Freelancer.com

Go Back   Warrior Forum - The #1 Internet Marketing Forum & Marketplace > The Warrior Forum > Copywriting
Register Blogs Social Groups Advertise with usHelp Desk

Reply
LinkBack Thread Tools
Unread 10th January 2013, 04:16 AM   #1
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

I wrote an article after an email exchange with Drayton Bird (with his permission, of course).

He insists there's nothing to NLP persuasion in copywriting. I, and a few others disagree.

There's a bit of a discussion going on. Drayton is joined by Chris Marlow, the copywriter's coach and NLP guru Clive Cable.

Here's the post in its entirety:
“NLP is utter hogwash” – Drayton Bird

“There’s nothing new in NLP. But what gives it the power is the way things were combined together into a system.” – Wyatt Woodsmall
In an email discussion with Drayton Bird, he told me, clearly, what he thinks of NLP.

He also added a link to a page on Wikipedia that labels NLP as a “discredited approach to communication, personal development, and psychotherapy” (link below).

Personally, I prefer to do a bit more research than one page on the internet. Even if it links to a million scientific references. In fact, especially if it’s to scientific references.

And, as Wyatt Woodsmall said, “There’s nothing new in NLP. But what gives it the power is the way things were combined together into a system.”

How can anyone discredit something that has always existed?

I could go through control after control in advertising and highlight NLP patterns. They’re there. You just have to know what to look for.

It’s no different to using persuasive words and sentences in copywriting.

(A control is an advert that makes more money than any other for a particular product. When a new ad. makes more money than the control, that new ad. becomes the control.)

So here’s my reply to Drayton:
“NLP is hogwash if you listen to some people. You know the ones who try to make a quick buck by fooling people.

In truth- particularly for the NLP persuasion techniques – it’s just another name for the stuff we write in copy.

They just go a bit further with patterns. A bit like sleight of hand in street magic.

The more I look into it, the more I realise how we can use it in copywriting.

As far as the ‘discredited approach’ goes, I think that refers more to Bandler and Grinder.

Those who know them also know they are not the most ethical of people.

I first ventured into NLP in the late 1980s, but got out because of Bandler. I didn’t like what he did.

In fact, the guy they learned from, Milton Erickson, called them Bandit and Swindler.

It’s a shame when one or two people can discredit an entire industry.”
Unfortunately, that made no difference to Drayton.

What can you do, huh?

Here’s my take on NLP…

It’s not about the tool. It’s about whose hand the tool is in.

As with all tools, it’s the user that makes the difference.

None of that will make any difference to Drayton, however. It can take more than an email to persuade someone to change his views.

What I will say is this: it’s not about whether or not he believes NLP is a valid practice. It’s about whether or not it makes a difference to what we believe and how we use it.

Still, I’d like to know what others say on the subject. Especially if you think you can prove there is truth to NLP.

Is NLP Utter Hogwash? | Persuade With NLP
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 05:04 AM   #2
Words Rule the World
War Room Member
 
Pusateri's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2010
Location: South Texas Coast
Posts: 585
Thanks: 707
Thanked 668 Times in 300 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

I still don't know what NLP is. You ask ten different people you get ten different answers.

Seems everything is borrowed from some other discipline. Are there any NLP inventions or discoveries?

What you call NLP patterns, for instance. How do they differ from the patterns of classical rhetoric: isocolon, anadiplosis, et al?
Pusateri is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 05:34 AM   #3
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post
I still don't know what NLP is. You ask ten different people you get ten different answers.

Seems everything is borrowed from some other discipline. Are there any NLP inventions or discoveries?

What you call NLP patterns, for instance. How do they differ from the patterns of classical rhetoric: isocolon, anadiplosis, et al?
The way I learn things is not by asking others. I learn by studying.

Like copywriting, if you ask for opinions, you will get opinions.

And not all those opinions will be informed.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 06:42 AM   #4
Banned
War Room Member
 
Join Date: 2011
Posts: 2,776
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 2,849
Thanked 2,534 Times in 1,269 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post

Still, I’d like to know what others say on the subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post

The way I learn things is not by asking others. I learn by studying.

Like copywriting, if you ask for opinions, you will get opinions.

And not all those opinions will be informed.
Pardon me asking the obvious question then...

What are you asking for opinions on this topic for?


