The Scapegoat Technique (A Must Know + Dangerous)

34 replies
I'm writing this and feeling a little bit guilty
But it's not my fault if you abused the knowledge I'm about to share with you
--
What' scapegoating?

It's blaming somebody else for the trouble. And It's very powerful in copywriting.

We might say the reason of the chaos in the world is some crazy aliens on the moon LOL.

Or the reason we have high rates of unemployment is because of the government's greed
Or the jobs are stolen by cats.

You got the idea ...

There's trouble and we don't want to be responsible for, so we start to blame and make somebody
or something the cause of the trouble, the scapegoat.

In marketing, this is very useful.

Let's say you are selling a skincare product
You can start your ad with something like this:

"A Discovery Reveals the Root Cause of Wrinkles and It's not Your Fault."

We have a lot of ads with high converting rates using the scapegoating.

They make the reader feel good, because he is not the problem.

It's not that he is not healthy, or something wrong with him/her.

Let's take another example
Weight loss product that attacks some weird particles in your blood.

These particles are the root cause of your weight loss problem.
It's not that you eat a lot, no, It's something else outside of your will.

There are more advance examples, but I'll stop here and let your imagination do the job
------------------------------------------------------
P.S. Give it a thought, let me know what do you think?
Thank you for reading
Shawn Cesar
#dangerous #scapegoat #technique
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  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    Yup. One of the necessary parts of any pitch from the stage for a money making plan is a combination of "The truth has been held from you" and "It's not your fault at all".

    Sometimes, I've had to grit my teeth when I say it (because it's never true). But without that key component, they won't buy in the same numbers.
    Signature
    One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

    "Be kind. For everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".....Ian Maclaren
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    • Profile picture of the author Shawn Cesar
      I had this concern of making the scapegoat a true one, but I totally agree, it's a must and a lot of copywriters and salespeople miss it.
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    Yes, it's called a common enemy.

    It's used a lot in pharmaceutical pieces...

    they lie and put out drugs that are harmful and hurt more than they help. Your prescriptions could be slowly killing you...all in the name of big money.

    They make millions off of dangerous drugs...here's a natural remedy that works better, and it's found in ordinary foods.

    Wrote a sales letter for a financial newsletter for Agora...it was banned by 6 publishers because of the information it exposed...you can get the inside scoop...subscribe to my newsletter...

    The Chinese are stealing the election.

    Social Media is tracking your browsing history.

    Monsanto is controlling the food supply.

    What the government doesn't want you to know about the coming alien invasion.

    What pet food manufacturers are hiding from you...and how it is slowly killing your best friend.

    If you can find a common enemy, you build up a common connection.

    I did a post on here before about using emotions in your writing...just remember that for every negative emotion you use, you need to direct them to a positive emotion.

    Thanks for the post. Very interesting subject.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shawn Cesar
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      Yes, it's called a common enemy.

      It's used a lot in pharmaceutical pieces...

      they lie and put out drugs that are harmful and hurt more than they help. Your prescriptions could be slowly killing you...all in the name of big money.

      They make millions off of dangerous drugs...here's a natural remedy that works better, and it's found in ordinary foods.

      Wrote a sales letter for a financial newsletter for Agora...it was banned by 6 publishers because of the information it exposed...you can get the inside scoop...subscribe to my newsletter...

      The Chinese are stealing the election.

      Social Media is tracking your browsing history.

      Monsanto is controlling the food supply.

      What the government doesn't want you to know about the coming alien invasion.

      What pet food manufacturers are hiding from you...and how it is slowly killing your best friend.

      If you can find a common enemy, you build up a common connection.

      I did a post on here before about using emotions in your writing...just remember that for every negative emotion you use, you need to direct them to a positive emotion.

      Thanks for the post. Very interesting subject.
      That's really interesting,

      But isn't this the anti-establishment card, or pointing out the enemy card.

      And it looks different from making the root cause of the problem outside the reader, because ....

      No no no no, sorry, as I'm writing this I realized that's true, pointing out the enemy is scapegoating and making the enemy the root cause of the problem.

      But we can do multiple scapegoating, pointing out the enemy, reveal a secret particle inside the reader mind that is causing the problem and he can't control it, only by such and such.

      Thank you max!
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Shawn Cesar View Post


        But we can do multiple scapegoating, pointing out the enemy, reveal a secret particle inside the reader mind that is causing the problem and he can't control it, only by such and such.
        I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. Telling someone they can't control something inside themselves is another way for "It's because of me" to creep in. And that can never happen.

        It can't be their fault.
        It can't be the way they were raised.
        It can't be a parent's fault, or their friend's fault.

        It has to be an outside agency, completely beyond their control, that is causing their problems. Information was kept from the prospect by...them. Some undiscovered fact, that was just discovered, is the source of their problem.

        You can have multiple reasons for their problem, , but none of them can be connected to them, their family, their experience, their body, their views.

        I'm not a copy writer, but I am a salesman, and no matter what the problem is, even if they tell you that they are to blame, you cannot agree with them. They have to be faultless, They cannot be connected with the reason for the problem, in any way....so they will be ready to receive the one...the only...remedy.

        Oh, and the remedy cannot depend on their actions or any sort of effort. It has to be a thing, a formula, a bottle of something, a plan, something outside themselves.

        I wish this wasn't so. I really do.
        Signature
        One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

        "Be kind. For everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".....Ian Maclaren
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        • Profile picture of the author Shawn Cesar
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. Telling someone they can't control something inside themselves is another way for "It's because of me" to creep in. And that can never happen.

          It can't be their fault.
          It can't be the way they were raised.
          It can't be a parent's fault, or their friend's fault.

          It has to be an outside agency, completely beyond their control, that is causing their problems. Information was kept from the prospect by...them. Some undiscovered fact, that was just discovered, is the source of their problem.

          You can have multiple reasons for their problem, , but none of them can be connected to them, their family, their experience, their body, their views.

