copywriting competition

41 replies
I thought it might be fun to hold a copywriting competition.

let's say you had a product, that could be niched and bundled for a number of industries.

and you got 10 or more copywriters to go head to head, create an offer, a plain text sales page (only font tags and order link allowed) and a quick info product add-on to the main product and go for ROI.

so not only would it be copywriting competition, but keyword choice and ad spend.

What sort of incentive model (monetary) other than just winning could work?

Could it work? Would any copywriters participate? If they thought the product could sell and they would get paid would they do it?

That sounds like one of the funnest types of competitions I could think of.
#competition #copywriting
  • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
    You might attract a lot of copywriters, but I suspect none that you would actually want to hire.

    Copywriters who know how to write copy that converts do not normally go for nonpaying gimmicks like this.
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  • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
    yes that is probably true...but actually I would make it aim to be a paid gig with opportunity to make as much or more than any regular writing gig. obviously I know their time is valuable and no gimmick would fool them to working for free...but if I could make it potentially as lucrative as a decent writing gig maybe it could be interesting enough to lure a few of the big shots. like a 7 day challenge or something. also if I had the cash, maybe I could have a $5,000 reward. would that do anything to perk their interest?
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
    No, you are missing my point.

    High-octane copywriters will not write for you on spec.

    They either get paid by you or they are not going to write for you.

    Running a contest like this *may* bring out contestants, but not of the caliber you are looking for.
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  • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
    yes. I see. that is sort of the enigma of copywriters and copywriting. it seems many can write outstanding copy for other people's products, but less often for their own products or one that they have a vested interest in. it is hard being a product developer and copywriter...
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    • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
      yes. I see. that is sort of the enigma of copywriters and copywriting. it seems many can write outstanding copy for other people's products, but less often for their own products or one that they have a vested interest in.
      I don't understand your idea at all or why you think good copywriters would benefit.

      In your proposal, in what way would it involve people writing for "their own products"?

      And on a more fundamental question, why do you think copywriters are starved for "fun"? This is not to shoot down your idea but rather intended to get you thinking it through.

      Marcia Yudkin
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    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Originally Posted by jessegilbert View Post

      yes. I see. that is sort of the enigma of copywriters and copywriting. it seems many can write outstanding copy for other people's products, but less often for their own products or one that they have a vested interest in. it is hard being a product developer and copywriter...
      I think the point is being missed again.

      Successful copywriters won't enter a contest like this for a CHANCE to get paid. They pick up the proverbial pen ONCE they're paid.

      So unless you wanted to pay every entrant, this type of model would likely attract only aspiring copywriters.

      That said, you COULD potentially attract a diamond in the rough who would blow away your expectations. But the odds of that vs. poorly thought out, poorly researched, half-assed work? Pretty rare. It COULD happen. Not very likely though.

      So it's not that they're not invested. They're not being paid. Period.

      A successful copywriter is only going to work on stuff they know they're getting (eventually) paid for. An aspiring copywriter may or may not throw their hat in the ring for a contest such as this, but it's anyone's guess as to whether that copy would make sales.
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  • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
    Yes. I remain objective about the idea, as I've found objectivity is the only possible way to improvement and eventual success.

    The reason I thought of it is because my product has many possible niches so I like the idea of having maybe 10 or more copywriters writing different sales letters of their own initiative, because honestly, I don't know the best way to go about the market segmenting...And perhaps I could find a way to make it worthwhile, such as percentage of sales and a substantial prize for first place.

    And I do know that even unproven or unknown copywriters are capable of producing excellent sales copy on occasion, so they would have the chance to beat the best, right out of the gates, early in their career.

    While copywriters may tend to be a bit recluse when compared to some other professions, it is also possible that they want to participate in something as a group, other than conferences.

    If could attract, nay seduce a few of the top copywriters, and just 2 or 3 signed up and let their name be part of the promotion for the event...then I could potentially enlist a dozen or so, and realize my goal of having a team of the best in the world dreaming up inventive sales schemes of their own initiative, and making my product a massive success, on a scale probably not possible with simply one sales letter.

    The model would be such that they get a wordpress login and can write the sales page and the deliverable (download page) and bundle a full version of my product. It might also be possible that they tell my coder a specific plugin to create for their version, because that is the model of my software, to be flexible to accommodate different market segments of writers.

    Who would do the advertising spend, I don't know, but I think perhaps the copywriter would also be best suited to choose the specific keywords and the max CPC or locations for banner ads.

    Copywriters in my experience are fun and interesting people and also very independent... Copywriting is sort of off the beaten path of run of the mill professions, and many of them, like me, may not be classically educated in the university degree level systems (or didn't pursue traditional career paths), because they know the bottom dollar on the markeplace as far as earning potentials go;

    As far as I know there is not too much support in the way of 'Associations' and what not.

    And they (copywriters) also sometimes have egos, a real sense of competition that may be hard to express directly (when compared to a profession like, say, professional athlete).

    There is the side of the ego that says wtf is this, I'd never do this, I'm a proven, top-flight, 'high class' and I only do work when I'm paid up front...then there is the other side that might say 'hmmm...all other things being equal, if I could take one pretty good product with appeal to a wide market, pick my segment/niche, and write a letter for it, how badly could I beat so and so'...dollar for dollar, like a prize fighter in a tournament.

    Would I pick the best market segment, capable of returning the most revenue?

    Could my ego handle it, if a copywriter who charges $299 for a salesletter outperforms my $2500 dollar level rates?

    It is largely subjective of course and very hard to measure. But perhaps this would be the most accurate way, if rules for a contest were well thought out and it was designed to produce some measurable metric.

    Maybe it could even be fun, and possibly more lucrative than some of the paid gigs they are currently doing. Fun enough that they push clients aside, and make room for the big tournament!
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    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Originally Posted by jessegilbert View Post

      Yes. I remain objective about the idea, as I've found objectivity is the only possible way to improvement and eventual success.

      The reason I thought of it is because my product has many possible niches so I like the idea of having maybe 10 or more copywriters writing different sales letters of their own initiative, because honestly, I don't know the best way to go about the market segmenting...And perhaps I could find a way to make it worthwhile, such as percentage of sales and a substantial prize for first place.

      And I do know that even unproven or unknown copywriters are capable of producing excellent sales copy on occasion, so they would have the chance to beat the best, right out of the gates, early in their career.

      While copywriters may tend to be a bit recluse when compared to some other professions, it is also possible that they want to participate in something as a group, other than conferences.

      If could attract, nay seduce a few of the top copywriters, and just 2 or 3 signed up and let their name be part of the promotion for the event...then I could potentially enlist a dozen or so, and realize my goal of having a team of the best in the world dreaming up inventive sales schemes of their own initiative, and making my product a massive success, on a scale probably not possible with simply one sales letter.

      The model would be such that they get a wordpress login and can write the sales page and the deliverable (download page) and bundle a full version of my product. It might also be possible that they tell my coder a specific plugin to create for their version, because that is the model of my software, to be flexible to accommodate different market segments of writers.

      Who would do the advertising spend, I don't know, but I think perhaps the copywriter would also be best suited to choose the specific keywords and the max CPC or locations for banner ads.

