Dare I Ask...? Yet Another WFH Critque Thread

43 replies
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#critque #dare #thread #wfh
  • Profile picture of the author BudaBrit
    I'm not the big expert you'll want commenting first, but I immediately think...where's the hook?

    You have price as a selling point in your headline but don't mention it. Then the bolded sections don't flow for me.

    I'll leave the more insightful comments for the bigger fish in this room
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  • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
    John,

    I almost NEVER recommend writing for free, but I've seen the big picture long enough now, where I've seen incredible results coming from doing it right.

    The fact is, to make some decent money as a copywriter... you'll need results, samples, testimonials, conversion stats, etc.

    In other words... PROOF that you can back up your claims.

    So, if you have the time and are willing to do this... I've seen it pay off for a few of the students I had do this.

    Again, this is just ONE method, one idea... I'm not saying it's the only thing to do, or even if it's worth your time.

    But, it IS an option, so I figured I'd throw it out there.

    The problem with writing copy for free is, often times you attract less than desirable clients. And I only mean that in the way that they probably won't test your copy, use your copy, or any of that.

    So, one thing you can do is contact a few successful business owners and see if they'd be willing to test out some copy you write.

    I wouldn't waste your time contacting new businesses or start ups... or newbie marketers because they probably don't have the means to test your copy.

    On the flip side... you probably won't hear back from the big players either. In their minds... they don't have the time or need to test out a newbie writer who doesn't have results.

    In fact, even getting ahold of them may be tough.

    BUT... and believe me, this works because about 6 of my students have done it successfully in the past 5 years or so... pulling down some high paying jobs as a result.

    You can go to Clickbank and find some "middle of the ground" marketers... those who are between the high gravity scores and zero gravity.

    You want to find marketers who at least have enough chops to know what they're doing... they're getting traffic, etc... and they have the means to test out some new copy.

    I'd try and get ahold of them through email, or Facebook, etc... and see if they'd be willing to test out a new letter you'll do for them.

    Tell them they don't have to do a thing except test it, and if it works... you'll give it to them for a HUGE discount if they'd be willing to offer you a testimonial and if you can use them as a case study.

    Again, you want to offer this to businesses/marketers who have the means to test right away.... you don't have to send it to folks who will never use it, don't have the funds to test, etc...

    You want to find those clients in which your copy could make a huge change for, right away.

    Something where they can plug it right in, see results, and let you know.

    And if you indeed help them double or triple conversions... you can offer the copy at a discount in return for feedback/testimonials.

    So, that's just one thought. Again, it's just a thought if you have time. I've seen it work well for a few students... they ended up getting $1,000 or more for their sales letters pretty fast.

    Writing for free is something I almost never recommend... but if you're starting from zero and have nothing to show for samples, proof, testimonials, etc... what do you have to lose?

    Get stuff out there circulating and getting results/feedback... but do it right.

    Don't try to attract freebie seekers who will take your copy and do nothing with it.

    Try to find winners who will use your copy and try to win more... so you too can grab some
    winning campaigns under your belt.

    Again, just one thought...
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    • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
      John,

      This section isn't tired of critique threads, just pointless critique threads where the business owner doesn't use any of the advice.

      Anyhoo... here's my take...

      So you're offering copywriting services with no testimonials/results - nothing to show people.

      That's fine.

      Not a problem.

      Here's what you need to do...

      Use your WFH copy as a sample... which means writing long copy - 700 words ain't enough.

      Build your persuasive argument... appeal to their emotions... give them a picture of what working with you will be like.

      Now, with the copy itself... here are my thoughts...

      "Young gun" is better Young "Rock Star"... The former makes you look like you're owning your age and that it isn't stopping you from writing great copy.

      People don't want "crowd-pulling copy"... they want dollars and sales (unless they're selling a webinar or event ).

      You should use the "So what?" test... Copy like your final P.S. is pointless and doesn't help you make the sale. In fact that particular one makes you look desperate.

      Now, here's a large concern of mine - and I'd love to hear what others think about this - your copy is very price focused. It sounds as if you're standing behind your price rather than your ability to write compelling copy. Compare your copy to an offer Mark Pescetti wrote back in 2013: http://www.warriorforum.com/warriors...ust-497-a.html

      Do you see the difference? Mark talks a lot more about how he can write effective sales copy. It's great to be a bargain and get the person to say "oh wow, I'll hire them!"... but only after building the value and desire for them to think "He's a damn good copywriter".

      Chris

      P.S. I like your writing style... it's very easy to read. Good rhythm.
      Signature

      Wealthcopywriter.com :)

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  • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
    John,

    Yeah... upon looking at it more closely, I can see why the lack of response.

    Almost every single word you write is about you. And that would be okay, to a point,
    if you used it to lay out all of your successes and results.

    For example.... "I sold over $204,000 of my very first ebook... here's a screen shot
    of my Amazon account. I'm sure I could help you do the same".

    But the problem is, John, is every statement about YOU isn't backed up by anything.

    Every claim you make is not backed up with any kind of proof. So, it really could
    be considered just hot air and fluff.

    Focus on getting proof, and focus on getting real world feedback from others.

    that way, if you make a claim... you could at least back it up.

    If your sales letter promoting your services was better, you possibly COULD land
    some good clients because that letter itself would serve as a sample.

    But in this case, it's just not that good.

    For every single time you write something about yourself... try and turn it around
    and show the reader why that will help him/her. And then back it up with proof if
    you can.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
      Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

      Almost every single word you write is about you. And that would be okay, to a point,
      if you used it to lay out all of your successes and results.

      For example.... "I sold over $204,000 of my very first ebook... here's a screen shot
      of my Amazon account. I'm sure I could help you do the same".

      But the problem is, John, is every statement about YOU isn't backed up by anything.
      .
      I agree.

