"From the desk of" - Does that really work? | Warrior Forum - The #1 Digital Marketing Forum & Marketplace

16 years ago

I find it a little goofy. I seldom use a salutation in letters,
though sometimes clients like to put them in. I feel it
wastes valuable space and readers don't care and some
will see it as disingenuous.

Depends on the niche though. In direct mail salutations
can be effective. The attention phenomenon in direct
mail works differently than with web-letters though.

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James12C

16 years ago

It's so pompous, isn't it? Sort of thing that would come from a Readers Digest executive.. When did it start?

J

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Mrs S

16 years ago

You're right - it does sound very Readers Digest. I'm not a big fan of Dear Friend either. I suppose the effectiveness of either really depend on the niche and how web savvy the audience is.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 16 years ago

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dtendrich 16 years ago

Hey,

I think it's like anything - it's more "how" you use it as opposed to whether or not it objectively "works" or not. When used right I think it adds a lot to a sales letter - when used wrong it adds to the phoniness of it (but it was probably already really phony from the start, regardless of this line).

David
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dannyadams

Banned 16 years ago

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David Raybould

16 years ago

Originally Posted by dannyadams

If you were selling computers and you mailed to a group of people who just got a check for $1,000 and their computer just crashed, you'd convert like crazy no matter what was in the copy. On the other hand, if you hired a $50,000 copywriter and mailed to a group of people who just left best buy with a brand new IMac in their hand, you wouldn't sell a thing.

Sure, but if you hired the $50k guy
for the first mailout, you'd convert
even crazier, guaranteed.

The traffic and market is crucial, but
when you hire the right writer, you'll
get the maximum profits possible from
that traffic.

Also, if you did hire the expensive writer
to work on the IMac promo, he'd advise
you on exactly what to pitch them to
make a killing.

The best copywriters are also marketing
wizards, so they'll help you sculpt every
single thing, even the product.

It's not smoke and mirrors. Good writers
get paid a mint because they make their
clients even more.

-David Raybould

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BrianMcLeod

16 years ago

Originally Posted by David Raybould

The best copywriters are also marketing
wizards, so they'll help you sculpt every
single thing, even the product.

It's not smoke and mirrors. Good writers
get paid a mint because they make their
clients even more.

-David Raybould

A huge point and an enormous part of the value equation for working with a top-gun copywriter.

You're not getting words - you're getting a SALES MESSAGE.

And a sales message cannot exist in a vacuum.

The visual presentation...
The product and deliverables...
The positioning in the marketplace...

All of these and more have a very direct impact on the bottom line.

Whether or not your letter opens with "From the desk of" notwithstanding.

I've written many with it and many without it. If it feels right and works with the flow, use it. If it doesn't work, don't force it in because somebody else's tests show that "it converts better..."

How many times can one say "Test it for yourself"?

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dannyadams

Banned 16 years ago

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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

@Montello - Every copywriter I've ever spoken too makes it out to be much more important than it really is.

Then you're talking to amateurs or con men.

I've been doing this a while and I never oversold the copywriting aspect. I've trained approximately a dozen other copywriters and as far as I know none of them have either.

You need to keep better company.

Either that... or the people you speak to are making copy out to be EXACTLY as important as it is, and you refuse to accept it.

It's one or the other.

Danny... I had to jump back into this post and add something.

I just read through some of your other responses here and man... no offense but you really must be pretty new at this, huh?

I have no idea how good writers are "typical" in your mind. I also haven't a clue where you're getting this "typical" 3% conversion thing.

If you believe either of those things then man o man... you need to take a class or 10 on marketing online.

Sure... there are 50,000 of the same sales letter online. Those are the hacks.

And there isn't anything close to a "typical" conversion online in 2010. And even when there was a "typical" that got bandied about by professionals it was closer to 1% and those professionals later admitted they were wrong.

I've got clients converting at 11% and making okay money... and others getting rich converting at .78%.

Every product... every niche... every pricepoint... every audience is different.

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dannyadams

Banned 16 years ago

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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

Originally Posted by dannyadams

I know how important it is from my own testing. If I use the same old "rules" copy that is spread around the internet like the swine flu, my numbers are around 3% like everyone else's.

This whole "like everyone else" thing is crap. Show me numbers on this. You pulled this number out of (I'll be clean) thin air.

I follow people who have been writing copy for 40 years like Bob Bly and David Garfinkle.

Good... I was personally trained by david for 18 months. Give him a call and tell him your 3% theory. He could use a laugh.

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dannyadams

Banned 16 years ago

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MontelloMarketing 16 years ago

Can we assume from your response that the typical 3% number was completely fabricated on your part? And really what you wanted to say was that the top letters on clickbank all convert "okay" and to represent "okay" you invented 3%?