      Copywriters in my experience are fun and interesting people and also very independent... Copywriting is sort of off the beaten path of run of the mill professions, and many of them, like me, may not be classically educated in the university degree level systems (or didn't pursue traditional career paths), because they know the bottom dollar on the markeplace as far as earning potentials go;

      As far as I know there is not too much support in the way of 'Associations' and what not.

      And they (copywriters) also sometimes have egos, a real sense of competition that may be hard to express directly (when compared to a profession like, say, professional athlete).

      There is the side of the ego that says wtf is this, I'd never do this, I'm a proven, top-flight, 'high class' and I only do work when I'm paid up front...then there is the other side that might say 'hmmm...all other things being equal, if I could take one pretty good product with appeal to a wide market, pick my segment/niche, and write a letter for it, how badly could I beat so and so'...dollar for dollar, like a prize fighter in a tournament.

      Would I pick the best market segment, capable of returning the most revenue?

      Could my ego handle it, if joe copywriter who charges $299 for a salesletter outperforms my $2500 dollar level rates?

      It is largely subjective of course and very hard to measure. But perhaps this would be the most accurate way, if rules for a contest were well thought out and it was designed to produce some measurable metric.

      Maybe it could even be fun, and possibly more lucrative than some of the paid gigs they are currently doing. Fun enough that they push clients aside, and make room for the big tournament!
      Meh. If Joe Copywriter who charges $299 for a sales letter outperforms something I write , 1) Go Joe with your bad self, and 2) I don't see how this affects my ego - if I'm charging $2500 I'm still making about 10 times as much unless we're talking backend. And even then - still plenty of room for all of us in this little pond.

      Maybe others' egos are that driven to compete. I compete with myself.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tim R
      Originally Posted by jessegilbert View Post

      If could attract, nay seduce a few of the top copywriters, and just 2 or 3 signed up and let their name be part of the promotion for the event...then I could potentially enlist a dozen or so, and realize my goal of having a team of the best in the world dreaming up inventive sales schemes of their own initiative, and making my product a massive success, on a scale probably not possible with simply one sales letter.
      You're living in a fantasy land if you think this is going to appeal to top copywriters in any way whatsoever.

      You seem to think $2500 is the fee for the best of the best. Add another zero to that and you're still not guaranteed to pique their interest.

      There's also the question of whether or not your product has the potential to strike it big to make the backend payments worth spending time on this.

      Personally, I don't see the appeal in your product as it sounds like nothing more than a Thesaurus with extra words. It's not meeting a need that I already have, and I suspect most writers will feel the same.
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  • Profile picture of the author RogozRazvan
    While I understand your point (and I've provided you a critique of your copy), I must agree with the others.

    Why?

    On one side, you want to minimize the risk. You want to get as many submissions as possible and pay only for the winning one. Something like 99 Designs.

    On the other hand, copywriting is not as simple as submitting a spec. On 99 Designs it works because the concept itself can take a few minutes to create but writing copy involves far more effort put.

    Beating a control in such a manner is used in some industries but it is in a completely different league. Think $25.000 per copy plus royalties PLUS the pride of writing for that client.

    If you were Agora or Boardroom, then a chance to beat a control would appeal to most copywriters. However, for a low ticket product, it doesn't really make sense for several reasons.

    1) You would need to test every single copy with enough traffic to determine who is the winner.

    2) You would need to have an incentive big enough to make up for the risk of investing time without any ROI.

    As I've mentioned above - if Agora came and asked John Carlton and Makepeace to write a control for one of their products that will be mailed to 5.000.000 customers, there is an appeal in doing this - either to prove something (who is the best), either because of the huge potential.

    Otherwise, a $1500 project that is actually paid will be superior to a $2500 or $5000 project that is a possibility.
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  • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
    ok. you're correct on price. $25,000 is probably what is needed to pique the interest of a big copywriter. I don't know, I haven't hired one at that price and I did grossly underestimate the rates...I wasn't thinking but on second thought yes of course probably up to $100k they charge.

    Look, I may look newbie, but I'm not. I could tell you stories about my copy and who has said it was the bomb, and I could shut basically any copywriter up who says I'm amateur or incapable of killer copy, but I can't do that and take credit for writing and product development that I have done 100%, because I was writing under ghostwriting contract.

    So, regardless of what you think of the product currently, I believe it is doable to have info products and software editions or plugins bundled in and I'm competent to make it a solid value proposition to a number of markets and can deliver a real potential residual moneymaker to the copywriter who knows what they are doing. There could be rebill features possible, that is up to the copywriter to decide.

    The problem I have as product developer and copywrtiter is that it is harder to remain objective about a product that you yourself have conceived of. We all know this, because if someone like Gary Halbert could write such good copy for his own products and wanted unending money, he'd simply produce them 1 by 1 in new markets and never waste his time writing for clients (unless he just wanted to do it for fun).

    Copywriters would have to think independently on the product offer and would have leeway, along with access to a coding team to implement any related software products. You can remain skeptical, and I will remain objective. The point is to bring fantasy to reality via research and writing...

    A few questions:

    1. Tim, what is the need you already have that is not being met?

    2. If professional translation services with a focus on sales for 20 languages in a matter of weeks where built in, so that any product could be reviewed, tested, and get testimonials in foreign languages and a buzz generated in over 20 countries as part of a deal, would that pique your interest? What if, as part of 1 product, you could have access to an association of about 30,000 professional translators, in an organized and predictable fashion, so that whatever product or product line you are promoting, can reach these markets for you or your client at lightning speed.

    I my experience, the online english markets are heavily competitive for a number of products, and ROI in spanish speaking countries could be much higher for many products (a number of countries, w/2.5 billion potential customers?)...not to mention Europe and Asia...with languages like german, italian, hebrew, french maybe japanese, etc...

    3. What if advertising and software products would be available on all 3 platforms (desktop, web, mobile) and compatible with all types of operating systems (windows, mac, open source)

    If these services were built in, giving the copywriter the potential to get sales in a number of countries, as well as potentially a large number of high paying clients from these markets where part of the offer, might that provide a little more incentive?

    Lastly just to mention: Tim, my product is not just another thesaurus. First of all, it gives you the ability to search 10 words at 1 time and delivers 20x the result for each word, potentially being 200x faster than most to help the writer find the right words. And that is just for starters...It is also a brainstorming tool to help people who are short of ideas in almost any endeavor. With the writing for sales templates that could be a part of it after working with a number of copywriters, this could develop into the type of tool to annihalate any competition in the sales software market.

    2. It has multi-lingual capabilities built in for the translator, multi lingual writer and ESL student.

    3. Many features or customized offers can be conceived of by the sales person and created by coders with an individual 'plugins' type model to produce things like language games (which I know can benefit the learning process of students and reach large segments of the education market), or developed for specific writer's markets (song writers etc...rhyme or lyrics plugins and stats on what has sold big in the music market)

    From conniving to convincing, I will hammer away at your objections, one by one, practically force you to partake (because that's what we all know a little determination and great copy is capable of), and also develop my writing software to help you, the copywriter, develop as a tool for yourself to use in your own work, that will make your job easier and more profitable.