      Until you do have proof, you could tell the reader about the copywriting techniques in your arsenal that you're ready to unleash on their sales letter.

      Here's a few examples you can look at (all Warriors - though very very quiet now-a-days)...

      Expert Copywriter | Marketing Consultant | Top Copywriter | Marketing Strategist | Direct Response Ad | Top Gun Copywriter | Top Gun Copy | High Response Ads
      Bowring Marketing
      Cutting Edge Copy

      (I took inspiration from them and my own promotion is similar... Though, I won't link to it because of WF rules.)

      Note the bullets.

      Chris
      Signature

      Wealthcopywriter.com :)

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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    John, I appreciate this took you a good amount of time.

    But it demonstrates that you don't know one of... if not the most important aspect of writing copy (IMHO)... which is positioning.

    Rock Star? Talking about yourself the WHOLE time? Going after bottom feeders? (aka low ballers.)

    Look...

    You get to decide every single word on your letter; you get to decide WHO you're having a conversation with... YOU get to lead the conversation.

    Your copy doesn't do that. At all.

    Let me tell you something brother (in my best Hulk Hogan voice)...

    Don't listen to anyone who tells you testimonials and a portfolio is a necessity. It's not. There are lots of effective ways to get high-paying clients - by writing emotionally-packed copy that speaks to what your ideal clients want; by taking on a project on-the-cheap (maybe)... because you want to prove you're legit.

    Spend $7 on Rick Duris' report for copywriters. In it, you'll find how guys like myself (and countless others I'm sure) created a successful copywriting career.

    By the way...

    I haven't even looked at that copy Chris posted up in ages. It made me cringe.

    But guess what?

    I got two long term clients out of it - who have to-date put a collective 6 figures in my pocket (front and backend.)

    Why? Because I produced results and charged my normal rates from that point forward.

    Start over.

    Who is YOUR ideal client?

    What does he/she/they want?

    Begin there.

    Mark
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  • John,

    A couple of ideas for you.

    Every client who hires a copywriter regardless of their fees, experience or kudos feels they are taking a risk.

    Will the copy work? Will I get on with the copywriter? Will the copy be a cut and paste hack job?
    Will it look just like everyone else's? Will it work? Will I look like a complete idiot using it? And once again Will it work?

    etc etc etc (x999 and a half)

    There isn't a client in the entire universe who gives a toss about you (they may seem to but its all superficial)

    And its understandable - they are paying you to create miracles for them - because that is more or less what we copywriters are promising.

    And to be fair once you have created the above mentioned miracles - then they start to care.

    Can you see the almost unlimited hooks you could develop using these thoughts?

    Write a few of them down and you'll quickly see how and why you can transform your pitch.

    Making it so real and personal it deeply resonates with your audience.

    As has been mentioned it's not about you - it's about them.


    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Young "Rock Star" Copywriter Is Giving YOU A One-Time Chance To Get Crowd-Pulling Copy At A HUGE Discount

    Uh - you're a so-called "Rockstar copywriter" - that no one's heard of.

    High-Converting Sales Copy. On The Double.
    At A Reasonable Rate.

    "At a reasonable rate"??? Already you're cheapening the offer - "selling from your heels" as we say. Smells of desperation.
    From: John Lloyd
    Copywriter. Hard-Rock Addict. Rather Decent Guitarist.

    ^ I never do this shit - "From the desk of" BS. I could care less that you like rock and play guitar. Can you write copy that converts into dollars? That's all I give a shit about.


    Dear Entrepreneur In Need of Sizzling Hot Copy,

    cringe

    You know better than anyone that a good copywriter is hard to come by. “Rock star” copywriters charge ridiculous rates.
    And even if you’re willing to sign over your life savings, you’ll be at the back of the line (6+ months waits are standard).

    So what’s a fresh start-up with a tight budget (and tighter deadlines) to do? You badly need invigorating copy to launch your product or service but the “rock stars” are out of reach.

    Enough of the "rock star" BS. Say it one more time and I hit you.

    At the same time, you know that all those amateur copywriters will end up wasting your time with poor quality copy that doesn't convert. It’s an awful dilemma, isn't it?

    I could care less what the other writers will do or say. What are you going to do for me?

    Well friend, cheer up! You’ve got another option on the table.

    "Friend"? "Cheer up!" WTF

    You see, every once in a blue moon, a young upstart has the gall to write "rock star" copy at reasonable rates (just to show his worth).

    I knew it - Blam! You just got knocked out. And this "reasonable rates" tripe is just begging for the order. Sounds to me like you'd work for nothing.

    That’s where I come in. Six months ago, I set out to become a master copywriter. Ever since that day, my devotion to the craft has been obsessive (or at least my girlfriend thinks so).

    Please don't say "That's where I come in". Sounds amateurish.

    Every morning, I've been getting up at 4AM to bury myself for a few hours in the writings of copywriting legends like Gary Halbert and Claude Hopkins (just to name a couple). As soon as I get back from work, I put in a few more hours writing out sales letters by hand!

    Who the eff cares? Ditto for the girlfriend reference.

    Just picture in your head...
    27 books read, 82 sales letters copied by hand and 5 two-inch binders filled with notes!

    No... I have better things to do.

    Come to think of it, my girlfriend is right. I really am obsessed!

    Honestly, it’s been a long time in the trenches. My right hand cramps up at random times from all those hand-written letters. But all that hard work has paid off. BIG TIME.

    Well it doesn't look like it does it.

    You see, by studying the masters, I’ve learned the secrets of copy that sells. To put it simply, good copy is all about pressing people’s emotional buttons. Logical reasoning won’t sell candy to a child. But if you can satisfy an emotional need, people will be salivating at the prospect of buying your product. That’s what I've learned to do.

