26 replies
Hello everyone,

I recently received an email from Shoemoney, saying that in order to sell an IM product, we must claim that it takes zero work, and that it will make money while they sleep. Obviously in reality, making good amounts of money DOES take work, and to get it set up to the point that you make money while you sleep takes a lot of time, effort and a fair bit of money too. So if I make those claims of zero work on my sales page as he suggests, I will basically be lying. I don't want to do that.

Saying that it will take zero work is not realistic, however if I don't include such claims, and all the "3639 in my first week with 5 minutes of work" type stuff, according to him my products will not sell.

Surely it would be better to have some credibility and tell them straight up that it will take work, because if it didn't, then everyone in the world would be rich. You know, I want to just be honest and tell them straight up that there are no zero work systems.

On the other hand, I read an extremely interesting post by Ray Edwards on this forum, about the concept of the 'Damaging Admission', and that it is actually a viable technique to increase credibility. So this viewpoint is contrary to the 'guru' Shoemoney's opinion of the matter.

Moreover, I have read that there is a considerable degree of 'ad-blindness' to such overhyped, unrealistic claims as users have become so accustomed to them over the past few years.

I was wondering what the truth is, in 2012? Of course I am going to be honest no matter what, but am I shooting myself in the foot? I'm not a copywriter, just getting started in it, so I would be very interested to hear the views of the more seasoned veterans on here.


Cheers,

JB
#copywriting #honesty
  • Hi JB,

    I see your in the UK. You've probably noticed that the culture tends to be somewhat negative.

    So, here in good old blighty - if you are selling a "get rich quick scheme"

    The headline that works best is -

    "Get Rich - Slow"


    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Frank Kern can sell shed loads of product using anti no work.

      Here's a long demonstration of it...

      "DO NOT REGISTER if you're resistant to the fact that my results are in no way remotely typical. You must understand that the financial results I have achieved have come at the high cost of 13 years of long days, longer nights, and hard work.

      I cannot, and will not imply that you or anyone will achieve the same ...or will do anything at all for that matter. Nobody controls your destiny but YOU.

      DO NOT REGISTER if you're unwilling or unable to tolerate risk, hard work, adversity, criticism, and frustration in order to reach your financial goals.

      As entrepreneurs, you and I face a tough fight against all manner of challenges every day - regardless of what we sell. And it's a fight we can, do, and will continue to WIN ...for all that is worth having is worth fighting for.

      If such harsh truth is unpalatable, leave now. Make room for those who are willing to create their fortune from their own labor and value provided to their marketplaces. For they are the ones who fuel the engine that turns the world. And we need them now more than ever.

      DO NOT REGISTER if you're searching for a way to extract money from a market with no value given in return. If you sell "get rich quick doing nothing" or any other type of offer which is even remotely out of compliance with regulatory guidelines, take it somewhere else. We don't run that type of operation here."

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Best,
      Ewen
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  • Here's another epic "disclaimer" from Mr Kern.


    FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY,
    WE BOTH KNOW DAMN GOOD AND WELL
    THAT JUST BECAUSE BRENDON MADE A BUNCH
    OF MONEY DOESN'T MEAN (OR IMPLY) THAT
    THE SAME WILL HAPPEN TO YOU OR ANYBODY
    ELSE.

    THERE IS NO PRODUCT, WEBINAR, SEMINAR, GURU,
    COACHING PROGRAM, POTION, OR ANYTHING
    ELSE THAT WILL MAKE YOU SUCCESSFUL.

    YOU HAVE TO WORK LIKE A PSYCHOTIC ANIMAL
    ...RELENTLESSLY REACHING FOR YOUR GOALS.

    THE ONLY GUARANTEE YOU CAN COUNT ON
    IS THIS: YOU WILL EXPERIENCE HARSHIP.
    YOU WILL EXPERIENCE FAILURE. YOU WILL
    EXPERIENCE DISAPPOINTMENT.

    IT IS IN THE MOMENTS THAT YOU GET UP,
    BRUSH YOURSELF OFF, AND CLIMB BACK INTO
    THE RING TO CONTINUE FIGHTING THAT YOU WILL
    FIND SUCCESS.

    IF THIS IS TOO MUCH FOR YOU, GET OFF MY
    LIST.