    With the software you will be helping to create, you will forming a new tool to hammer away at objections any customers of your clients might have and provide sales materials in a number of languages, in the amount of time that could potentially stun the competition and annihilate them...Giving your client the funds for practically unlimited scalability on the global market.

    A part of my market is professional sales copy writers as well as the individual do it yourself business owner and advertiser. If I work with a number of copywriters, during the process, I can get the feedback needed to produce the ultimate software tool for the writing for sales market so that you yourself will be creating the very favorite software you will start to use in your future work.

    So, what would also be part of the deal, all the copywriters who participated will have a quality software product to promote to the business market, that they had a hand in creating, are intimately familiar with, one with potentially heavy rebill features, on the level that would get the attention of, perhaps even greats like Dan Kennedy, something that he would buy, for his business and say, flat out, this is by far the best writing software and business model ever created.
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Jesse, is this a minimum viable product?

      A minimum viable product is one which is in the hands of buyers
      who have given you feedback as what they want in the product,
      you've gone away and included it and they have told you what they would pay for it.

      That's still no guarantee of success because
      the rest of the market may be cold to it.

      Yesterday I was talking to a software developer who got $18,000
      in pre-made sales. Nobody else wanted it so he refunded the $18,000.

      Don't think this was from a person new to business, because he isn't.

      I ask again, do you have a minimum viable product based on the above criteria?

      Best,
      Doctor E. Vile
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    • Profile picture of the author Tim R
      Originally Posted by jessegilbert View Post

      Lastly just to mention: Tim, my product is not just another thesaurus. First of all, it gives you the ability to search 10 words at 1 time and delivers 20x the result for each word, potentially being 200x faster than most to help the writer find the right words. And that is just for starters...It is also a brainstorming tool to help people who are short of ideas in almost any endeavor. With the writing for sales templates that could be a part of it after working with a number of copywriters, this could develop into the type of tool to annihalate any competition in the sales software market.
      Why would I want to search for synonyms for 10 words at a time? The benefits that you focus on in your sales pages are addressing problems that don't exist for any writers that I know of.

      You're talking about not having to wait for page loading times. How long do you think it takes for results to come up in an online thesaurus? It's instant.

      Why do I need more synonyms? All the words I could need are in the thesaurus. Do you have secret words available that aren't in the thesaurus? All it makes me think is I'm going to actually waste time by having to wade through more words that aren't as relevant.

      If you're claiming that your thesaurus can help you write more powerful sales copy it makes me think you don't really understand what constitutes good copy. Simplicity trumps obscure words every time. I don't see any benefit in what you're offering at all.

      I'm guessing English is not your first language and maybe that's why it's hard for you to communicate what you're trying to say, but at the moment it's all over the place. If you can't say what you're offering and what it'll do for me in a sentence or two, you've got a big problem.

      You've got paragraphs in this thread about what it is and who it's for and I'm confused. Is it for writers? Translators? It's a thesaurus, translator, sales copy tool, article spinner etc. You're trying to be all things to all people and it comes across as a mess.

      Simplify what you're offering. Get really clear on what the top few benefits are. Talk to people you think are your market and dig really deep with your questions. I can tell you right now, that I'm in what you think is your market and I would have zero interest in using this as a free product.

      In terms of the copywriting competition, you say you want to remain objective. Everyone on the thread has told you it's not going to work the way you think it will, so if you're being objective you'll take that advice on board and stop kidding yourself that you'll get the best copywriters in the world clamoring to write for you.
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      • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
        Originally Posted by Tim R View Post

        Why would I want to search for synonyms for 10 words at a time? The benefits that you focus on in your sales pages are addressing problems that don't exist for any writers that I know of.

        You're talking about not having to wait for page loading times. How long do you think it takes for results to come up in an online thesaurus? It's instant.

        Why do I need more synonyms? All the words I could need are in the thesaurus. Do you have secret words available that aren't in the thesaurus? All it makes me think is I'm going to actually waste time by having to wade through more words that aren't as relevant.

        If you're claiming that your thesaurus can help you write more powerful sales copy it makes me think you don't really understand what constitutes good copy. Simplicity trumps obscure words every time. I don't see any benefit in what you're offering at all.

        I'm guessing English is not your first language and maybe that's why it's hard for you to communicate what you're trying to say, but at the moment it's all over the place. If you can't say what you're offering and what it'll do for me in a sentence or two, you've got a big problem.

        You've got paragraphs in this thread about what it is and who it's for and I'm confused. Is it for writers? Translators? It's a thesaurus, translator, sales copy tool, article spinner etc. You're trying to be all things to all people and it comes across as a mess.

        Simplify what you're offering. Get really clear on what the top few benefits are. Talk to people you think are your market and dig really deep with your questions. I can tell you right now, that I'm in what you think is your market and I would have zero interest in using this as a free product.

        In terms of the copywriting competition, you say you want to remain objective. Everyone on the thread has told you it's not going to work the way you think it will, so if you're being objective you'll take that advice on board and stop kidding yourself that you'll get the best copywriters in the world clamoring to write for you.
        I appreciate your skepticism. Honestly.

        For the copywriting market. That is only one segment. There can be a specific edition, for the copywriter, that they can use. I don't know all about copywriting, but I do know some of the annoyances that come up from time to time when dealing with software and getting it to the web and making sales.

        Maybe these problems aren't for you personally, because you know it all already and have your favorite tools, and will never add to them. But there are a lot of copywriters and a lot of things that need selling online, and a wide variety of tools is useful for the toolkit, some better than others...

        It is possible to make software specifically for the copywriter, and not just using synonyms but having sales principles woven in. There are some on the market, some damn good ones even...but the market is big enough and the demand high enough that I'm not that worried that I can produce something with pure ROI proposition.

        That's the one advantage of being neither pure copywriter nor pure software developer...you know the two...software development is way different from simple writing...

        Maybe not for you, but for some copywriter or even a lot of them...

        As for getting good copywriters to work for me...the best in the world probably wont. But some damn good ones might...if I put my proposition in front of them. You'd have to read it to understand...and I'm not sure I'm ready to put it out there yet.
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  • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
    I'm working very hard to determine that. I think it very well could be a minimum viable product. I've had very few buyers, but quality buyers, with decades of experience in their profession who have told me, yes, every person in this sector needs your product and it has been long awaited. It is in a more specific niche...I have testimonials on the site from a number of people, but not all of them were buyers. So I know there is at least one, possibly more segments where my product can do some real sales. Just for competitive intelligence sakes, I will not tell which specific market it was, could be one of any of the 50 or so I have considered...but either way I do believe it is possible to have a minimum viable product for multiple market segments.
    Thanks,
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Originally Posted by jessegilbert View Post

      I'm working very hard to determine that. I think it very well could be a minimum viable product. I've had very few buyers, but quality buyers, with decades of experience in their profession who have told me, yes, every person in this sector needs your product and it has been long awaited.
      Until people put money down and buy it,
      in big enough numbers, then you don't have a bare minimum viable product.

      Like the real world example I gave you, buyers paid $18,000
      to have the software built out to their specs.

      Most would think that would be a success.

      It wasn't because it was only those who wanted it.

      There was no point going further so he refunded their money.

