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Is the client ALWAYS right??

by Angela Kambarian
33 replies
The client is always right..
Yeah, right.

I hear this preposterous statement all the time, coming
from so many desperate copywriters or marketers who
would bend over backwards to ingratiate themselves with
their clients.

It makes my stomach churn and the hair on my back stand up.
Okay. I have no hair on my back. Just trying to make a point.

I am sure you have heard this "adage" many times before.
It seems to be quite popular among freelancers.
The question is: Does it hold water?

I am convinced that this is a false assumption and should be challenged
by many business service providers. Here is why:

Most clients are reasonable individuals with reasonable expectations.
However, every now and then you will encounter individuals who
are rude, disrespectful, and have totally unrealistic expectations. It is
virtually impossible to satisfy them and nearly every project is doomed to failure, right from the start. Neither you, nor any of your team members will ever be able to live up to their ideal. I am not even sure you should.

From time to time, there will be a client you will be better off without.
Some business professionals or freelance service providers terminate
"bad" customers or clients, and for a good cause. Then the vacuum
gets quickly filled with better business.

Of course, it is in your best interest to provide the best service possible,
meet the ever-growing client expectations and fulfill their demands.
Especially in this economy. Or any economy!

You should do whatever it takes to build long-term relationships and generate repeat business. But let me assure you that you are in for a big disappointment if you constantly aspire to the unattainable and adhere to the "customer is always right" philosophy.

Maybe it's time to re-think your approach and develop a new
stategy when it comes to dealing with clients.
#client
  • Profile picture of the author Angela Kambarian
    You are welcome, CDarklock and Onslaught!

    I decided to bring this issue up simply because most service providers
    adhere to this mentality, which eventually wreaks havoc on their
    lives. It is bad enough that very few business owners apprecite
    the value we bring to the table. Letting them walk all over us is a really
    bad idea.

    When I was corresponding with my fellow marketers on Fortin's board,
    many of them were trying to convince me that in case a conflict arises,
    99 times out of 100 the client is right. Believe it or not.
    I rejected this approach from the start!

    Here is the deal: Do your very best to fulfill expectations and deliver results.
    Do EVERYTHING you can and more.
    Just don't let anybody take advantage of you. In good times or bad, you
    should maintain your dignity and demand respect. That's all...

    PS: Change your attitude from "obsequous" to "assertive",
    from "subservient" to "professional",
    from "desperate" to "powerful", hold your head up high
    and success will follow. And you might even start attracting
    better, high-quality clients. I do believe in Karma.
    Signature

    Copywriter & Marketing Consultant
    www.kambarian.com

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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Angela Kambarian View Post

    The client is always right..
    Yeah, right.
    This is a case of a very limited-application statement being blown out of proportion.

    When providing customer service, never tell the customer he is wrong.

    This is just about making the customer feel validated and well-served. It's not that someone comes in and says "You sold me a crummy watch, I want my money back" and he automatically gets his money back. Policies and procedures need to be followed. It's just that at no time do you actually tell the customer "You know what you can do with that watch? Stick it up your arse!" - even if the customer can't have his money back.

    The principle is frequently misapplied in the professional services industry, because the client comes up and says "Make that page more red" for no real reason except that he wants to exert some control. The customer isn't right that the page needs to be more red, but he's right that he gets to exert some control. You just have to be diplomatic in redirecting the customer from "more red" to a mutually agreeable form of control over the process.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author Angela Kambarian
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      It's just that at no time do you actually tell the customer "You know what you can do with that watch? Stick it up your arse!" - even if the customer can't have his money back.
      Uh-oh..That's a little extreme. Don't you think?
      I would also add some profanity to drive
      the point home. I mean, once you are at it...

      You are right about policies and procedures that
      should be incorporated into any deal.
      Problem is, many marketers omit these policies and
      procedures in the hopes of retaining a client that
      doesn't treat them right and does not appreciate their work.
      Why? They are afraid to loose business and go hungry.
      This type of compromising usually leads to disaster.