    Simple as that huh? In 2014.

    Now, your business is going to benefit from all my labors. By the time I’m finished revamping your copy, there will be blood in the water. Your target customers will come from every corner of the web (like sharks in a frenzy) in order to click, “Buy Now”!

    "Blood in the water"..."Like sharks in a frenzy". Oh God. Stop. Please stop. This is so awful it's not funny.

    My hope is that you’re prepared to make a ton of money. A lot of people can’t handle it…

    Keep hoping dude.

    Naturally, you're all excited now. But I know you have one lingering question.

    Excited? Am I? Hang on...I'll check. Nope. Not excited.

    But I know the answer to "one lingering question" - "are you for real?"


    How much do you charge, John? The answer is it depends. The size and scope of projects vary far too much for any self-respecting copywriter to post flat rates.

    Face-palm.

    "The answer is it depends". Too scared to ask for the order huh? You think if you can get them to respond then you'll nail them?

    So if you’d like to get the ball rolling, then shoot me a P.M or email me at jlloydcopywriting@gmail.com and tell me exactly what you need. I’ll get back to you promptly with a quote and delivery time.

    Take that "So" and boot it off a cliff. Blacklist it - until you know how to use it. And don't give the reader an option. "Let's get the ball rolling" would be better (but still sucks).

    If you like what you hear, then send me my fee on paypal and I’ll get to work right away. It’s really that simple.

    Hang on. Have I missed something? How can they "send me my fee" when they don't know what you charge?


    Look forward to hearing from you.


    Best Regards,


    John Lloyd

    p.s. You should know that this is a ONE-TIME OPPORTUNITY to get a very talented (and committed) copywriter for a very reasonable fee. I’m only taking on 3 clients to start off.

    Begging again. "I'm only taking on 3 clients to start off". Guffaw. Do you really think I'm that stupid? You are desperate and it shows.

    After that, I guarantee my rates will be going up SIGNIFICANTLY. So if you want your business to transform into a sales generating machine, don't delay. Send me a message NOW!.

    Oh do me a favor...

    p.p.s. While I finish typing this, my girlfriend is pestering me to go to the shopping mall with her.

    As that will surely take up the whole rest of the day (and do untold damage to my bank account!), it’d be nice if there were a couple P.Ms waiting for me when I get back!

    In your dreams buddy.

    John, this is a stinker. No wonder you didn't get a response. But... I suspect you can write - just by reading the original post.

    You need to "find your voice". How? More you write, better you get.

    Got anything else you can show us? Or send it to me on PM if you like.

    Don't despair - we all get the shit kicked out of us when we're learning.


    And well done for having the balls to post this. Very positive move.
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    • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      Young "Rock Star" Copywriter Is Giving YOU A One-Time Chance To Get Crowd-Pulling Copy At A HUGE Discount

      Uh - you're a so-called "Rockstar copywriter" - that no one's heard of.

      High-Converting Sales Copy. On The Double.
      At A Reasonable Rate.

      "At a reasonable rate"??? Already you're cheapening the offer - "selling from your heels" as we say. Smells of desperation.
      From: John Lloyd
      Copywriter. Hard-Rock Addict. Rather Decent Guitarist.

      ^ I never do this shit - "From the desk of" BS. I could care less that you like rock and play guitar. Can you write copy that converts into dollars? That's all I give a shit about.


      Dear Entrepreneur In Need of Sizzling Hot Copy,

      cringe

      You know better than anyone that a good copywriter is hard to come by. "Rock star" copywriters charge ridiculous rates.
      And even if you're willing to sign over your life savings, you'll be at the back of the line (6+ months waits are standard).

      So what's a fresh start-up with a tight budget (and tighter deadlines) to do? You badly need invigorating copy to launch your product or service but the "rock stars" are out of reach.

      Enough of the "rock star" BS. Say it one more time and I hit you.

      At the same time, you know that all those amateur copywriters will end up wasting your time with poor quality copy that doesn't convert. It's an awful dilemma, isn't it?

      I could care less what the other writers will do or say. What are you going to do for me?

      Well friend, cheer up! You've got another option on the table.

      "Friend"? "Cheer up!" WTF

      You see, every once in a blue moon, a young upstart has the gall to write "rock star" copy at reasonable rates (just to show his worth).

      I knew it - Blam! You just got knocked out. And this tripe is just begging for the order.

      That's where I come in. Six months ago, I set out to become a master copywriter. Ever since that day, my devotion to the craft has been obsessive (or at least my girlfriend thinks so).

      Please don't say "That's where I come in". So amateurish.

      Every morning, I've been getting up at 4AM to bury myself for a few hours in the writings of copywriting legends like Gary Halbert and Claude Hopkins (just to name a couple). As soon as I get back from work, I put in a few more hours writing out sales letters by hand!

      Who the eff cares? Ditto for the girlfriend reference.

      Just picture in your head...
      27 books read, 82 sales letters copied by hand and 5 two-inch binders filled with notes!

      No... I have better things to do.

      Come to think of it, my girlfriend is right. I really am obsessed!

      Honestly, it's been a long time in the trenches. My right hand cramps up at random times from all those hand-written letters. But all that hard work has paid off. BIG TIME.

      Well it doesn't look like it does it.

      You see, by studying the masters, I've learned the secrets of copy that sells. To put it simply, good copy is all about pressing people's emotional buttons. Logical reasoning won't sell candy to a child. But if you can satisfy an emotional need, people will be salivating at the prospect of buying your product. That's what I've learned to do.

      Simple as that huh? In 2014.

      Now, your business is going to benefit from all my labors. By the time I'm finished revamping your copy, there will be blood in the water. Your target customers will come from every corner of the web (like sharks in a frenzy) in order to click, "Buy Now"!