Mark Andrews
Mark Andrews is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 06:45 AM   #5
HyperActive Warrior
 
The Marketeer's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2011
Posts: 390
Thanks: 674
Thanked 136 Times in 114 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

There seems to be a contradiction in the following quote

Quote:
There’s nothing new in NLP. But what gives it the power is the way things were combined together into a system.” – Wyatt Woodsmall
Can anyone spot it?

I agree with what you say here:

Quote:
Here’s my take on NLP…

It’s not about the tool. It’s about whose hand the tool is in.

As with all tools, it’s the user that makes the difference.
However with NLP and hypnosis, there are some elements which I'm not entirely comfortable with as they overlap with some practices used in the dark side. Not sure if you've noticed that yet.
The Marketeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 06:52 AM   #6
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post
Pardon me asking the obvious question then...

What are you asking for opinions on this topic for?


Mark Andrews
Those are not opinions. They're questions about what NLP is and what patterns are.

Read it again.

And I wasn't having a go at him. Just advising some ways to learn.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 06:53 AM   #7
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Marketeer View Post
There seems to be a contradiction in the following quote

Can anyone spot it?

I agree with what you say here:

However with NLP and hypnosis, there are some elements which I'm not entirely comfortable with as they overlap with some practices used in the dark side. Not sure if you've noticed that yet.
I agree.

But you can discriminate and keep away from them.

It's why I refuse to even listen to some of the dark side stuff.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 07:01 AM   #8
HyperActive Warrior
War Room Member
 
charidemos's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2011
Posts: 104
Thanks: 3
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

What makes me skeptical about NLP is that it's creator, Richard Bandler, is so overweight. I mean if the stuff he teaches work, why not apply them on his physical health? Then I thought he could be sick but he mentioned in an interview that he does not think he is fat. Draw your own conclusion from that.
charidemos is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 07:22 AM   #9
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by charidemos View Post
What makes me skeptical about NLP is that it's creator, Richard Bandler, is so overweight. I mean if the stuff he teaches work, why not apply them on his physical health? Then I thought he could be sick but he mentioned in an interview that he does not think he is fat. Draw your own conclusion from that.


Check out what I said about him and Grinder in the top post.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 07:52 AM   #10
HyperActive Warrior
 
The Marketeer's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2011
Posts: 390
Thanks: 674
Thanked 136 Times in 114 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post
I agree.

But you can discriminate and keep away from them.

It's why I refuse to even listen to some of the dark side stuff.
Yeah.

I think I'll have to consciously apply some of those cognitive biases to the dark side of NLP.
The Marketeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 08:12 AM   #11
HyperActive Warrior
War Room Member
 
OutOfThisWord's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2010
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 269
Thanks: 61
Thanked 94 Times in 78 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

From my research in writing numerous projects in the 'wellness' niche, NLP seems to have some value in therapeutic settings.

In copywriting, it seems like it's mostly used to separate newbees from their money...

...although a well constructed sales argument can bring a reader to a state they desie, by connecting their wish with the product/offer.
OutOfThisWord is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 08:56 AM   #12
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutOfThisWord View Post
In copywriting, it seems like it's mostly used to separate newbees from their money...
Any well constructed sales copy can do the same. It doesn't NLP by name.

Persuasion is persuasion regardless of what you call.

You can use it ethically or unethically. It's up to you.

And from what I've seen, NLP is not best suited to therapy.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 09:08 AM   #13
Words Rule the World
War Room Member
 
Pusateri's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2010
Location: South Texas Coast
Posts: 585
Thanks: 707
Thanked 668 Times in 300 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post
The way I learn things is not by asking others. I learn by studying.

Like copywriting, if you ask for opinions, you will get opinions.

And not all those opinions will be informed.
I didn' ask for an opinion. I asked someone who writes for a site called persuadewithnlp two questions:

Are there any NLP inventions or discoveries?

and

How do NLP patterns differ from the patterns of classical rhetoric?

Guess he can't answer them. Is there anyone here who can?
Pusateri is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 09:23 AM   #14
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post
I didn' ask for an opinion. I asked someone who writes for a site called persuadewithnlp two questions:

Are there any NLP inventions or discoveries?

and

How do NLP patterns differ from the patterns of classical rhetoric?

Guess he can't answer them. Is there anyone here who can?
In that case, if you go to the site, there's a guy, Clive Cable, who can answer that question for you. Just ask in the comments.

And I didn't mean you asked for an opinion here. I meant if you asked ten people, like you said, you'd get ten opinions.

Because if you get ten different answers then they are opinions. NLP is a structured science. So you shouldn't get ten different answers if they know what they're talking about.

