19 replies
Some say that the work of a copywriter is to rename things...
I'll say that's a bit of an exaggeration but there is a reasonable amount of truth in it.

What are your rules for naming your products/offers/service/etcetera?
Have you change something apparently negligible and see a significant improve in your metrics? For example, I changed 1$ trial--->for 98,2% off and I increased the trial users a 12%
#naming
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
    What you're talking about is reframing an offer. That's certainly within the remit of a copywriter.
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    • Profile picture of the author Artkantos
      What's the difference? I'm not native, so some times it's difficult for me to get some nuances
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  • Profile picture of the author SARubin
    Originally Posted by Artkantos View Post

    Some say that the work of a copywriter is to rename things...
    I've always said the work of a copywriter is to sell things.

    If renaming it helps sell it, then yes, that's part of my work.

    Originally Posted by Artkantos View Post

    What are your rules for naming your products/offers/service/etcetera?
    Have you change something apparently negligible and see a significant improve in your metrics?
    This question is a bit peculiar to me. Testing variables and measuring results has always been a huge part of copywriting.

    Most elements can be tested and measured.
    - Headline (even just one word in the headline)
    - Opening lede
    - Offer
    - Guarantee
    - CTA
    - And more...

    When I write copy I always write different variations of these elements so the testing process is already built into the campaign.
    Because let's face it... only the market can tell us which one works the best.


    I believe testing is a big part of what distinguishes a genuine sales copywriter from a commodity "copy and paste" template driven copywriter.

    But that's just my opinion. (Although I have to believe I'm not the only one)



    Added later: I didn't think it needed to be said, but someone just called me out on it, so I'll say it... We should only test one (1) element at a time so we know which change made the difference.
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    • Profile picture of the author Artkantos
      Originally Posted by SARubin View Post

      I've always said the work of a copywriter is to sell things.

      If renaming it helps sell it, then yes, that's part of my work.



      This question is a bit peculiar to me. Testing variables and measuring results has always been a huge part of copywriting.

      Most elements can be tested and measured.
      - Headline (even just one word in the headline)
      - Opening lede
      - Offer
      - Guarantee
      - CTA
      - And more...

      When I write copy I always write different variations of these elements so the testing process is already built into the campaign.
      Because let's face it... only the market can tell us which one works the best.


      I believe testing is a big part of what distinguishes a genuine sales copywriter from a commodity "copy and paste" template driven copywriter.

      But that's just my opinion. (Although I have to believe I'm not the only one)



      Added later: I didn't think it needed to be said, but someone just called me out on it, so I'll say it... We should only test one (1) element at a time so we know which change made the difference.
      Haha good reminder! Basics are often the most forgotten lessons
      Now that you mention it, how would you conduct testing with so many elements to test? How do you value the metrics, which sample is relevant and with which amount of traffic is relevant?
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      • Profile picture of the author SARubin
        Originally Posted by Artkantos View Post

        Now that you mention it, how would you conduct testing with so many elements to test?
        It sometimes depends on the offer and the medium (and if it's for someone else, it depends on the temperament of that client), but as a general rule I find it's wise to start at the beginning.

        If we're running online ads (PPC, social media, targeted blogs or media outlets) and assuming we know our target market from our 'due diligence' research, the first thing I need to see is a decent click-through rate.

        So I like to test different ads until the numbers start topping out.

        Of course we can always test more ads and different mediums, but at some point we need to move on to the next conversion. So when the numbers from the lead generating ads look pretty good, we move on.


        If we're sending people to a sales page...

        Once we're getting a good CTR, ***from the right targeted audience*** then we can test the stickiness of our landing page...
        *** I'm sure you aready know this, Art, but I had to emphasise this point for anyone reading this who isn't aware of how important it is to know your market. I still see far too many people who only have a vague, generalized, kinda targeted idea of who they think their ideal customer might be. And then they wonder why their conversion rate is so dismal***
        If we get too many targeted people bouncing after only 2 or 3 seconds, then I want to know why.

        Is our page loading OK?

        If yes, then it's probably our headline that's causing the friction (aka breaking the flow) and that's the first thing I want to test.
        Makes no sense to test the Call To Action if nobody's making it past the headline.

        If people are bouncing after 15 or 20 seconds then the headline is probably OK and our opening lede could be causing the friction. And that's the next thing to test

        And so on down the line. I've worked with a few people who used heatmaps on the webpage. And between that, and time on page, we can usually get a pretty decent idea of where folks are dropping off.


        Sometimes it's not about a lack of conversions, but it's about testing things to try and beat the control.


        One neat test we ran with a client who owns a membership site, in the self development arena, was we created a transition landing page.

        It gave people 4 topics they could choose from, to pick their most pressing issue at the moment.