      So take it in stages.

      Get in the hands of most likely users and ask them to try it out,
      feedback and collaborate to make it better.

      Ask them what real day-to-day problems it would solve.

      Go deep into this problem of theirs, the money costs and mental costs
      not having this has on them.

      Ask what they are prepared to pay to have this problem fixed.

      Next step is to see if their is a strong indicator of pain and are
      willing to pay for it to be improved.

      Get the money and use it to improve on it.

      If you can't get money for the improvement of it,
      then you don't go to the next stage which is go to that same market
      on a deeper level.

      You can go to other groups and go through the same step.

      Never go to step 2 until you get money from a beta group
      to pay for the improvement of it.

      This is all about tapping into pre-existing demand, if there is any.

      That's your job to go out and test for it.

      Best,
      Doctor E. Vile
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      • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
        From conniving to convincing, I will hammer away at your objections, one by one, practically force you to partake (because that's what we all know a little determination and great copy is capable of), and also develop my writing software to help you, the copywriter, develop as a tool for yourself to use in your own work, that will make your job easier and more profitable.
        Wow, this is incredibly delusionary.

        You cannot hammer away at objections and get someone to want something that they do not want!

        You can only hammer away at objections and get people to want something that they do want.

        In this group, which may have perfect prospects for you, it doesn't look like you've been able to rustle up any enthusiasm along the lines of "Yes, this sounds like something I have always wanted to do (or have)."

        You seem to think that selling consists of shouting, "Hey, you do want this! You DO WANT THIS!"

        Sorry, human psychology doesn't work that way.

        And saying out loud that you are going to "force" us to get interested in your ideas is even worse.

        Please take a time out and a deep breath.

        We may actually be saving you from a tremendous waste of time and energy.

        Marcia Yudkin
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        • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
          Get in the hands of most likely users and ask them to try it out,
          feedback and collaborate to make it better.

          Ask them what real day-to-day problems it would solve.
          I don't agree with this approach.

          If they don't already feel a day-to-day problem for which they would like a solution, then you don't have a viable starting point for the product (or competition idea).

          You need to be able to connect with some problem the target market already feels. So a better test is writing your best marketing copy for the problem and seeing if it generates excitement and people begging to try out the product. If not, there is no need and you don't have a chance.

          Yes, there are exceptions like the Sony Walkman, where people didn't know they had a want until they actually saw the real product, but I don't think we're in that territory here.

          I was recently offered a free trial of a product like Jesse's - and it may have been him asking me (I deleted the PM) - and I said no. It wasn't worth my time to try it out because I already have all the word-finding tools I already need. Maybe a more novice copywriter would jump at the chance to try it out. But if that isn't working either, that's a sign to either 1)quit or 2)dig deeper to understand how to connect with what people like us really do want.

          Starting with the product is the most common approach, but it is backwards, and that's one reason why product development so often fails. There's no need and no want at play.

          Marcia Yudkin
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          Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
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  • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
    ok. thank you Mr.Mack Aka Dr. E. Vile...I really appreciate your insight.

    I have beta tested it, extensively. and I have put it in the hands of hundreds of users. and I have developed it based on feedback (though not all suggested features are implemented). Believe me, I know a little about the processes you have spoken of, and it is hard work that requires attention to minute detail and really listening to what the prospective market says...I'm there...I'm doing it...What I'm saying is, it is based in reality of what pain the writer feels and what problems need solving...

    I know how to do research and development, to some extent, and people in the real world marketplace (freelancers) know that what I offer can provide a real advantage to increase their profits and make their life easier. Maybe they won't buy currently, but as the concept forms then yeah...it will be helpful to them...and affordable...pure ROI proposition...

    Marcia, I didn't mean to be rude, and sometimes I do get excited because I am the developer and it is hard to be objective about something you produced...My point is: I basically know I can provide a tool that gives a value proposition to the writer based on the current market. Even you, the copywriter...At this point I can make my software do something, for you specifically, customized if needed...for your copywriting needs, to help you in some way...

    I have the coders to implement your suggestions probably in days and I know a lot about the current market...(but admittedly not all).

    I've posted asking copywriters to review the actual product...but my posts are deleted which is fine...I won't persist with trying to get actual product feedback here.

    As for the copywriter's competition, I'm still interested and formulating something that may appeal to at least a few top copywriters as well as be 100% open to complete newbies (and all levels between the two) who want to try their hand at something that could be fun, even career making...a real challenge...that also makes them ask questions about their ethical standpoint on marketing and other broader issues...and at the same time... appeals to their desire for pure profits per hour spent writing...

    It may be unbelievable at this point, but who knows...I won't post any details here...because self promotion is frowned upon at the Warrior forum and I want to 'play within the rules'...so maybe... just to learn more about the copywriters competition I have in mind...you would have to l become so intrigued...that you reach out, independently...and even if you were interested...you might have to actually pay a substantial sum to enter the competition. Not saying yes, not saying no...it might be free...haven't decided yet...

    It's just an idea...not marketing anything...not selling anything, here at the warrior forum...or self promoting...just a thought...for you...the writer...looking for a real opportunity...to compete...and possibley make more than your current clients pay you...you don't know the full details yet...so don't think it is simply what I've mentioned above...

    I'll leave it at that...for now...because I don't want to self promote...or violate any of the rules...you get the picture...
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    What exactly does your thesaurus software do that my (free) web-based version can't?

    With a few extra key strokes, I've got 10 words looked up at the same time too. However, there's only so much info my brain can actually take in at one time - most of the time I'm looking up a max of 3-4 words in different tabs.

    Plus there's my idiom dictionary (also free), my rhyming dictionary (also free), my word finder (are you picking up on free yet?), and a few other tools in my arsenal.

    You keep saying you know a thing or two about copywriting but for someone so skilled, you seem to have no clue how to persuade kindred spirits, which I find fascinating.

    Self-promotion is allowed here - look at your freakin' signature, dude. It's just hijacking the forum with repeated requests for people to review your product, when there is in fact a review forum for that purpose, is a little aggravating.

    I have yet to see you really provide value here or connect with any of your fellow copywriters. Because if you built genuine connections, maybe you'd get better, more realistic answers to your questions instead of repeatedly hitting a brick wall.

    EDITED TO ADD:
    And let me be clear, I say this as a copywriter who has entered (and even won a few) contests. I enter something I'm passionate about, something that provides a great opportunity (a believable one with someone who has instant credibility), or something I can bang out super quickly because it's a market I know well.

    One of my winning contest submissions was written in 20 minutes.

