Let's Screw Some Newbies Who Don't Know Any Better!

This post may be controversial. Maybe I shouldn't even put this out there, but for what it's worth maybe it will help at least a few people.

Let me begin by saying I make my living online. I'm not a bitter newbie and I have no issue with smart marketers who hire help to produce their infrastructure.

But the fact is selling "expert advice" that was written by someone who knows NOTHING about the subject matter is a CRAP tactic.

Here's the deal: I know for a fact that many popular marketing products sold to home business people are fraudulent in nature.

How do I know? I know the ghostwriters who produce these items for the marketers who then sell them and here's the thing...

Many of the writers I know personally who have written some of the recent and major products in the IM field have never made a dollar with Internet marketing.

Ok it's safe to say these folks use the Web to sell their writing. And I'm not taking away from them on this but...

I know a popular PPC "guru" who hires a friend of mine to write ALL of his e-books and courses. My friend knows squat about PPC, having never used it before and he says his client provides NOTHING in the way of material or research. The result is...

Someone who knows nothing and has no experience with PPC is writing books and courses that WITHOUT BEING CHECKED FOR ACCURACY are then being sold as "expert guides" at top dollar. And again this is all being done from one of the top PPC training systems in the IM market.

In 2008 a very well-knonw IM guru sold a "complete marketing home study course" that was completely created by a writer with ZERO IM experience and the final product was rolled out the door and sold to consumers WITHOUT BEING CHANGED AT ALL!

It really pisses me off. I'm not being naive here I do understand the value of outsourcing and I don't suggest a marketer needs to produce his or her own products however when you are selling "Expert guides" that someone who doesn't know **** is writing for you I say it's fraud.

I personally know the writers who create "guru guides" for MANY big shot marketers and in many cases:

1. The guru client doesn't provide anything beyond a description, i.e. no research material, no reference, nothing.
2. The material is published "AS IS". It was written on total guesswork and speculation and it gets labeled as "expert" content and sold to unwitting newbies!

I know I'll get flamed for this (if the thread isn't outright deleted) but this is bull**** folks.

Would you want to buy a weight loss book from some lardo who weighs 300 pounds?

Would you buy advice on dating from someone who never goes out on dates?

Then why should it be OK to buy "marketing advice" written by people who know jack s*** about the topic they are writing about?

A recent HUGE launch was a product created by a guy I'm friends with. HE confided in me his guilt over the issue... he knows nothing about the subject matter and yet his guru client blatantly told him it wasn't an issue. The product was sold (thousands of copies!) and I compared the finished product to the draft my friend showed me - A PERFECT MATCH!!!

I could give names but I won't. It's not my place to interfere with someone's marketing strategy but I had to at least try to say something.

Enough is friggin' enough already dammit!

I've been selling products and services online full-time since 2005 and I've watched a big fat chunk of this industry go down the toilet in the manner described above.

What Can You Do To Avoid Buying GARBAGE?

What am I suggesting? Honestly I don't know exactly what to say given the absurd nature of this problem.

But here are what I feel to be some legitimate courses of action.

• One solution for newbies is to look for real coaching, personal consultation, etc. Rather than buying e-books with names that sound more like blockbuster movie titles invest in face time or real guidance from a business/marketing coach.

• The workshops given here at the forum are a great example of legitimate opportunities to learn directly from expert entrepreneurs.

• Also anything from IMC (Internet Marketing Center) is legitimate and has been tested in the field many times before ever being packaged and sold to you.

• A few popular IM info marketers that I know personally who always strive to provide accurate information are Justin Michie, Glen Hopkins, and Robert Puddy.

• I also know many others who may not be stamped as "gurus" but who can teach anyone to make a nice living from home.

• Certainly I have purchased many good info products from people I do not know personally. In no way am I suggesting that all of IM is "bunk" but I AM saying without hesitation that a deeply offensive trend of using one's name to sell sub-quality info to unsuspecting newbies has developed.

Take this info for what you will. But I have to wonder of anyone who flames this post: have I hit a nerve?

My sincere hope is that at least a few dozen stuggling marketers will read this and become a bit more shrewd when it's time to buy an e-book or course.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Tim, I think I'm on your list, though I can't remember the last time I got
anything from you. Maybe my spam filters are chucking them in the trash.