      "Like sharks in a frenzy". Oh God. Stop. Please stop. This is so awful it's not funny.

      My hope is that you're prepared to make a ton of money. A lot of people can't handle it...

      Keep hoping dude.

      Naturally, you're all excited now. But I know you have one lingering question.

      Am I? Hang on...I'll check. Nope. Not excited.

      But I know the answer to "one lingering question" - "are you for real?"


      How much do you charge, John? The answer is it depends. The size and scope of projects vary far too much for any self-respecting copywriter to post flat rates.

      Face-palm.

      "The answer is it depends". Too scared to ask for the order huh? You think if you can get them to respond then you'll nail them?

      So if you'd like to get the ball rolling, then shoot me a P.M or email me at jlloydcopywriting@gmail.com and tell me exactly what you need. I'll get back to you promptly with a quote and delivery time.

      Take that "So" and boot it off a cliff. Blacklist it - until you know how to use it.

      If you like what you hear, then send me my fee on paypal and I'll get to work right away. It's really that simple.


      Look forward to hearing from you.


      Best Regards,


      John Lloyd

      p.s. You should know that this is a ONE-TIME OPPORTUNITY to get a very talented (and committed) copywriter for a very reasonable fee. I'm only taking on 3 clients to start off.

      Begging again.

      After that, I guarantee my rates will be going up SIGNIFICANTLY. So if you want your business to transform into a sales generating machine, don't delay. Send me a message NOW!.

      Oh do me a favor...

      p.p.s. While I finish typing this, my girlfriend is pestering me to go to the shopping mall with her.

      As that will surely take up the whole rest of the day (and do untold damage to my bank account!), it'd be nice if there were a couple P.Ms waiting for me when I get back!

      In your dreams buddy.

      John, this is a stinker. No wonder you didn't get a response. But... I suspect you can write - just by reading the original post.

      You need to "find your voice". How? More you write, better you get.

      Got anything else you can show us? Or send it to me on PM if you life.

      Don't despair - we all get the shit kicked out of us when we're learning.
      If I was the OP... I'd mozy on over to my Paypal and shoot Mal some "let me buy you a beer" cash because this is above and beyond.

      But more importantly, I'd print out what he said... put it next to your computer screen,
      erase what you've written... and start from a blank slate.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

        If I was the OP... I'd mozy on over to my Paypal and shoot Mal some "let me buy you a beer" cash because this is above and beyond.

        But more importantly, I'd print out what he said... put it next to your computer screen, erase what you've written... and start from a blank slate.
        This.

        Can't add to this, really.

        .
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    • Profile picture of the author Cam Connor
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      Uh - you're a so-called "Rockstar copywriter" - that no one's heard of.
      Uh, outside WF, that would be true for you as well...
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      • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
        Banned
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author Cam Connor
          [DELETED]
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          • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
            Banned
            [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author splitTest
        Originally Posted by Cam Connor View Post

        Uh, outside WF, that would be true for you as well...
        Let's be fair to TCN -- he gave a good critique... And it's not like whether anyone has heard of him or not invalidates the point he made.

        The OP's "rock star" stuff not only says nothing about copy, it's also not very believable, especially coming from a noob offering discounts... Plus not everyone relates to rock or guitar... Marketers are all over the musical map.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
        Originally Posted by Cam Connor View Post

        Uh, outside WF, that would be true for you as well...
        And you know that... how?

        Alex
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        • Profile picture of the author John Lloyd
          Wow. I really appreciate the thoughtful (and brutal) critiques, guys.

          Mal, after reading your post, I felt like I had gone a couple rounds with Mike Tyson.

          Agonizing. But I agree with you...my ad was laughably bad in many respects.

          I'll take you up on your offer and P.M you some of the other stuff I've written.
          Do you offer mentorships by the way?


          Two points everyone raised were:

          1. Too much babbling about myself

          Honestly, I realized that as I was writing the ad. But when you don't have a track record of results, it's not easy keeping the focus on the prospective client (and what you're gonna do for him).

          I like Chris's idea about honing in on the techniques I've learned. I'll definitely incorporate that in my second attempt.

          2. Too much price-focus

          This is the catch-22 I think any fledgling copywriter faces. I wanna position myself as a premium copywriter but I don't have the testimonials/portfolio to do that right now.

          The angle I was going for was "young-gun copywriter offering discount sales copy---just to get his name out there". Obviously, it didn't work so well...

          Thanks guys (and keep 'em coming!)
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          • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
            Originally Posted by John Lloyd View Post

            This is the catch-22 I think any fledgling copywriter faces. I wanna position myself as a premium copywriter but I don't have the testimonials/portfolio to do that right now.

            The angle I was going for was "young-gun copywriter offering discount sales copy---just to get his name out there".
            I know the struggle...

            It comes down to your confidence as a copywriter. Right now you're in a mindset of... "I may not be good enough (I've got no portfolio), but I can be the cheapest."

            Which is toxic to you, your business and any client who is looking for a copywriter.

            Why not position yourself as a "Young-gun copywriter revealing his sales-shooting techniques... Grab this Warrior Special, while it lasts."

            (Make sure that each client commits to giving you a testimonial after the results are in.)

            -Chris
            Signature

            Wealthcopywriter.com :)

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            • Hi John,

              Some very good points made by ChrisWrighto, Shawn and - especially The Copy Nazi (not called that for nothing).

              Seriously, the points made by the latter especially are education in themselves.

              What struck me about the copy is that there is no clear hook - and no clear single offer. You are claiming to provide:

              1. high-converting sales copy,
              2. very fast (at the double), and
              3. at a reasonable rate

              Really? All that? I don't believe it.

              and if copy IS high converting, AND produced at the double - then you wouldnt expect to get it on the cheap.