          I'm not a copy writer, but I am a salesman, and no matter what the problem is, even if they tell you that they are to blame, you cannot agree with them. They have to be faultless, They cannot be connected with the reason for the problem, in any way....so they will be ready to receive the one...the only...remedy.

          Oh, and the remedy cannot depend on their actions or any sort of effort. It has to be a thing, a formula, a bottle of something, a plan, something outside themselves.

          I wish this wasn't so. I really do.
          Thank you for correcting my perspective before I commit a disaster!
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by Shawn Cesar View Post

            Thank you for correcting my perspective before I commit a disaster!
            Stop it, you're making me blush.

            Wait....wait.....that may be high blood pressure.
            Signature
            One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

            Terence Fletcher: "There are no two words in the English language more harmful than Good Job." Whiplash.
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            • Profile picture of the author max5ty
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


              Wait....wait.....that may be high blood pressure.
              It's not your fault...
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          • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
            Originally Posted by Shawn Cesar View Post

            Thank you for correcting my perspective before I commit a disaster!
            If you are a new copywriter, you must know the one thing that can ruin your career before it even gets started.

            It is so dangerous, so costly, and if you don't know it, doom and gloom await you. And your mentor kept it from you, on purpose.

            You weren't told this insider secret for one simple reason; telling you could be the ruin of copwriting teachers, mentors and instructors.

            But Shawn (personalization in play), no matter how much money or time or effort you put into your copywriting, if you ignore this one secret, you could wind up in the junk yard of copywriters, a part of the pile of wrecks, disasters and people who are being ridiculed for calling themselves copywriters.

            You don't want your Copywriting career to end up in that cemetery before you even get started, do you?

            Well, truthfully, it isn't your fault. And don't blame your Mentor, not yet anyhow. It is possible your copywriting teacher doesn't know the secret either.

            Here is the cold hard truth, and please accept it because it could save your copywriter life.

            Many of today's highly hyped copy teachers, have very little in the way of actual success, it is a hot topic field where the old saying: "those who can, DO, those who can't teach", never has such a saying been more true.

            But even if you had the best copywriter in the world as your mentor, it is possible the one career devastating mistake wasn't taught to you.

            What is it, the secret to help you not only avoid becoming an over the cliff wreck, but also a highly sought after, highly paid copywriter?

            Here it is....


            Shawn, please read my next post for the secret, OK? (Cliffhanger?)

            GordonJ
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            • Profile picture of the author Shawn Cesar
              Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

              If you are a new copywriter, you must know the one thing that can ruin your career before it even gets started.

              It is so dangerous, so costly, and if you don't know it, doom and gloom await you. And your mentor kept it from you, on purpose.

              You weren't told this insider secret for one simple reason; telling you could be the ruin of copwriting teachers, mentors and instructors.

              But Shawn (personalization in play), no matter how much money or time or effort you put into your copywriting, if you ignore this one secret, you could wind up in the junk yard of copywriters, a part of the pile of wrecks, disasters and people who are being ridiculed for calling themselves copywriters.

              You don't want your Copywriting career to end up in that cemetery before you even get started, do you?

              Well, truthfully, it isn't your fault. And don't blame your Mentor, not yet anyhow. It is possible your copywriting teacher doesn't know the secret either.

              Here is the cold hard truth, and please accept it because it could save your copywriter life.

              Many of today's highly hyped copy teachers, have very little in the way of actual success, it is a hot topic field where the old saying: "those who can, DO, those who can't teach", never has such a saying been more true.

              But even if you had the best copywriter in the world as your mentor, it is possible the one career devastating mistake wasn't taught to you.

              What is it, the secret to help you not only avoid becoming an over the cliff wreck, but also a highly sought after, highly paid copywriter?

              Here it is....


              Shawn, please read my next post for the secret, OK? (Cliffhanger?)

              GordonJ
              Hmmmmmmmmmm,

              Tons of ideas are popping up in my head.

              But it's better to wait for the next post and read it.

              I'm not new to copywriting, indeed I've spent a lot of time studying it but still I think there is a lot to come.

              The main thing I got from studying copywriting is, it's plain persuasion and psychology, there are no magic pills.

              It's all human nature, common sense, and an open mind.

              I still don't know a lot of stuff, and I'm learning every day

              But what struck me is the fact that copywriting as a craft has participated in almost all the big events in our life.

              We can see this in the propaganda of world war II, we can see this in the cold war, we can see that copywriting is a tool not just to sell stuff, but to move nations into war, get them to believe something new, the list goes on and on and I don't want to make it sound like political...

              Still, I'm curious and I love helping people and I'll always be a student of advertising.

              Thank you all for the GOLD! Gordon, Claude Whitacre and Max.
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    @Shawn Cesar...

    the whole common enemy scenario serves a couple purposes. Most people don't want to admit they've caused most of their problems.

    Although I've done it before...it's not always advisable to state the facts that because someone wants to sit around on the couch all day, eat donuts, never exercise, smoke, blah, blah, blah...they then suffer strokes, heart attacks, end up wearing diapers and sitting in nursing homes staring at the walls all day...

    so we tell them it's not their fault. It's someone else's fault that they are suffering. It's stress, money problems, the economy, fast food, a divorce...

    we let them know we understand and we also hate their common enemies and we are there to comfort them and offer a solution.

    We want them to think, "Wow, someone understands why I'm a big fat piece of lard and why I look like a bag of doorknobs in my clothes, and why my thighs rub together when I walk and I get out of breath and use the motorized scooter in Walmart"

    so guess what?

    It's not their fault they have no self-control. It's not their fault they eat whoppers and drink soda by the case. It's not their fault they hide chocolate under their mattress or eat twinkies in the middle of the night -

    it's the evil bad people that cause it...and we know they cause it because they did it to us too but we fixed it and now we want to tell them how we fixed it and now we're in great shape and get tons of women and...

    anyways, you get the point.

    So, here's a tip for the day. If you're stuck when it comes to writing something...sit down and write a letter to your mother, your sister, your brother, and tell them what you're offering and why they should get it. Be personal. Be emotional. Tell them why you're worried about their weight, their dementia, their lack of exercise, their cancer, their diabetes...