Quote:
You ask ten different people you get ten different answers.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 11:40 AM   #15
HyperActive Warrior
 
The Marketeer's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2011
Posts: 390
Thanks: 674
Thanked 136 Times in 114 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

From reading the comments on your article it seems that classic copywriting fans feel that NLP can never replace the classic principles of copywriting.

Now I wonder what cognitive bias that falls under?

Of course NLP can never replace classic copywriting principles because it's just another framework from which to look at persuasion and communication but...

It can add value to classic copywriting principles.

This is what some copywriters are saying (in the comments to the article) and what one of the top dogs in copywriting seems to be doing.

There seems to be this feeling that it's either this or that.

Why can we not have the best of both worlds?

A sort of a hybrid if you like.

Can we not have our cake and eat it too?
The Marketeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 12:38 PM   #16
Look
 
Studio13's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2011
Posts: 257
Thanks: 35
Thanked 97 Times in 63 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Marketeer View Post

Of course NLP can never replace classic copywriting principles because it's just another framework from which to look at persuasion and communication but...

I think this statement summarizes my opinion on the matter fully. Well said.
Studio13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 12:46 PM   #17
Sales brain
War Room Member
 
Loren Woirhaye's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Whittier, California
Posts: 4,689
Blog Entries: 15
Thanks: 124
Thanked 1,006 Times in 708 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

In the NLP literature there is a vocabulary
which I find useful in understanding some
interesting connections between language
and behavior.

I find Satyr categories useful for understanding
some things about people.

In terms of whether the "modeling" systems
and rapid therapeutic systems work, I won't
speculate.

Whether any of the concepts in NLP can be
proven or not is not relevant to me. I've still
learned some useful things from reading
NLP material.

I wouldn't call it utter hogwash at all... but
I'm not running around spending thousands
of dollars on seminars or coaching so, financially
speaking, I haven't invested enough to have
any complaints about the value I got.

Loren Woirhaye is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 02:29 PM   #18
Copywriter
 
Shazadi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2012
Posts: 136
Thanks: 36
Thanked 72 Times in 51 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

The majority of the copywriters I've seen that trumpet their use of NLP are proven con artists and hacks. I understand that some well meaning types may explore it and discover a few useful tips (Such as yourself?), but as others have said, I really don't see it preaching anything new that can't be learned through studying sales techniques and human psychology. Beyond that, it projects an inflated sense of importance that says you can "hypnotize" a reader and/or "force" them to buy something, which one simply cannot do. It's that type of pseudoscience that gives it a bad name, and it's even worse that there are no NLP studies which can verify its efficacy.

It reminds me of copywriting's own little PUA community. Maybe there were once a few nuggets of truth within the teachings, but since its inception they've primarily been used by scuzzy, manipulative types that have simply re-branded classic teachings for their own gain.
Shazadi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 04:25 PM   #19
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraKryza View Post
The majority of the copywriters I've seen that trumpet their use of NLP are proven con artists and hacks. I understand that some well meaning types may explore it and discover a few useful tips (Such as yourself?), but as others have said, I really don't see it preaching anything new that can't be learned through studying sales techniques and human psychology. Beyond that, it projects an inflated sense of importance that says you can "hypnotize" a reader and/or "force" them to buy something, which one simply cannot do. It's that type of pseudoscience that gives it a bad name, and it's even worse that there are no NLP studies which can verify its efficacy.

It reminds me of copywriting's own little PUA community. Maybe there were once a few nuggets of truth within the teachings, but since its inception they've primarily been used by scuzzy, manipulative types that have simply re-branded classic teachings for their own gain.
Got any examples of these proven con artists and hacks?

The thing to remember is there's nothing magic about NLP.

I find so many of the patterns in NLP already being used by the top copywriters.

They may not call it NLP. And, in fact, the term NLP came along much later.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 05:32 PM   #20
Advanced Warrior
War Room Member
 
Join Date: 2002
Location: The mind of a prospect
Posts: 502
Thanks: 19
Thanked 120 Times in 83 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Marketeer View Post
There seems to be a contradiction in the following quote

There’s nothing new in NLP. But what gives it the power is the way things were combined together into a system.” – Wyatt Woodsmall

Can anyone spot it?
Maybe what he's saying is NLP is a bit like an omelet.

What?

Yup. You've got eggs, ham, cheese and chives or whatever. The ingredients are nothing new.

IF you take the eggs and cook them first, take them out of the pan, then cook the ham then add the cheese and the chives, what have you got? Fried eggs, ham and melted cheese with chives.

