39 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}
39 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}

Copywriting Coach?

by MrWhistler
29 replies
Hi people,

I'm a writer and I need to break into copywriting. How do I get a mentor/coach? The tips are appreciated.
#coach #copywriting
  • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
    I contacted Vin Montello about a year ago. As I write I'm sat in Starbucks at 6.07am... armed with banana and an Ethos Water... about to make a dent in another mountain of paid work.

    --- Ross
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2660848].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
      Originally Posted by Ross Bowring View Post

      I contacted Vin Montello about a year ago. As I write I'm sat in Starbucks at 6.07am... armed with banana and an Ethos Water... about to make a dent in another mountain of paid work.

      --- Ross
      You're always in Starbucks. Are you on a first name basis yet, or do they just know you as "the crazy bald guy"?



      And I second Vin. His coaching has taken me to the point where I'm booked up until January. Not a bad situation to be in.

      Having said that... in my experience most of the best mentors are both choosy and expensive... so you need to have your stuff together before you start working with them.

      -Dan
      Signature

      Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2669298].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
        Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

        You're always in Starbucks. Are you on a first name basis yet, or do they just know you as "the crazy bald guy"?
        I've got an "in"... the manager is a childhood friend of my wife's... which occasionally grants me the undeserved treat of a free Biscotti.

        But don't get me wrong Dan... I'm not like these fancy pants soy drinkin', three pump, non-fat, no whip, beret wearing (scarf in the summertime) Starbucks' orderers... no, no, no... down to earth Ethos water all the way.

        --- Ross
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2669500].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
        Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

        Having said that... in my experience most of the best mentors are both choosy and expensive... so you need to have your stuff together before you start working with them.
        -Dan
        Right Dan... and it's in your best interests to have your stuff together anyway. That way you can quickly feel the career-making power of mentorship.

        --- Ross
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2669760].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Benjamin Johnson
          Having a mentor absolutely makes all the difference -- I started out mentoring under Kevin Rogers in October of last year, going from raw newbie to booked solid faster than I would have thought possible. And that mentorship has over time transitioned into a partnership (though I'm still learning plenty). Best investment I ever made, hands down.

          Now, you could pick up a lot from courses and books -- and I've gleaned quite a few valuable tidbits from those kinds of sources -- but none of these can give you the kind of accountability and "in the trenches" knowledge that come only with experience.

          And as brilliant as past masters like John Caples, Vic Schwab and Claude Hopkins are... they won't be referring you any clients or giving your draft a life-saving critique when you're up against a deadline.

          I would also add that no matter how successful they may be, it's always to a top freelancer's advantage to nurture new writers along -- the best mentor-student relationships end up being win-win, and in a larger sense than the fee paid for the mentoring arrangement. The best copywriters I can think of working today all teach in some capacity, at least from time to time, and they're not doing it for the money. They're doing it because there's always demand for well-trained writers in this game, and they have to come from somewhere.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2669936].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
            Originally Posted by Benjamin Johnson View Post

            I would also add that no matter how successful they may be, it's always to a top freelancer's advantage to nurture new writers along -- the best mentor-student relationships end up being win-win, and in a larger sense than the fee paid for the mentoring arrangement. The best copywriters I can think of working today all teach in some capacity, at least from time to time, and they're not doing it for the money. They're doing it because there's always demand for well-trained writers in this game, and they have to come from somewhere.
            In my opinion, outside of writing a winning piece of copy yourself, there's no higher form of satisfaction than seeing someone you've helped do well.

            - Rick Duris
            Signature
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2671780].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Kevin Rogers
              That's the truth, Rick. Even better when those you teach become valuable partners on on your projects. In my coaching experience that's where the true learning happens.

              Not until you're dug in the trench with another writer can you really see what he's (or she's) made of. That's why I say there's an incredible shortage of copywriters to handle the work that needs doing out here...

              ... it's a rare combo of right brained whack-job and left brained disciplinarian (almost in equal parts) that can deliver dazzling copy consistently without flying off the rails.

              We've all heard the horror stories of the "most brilliant writer alive" who couldn't sustain a diary, let alone a career.

              So, Ben should also mention that he singlehandedly trashed the expectation curve for anyone I'll ever mentor.

              He went from "I'll do it for $1,000 just for the practice" to partnering on high 5-figure deals in the span of a year. Pretty outrageous.

              I make the same deal with all my coaching students: Commit to 3 months. If I can't trust you with jobs by then, then we're just not right for each other.

              I don't know any mentor worth his salt who profits from his mentoring fees. For me, it's a total loss if the relationship doesn't mature into a partnership. It's gotta be a win-win or there's no point.
              Signature

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2672753].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author MontelloMarketing
                Well said, kev.
                Signature
                The Montello Group
                Copywriting|Publishing|Training
                Your Premier Conversion Cooperative

                Join Us For Free Conversion Webinars
                CLICK HERE!
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2672779].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Hank Rearden
                  The most important thing you can look at, if you want to become a very
                  good copywriter, is the SOURCE of information.