    Dear Mom

    Lately, it seems you're forgetting things. It never used to be that way. I remember when you were once outgoing and...

    then, once you write the letter, use it. It's personal, it has emotion, it is something everyone can relate to and if it's interesting, people will read it to the end.

    Write copy that grabs people by their emotions.

    I'm rambling on, but I love the post you wrote and find it interesting.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shawn Cesar
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      @Shawn Cesar...

      the whole common enemy scenario serves a couple purposes. Most people don't want to admit they've caused most of their problems.

      Although I've done it before...it's not always advisable to state the facts that because someone wants to sit around on the couch all day, eat donuts, never exercise, smoke, blah, blah, blah...they then suffer strokes, heart attacks, end up wearing diapers and sitting in nursing homes staring at the walls all day...

      so we tell them it's not their fault. It's someone else's fault that they are suffering. It's stress, money problems, the economy, fast food, a divorce...

      we let them know we understand and we also hate their common enemies and we are there to comfort them and offer a solution.

      We want them to think, "Wow, someone understands why I'm a big fat piece of lard and why I look like a bag of doorknobs in my clothes, and why my thighs rub together when I walk and I get out of breath and use the motorized scooter in Walmart"

      so guess what?

      It's not their fault they have no self-control. It's not their fault they eat whoppers and drink soda by the case. It's not their fault they hide chocolate under their mattress or eat twinkies in the middle of the night -

      it's the evil bad people that cause it...and we know they cause it because they did it to us too but we fixed it and now we want to tell them how we fixed it and now we're in great shape and get tons of women and...

      anyways, you get the point.

      So, here's a tip for the day. If you're stuck when it comes to writing something...sit down and write a letter to your mother, your sister, your brother, and tell them what you're offering and why they should get it. Be personal. Be emotional. Tell them why you're worried about their weight, their dementia, their lack of exercise, their cancer, their diabetes...

      Dear Mom

      Lately, it seems you're forgetting things. It never used to be that way. I remember when you were once outgoing and...

      then, once you write the letter, use it. It's personal, it has emotion, it is something everyone can relate to and if it's interesting, people will read it to the end.

      Write copy that grabs people by their emotions.

      I'm rambling on, but I love the post you wrote and find it interesting.
      This hits hard!

      Thank you for the explanation max,

      I'm getting a much clearer view of it now
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    • Profile picture of the author tonyna
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      @Shawn Cesar...

      the whole common enemy scenario serves a couple purposes. Most people don't want to admit they've caused most of their problems.

      Although I've done it before...it's not always advisable to state the facts that because someone wants to sit around on the couch all day, eat donuts, never exercise, smoke, blah, blah, blah...they then suffer strokes, heart attacks, end up wearing diapers and sitting in nursing homes staring at the walls all day...

      so we tell them it's not their fault. It's someone else's fault that they are suffering. It's stress, money problems, the economy, fast food, a divorce...

      we let them know we understand and we also hate their common enemies and we are there to comfort them and offer a solution.

      We want them to think, "Wow, someone understands why I'm a big fat piece of lard and why I look like a bag of doorknobs in my clothes, and why my thighs rub together when I walk and I get out of breath and use the motorized scooter in Walmart"

      so guess what?

      It's not their fault they have no self-control. It's not their fault they eat whoppers and drink soda by the case. It's not their fault they hide chocolate under their mattress or eat twinkies in the middle of the night -

      it's the evil bad people that cause it...and we know they cause it because they did it to us too but we fixed it and now we want to tell them how we fixed it and now we're in great shape and get tons of women and...

      anyways, you get the point.

      So, here's a tip for the day. If you're stuck when it comes to writing something...sit down and write a letter to your mother, your sister, your brother, and tell them what you're offering and why they should get it. Be personal. Be emotional. Tell them why you're worried about their weight, their dementia, their lack of exercise, their cancer, their diabetes...

      Dear Mom

      Lately, it seems you're forgetting things. It never used to be that way. I remember when you were once outgoing and...

      then, once you write the letter, use it. It's personal, it has emotion, it is something everyone can relate to and if it's interesting, people will read it to the end.

      Write copy that grabs people by their emotions.

      I'm rambling on, but I love the post you wrote and find it interesting.
      Max,

      Please have you written any book personally?

      Or do you have a collection of your swipes? I will love to have access to it please.

      I find your mind extremely fascinating
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  • Profile picture of the author EvolveBest
    You see everyone , i told you it was the government, they have been harming all of us for so long. From all the brainwashing and smart tvs, bad tv, bad...

    And now that we get to discuss with liberty and ESREVER technology , oh man, these frequencies are like spirals...I told you guys it was the government.

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    so how was that, that seems like the only plausible way all this has happened.

    : )
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  • Profile picture of the author Shawn Cesar
    I love threads like these where everybody starts to throw golden nuggets!

    It gets me excited
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    In reality, there's so much more to copywriting than most understand...

    it takes years to understand, and then it can leave you just as confused as when you started.

    Some things always seem to elude me...

    why do some products take off when I think they have zero chance and yet others I think will be winners fizzle?

    Why is it I can spend days and weeks writing something and it bombs...while I can whip something out without thinking and it goes over like gangbusters?

    Am I even good, or do I just get lucky sometimes?

    Do I really understand human psychology?

    I try to remember that most big-name copywriters have had a lot of big bombs. Major companies with winning campaigns have also had many that failed. Am I just saying this to make myself feel better? Is it something I admit to make it seem like I'm just like everyone else? Am I just trying to fit in?

    We study the winners, but they won't always be a winner again. Times change, politics change things, the world changes, pandemics...

    What I do know...

    I go through my whole day pretending to be something. I put on a persona to everyone I meet. It's not always me...but it's how I want to be perceived.

    There are thoughts I have that I don't think anyone else has. There are dark places in my mind I go to that I think I'm the only one that goes there. Things I would never want anyone else to know...

    yet, I'm not alone. I know everyone is like me.