Another big problem with this business.

I applaud you for coming out and revealing this crap.

That's why I don't let anybody write for me...not even an article.

I get flamed for not outsourcing my writing but this is the main reason why
I don't.

What comes out of my mouth is mine and mine alone...for good, bad or
indifferent.

As for a solution, I don't see one. Because how can you tell what books
are ghost written? I sure can't.

And to say go get coaching...some people just can't afford a reputable
coach. And even there, how do you know who's reputable and who's just
full of crap?

I agree this is a huge problem, but I for one don't have a real solution
that everybody can afford.

[Derek Pankaew]

Hey Tim,

I completely agree with everything you said.

Steven: There's really enough free information on the Warrior Forum alone for anyone to start making money online. Once you're profitable, then it's reasonable to start investing in coaching from others.

[kenj]

Simply Brilliant Tim.

I have just recovered from being completely taken in by a bunch of NON gurus.

I work almost entirely in non IM niches because I cannot stand the false promises that these "Experts" offer

Ken

[anton343]

For someone who is a newbie to IM thanks for the post it's opened my eyes.

I sometimes use scriptlance for projects (not writing) but graphic or web design etc. And I always wondered what happened to the numerous posts on there for article writers.

They getting them done on the cheap and now selling them to people like myself for top dollars


Great Post

[MikeWords]

This is rampant. Shouldn't be shocking to anyone.

If there's a market, people will flood it with crap. My advice to newbs is don't buy anything. You can find all the info you need for free. You just need to dig for it.

[Steadyon]

If one applies the basics from books you can buy at Amazon and Barnes & Noble on seo and internet marketing you will beat 95% of all of your competition in my opinion.

The data is a lot cheaper too.

I will always continue to buy books like this which cost $20 dollars here, $20 dollars there etc.

But I won't buy any more major "releases" until I have better utilised what I have already bought over the years.

We are doing great now and will do better by utilising more stuff we are learning, but that doesn't mean we will go and spend $1,997 on the "latest" launch.

If we utilised half of the materials that are already in our office library then we will grow 10x in the next year or two.

So pay a visit to your local (but big) bookshop and unearth some information treasure.

Good luck.

[Johnathan]

Hi Tim --

Thanks for pointing that out. While I do agree that some genuine 'crap' might be churned out... Someone with 0% experience in these areas could quite possibly write a very good report/e-book/course, etc -- if they had the resources -- and are basing their research/content off of people who are successful in the field.

For example, if a journalist wrote about how to make 1 million dollars in 1 year, after interviewing 100 millionaires, although they may not have personally made even a million in their lifetime, I would still be interested in seeing what they wrote.

If they are a quality writer, and understand the material they are reading, and obtain that material from other successful (proven) peopl e-- then I would say that most likely that the end-product would be just as good as if they were an expert in the field themselves.

Of course, I agree that there is a lot of crap being churned out -- but just note that some people can still put together good quality stuff with the right resources.

[jlandells]

A few years ago, I paid $5995 for personal, one-on-one coaching and was promised the earth. The coach that ended up working with me was working with public domain material and wasn't even aware of what I'd been sold. I ended up trying to get a refund and getting nowhere with that either!

It seems like the only way to learn is to either find somebody reputable (which I've since done) or learn the hard way by trial and error (which I've also done...!)

-John.

[Joel Gray]

Tim,

Great insight into a growing problem within our IM community, I agree with your views 100 percent.

Joel

[DiamondPed]

Tim,

There needs to be more posts like this this to highlight the possible pitfalls to the noobie marketers that join this community.

PeterC.

p.s. Your Fonts are hurting my (old) eyes LOL

Thanks for all the responses.

Steve W. I thought I was on your list as well but ditto with not seeing anything in a while. Perhaps I have since moved emails or something - will check you out anew shortly.

Just to clarify:

As a writer I agree that sure good research can allow me to write quality on a variety of topics. But I think selling an expert course or series of expert e-books that was researched by a writer and not created by the authority in the field is at best shady... I just can't feel right about it.

And I agree also that my suggested solutions are far from bullet proof. Sadly this is a problem that doesn't have a clear-cut answer and it's one of the big reasons the IM industry is called a scam by many in the more traditional business/marketing field.