                  For example -

                  Reading Herschell Gordon Lewis instead of Eugene Schwartz... Victor
                  Schwab... Claude Hopkins... even Gary Halbert.

                  And the EASIEST trap to fall into is looking up to a B-level mentor.

                  I want to say - BEFORE I make this point - I have little to no experience
                  with any mentors on this board... their techniques... or the results their
                  students achieve. This is not me "calling anyone out." This is simply a post
                  designed to guide a new copywriter.

                  That being said -

                  You should NEVER accept a mentor who isn't in the position you want to
                  be, eventually.

                  Period.

                  Learning from a B-lister gives you techniques and insights into B-List copy.
                  A good, solid B-Lister can't teach you to write World-Class copy. He does
                  not know how.

                  You're better being "mentored" by books written by the masters. My Life in
                  Advertising, for example, is a book designed to be a mentor. Designed to
                  let you look inside Claude Hopkins' head... and... See HOW, WHY and
                  WHAT he did to create successful advertising.

                  Breakthrough Advertising is another - So many people discount this book
                  as just a "great book on advertising." Bull****. Schwartz wrote it in a
                  brilliant way: When you read and apply it from front to back cover, you've
                  written a sales letter.

                  It's really that simple.

                  And you could go on and on and on...

                  Between AIDA; Get Attention, Show an Advantage, Prove it, Make Them
                  Grasp It, Ask For Action; Problem, Promise, Proof, Proposition; Problem
                  Agitate Solve... etc...

                  ... You'll have more formulas, techniques and strategies to work with than
                  you could EVER master in one lifetime. As soon as you read "The Masters"
                  and "The Classics:"

                  1) Breakthrough Advertising
                  2) How To Write A Good Advertisement
                  3) My Life In Advertising
                  4) Scientific Advertising
                  5) The Robert Collier Letter Book
                  6) Tested Advertising Methods
                  7) How To Win Friends & Influence People
                  8) The Gary Halbert Letters (The Bond Letters - In particular)
                  9) And "The Classic" Ads... WSJ Letter, They Laughed When I Sat Down At
                  The Piano, What You Need To Know About This Stock & Bond Business...
                  etc...

                  Do the leg work. Read The Masters and The Classics. Write the ads out in
                  your own handwriting. Stalk Cosmo, National Enquirer and one magazine
                  that has to do with your prospects.

                  Find the good headlines. Copy them down onto index cards.

                  Find the repeated DM ads. Tuck them away in your swipe file.

                  Sign up for products by Agora, Weiss and any other good company you
                  can think of... Get on good mailing lists. Watch the DM you get in the mail.

                  And at the end of the day - This good, ol' fashioned hard work is all a
                  mentor can give you. Aside from a few tips to shortcut your learning
                  process along the way.

                  I've got a cub right now. He's made more progress in two weeks than I did
                  in two months, at his level. It's all because he has my hand and my
                  guidance to go off of.

                  And this - this EXACT post - is what I would tell him, if he were in your
                  shoes.

                  Good luck.

                  - HR
                  Signature
                  I swear by my life and my love of it that I will
                  never live for the sake of another man, nor ask
                  another man to live for mine.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2700664].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JPROPS
    John Carlton is offering a coaching program called Simple Writing System. He also offers a home study version which is a lot cheaper.
    Signature

    I'm a 37 year old Professional Copywriter & Part-Time Internet Marketer from London, England.
    Are you a product owner or affiliate manager? Check Out JV Attraction Formula and learn how to create an army of JV Partners and Affiliates To Promote Your Product.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2661074].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
      Originally Posted by JPROPS View Post

      John Carlton is offering a coaching program called Simple Writing System. He also offers a home study version which is a lot cheaper.
      While John's courses are good, IMO, there will be a world of difference between the home study version and the mentored version.

      Nothing beats mentoring.

      Having said that, here's what I would point you to right now, especially if you're just starting out: http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...e-payment.html

      And you can't beat the price.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2661481].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jag82
        Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post

        ... there will be a world of difference between the home study version and the mentored version.

        Nothing beats mentoring.
        I'm in 100% agreement on this part.

        A mentor is crucial...because their hindsight
        can become your foresight.

        For me, having a mentor is absolutely crucial
        to accelerating success and minimizing failures.

        It's one thing to read a course, and another to
        consult live...face-to-face...picking the brains
        of an experienced mentor.

        - Jag
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2665046].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
    Originally Posted by MrWhistler View Post

    Hi people,

    I'm a writer and I need to break into copywriting. How do I get a mentor/coach? The tips are appreciated.
    Paul Hancox on this forum has had good feedback.

