Handling Stubborn Clients

Hey Kellie,

I am by no means an expert yet, but here's my opinion...

If I were you, I would consider working this into the conversation you and your client(s) first have before starting a project.

I would make it known that you are willing to take things on, under the condition that they leave the integrity of your work intact.

Or, alternatively, they can edit your work so long as they run it against your version.


Some people feel that since they pay money for a service, they should have a complete say in what goes on.

Unfortunately, that's just not always the case.

After all, if they knew how to write copy well enough in the first place and want to butcher your work...why are they bothering to hire someone in the first place?

You're the expert, not them.

-Mike

I take care of this problems BEFORE it happens by filtering
out these types of clients. I let prospects know upfront that
I'm the expert and if they cannot handle that relationship
then find someone else.

Most clients who will do something like this really are NOT
sold on your abilities otherwise they would trust your
judgment. Simply because a 'guru' asked you to write
copy doesn't mean that s/he wants 'your' copy. I know
many who just want a 'first draft' for cheap and they
would later 'fix it up' to their liking.

-Ray Edwards

Thanks so much! Yes, I am slowly learning how to set up my contracts to avoid these things. Both clients who did this are product creators (the first is a software engineer and the second creates sports supplements). My most successful clients are the IM'ers who 'get' the art of copywriting.

You are so right in saying not to get emotionally attached. I am just thinking of references. I would like to have a solid variety in my portfolio, and am always thinking of using my work for referrals.

The split test idea is excellent. Thanks for that!

This client wants me to revamps all of his product copy, newsletters, product labels, web content, ect. I am killing myself to do this. I think maybe I should just move on.

Collette, thanks for the suggestion to educate him. That is a wonderful way to state the issue.

With gratitude,
Kellie

Ask them if they would tell their Dentist they knew a better way to perform a root canal or if they would tell an eye surgeon that they felt they could do a better job.

You're the reason why they needed you in the first place, kindly let them know you're the expert and then show them empirical evidence why!

You're the eye surgeon to their copy!

Actually, I don't know how i'd handle this, but I would follow Matt's advice, let 'em learn the hard way.

I disagree, but your avatar has me too intimidated to say why.

--- Ross

I disagree with your version of "the truth".

--- Ross

Thanks for the heart-felt congrats.

--- Ross

Don't try to 'sell' him the copy. Sell him on the concept behind the copy.

If you've been doing this for 7 years, you're already aware of how many business owners focus on whether they like their own advertising or marketing collateral - instead of focusing on whether their prospects and customers like it.

Even though people will pay lip service to the concept, they often haven't bought into it fully. So you have to remind them that the copy is not for them; it's for their prospects and customers.

And some peole have to be reminded more frequently than others. :rolleyes:

I always begin a project with a creative brief that includes the direction and theme of the copy. I find that doing so helps avoid tedious conversations after I submit the first draft.

BTW: One of my best clients is a company in a very conservative B2B niche. On our first project, the marketing director was totally in sync. The CEO was not. I had to 'educate' the CEO. Now, she's my biggest fan, and I almost never have to make changes to first drafts.

I've also fired three clients in my career. For two of them, it wasn't the work or the 'educating': they were both way too high-maintenance to make the relationship worth my time and energy. One of those clients is still a client. He apologized and mended his ways, and now we get along just fine.

The other guy - I discovered he was a crook. I don't work for crooks.

Having clients, and telling them the truth, are not mutually exclusive. It's not only possible to do both, it's unprofessional to do otherwise.

I'm just sayin'...

BRB grabbing some popcorn.

@ Matt:

Ross is a very respected copywriter...so I would listen to what he says.

Dan Kennedy and Joe Sugarman are very adament about this: image and reputation speaks to the kind of clients you will keep and attract. It's the "environment' in which we sell...our persona.

I remember Kevin Rogers mentioned one time:

Watch everything you say...or write. You'd be surprised who is reading what you post on forums.

That said...if you didn't give a knuckle sandwich to tards of any kind, you wouldn't be keeping in alignment with your brand.

PS - Halbert and if I remember correctly, John Carlton and Scott Haines have all expressed how incredibly crappy some clients can be (Niche dependant at times too...don't work for ad agencies!!!)

I don't think they ever said that to their clients faces and only divulged that after that fact they were ubber successful and didn't have to worry about their next client. Or made an online comment about them where your backlinks could be tracked by prospective clients.

Just saying.

@ kjdavis, for all of the sucessful clients I've known, they always had a system of testing out clients before they worked for them and set up very basic and easy to follow rules ahead of times.

It's the:

Here's what I do
Here's how I work
Here's what I expect from you
Here's what will end our relationship


Some copywriters seem to ask them to split test against their copy (Joe Sugarman did this all of the time) and show them how your copy out performs their version.

I agree with Raydal: A client doesn't have the right to tell a professional whom they hired for help on how to do their job.

There is a reason they aren't making as many sales.

W. Clement Stone, famous self-made billionaire and Napoleon Hill's respected friend, devised a system where if it took too long to get a sale he would drop that person and move on to the next one because he could be instead spending time with worthwhile client.