BUT if you throw the ham in the pan first, toss it around for 60 seconds, then pour on eggs that have been lightly whisked, add your cheese and chives before the egg cooks, you get a nice ham and cheese omelet.

Same stuff, different outcome.

Some people don't care for NLP. I get it. NLP is not as straightforward as some promoters make it out to be.

Me? I don't care if my persuasion and influence methodologies/frameworks are called NLP, copywriting, sales, or Jack's Magic Bean Method. What I care about are bottom line results.

I have gotten some fairly useful distinctions out of the material. Enough to spend quite a bit of time looking at its different parts under the hood.

Yeah... what started out as being curiosity about "magic" language patterns that could "make people buy", got deeper into how people made decisions, understanding how language reflected their "map of the world", how people organized specific information in their heads and how to use that to help them got more of what they really wanted.

For me, NLP is a little like an airplane. Not everyone understands how an airplane works. That doesn't mean it doesn't work. Some people are scared to death of riding in one - it just plain freaks them out. Others aren't. Some are happy to ride along as a passenger whether it's first class or the cattle class. That's enough excitement, value for them. And then there are those that want to... and do master flying an airplane... even to the extent you can do loops and tricks that amaze and defy belief. Me? I like to be engineer and pilot. Top gun baby!!!

Why settle for other people's destinations and timetables when you can set your own?

It's simple really.

But like I said, NLP is not as straightforward as some claim on the packet. It's not "1-2-3... magic word pattern, hey presto... give me your wallet!" It's a little cerebral at times. Maybe that's why it appeals to me. I have a tendency to the analytical. I like numbers. I like looking for patterns and formulas. Most of all, I like understanding why things work the way they do and using that to maximum effect. (I like it when you can make 1+1 = 11 not 2... which you can if you know what you are doing... )

Fact is not everyone agrees and I'm quite certain it will never happen. Then again... is there really much on the planet that there is universal agreement with?

I could go on. But why? I really don't care if another copywriter uses NLP or not. I'm not selling anything here and it's not even to my advantage if they figure it out.

At the end of the day, the best thing you can do is what works for you since it's you that you have to answer to.


PS. I read Drayton's comments to the blog and it seems his issue is with the label of whether NLP is a science or not, not as to its efficacy.

Scary good...
CopyMonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 05:38 PM   #21
Words Rule the World
War Room Member
 
Pusateri's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2010
Location: South Texas Coast
Posts: 585
Thanks: 707
Thanked 668 Times in 300 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post

I find so many of the patterns in NLP already being used by the top copywriters.

They may not call it NLP. And, in fact, the term NLP came along much later.
If NLP is just a hodge-podge of things invented elsewhere, why bother with the NLP umbrella?

If you want to understand the psychology of persuasion, why not study the psychology of persuasion?

If you want to study the patterns in persuasive writing, why not study classical rhetoric?

What does NLP bring to the table that I can't get elsewhere and with less baggage?

I've gone past wondering if NLP is hogwash to wondering if it actually exists.
Pusateri is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 05:52 PM   #22
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post
If NLP is just a hodge-podge of things invented elsewhere, why bother with the NLP umbrella?

If you want to understand the psychology of persuasion, why not study the psychology of persuasion?

If you want to study the patterns in persuasive writing, why not study classical rhetoric?

What does NLP bring to the table that I can't get elsewhere and with less baggage?

I've gone past wondering if NLP is hogwash to wondering if it actually exists.
Maybe getting into semantics here, but weren't all the terms being used now non-existent at one time or another?

It's how it's all put together that makes the difference.

Personally, I think NLP will gain a bigger audience within the next few years among copywriters.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 06:01 PM   #23
Advanced Warrior
 
Join Date: 2011
Posts: 604
Thanks: 18
Thanked 192 Times in 165 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Just use the persuasive copywriting techniques that work for you.

I use some NLP or hypnotic writing techniques in my copy.

But the label doesn't matter.
ThomasOMalley is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 06:51 PM   #24
The On-Call Copywriter
War Room Member
 
Alex Cohen's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,071
Thanks: 216
Thanked 1,310 Times in 802 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
I could go through control after control in advertising and highlight NLP patterns. They’re there. You just have to know what to look for.
Which proves nothing.

1. Show me a NLP technique that copywriters haven't already been using for years (albeit under a different name).

2. If there is one, show me via split test that it increased response in sales copy.

That would be proof.