Bottom line is newbies (though many have no real intention of even trying to succeed) deserve to get worthwhile material when they buy expecting to learn real methods. Of course there will always be newbies (loads of them) who won't take responsibility for their own success and wouldn't get off their butts to work if you spent 8 hours a day working with them in-person, but they still should not be sold a load of theory and fiction for their B2B investments.

Anyway onward and upward and thanks again to all who posted.

[Christophe Young]

Tim,

Thanks for bringing this up. I have to agree and I'm VERY picky about who I learn from because anyone can claim to be an "expert." I don't believe testimonials at all and I don't even read them on anyone's website.

I found the best way to judge someone's credibility is by following them for a while and really listening to what they have to say. I'm at a point now where I can get a "feel" for the TRUE mentors. It's unfortunate that so many are just about screwing people. It's just the way it is.

I, for one, want to do it the right way. I write all my articles, newsletters and always treat my customers with respect. I know what it's like to be a newbie looking for information. Sure, a lot of us could screw people but do you really want to be THAT kind of guy? I don't.

I can also vouch for IMC. I learned almost everything about IM from Derek Gehl and his products. A truly professional company and I'm glad they are out there.

[sevenish]

I'm shocked ... SHOCKED, I tell you.

Seriously though, I appreciate your post Tim. I don't buy IM stuff or WSOs much. I used to call people out selling WSOs that were out-and-out copy/pastes from other forums but there are just too many to keep up with and I don't have the time. One guy even downloaded the free scripts for one free method that was posted on BHW and sold both the method and the scripts here without even changing the file names.

Originally Posted by sevenish

I'm shocked ... SHOCKED, I tell you.

LOL.

Yeah I got a little worked up but it's just where I was in the moment. I know there's nothing I can do to change the issue but hoping to impact at least a few people who read this.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by sevenish

I'm shocked ... SHOCKED, I tell you.

Seriously though, I appreciate your post Tim. I don't buy IM stuff or WSOs much. I used to call people out selling WSOs that were out-and-out copy/pastes from other forums but there are just too many to keep up with and I don't have the time. One guy even downloaded the free scripts for one free method that was posted on BHW and sold both the method and the scripts here without even changing the file names.

You know what really pisses me off? I bust my butt trying to come up with
original material and then I hear stuff like this.

Just goes to show you that there are some people who will do anything for
a buck.

[Chris W. Sutton]

Okay, a couple of things I want to mention here...

1. I know what you are saying BUT, when I buy a product, I'm not concerned if it was outsourced or written by the person I bought it from. What I care about is if it works. I don't look at anyone on here as a guru so I am not shocked by the fact that someone outsources their product; in fact, it is quite a common thing.

2. I don't believe in newbies. There is no such thing! The members of the WF are PEOPLE and should be treated as such. There are some who are more experienced and there are some who are less experienced but they all have feelings.

3. The WF is a FORUM... it isn't paradise or Shangri la. The number of posts a person has is totally irrelevant and you should never put anyone on a pedestal because they are well-known! I have read threads where someone will say, " So and So is a Warrior and I can't believe he/she would do such a thing!" Do what?

4. People are NOT always who or what they seem to be. ANYBODY can come in here and pretend to be ANYTHING. Do the words "due diligence" mean anything to you? You can dress a skunk up in a tuxedo and send him to town but he will STILL be a skunk!

5. Get to know people. I have made a lot of friends on this forum and I can ask a question about somebody and it is rare that no one will have an opinion about them. This has saved me a lot of grief over time. "Yeah, Chris, but I don't have a lot of friends here!" So what is stopping you? MAKE friends and don't wait for them to come to you. Do you think I was BORN with lots of friends in the WF? Of course not! I approached people and I got to know them. You can do the same thing.

Take care!

[sevenish]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

You know what really pisses me off? I bust my butt trying to come up with
original material and then I hear stuff like this.

Just goes to show you that there are some people who will do anything for
a buck.

Well, don't get too pissed off. YOU, after all, have a more sustainable business than someone who is always on the lookout for something to swipe and slap into a WSO without being caught. That should count for something.