      What you should do is come up with a particular agreement (in writing),
      articulate all the points, policies, provisions, and stick
      to them 'till the end. In my honest opinion, when you
      act out of desperation, you end up in a MORE desperate
      situation. I have learned the hard way.

      When I was frequenting other boards in the past, my fellow
      copywriters/marketers were trying to convince me that no matter
      what happens, the client is always right. Baloney on rye!!!
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Angela Kambarian View Post

        When I was frequenting other boards in the past, my fellow copywriters/marketers were trying to convince me that no matter what happens, the client is always right. Baloney on rye!!!
        It depends on the services you provide. As a commodity worker - offering, say, content by the word like I do - the customer is always right. If he wants an article on weight loss optimised for the keywords "crochet" and "alligator," I'll do my best to provide that. It will be a little weird, but if that's what he wants, that's what he wants.

        But with a highly-trained professional service like copywriting (or software development), the customer really does need to STFU and get out of the way. You're the expert, and you're the one who knows how to get the job done. The customer needs to understand that and back off so you can do the job properly.
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author Antares14
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          It depends on the services you provide. As a commodity worker - offering, say, content by the word like I do - the customer is always right. If he wants an article on weight loss optimised for the keywords "crochet" and "alligator,"
          Firstly, the above made me laugh. I once did a history article for someone on Anne Boleyn, Henry VIII's second wife. Now there's this ludicrous rumour that Anne had six fingers and was a witch; something that has continually been proved to be incorrect (no contemporary evidence etcetera).

          We went round and round on it:

          Client: "Why does it not mention she had six fingers?"

          Me: "Because she didn't."

          Client: "But I saw this dramatisation where it said she did."

          Me: "Yeah, but she didn't, the first mention of the six fingers is over 150 years later. Even the contemporary witnesses who hated her didn't say it, and it's the kind of thing they would have mentioned given one particular diarist would only refer to her as 'the great concubine'."

          Client: "Well, who says she didn't have six fingers?"

          Me: "Every Anne Boleyn historian the world has ever seen."

          Client: "But... people will expect the article to mention her having six fingers."

          Me: "I can mention it is a rumour but if I state it as fact, it's going to be incorrect."

          Client: "Put it in anyway, as fact."

          Me: *headdesk*

          I think the above is a good example of the answer to this question in general. Clients are frequently incorrect, but they know what they want and it's your job to do it. You can advise them, but you can't dictate to them if they've got their hearts set on something. This guy believed Anne Boleyn had six fingers despite evidence, so I wrote it as fact, cringing all the while.

          It really used to bother me, but now it's more a case of "head down and carry on". If someone is particularly insistent or difficult to work with, I'll cut them loose regardless of what they pay. There are ways of dealing with difficult people, but at some point you just need to cut your losses.

          There's no need to tell them they're a nightmare, though - they'll figure it out eventually
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          • Profile picture of the author Collette
            Originally Posted by Antares14 View Post

            Client: "Why does it not mention she had six fingers?"

            Me: "Because she didn't."

            Client: "But I saw this dramatisation where it said she did."

            ...
            Dude. SPLORT. Thank you.
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            • Profile picture of the author Aronya
              Great topic!

              IMHO, the only place where the customer is always right is in their own mind.

              In reading thru this thread, I'm seeing 2 separate discussions:
              1) Problem clients aren't worth the grief
              2) Sometimes you have to give them what they want

              I agree with both, to a degree. But. Much of the problem can be alleviated up front if we do a good job of outlining exactly what we will or won't do for them. Crappy prospects will simply tend to stop coming around. What you're left with are good clients who are clear about what to expect from you, and are usually willing to admit when they want something stupid (make it redder, etc.) just because they want it. If a client wants his logo on top, but is willing to admit it's an ego thing, I'm happy to put the logo on top - unless I was hired to create an ad that will make him money.

              In personal relationships, people treat us the way we TEACH THEM to treat us. Somebody yells at you for no good reason (maybe they're annoyed about something unrelated to you), and you just ignore it. The next time they're annoyed about something, they're just a little bit more likely to take it out on you. If you continue to accept the abuse, it escalates. All because you didn't point out at the first opportunity that it's not acceptable behavior.