    I know every single person I meet is like me deep down inside. They have hidden thoughts. They have dark corners in their mind. They're portraying a person they want the world to know.

    We play mental games and say little things and act certain ways to have people think of us a certain way. It's a show we put on every day and in almost every situation.

    We talk about truly understanding people and writing to them as though we're talking to them personally. But how personal do we get when we know how they really are?

    There's a line we can't seem to cross. We can flirt with talking to them personally, but unless we're better than their best friends, we can only go so far, and then there's a limit.

    So, what we do in reality is baby them and pretend we don't really know the real them. We pretend they're normal and we talk to them on the level they portray to be. Or do we?

    How much should we hold back?

    Should we talk about their sexual fetishes? Should we discuss things they may do in the bedroom they don't want anyone to know? Do we suggest they act like they're not racist but deep down they have racist thoughts against certain groups of people?

    And if we bring up things we know are true, why would they shut us down? Is it society? Is it the way humans are?

    I've spent decades studying humans.

    So, I may be the first to say this...but this is what I think...

    what we strive to master is talking to people on the level they want to be perceived. We talk to them in their fantasy state.

    In reality, when we're studying an avatar to write to,we study the acting part of humans. We study the roles people play in their day to day life to be perceived a certain way.

    We strive to not only make them seem normal but that they fit into society. We understand their problem and we have a solution and we want them to think they fit into the solution because it works for everybody else.

    What I'm trying to say, once I completely understood people, I backed up a few steps and realized I could go too far. It became apparent to me that in reality, what I really wanted to do was pretend I understood and talk to the persona everyone portrayed in their day to day lives.

    I know this is deep for most, but if you stay in the business long enough, it's probably something that causes you to stop and think.

    Just my thoughts and like usual I get long winded
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    • Profile picture of the author Shawn Cesar
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      In reality, there's so much more to copywriting than most understand...

      it takes years to understand, and then it can leave you just as confused as when you started.

      Some things always seem to elude me...

      why do some products take off when I think they have zero chance and yet others I think will be winners fizzle?

      Why is it I can spend days and weeks writing something and it bombs...while I can whip something out without thinking and it goes over like gangbusters?

      Am I even good, or do I just get lucky sometimes?

      Do I really understand human psychology?

      I try to remember that most big-name copywriters have had a lot of big bombs. Major companies with winning campaigns have also had many that failed. Am I just saying this to make myself feel better? Is it something I admit to make it seem like I'm just like everyone else? Am I just trying to fit in?

      We study the winners, but they won't always be a winner again. Times change, politics change things, the world changes, pandemics...

      What I do know...

      I go through my whole day pretending to be something. I put on a persona to everyone I meet. It's not always me...but it's how I want to be perceived.

      There are thoughts I have that I don't think anyone else has. There are dark places in my mind I go to that I think I'm the only one that goes there. Things I would never want anyone else to know...

      yet, I'm not alone. I know everyone is like me.

      I know every single person I meet is like me deep down inside. They have hidden thoughts. They have dark corners in their mind. They're portraying a person they want the world to know.

      We play mental games and say little things and act certain ways to have people think of us a certain way. It's a show we put on every day and in almost every situation.

      We talk about truly understanding people and writing to them as though we're talking to them personally. But how personal do we get when we know how they really are?

      There's a line we can't seem to cross. We can flirt with talking to them personally, but unless we're better than their best friends, we can only go so far, and then there's a limit.

      So, what we do in reality is baby them and pretend we don't really know the real them. We pretend they're normal and we talk to them on the level they portray to be. Or do we?

      How much should we hold back?

      Should we talk about their sexual fetishes? Should we discuss things they may do in the bedroom they don't want anyone to know? Do we suggest they act like they're not racist but deep down they have racist thoughts against certain groups of people?

      And if we bring up things we know are true, why would they shut us down? Is it society? Is it the way humans are?

      I've spent decades studying humans.

      So, I may be the first to say this...but this is what I think...

      what we strive to master is talking to people on the level they want to be perceived. We talk to them in their fantasy state.

      In reality, when we're studying an avatar to write to,we study the acting part of humans. We study the roles people play in their day to day life to be perceived a certain way.

      We strive to not only make them seem normal but that they fit into society. We understand their problem and we have a solution and we want them to think they fit into the solution because it works for everybody else.

      What I'm trying to say, once I completely understood people, I backed up a few steps and realized I could go too far. It became apparent to me that in reality, what I really wanted to do was pretend I understood and talk to the persona everyone portrayed in their day to day lives.

      I know this is deep for most, but if you stay in the business long enough, it's probably something that causes you to stop and think.

      Just my thoughts and like usual I get long winded
      Wow, that's really deep,

      I read it four times and I think I need to go much deeper into it.

      It's really amazing when people talk with passion, get washed away with their
      thoughts and you watch this beautiful scene and trying to get something valuable out of it.
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      • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
        Originally Posted by Shawn Cesar View Post

        Wow, that's really deep,

        I read it four times and I think I need to go much deeper into it.

        It's really amazing when people talk with passion, get washed away with their
        thoughts and you watch this beautiful scene and trying to get something valuable out of it.
        Deep diving, where the metal starts singing songs by Davy Jones, always made me anxious, so I did an "emergency blow" to reach the surface.

        In reality, we are basic animals. A day at the zoo, watching primates might give one as much insight as a lifetime of study of human behavior.

        And one conclusion, which many a copywriter has made, in fact hammered away at and placed into canons of copy writing is...

        the collective is the answer. The group. The niche. The avatar.

        Whereas, on any given attempt, individual response will oft skew the data.

        Which is why even the top guys, the very best...won't bet their farms on what they "think" is a winner. Most can smell a wet dog, but KNOWING any given copy is going to be a breakthrough or big ROI, is at best, an educated guess.

        There is, perhaps, a tipping point. A look at the Capitol Riot on the 6th of this month shows a mob out of control, without a leader.