    Sounds like it's about getting you paid clients as well
    as the copy coaching.

    I think he would love to tell you about it
    but no self promotion is allowed here.

    Anyway, another option for you to work through.

    All the best,
    Ewen
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2661512].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Nicola Lane
    I need to jump in and recommend someone who no-one else in this thread would think of recommending - Paul Hancox - you can find his WSO here:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...heres-how.html
    Signature

    I like to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2662980].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author arfasaira
      Hi

      I am one of Paul's students and am three months in on my coaching.

      (BTW, I haven't been paid to write this )

      My verdict? Jump on this while you can - his feedback is invaluable and he points you in the right direction when you are struggling.

      I have done some of these online copywriting courses you can download for less than $100 and let me tell you this - Paul's course blows them all out of the water. I was amazed at the depth of information in the course, and after each module, you complete an assignment for which you get feedback and pointers to improve.

      I am surprised at how much I have learnt on this course and although I haven't completed it yet, I can already see that the difference between my copy pre-course and now is like the difference between night and day. It's that stark.

      Grab it while you can - and its a lot cheaper than some other copywriting courses which don't even help you get clients. (I can't wait for my first big fish!)

      best regards
      Arfa
      Signature
      "Sales Letter Conversion Rate At 19%??" Get Your Own Kick-Ass Converting Copy Here!
      Need More Clients? Click here...
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2663416].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
        I'm told testimonial comments are verboten, but I must say I really like it when people are acknowledged. - Rick Duris
        Signature
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2663951].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TK1
    Getting mentored is the easiest secret to learn something and become good at it, but it's the most difficult one, too.

    Because:

    Either you get mentored by someone who has time for you, that is 99% of the time somebody who's NOT as successful as he claims.

    OR you get a top notch mentor that's already where you want to be. Problem: Those people either don't have the time to mentor you like you would need to be mentored or they charge skyhigh prices.

    I would recommend you to expand your knowledge with courses and websites, get clients for smaller stuff and save money, than get mentored for big money by the BEST like John Carlton. Wouldn't waste my time with anybody outside of the let's say Top 10 of any profession (hell I would only like to work with the absolute number one).

    TK
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2666174].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
      Originally Posted by TK1 View Post

      I would recommend you to expand your knowledge with courses and websites, get clients for smaller stuff and save money, than get mentored for big money by the BEST like John Carlton. Wouldn't waste my time with anybody outside of the let's say Top 10 of any profession (hell I would only like to work with the absolute number one).
      I agree... but only to a certain extent.

      John Carlton's one-on-one mentoring is $9,999 A MONTH, according to his website.

      Of course that's value for money, without a doubt.

      However, I suspect even John cannot simply "turn out" a great copywriter in the space of a month. He's gifted, but he isn't a miracle worker

      On the other hand: books and courses don't provide their readers/viewers with FEEDBACK, and CORRECTION when they make mistakes, and they don't provide any encouragement, motivation and "hand-holding" that many people need (or at least, think they need).

      And while forums (such as this one) can be immensely useful for the budding copywriter, the advice they get will always be mixed... useful stuff, mixed in with bad advice... sometimes leaving them confused or worse.

      So... WHILE they're saving up for John's $9,999 a month fee, mentoring with someone, even if they're not at Carlton's godlike level, is still a great way to go...

      ... because it provides them a nice, smooth step UP the ladder, where they can get the motivation, encouragement, feedback and consistent correction and advice (not the sometimes contradictory advice of a forum) they need.

      In fact, I'm sure Carlton would much rather mentor someone who was "nearly there", as it were, and has all the essential copywriting skills down pretty well, rather than someone who barely knows how to put together a persuasive sentence.

      Feedback. Motivation. Consistent correction and advice. A sounding board.

      That, in a nutshell, is my case for the "outside the Top 10" mentor.

      It's a quick boost in the right direction, while they're saving up for John's $9,999 a month mentoring.
      Signature
      PresellContent.com - How to sell without "selling"
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2667304].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author arfasaira
      Originally Posted by TK1 View Post

      Getting mentored is the easiest secret to learn something and become good at it, but it's the most difficult one, too.

      Because:

      Either you get mentored by someone who has time for you, that is 99% of the time somebody who's NOT as successful as he claims.

      OR you get a top notch mentor that's already where you want to be. Problem: Those people either don't have the time to mentor you like you would need to be mentored or they charge skyhigh prices.

      I would recommend you to expand your knowledge with courses and websites, get clients for smaller stuff and save money, than get mentored for big money by the BEST like John Carlton. Wouldn't waste my time with anybody outside of the let's say Top 10 of any profession (hell I would only like to work with the absolute number one).

      TK
      Hmmm...interesting that you say this, although just because someone doesn't fall in the top 10 does NOT mean that they are incapable of delivering excellent stuff.