[pinks]

This post is definately helpful to the newbies(like me).I almost bought a 2000$ product from a so called guru...but finally decided not to give it a try...I dont regret my decision.The truth is the different products and the sales pages really brainwashes a newbie.Most of the time(or maybe all the times)I am disappointed with what I bought...maybe I just dont know where to find the right stuff.
I just enrolled for a course in the warrior forum(wso) from Justin Michie,I am hoping it would be diffrent from whatever I have bought till now.
Pinks

[sevenish]

Chris,

One of your last WSOs was one of the last I've purchased, and I'm still using that material and the output from the coaching. I also purchased one of Kevin's Recipes that was delicious. Angela Edwards' latest monthly offering is fantastic.

And ya know? if it were all totally outsourced it really wouldn't matter to me. The products were valuable and have really helped me in my business.

While Tim did describe outsourcing, I read it more as a "fake it 'til you make it" type rant, and responded accordingly.

Best wishes.

[Baystreet]

Originally Posted by Chris W. Sutton

1. I know what you are saying BUT, when I buy a product, I'm not concerned if it was outsourced or written by the person I bought it from. What I care about is if it works.

I don't think Tim has any problem with outsourcing as long as the writer is provided with material to base the writing on and then is edited by the "expert" selling the material.

[Jay Moreno]

@tim

i just tried PM'ing you too...

[Chris W. Sutton]

Sevenish,

The "fake it till you make it" people are out there and there are quite a few of them. Again, the world if full of swindlers and that is what they do... swindle! People need to use due diligence before they purchase anything from anybody.

I like to write my own stuff but that doesn't mean I WOULDN'T oursource something if it was a valuable product that would help people. Right now there are a lot of people with debt problems but debt relief is not my area of expertise; therefore, I would have to outsource any report or ebook on the subject. I wouldn't mind doing that IF it was a product that was accurate and would help people.

Quite honestly, I would probably mention in the sales letter that I had outsourced it because I don't have anything to hide. I don't care if I get credit for writing the report and I don't think people would care either. It's original and it works so what do they care. I think people are more concerned about getting their money's worth than whether a person wrote the material or not.

Let me also say that I AM NOT disagreeing with Tim. As I said, there are a lot of people just waiting to take advantage of the uninitiated. Some people are often hypnotized by a shiny, well-known name and they think that person can do no wrong. Anybody, and I mean ANYBODY is capable of abusing a trust. Some people make every effort not to do that and some people make a living from it. Don't make business decisions based on a name. It's called branding.

[CmdrStidd]

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

LOL.

Yeah I got a little worked up but it's just where I was in the moment. I know there's nothing I can do to change the issue but hoping to impact at least a few people who read this.

I will tell you what, you and several others around here need to get a little worked up more often around here. I for one am glad to see this up here. This needs to become a sticky in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

You know what really pisses me off? I bust my butt trying to come up with
original material and then I hear stuff like this.

Just goes to show you that there are some people who will do anything for
a buck.

This is what happens when beginners are promised an easy ride and then they run headstrong into reality. For example, I just saw an article marketing advertisement online here that literally read "Make tons of money without doing any work!" Now you and I both know that a statement like that is total bullsh*t and yet marketers continue to advertise this way.

This kind of marketing is fraudulent and the people that market their products this way need to be charged with international fraud charges. I am sorry but that is the way I feel. If they are going to blatantly lie in their ads then they can blatantly serve time in prison for it.

[Chris W. Sutton]

I don't think Tim has any problem with outsourcing as long as the writer is provided with material to base the writing on and then is edited by the "expert" selling the material.

Hi Baystreet, I, myself, don't even have a problem with that as long as the product has value and it works.

What I DO have a problem with is this...

I know a popular PPC "guru" who hires a friend of mine to write ALL of his e-books and courses. My friend knows squat about PPC, having never used it before and he says his client provides NOTHING in the way of material or research. The result is...

Someone who knows nothing and has no experience with PPC is writing books and courses that WITHOUT BEING CHECKED FOR ACCURACY are then being sold as "expert guides" at top dollar. And again this is all being done from one of the top PPC training systems in the IM market.

In 2008 a very well-knonw IM guru sold a "complete marketing home study course" that was completely created by a writer with ZERO IM experience and the final product was rolled out the door and sold to consumers WITHOUT BEING CHANGED AT ALL!