        One man buying a MAGA hat on the street corner is not an indicator of how others will respond.

        A million MAGA hats sold, does not indicate YOUR MAGA hat offer in a booth in downtown Portland is going to make you a lot of dough.

        As Max5ty points out, TIME and Place are pieces too, and may outweigh the golden words of the most skillful of copywriters.

        A deep dive into human behavior will reveal the reptilian brain in all of us; alive, well and making many decisions for us...now, off to a double cheeseburger, fries and a milkshake (sez the overweight, heart diseased diabetic).

        GordonJ
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      I backed up a few steps and realized I could go too far. It became apparent to me that in reality, what I really wanted to do was pretend I understood and talk to the persona everyone portrayed in their day to day lives.
      Highly insightful post.

      Of course, we all wear masks. But we don't think of it as a mask. Some of us are aware it's a mask, and some are less introspective.

      When selling, I went too deep myself. Trying to talk to the deeper part of a person's mind.
      I would ask questions about what they really thought. And here is a truth. ..

      They will not answer those questions. They deny they have deeper thoughts. It completely breaks rapport. I can't count the sales I've lost because I tried to understand, and discuss with them, what they were thinking deep down.

      So there is the person they show us, then there is the person they believe they are, and the deep visceral needs that really drives their decisions. These are three different things.

      What I have worked out is that I can talk to the person they see themselves as pretty directly, bypassing the mask they show. But I can't directly talk to the deeper inner core.

      But I can appeal to the deeper inner core of their psyche. We can create appeals that directly pull on their visceral needs, without addressing it in an obvious way.

      Sort of like a double entendre. It just sounds like a regular conversation, but it does appeal to the needs they can't acknowledge they have.

      The problem is, we don't know which specific deep need they have, without lots of conversation. So, at least in my case, I make a guess among the most common ones, and appeal to a couple of them.

      Often, these appeals are given in an offhand manner or as a joke. But I do it to put the idea in their mind. And it makes a difference.

      For example, "and girls like it too" sounds harmless. But a person will fit that statement to mean what applies to them. And if it doesn't apply to them, it is a throwaway line that's forgotten. (I got that from a commercial about testosterone replacement pills)

      Maybe a little harder to do in print, because no line is a forgotten line.

      A good way to think of their mask is the need to "be seen as"..like "Be seen as fair minded", which is different from actually being fair minded.

      "Needing to be seen as right" is different from actually wanting to be right.

      But I think "Needing to be seen as..." bridges the mask persona with who they think they are, and maybe even some of the deeper needs.

      It's all manipulative sh1t that I wish I never had to do.
      Signature
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      Terence Fletcher: "There are no two words in the English language more harmful than Good Job." Whiplash.
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  • Profile picture of the author quadagon
    There are similarities between some marketing techniques and what cults do to indoctrinate someone.

    Share a common interest or motivation with someone

    Tell them they are amazing

    Isolate them by blaming other for their failures

    Promise a solution that's safe.
    Signature
    I've got 99 problems but a niche ain't one
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    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
      Originally Posted by quadagon View Post

      There are similarities between some marketing techniques and what cults do to indoctrinate someone.

      Share a common interest or motivation with someone

      Tell them they are amazing

      Isolate them by blaming other for their failures

      Promise a solution that's safe.
      Which cults are you talking about?

      There are similarities between some marketing techniques...and almost EVERYTHING else. Whatever cults are, they are not unique in using "hidden persuaders".

      GordonJ
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

        Which cults are you talking about?

        There are similarities between some marketing techniques...and almost EVERYTHING else. Whatever cults are, they are not unique in using "hidden persuaders".

        GordonJ
        I use to study "Pick up artists". I've read several books on how to pick up women. (I promise, as research).

        The book The Mystery Method explains, in detail, every tool at their disposal.

        A few word changes, and it would be a good book on marketing. In fact, that entire world is just marketing, applied to getting a girl.
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        Terence Fletcher: "There are no two words in the English language more harmful than Good Job." Whiplash.
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        • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          I use to study "Pick up artists". I've read several books on how to pick up women. (I promise, as research).

          The book The Mystery Method explains, in detail, every tool at their disposal.

          A few word changes, and it would be a good book on marketing. In fact, that entire world is just marketing, applied to getting a girl.
          That book has some decent psychology, albeit skewed to his market, as you the researcher discovered, I'm sure.

          The primary tool in Mystery's tool kit, is PRESELECTION. On social media, have pics taken with other beautiful women around you, even if they are your mother or sister. His premise is, women want what other women want, or are attracted to men who other women are attracted to. This somewhat explains how those not so good looking guys get the girls, however a closer look, MONEY (also in his toolkit) is a powerful attractor too.

          The Pick Up Artist has always been around, books sold in PLAYBOY in the 1960's covered the subject. It became a CULT when NLP was added to the game, and savvy seminar guys knew there was an audience, maybe they were the first of the Incels, and made fortunes selling their stuff to desperate guys.

          What so many found out, these PUA's, was...no amount of magic words, NLP, or technique is going to work if you are repulsive.

          The best PUA I ever knew, never wrote a book, but did say this about it: "You want girls to be with you? Be the kind of guy they WANT to be with."

          I'd put that up against all 285 pages of the The Mystery Method. Or all the PUA secrets out there.

          Which brings me back to copywriting.

          The SCAPEGOAT is one of Blair Warren's Hidden Addictions found in FORBIDDEN KEYS, along with these:

          To be needed, or feel like it.
          To have hope, REAL or otherwise.
          To be NOTICED, the real purpose of Social Media, in fact most of the Internet.
          To be UNDERSTOOD.

          To share in secrets. The oxymoron of the addictions.

          And combined with Robert Cialdini's 6 Weapons of Influence:

          1-Reciprocity
          2-Liking
          3-Commitment and consistency
          4-Authority
          5-Scarcity
          6-Social Proof

          A copywriter has acquired an arsenal to draw from when fighting the good fight of taking people's money out of their pockets, oft with less than forthcoming means.