              The same thing happens in business. I witnessed the following: Girl gets hired as a receptionist for a large company. She's very sharp, so they ask her to do a little filing. No problem. Much of her time is still spent doing nothing. More filing. Then they want to train her to help with account management, filling out forms, data input, etc. As long as she (anybody) didn't complain, and especially since she was capable of multi-tasking well, they just kept giving her more to do. Her paycheck, of course, didn't grow in relation to her responsibilities.

              People take advantage of situations. It's human nature. Actually, I think it's just nature - plants and animals do the same thing.
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              • Profile picture of the author Angela Kambarian
                Originally Posted by Aronya View Post

                In personal relationships, people treat us the way we TEACH THEM to treat us. Somebody yells at you for no good reason (maybe they're annoyed about something unrelated to you).
                That's a very good point. I couldn't agree more.
                Applies both to business and personal relationships.

                Here is the problem: some freelance service providers,
                copywriters in particular, who are in dire straits
                end up catering to the worst, rudest, most ungrateful and
                unreasonable clients. The harder they work, the more
                abusive their clients become. It's like a bottomless pit -
                nothing would ever make the "weasel" happy.

                But a poor copywriter will continue pushing himself
                to the limit and servicing a bad client. Why?
                Here is why. He needs money. He has to eat. He has
                bills to pay and cranky children to support.

                The point I am trying to make is, desperate measures
                NEVER lead to success. Desperation creates even more desperation.
                You should always act from a position of strength, not a position
                of weakness. Regardless of your circumstances!

                Sometimes, a service provider knows what is best for the client.
                That's what makes him/her an expert. If a client does not agree
                with a marketer and has doubts about his/her skills, he doesn't
                have to work with that person. If you make a deal, make sure you
                are on the same page, working well together and complementing
                each other. It's not a boss-employee relationship, it's a partnership.
                If abuse becomes a part of it, pack your bag and run for your life.
                Don't waste your time and energy trying to prove something to
                a person who doesn't see your value.

                PS: I have never been in this situation myself. Fortunately.
                Most of my current clients are great. But we should always
                be prepared for unpleasant surprises and have a plan of
                action in place, in case this type of situation occurs.
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                • Profile picture of the author Aronya
                  Logos are for branding. Lots of (most?) companies think branding is how sales are made; witness the typical car commercial. But the payback on branding, as we all know, is rarely measurable in dollars.

                  This is part of my earlier point about establishing really clear guidelines for what you are being hired to do, and what results are expected. If you're being hired to write sales copy for an item that is not a brand name product (read "basically unknown"), and if slapping that big ol' logo right up front is likely to hurt the end result, you need to have it clearly spelled out in your contract that YOU are to decide what parts go where, etc. In fact, the visual aspects of a sales page can be as important as the text, so there's a strong argument for you being responsible for, or at least a consultant on, the layout of the page. The client doesn't want to agree to that? No problem. Just make sure you get paid, or walk away from the job.

                  @Angela
                  I agree with you about desperation begetting desperation. The one small exception I have to take with your comments re: copy writers needing to put food on the table, is that they don't normally start out in that position. Most start out doing it for their own sites, or for friends. Maybe they just start advertising out of the blue. My point is just that they probably didn't start out depending on their writing to feed the family. They most likely had some other job that was paying the bills. Problem is, they started saying "Yes" to those desperation jobs, and it's downhill from there.

                  Tim
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Jeffels
      I was hired by a company to write their 2 step newspaper ad.

      I met with them to get some information. The first thing they said to me is... "So the ad starts with are company logo at the top right?". It took some convincing but they finally listened.

      It seems business owners always want to put their logo at the top. And then the person writing the ad has to start convincing them why they shouldn't do that.

      Best,

      Bill Jeffels
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      • Profile picture of the author Angela Kambarian
        Originally Posted by Bill Jeffels View Post

        It seems business owners always want to put their logo at the top. And then the person writing the ad has to start convincing them why they shouldn't do that.
        In some cases, no convincing in the world will do the trick.