        Money - Health - Relationships - Motivation.

        When they clicked one it brought them to a full (secondary) landing page that was all about that one issue, and how our program could help them with it.

        It was a simple idea I thought of, based on the concept of micro-commitments (if we get someone to take part in the sale by moving forward with their own decisive actions, they're more likely to continue moving forward).

        Plus it was more personalized. When they landed on the second page is was all about the one thing they chose instead of generalized self-improvement.

        It was a neat test and when the numbers came in it wasn't a grand slam by any means, but it did make a few sales and it got a whole lot more sign ups for the email marketing campaigns. So it wasn't a total flop either.

        To wrap up this slightly long winded reply... There's so many different things that can be tested and tweaked. It really depends on where you're at, where the friction in the sales process is presenting itself, and your (or your clients) tolerance for trying new things that have a high likelihood of success.


        Originally Posted by Artkantos View Post

        How do you value the metrics, which sample is relevant and with which amount of traffic is relevant?
        Hard to give a generalized number. It really depends.
        But I usually like to have at least 1000 sets of eyeballs see the piece before making any judgements about the numbers. (maybe more, maybe less, until a pattern emerges).
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    We should only test one (1) element at a time so we know which change made the difference.

    I'm glad you mentioned that...it is perhaps one of the most often ignored practices.


    Many times I've advised someone to 'change only' a title or one line of an ad...to test it.....and gotten a message back that 'I went ahead and changed the whole thing and it's not working any better.' (sigh)



    Testing and tweaking is not something any good marketer ignores.
    Small changes - a word, a phrase, adding bullet points or white space.... - can make a huge different in response but it needs to be done in a planned sequence so you can measure each change.
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    • Profile picture of the author SARubin
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      Many times I've advised someone to 'change only' a title or one line of an ad...to test it.....and gotten a message back that 'I went ahead and changed the whole thing and it's not working any better.' (sigh)
      Sigh indeed, Kay... Sigh indeed.

      With that one word you just expressed the great frustration, and exasperation, that leads to resignation.
      It's the feeling that haunts us when we try to give advice to a person who just doesn't get it.


      Like when someone says "I tried advertising once and it didn't work. So that means advertising doesn't work".

      And of course they're right. For them advertising doesn't work. (sigh)
      .
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
    Originally Posted by Artkantos View Post

    What's the difference? I'm not native, so some times it's difficult for me to get some nuances
    Reframing is looking at a situation from a different perspective. In some cases that can entail renaming, but it's not really the name that matters. Taking your example:

    Originally Posted by Artkantos View Post

    For example, I changed 1$ trial--->for 98,2% off and I increased the trial users a 12%
    This would be an instance of reframing the offer to focus on the level of discount rather than the end price. You found that highlighting the saving proved to be more attractive than simply listing a low price. A change of perspective.
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  • All I know 'bout renamin' is how tweakin' an' twerkin' should nevah be confoosed.


    So watch for them typos, copywritah people ...
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    • Profile picture of the author Artkantos
      Or missing the f in shifts or adding a g where you shouldn't in donuts! Haha
      Actually would be a cool thread: Funniest typos
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    • Profile picture of the author SARubin
      Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

      All I know 'bout renamin' is how tweakin' an' twerkin' should nevah be confoosed.


      So watch for them typos, copywritah people ...
      Ah yes, typos.

      Thanks to things like spell check and auto correct, I have found myself getting a bit sloppier with my propers.

      Add to that, the hard partying sins of my youth are beginning to catch up to me (cognitive decline, it seems, is no longer just an abstract concept)

      That's why, when I write something important, these day I pay someone else to proof read it and check for things like typos and grammar errors (syntax, punctuation, and the like)

      Of course when I write something on a social platform, like this forum, I don't often check for such things.

      That said, if anyone ever finds any typos, grammar errors, or improper English in my posts, consider them as my free gift to you. (unless you feel the need to point them out to me. In which case I'll be inclined to charge you double for them )
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    Lots of good answers that are based on experience already.

    There are copywriters that are asked to name a product etc. Some are good at it, I suck at it. I can't even name a kitten we get because I'm not good at names. Never have been good at names and I'll admit it.

    It does sound like you're talking about testing though.

    As has been said, you need to make sure you have the right audience.

    The headline is first to be tested, and then the offer.

    But, I've talked about this before...what is most important is the emotional aspect...and that can be tested.

    I've seen so many times when a piece is so far out of whack with the emotional feelings of the audience that it has no chance to succeed.

    "Discounted tickets to Fiji" or...

    "Pack your bags, we're off to Fiji" are subtle differences in emotion, but can mean the difference between failure and success.

    A lot of experience and research will tell you what emotion your audience will get excited about.