Something to think about.

To handle stubborn client you must go with the flow. It is the client's system, after all, and they're paying you to do what they want. You've given them the benefit of your wisdom, and they've chosen to ignore it, so just do things their way. Who knows, maybe they're right after all -- there's always more than one way to look at the pros and cons of anything. Of course, this makes you less than excited about working for them. In fact, you may subconsciously start to think of the whole project as tainted, which could lead to quality slippage in other areas as well.

It's good to believe in the best in people... unfortunately in this business not everyone will treat you, as the service provider, with the respect you think you deserve.

In time, typically you'll learn to wheedle out the bad clients over the good ones. Often your intuition will kick in, if you get a 'bad feeling' about someone from the start, kick them out immediately - don't take them on as a client at all.

This is your business, it's your time and effort your putting in... so don't allow anyone to tell you what you should or should not do. Don't allow money or other pressing needs get in the way of your good judgement calls.

And if you do take on a client who starts acting up, fire them immediately as a customer. It's pretty easy to tell if someone is being genuine with you or is a timewaster, intent on causing trouble.

As regards payments, insist on being paid 100% up front. Don't take or be tempted to offer a 50% deposit with the rest due on completion.

You'll be surprised at the number of people who order copywriting services, pay their deposit, receive their sales copy, tell you they're delighted with it and will then refuse to pay the remaining outstanding balance owed.

Even I've just been stung recently using this approach...

A Warrior member ordered copywriting from me, paid their 50% deposit... It took me over 50 hours to research their market and to write the sales letter, sent it over to them, got the thank you message and was also told they're delighted with it, 'excellent' was the word they used and then turned around and told me they couldn't afford to pay me the remaining balance, that they had a cash flow problem.

That very well may be true but it's not my problem.

The latest excuse is that the individual concerned has the flu and cannot pay me until they're over it. Nonsense! When did the flu stop anyone from clicking on their mouse a couple of times at Paypal? :rolleyes:

In this instance I have the guys address and will pursue him with a debt collection agency and/or a claim through the small claims court to recover the monies due.

Lesson learn't? Never, ever take a deposit upfront. Demand the full 100% upfront or you don't do business... it's as simple as that.

In short, if anyone starts causing you grief, just cut them lose, fire them on the spot, don't waste your time dealing with idiots.

I hope this further advice helps you out.

From reading (I have no idea where I got this), Gary's mantra was "All client's suck". I always interrupted this to mean that they literally suck... as in they suck your energy dry. They're "Life-sucking vampires." This appears to have a lot of truth to me because of the nature of the client/service provider relationship. If you've done your best job you've put in the hours, the hard work, and the time, then in most cases any job would exhaust you.

Moreover, there is a constant push/pull with the client and service provider where the client rightfully so wants to get the most from his money and the service provider wants to get paid a fair amount for his works. So, in a way, copywriters may "suck" in this way too as well.

In other words, I didn't interpret this to mean all client's "suck" as in they're "losers" or somehow bad people. As others have mentioned, if you make communication a priority and be selective about who you work for... you'll get the opportunity to meet and work for some really remarkable people.

One of the best parts about this job is a lot of time you get learn from people who have and will soon accomplish remarkable feats. Folks that you would ordinarily ever encountered or heard of otherwise.

Wait... my interpretation is somewhat wrong... I actually just Googled, "All client's suck Gary Halbert" and this explanation came up:
Ben Settle Bares It All (Well, Almost) (#7)

I get people that keep wanting to change or add more work, but few want to pay more for the extra time it takes. For some reason they assume or expect it in the original quote. Then, they get mad. Like you are supposed to work more for free or nothing. Like you don't have bills to pay too. If it's not a very profitable job/work then I sometimes tell these folks I am too busy to take on this project right now.

You should always look out for your client's best interest, but some people are just stubborn.

Here's what I do. First I explain why I wrote the letter the way I did. If they still won't yield, I propose a split test between their rewritten copy and what I submitted.

If they still insist on their changes, I just smile and collect payment.

I had a client mangle my copy twice during the revision process. The first time, I tried to fix what he'd done. After the second time I simply said, "Looks great!" and cashed my check.

If someone won't let me help them, then at some point that's on them. I give it my best and then let it go. Clients either "get it" or they don't.

The second client I ever had was a complete drain on my time and resources... and then ended up only paying me half of what he owed me.

The good news? I've learned how to make sure to handle "vampire client" situations diplomatically and firmly.

Well, in the field of online marketing we can not prevent that sometimes we can work with stubborn clients we don't have any hold from them. Trust is the most important one we can do, and if some one dose not pay well its just a matter of experience.

I'll just consider it as an experience to learn. We cannot prevent their existence, just consider them and think if you going to continue doing business withe them.

In my honest opinion I think you need to be upfront and honest with your client. Let them know that you are the expert and you know what converts and what doesn't.

If they still want to fuss about it, then tell them you will test YOUR sales copy against theirs for 1 week each and let the results speak for themselves - all the meanwhile remaining very friendly.