          And many of us have spent lifetimes learning and studying and practicing with these tools, weapons and techniques, like both Claude and Max5ty have written about...

          I found myself becoming a minimalist a decade and a half ago.

          If BUY THIS NOW works, then my copy writing is done.

          And I stay out of their heads, and they stay out of mine.

          GordonJ
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

            What so many found out, these PUA's, was...no amount of magic words, NLP, or technique is going to work if you are repulsive.

            The best PUA I ever knew, never wrote a book, but did say this about it: "You want girls to be with you? Be the kind of guy they WANT to be with."

            I'd put that up against all 285 pages of the The Mystery Method. Or all the PUA secrets out there.
            Yup. Reading The Game by Neil Strauss, and living though my young adulthood, I found that these tricks and techniques worked to get a girl into a conversation.....but the huge flaw is...you really aren't anything like the guy she thinks you are. And that reality crashes in pretty quickly. That's why the majority of these Pick Up gurus are still single in their 50s.
            I suspect your library, and my library have a lot in common.






            Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post


            Which brings me back to copywriting.

            The SCAPEGOAT is one of Blair Warren's Hidden Addictions found in FORBIDDEN KEYS, along with these:

            To be needed, or feel like it.
            To have hope, REAL or otherwise.
            To be NOTICED, the real purpose of Social Media, in fact most of the Internet.
            To be UNDERSTOOD.
            OK, I looked on Amazon and E-bay. Is that a book by Blair Warren? A course? Forbidden Keys To Persuasion pulled up a PDF with 140 pages (about). Is that it?
            If you have a source for the book/course, I'd love to know about it.
            Signature
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            Terence Fletcher: "There are no two words in the English language more harmful than Good Job." Whiplash.
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            • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              Yup. Reading The Game by Neil Strauss, and living though my young adulthood, I found that these tricks and techniques worked to get a girl into a conversation.....but the huge flaw is...you really aren't anything like the guy she thinks you are. And that reality crashes in pretty quickly. That's why the majority of these Pick Up gurus are still single in their 50s.
              I suspect your library, and my library have a lot in common


              OK, I looked on Amazon and E-bay. Is that a book by Blair Warren? A course? Forbidden Keys To Persuasion pulled up a PDF with 140 pages (about). Is that it?
              If you have a source for the book/course, I'd love to know about it.
              Claude, I assume it is a book now. What I have is the original course, numbered editions, sent weekly in the mail. It is 142 pages single sided. I suspect the PDF you found is the same thing.

              You will find it informative. What I did, was go through the bibliography, and picked up the books I hadn't read, about half of them. FORBIDDEN KEYS is a good foundation to build on, his story of its origin and cults is useful too.

              It is one of a few books always by my side at the desk. I refer to it almost everyday.

              GordonJ
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  • Profile picture of the author srdjanrepic77
    Although I have kinda mixed feelings about this (especially telling someone who eats a lot it's not the reason they're fat), I have to admit that I've used this strategy several times and I've had decent results with it.

    It's just human nature to find a scapegoat somewhere and run from responsibility and the hard work which is dealing with the problem
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    @Claude - I like your term "throwaway lines"

    I find myself using those but never thought to phrase them like that.

    I'll be in intense negotiations with someone, and when it seems to be getting too intense, I'll say something like, "I'm ready for a beer". I rarely drink, but the line will usually let me gauge the person's character. Often, they'll respond with something like, "me too"...which seems to break the ice and give the perception that we can actually relax and do other things besides talk business...and that I'm not that bad of a guy (haha). Just an example.

    Anyways, after my post about human psychology...

    I opened my email today and saw an email from John Forde (one of the best DM copywriters around), that had this to say that related to the issue I had brought up:

    Generally speaking, I'm not a fan of psychology.

    Let me rephrase that.

    Generally speaking, I'm not a fan of what passes for modern psychology. Meaning, I don't like the contemporary zeal for navel-gazing, self-analysis, or self-labeling.

    In my opinion, thinking obsessively about yourself -- which so much of modern psychology seems to advocate -- is a waste of time.

    Worse, it might even be harmful.

    I don't think, as a rule, we hear each other all that well, or enjoy the present all that much, when we're filling the silence with excessively descriptive theories of the self.

    When someone says "I wanted to treat myself" or "I am [insert brand-new acronym here]" I usually cringe.

    Happiness, I believe, is gained through looking outward. Through progress. And through outwardly directed gratitude.

    With that little rant out of the way...

    The touchy-feely kind of "mind science" I don't like is not, of course, all there is to psychology. Not even close.

    There's plenty offered by the field that could make you a better, more creative, and more intuitive copywriter. Perhaps even a better human being.

    Especially where psychology focuses on "reading minds." That is, where it's designed to give you insights about how people think, particularly in those cases where your subject isn't quite so aware of how or what they're thinking themselves.

    I've written here about a few of them. Daniel Pink, for instance, does a great job in his books. Steven Johnson is another writer with a lot of insight into the minds of others.

    Books like Predictably Irrational, Freakonomics, Blink... they're all glimpses of what goes on behind the eyeballs of our fellow humans. And must-reads for the serious marketer.

    But today, let's take a quick tour of some classic thinkers.

    In particular, three big ones.

    First, where better to start than with that famous Viennese cigar-chomper, Sigmund Freud.

    No doubt, most of what you know about Freud is how obsessed he seemed to be with sex. Also, the struggle between ego and id. In easier terms, your moral and logical compass versus your raw impulses and deeper desires.

    But Freud's ideas go deeper and could be more useful to you, than that over-simple, cartoonish summary.

    You might remember how, in past issues, I mentioned that Freud was the uncle of Edward Bernays, the legendary godfather of public relations and persuasion, and author of the 1928 book, "Propaganda."

    Bernays shaped advertising and political use of the media for most of the 20th century in America. He advised every White House from Wilson to Clinton. And he built his theories largely on what he read in his Uncle Sigmund's research.