    A control for an untested piece of software? That's gonna take a lot more. No thanks.
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    • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
      signatures are not showing up in my browser. not sure why. and I was not aware that the link was active. I'm not really here to promote or get sales (just a side benefit), just to develop a better offer...
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    • Profile picture of the author gemmom24
      I have to agree with most posts, Jessie. I'm a seasoned copywriter and have worked for some big-name ad agencies -- and received quite a few awards along the way. I've also written articles for a national women's magazine. Not bragging, just saying I've written for many venues and I can't see a need for your product. Maybe there's something we're missing. Roget's is most writers' bible and I can find that online. Free. What does your product offer that Roget's doesn't? If I'm looking for a replacement for a particular word, I don't want 10 pages searching another bunch of words. Nor do I need more than 5-6 relevant synonyms in my word search. As far as hiring a copywriter on spec, good luck. Ad agencies may do that to snag a big (emphasis on BIG) account, but I doubt most experienced freelancers would be up for that gig. As the creator of your product and an award-winning ghostwriter, you should be able to promote your software better than any outsider could. Good copywriters can distance themselves from a product and look at it from your target market's viewpoint -- whether it's your own product/service or someone else's. The fact that no one on this board (so far) thinks there's a need for your product should tell you something. I'm not trying to be harsh. But you are getting great (free!) advice from many writing professionals on this board. Heed it, rework your product and then come back.
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  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    Originally Posted by jessegilbert View Post

    I thought it might be fun to hold a copywriting competition.

    let's say you had a product, that could be niched and bundled for a number of industries.

    and you got 10 or more copywriters to go head to head, create an offer, a plain text sales page (only font tags and order link allowed) and a quick info product add-on to the main product and go for ROI.

    so not only would it be copywriting competition, but keyword choice and ad spend.

    What sort of incentive model (monetary) other than just winning could work?

    Could it work? Would any copywriters participate? If they thought the product could sell and they would get paid would they do it?

    That sounds like one of the funnest types of competitions I could think of.
    The way I see it, I participate in copywriting contests all the time. I write stuff and it either makes a lot of money or it doesn't. I do my best to win, and most of the time, I do. I win cash rewards. I use them to buy stuff. No blue ribbons yet, but who gives a rip?

    Why would I waste with pretend copywriting "contests" when I can test my skills in the real world and play for real money?
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    • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
      Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post

      The way I see it, I participate in copywriting contests all the time. I write stuff and it either makes a lot of money or it doesn't. I do my best to win, and most of the time, I do. I win cash rewards. I use them to buy stuff. No blue ribbons yet, but who gives a rip?

      Why would I want to my time with pretend copywriting "contests" when I can test my skills in the real world and play for real money?
      Well you're talkin'. New people are chiming in. There is intrigue. You are asking questions... There may something here...and perhaps that 'annoying link in my sig'...my product...is just the tip of an iceberg...on how much I will annoy you...when you read more...of my writing...

      Or perhaps there is a massive opportunity...a real opportunity...for more than your typical writing contests...to load your pockets...with serious cash...even pure diamonds...and other benefits...that your typical everyday copywriter... rarely gets a chance at...

      Imagine for a second...if Gary Halbert...and Bill Gates...where combined...into one person...and he was your friend...and he called you by your first name...even used foul language occasionally...in your presence...and you were part of a team...of copywriters competing against each other...and working with direct marketers...and translators...and software developers...sitting at a seaside resort...in a little town...that few people know of...and all the competition was blocked out...using technology...because we are basically off the radar...No surveillance...could penetrate...our marketing plans...

      And we were in an all out war for cash...and market share... and there was an element of adventure...even danger...

      Might that type of 'copywriting competition' appeal to you a bit more?
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      • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
        Originally Posted by jessegilbert View Post

        Imagine for a second...if Gary Halbert...and Bill Gates...where combined...into one person...and he was your friend...and he called you by your first name...even used foul language occasionally...in your presence...and you were part of a team...of copywriters competing against each other...and working with direct marketers...and translators...and software developers...sitting at a seaside resort...in a little town...that few people know of...and all the competition was blocked out...using technology...because we are basically off the radar...No surveillance...could penetrate...our marketing plans...
        Are you Gary Halbert and Bill Gates rolled into one?

        If not, that is where your disconnect is. You don't get to pretend at this level. You either have credibility and the positive attention that comes with it... or you don't.

        You could buy some of that attention with massive cash guarantees, but if you had that you probably wouldn't be dreaming up such stunts.
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      • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
        Originally Posted by jessegilbert View Post

        Well you're talkin'. New people are chiming in. There is intrigue. You are asking questions... There may something here...and perhaps that 'annoying link in my sig'...my product...is just the tip of an iceberg...on how much I will annoy you...when you read more...of my writing...

        Or perhaps there is a massive opportunity...a real opportunity...for more than your typical writing contests...to load your pockets...with serious cash...even pure diamonds...and other benefits...that your typical everyday copywriter... rarely gets a chance at...

        Imagine for a second...if Gary Halbert...and Bill Gates...where combined...into one person...and he was your friend...and he called you by your first name...even used foul language occasionally...in your presence...and you were part of a team...of copywriters competing against each other...and working with direct marketers...and translators...and software developers...sitting at a seaside resort...in a little town...that few people know of...and all the competition was blocked out...using technology...because we are basically off the radar...No surveillance...could penetrate...our marketing plans...

        And we were in an all out war for cash...and market share... and there was an element of adventure...even danger...

        Might that type of 'copywriting competition' appeal to you a bit more?
        Oh yay, another bumbling narcissist has thrown their hat into the ring at the WF copywriting forum.

        First off, you're right. People ARE talkin '...but it ain't intrigue. Train wrecks draw crowds too.

        Second, this post ^ reads like a 3am, mescaline inspired stream-of-consciousness rant where you spill all the lego blocks of your conversation onto the floor and leave the sober people in the room to assemble them into something resembling a coherent thought.

        We have our own contest here in the copywriting forum. Every time another wannabe arrives on the scene, we agree to award cookies to the first one who can make it more than 2 months.

        I see no cookies in your future.
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  • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
    I don't really like cookies.

    And I don't particularly like forums...but this one has been beneficial so I think I'll stick around a bit...And see if I can stuff a few more diamonds in my satchel, before moving on to the bigger plan, phase 2.

    CopyProfit
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Jesse,

      Here's the deal: Unless you're putting up cash for every copywriter who enters your contest -- a guaranteed, up front payment -- then you're not going to get top-notch copywriters entering your contest. Not unless they're willing to spend a few hours to pull together something quick in the hopes of winning the top prize.

      Top-notch copywriters get 4-5 figures plus royalties per project from paying clients. They get at least half of their monies up front. In return, they spend dozens of hours (a typical project for me is at least a 40 hour commitment) to ensure they deliver high-quality marketing that has the best possible chance of converting very well for their clients.

      Potential prize money and IOUs don't pay a copywriter's bills. Paying clients do. Every copywriter I've ever met -- and I've met hundreds of them over the last 9+ years -- will choose the paying client over a potential prize every single time. No matter who is running the contest.

      The other piece of the puzzle on Warrior Forum is this. By my recollection, at least 2/3 of the copywriting contests ever run on this board, the contest holder has reneged on paying the promised prize money. Their "contest" turned out to be nothing but a scam to get people to write their salesletter for free.

      I'm not saying that you would do this. What I am saying is that the collective view of copywriting contests for many of the members of this board (especially the ones who have been here for years) is understandably very cynical about copywriting contests.

      Food for thought,

      Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
    Believe me, i respect your position.

    I've never been paid 4 or 5 figures, but I have spent hundreds of hours writing sales letters, editing, researching, refining, fonting, formatting, adding order buttons, setting up download pages etc...