        People rarely argue with a doctor, an accountant or a
        software engineer. They fully rely on their expertise and
        highly-specialized skills.

        We, marketers, are facing the
        challenge of convincing our clients that they should
        follow our advice and do as we say. One tiny-little detail
        can make or break a deal. But most business owners
        do not get it. So, if you find someone who is willing to
        listen, you may consider yourself lucky. Also, there is a
        clash of egos going on that might jeopardise the whole marketing
        campagn. That's why you should
        choose your clients wisely and make sure that they will
        pay attention to your recommendations. Stay away from
        greasly weasels!

        Always remember: marketing is the most essential aspect
        of any business endeavor. Very few businesses survive and thrive
        without a powerful marketing campaign. Your participation
        can transform their earnings and change their lives for the better.
        If they do not realize that, show them the "finger" and move
        on to bigger and better clients. Life is too short. No, really.

        PS: There is a popular saying: "Desperate times call for
        desperate measures." I disagree with this statement.
        Let's change it to: "Don't let desperate times throw you
        off track. Never loose your cool or "succumb" to bad clients.
        Hold your head up high, and your circumstances with start to
        change for the better."
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        Copywriter & Marketing Consultant
        www.kambarian.com

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        • Profile picture of the author Collette
          Originally Posted by Angela Kambarian View Post

          In some cases, no convincing in the world will do the trick.

          People rarely argue with a doctor, an accountant or a
          software engineer. They fully rely on their expertise and
          highly-specialized skills.

          We, marketers, are facing the
          challenge of convincing our clients that they should
          follow our advice and do as we say... But most business owners
          do not get it...
          People rarely argue with people who they believe have demonstrated their superior expertise and specialized skills.

          If, as a marketing professional, you find that your client is neither listening to, nor following, your advice, there is usually one excellent reason for that:

          You have failed to make the first sale: And the first sale is YOU.

          That is usually why your client, who hired you because you have the supposed competence and specialized skills that he lacks, won't STFU and get out of the way.

          They have no confidence in you.

          But most professional services providers fail to grasp that.

          The rare "know-it-all" problem clients will broadcast their intent from the beginning. If you ignore the warning signs - how is that the client's fault?

          Most of the time when clients question your advice, they're not actually questioning your judgement or competence. They simply don't understand why you're doing what you're doing, the way you're doing it. And because of that, they have a "real" fear - originating from ignorance.

          Find out what their fear is, address that fear, provide a solution, and your problem is solved. Of course, that would mean actually listening to your client. Not just waiting for him to stop talking so that you can speak.

          Yes, maybe you have a client who likes a lot of control. If you're working with entrepreneurs or self-made companies, that is pretty much a given.

          So get over it already.

          It is YOUR job to ensure that your client has the "proof elements" necessary to "sell" them on your expertise. It is YOUR job to convey competence, dependability, and expertise. It is YOUR job to ensure that your client treats you with respect - from the very first encounter, real or virtual.

          It is NOT your client's responsibility to make a leap of faith.

          Most service providers don't get that.

          Bottom line: if you've got a difficult client who treats you like a clueless incompetent - it's YOUR fault. Not the client's.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
    Of course the customer isn't always right. There's a simple (yet evil) way to change someone's belief on that. Become their customer, and then give 'em hell... nit pick to death... ask for constant rewrites or changes... you get the point.

    Personally, I would never do that... but if I DID, I imagine they would quickly get the point as well

    A lot of service providers allow themselves to be walked on (a) out of desperation, and (b) because they THINK they are selling a commodity.

    If you're desperate (i.e. you really need that client's money) then I can understand why you'd do just about anything to have or keep their money. The real problem is not having enough clients so that you can afford to say Goodbye to the lousy ones.

    As for the "commodity" thing <sigh>, good writing is NOT a commodity. Good writing stands out from the crowd, it sparkles and dazzles, and it gets the reader to take action or demonstrates authority (if that's what the client really wants).