If it were me, I'd let him mutilate the copy, and take my name off it. There's no use dealing with stubborn clients. Besides, your reputation is on the line. Who knows, maybe when his copy sells zip, he'll begin to see what you were trying to show him right from the start.

If you have a solid referral base, let them crash and burn. As they say, you can lead a horse to water...

Working with my 1st stubborn client was definitely a learning experience. After being angry, gnashing my teeth and venting my frustration, I just moved on. It was clear to me that she valued her opinion more than my expertise, so I'm not sure how effective my efforts to sell her on the benefit of the copy would have been.

I also observed that she treated others that she hired this way too, which definitely helped me take the whole situation less personally.

The advice in this thread will help me to handle the next stubborn client (heaven forbid!) more effectively.

I've had clients who got great copy from me, which they raved about and told me was converting well, that they later turned around and totally ruined. God knows why, but that's what they did. It's painful to see some of the pages, but it's ultimately the client's call to make. If they want to pay for good copy which they KNOW is converting and then turn around and ruin it, well... que serra serra. You can't fix dumb.

The only thing I really hate is that it ruins the live page as a portfolio link. You can't link a prospect to something full of awful writing, bad copy, and bad grammar. I've learned to always check live pages I've done for clients before linking, as there's a good chance the client has mauled them.

Well, maybe they should, but that's hardly the point. Why would they WANT a big say in something they admittedly know little or nothing about? If a client is hiring me to write copy for them, it stands to reason they believe I know more about it than they do. So why would they then turn around and start interfering with everything? It's counterproductive and makes no sense. Clients who do it don't know how to be successful clients, and will get unnecessarily bad results because of it.

Thankfully, these clients exist primarily in the low price brackets. Jacking up one's rates even to the modest range can screen out a lot of them. You may get less work for a while, but really, unless you're totally desperate for cash, who cares? It's worth it to avoid these clients.

I think the best way to prove that your copy is better or the winner is to ask for the split test.

I had a client recently that loved the copy he said, his partner called and loved the copy and even the marketing manager called and thanked me for the great copy.

Then I looked and saw they never made the copy live. The same old copy was sitting there. I was curious and called him and asked why?

And then said..."I talked to my wife and she liked the other copy she wrote better." And then I asked what she does in the company and how long has she been copywriting?

His response was "she doesn't have anything to do with the company and she has no experience, but wanted to help me, so she wrote it" .

I asked if they split tested it and he said no. Asked him to do it and sure enough my copy out pulled his copy by a landslide. He kept my copy and got rid of hers, but told me he is not going to tell his wife he got rid of her copy. He was scared to tell her that her copy sucked basically.

Sometimes people will listen to people that have no idea what they are doing...I can't remember where I once heard this, but it go's something like this...

If you are taking advice from someone, then ask 2 simple questions. Do I value their opinion and do they know what they are talking about and doing?

He obviously values her opinion but she didn't know what she was doing.

Personally, I'm not going to ask a client to split-test, unless they happen to be a friend I want to do a favor. Why would I have to ASK a client to split-test the good copy they PAID FOR against the rubbish copy their buddy wrote? Why would a client even put themselves in that position? By that point, you know you're dealing with a wacky client. Best let them put autographed photos of Justin Beiber or whatever they want on the page and be done with it. They're going to anyway.

It's cool you did that for that client, though. I wouldn't have risked the headache. Glad he did the test and saw the light. I suspect most of them wouldn't even want to do the test.

I dunno, I guess I want clients who don't have to be asked to split-test. The clients I want are the ones who couldn't be stopped from split-testing if you held them at gunpoint.

I agree but unfortunately there is a lot of business owners out there that are not fully educated in the marketing side of their business and sometimes they need the extra push or tips to make things right. After all, he was smart enough to know he needed improvements, but his wife had his balls in a sling since she wrote the copy. I guess he figured it's safer to let her think it's still running versus dealing with an angry wife he has to sleep next to every nite.

Hehe... fair enough.

By the way, just an unsolicited thought, but your sig line strikes me as really underwhelming. What does "experience copywriting solutions" mean? Is that like "leveraging distributed resources?" Ugh... it tells me absolutely nothing and sounds like off-putting corporate-speak to boot.

Speaking as Joe Prospect, I don't think I want to "experience copywriting solutions." Things I'd like to "experience" might be climbing Mt Everest, driving a racecar, going into space, etc. But "copywriting solutions" as an "experience?" I don't get it. Am I supposed to imagine myself standing at the crest of some copywriting tsunami, wind in my face, having just "experienced solutions?"

I'll suggest a few better sig lines for you if you want (free of charge, of course). Otherwise, please feel free to ignore this unsolicited critique and be assured no harm is meant.

I feel you zentech and I would never put something like that for a signature anywhere else, but there's actually a very good reason I do that in the warrior forum here. I have a couple killer ones I use at a few other sites that bring massive results, but never would use those in here. I might change it later, but for now keeping that because of (oh wait this is public) never mind. Thanks though.