Can a relatively poor English writer become a copywriter?

Joseph, you can outsource your writing projects if you do not feel well about your English.

I liked your English on Make Money Fast website. Well done!

Why not do copywriting in your native language? I am sure that there is Direct mail used there - and websites!

If you think you can become a copywriter, then you can. Your English in "Make Money Fast" quite good. Just keep learning...

Regards,
Revolves

In a word, 'No'.

Sorry.

It's not about grammar - copywriters break grammar rules all the time - it's about being a master craftsman with words. Aint gonna happen with a foreign language.

Having said that, you could probably pick up some work creating English versions for non-English speaking clients.



AC

Why not?

No one is born with a natural ability to write sales messages.

It takes a lot of education + practice.

The fact that you are already writing your own sales copy
is an important first step. Just keep practising and honing.

Your own sales will tell you if your copywriting is getting better.

Good luck!

On a last note, I make grammatical mistakes all the time.

I admit I'm not a natural with it. And I often spot my
mistakes only on the 2nd...3rd...4th...revision.

That said, sometimes, you can sacrifice grammar for the
sake of better communication.

For example, we are taught in school never to start a
sentence with the words "But", "And" and "Because".

But of course in copywriting, we do that all the time.

Because that's simply how we talk in real life.

And copywriting is about effective, "face-to-face" communication.

My $0.02.

Jag

Yes, you can become a solid English copywriter.

No, it will not be as easy as someone who is a native English speaker.

But it's really up to you. If you want to write copy then with years of hard work, practice and study (in that order) you can become a great copywriter.

But if your goal is just to sell products effectively then it is much easier to hire someone to do it for you. Seriously. If you want to earn $10K/mo, then paying someone $10K for a sales letter amounts to 1 month of your working time. For you to create a solid English sales letter will take you years of work. Which is cheaper? Yeah, I thought so.

Hi Joseph

I believe, YES.

But with one major "BUT" ...

... someone with English as their second language needs to work a bit harder, to get to the stage where they can craft their words to have a natural "flow".

Right now, I am training a couple of people to become copywriters who don't have English as a first language (like yourself), and I've given them a couple of daily exercises where they PRACTICE to improve their sentence structure.

Yes, it can done... it just takes more time, and practice.

I also recommend that, when they start writing copy, they get an EDITOR... but importantly, someone who also understands the flow of copy (not just a book editor) ... to edit their work.

This will only cost them a small fraction of the copywriting fees they can earn... yet it will ensure their copy is clear to English speakers, and flows - assuming they did hire someone who understands the nature of copy writing.

Heck, most magazines and book authors have editors.

So my short answer is YES... if you're willing to put in a bit more time and effort towards improving the flow of your language... and, especially for your first several sales letters... hire an editor who knows and understands the nature of copywriting.

Sorry to repeat myself but again, no.

Let me tell you some things I've learnt about the English language...

Moving to Malaysia (I'm in East Malaysia, on Borneo Island) I had numerous people tell me I should take up teaching English. For fun, I looked into it.

Trust me native English speakers - it aint until you consider trying to TEACH English do you really get what a pig-awkward language it is.

Forget rules. For every rule in English there's about 10 exceptions, not to mention turns of phrase that have nothing to do with rules but sound awful when done wrong.

Also the sheer mass of the language.

It's HUGE!

While the Romance and Germanic languages are considered word-heavy, with around 100,000 commonly-used word, English is by far the largest, at almost 1 million words.

Yes, yes, yes, most people will only use a fraction - but the fact remains it's vast compared to other languages. You can say the same thing 3 different ways, with 3 different meanings, each of which is "correct". Not to mention the countless ways of screwing it up.

Quick example - my wife is a university lecturer, I met her while she was studying for her PHd in the UK. Before then she spent a few years studying in America. She lectures in English, she writes papers in English. She's been learning English since she was a teenager, she's now the Assistant Dean of a major university (and yes I'm proud as all heck).

She STILL doesn't speak English like a native - I have to correct her papers all the time.

That's just the 'correct' stuff.

Now consider that copywriters like myself and others here are paid thousands of dollars because we're GOOD at this stuff, better than the native speakers themselves at selling by words.

English words.