    Too many marketers (and most writers) still perpetuate this myth that writing IS a commodity.

    I admit, it CAN BE. If I just want 1,000 crappy articles slapped up to try and generate me Adsense revenue, then any old writer could churn it out.

    However, there's no WAY I'd allow anything like that to get on my CopySnips blog. I'm building it into an AUTHORITY site, and I want people to stick around for the long term! Or look at the CopyBlogger blog... in 3 1/2 years he's gone from 0 to 60,000 subscribers... do you think he'd ever allow crappy spun-out articles to even touch the fringes of his blog?

    In that respect, it's up to ALL writers who want to earn more to "sell the difference" (as I call it) and DEMONSTRATE to their clients why not only do they not want "commodity" writing, but how they could well be losing money from it... and, by contrast, how truly excellent writing can make them so much more money.

    If you don't do this, then your client WILL perceive you to be selling a commodity, and so will have no reason NOT to go with someone cheaper.
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  • Profile picture of the author BigVin
    Regarding the logo...

    Unfortunately many businesses put their ego in front of the customers.

    Hence why the logo is at the top.

    It means nothing to the customers...

    But the business wants people to recognize them for who they are.

    The same goes with every business who only wants... "Professional Image"

    Everyone else does that and no one listens to them.

    I'm not saying go crazy car commercial guy. But your advertising isn't going to get results by saying... "we're the most respected in the community blah blah blah".

    Everyone does that and the only people who hear it are the people paying for the ads.

    How's the saying go...

    "When I was young I was worried what people thought of me. When I got older I was worried what people weren't thinking of me. Then when I got older I realized nobody was thinking of me at all!"
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by BigVin View Post

      Unfortunately many businesses put their ego in front of the customers.

      Hence why the logo is at the top.

      It means nothing to the customers...
      I wrestle with this, because it just seems like... well... that's where your logo goes. I've got mine on the top right of my sales page, instead of the top left where it feels "natural," but I keep wrestling with the question of dropping it off altogether. Or moving it to the bottom. Or something.

      It just feels wrong. My logo should be the first thing the customer sees - but he's expected to completely ignore it, and move on! It's there primarily for subliminal benefit, to get it in front of another pair of eyeballs.

      Of course, I've stuck my logo on the top left corner of every damn thing for two decades, so maybe I'm just old and crotchety.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Aronya
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        I wrestle with this, because it just seems like... well... that's where your logo goes. I've got mine on the top right of my sales page, instead of the top left where it feels "natural," but I keep wrestling with the question of dropping it off altogether. Or moving it to the bottom. Or something.

        It just feels wrong. My logo should be the first thing the customer sees - but he's expected to completely ignore it, and move on! It's there primarily for subliminal benefit, to get it in front of another pair of eyeballs.

        Of course, I've stuck my logo on the top left corner of every damn thing for two decades, so maybe I'm just old and crotchety.
        I think if someone is coming to your page from out of the blue (they have no clue who you are), branding is not the first thing you probably want to be doing. On the other hand, if they know who you are, they'd probably EXPECT to see your logo right up front, and would question if they had to look for it. It's all about the situation. If I went to Coca-Cola's website, I'd certainly expect to see their logo.

        My 2cts.
        Tim
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      • Profile picture of the author Collette
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        I wrestle with this, because it just seems like... well... that's where your logo goes. I've got mine on the top right of my sales page, instead of the top left where it feels "natural," but I keep wrestling with the question of dropping it off altogether. Or moving it to the bottom. Or something.

        It just feels wrong. My logo should be the first thing the customer sees - but he's expected to completely ignore it, and move on! It's there primarily for subliminal benefit, to get it in front of another pair of eyeballs.

        Of course, I've stuck my logo on the top left corner of every damn thing for two decades, so maybe I'm just old and crotchety.
        Rather than wrestling with "where the logo feels natural", figure out how important the logo is in your conversion funnel.

        Eye tracking studies show that we instinctively look at the largest image on the page first, then the next largest (usually the headline), then the navigation or body copy.

