Long form Vs Short Form

13 years ago

I'd consider short copy anything that fits on a couple of pages. if I had to choose an arbitrary number I'd choose 3. Or 4.

(My last two sales letters were 17 pages and 20. And that's solid text. When spaced out, and formatted they span 36 and 48 pages.)

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John_S

13 years ago

When does a short form letter become a long form letter?

When the assumption changes from "people don't read anymore," to "I have my prospect's product/service, and they have my money."

It is not length or word count. You can be under two hundred and fifty words and be "long copy." On the other hand, with the unremarkable products issuing forth from dull, lethargic companies, one sentence will never be short enough.

Just get enthused about the offer. Word count falls where it may.

I can't figure out why you don't understand this.

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Pusateri

13 years ago

Originally Posted by arfasaira

When does a short form letter become a long form letter?

circa 2008

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DougBarger

13 years ago

Numerous tests have concluded long form copy outperforms short form.

As Claude Hopkins said, "Your advertisement can't be too long, only too boring."

If someone doesn't have the interest to read all the info necessary to make an informed decision about buying your offer, then they were not ideal prospects in the first place.

You shouldn't care if non-prospects don't read your advertisement.

You certainly want to answer all the objections and give your ideal prospects plenty of benefits and reasons to buy from you though.

That's why good long form copy has continued to reign when the short stuff fails to get the job done.

The only way your client will be (and should be) satisfied conclusively though is when she tests it and finds out the truth for herself.

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Mark Andrews

Banned 13 years ago

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DougBarger

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Andrews

Pardon? What does this have to do with the question being asked in the OP?

Do you honestly think a top copywriter from the health niche with a hell of a lot of experience behind her would be asking on here (of all places) whether long copy outperforms short copy or vice versa?

Read the question again...

Arfa Saira is simply asking... when does a sales letter leave off being a short form piece of copywriting to become a long form sales letter?

Isn't this blindingly obvious?

Mark Andrews

After re-reading the question, you'll see directly following it, the OP offers
opinions on what she personally thinks (at about 8 pages and longer).

She then states that some clients think that's too long.

She also states she thinks it's stupid when clients ask
for a specific number of pages.

She says her coach advised her that the copy needs to
be long enough to make the sale.

You'll also notice she asks, "What are your views?"

My reply reinforces for her what her copy coach told her.

My opinion is 7 pages or less is more or less short copy.

I hope that sufficiently answers your question on what
it has to do with the OP's question.

Now to answer your other question.

No, it wasn't blindingly obvious to me personally that she
was only after a specific page number for length due to
the part about what she finds some clients think is too long
and her sharing of the advice her copy coach gave her.

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Ashley Gable

13 years ago

Guys, I don't believe she is asking whether long form is better. But rather when does a letter cease being short form, and become long form.

I think it also depends a little on the actual page content. I have seen some letters with very little writing, yet they are considerably "long". Being made longer with graphics and large font.

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arfasaira

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ashley Gable

Guys, I don't believe she is asking whether long form is better. But rather when does a letter cease being short form, and become long form.

I think it also depends a little on the actual page content. I have seen some letters with very little writing, yet they are considerably "long". Being made longer with graphics and large font.

BINGO!

Thanks Ashley, you actually get it.

Just to place my question into context, I've re-adjusted my OP

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John_S

13 years ago

But rather when does a letter cease being short form, and become long form.

And that's exactly what some are replying to. It's the assumption behind the writing.

Assumptions about who's reading. Assumptions about the product. These assumptions govern a certain style. You can tell whether it's a "short copy" or "long copy" approach from just a single, key sentence (or three) ...even if all you have to go on is that excerpt and can't know how long the copy is technically.

Two samples. Exactly the same word count. One can be long copy, the other short. There can even be two complete ads or letters, same word count. You'll notice the "short copy" approach as minimizing the role of the written word -- with mousetype or scads of white space, or minimal contrast text you can barely see. And you'll see the short copy approach minimizing the role of the product or service as well.

You could just as well call it the wordsmith form versus the art director form. In fact, that might be better for communicating your meaning.

