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The word crap?

by Intrepreneur
37 replies
The word crap in a sales copy.. permissable or not so permissable?

Thanks.
#crap #word
  • Profile picture of the author pbennett
    I think it's tacky. I cannot believe some of the language in the emails I've been getting from IM'ers. Not good. Not if you want to be taken seriously.
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    • Profile picture of the author pbennett
      I put an IM'er on my email blacklist because of the language. I also quit my job because my CEO couldn't stop using the F word in staff meetings. It's really unprofessional and personally offensive to a LOT of people. Not just me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    I would say it depends on the market, your relationship with your market, and many other factors...

    That being said I've seen a lot more colorful language used by some very well known copywriters.

    So it definitely has it's place, but it does depend.

    -Scott
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  • Profile picture of the author tbarnby
    I agree with most of what has been said here but have noticed a trend. I compete with one of my old proteges. She is very "up-front" in her communication. She says what she means and makes no apology for it. She has had insane conversions after people read her blog. She doesn't swear much but the word crap is not out of bounds for her. However, this isn't in her copy. It's in her blog, where she is writing an editorial. My advice is to be conversational, but be conversational like you're having that conversation with someone you do not really know yet. Let them set the tone and level of communication.
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  • Profile picture of the author Traci
    What Vin said.

    I've written "crap" several times, lol.

    It's actually on my own sales page and in the WSO I'm running... I don't see that word as being offensive to the people I am targeting.

    Now if I was writing a letter or email aimed at women over 55 who like to crochet, I wouldn't use it...
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    • Profile picture of the author pbennett
      such an interesting topic.

      I hear this argument a lot.

      My son is in a rock band - a very good rock band - and he insists that they can't reach their target market unless there's vulgar language sometimes. You can imagine how that goes over with me. I hate it. They're great musicians. He's very talented. Why can't that just stand on its own? Why can't copy just stand on its own?
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      • Profile picture of the author Kyle Tully
        Originally Posted by pbennett View Post

        My son is in a rock band - a very good rock band - and he insists that they can't reach their target market unless there's vulgar language sometimes. You can imagine how that goes over with me. I hate it. They're great musicians. He's very talented. Why can't that just stand on its own? Why can't copy just stand on its own?
        It's about connecting with your audience... where ever they are at.

        It's about talking to them in their own language. (Believe it or not, teenagers use swear words )

        And it's about waking them up and getting them to pay attention, no matter how boring their real life is.

        If you're not doing that then it's not "good" copy.
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        • Profile picture of the author MontelloMarketing
          Originally Posted by Kyle Tully View Post

          And it's about waking them up and getting them to pay attention, no matter how boring their real life is.
          True... and even more importantly it's NOT about waking them up to "enlightenment." It's not about trying to pull them up to your level. If you want them to do you the favor of giving you their money, you will at least go as far as speaking their language in order to get it.
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          • Profile picture of the author pbennett
            ugh. it's a good thing my target market is in my age range!
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            • Profile picture of the author Intrepreneur
              I've opted to remove it and have a more targeted sentence that drives home some relevancy.
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            • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
              Originally Posted by pbennett View Post

              ugh. it's a good thing my target market is in my age range!
              Yes, it IS a good thing. You get to be excited about gluten-free chocolate with your readers and your readers love you for it. The people who go to your son's band's shows would likely find it a bit like watching paint dry.

              It's also a good thing 22 year old guys like chicks with big boobs, beer and bongs. Certainly they don't want to hear about caramel hot-chocolate any more than you want to listen to their F-bombs. But to them, it's part of their identity and their language... fact.

              A place for everything and everything in its place. It's not just a Good Housekeeping quip from the 50's, it's also an important marketing concept.

              Kyle and Vin both make extremely important points about selling in the world the way it IS, not the way one would like it to be.

              And your son is exactly right. He's off to a fine start, if you're not at least a little bit uncomfortable with your Mom listening to your rock band, I'd have serious doubts about you as a rocker! : )

              Crap is an utterly benign word in some markets while in others I'd never use such coarse language when "leavings", "trash", or "_____" work so much more nicely.