    Not to mention, keyword research, ad spends, split test, tracking, finding the best services etc...

    I know how hard it is, and I know how many factors there are behind the science and how hard it is to quantify success accurately and maximize $ for efforts.

    The picture that is taking shape is that the copywriter, especially one who can help with mechanics and logistics potentially brings up to 1/2 the value to any product or promotion. Well, there is the copywriting, the promotion, and the logistics of getting the electronic funds into your account.

    If the copywriter handles the advertising, or you have a team working together to take some of the workload off, then you really have something. Even better if they are all in the same area, a resort area so they can meet and coordinate with the other factors, such as billing and shipping.

    I guess what I'm trying to do, more than hold a competition, is to create a team of software developers and copywriters, to make the foundation of my enterprise copywriting, as much as software development because we know, copywriters and copywriting are what make a business profitable but also smooth technology is very important to get the big cash.

    My goal isn't to get anyone to waste their time and talent so I can bounce out without paying. My goal is to provide a structure where it is possible they can make a comparable sum to their other paying clients, possibly more, while actually taking a lead, sort of like an independent soldier for a company or army, taking initiatives, and going after market segments.

    The winner getting some sort of extra benefit, beyond the money they make for the original agreement.

    I do have a product, one that can probably work for a number of segments or that can be modified. Whatever is needed we can produce at budget comparable to the most popular technologies online today.

    Maybe it wouldn't be beneficial, to either of us. Maybe it is best for me to wait, until the day comes that I have money to hire a bunch of copywriters, and simply pay them the wages. But you all know how bootstrapping is...

    We'd be working on a peer to peer basis, me the software developer and project organizer, the copywriters bringing all of their combined resources to the table.

    Look, the copywriters maybe more proven writers here then me, they can say 'who is your client'...but maybe I've been working on my own companies all this time, that I could do copy, but don't focus on it because I want the big bucks...owning a product, a software product with high ROI.

    On an overall strategy scale, face it, you are hired guns. You cannot form a company and do product creation, or else you would be filthy rich from your skills. (or perhaps that is part of your future plans)

    Perhaps your best opportunity to make some real cash some serious cash, some long term cash, is to take part in a venture where you have an open stake in it. Of course it has to be a good company and a good product, you can't just sell nothing, like some mlm scheme...but I have real technology and ideas are easy to implement with my code team.

    You want the big, big money? More per hour for your copywriting? Something you can put ALL of your skill into, get residuals, maybe be part product owner? Perhaps you need me.

    I don't have the product 100% yet, and it may be difficult to see...but I think it is there, with the right synergy, the copywriter could produce a unique market offer for any segment they had in mind.

    You can call my statement about Gates and Halbert arrogant but neither of them are superhuman. If you took the principles of Microsoft (software development) and Built them around copy, and worked with some good copywriters, 10 of them or so...along with developers and specialists in marketing and re-billing (like kennedy), you would probably have a multi-billion dollar company within a few years...even if today you are an unknown, on a forum.

    I'm not bragging about myself. I have the ideas...and the best brainstorming software...and a product with 100 testimonials...a good team, some serious talent and possibly really, really good connections.

    While I may not have the cash to pay copywriters now, based on the concepts on the market I think I can come with something that delivers ROI and that is massively scalable. And i do have the ambition to scale infinitely, forever, without end...and go into new markets if necessary offline...like exploration. You could get a share in that too, a percentage of other company ventures as a copywriter who puts their own initiative in.

    That's why I threw out the contest to open dialogue, with the copywriters.

    If I do ever have a company, I know I want copywriters. Lots of them. As part of the foundation. Some of the big companies are good, but they fail to go big without the copywriting, and I'm going to kill them, and take all of their market share...because many of them don't know, or badly underestimate YOUR VALUE, or what could be possible with a team of copywriters working with the coders on the product design, to role out new products in speedy fashion and capitalize.

    I'm going to eat them for lunch. We're going to eat them for lunch. Together. At least that's my goal anyways...

    The question is: Are any copywriters also entrepreneurs? Who can put that same skill into a project they have a creative part in? Or are they by nature only hired guns, who can take a salary per project and that's it.

    I know it has to be a solid value proposition to the copywriter for their time. And I do not pretend that this can offer 5 figures. But I think it has the potential to, definitely, maybe more if it works right.

    Don't think Bill Gates is some superhuman. He's good, I admire the dude in some ways... but software development is not beyond the scope of even 'the dumb jock' from high school.

    People often pay more respect to someone who is rich and can pay them immediately, they have credibility. that is human nature.

    What i have in mind is not simply a copywriting job but a mix with entrepreneurship and competition.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Perhaps your best opportunity to make some real cash some serious cash, some long term cash, is to take part in a venture where you have an open stake in it. Of course it has to be a good company and a good product, you can't just sell nothing, like some mlm scheme...but I have real technology and ideas are easy to implement with my code team.

      You want the big, big money? More per hour for your copywriting? Something you can put ALL of your skill into, get residuals, maybe be part product owner? Perhaps you need me!
      I quit reading and just skimmed after that - it's time to stop selling.

      You seem to recognize you can become too sold on your own idea - yet you keep selling yourself on it over and over. We reached the point of over-thinking a while back.

      Gary Halbert has been gone for years but I can guarantee he'd be using the term "shitweasel" by now.

      I'm not bragging about myself.
      Maybe not - but you are at risk of talking this to death.
      Signature
      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

      I'm going to work on being less condescending
      (Condescending means to talk down to people)
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by jessegilbert View Post

      Believe me, i respect your position.

      I've never been paid 4 or 5 figures, but I have spent hundreds of hours writing sales letters, editing, researching, refining, fonting, formatting, adding order buttons, setting up download pages etc...

      Not to mention, keyword research, ad spends, split test, tracking, finding the best services etc...

      I know how hard it is, and I know how many factors there are behind the science and how hard it is to quantify success accurately and maximize $ for efforts.

      The picture that is taking shape is that the copywriter, especially one who can help with mechanics and logistics potentially brings up to 1/2 the value to any product or promotion. Well, there is the copywriting, the promotion, and the logistics of getting the electronic funds into your account.

      If the copywriter handles the advertising, or you have a team working together to take some of the workload off, then you really have something. Even better if they are all in the same area, a resort area so they can meet and coordinate with the other factors, such as billing and shipping.

      I guess what I'm trying to do, more than hold a competition, is to create a team of software developers and copywriters, to make the foundation of my enterprise copywriting, as much as software development because we know, copywriters and copywriting are what make a business profitable but also smooth technology is very important to get the big cash.

      My goal isn't to get anyone to waste their time and talent so I can bounce out without paying. My goal is to provide a structure where it is possible they can make a comparable sum to their other paying clients, possibly more, while actually taking a lead, sort of like an independent soldier for a company or army, taking initiatives, and going after market segments.

      The winner getting some sort of extra benefit, beyond the money they make for the original agreement.

      I do have a product, one that can probably work for a number of segments or that can be modified. Whatever is needed we can produce at budget comparable to the most popular technologies online today.

      Maybe it wouldn't be beneficial, to either of us. Maybe it is best for me to wait, until the day comes that I have money to hire a bunch of copywriters, and simply pay them the wages. But you all know how bootstrapping is...