Can a non-native speaker get good at English? Sure, eventually. Ludwig Von Mises comes to mind. He was so good with the big words that most natives couldn't understand him. However copy is more like becoming their best friend, the famous guy in a bar thing - but with skill.

Don't get me wrong, you could learn enough to sell your own products. Sell yourself as a copywriter though and I know what will happen. Clients will throw your work back at you and tell you your English is crap, even if your copy would sell better than theirs because you know what you're doing.

Don't forget that getting and keeping clients is the actual business of writing copy.

It's nice to see positive encouragement on this forum. On this though, it's a mistake.




AC

Hey Alan

How's it going?

One thing to keep in mind, is that writing a university paper, and writing a sales letter, are two completely different creatures.

I occasionally like browsing through peer reviewed journals put out by universities and other academic institutions... and my mind immediately MELTS.

If any copywriter wrote the way those papers are written, the visitor would be clicking away by paragraph 2

Ludwig Von Mises, no matter how great an ECONOMIST he was, would SUCK at copywriting... because if the natives couldn't understand him, then the reluctant prospect, ready to press the "Back!" button the moment he or she reads something they don't like or can't understand... isn't going to give him a second chance.

They're not going to spend their valuable time trying to decode what is being said. Click. They're gone.

The role of a copywriter is to write CLEARLY, and with PASSION.

That can be done by anyone with a reasonable grasp of the English language.

It's up to a COPY EDITOR to then filter it out, to make sure that clarity and passion is preserved.

I would agree with you in the sense that natural English speakers have the advantage.

But I also think it IS possible for someone with English as their second language to gain enough mastery of the English language to write CLEARLY and with PASSION.... as long as they make sure it gets checked and proof-read by a copy editor to give it that crisp, natural English feel.

Copywriters aren't trying to be Von Mises ... except perhaps with their free market economics

OK, for fun, try explaining what you mean by the above sentence, to a non-native speaker?

Obviously HOW the conclusion was reached is clearly laid out in the post, with a blinding example (someone who actually teaches Masters degrees in English but still can't speak like a native) My studying of the English language with a view to teaching it, plus the fact copywriting is a matter of master word-craft, beyond the abilities of even native speakers.

Yet you say it's beyond you. The word beyond means... what? Go ahead and explain?

What's a "blanket conclusion"?

What do you mean by "on Earth"? As opposed to what?

Presumably, you mean one of these:

Farther along in space or time or degree to you?
On the farther side from the you?
In addition to you?

Or prehaps you mean the preposition - not within the scope of you?

I'm guessing you mean that last one, that the post was outside your understanding, even though you're a native English speaker - and you're telling someone who isn't, that they can call themselves a professional copywriter?

Why?


AC

Hi Paul

Sure, IF they have a pro look over their work, but that wasn't the question.

Yes, Mises, or my wife, write like they're trying to send you to sleep. My point is you can't write like that unless you have a damn good grasp of the language - but even at that level, they can't write like a native.

OK, maybe I'm answering the wrong question...

See, I'm answering the question 'can a non-native English speaker pass themselves off as a native, and make a living as a copywriter?' To that, no.

Can they sell their own products? Yes, absolutely.

Can they learn more about copy than the average Joe? Of course.

As I said, they may be able to write, indeed with clarity and passion, copy that WOULD outsell the average Joe's home scribblings. However as I added, that's not the point.

Because (yeah I know lol) copywriting is a business, which means clients, which means convincing THEM first.

We (copywriters) all know how tough it can be at times, to get people to do what works. Take the 'long v short copy' classic, or simply "No, the price doesn't need to be above the fold.. sorta stuff.

Now try doing that when the prospect can tell you're not a native English speaker?

And they will tell.

That was the other thing (knew there was something) I forgot to mention I've learnt about English while travelling around Asia. Most Americans, even some Europeans, think that English is "easy" and that everyone "should" speak it.

As such, the harsh reality is that most prospects would rather write their own copy than consider hiring a non-native to write it.

The first thing you have to sell as a copywriter is yourself. Them's the apples.



AC

One thing would definitely help.

Take a conversational style sales letter, like the ones put out by Frank Kern, or David DeAngelo (Eben Pagan), my two personal "hey, I'm speaking to you like a friend" favorites.