Alex
Alex Cohen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 07:53 PM   #25
The Cake Is A Lie
War Room Member
 
Daniel Scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2004
Location: Mackay, QLD, Australia
Posts: 2,402
Thanks: 301
Thanked 935 Times in 489 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post
If NLP is just a hodge-podge of things invented elsewhere, why bother with the NLP umbrella?
I'd bet you already know this one, Puserati...

But it's to help it sell. It makes it sound new and exciting, which is something everyone wants.

NLP copywriters do the same thing, for the most part. "I know secret ninja NLP techniques that FORCE a prospect to open their wallet and spend money..." yada yada.

Got nothing really against that... part of selling is making things sound exciting and different, even when they're not.

But most of the NLP techniques I've heard about are just re-branded copy techniques we've been using for ages.

I remember a couple of years ago someone said to me, "Wow... you know a lot about NLP in copy!" from reading some of my stuff.

I had no idea. I hadn't even heard of using NLP in copy. I'd heard of NLP, but knew very little about it, other than that it was a self development thing linked with positive affirmation etc.

So... for my money, they're just the same shit we've been using for years in a new skin.

-Daniel

Need profit-pulling copy for your business? Then click here to claim your FREE marketing strategy session...

This Week's Article: How To Develop A Killer Marketing Angle (Even When You've Got Nothing To Work With)
Daniel Scott is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 08:34 PM   #26
Customer Service Maniac
War Room Member
 
johndetlefs's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 295
Thanks: 136
Thanked 112 Times in 83 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Cialdini's works are far more useful than NLP for my money.

There isn't or doesn't seem to be a lot of science around NLP, just a lot of scientific names.

In my industry (corporate training) you'd be amazed at how many trainers swear by pointing down when something is bad, and pointing up when something is good to "anchor" the point.

Really though, the best trainers that i've ever met and hired are the ones that can tell a great story and keep a crowd entertained while they learn.

If you substitute learn for "buy" that sounds a fair bit like the best copywriters, no?

Milton Erickson had some really interesting ideas around hypnosis for psychotherapy, and from what I've read, Grinder and co used a lot of what they thought Erickson was doing as a basis for their methodology.

johndetlefs is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 08:58 PM   #27
Advanced Warrior
War Room Member
 
Join Date: 2002
Location: The mind of a prospect
Posts: 502
Thanks: 19
Thanked 120 Times in 83 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

I think what people are forgetting is at it's heart, NLP is about modeling.

No, not the Gisele kind. I mean the process of looking at stuff that works, unraveling the process of it all and putting it all together in a way that others can use to get the same result.

It was initially promoted in therapy for helping people overcome stuff like phobias and psychological challenges.

Then some guy called Tony Robbins took it mainstream and positioned it as a personal development/success tool.

The persuasion/influence side of things is mostly derivative of Milton Erickson's work as one of the best hypnotists that ever lived. That is mixed with learnings from Alfred Korzybski and Virginia Satir and more.

So if you're asking is NLP new?

Well, not really. It's just a "technology" or framework that's been assembled to copy and replicate models of excellence and models of desired behaviour.

So what you're getting with persuasion when it comes to NLP is certain, specific models and distinctions of persuasive language that have been effective in various contexts.

That's why you get copywriters using what others describe as NLP without knowing they are. Halbert didn't know a thing about NLP. Yet, I see numerous examples of NLP "patterns" in his copy.

Parts of Eugene Schwartz' Breakthrough Advertising has parallels in NLP.

When people suggest reading and studying and even writing out good sales letters, what are they really saying? You should "model" these exemplars ie. a similar process that the NLP framework is aimed at.

Do you keep and study swipe files? What are you doing? If you're doing it right, you're modeling language and structures that influence.

In my mind, NLP is a tool. You can use it or not. Just like you can eat with your hands or with a fork. It's your choice. NLP is not perfect, it won't make you a cup of coffee - although it can help you want to make a cup of coffee (for me ).

If you find yourself resistant to the idea of NLP, it's simple... go forth and find what works for you. Really.

Time to go. I'm waiting for a cup of coffee...

Scary good...
CopyMonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 11:09 PM   #28
Words Rule the World
War Room Member
 
Pusateri's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2010
Location: South Texas Coast
Posts: 585
Thanks: 707
Thanked 668 Times in 300 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CopyMonster View Post
I think what people are forgetting is at it's heart, NLP is about modeling.