              Instead: choose just ONE aspect, ONE offer, ONE main benefit - and make sure you back it up.

              Also:

              What is your "point of view" about copy? eg What makes good copy, what is crap copy?

              How do YOU prefer to write copy? What works best from your point of view? Do you have an opinion on this? You've read a fair bit of stuff, so you should have a few opinions already.

              If you know your p.o.v. and it's useful to potential clients, then maybe state it in your headline and/or copy body. Instead of resorting to cliches - rock star, guitar, girlfriend - latter was mentioned at least three times. It's trying to be friendly, matey, down to earth, but it's not relevant here.

              Also re studying and reading - not interested in all the binders and books. What matters is what you've written. If you dont have anything yet, get writing and create a portfolio. Write for affiliate products. Put it on your website. That carries more weight than telling everyone how you've studied. Reading books about brain surgery does not make you a brain surgeon. Doing brain surgery does.

              And I agree with Copy Nazi, leave out that "dear friend" and "From/From the desk of" stuff, it grates. "dear friend" is slimy, and From/from the desk of is the preferred style of Nigerian scammers (amongst others).

              And the "looking forward to hearing from you. Best regards" at the end - sounds like someone applying for a job that they're not too sure about.

              Good luck.
              Signature
              www.KevinWellsMarketing.com
              Sales Copywriter. Digital Marketer. Entrepreneur.
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          • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
            Originally Posted by John Lloyd View Post

            Wow. I really appreciate the thoughtful (and brutal) critiques, guys.

            Mal, after reading your post, I felt like I had gone a couple rounds with Mike Tyson.

            Agonizing. But I agree with you...my ad was laughably bad in many respects.

            I'll take you up on your offer and P.M you some of the other stuff I've written.
            Do you offer mentorships by the way?


            Two points everyone raised were:

            1. Too much babbling about myself

            Honestly, I realized that as I was writing the ad. But when you don't have a track record of results, it's not easy keeping the focus on the prospective client (and what you're gonna do for him).

            I like Chris's idea about honing in on the techniques I've learned. I'll definitely incorporate that in my second attempt.

            2. Too much price-focus

            This is the catch-22 I think any fledgling copywriter faces. I wanna position myself as a premium copywriter but I don't have the testimonials/portfolio to do that right now.

            The angle I was going for was "young-gun copywriter offering discount sales copy---just to get his name out there". Obviously, it didn't work so well...

            Thanks guys (and keep 'em coming!)
            Think about it this way...in marketing and copywriting, we talk about having a hook. Something compelling, that makes them stand up and say "hey that's cool...might need to check that out."

            I know you're new, but how many newbies go for "I'm new and don't have results but I'll work for cheap for awhile until I get results".

            Doesn't stand out much does it?

            As a copywriter, get used to being your own best cheerleader. But you've got to do it creatively. You're amazing because YOU DID THIS GREAT THING FOR SOMEONE ELSE. Get it? You went out of your way for someone else - thereby making you great. Not because I'm great, you'll get great things.

            It's more of what the guys have already said above - changing the conversation from being about you to being about what you can do for others.

            They've shared great examples. You're creative and have a good foundation.

            Just make sure you go through with a machete after you're finished. The only things that survive the cut answer WIIFM - What's In It For Me?
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            Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

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          • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
            Banned
            Originally Posted by John Lloyd View Post

            Wow. I really appreciate the thoughtful (and brutal) critiques, guys.

            Mal, after reading your post, I felt like I had gone a couple rounds with Mike Tyson.

            Agonizing. But I agree with you...my ad was laughably bad in many respects.

            I'll take you up on your offer and P.M you some of the other stuff I've written.
            Do you offer mentorships by the way?


            Two points everyone raised were:

            1. Too much babbling about myself

            Honestly, I realized that as I was writing the ad. But when you don't have a track record of results, it's not easy keeping the focus on the prospective client (and what you're gonna do for him).

            I like Chris's idea about honing in on the techniques I've learned. I'll definitely incorporate that in my second attempt.

            2. Too much price-focus

            This is the catch-22 I think any fledgling copywriter faces. I wanna position myself as a premium copywriter but I don't have the testimonials/portfolio to do that right now.

            The angle I was going for was "young-gun copywriter offering discount sales copy---just to get his name out there". Obviously, it didn't work so well...

            Thanks guys (and keep 'em coming!)
            How interesting. I'd forgotten I'd helped this guy. Apparently now he doesn't respect me. Don't think he ever PMed me with more of his stuff or even bought me a beer for that matter. Funny thing is... and I hate to say it - especially after the debacle in the other thread - the kid can write when he puts his mind to it. Content, that is. He's got a long way to go before he makes copywriter. And with his current attitude he's going to find the going hard. Don't think I've seen a nastier character on here. Picking fights with everyone - both here and the Offline forum. Surpasses Mark Andrews in his prime - and that's saying something. Maybe it's all the Kratom he's doing.

            p.s. you'll note our Mister Lloyd admits back in December (and demonstrates) that's he's a rank beginner. And yet... here we are in June 2015 and he's claiming all sorts of expertise. Not a good look.
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            • Profile picture of the author The Pines
              Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

              Mister Lloyd admits back in December (and demonstrates) that's he's a rank beginner. And yet... here we are in June 2015 and he's claiming all sorts of expertise. Not a good look.

              A 5hit-bagger on WF?


              I'm shocked, shocked I tells ya!


              Seriously, it seems that nobody even bothers to learn copywriting anymore. They just read a report on 'charging what you're worth' and off they go looking for clients. Then they come back to WF looking for help / critique 'cos they don't know how to write and they don't know how to handle a client.