      My own example - I worked as an over-qualified classroom assistant for years to work around my son. My teachers were horrified I wasn't a proper teacher - they quite happily allowed me to manage a group of 18 children on my OWN and guess what? My group achieved 8 A's and 10 B's, and some of these kids were failing. One of my students who I taught science and maths went from a D in both subjects to an A.

      My point is, just because someone isn't a top gun doesn't mean they cannot give you great guidance. One of the downsides of a top gun is perhaps they may not have as much time to help you when you need it, especially for the little things that they think you should know.

      And in any case, being great rests not just upon your teacher, but on you as an individual. If you have the dedication to work hard and commit and over-deliver every step of the way, you have the qualities to make it big, and you WILL get there, regardless of how long it takes.

      just my two pence worth, but I felt i should say this because it is unfair to mentors who are not in the top 10, but are still very successful.
      Signature
      "Sales Letter Conversion Rate At 19%??" Get Your Own Kick-Ass Converting Copy Here!
      Need More Clients? Click here...
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2668123].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by TK1 View Post

      Getting mentored is the easiest secret to learn something and become good at it, but it's the most difficult one, too.

      Because:

      Either you get mentored by someone who has time for you, that is 99% of the time somebody who's NOT as successful as he claims.

      OR you get a top notch mentor that's already where you want to be. Problem: Those people either don't have the time to mentor you like you would need to be mentored or they charge skyhigh prices.

      I would recommend you to expand your knowledge with courses and websites, get clients for smaller stuff and save money, than get mentored for big money by the BEST like John Carlton. Wouldn't waste my time with anybody outside of the let's say Top 10 of any profession (hell I would only like to work with the absolute number one).

      TK
      Your line of thinking can be fairly accurate in most industries but not always.

      For example, Ted Williams is considered one of the best pure hitters in major league history. Yet he was a complete flop as a major league hitting coach because he wasn't a good teacher of what he knew.

      Another factor to consider with mentoring with a top gun is... some of them don't teach because they don't have the patience or desire to do so.

      Food for thought,

      Mike
      Signature
      Kickstart Your Copywriting Business: How To Get Loads of New Clients FAST!

      Kick-A$$ Eight-Figure Producing Copywriting Gun For Hire | Marketing & Copywriting Blog
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2668163].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author scrofford
    Chris Elliott has a copywriting course. I think it's called copywriting rush. (MODS:I am not an affiliate) I know it's a good course and fairly affordable. Not sure if that's what you are looking for or not. You may not want just a course.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2669711].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Gary Pettit
    It's true, I had an excellent education. But I've never paid anyone to teach me to write. The best way to learn to write is to 1) Read EVERYTHING--see how "they" do it; 2) Practice--simplistic but true, you can't learn to do anything well without copious practice; and 3) (this is vital, and not to be taken lightly) Get a hold of E.B. White's classic essay, "The Elements of Style." It remains the shortest, clearest and best tutorial for effective writing. I'm sure it's available online, or any librarian would be happy to guide you to a copy.
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2708038].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Rogers
      Hi there... Sparkie,

      I've seen you quote "Elements Of Style" as one the essential guide to good copywriting twice now, so I'm compelled to jump in and say while I agree that it is THE best book on grammar I've ever owned... and have also touted it as boldly as you do for help with understanding basic rules of grammar...

      ... there are about 10 things more important to selling with words than anything you'll hear from Strunk and White.

      You could fill an entire bankruptcy court's file cabinets with sales letters from companies who placed proper grammar over salesmanship and went belly up. And find 10 times the amount of despicably unpolished sales letters written on a 6th grade level that brought in millions.

      So, for what it's worth to you or anyone who comes here looking for clues as to what it takes to write winning copy... my advice is to know the rules of grammar well, but only so you can break them more better. :-)

      Kevin


      Originally Posted by sparkie2260 View Post

      3) (this is vital, and not to be taken lightly) Get a hold of E.B. White's classic essay, "The Elements of Style." It remains the shortest, clearest and best tutorial for effective writing. I'm sure it's available online, or any librarian would be happy to guide you to a copy.
      Signature

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2711315].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    my advice is to know the rules of grammar well, but only so you can break them more better.
    Hah! You nailed exactly what I was thinking with that quote.

    Yeah, there's a lot more important things to worry about when writing copy than whether or not you have all of your commas in the right places.

    You do need to understand grammar and style. On the flip side, I guarantee an English teacher would go to town with a red pen on just about any high converting sales letter.

    It's a good book for writers. It has nothing to do with creating ads that convert though.

    -Scott
    Signature

    Over $30 Million In Marketing Data And A Decade Of Consistently Generating Breakthrough Results - Ask How My Unique Approach To Copy Typically Outsells Traditional Ads By Up To 29x Or More...

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2711412].message }}

Trending Topics