Now, THOSE are people who don't care about their customers. They are interested only in making money and they don't care about the product they put out.

Your reputation is what is really important in the world of IM. If a person doesn't care about his/her customers, they will eventually be found out. A ruined reputation is very hard to earn back so it doesn't make any sense to take chances.

[Jared Alberghini]

Hi Tim,

I would like to share a little story I came up with while reading this thread...

This has been going on ever since cavemen started communicating and writing on their cave walls.

It's been the blind leading the blind for ages now, as well as the stronger preying on the weaker.

Here's a little story about Gorak and Horak back in caveman times:

There was a tribe of cavemen who had not eaten in a while, and they were waiting for a few of their best hunters to come back from a long hunting trip.

After waiting for several days and nights, they woke one morning and saw a glimmer of hope in the sunrise, and out from the shadows came Gorak carying a huge kill... enough to feed the tribe for weeks... The tribe rejoiced, and the next hunter to go out for the next kill was Horak.

Gorak gave Horak some advice:

Gorak : "Hey Horak, there is some great hunting over those hills and past the lake."

Horak : "Really? I've heard that there are tigers over there...?"

Gorak : "No, trust me, I just came from there and the tigers are gone, but there is some huge game that you can hunt easily over there... they practically come to you! It's the easiest hunt I have ever been on."

Horak : "Well, I guess that does sound tempting... I'm going to go check that out, sounds like bountiful hunting over there."

Little did Horak know that the tigers were still there and Gorak was actually leading him into a saber-tooth tiger's territory/hunting ground and Gorak just wanted Horak's cave and his wife.

Poor Horak... he did not return from his hunting trip.

Don't be a Horak... learn how to determine for yourself when you are being led down the wrong path.

Jared

[ThomasW]

Thanks for the great post Tim. I have watched this IM field become the internet version of the late night infomercial hucksters. My advice has always been that if the product you purchased turns out to be crap then the best stopper is Massive returns. Don't be shy - shove their garbage down their throats - these charlatans exist because people are too shy to stuff it back to them. If they don't return your money contact your state's attorney general.

[A8ch]

Hi Tim,

Not only did you highlight an unfortunate practice, but the way you presented the post was a testament to your own copywriting skills. Well done!

Hermas

[Trieu]

I do agree with you on that. Although, the thruth is there i nothing anyone can do about it. THere is so much PLR material out there, anyone can just claim it as their own work without breaking the law

[g00db0y]

Thanks for the wake up call Tim.

Hopefully you want to share with us other issues regarding about un-ethical approaches used by so called internet marketing gurus. It's gonna be very helpful especially for newbies in the world of IM.

[Kay King]

Tim - Good rant!

Somewhere out there are a few guru-types madly sending non-disclosure agreements to their ghostwriters...just in case the writers are friends with you.

kay

[GreatBiz]

Excellent! It's time someone come out to put things in perspective. I have read a few books from the gurus. I sometimes wonder if they really know what they are saying. Talking about theories and "supposedly" working strategies when they don't work at all.

Actually, it's everyone's guess that many of these guys don't know much about what they write. They are only good at "marketing". Funny thing that someone who doesn't really know marketing knows how to market their products for top bucks!

I read somewhere that some of their so-called earnings and statements are fabricated. I believe that is true.

[cow194234]

I compleely agree with this. I really feel having been a newbie about a year ago that a lot of IM people know NOTHING. Yet preach it and make tons. It is gross to think this is the new way to "be the top IM marketer" to lie through your teeth and sell a crap product. I really wish I had been here in the beginning.

[Loren Woirhaye]

I'm actually shocked. I know it's naive of me but I always
assumed this kind of outsourced junk info-product was
strictly the obvious made-in-Asia PLR-type stuff. It never
occurred to me that bigger-ticket things would be outsourced
to unqualified writers on a routine basis.

[arclight]

There is a lot of good sense written here and the responses go to show that it is a very real issue. However, there has to be some sense of "let the buyer beware". In the end I don't care if my insane uncle wrote the stuff.....so long as it works. If it doesn't work then that is a different matter.

Geoff

Originally Posted by arclight

In the end I don't care if my insane uncle wrote the stuff.....so long as it works. If it doesn't work then that is a different matter.