Given this, when does the transition happen? Read J. Peterman. Read the Ogilvy "Lemon" ad. Read the Halbert Coat-of-Arms letter. Then read this. When you can tell the difference, you'll understand.

Okay quiz time: Who's short. Who's long. And, if the technical factors were reversed, or equal, would that change at all?

It is not a length or Claude Hopkins quote thing. It's a world view of the writer thing. Sorry, but couching the topic in terms of long versus short copy is a recipe for misunderstanding. You don't seem to be getting That.

And if I see that Hopkins quote again, I swear I will puke.

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DougBarger 13 years ago

Originally Posted by John_S

And if I see that Hopkins quote again, I swear I will puke.

Haha. Good.

That means it's working. :p
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gjabiz

13 years ago

Now this may not have been universal, but....

When we used to mail out millions of pieces, the WEIGHT of the carrier had to be considered, and often just a lift note might tip the scale and cost micro pennies...but when it goes to economies...it might turn a profitable promotion into a not so profitable.

These are MY numbers, ones used by several companies I worked for followed this...if it were on 3 pieces of paper (6 pages) it was SHORT copy...Over 6 it became long...and since it was easier to print in sheets of 4...or 2 at least...

it often went 4 pages, 8 pages,12 pages...

then lift note, buckslip, return, blah blah blah...

I think you can use either 4 or 6 as a cutoff point. You would be very safe telling a client that 6 is considered short (and I'll back you up if you get challenged)...but I don't think there are any fast and hard rules...

Since electrons cost a heck of a lot less than paper...maybe it is a moot point...

BUT some clients get skittish with LONG copy...they don't see the benefit and of course..you simply say, let's test, test, test...

gjabiz

Originally Posted by arfasaira

An interesting question a client asked me...

When does a short form letter become a long form letter?

Everyone I've asked so far has their own views...so what are yours?

I personally think that once a letter gets past around 8-10 pages, your looking at a long form...but even some clients think that is too long.

Is long form only long depending on the niche? Or just what the client perceives?

My coach always told me that a letter is as long as it needs to be to get the message across - which I have to agree with...one letter I wrote ended up being 16 pages long (I totally surprised myself, I thought I might get to around 12 pages)...

And then there are clients who don't want letters going over a certain length, or those who ask for a minimum or exact length - which is just plain stupid.

Answers on a postcard please!

EDIT: Just to eliminate any doubts or confusion:

I 'GET' it, I'm not stupid (Just in case you guys are thinking that) and am asking for a specific page count of when you think short copy becomes long...

The reason why I am asking is that in the past I have written letters where clients have come back and asked me to cut them down - one I remember being a total pain because client asked me to make a 16 page letter short, so I edited down to 12 pages and he said it was still too long...so in short (pun intended!) it ended up being 8 pages after which I refused to cut it down further saying it would lose the ability to effectively sell his product.

And this has happened to me a few times. I've even had people asking for letters of a certain length...

Which is why I am asking!

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arfasaira 13 years ago

Thank you Gordon - that makes a lot of sense and I can see why anything over 6 sides would be considered long - even 8 page letters have drawn comments from clients in the past - they thought it was too long and that people wouldn't read all of it.
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John_S

13 years ago

BUT some clients get skittish with LONG copy

Client goes to site with long copy examples. Hires writer. Gets long copy. Objects.

Client goes to site with testimonials. Hires writer. Gets request for testimonials. Objects.

Client reads "Here's How We Work ...step 1 ...step 2 ...step 3." Gets to step one. Objects.

Cue laugh track. The same people will, when ordering pizza, object. ...because it's pizza.

When does short copy become long? Trick question, it's when client wrangling skills are not up to snuff.

Caveat. When the site is based around one thing, sets the client up to expect it, then delivers something else. That's bait and switch, not the client's fault.

I just saw a site with something like fifty words total on the top page ....for a marketing communications person. Barely any written content on the entire site. Except for PDF examples. Which were buried in a byzantine nav. For a writer.

This person is, today, wondering why response is so poor.

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Long form Vs Short Form

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