              Brian
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              • Profile picture of the author nontemplates
                Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

                Yes, it IS a good thing. You get to be excited about gluten-free chocolate with your readers and your readers love you for it. The people who go to your son's band's shows would likely find it a bit like watching paint dry.
                Not if they are allergic to Gluten. So in the end its all about the target as you said. I'm with her though. Life is all about choices and in this you have a choice too. Clearly the young rock audience responds to other things as well since most advertising doesn't even allow the use of the F bomb and they still buy. Not getting into any moral discussions though - not the place for it - Just saying theres still a choice.

                Anyway for the vast amount of products being sold by Warrior Members using vulgarites will give you a few brownie points with one group of potential customeres while turning off another group. Theres little point. For the vast majority of products the first thing you should be doing is avoiding the possibility of offending anyone.
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                • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
                  Originally Posted by nontemplates View Post

                  Not if they are allergic to Gluten. So in the end its all about the target as you said.
                  Hey Mike, remind me to tell you about Marilyn Manson's mom baking brownies for his merch stand he called "Satan's Bake Sale" back in the day (in Davie at the Plus 5 or The Button South in Hallandale).

                  I'm with her though. Life is all about choices and in this you have a choice too. Clearly the young rock audience responds to other things as well since most advertising doesn't even allow the use of the F bomb and they still buy.
                  We're not talking about F-bombs in advertising. We were talking about mirroring the language spoken by the market (and some rock lyrics).

                  Not getting into any moral discussions though - not the place for it - Just saying theres still a choice.
                  Ah, but you are mon frere. And it's a perfect place to discuss it within the context of marketing.

                  The fact is, morals have nothing to do with it. This is about MEETING YOUR MARKET WHERE THEY ARE.

                  Anyway for the vast amount of products being sold by Warrior Members using vulgarites will give you a few brownie points with one group of potential customeres while turning off another group. Theres little point.
                  We've made a jump here from using a word like "crap" or "bitch" somewhere in our copy to vulgarities and F-bombs. Nobody in their right mind looks to include vulgar language in their sales copy. Nobody is suggesting that. What's been said is not to get HUNG UP on a particular word or phrase if it's congruent with that market's vernacular.

                  For the vast majority of products the first thing you should be doing is avoiding the possibility of offending anyone.
                  I could not agree with you less about that. The FIRST thing you should be doing is truly understanding who your market really IS and what they say, do, and feel.

                  The second thing you should be doing is crafting a message that speaks directly to them with emotional intensity - in the language that they use.

                  If a secondary demographic gets their panties in a twist because you said "crap" or that "all the whiners do is bitch, bitch, and bitch some more..." it's only smart to see if you can still convey the message with the same zing in a different way.

                  Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't.

                  I refuse to neuter powerful copy for my primary target because it might offend an ancillary target.

                  If a market has delicate sensibilities, you write differently than if your market likes being whacked over the head with a shovel (and more than a few markets do!).

                  If you're writing for a corporate client, you'd never say "panties in a twist". But writing a post in the Warrior forum? Sure...

                  All things in moderation - including piety.

                  Best,

                  Brian
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                  • Profile picture of the author nontemplates
                    The fact is, morals have nothing to do with it. This is about MEETING YOUR MARKET WHERE THEY ARE.
                    Mi amigo thats what I just said - not a place for discussing morality. We agree


                    Nobody in their right mind looks to include vulgar language in their sales copy.
                    Umm vulgarity can be subjective and yes I have seen some use it ao I wouldn't be that dogmatic about it.


                    I could not agree with you less about that. The FIRST thing you should be doing is truly understanding who your market really IS and what they say, do, and feel.
                    I don't think we are as far off as you think. If an overwhelming majority of a market is used to certain language and think nothing of it then it won't be offensive. We are saying almost the same thing in different ways.

                    Besides as writers the whole skill is being able to say things in a variety of ways so if a significant part of any audience is going to find something offensive theres always a better way.

                    As far as most of the offers and products people are selling on Warriors theres really no point in using crap if a significant portion of the potential buyers are going to think its sh--. English language is filled with all kinds of more precise words and phrases and the target market for most of these products don't call for it.