        "Subliminal" is useless if there is no substantive message to sublimate.

        So, the question really is: What do you want your web site visitor to focus on immediately, when he lands on your page?

        Does your logo convey "professional", "trustworthy", "competent", and "authentic" better than a picture of your smiling face would? Does your logo convey the big promise of your copy better than your headline does?

        If so, then blow that bad boy up and make sure it's the first thing the prospect sees.
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      • Profile picture of the author BigVin
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        I wrestle with this, because it just seems like... well... that's where your logo goes. I've got mine on the top right of my sales page, instead of the top left where it feels "natural," but I keep wrestling with the question of dropping it off altogether. Or moving it to the bottom. Or something.

        It just feels wrong. My logo should be the first thing the customer sees - but he's expected to completely ignore it, and move on! It's there primarily for subliminal benefit, to get it in front of another pair of eyeballs.

        Of course, I've stuck my logo on the top left corner of every damn thing for two decades, so maybe I'm just old and crotchety.
        It's true. Many expect it there. But it's also competing for headline space.

        Although most biz owners don't go for results over everything else (for numerous reasons, some good some not).

        It's the same reason no header/ headline tests almost always win out over header graphic with headline.

        I'm not saying the logo is bad... but a lot of assuming and other stuff put the logo at the top the majority of the time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Punkaj Dube
    If you are hiring an expert for a particular job, let HIM control the things. If you were so knowledgeable, you could have done it yourself.

    The irony is, you can't say these words to your client. Reason being, the client is always right.
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  • Profile picture of the author leukram
    they are alwasys right , if u want to make money
    but I know some clients just behavior they are Gods , so so so unreasonable
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  • Profile picture of the author Angela Kambarian
    One more thing:

    Let's say you are convinced that you are doing the right thing
    and your customer is wrong. But you are afraid that he
    will fire you and take his business elsewhere. So, eventually
    you succumb to his demands and use his ideas instead of yours.

    Guess what? In the end, you will loose him anyway.
    Because your efforts will not generate good results. The customer
    will be upset, disappointed and angry. He will blame YOU.

    So, either way, you loose.
    Case in point: if a business professional hires a copywriter
    or marketer, that person should pay attention to what
    a consultant has to say. Otherwise, it doesn't even make
    sense to do business together. That's all.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
    That's why I really believe in helping EDUCATE the customer.

    Someone recently asked for my help on promoting her writing service. I was happy to help, but sent her off to read my report FIRST.

    That way, when I do offer the help, she'll know where I'm coming from with the suggestions.

    It really does help to have a well set-up marketing funnel... not merely for the money, but also so customers have gone through certain "hoops" first
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  • Profile picture of the author reedcopywriting
    I agree with you Angela!

    So many customer out there will try and use that motto to get more work for less money!
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    • Profile picture of the author Angela Kambarian
      Originally Posted by reedcopywriting View Post

      I agree with you Angela!

      So many customer out there will try and use that motto to get more work for less money!
      Good point, Reedo.

      Some prospects would resort to a myriad of tricks to get
      high-quality service for the lowest price possible.
      Especially in this economy.

      I know some well-established marketing professionals,
      making six figures, who encounter those types of
      "weasels" every now and then. No one in marketing
      is fully safe...You have to be careful and maintain your
      dignity no matter what. If a prospect has doubts about
      a consultant's potential or capabilities, it doesn't make sense
      to sign a deal to begin with. Why do business with someone
      you do not trust??

      Besides, in marketing nothing is cut in stone. No one knows
      for sure how things are going to turn out. No one! What works
      for some people, does not necessarily work for others.
      Some companies get lucky and experience overnight success.
      For others it takes a while to see an uptick in their earnings.
      Of course, economic conditions also factor into the equation.
      The latter is beyond a consultant's control.

      In some cases, years of experience and a proven track record
      are a must. But guess what? Quite often, a fresh perpective
      and an "unadulterated" enthusiasm of a newbie can
      make a big difference.

