I then went back and fixed.

I considered sending this via PM but thought this would be a good place to put it since the discussion kind of arose RE: my "origins", and I thought it would be a nice plug for Tim and Kev... who are both great guys and were a big help to me when I started out doing this kind of thing.

-Dan

[Kevin Lam]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Kevin Lam also taught me a hell of a lot about the "graphical" aspects of copy like layout, white space, johnson boxes etc... The first couple of letters I did for others that was a major point he mentioned that I then went back and fixed.

I considered sending this via PM but thought this would be a good place to put it since the discussion kind of arose RE: my "origins", and I thought it would be a nice plug for Tim and Kev... who are both great guys and were a big help to me when I started out doing this kind of thing.

-Dan

Wonderful story, Dan. Thank you for sharing that with everyone and hopefully people can learn a lot from this. And yes, thank you for the plug, lol. Mind if I use that, lol.

Anyway, I love how you've grown as a person and as a copywriter. I'm glad Vin was able to take you under his wing and showed you the path. You've really done well for yourself and I'm proud to have you as a friend.

I really should get over to the copywriting forum some time... busy with my own things, but I will certainly make time for it soon.

[dageniusmarketer]

Alot of great and powerful minds in here talking about the often undervalued skill of copywriting. Ive learned alot about pricing strategy watching you guys go back and forth.

Im hoping in good time that I can eventually get on the level of some of you greats and charge that arm and leg that makes my clients many, many times over what i charged them, where they can buy that arm and leg back with no sweat.

[Zeus66]

Would some of you pros be kind enough to recommend a good copywriting course or book?

Thanks,
John