Geoff

Well sure. I can agree with that but in many of the cases I've seen the finished product is a bunch of guesswork and nonsense that simply will not provide a useable blueprint to the consumer.

And that's the point of my post.

Also while I'm posting I want to point out that I'm definitely not bashing these writers who are doing the best they can with the assignments given them. They're taking high paying gigs to put money in the bank and I understand.

My distaste is for the "expert marketers" who obviously view their customers with little regard. If I bought a guide on beating my favorite video game I would expect to be able to use the info provided to beat the AI and overcome many of the virtual challenges; I think it reasonable to demand a marketing guide contain legitimately useful content as well.

[Noel2010]

I've been saying this all along...that the system that thay are selling doesn't make money. The money they make is only from selling the ebooks and courses.

I mean, if these gurus were making $1000s per day using their system, what would they be doing here? And then next month, they are promoting their friend's new money making system as the best ever and giving away their system free as a bonus!

You can't name names here but I think I know some of those guys. But the good thing is they offer a money-back guarantee (except those co-reg guys)

Noel.

[Georgann McCrosson]

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

Well sure. I can agree with that but in many of the cases I've seen the finished product is a bunch of guesswork and nonsense that simply will not provide a useable blueprint to the consumer.

And that's the point of my post.

Also while I'm posting I want to point out that I'm definitely not bashing these writers who are doing the best they can with the assignments given them. They're taking high paying gigs to put money in the bank and I understand.

My distaste is for the "expert marketers" who obviously view their customers with little regard. If I bought a guide on beating my favorite video game I would expect to be able to use the info provided to beat the AI and overcome many of the virtual challenges; I think it reasonable to demand a marketing guide contain legitimately useful content as well.

I am one of the people who bought a lot of info products while trying to learn how to start a business on the internet. Maybe it's a female trait, maybe I'm just that naive, but I spent a lot of time (A LONG TIME) thinking that the reason I wasn't getting the results promised by the 'author' was because I wasn't understanding the material. I accepted fault rather than questioning the material, or the author's knowledge or integrity.

I didn't know how to vet the products or analyze the producers. I didn't know any of them. I thought that people who were considered to be authorities and were giving testimonials about the latest and greatest products wouldn't do so at the risk of endangering their reputation.

I spent an embarrassing amount of money and wasted more time than I want to admit trying to start a business. I wasn't looking for an easy or lazy way to make a living. Having some health issues that made working from home very attractive, building a business on the internet seemed to be a perfect solution. I didn't want to get rich quick. I simply wanted to continue paying the mortgage.

There are a couple hundred thousand more people in the same situation now as I was three years ago. We as a community can mitigate, or perhaps even prevent, others who are so vulnerable right now from losing even more than they have already.

Tim, thanks for bringing this problem to light. So-called newbies aren't ignorant, just naive. The majority aren't trying to make a quick killing, but are probably trying to figure out a way to keep a roof over their family's heads and food on the table in a time when 'real jobs' are scarce.

Georgann

[Jmn187]

Interesting point made here. Its should just be known. To all you newbies out there. Don't buy anything.

Just read Warrior Forum!

and I'm done

In retrospect maybe I should reconsider the term "newbie". It does sort of dehumanize that target group of people.

Food for future thought on my end I guess.

[oneempowered]

The sad thing is that a newbie has no way of knowing that the info is bogus until someone tells them or they figure things out for themselves.

I wish you could actually OUT these gurus, but I realize that isn't very practical and would become counterproductive in a hurry.

I wholeheartedly recommend that every newbie joins the WarRoom because it's quite possibly the best source of information on the internet. When you do, read everything from Allen Says (admin) and everything from Jack Duncan. There are several others, but starting with those two will provide quite an education.

[artwebster]

A nice choice of subject line.

Maybe your next could be - "Let's go screw some offline businesses!"

It seems to me that the whole ethos of internet marketing has been reduced to who can make the biggest (as in number of nausiatingly repetitious pages) product and sell it to the biggest number of gullible idiots.

I learned a long time ago that there are very few people in internet marketing whom I can trust. Most of my trust was destroyed when asking for clarification of points they had made in marketing materials or in forums and getting no credible response.