    It's been said that headlines are 80% of your ad draw. I'll agree with that, but say that the emotional aspect of your headline is all of the 80%.

    The biggest changes I've made over the years...whether writing for the cosmetics industry, food industry, etc., is, how do I want you to feel when you read this?

    Do I want you to feel like you've never used it, or ate it...or do I want you to feel like you're thinking about it?...or do I want you to feel like you will feel after you eat it, wear it, etc.?

    I'm all about writing for emotions. It's the biggest secret to advertising success.

    If you can learn to bring emotions into your ads, you'll score big
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    • Originally Posted by max5ty View Post


      I'm all about writing for emotions. It's the biggest secret to advertising success.

      Between kiss an' flee
      are all shades
      of feels
      'pon which
      we may
      agree.
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    • Profile picture of the author Artkantos
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      Lots of good answers that are based on experience already.

      There are copywriters that are asked to name a product etc. Some are good at it, I suck at it. I can't even name a kitten we get because I'm not good at names. Never have been good at names and I'll admit it.

      It does sound like you're talking about testing though.

      As has been said, you need to make sure you have the right audience.

      The headline is first to be tested, and then the offer.

      But, I've talked about this before...what is most important is the emotional aspect...and that can be tested.

      I've seen so many times when a piece is so far out of whack with the emotional feelings of the audience that it has no chance to succeed.

      "Discounted tickets to Fiji" or...

      "Pack your bags, we're off to Fiji" are subtle differences in emotion, but can mean the difference between failure and success.

      A lot of experience and research will tell you what emotion your audience will get excited about.

      It's been said that headlines are 80% of your ad draw. I'll agree with that, but say that the emotional aspect of your headline is all of the 80%.

      The biggest changes I've made over the years...whether writing for the cosmetics industry, food industry, etc., is, how do I want you to feel when you read this?

      Do I want you to feel like you've never used it, or ate it...or do I want you to feel like you're thinking about it?...or do I want you to feel like you will feel after you eat it, wear it, etc.?

      I'm all about writing for emotions. It's the biggest secret to advertising success.

      If you can learn to bring emotions into your ads, you'll score big
      The job of a good copywriter is not to explain or teach, but convey to your audience that you understand them, tap into their pains and make them feel that you can help them the best possible way...And all that happens in the realm of emotion not of logic. Really good note!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
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    Originally Posted by Artkantos View Post

    Some say that the work of a copywriter is to rename things...
    I'll say that's a bit of an exaggeration but there is a reasonable amount of truth in it.
    If memory serves, I think it was Copywriter Victor Schwab who re-named some of the Chapters (etc,) in the book "How To Win Friends And Influence People" ... (I know he definitely created the Direct Response Sales Page.) Anyway, yeah I think there's a lot of Opportunity for Copywriters to "re-name" things.

    P.S.
    Sometimes when naming a Product ― I think including something of a "Benefit" can be good practice. For example: "DoubleYourDating", "CatchHimAndKeepHim", "Wake-UpProductive".
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    • Profile picture of the author Artkantos
      I check that data and indeed, Victor Schwab worked in that great book. It's amazing how well Carnegie surrounded himself. Good point with the benefit inside the product hehe, Hormozi suggests that a good rule of thumb for naming your promotions, programs and similar is MAGIC:

      Magnet: Make a Magnetic Reason
      Avatar: Announce the Avatar
      Goal: Give them a goal
      Interval: Indicate a time interval
      Container: Complete with a container word

      As many of these 5 as possible, but not all are necessary, for example: Free 6 weeks lean by Halloween challenge, 88% off 12 week bikini blueprint, etcetera...
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      • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
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        Originally Posted by Artkantos View Post

        Magnet: Make a Magnetic Reason
        Avatar: Announce the Avatar
        Goal: Give them a goal
        Interval: Indicate a time interval
        Container: Complete with a container word
        Cool. : ) Thanks for the share.

        [Added=] I also think that "curiosity" can be a great motivator. For example I love the Book Title: "Secrets Of The Millionaire Mind". (Great book also by the way.)
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  • Profile picture of the author Artkantos
    Top book and insane marketing; sadly I must say that I got really disappointed with some of their programs, I think they are not worth what I paid for them...I think I would have learnt more modeling them than with their courses
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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
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      Originally Posted by Artkantos View Post

      Top book and insane marketing; sadly I must say that I got really disappointed with some of their programs, I think they are not worth what I paid for them...I think I would have learnt more modeling them than with their courses
      Are we talking about the same Book by T. Harv Eker? I didn't know He/They had other Courses/Products/etc. However I learned a lot from the Book. : ) That said ― you made a good point about observing/learning from how other People/Gurus Market.
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