Can you at least admit that?

Don't get me wrong. I still know for a fact that the top letters (many of which I've written or my students have written) convert all over the map. You just need to admit the truth because well...

Frankly...

There are a lot of young impressionable wanabees on this forum. They see someone like you spouting off like they know something and they will blindly believe you.

You wouldn't want that would you? You wouldn't want to be the one responsible for having someone believe you're preaching gospel when it's just stuff you made up, right?

Right?
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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

Originally Posted by dannyadams

You should also use some of your "skills" here on the forum. You seem very defensive. I'm not trying to start a fight with you...I'm just saying that my testing shows that when you don't try and oversell something, with the same traffic, I convert better as opposed to the "rules" stuff.

You haven't even earned the right to bring up my "skills" in public.

I am defensive. I'm defending the sensibilities of warriors.

Overselling is bad. If you had started and stopped there I'd have no problem. I wouldn't have said a word. But you're turning "Hey this is what I noticed on my 3 little products (or however many you've done)..." into "This is FACT." And talking like that shows how many shades of green you are.

I see you're pretty new to the WF... and very new to this particular forum. You'd probably learn a lot more if you sat back quietly and listened instead of trying to teach.

We here in this forum have no problem being "schooled" but you have to have the degree to even try.

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dannyadams

Banned 16 years ago

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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

Originally Posted by dannyadams

So because I'm new HERE I have no right to speak?

Not the case at all. My comment had nothing to do with your "newness."

What I am saying is FACT based on MY TESTING.

And all I'm saying... and have been saying is that what you have is "evidence" based on your testing of your products. None of these are industrywide facts. Nothing you've spoken about cuts across the clickbank board. Niches, sub-niches... none of them have a "typical" conversion.

What are your "facts" based on? I would assume they are based on YOUR TESTING and results.

My "facts" are based on knowing that your "facts"... aren't. What I'm saying is you are throwing around a number that worked out for you. Cool for you. Had you just come in and said, "Hey kids... Johnny Veteran here. I found for my products 3% is average but if I change up the advertising to be fresher and less hypey I do much better.

You didn't do that. You basically said all the top products on clickbank convert at around the same "typical" 3%. And it's horse crap.

I've been writing copy for over 12 years...mostly offline.

Quite impressive. How much on Clickbank though? Because I dont' think you were saying that typical offline copy too converts at 3%. Were ya? I thought we were talking about Clickbank.

I would think that "my 3 little products" which include 3 years writing for GEICO, another 4 for Liberty Mutual and my 6 years of college would mean something.

Okay... me saying "3 little products" was a tad condescending. For that I apologize. Juvenile of me to go there. But Geico, and political campaigns, while impressive can't even be compared to clickbank sales letters. It surely shows you know offline copy... Surely shows you probably know some branding and have a probable long agency history... But again, no Clickbank correlation.

My argument with you was plain and simple...

You spouted a fact that wasn't. You took a myopic view and tried to spout it as law.

That would be like me saying "Hey, I wrote a campaign last week that converted at 12%. I wrote another one 2 months ago that converted around 14%... Therefore the average clickbank product is converting at 13%.

Do you see the problem with your logic?

Let's try it this way, Danny.

I wrote a sales letter with the word "Free" in the headline. It converted at 5%. I took the word "free" out and it converted at 15%. Then I come on the board and say, "Hey cats and kittens... all the letters on clickbank with the word free in the headline typciallyl convert at 5%. But when you remove free they convert at 15%.

I only know my evidence... not all the other letters on clickbank. I can't say what is typical because I don't have enough evidence.

Capice?

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dannyadams

Banned 16 years ago

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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

Tsk tsk tsk. I had high hopes for you Danny. But go your own way. That's fine. The thread will stand on its own. Hopefully the readers will figure it out on their own.

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dannyadams

Banned 16 years ago

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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

LOL... danny... for someone with so many years behind him you're very immature. Everyone here knows who I am... and why I'm here. And it's not to build up anything.

But like I said... I had high hopes for you. I now see I was giving you too much credit.

Ciao.

PS - You know I try to move on but some people get under my skin. Anyway... how dare you say you're the one trying to tell anyone the truth when the fact is your little 3% ruse was a fairytale based in nothing but your own anecdotal evidence, not truth. If you would have just admitted the only "typical 3% was your own testing and not the 'typical' of anyone else on clickbank all would be fine. You know it... I know it. If you just admit it then all's good.

You know you want to. You know you're dying to just say, "Aw shucks guys... I came in a little too sure of myself and kinda misspoke... sorry."