      Also, what matters is the level of commitment to a client.
      Some consultants put money above everything else.
      Money is their primary motivation.
      Others (like myself) genuinely care...

      Last but not least: I have noticed that successful, well-educated
      and high-end clients treat their consultants with more respect than
      lower-level clients. By the way, successful people in general tend
      to be friendlier than losers.
      Signature

      Copywriter & Marketing Consultant
      www.kambarian.com

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  • Profile picture of the author firegold21
    I think I'm going to wear out the "Thanks" button on this thread. So many good posts, with so many good thoughts and examples.

    When I'm not trying to learn and/or do copywriting, I'm a hypnotherapist, and there's a lot of good stuff in here from a coaching perspective. It's so easy to get caught up in that desperation ... I know I did myself not too long ago, and I'm fighting not to do so again.

    I was doing kinda catch-all contractor work for a friend, in a time when I *really* needed the money. She'd said she'd write up a contract and have us both sign it, but never did. So I wrote one up. Never heard anything about it until it came time to get paid, when she forwarded it to her payroll person. I got stiffed on the pay (much less than initially agreed-upon), but kept working.

    Why? A big reason was that desperation of *needing* that money.

    Needless to say, it didn't end on a good note. And I still haven't quite gotten over the feeling of betrayal, sad to say.

    But in good news, this thread has inspired me a little bit. And even given me some potential product/marketing ideas. Such as maybe making a product aimed at helping people get out of the desperate state of mind, freeing them to attract better clients and jobs.
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    • Profile picture of the author Angela Kambarian
      Originally Posted by firegold21 View Post


      But in good news, this thread has inspired me a little bit. And even given me some potential product/marketing ideas. Such as maybe making a product aimed at helping people get out of the desperate state of mind, freeing them to attract better clients and jobs.
      Hey, Firegold!

      Thank you for your kind remarks.

      I am glad that my thread has encouraged and inspired
      you to do something good for other people. And make
      some money in the process!
      The product that you mentioned above is not a bad idea.
      You know what? Go for it!! Keep us posted and let us know
      what happens. I am thinking about writing a book for
      newbies and discouraged biz profs myself.

      Final thoughts for Firegold and others:
      Never ever allow desperation to get the best of you,
      cloud your thinking or derail you.
      Good times will come only if (only if!!) you act from
      a position of strength. Not a position of weakness.

      Good luck with your endeavors!
      Signature

      Copywriter & Marketing Consultant
      www.kambarian.com

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  • Profile picture of the author SamKane
    NOPE.
    Some clients don't value your service and only want free advice.

    Its no coincedance that the same customers who insist on your lowest possible price and haggle over dollars are the same ones who will waste your time and lower your margins.

    My fabrication business started to make a profit after I "fired" many of my older customers and concentrated on satisfying fewer customers.
    Signature
    These 2 "Weird" Magic Words Can Help You Achieve ANYTHING You Want... Instantly! (Not safe for work or around kids)
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    • Profile picture of the author nontemplates
      Originally Posted by SamKane View Post

      Its no coincedance that the same customers who insist on your lowest possible price and haggle over dollars are the same ones who will waste your time and lower your margins.
      Yes I used to wonder why and then realized it was staring me right in the face, They haggle and want the lowest price because in their mind their dollars are worth more than anyone else's time or resources. Nothing ever matches their valuation system. Some time you can talk them out of that value system but for many people its a personality trait and its not my job to be their psychologist.
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    This is a great thread. Some great war stories. Wanna hear one of mine? Sure you do. lol.

    I'll never forget being on the phone with two people. One was the client and the other was a marketing consultant the client was working with. Ok, that's the scenario.

    I had looked at this guy's sales copy. I have no words for how bad it was. It sucked so much it could lower the vacuum in space. I read this in utter disbelief and actually felt very sorry for this guy.

    Ok. Here's what he wanted...

    He wanted me to do a rewrite BUT using about 70-80 percent of his original copy. Oh! That way the writing fee would be lower. Ok?

    There was a loooong silence on my end. LOL

    At that moment there was a raging internal debate going on in my head. Do I tell this guy to go F*** himself? Do I be polite and professional?