No, not the Gisele kind. I mean the process of looking at stuff that works, unraveling the process of it all and putting it all together in a way that others can use to get the same result.
Now NLP claims reverse engineering as it's territory?

NLP is imperialist!

What isn't NLP at this point?

I feed my cat when she stands at her bowl. Ah...feline NLP.

This year's apple crop is up 20%. Thanks NLP!

Little old lady got mutilated late last night. NLP practitioners again.
Pusateri is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 11:15 PM   #29
Customer Service Maniac
War Room Member
 
johndetlefs's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 295
Thanks: 136
Thanked 112 Times in 83 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post
I feed my cat when she stands at her bowl. Ah...feline NLP.
Got me.

An actual laugh out loud.

Good work sir.

johndetlefs is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10th January 2013, 11:22 PM   #30
Words Rule the World
War Room Member
 
Pusateri's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2010
Location: South Texas Coast
Posts: 585
Thanks: 707
Thanked 668 Times in 300 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndetlefs View Post
Got me.

An actual laugh out loud.

Good work sir.
Of course you did. I was using NLP.
Pusateri is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 12:12 AM   #31
The Cake Is A Lie
War Room Member
 
Daniel Scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2004
Location: Mackay, QLD, Australia
Posts: 2,402
Thanks: 301
Thanked 935 Times in 489 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post
Now NLP claims reverse engineering as it's territory?

NLP is imperialist!

What isn't NLP at this point?

I feed my cat when she stands at her bowl. Ah...feline NLP.

This year's apple crop is up 20%. Thanks NLP!

Little old lady got mutilated late last night. NLP practitioners again.
I like you.

-Daniel

Need profit-pulling copy for your business? Then click here to claim your FREE marketing strategy session...

This Week's Article: How To Develop A Killer Marketing Angle (Even When You've Got Nothing To Work With)
Daniel Scott is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 12:49 AM   #32
Mal Lambe
War Room Member
 
The Copy Nazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2009
Location: Australian living in Paris
Posts: 3,384
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 1,068
Thanked 2,578 Times in 1,182 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Great headline from Mister Pusateri -

This year's apple crop is up 20%. Thanks NLP!



The Copy Nazi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 04:08 AM   #33
Advanced Warrior
War Room Member
 
Join Date: 2002
Location: The mind of a prospect
Posts: 502
Thanks: 19
Thanked 120 Times in 83 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post
Now NLP claims reverse engineering as it's territory?
Sure, if that's how you like to see it. And maybe, just maybe, instead of practicing your stand-up routine, you could do some actual reading so you know what you're commenting about. But be warned, if you actually choose do that now, you might actually learn something of value... Of course, that's not as funny. It's not quick. It requires effort and thinking. And you have to be open to stepping outside of your comfort zone. And, gulp, it may even mean actual personal growth. Oh no!!!

Quote:
What isn't NLP at this point?
Ahhhh.... finally... you get it Mr. P!!! NLP IS EVERYTHING... and EVERYTHING IS NLP! Accept this and you will be one with everything...

...and before you become all upset and bajiggity about those words rolling around in your head over and over... and... over again... like some cheap, too-bright neon sign... flashing on... off.. on... off... to be 100% clear, I AM kidding.

Seriously, don't feel you need to keep thinking about those 3 words locked deep, deep, really deep down inside your skull, picturing them incessantly, every day, non-stop, like some epic 3-D movie that never stops playing in the front of your mind... when you wake up in the morning, when you work during the day, when you sleep at night. As you breathe in. As you breathe out. After all, it's just a joke. Really. No need to keep thinking about them rolling around your brain day after day... after day... and as you read these words, the stranger they seem, the more you realize it just makes sense, more and more, even more.

And of course, I'm just kidding. Aren't I?

Scary good...
CopyMonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 08:15 AM   #34
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post
Which proves nothing.

1. Show me a NLP technique that copywriters haven't already been using for years (albeit under a different name).

2. If there is one, show me via split test that it increased response in sales copy.

That would be proof.

Alex
Isn't that what I've been saying?

All you've done is confirm that.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 11:03 AM   #35
Sales brain
War Room Member
 
Loren Woirhaye's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Whittier, California
Posts: 4,689
Blog Entries: 15
Thanks: 124
Thanked 1,006 Times in 708 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Many NLP language patterns are dialectic in nature -
to function two parties must be having a conversation.

In copywriting it takes a pretty big ego to imagine
you (the writer) can perfectly anticipate every
objection and address it in the language style
the prospect requires. In belly-to-belly sales
the prospect is an observable creature and many
so-called NLP techniques have clearer applications
when the sale is happening face-to-face.