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dannyadams

Banned 16 years ago

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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

Originally Posted by dannyadams

And I am certainly NOT the immature one. We disagreed. I tried to tell people on here to LEARN how to write copy...save their money and do it for themselves. You, obviously trying to pick up clients, started to attack me. I simply pointed out something that was on your profile.

Of course you're not the immature one... as proven by this entire thread. LOL

And the sad part is...

You actually have a pretty decent point to make about originality and going against the herd. I actually teach that. The problem you have is that your message in mired in the fact that you invented a number that didn't exist. All you had to do was say "You know, I have no idea what percentage of conversion any products but mine make, but this works for me." Instead you clung to this bogus 3% thing.

I, on the other hand didn't need any evidence because I wasn't saying a number. I was (And am) saying there is no "typical" on clickbank when it comes to conversion. There are plenty of hacks writing sales letters there and elsewhere. And even among them there's no typical conversion.

You clinging for dear life to this 3% thing is what's making you look so bad, dude. Some things aren't worth it. No need to have to save face.

And as for me being here to drum up clients... again... you should know a little of what you speak about because everyone knows me here. I'm booked up many months in advance and most warriors can't afford me, anyway. I come here to help the young ones a bit by making sure they don't just believe made up figures they hear online.

But if you want to continue to blindly attack me while not having the faintest clue about me, go ahead. I'm thoroughly entertained by you.

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Loren Woirhaye

16 years ago

Originally Posted by dannyadams

Hopefully the readers will figure out who the ex-hollywood tv writer turned "copywriter" is and hopefully they figure out that most of them, with a little time and effort, can write their own copy BETTER than most anyone else and it will cost them nothing but time.
.

With due respect,

That's a pretty ridiculous statement for a skilled writer
to make. All writing is hard work. Copywriting isn't the hardest
type to do well, admittedly, but it takes a lot of work to write
an effective letter for most people, even ones who could write
capable prose to start with. I've read dozens of books on
copywriting and persuasion, got a BA in English Lit, and I still
grunt and sweat when I write copy. I'm talented, well-read
on the topic, disciplined, smart, and it's still darned hard work.

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dannyadams Banned 16 years ago

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- Loren Woirhaye 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by dannyadams
  
  I'm not a professional writer. I wrote copy for 12 years for a number of different fortune 500 companies but I am far from a professional writer.
  
  Is it just semantics or is it just me? Were you not paid for your
  12 years of wordsmithing... or did you do it for free?
  
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BrianMcLeod 16 years ago

Originally Posted by dannyadams

The RULES are what convert at 3%. Do something different and your conversions will be much better.

The rules convert at 3%, so be sure to do something different.

Check.
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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

While traffic source is a major issue. I've seen it cause a variance in conversion from 2% all the way up to 31% with no other changes to the copy...

While this is 100% true that traffic is a major piece of the puzzle...

Your thesis here isn't right. No matter how hot the market is... no matter how primed to spend they are... no matter how deep their pain that you will be curing...

Crap copy will leave a ton of money on the table.

If you mailed to a group of people whose computers just crashed and they just got checks for a grand...

And you were sending out crap copy...

You'd only convert like crazy if you were the only shmo out there selling computers. And since that has never been the case in the last 20 years and never will be the case in the future, your point isn't made.

The better copy will nearly always outsell the bad copy if all things are created equal. I say "nearly" because sometimes there are anomalies.

And I don't know any copywriter who tries to make anyone think copy is more important than it actually is.

Just remember this...

If you've got a good product... and you've got a good market... Good copy will usually put a ton more money in your pocket than bad copy. If you have a good product in a bad market, nothing will help you.

These are facts.

And none of these facts lead to the point that copy just isn't all that important.

Originally Posted by dannyadams

I honestly think conversions are based much more on the traffic source as opposed to the copy. The copy matters but I don't think it matters as much as copywriters make you think.

If you were selling computers and you mailed to a group of people who just got a check for $1,000 and their computer just crashed, you'd convert like crazy no matter what was in the copy. On the other hand, if you hired a $50,000 copywriter and mailed to a group of people who just left best buy with a brand new IMac in their hand, you wouldn't sell a thing.

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Rezbi

16 years ago

"From the desk of" - Does that really work?

That's the question, yet it's followed by a lot of personal opinions.

Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, needs to be tested.

Only then will you know whether or not it works.

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dannyadams

Banned 16 years ago

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MontelloMarketing 16 years ago

Originally Posted by dannyadams

And Yes, Brian...the "rules" do convert at around 3%.

Horse crap.
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Lee Wilson 16 years ago

Originally Posted by dannyadams

I guess you guys can stay at 3% and I'll keep going at around 10%.

Well then why are you wasting time posting in forums. You do realise if your copy can convert over 200% more than those that stick to the rules, you are now the most sought after copywriter in the world?
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"From the desk of" - Does that really work?

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