              The circle of douchbaggery widens...
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              • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
                Originally Posted by The Pines View Post

                Seriously, it seems that nobody even bothers to learn copywriting anymore. They just read a report on 'charging what you're worth' and off they go looking for clients. Then they come back to WF looking for help / critique 'cos they don't know how to write and they don't know how to handle a client..
                Or, when they realize they can't hack it, they try to make money by teaching other people how to do it.

                That's where all these spuds are coming from you know. Those books that insist you can "fake it till you make it" by reading a few books, and posting "helpful" comments on a forum to demonstrate your "expertise."

                If only they knew how obvious their inexperience becomes to the rest of us the moment they open their mouths.
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            • Profile picture of the author John Lloyd
              Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

              How interesting. I'd forgotten I'd helped this guy. Apparently now he doesn't respect me. Don't think he ever PMed me with more of his stuff or even bought me a beer for that matter. Content, that is. He's got a long way to go before he makes copywriter. And with his current attitude he's going to find the going hard. Don't think I've seen a nastier character on here. Picking fights with everyone - both here and the Offline forum. Surpasses Mark Andrews in his prime - and that's saying something.
              Jeesh. Googling my name, youtube'ing me, reviving ancient threads...looking up "my" address in county records.

              Someone has a major man crush.

              Funny thing is... and I hate to say it - especially after the debacle in the other thread - the kid can write when he puts his mind to it.
              Coming from you, I'm not sure whether to be flattered or concerned.

              Maybe it's all the Kratom he's doing.
              You ought to try it, Mal. Might help you get over that midlife crisis that radiates through your posts.


              P.S. All levity aside, I admit I'm a bit of a brawler (on forums, and in real life). The nose has been broken more than once. But in this case, I did not start the feud.

              If you guys can shed your groupthink for a moment, you'll recall that Seth attacked me without provocation in that thread because he couldn't be bothered to read the first post.

              I did let it spiral out of control, I admit. But it was fun.

              Frankly, there are some very obnoxious personalities on this forum (and unknown outside of it) who claim guru status. I enjoy knocking them out of their high towers.

              I'm an upset the apple cart type guy...
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              • Profile picture of the author Jennifer Hutson
                Originally Posted by John Lloyd View Post

                P.S. All levity aside, I admit I'm a bit of a brawler (on forums, and in real life). The nose has been broken more than once. But in this case, I did not start the feud.

                If you guys can shed your groupthink for a moment, you'll recall that Seth attacked me without provocation in that thread because he couldn't be bothered to read the first post.

                I did let it spiral out of control, I admit. But it was fun.

                Frankly, there are some very obnoxious personalities on this forum (and unknown outside of it) who claim guru status. I enjoy knocking them out of their high towers.

                I'm an upset the apple cart type guy...
                We all get a little heated, but picking fights with the entire copywriting forum is not the way to go. Especially when you're very wrong on many of the points you were trying to make.

                I do agree that you're a good writer and could probably do a lot with yourself if you'd drop the pride/attitude act and stop trying to position yourself as an expert when it is very obvious that you're still inexperienced.

                I know you think that burning bridges here doesn't matter because other copywriters aren't your clients, but that's not necessarily the case.

                Lots of writers partner to create teaching courses and IM ventures, so it's not so far a stretch to say that you're missing out on potential opportunities with that mentality. Just food for thought.
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  • Profile picture of the author NickN
    Stop trying to be "cute." You may think you sound relatable and funny by throwing in lines about being a guitarist and shopping with your girlfriend. But prospects don't care about that stuff.

    I made the same mistake when I started out. I'm big into self-deprecation humor. I tried that in my copy. Big mistake. Like I said in a different thread, take the Walter White-approach when it comes to humor in your copy: "tread lightly."

    Also, your whole pitch is built around a "HUGE discount." Then at the end, you are vague about your prices. Again, from my own experience, I don't recommend centering your offer around a low price -- unless you WANT to attract subpar clients. But if that's the approach you're going to take, you should be more specific.

    -Nick
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    • Profile picture of the author splitTest
      Originally Posted by NickN View Post

      Stop trying to be "cute." You may think you sound relatable and funny by throwing in lines about being a guitarist and shopping with your girlfriend. But prospects don't care about that stuff.
      I notice that new copywriters (at least the ones on this board) always go for "cute" and "cocky"... They also tend to overdo the "story" aspect...

      I'm not really sure what to think of that approach. It would NEVER sell me on anything -- in fact, for me it's a turn-off -- but then sometimes I wonder if I'm not just some misanthropic cynical curmudgeon.

      Maybe it sells some people?
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    John, you don't have to worry. At least you have one thing already
    going for you. You live in the most powerful copywriting state- Florida.

    Florida has the greatest copywriters, dead or alive.

    -Ray Edwards
    Signature
    The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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  • So is the stumbling block -"New copywriter, no experience so no portfolio = I need to be dog cheap?"

    Making the USP "dog cheap"

    Maybe not the best ever selling point.

    So, what is the real, cutting edge benefit of a "new copywriter?"

    What will the clients get that they are less likely to get elsewhere?

    How much more effort will you make?

    How can you put all your studies into immediate use?

    And what will this do for the clients?

    Work out the answers and it should condense into the famous Avis headline.

    We Try Harder.


    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
      Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter View Post

      So, what is the real, cutting edge benefit of a "new copywriter?"

      What will the clients get that they are less likely to get elsewhere?

      How much more effort will you make?

      How can you put all your studies into immediate use?

      And what will this do for the client?

      Work out the answers and it should condense into the famous Avis headline.

      We Try Harder.
      Steve makes a great point.

      I got a massage this morning from someone who just got of out of school. And the session was the best I've had in ages.

      Which isn't unusual. Because people who have a lot to prove and are just starting on their journey are often the most passionate... and excited to produce results.

      I also agree with Nick. You're being too mysterious about the price point. Pick a price and make it seem like a no-brainer.