    I was polite and professional for a while. 2 days, a flurry of emails, and at least 2 more phone calls later I fired this guy. It was the first time I ever told someone I refused to write anything for him.

    And he actually replied to my email asking me why.

    The quintessence of cluelessness. Rarified void.

    So... NO, the customer is not only not always right... but frequently wrong, if not always.

    I write for myself now. And I'm a damn good client. lol

    See ya...
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    • Profile picture of the author Angela Kambarian
      Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

      This is a great thread.
      That's what people used to say about my threads when I
      was a member of the "notorious" Fortin Board..

      Anyway...I have noticed that quite often clients ask you to
      "re-write" their copy. Beware!! I think this is a trick.
      And it works like a charm...

      Let me explain.

      They will categorize the project as an editing job.
      It means that you should charge less. The problem is, in
      most cases you have to rewrite the whole copy, especially
      if it looks terrible. More often than not it DOES look terrible.
      But for "editing" you will get less money.
      Understand the trick??

      Oh, boy...It's never been easy to be a marketer or a copywriter.
      Looks like there is a stigma associated with marketing professionals.
      Besides, most business professionals realize that marketing is
      competitive, it is a tough business and it is full of
      desperate freelance consultants, willing to toil for peanuts.
      That's why so many clients get away with "murder".

      They want you to do all the hard work but
      pay significantly less. Be careful, guys! Never fall for this
      trick. I mean...if you are not utterly desperate.
      (Hey, Noobs! Are you with me??)

      Here is the solution: Always stick to your guns!
      If you demand respect and good pay for your hard work,
      you will weather the storm and come out on top.
      In the long run, it will have a ripple affect and empower ALL the
      marketers across the board. We are all in the same boat!
      Let's make sure that it gets to its destination safely.

      Regards,
      A
      Signature

      Copywriter & Marketing Consultant
      www.kambarian.com

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      • Profile picture of the author Collette
        Originally Posted by Angela Kambarian View Post


        ...Here is the solution: Always stick to your guns!
        If you demand respect and good pay for your hard work,
        you will weather the storm and come out on top.
        In the long run, it will have a ripple affect and empower ALL the
        marketers across the board. We are all in the same boat!
        Let's make sure that it gets to its destination safely.

        Regards,
        A
        More effective would be to let the quality of your work speak for you.

        You cannot receive respect by simply 'demanding' it from others. Respect is given; not taken. You receive respect when you deserve it, give it to others, and give it to yourself.

        All clients do not suck. In fact, MOST clients do not suck. If you truly feel that they do, then the only client you have should be yourself.

        Most clients are not out to 'trick' you, they're not looking to 'get away with murder'. They're simply doing what everyone - including you - are doing: looking to get the best deal for their investment of time and money. Beginning a client relationship with the attitude that you are dealing with an enemy who is just waiting to strike, is a sure-fire way to ensure that the relationship is doomed from the start.

        Most prospects you will encounter are woefully uneducated. This is true at ALL levels of business. There are an astonishing number of people running million-dollar businesses who have absolutely no clue about basic marketing. Of course, that ignorance extends to copywriting. Because of this, a prospect who believes a 'simple re-write' is all that is needed, is usually a prospect who is uneducated. It is your job - as a professional - to educate your prospect before they become your client.

        As a professional, you will certainly encounter difficult prospects. And as a professional, you have the choice of deciding whether or not to take on a prospect who you know will be a difficult client.

        Free will in action. It's a lovely thing.

        Being a service provider (of any sort) requires you to market yourself to people. Beginning that marketing association with the belief that you are always right and the prospect is always wrong, will guarantee you a mediocre career filled with painful frustration.

        If you want to be a service provider, but you don't like dealing with people, or your ego cannot take being questioned or challenged - you're in the wrong business.
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  • Profile picture of the author DavidO
    Of course you're absolutely right, but the exception does not disprove the rule. The occasional neurotic who's impossible to live with doesn't mean that your mantra should not be "the customer is always right".
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