One technique which is pretty cool is nested
loops. A lot of fiction writers use them as well
to create page-turners.

Of course NLP people did not invent nested
loops, they just advocate the use of nested
loop storytelling as a way to relax a person
enough to be receptive to a message which
otherwise might be rejected out of hand.

Loren Woirhaye is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 12:08 PM   #36
Godfather of Curation
War Room Member
 
Harlan's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2004
Location: Boca Raton,FL , USA.
Posts: 1,293
Blog Entries: 10
Thanks: 306
Thanked 920 Times in 314 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

There's NLP in copy?

I wish someone told me.

Darn it.

Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
http://overnight-copy.com
Get Fit In Four Minuteshttp://just4minutes.com
Learn how to build a Super Site Without SEO http://supersiteformula.com
Harlan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 02:29 PM   #37
The On-Call Copywriter
War Room Member
 
Alex Cohen's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,071
Thanks: 216
Thanked 1,310 Times in 802 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post
Isn't that what I've been saying?

All you've done is confirm that.
If you say so. Clarity is not your strong suit.

Alex
Alex Cohen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 03:19 PM   #38
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post
If you say so. Clarity is not your strong suit.

Alex
Really?

Have you even bothered to read all of my posts?

I usually gather the evidence before making judgement.

You should try it.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 03:54 PM   #39
Raider Of The Lost Fart
War Room Member
 
colmodwyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 1,667
Thanks: 53
Thanked 317 Times in 144 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

From my experience...

1) All the "NLP strategies" I've heard of are old repackaged/rebranded sales/copy tricks (full disclosure I've never actually read an NLP book/course)

2) Folk who purport to be NLP copywriters are douches

Colm
colmodwyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 04:22 PM   #40
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colmodwyer View Post
From my experience...

1) All the "NLP strategies" I've heard of are old repackaged/rebranded sales/copy tricks (full disclosure I've never actually read an NLP book/course)

2) Folk who purport to be NLP copywriters are douches

Colm
You make a valid point. Especially in the brackets, because that's exactly how I felt for a long time.

Even though I was exposed to NLP about 20 odd years ago, I dismissed it because of people like Richard Bandler.

It's only recently that I went back into after reading some threads on linkedin started by Chris Marlow.

Then a guy call Clive Cable came on board, as well as a few others, and the discussion that ensued convinced both me and Chris of the value of NLP.

So much so that I and Clive have started a direct marketing agency together. He's the NLP specialist and I'm the copywriter.

Together we're doing and getting a lot more done and doing it better.

I never dismiss anything without investigating it properly.

If I can find one thing that improves my copywriting, I'll use it.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 04:39 PM   #41
HyperActive Warrior
 
The Marketeer's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2011
Posts: 390
Thanks: 674
Thanked 136 Times in 114 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Maybe some of you have mis-understood what Rezbi was trying to say in his OP.

Here's what I understood from his words:

"NLP isn't utter hogwash.

Yes, there are some elements which he wouldn't touch due to the reputation of certain characters.

However he sees it as a tool and there's some good in it worth using to enhance his copywriting.

At no point has he stated that NLP is going to replace the classic principles of copywriting."

-----

In copywriting you have different formulas/ different perspectives.

Each expert has their own formula that works for them.

In addition to that they borrow ideas from disciplines sometimes not directly related to copywriting.

NLP is a another framework within which to understand persuasion.

So I guess what he's saying is, why dismiss something completely when there is some benefit in it that can be used to enhance copywriting.

Please also note that he's not the first to say it.

There are other established copywriters that have also found NLP to have some benefit in it.

P.S. Different horses for different courses.
The Marketeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 05:24 PM   #42
Banned
War Room Member
 
Join Date: 2011
Posts: 2,776
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 2,849
Thanked 2,534 Times in 1,269 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Is NLP utter hogwash?

Rick Duris provides a good few extra insights on the subject of NLP here...

http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...esletters.html

If NLP is 'hogwash', why are one or two of the best copywriters using NLP?


Mark Andrews
Mark Andrews is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 05:35 PM   #43
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlan View Post
There's NLP in copy?

I wish someone told me.

Darn it.
Not you again.

Can't you think of something else to trash?

Leave NLP alone.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 05:41 PM   #44
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post
Is NLP utter hogwash?

Rick Duris provides a good few extra insights on the subject of NLP here...

http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...esletters.html

If NLP is 'hogwash', why are one or two of the best copywriters using NLP?