      And make sure you communicate you're willing to go above and beyond for clients who produce your copy and drive traffic to it. "I'll help you tweak the copy - until it converts. Period. Because your success and my success are one in the same. We BOTH need my copy to convert. And as long as you're willing to drive traffic to the offer, I'm on-board to do whatever's necessary. All I'm asking for is a testimonial - once we get there. Show me one big shot copywriter who's willing to give you the same offer."

      Mark
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        John, today every copywriter and their brother
        are saying high converting.

        If you have read Breakthrough Advertising, you would
        be aware of the term market sophistication and the deferent
        levels of it.

        When you identify copywriters have said conversion rates,
        then have got specific about them, it's time to move over
        to another hook, another BIG idea.

        Right now there is a gap and opening for a copywriter
        to be the guy or gal who re-positions products and services
        to higher price points for maximum profit.

        If you don't take that position in the marketplace,
        use that as an example to come up with one nobody else
        is using.

        Best,
        Doctor E. Vile
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  • Shot and a half from Doctor Vile (and an excellent first line on Mr Pescetti's post - the rest was good as well).

    Breakthrough Advertising.

    Don't leave home without it.

    (or make sure you have a copy in your library).


    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter View Post

      Shot and half from Doctor Vile (and an excellent first line on Mr Pescetti's post - the rest was good as well).

      Breakthrough Advertising.

      Don't leave home without it.

      (or make sure you have a copy in your library).


      Steve
      Olgivy On Advertising also has a variation of it,
      every campaign needs a big idea.

      Best,
      Doctor E. Vile
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        To further emphasize the importance of bringing something new to the table,
        an ad agency went in with the same dog and pony show they and others do.

        They got booted out of Volkswagon.

        Knew things had to change, went outside their industry
        and got help for pitching and presenting.

        They went back in with whats the trend happening below the surface in the
        way car buyers now behave.

        They positioned themselves as the ones who know the most about it,
        that they are the ones doing the client selection and they are very busy.

        All after they got another meeting after they got booted out.

        Got the contract worth $100,000,000.

        Today the stakes are too high to go in with
        a version of what has been heard by buyers.

        Best,
        Doctor E. Vile
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  • John,

    another thing.

    Ask yourself the question: what kind of copy do you want to write? I don't think your page told us that (and not sizzling, rock star copy etc, that stuff means nothing).

    Copywriting covers a vast range - website sales pages, email sales letters, email newsletters, online sales brochures, reports. Then there's display ads, Adwords. Video. Plus all the printed material, brochures, guides, posters...

    And for what kind of clients. What sectors are you interested in?

    Try and narrow this down. If you know who you want to talk to and why it will give you a better idea of what you should be saying.
    Signature
    www.KevinWellsMarketing.com
    Sales Copywriter. Digital Marketer. Entrepreneur.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      Originally Posted by KevinWellsMarketing View Post

      John,

      another thing.

      Ask yourself the question: what kind of copy do you want to write? I don't think your page told us that (and not sizzling, rock star copy etc, that stuff means nothing).

      Copywriting covers a vast range - website sales pages, email sales letters, email newsletters, online sales brochures, reports. Then there's display ads, Adwords. Video. Plus all the printed material, brochures, guides, posters...

      And for what kind of clients. What sectors are you interested in?

      Try and narrow this down. If you know who you want to talk to and why it will give you a better idea of what you should be saying.
      That, plus a lot of Content-writers are calling themselves "copywriters" these days. Some do both, of course. And that could be handy for a client.

      As you say Kevin - spell out exactly what you're going to do for the client.

      I think he needs to put together a package for a real or imaginary client. Do a salesletter, a video script, an autoresponder series, maybe an exercise in Branding/Positioning, some Facebook stuff, Adwords copy, a page of content (so-called "article").

      That could be quite a good angle. Give them a virtual "Big Box of Stuff" kinda thing. A package deal.

      I feel that could go quite well.

      I wouldn't even mention you're just starting out.

      Once you get your first client - leverage it. Talk about results. Talk about how much money you've made the guy. Talk about what an unbeatable deal it is.

      If you're any good, it will snowball. And you're off to the races.
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      • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
        Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post


        I think he needs to put together a package for a real or imaginary client. Do a salesletter, a video script, an autoresponder series, maybe an exercise in Branding/Positioning, some Facebook stuff, Adwords copy, a page of content (so-called "article").

        That could be quite a good angle. Give them a virtual "Big Box of Stuff" kinda thing. A package deal.

        I feel that could go quite well.
        Exactly. "No portfolio" is a non-starter. Write some copy for a made-up business or a real product you sell. Use that to get started.
        Signature
        Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
        - Jack Trout
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  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    You said...

    You see, every once in a blue moon, a young upstart has the gall to write "rock star" copy at reasonable rates (just to show his worth).

    ...and basically stated that you're young, inexperienced, desperate (i.e. "reasonable rates") and that you've got something to prove (show his worth).

    You don't show you worth by working for cheap. You show it by getting results.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mara Tyler
    I would agree that the premise of your "pitch" is flawed in that you're a very decent writer suggesting you'll work on the cheap.

    In order to attract the highest quality leads, you have to be the highest quality lead yourself.

    Own your craft and charge what you're worth. Discounts are good and they have a place in marketing, but this does feel a little too "please sir" to me.

    The right people will pay you what you're worth.

    Good luck!
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  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    Originally Posted by John Lloyd View Post

    Jeesh. Googling my name, youtube'ing me, reviving ancient threads...looking up "my" address in county records.

    Someone has a major man crush.

    Coming from you, I'm not sure whether to be flattered or concerned.

    You ought to try it, Mal. Might help you get over that midlife crisis that radiates through your posts.