I have watched the trends in marketing flow in and out like the tide. Someone will make a sale of a 'new' idea and, before you can turn and spit, everybody is promoting it. Currently the two hot ideas are ripping off offline businesses using smoke, mirrors and lies and membership sites - or was that last week?.

[yzal]

Thanks for this post Tim, I will definitely think twice before I buy another info product.

I'm going to make sure I run everything past you guys on this forum before I make any further snap decisions.

[yzal]

BTW Jared, I liked your story.....poor, poor Horak

[Easy Cash]

This is like any business.

It comes down to reputation and ethics.

Ever heard of 'Caveat emptor'?

This applies to any industry. What about dodgy builders? What about dodgy property developers?

Using dodgy tactics to make money applies in every niche, nook and cranny you can find and has been around since money was invented.

IM is no different. Whether someone employs cheap labour to create a product is no different from an offline business employing a student to do a 'professionals' task.

Look at a lot of the major corporations around and you will discover similar principles.

Look at any scam artist offline - and you will find similar tactics.

It is all about the money.

'Caveat Emptor'

[Steadyon]

Not that I advocate it at all, far from it, but even poor information if APPLIED and ACTED ON can be more profitable than super information that just gathers dust.

Far too many people think money still grows on trees as far as the internet is concerned and even though they say they spend long hours doing this or that, they aren't actually doing anything EFFECTIVE and so don't make any money.

[Alan Petersen]

That's part of their MO. If a customer complains they put the blame back on you. You're not following the plan. You're not putting the time, etc. When in reality as Tim explained in the OP they don't even know if it works because they have never used that "system" themselves. It's based on research and theory written by a ghostwriter.

The sad part is that there are lot of good guys & girls in the IM niche who provide excellent info products that can actually help you but most people go for the shiny, loud new thing out there.

Originally Posted by Georgann McCrosson

I am one of the people who bought a lot of info products while trying to learn how to start a business on the internet. Maybe it's a female trait, maybe I'm just that naive, but I spent a lot of time (A LONG TIME) thinking that the reason I wasn't getting the results promised by the 'author' was because I wasn't understanding the material. I accepted fault rather than questioning the material, or the author's knowledge or integrity.

I didn't know how to vet the products or analyze the producers. I didn't know any of them. I thought that people who were considered to be authorities and were giving testimonials about the latest and greatest products wouldn't do so at the risk of endangering their reputation.

I spent an embarrassing amount of money and wasted more time than I want to admit trying to start a business. I wasn't looking for an easy or lazy way to make a living. Having some health issues that made working from home very attractive, building a business on the internet seemed to be a perfect solution. I didn't want to get rich quick. I simply wanted to continue paying the mortgage.

There are a couple hundred thousand more people in the same situation now as I was three years ago. We as a community can mitigate, or perhaps even prevent, others who are so vulnerable right now from losing even more than they have already.

Tim, thanks for bringing this problem to light. So-called newbies aren't ignorant, just naive. The majority aren't trying to make a quick killing, but are probably trying to figure out a way to keep a roof over their family's heads and food on the table in a time when 'real jobs' are scarce.

Georgann

[Anomaly1974]

I wrote a number of products, articles, e-books and the like with very basic information in them but I never marketed them as advice for professionals or experts and certainly never promised to make people rich. However, my latest product is about how I did lose (and kept off) 65 pounds or about 37 kilos so I do know a bit about that. Being an ex "tough guy" (Before it was sanctioned by the UFC) and having been in a few wrestling matches "back in the day" I also felt justified adding some information about weight gain, toning and trimming and doing it in a healthy manner.

The materials I have written for other people and "experts" ... well off the record, I have two "best sellers" in India and in all honesty, I am glad that they do not have my name on them.

Kudos for pointing this out as many people do use these types of products do so just to make a buck with absolutely no concern for the end user.

[Floyd Fisher]

Why does the opening rant sound to me more like an infomercial for Derrick Gehl?

Anyone else noticing what I saw?

[Alan Petersen]

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

Why does the opening rant sound to me more like an infomercial for Derrick Gehl?

Anyone else noticing what I saw?

I didn't see it that way. Although I can't speak for his intentions it appears to me he was trying to add some positive info as to not paint all info product creators with the same brush so he mentioned IMC and a few warriors he believes do a good job. It's more of a rant than an infomercial to me.