      We'd be working on a peer to peer basis, me the software developer and project organizer, the copywriters bringing all of their combined resources to the table.

      Look, the copywriters maybe more proven writers here then me, they can say 'who is your client'...but maybe I've been working on my own companies all this time, that I could do copy, but don't focus on it because I want the big bucks...owning a product, a software product with high ROI.

      On an overall strategy scale, face it, you are hired guns. You cannot form a company and do product creation, or else you would be filthy rich from your skills. (or perhaps that is part of your future plans)

      Perhaps your best opportunity to make some real cash some serious cash, some long term cash, is to take part in a venture where you have an open stake in it. Of course it has to be a good company and a good product, you can't just sell nothing, like some mlm scheme...but I have real technology and ideas are easy to implement with my code team.

      You want the big, big money? More per hour for your copywriting? Something you can put ALL of your skill into, get residuals, maybe be part product owner? Perhaps you need me.

      I don't have the product 100% yet, and it may be difficult to see...but I think it is there, with the right synergy, the copywriter could produce a unique market offer for any segment they had in mind.

      You can call my statement about Gates and Halbert arrogant but neither of them are superhuman. If you took the principles of Microsoft (software development) and Built them around copy, and worked with some good copywriters, 10 of them or so...along with developers and specialists in marketing and re-billing (like kennedy), you would probably have a multi-billion dollar company within a few years...even if today you are an unknown, on a forum.

      I'm not bragging about myself. I have the ideas...and the best brainstorming software...and a product with 100 testimonials...a good team, some serious talent and possibly really, really good connections.

      While I may not have the cash to pay copywriters now, based on the concepts on the market I think I can come with something that delivers ROI and that is massively scalable. And i do have the ambition to scale infinitely, forever, without end...and go into new markets if necessary offline...like exploration. You could get a share in that too, a percentage of other company ventures as a copywriter who puts their own initiative in.

      That's why I threw out the contest to open dialogue, with the copywriters.

      If I do ever have a company, I know I want copywriters. Lots of them. As part of the foundation. Some of the big companies are good, but they fail to go big without the copywriting, and I'm going to kill them, and take all of their market share...because many of them don't know, or badly underestimate YOUR VALUE, or what could be possible with a team of copywriters working with the coders on the product design, to role out new products in speedy fashion and capitalize.

      I'm going to eat them for lunch. We're going to eat them for lunch. Together. At least that's my goal anyways...

      The question is: Are any copywriters also entrepreneurs? Who can put that same skill into a project they have a creative part in? Or are they by nature only hired guns, who can take a salary per project and that's it.

      I know it has to be a solid value proposition to the copywriter for their time. And I do not pretend that this can offer 5 figures. But I think it has the potential to, definitely, maybe more if it works right.

      Don't think Bill Gates is some superhuman. He's good, I admire the dude in some ways... but software development is not beyond the scope of even 'the dumb jock' from high school.

      People often pay more respect to someone who is rich and can pay them immediately, they have credibility. that is human nature.

      What i have in mind is not simply a copywriting job but a mix with entrepreneurship and competition.
      It sounds like you have a lot of dreams and aspirations. That's a good thing. But what you don't have right now is a company which is ready to hire a team of copywriters.

      That's okay.

      Every bootstrapping company -- and I've built a number of them myself over the last 20+ years -- starts lean and builds up from there. It's a very honorable thing to do. It also ensures the business owner(s) don't kill the business by overspending when the business doesn't have the sales to support the expenses or debt load.

      Do copywriters have entrepreneurial experience? A lot more of them do than you probably realize.

      In my case, when I owned a massage therapy center for a lot of years. I started it from a $100 budget and grew it into one of the largest ones in the Philadelphia Main Line at the time. But it took time. A ton of time. I spent a lot of years working 110 hours per week to get it to that point. I didn't have a business partner so I had to wear a lot of hats as the business owner. One of those hats was writing all of the offline and online marketing for the business.

      Since then, I've chosen to simplify my life and specialize. I'm not a threat to my clients because I'm not interested in becoming their competition.

      I've helped build a lot of businesses as a marketing consultant and copywriter. Produced millions in sales along the way. But I haven't worked 100 hours in a week in over a decade and I don't miss it. I have more time to spend with my wife, kids, friends, and family. I even have time to pursue a few hobbies too.

      So my advice to you is to forget about competitions, contests, and finding copywriters who want to become your partner. Focus on building your start-up. Write your own marketing when you need to. A LOT of well-known online marketers and business owners did exactly that in their start-up years. They built their business up until they could justify hiring people like me to help them grow it even more.

      If you happen to cross paths with another entrepreneurial person who would be a great business partner, then go for it. If they happen to write copy at a high level or some other highly valuable skill, then that's awesome too.

      But if you want to attract a top-notch person as your business partner, then you need to bring as much or more to the table than they do.

      Otherwise, that top-notch person (who likely gets numerous unsolicited offers like yours every year) will politely decline. Because they can afford to wait for the right opportunity for them to come their way.

      Good luck,

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
        Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

        It sounds like you have a lot of dreams and aspirations. That's a good thing. But what you don't have right now is a company which is ready to hire a team of copywriters.

        That's okay.

        Every bootstrapping company -- and I've built a number of them myself over the last 20+ years -- starts lean and builds up from there. It's a very honorable thing to do. It also ensures the business owner(s) don't kill the business by overspending when the business doesn't have the sales to support the expenses or debt load.

        Do copywriters have entrepreneurial experience? A lot more of them do than you probably realize.

        In my case, when I owned a massage therapy center for a lot of years. I started it from a $100 budget and grew it into one of the largest ones in the Philadelphia Main Line at the time. But it took time. A ton of time. I spent a lot of years working 110 hours per week to get it to that point. I didn't have a business partner so I had to wear a lot of hats as the business owner. One of those hats was writing all of the offline and online marketing for the business.

        Since then, I've chosen to simplify my life and specialize. I'm not a threat to my clients because I'm not interested in becoming their competition.

        I've helped build a lot of businesses as a marketing consultant and copywriter. Produced millions in sales along the way. But I haven't worked 100 hours in a week in over a decade and I don't miss it. I have more time to spend with my wife, kids, friends, and family. I even have time to pursue a few hobbies too.

        So my advice to you is to forget about competitions, contests, and finding copywriters who want to become your partner. Focus on building your start-up. Write your own marketing when you need to. A LOT of well-known online marketers and business owners did exactly that in their start-up years. They built their business up until they could justify hiring people like me to help them grow it even more.

        If you happen to cross paths with another entrepreneurial person who would be a great business partner, then go for it. If they happen to write copy at a high level or some other highly valuable skill, then that's awesome too.

        But if you want to attract a top-notch person as your business partner, then you need to bring as much or more to the table than they do.

        Otherwise, that top-notch person (who likely gets numerous unsolicited offers like yours every year) will politely decline. Because they can afford to wait for the right opportunity for them to come their way.

        Good luck,

        Mike
        Thanks yeah that is some great advice. I can write. It is hard...especially on your own product that you're excited about. But at least with Wordpress I can constantly refine it. One of the best things about putting my letters on a blog is that I can edit it right on the page as I get feedback and use plugins, maybe split test etc...