Then write them out, WORD FOR WORD.

Actually, this is a great exercise for ANY copywriter (or aspiring copywriter)... when you copy out something word for word, you start to make the words and phrases your own.

They get into your brain.

Do this for an hour or so a day, and you'll not only pick up some extra copywriting skills, but over time you'll naturally find yourself starting to write using the same sentence structures.

Also, try having "writer's block" after doing that for an hour

Buy the right hair cream and your dream will become a reality.

But that's a different sales letter...

The simple answer is NO. You can't be a copywriter with relatively poor English. And it's not about the grammer 'cos copywriters break those rules more often than you can imagine. But your English isn't that poor and I have definitely seen worse copies than the one you wrote.

All you gotta do is write something that is simple, precise and clearly states what you are trying to say. And I am not sure if watching American T.V shows will ever improve the way you write.

Joseph, whether it mastering copywriting in English or in your native tongue, your efforts in practicing will translate into the degree of mastery you have in the field. Everyone has to start somewhere: even a brain surgeon must have had his or her first surgery.

At the end of the day, it's - to quote Tony Buzan - learning with every try.

Treat copywriting as important as anything else that you do - not just another fad in making money fast.

Bear in mind that grammatical rules come as tools in your copywriting arsenal. Besides that you have the play of words, graphics and formatting. You may also need to develop a 'creative/graphics eye'. And then you'll need to understand the marketing and pshcyographical side of the whole process: market psychology and behaviour. All, with time and practice, would come together.

In the words of Joe Vitale and Bob Bly, before you can break any rules, you need to know what they are first.

Practice, Joseph, and learn with every try. Good luck!

Hey guys, thanks for the advice.

I'll give copywriting a try in the near future. For a start, I can try writing WSOs for myself.

Grammar is not much important, but you got to make sure whenever you are breaking a rule, you are doing it to make the overall content better. Copywriting is not always about being good with the words, rather its more importantly about being able to read the reader's mind and present the required info in a believable way.

Nope.

Because copywriters work with feelings as much, if not more then, ideas.

When non native english copywriters try to appeal to the feelings of their target market (already a difficult thing to identify) they think the words in their native language that inspire those feelings then they try to translate. They then have to make approximations of the right words to use.

A simple example would be the word "love". In english, when we hear the word we think of all the feelings,ideas, images etc that we associate that word with.
However, when I think of the french word for love "amore" it inspires a very different set of feelings because it has associations with expressions from french culture. Film noir, experiences I've had in the city of Montreal, etc.

If I am trying to appeal to my prospects feelings, how can I expect to do that with approximate associations?

Sure you could be technically proficient, but to the best of my understanding there is alot more to copy writing then that.

And thats just one reason!

Languages and how people interpret them is an incredibly complex experience. Its not just about translations, if it were anyone could translate popular poetry from other languages and have it be a complete success. However, it is only those who have years of experience and a deep understanding of both languages that are successful. They are rare and exceptional people with highly intuitive mental facilities.

I could go on...but...I'm late for a commitment.

The problem is that its not just the words that inspire the feelings, its the combination of the words.
We are not talking about a technical subject, we are talking about an art form.

Oh, I really think it depends on whom you are selling to. If you are selling to Volvo driving corporate yuppie types, then imperfect English is a huge turnoff. It makes the copy come off as amateurish and gives the impression that you are a huckster out to make a quick buck from a "rich yankee".

On the other hand, if you are selling to the semi-literate masses who comprise 80% of the rest of the English speaking world, it's probably not going to be a big deal since most can barely write in their own language anyway.

I think it really depends. A copywriter can be a juxtaposition of a craftsman and a good writer. I think that a copywriter MUST know the fundamental basics of writing a good article or an Ad. Just think for a moment... How many times have you been turned off and away from a product just because the AD was TERRIBLY written? I have met MANY native English speakers that have horrible writing skills, while at the same time I have come across a lot of second language English speakers who can write better than native speakers.

No, a relatively poor English speaker cannot become an English copywriter.

Joseph, you could improve your English copywriting. But I think a couple other options might be easier paths to success for you.

One option is to hire a native, fluent English speaker to proofread your sales letters. Have the person not just change things to standard English, but also explain the meaning of the standard phrase and why your version means something different.