Mark Andrews
That is a fantastic thread.

If Rick Duris is okay with it, I'm going to compile all his posts from it and create a pdf of it for my own use.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11th January 2013, 07:56 PM   #45
CopyRanger.com
War Room Member
 
RickDuris's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2009
Location: Laguna Beach, CA
Posts: 1,943
Thanks: 1,094
Thanked 2,785 Times in 1,024 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post
That is a fantastic thread.

If Rick Duris is okay with it, I'm going to compile all his posts from it and create a pdf of it for my own use.
Feel free, Rezbi. Good luck with your endeavor.

- Rick Duris

RickDuris is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 12th January 2013, 05:57 PM   #46
Godfather of Curation
War Room Member
 
Harlan's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2004
Location: Boca Raton,FL , USA.
Posts: 1,293
Blog Entries: 10
Thanks: 306
Thanked 920 Times in 314 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

I love watching these crash and burn threads.

This is where a person can proudly say, "I've never read a single book on NLP but dammit, I know what I'm talking about."

There is not a single A list copywriter that I know of - with one exception - who has not studied NLP.

"The greatest living copywriter" - who has trademarked his name - bought every single NLP product he could find.

A list copywriters who write for Boardroom, Agora, Phillips, and many more study NLP language patterns.

One of the top copywriters in the world writes his copy and then goes back to it to load it up with NLP patterns.

It's true. If you know nothing about NLP, you won't find anything in NLP that's not found in copy.

And don't get me started on people who have no clue about NLP and try to use it (badly) in a sales letter.

But if you haven't studied NLP, and you aren't familiar in depth with the transformational grammar structures at the heart of the language models, do yourself a favor.

Stop babbling.

The one copywriter who did not study NLP was Gary Halbert. He was irritated when people claimed he used NLP in his copy. I can't find the exchange of emails where someone tried to get Gary to "admit" he used "NLP" and Gary denied it. I doubt the WF would allow the language Gary used to be posted. He was not a fan.

Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
http://overnight-copy.com
Get Fit In Four Minuteshttp://just4minutes.com
Learn how to build a Super Site Without SEO http://supersiteformula.com
Harlan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12th January 2013, 06:23 PM   #47
Godfather of Curation
War Room Member
 
Harlan's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2004
Location: Boca Raton,FL , USA.
Posts: 1,293
Blog Entries: 10
Thanks: 306
Thanked 920 Times in 314 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post
Kindly list a few of these transformational grammar structures.
Kindly do your homework.

Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
http://overnight-copy.com
Get Fit In Four Minuteshttp://just4minutes.com
Learn how to build a Super Site Without SEO http://supersiteformula.com
Harlan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12th January 2013, 07:42 PM   #48
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post
I've done my homework, Harlan. I suspect that you have not.
You strength, as always, is that it's easy to deny and denigrate something without proof than it is to prove something without showing proof.

You're always expecting someone else to do your homework for you.

Of course, it's easy to say you've done the homework.

Let's see your proof. What have you studied of NLP?

Come on, as you say, let's see a list.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12th January 2013, 09:49 PM   #49
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,986
Thanks: 391
Thanked 404 Times in 305 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post
No, I'm expecting someone to actually back up what they say with an example instead of a dodge.

I know that's asking a lot.

In fact, it would be downright miraculous around here.
And I'm just asking you to back up your claim that you've done your homework.

From past evidence, that would be a miracle, too.
Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12th January 2013, 11:47 PM   #50
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
ewenmack's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 5,064
Thanks: 2,383
Thanked 4,259 Times in 1,959 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

John Carlton says NLP is way down the list of importance for must have elements...John mentions it here...John Carlton Internet Marketing Interview (Number 2) -**Internet Business Blog By James Schramko

Gary Bencivenga doesn't mention it in his persuasion equation.

Best,
Ewen

WARNING: Don't Pay For Your Marketing Campaign Until You Read This Urgent Update
"In my opinion, (and apparently I'm not alone) this is the most valuable offer
there has ever been on the warrior forum.Take him up on it.
"
Ethan F.
"Ewen is one guy I'd trust with my life savings."
Laurence Henry.
/"You are nothing but a &^$&#**# genius." Charles Huber
ewenmack is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

  Warrior Forum - The #1 Internet Marketing Forum & Marketplace > The Warrior Forum > Copywriting

Bookmarks

Tags
hogwash, nlp, utter

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:16 AM.