                    I refuse to neuter powerful copy for my primary target because it might offend an ancillary target.

                    that depends entirely on the percentages of what you call the ancillary target. 5-10% I would be inclined to agree. 30%? that would be getting a bit high. I'll pass on defining that as powerful copy. So if you are saying powerful copy is that which conects with say 70% and turns off 30% then we have our first real disagreement. I say you can hit the mark without offending a high percentage or you should rework it. I dont' want 1 in 3 or even 1 in 4 heading for the exit just because I insist on using a particular word. Theres nothing powerful about that.
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    • Profile picture of the author nontemplates
      Originally Posted by Traci View Post

      What Vin said.

      I've written "crap" several times, lol.

      It's actually on my own sales page and in the WSO I'm running... I don't see that word as being offensive to the people I am targeting.
      actually the word doesn't have to mean what alot of people particularly in the US feel it does. In some cultures it simple means garbage or junk.
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      • Profile picture of the author MontelloMarketing
        Originally Posted by nontemplates View Post

        actually the word doesn't have to mean what alot of people particularly in the US feel it does. In some cultures it simple means garbage or junk.
        I don't know where you're from, but "crap" in the US means junk or garbage. On top of that, it's a softer, more acceptable way of saying sh--.
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        • Profile picture of the author nontemplates
          Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing View Post

          I don't know where you're from, but "crap" in the US means junk or garbage. On top of that, it's a softer, more acceptable way of saying sh--.
          thats what I was referring to. I'm from the US but have spent time in places where crap doesn't have the sh-- meaning at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author BloggerDownUnder
    I guess it's horses for courses and will depend on your demographics. Personally, I wouldn't use it as there are heaps of words that could be used instead. That said, may be I should move with the times as I often used the word in conversation...but not in front of kids and most women (sorry if that sounded sexist).
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  • Profile picture of the author Bigsofty
    Crap is fine with most audiences. Don't use **** though. It's a bitch to get off the keyboard...




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  • Profile picture of the author Bigsofty
    Ah, irony..




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  • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
    Don't buy into that CRAP!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    Here's an example of a "controversial" sales letter in action...

    It's HIGHLY offensive, and although it's tongue-in-cheek, it's still selling a REAL product... And this guy sells a ton of this particular product.

    DON'T read this if you're easily offended... That includes profanity, along with some racial/sexist stereotypes thrown in for good measure....

    Test-Drive The Seductive Selling Newsletter, FREE!

    I'm not saying I agree with his approach, but I guarantee that letter did what it was supposed to do...

    It served as link bait, introduced a lot of people to the "brand" known as Craig Garber, and as a bi-product I'd put money on the fact it moved a lot of his offline newsletter subscriptions...

    Pay close attention to the "real" call to action at the bottom, and you'll notice he doesn't start to worry about offending ANYONE at any point...

    If you try to appeal to everyone you'll sell to no one... I'm personally a big fan of Craigs overall philosophy on copywriting and marketing (Not necessarily that letter) but he does a lot of swearing, says a lot of "offensive" things, and tells it like it is.

    He knows his market.

    I'm not saying I'm going to use this approach on my next clients real estate investment course... But it CAN be done.

    And if anyone doesn't think that Craig knows a thing or two about direct response done right, I'd love to hear about it... I personally think he's a phenomenal copywriter with a lot of great insights into direct response marketing.

    -Scott
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    • Profile picture of the author pbennett
      wow, that's twisted.

      I hear what you're saying, but I don't agree with it. I guarantee you that my son could have an audience with or without the sensationalism. He's that good. If your copy is that good, you'll have an audience. But, and I guess here's the big caveat - you have to be jaw dropping good.
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      • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
        Originally Posted by pbennett View Post

        wow, that's twisted.
        Twisted?

        I hear what you're saying, but I don't agree with it.
        That's both perfectly fine and polite of you to say.

        I guarantee you that my son could have an audience with or without the sensationalism. He's that good.
        I love that you're so supportive of your son's music.

        Seriously... Go mom!

        Best,

        Brian
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
        As a musician, I cannot tell you how wrong you are.