Your editor could email you the marked-up version, and take an hour or two to go over it with in a Skype call. You can then choose where to convert your version to standard English. In other places, you might like to go with your own wording to express more of your personality and individual style.

The challenge here is that you are going up against some of the most masterful artisans of English, in one of the most competitive marketplaces ever in human history. Any little thing that feels "off" may make your prospects just move on to the next letter, where everything feels "just right."

I see Alan's point, although I wonder if he came on too strong. It is possible to study and learn many of these techniques. But it is so much harder if you didn't grow up and have a lifetime immersed in the way your prospects talk. It's a challenge similar to learning how to play the guitar at age 50. You might get good, but you don't have enough years of practice left to match what Eddie Van Halen was doing at 20.

This would not be as much of an issue outside of the IM/make money niche.

The other option that I think might be even better for you: focus on content creation. That sales letter shows a very detailed, analytical, comprehensive type of thought process at work. If I was interested in the subject, I would love to see that kind of language in a step-by-step how-to guide, with or without further proofreading. Although there were some emotional appeals, the main focus of the letter was to go over all the facts of the matter from every angle. That is absolutely perfect for a complete reference guide, or an article, or a script for a teaching video. I think this could be a stronger area for you to quickly make money.

I think you might have great success as a content creator, if you team up with a great copywriter. Let the copywriter use the million strange ways to be emotional in English and get the sale. Let you express the detailed view of the subject that will make the buyer glad they bought!

Also look for the War Room thread about selling to introverts. If you do want to make your own sales letter, the insights in that thread might help you find a niche where calm explanations are move valuable than the latest razzle-dazzle. (Would you have even thought of the term "razzle-dazzle" there? It popped into my mind instantly as a way to express my mental image of fireworks over a circus tent.)

Chris

Dan Lok's copy is pretty darned persuasive, but from what
I'm seen, his command of English grammar is spotty.

He's a fine copywriter anyway. I haven't studied his stuff
much but I did run across a few salesletters that impressed
me with their energy... and flawed English. I was a little
surprised how easy it was for me to overlook the errors.

He's probably improved since then. I expect his recent
copy is more polished.

My advice: if you feel your English is poor, read more book s in that language. It'll certainly improve your vocab and you'll get a grip how to express yourself in English

I have two points to raise:

On the positive side; we have all seen adverts for a hundred articles for $50 or whatever. People offering these jobs almost assume a good edit is necessary when the work comes back. I am not saying you are only fit for this type of work but certainly if you stick to the cheaper end of the market you may stand out as having a higher quality and start to pick up work. All that work will also improve your copywriting skills.

On the negative side: Good copywriters often employ rich expressions and have a real depth of vocabulary to spice up their text. As a second language speaker you are less able to compete on this score and therefore I would avoid jobs that need this injection of creativity. Perhaps picking your sphere well would help - maybe technical sectors which tend to use more straight forward English.

Like anything else, the English language can be studied and mastered. I work with a wide variety of people both online and at a PT job. In the latter, I'd say I work with about 7 different distinct nationalities: Albanian, Italian, Polish, Mexican, Guatemalan, Puerto Rican, and American. It makes for an interesting time and for some interesting observations.

1) People in foreign countries are far more accustomed to learning other languages than their native tongue. Americans without travel don't have the need or the exposure.

Example: 7 adults on our staff are from Europe. Each adult speaks a minimum of 3 languages, 2 of them are fluent in 5.

The people of Hispanic descent all understand and fluently speak Spanish English and Italian.

The Americans speak English, and a couple of us can speak limited Spanish.

2) Your propensity to learn any language including English should be anchored by the fact that it won't be an overnight process.

Can you become a copywriter? Yes. You have the groundwork, you need to research English Linguistics. Try reading poetry and lyrical verse, as it will help develop rhythm. Study the differences between speech delivery by environment: how people talk for business, the slang they use when relaxing, trends in language usage.

Treat it as a learning process. Every business person and writer here knows that English means continually learning and understanding new things. Language evolves with society, the same as anything else. Try, test and try again.

Don't give up but be realistic. Set goals that are achievable. I wish you the best in your endeavor- and I admire your passion.