        I suspect over time it can develop into a very good salesletter.

        Yeah I don't want to work so hard anymore...but I was willing to work hard enough to have my own product and do serious market research.

        On a command level, if I was running a team, I could tell people what to make and then have copywriters and advertisers pitch it out, I'm almost certain I could develop software and marketing strategy to cause havoc with any of the major ones out there if I had some funds. We'll see though if that day comes.

        I actually broke down today and made some pitches for investment. I want to keep my company all my own, but the tech world is investment, to get to the big levels it can help.

        You just have to work with the right people I think and be grounded in the reality of the market. Then maybe it is possible to make some real money...Because the mastermind principle is powerful, and having multiple minds on your business can take the work off you and make it more profitable.

        If I was looking for a million per year I would be a copywriter...it sounds like it could almost be a fun profession...like I said before, top copywriters have reviewed my work favorably, whether you believe it or not...

        but I'm looking to be a business owner who hires copywriters and leverages them, uses the power of copywriting to maximum effect, up to the billions...just because I know that dollar for dollar, copywriting can be the best investment...but you also need a solid product.

        The point for me is to have my own product with wide appeal and then consider my base level creative work done and now how improvements and infinite variations for different markets as well as transformations to different mediums.

        I don't want to do this from my desk though. I want to get to a real lifestyle, like you say, with kids and free time, and have a team that I can just tell what to do and execute strategy without ever sitting at a computer again.

        That's my goal. Actually, I'm trying to arrange it so that everything can be done from a farm...and everyday I can just record an mp3 on what I want my team to do, on my cell phone, while I'm outside
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  • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
    lol. that's funny.
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  • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
    btw: I don't think it is ever time to stop selling.
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  • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
    that is a pause in selling...not a stop...while you figure out something more expensive to sell to him later
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by jessegilbert View Post

      that is a pause in selling...not a stop...while you figure out something more expensive to sell to him later
      Depends on what you're selling. Maybe you don't have a back-end to sell at that time. You might not have an upsell offer which fits with what they're ready to buy.

      Sometimes the goal is to just get a new customer into your company. It might even be done as a loss leader even. There's a reason why most home alarm monitoring services offer a free home security system when you agree to their monthly service. It's not because they want to hand out a bunch of free alarms either.

      But once you've gained them as a customer, you gain the opportunity to sell to them repeatedly over time. Then you gain the opportunity to sell them everything you ever have to offer.
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  • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
    yes I understand. I'm working on it. Let's put it this way; There is a copywriter's edition in the works, and a very good copywriter (at least I have heard him mentioned in the top top circles) looked at it right away and said is was a go for a promotion...that's at $97, and that was without it's most compelling point of proof, which I'm working on.

    I asked in another thread what features specifically for the copywriter are needed, 60 views, but zero responses. So I do have my ear to the market and waiting to know what it is you want that is not being met. Maybe you have it all, and all you need is a basic word processor and highlighter.

    But I know the process, and it involves notes, and scraps and tidbits. There is a lot of room for copywriting software as far as I know.

    It's the little things sometimes...little details in a software that can save potentially hours over time, so I know it can likely be a value proposition.

    And second, I mean, with copywriting, if you see something that could help you a bit, $97 is nothing basically zero in the scheme of things because one bullet point you get from it, or headline, could be worth a fortune. So I could even charge more if a few people like it.

    I will make it better, but there is something there, at least for a few people so far, and if 1 or 2 big names goes for it, then it's on. Might not make a million...I don't even know how big the copywriter's market is.

    Anyways I'm tired of hyping up my product, I hope to come back with some solid proofs for you soon and added features. At entry fee, you'd be getting lifetime upgrades during the launch so even if it looks a bit bare, it would likely be worthwhile...
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  • Profile picture of the author gemmom24
    All the best!
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Might be good for new writers.
      Probably good for NON English speaking writers wanting to sell to native English speakers.

      I don't get the "laboring" over the copy writing edition, unless you go for the new AWAI type crowd, why you seem to be so obsesseed with this one part of your software.

      As a software beta tester on many occasions I was given incomplete software to play with it, you appear to want to race this to the market, why not put it AS IS in the hands of a dozen or more copywriters and via USE, they will tell you what is lacking, or what they like.

      But, then again, those were BETA tests of real software companies.

      Are you just using WF for a little "pre press buzz"?

      gjabiz

      PS. With all due respect to established writers, those who have written for national pubs and all, have you ever written a block of text like found in this thread, ONE LONG, unbroken, sentence after sentence, which is hard on the eyes, makes the reader tired of reading and without any "enter" or paragraph breaks, is this style National Magazines and your clients have paid you to do? Cause if so, it is not a good first foot forward. How hard is it to separate sentences????
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  • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
    Sorry. I have been working over time so my writing quality here is a bit informal.

    I will try to limit it and get it in the hands of writers. I probably have enough research now to make a good first version for the copywriter's market.

    It is a complicated project, logistically, due to the number of segments.

    The reason I'm obsessed with the copywriting feature is because I'm obsessed with copywriting itself and how I might implement it for my own product in the most efficient manner possible.

    I wasn't really intending to use the Warrior forum for pre-press buzz, more for market research and product development. So if it appears that way, well, ok...but I just wanted to interact with a group that may be potential users.

    The market is much, much bigger than the warrior forum and this is the only forum I have visited in regards to this product, the only forum I have posted a string of messages on in probably a decade, if ever.

    I think the warriors copywriting section represents a good middle ground between the newbies and the 'ultra-elite' copywriters who probably don't spend much time at forums (but I have encountered a few of the very high level writers here who have been very helpful and patient with me, so thanks.)

    I would say the warrior forum copywriter's represent between the top 5% to 10% ranging to the top 25% of ones I know of, but maybe I'm wrong and don't know who is out there. I know there are some serious copywriters here with a lot of experience and cred.

    I can use some pre-release buzz, but strategy-wise, it would not be needed for the promotion I have in mind and would even possibly pose some risk to me based on the number of marketers here, so no, that was not really my #1 goal.

    What I'm saying is, I'm working hard to create a valuable product, right out of the gates, based on feedback from top level copywriters that cannot be easily duplicated in terms of functionality and quality copy principles. But I should probably just release what I have now and see how it evolves and if there is room for improvement to make it appeal to copywriters enough that they actually see why I think it can be one of their top tools, agree with me, and start using it regularly.

    It will be good for non-english speakers, definitely, as the translation features help them write more coherent english...but anyone who has dealt with ESL freelancers knows it will still probably be many years before they could pose any real threat if ever at all to native english speaking sales copy writers in the high level market.

    Part of what I have in mind is the opportunity for copywriters to have their messages translated into foreign languages for their clients in a way that is efficient and provides the accuracy required to convey sales messages and capitalize on foreign markets where their competition may be close to zero and ROI could be much higher for ad spends.

    You can see more if you want. I can let you know here when it is ready. But I don't want to do self promotion here, so if I get money, I will probably just buy a banner ad or something, maybe a few of them, budget permitting.

    It may be a few months though, as development is hard and always takes much longer than I think.
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