    P.S. All levity aside, I admit I'm a bit of a brawler (on forums, and in real life). The nose has been broken more than once. But in this case, I did not start the feud.

    If you guys can shed your groupthink for a moment, you'll recall that Seth attacked me without provocation in that thread because he couldn't be bothered to read the first post.

    I did let it spiral out of control, I admit. But it was fun.

    Frankly, there are some very obnoxious personalities on this forum (and unknown outside of it) who claim guru status. I enjoy knocking them out of their high towers.

    I'm an upset the apple cart type guy...
    No, you're the bad apple my friend.

    Oh Mr. Lloyd, what are we going to do with you... hon?

    You know, I think I recognize you now. When I was in grade school, there was this kid who went around talking smack to other kids. He got his butt kicked several times, but he never learned his lesson.

    He just picked himself up out of the dirt, wiped the blood and snot off his nose and the tears out of his eyes, and pranced around the playground talking about how HE had won the fight.

    BTW, how are YOU known outside this forum?

    Oh, that's right, you're the guy who says this...

    Originally Posted by John Lloyd View Post

    Don't take it personally, buddy. But I don't take advice from faceless, nameless internet personas who provide no info as to their qualifications/experience --- and seem to get a hard-on arguing over minutiae in areas outside their expertise.

    With that said, we can let this thread die. None of us are getting any value out of it.
    And then turns around and says this...

    p.s. Your digging is a wasted pursuit. I value my privacy. I'm not foolish enough to put out my real name on the web.
    http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ll-work-2.html

    How about telling us what miraculous copywriting secrets you discovered which took you from being completely new to this (back when you posted this thread) to being someone assumes they can knock ANYONE on this forum out of their "high tower?"

    Go ahead please.

    I'll get popcorn for everyone.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Lloyd
      Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post

      No, you're the bad apple my friend.

      Oh Mr. Lloyd, what are we going to do with you... hon?
      First off, calling another man "hon" is rather effeminate, don't you think?

      You know, I think I recognize you now. When I was in grade school, there was this kid who went around talking smack to other kids. He got his butt kicked several times, but he never learned his lesson.


      He just picked himself up out of the dirt, wiped the blood and snot off his nose and the tears out of his eyes, and pranced around the playground talking about how HE had won the fight.
      That's actually pretty spot on. I lost most of my fights in primary school. But at 6'2 and a lean 210lbs, I've been on a bit of winning streak lately.

      My gut tells me you were the chubby kid who let bullies have their way with him. And you're still mad about it.

      BTW, how are YOU known outside this forum?
      Having a number of pen names does a fine job of maintaining my anonymity.

      But I've never claimed guru status. And I don't go around beating up on guys due to my own reading errors.

      How about telling us what miraculous copywriting secrets you discovered which took you from being completely new to this (back when you posted this thread) to being someone assumes they can knock ANYONE on this forum out of their "high tower?"
      Gladly. First off, copywriting is put on too high a pedestal in this forum.

      I've created several of my own products, and I have a subscription site that has done quite well.

      Good copy is just a small part of a sales funnel. You guys will likely foam at the mouth over that statement.

      But as my freelance gigs are only extra coin for me...I can be honest.
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      • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
        Originally Posted by John Lloyd View Post

        My gut tells me you were the chubby kid who let bullies have their way with him. And you're still mad about it.
        No, I was a champion MMA fighter. 2nd in the Southeast Region of the U.S. at 17. Trained under Joyce Gracie and Steve Combs. I still dabble in it. Come to Tampa sometime and enter one of the tournaments. I'm not afraid to hit a guy with glasses on.

        Originally Posted by John Lloyd View Post

        Gladly. First off, copywriting is put on too high a pedestal in this forum.
        So what should be on the high pedestal? I'm giving you plenty of chances to demonstrate some kind of expertise. Go ahead, educate us please.

        Originally Posted by John Lloyd View Post

        I've created several of my own products, and I have a subscription site that has done quite well.
        And that makes you an expert? Who has endorsed you? Anyone we've heard of?

        Originally Posted by John Lloyd View Post

        But as my freelance gigs are only extra coin for me...I can be honest.
        So what happened to your comments about being immoral and proud of it?

        You know, I believe I've wasted enough time making you look like a fool. After all, you don't seem to need any help with it. Have fun in your Ivory Tower Johnny boy. It will be fun watching you self-destruct.

        Toodles.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Lloyd
          ^I'm more of a muay thai guy. For god knows reason, rolling on the floor with sweaty hairy men never appealed to me.

          Then again, I've never called men by affectionate nick names either. Different strokes for different folks.
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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
            Banned
            Originally Posted by John Lloyd View Post

            For god knows reason, rolling on the floor with sweaty hairy men never appealed to me.
            So, you prefer that the sweaty men that you roll around on the floor with are clean shaven. To each, his own.

            Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
            Then again, I've never called men by affectionate nick names either.
            You can dish it out but you can't take it.
            Signature
            Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
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  • Profile picture of the author ChadHaynes
    You guys have no idea what you're talking about.

    Anyone who does the following:
    1. makes sure people know his penis works by mentioning he hasn't worked in the erectile dysfunction market
    2. mentions that he's into combat sports when it doesn't fit the conversation
    3. mentions that he doesn't do Jiu-Jitsu because he "isn't a homo, man"
    Is COMPLETELY secure and should be RESPECTED.

    Here's a sales page for ya:

    John Lloyd, the copybrawler.

    Way too cool for Jiu-Jitsu. Penis works great. Respects nobody.

    You're already convinced, aren't you?

    I don't respect you.

    If you're a 17 year old with your dad's credit card, have I got a message for YOU!

    I'm not fond of brown people, they're all terrorists.

    That is ENDEARING of me to admit.

    P.S. John Lloyd isn't my real name.
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