    What can you take from Freud as a copywriter?

    At the very least, the understanding that we are absolutely not purely logical beings. We're not even mostly logical.

    Despite being the animal that "thinks," we're mostly dominated by that irrational, impulsive id. When you're writing copy, that's the part of the psyche you're writing to.

    The logical parts of your pitch are just supplemental gravy.

    If you want to take it even further, my friend Michael Masterson (aka Mark Ford) has said that most everything is driven by that innate other obsession Freud talked about.

    That is, our desire to be desirable. It's why we want to earn more money. It's why we want to be stronger, slimmer, have smoother skin, or seem smarter to others.

    Ultimately, we have an irresistible desire to be respected.

    This makes for a good segue to our next legendary mind reader, Abraham Maslow.

    Born to a Brooklyn kid to immigrant parents, bullied and lonely for most of his childhood, he turned to books and study. And got smart enough to show them all.

    Maslow's work really kicked into high gear, though, after the horrors of World War II got him to rethink what motivated people.

    What he came up with differed from a lot of the thinking of the day. He called it "humanistic psychology." And it was through that channel, he came up with his famous "hierarchy of needs."

    You've seen this, I'm sure.

    It's a pyramid showing the driving forces of human behavior, starting with the most basic and ranging to the more profound.

    At the bottom, you've got things like the desire for food, water, shelter, warmth, and a soft bed. And just above that, the desire to feel safe and secure.

    Above that, you've got our need for friends, intimacy, and love. Higher still, you've got the need to feel accomplished and respected.

    At the top, the desire to feel like you've become the best you can be, in all your creative and innovative glory.

    For a copywriter, those insights are indispensable. Every desire your prospects have, for any kind of product, are going to fall into one of those categories. Even if the prospect isn't as aware that these are things that he or she is looking for.

    This leads to mind-reader number three, Victor Frankly.

    You may or may not have read his autobiographical work, "Man's Search for Meaning." If you haven't, you should.

    The message, of course, is so much bigger than what we usually deal with here. And the setting in which it was set, a far more serious and painful one.

    Frankly was an Austrian psychiatrist who was already working on his theories about human motivation when the Nazis annexed his country in 1938. He treated their victims until 1940 when he was swept up and send to a concentration camp.

    It was there that literal life-and-death struggles helped finalize his theory that meaning -- a central, guiding purpose for living -- is the single most powerful human motivator.

    Without a guiding purpose, we give up.

    Again, so much more than a copywriting insight. But, when it comes to hidden deeper desires, this is the deepest.

    You might think you're just selling a financial tip sheet, a new vitamin, a real estate investment, or some exercise equipment.

    But you're not.

    You're selling purpose. Or at least, the means to make that purpose into something well realized.

    Don't get me wrong, here.

    Am I saying that you shouldn't bother writing copy until you've gotten a degree from Columbia in psychology? No.

    Don't overthink this.

    Good selling is still largely built on trusting your gut. Just understand that you're so rarely selling to a prospect at the most obvious level. The real motivators are usually buried much deeper.

    And often, those deeper desires will at least rhyme with the ones you and I have just talked about above. This is how, for instance, the iPhone came to symbolize its owner's life philosophy. Or why you might splurge for the sleeker, nicer car at the dealership when a more practical one would do just fine.

    To sell, first seek to understand.




    Found it interesting and thought I'd share it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vishwas22
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Shawn Cesar
      Originally Posted by Vishwas22 View Post

      As being a new lad in the copywriting space this is a great post to look into.
      Thanks, Shawn for taking efforts.
      What made the post great is the legends here, I'm feeling like a little kid with a house full of candy.
      I love posts like these, you will always be a better copywriter just by reading the gold here. (and applying what you are learning)
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      • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
        Originally Posted by Shawn Cesar View Post

        What made the post great is the legends here, I'm feeling like a little kid with a house full of candy.
        I love posts like these, you will always be a better copywriter just by reading the gold here. (and applying what you are learning)
        I belong to several copy writing/marketing/influence groups on Facebook, and at all kinds of websites. Almost all of them have a very particular bias, often toward a person, even long dead copy gurus. That is all good.

        But if you raise questions or post responses which are not in line with their primary objective (95% is to sell their stuff), then you get deleted or heavily moderated. In fact several of these sites go out of their way to insult old world masters, and even others.

        At least here, we get different perspectives. There are some very good copywriters and many excellent salespeople here, as well as Internet Marketers. And for the most part, they aren't here to sell you their stuff, although I too have often used my sig file to do so...


        But they take time out of their day to respond and to share their hard earned wisdom and I for one am grateful that they do. A lot of bitchin and moanin bout the good old days here at WF, but there are today, many threads which carry tried, tested and true from the trenches experience being shared.

        It is good to have someone post and NOT take offense at others trying to add, or give a different perspective. All to often, the OP will run away and not come back for a year or two.

        So, thanks to you Shawn, for starting a thread, which may veer a little from the topic, but contains some pretty, pretty, pretty useful information.

        GordonJ
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        • Profile picture of the author Matthew Stanley
          So, thanks to you Shawn, for starting a thread, which may veer a little from the topic, but contains some pretty, pretty, pretty useful information.
          I think I speak for Larry David himself when I say I couldn't agree more. What a fantastic thread.

          And combined with Robert Cialdini's 6 Weapons of Influence:

          1-Reciprocity
          2-Liking
          3-Commitment and consistency
          4-Authority
          5-Scarcity
          6-Social Proof
          One add here which is near and dear to many a WF member's heart: Cialdini's concept of Unity, and how shared identities around something can be a recipe / backdrop for some highly persuasive messaging
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          • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
            Originally Posted by Matthew Stanley View Post

            I think I speak for Larry David himself when I say I couldn't agree more. What a fantastic thread.

            One add here which is near and dear to many a WF member's heart: Cialdini's concept of Unity, and how shared identities around something can be a recipe / backdrop for some highly persuasive messaging
            Thanks Matthew for the reminder.