        Music is NOT about music... it is about image, connecting with an audience etc.

        Most people don't know what good music is. You want proof? Here's some: Jessica Simpson. Britney Spears.

        To quote Eminem (one of the most successful-selling rappers of all time): "Will Smith says he doesn't have to cuss to sell records. Well I do. So **** him, and **** you too."

        I know HEAPS of AMAZING musicians that languish in poverty... and a lot of crappy musicians who make it big.

        Sensationalism and controversey sells... so your son is right.

        It's a wonderful, utopian ideal... but it ain't reality.

        -Dan

        P.S. That's not to say he has to SWEAR, necessarily... but for a rock band, it's either than or really messed-up subject matter. Three Days Grace doesn't swear (in their latest album, anyway) but there are LOTS of double entendres, drug references.... etc.

        Originally Posted by pbennett View Post

        wow, that's twisted.

        I hear what you're saying, but I don't agree with it. I guarantee you that my son could have an audience with or without the sensationalism. He's that good. If your copy is that good, you'll have an audience. But, and I guess here's the big caveat - you have to be jaw dropping good.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

          To quote Eminem (one of the most successful-selling rappers of all time): "Will Smith says he doesn't have to cuss to sell records. Well I do. So **** him, and **** you too."
          Let's just put this to rest, okay?

          Any serious rapper knows that when you write rap, you can shove F-bombs all over the place to fix your lines. If you have a line that's too short, there are varieties of the F-bomb that can fill anything from one to four syllables, and you can hack your way through without really knowing how to write decent rap lyrics.

          Do you need it to connect with modern youth? NO. Satyricon, Septic Flesh, and Three Inches of Blood do not need to curse to sell albums. Go check out their lyrics. Do those sound like squeaky-clean parent-approved bands? Nope - these are balls-to-the-wall extreme metal bands.

          The first two just got off a tour with Cradle of Filth. CoF drop F-bombs every two or three lines. They have songs with titles like Gilded C*nt and Of Dark Blood and F*cking.

          I saw that tour. Showbox at the market, Seattle, this past February. The interest and energy was no lower for Septic than it was for Cradle, and a surprising number of people were only there to see Satyricon (leaving before the other two bands even took the stage).

          I took my children to see 3IOB on tour last year at El Corazon in Seattle. Five and two years old, respectively. (The two year old is a bigger 3IOB fan than I am - indeed, he was the first fan in the house, and I only got into them because he was such a big fan.) The crowd was no less active, involved, and pumped than they were at the Cradle show.

          The profanity really isn't necessary. It's just not. You don't have to work that hard to write without profanity, you just have to decide you're not going to do it. Now, granted, when you're writing about violence and death and hell and damnation, your parents probably still won't approve... but the profanity just plain doesn't matter.
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    • Profile picture of the author nontemplates
      Originally Posted by Scott Murdaugh View Post


      I'm not saying I agree with his approach, but I guarantee that letter did what it was supposed to do...
      What approach? He was creative and can write some tongue in cheek copy. Frankly I'm ticked. You said it was a real product and everytime I go to order Automatic Pimpin' it takes me to some copywriting nonsense. Wheres a brother to get the straight dope?
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  • Profile picture of the author Kazooli
    Layterms as such could be seen positive depending on the the market you are focusing on. An older generation may not find this as acceptable as a younger generation would.

    Sincerely,
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael James
    IMHO reality isn't sexist.

    Sexist would be to say that is how it should be...
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  • Profile picture of the author nontemplates
    Pbennet,

    Stick to your guns Mom. Don't let anyone shout you down from it. Some of the top rock songs of all times have no swearing or drug references. Theres nothing utopian about what you want. None of us have heard your son or his music to tell you you are wrong and the absence of cussing etc hasn't stopped several artists from raking in the cash in just about any genre. Easier to go to that? Well of course but then as parent you aren't looking for your child to choose the path of less resistance. More power to you.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    My granddaughter's father is the *cough*singer*cough* in a band.
    They have shirts for their band.
    The back of the shirts say"warning, we use the word *F*** a lot"
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