            Cialdini wrote PRE-SUASION and YES (with co-authors) after a decade of being the go to guy about Influence.

            I found both works to be sort of after thoughts and additions. In Pre-Suasion, his Chapter 11 talks about UNITY, and he refers to an older technique showing how two people think of their connection, with overlapping circles. This was a useful tool to get to self image, etc.

            I actually borrowed this for my work in 1993, showing there is NO connection between a seller and a prospect, to the big overlap between a seller and a multiple buyer whose lifetime value could be 10X the initial investment or more.

            UNITY is a very important mindset in 2021, and in addition to very zealous political groups, it is a glue of many a Facebook page or Membership site too.

            We see, via this thread, that there is a breadth and depth to copywriting that most people never get to know (or in some cases need to).

            But for a lifetime student of human behavior, who not only profits as he goes along, but prospers from the vault of knowledge he can draw from for many years to come, it is important to maintain an ongoing educational mindset.

            Today, there are so many opportunities, with new ones springing up daily, there is ample chance to reconfigure, borrow, repurpose or to use the knowledge and apply it to the NOW.

            Thanks for the Unity reminder.

            GordonJ
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            • Profile picture of the author Matthew Stanley
              I found both works to be sort of after thoughts and additions.
              Very much agree. I find this to be the case fairly often when a nonfiction writer has a breakthrough/seminal work that was decade(s) in the making. Had a similar reaction to Yuval Harari's stuff after Sapiens (ie, felt additive in parts, but nowhere near the impact / insight of his flagship book). Still happy to have read Presuasion, however, for just the reasons you stated (adding to vault of knowledge over time is a nice image for a worthy goal)

              UNITY is a very important mindset in 2021, and in addition to very zealous political groups, it is a glue of many a Facebook page or Membership site too.
              No doubt. The internet's unique ability to foster it only amplifies its impact. And you're right - you see it all over the IM world as well as in countless other facets of life (most recently in the Wall Street Bets Sub-Reddit vis a vis GameStop)
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        • Profile picture of the author Shawn Cesar
          Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

          I belong to several copy writing/marketing/influence groups on Facebook, and at all kinds of websites. Almost all of them have a very particular bias, often toward a person, even long dead copy gurus. That is all good.

          But if you raise questions or post responses which are not in line with their primary objective (95% is to sell their stuff), then you get deleted or heavily moderated. In fact several of these sites go out of their way to insult old world masters, and even others.

          At least here, we get different perspectives. There are some very good copywriters and many excellent salespeople here, as well as Internet Marketers. And for the most part, they aren't here to sell you their stuff, although I too have often used my sig file to do so...


          But they take time out of their day to respond and to share their hard earned wisdom and I for one am grateful that they do. A lot of bitchin and moanin bout the good old days here at WF, but there are today, many threads which carry tried, tested and true from the trenches experience being shared.

          It is good to have someone post and NOT take offense at others trying to add, or give a different perspective. All to often, the OP will run away and not come back for a year or two.

          So, thanks to you Shawn, for starting a thread, which may veer a little from the topic, but contains some pretty, pretty, pretty useful information.

          GordonJ
          I do agree with you on this point,
          The warrior forum is unique because of this, people here share their thoughts and love to give.

          And when you mentioned the old days, I remember reading threads from 2012 or 2010, not sure which year exactly.
          But the guys in the thread talked a lot about the old days, even I wished I could witness these days and live them! They talked about their first experiences in marketing, a lot of them are copywriters and they looked like the hidden experts ... they were members since the forum first got launched, which is really remarkable!

          I guess Mr. Gordon, Mr. Max, and Mr. Claude all were there too along with more old members you know very well. (I feel bad for saying gordon, max, claude ... not sure why)

          And I'm more than grateful to be here.

          Thanks to all of you!
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  • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
    Princess Balestra Drahps Outta The Sky by Parrershoot
    Mebbe Too Late In The Day

    For Nowan's Ass To Be TROOLY SAVED


    Lookin' at that headline from a personal POV, I gotta say I missed out here.

    All this info ... from plenty people I seen bein' smart before ... an' here I am bein' a week late on transformin' its juiciliciousness into brain foddah of a productive natyoore.

    What is intrestin' lookin' on late in the day is how invisible enemies far off been de-focussed into yeah we all here togehtah & we got sumthin' gowin.

    Dontchya jus' find yusself sumplace like that most times?

    Steppin' out into the yonder with conflooence springin' out your steps ... or stymied from lack of undeniable commyoone with the cosmos.

    This is why invitations to be true to self an' free resonate way more than deloodin' yusself in a nightmare world of pure evil.

    Hope for a better tamara ... if'n you got nuthin' else, dontchya jus' want that?

    So here is a magnification of potentialities ... versus plenty immutables ain't bendin' ovah any time soon.

    Evrywan's lives're fulla this space.

    Between what is ... an' what could be.

    Ain't frickin copywritin': it's jus' how it is -- whethah you stressin' 'bout the voloominiciousness of the hi-octane bubbles in your spa pool or sendin' your kids out into the trash pile to hunt for scraps among the supah-toxic waste gonna fill your bellies.

    The reality of plights an' dreams exists before mere words.

    Strip the alphabet away, prolly we would all hear import of dream an' plights closer.

    But hey, I jus' drahppin' outta the sky by parrershoot.

    For sure there are always scapegoat trapdoors openin' up undah our heel-to-to skippin' out stuffs -- an' writah persons may invite us to skip around these tricksy obstacles till we enslaved in a dance akin to an infinitely decorative Gaelic tattoo -- aw, but ain't what counts the frickin' beacons faroff ... whose flames you would gladly swallow jus' to put all naysayers to the sword?

    I so love this post -- pertickuler alla the cool contributions -- an' I love also how nuthin' stood in muh way gettin' here othah than accidental circumstance.



    The vulture's eye shines
    as she flies
    from rot to rot
    because there
    is purpose
    in death
    still kinda
    hot.





    Signature

    Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

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