    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author johnnys229
      @Steve, ewen -- fantastic examples you pulled there. Cheers

      And Steve, yeah, I am British, so maybe that does make me less inclined to overwhelming hype, I'm relatively reserved and I see a lot of the "Make $28839 in 2 days" (or any similar promises to newbies) as absolutely ridiculous.

      And Jeremey, this is EXACTLY the kind of stuff that I *want* to express, because this is the cold hard truth, but I see sales letters left right and centre promising work with zero income (even claims like 'automatic' and 'turnkey' and 'done for you' as Loren suggests seem to imply zero work and are just not realistic whatsoever). Then I read Shoemoney advising us to promise loads of money with zero work, and these conflicting (completely opposite) opinions just confuse me even more.

      We're advised to appeal to a buyer's desires, and of course that is large amounts of cash, but then we also need to counter objections. If I don't promise large amounts of cash with zero work, am I shooting myself in the foot? (Sort of a repeat of the original question I know, but I still have no idea which road to take...)
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      • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
        Originally Posted by jb200800 View Post

        We're advised to appeal to a buyer's desires, and of course that is large amounts of cash, but then we also need to counter objections. If I don't promise large amounts of cash with zero work, am I shooting myself in the foot?
        As Loren stated, there are other "mechanisms" that can be used in the MMO niche besides promising large amounts of cash with no work.

        Please reread his post.

        Alex
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        • Profile picture of the author johnnys229
          Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

          As Loren stated, there are other "mechanisms" that can be used in the MMO niche besides promising large amounts of cash with no work.

          Please reread his post.

          Alex
          Hi there Alex -- cheers for your input. I re-read Loren's post (in fact I read it quite a few times trying to understand it) - maybe I'm just not advanced enough to quite comprehend it. I feel that even if I mention things like "done for you" or "turnkey", you know, things along those lines, it's not too far at all from "no work/effort", because the reality in any successful IM business as I said is hard work and effort, slaving away at the PC for 5-10 hours a day, often more. It gets easier of course once you've set everything up and you have a successful system, from there it is pretty automated and just a matter of scaling. I guess that might be something that I can emphasise, but I could hardly lie and say it doesn't take 6-8 months of hard work to set up. People are lazy and don't want that reality. I'd be very grateful if you could also expand on some other "mechanisms" in the MMO niche.


          Originally Posted by TheSalesBooster View Post

          These are what steve said. Disclaimers...

          They are another way of saying "I'm not responsible if you don't make any money, these results are not typical, blah blah blah FTC don't come after me".

          Truth is most people are lazy. They want a magic button system where they don't have to work. They want to retire and live on the beach while making millions doing nothing.

          That's why no work products are so successful. People buy into that dream the sales pitch creates in their mind. It's hard to sell someone something when it includes slaving over a PC 5 hours a day to get rich. It can be done, but the most important element when trying to go that route is...

          Proof. If you have undeniable proof that your product will make someone money. That there is a pot of gold waiting for them if they just put in the work. They will do it, but you need a huge amount of proof and credibility. Or...

          You can just do what every other "guru" out there does. Fake it till you make it and sell the dream.
          Yeah, this is the dilemma. Great points TSB - and you're right, the Kern things just appear to be disclaimers, he's probably covering his ass as his copy most probably is 'selling the dream'. However even if he is not, he has a huge amount of credibility and people trust him as one of the leading 'gurus'.

          And maybe this is why Shoemoney is giving this advice, because it works... regardless of the ethical implications. But I wanted to create a product that actually works, with time and effort, I didn't want to 'sell the dream' I wanted to actually enable people in their real lives to GET their dream. The only thing required is hard work and effort. I cannot believe people still think you can make loads of money by doing 10 mins of work and then sitting on a beach somewhere. You *could* do this if you've already set up a successful business and outsourced most of it for example, but at the start, no way, you've got to roll up your sleeves. But if the market makes you triple the money when you use the typical make loads of money with no work copy, then you would be a fool to ditch that copy. As an (Aspiring) copywriter I know I have to get the highest conversion rates as I can, plain and simple. If one page is working three times better than another page, as a copywriter there is surely no justification to choose the poor converting page.

          Originally Posted by ShoeMoney View Post

          That's a bummer that THAT was your takeaway from the article...
          Hi there ShoeMoney, nice to see you drop by. I'm on your list because I find your emails entertaining and of course that's not the only thing I took from the article. But I was quite surprised by it because, there is no method that can make you rich with no work (except from maybe winning the lottery, gambling or something like that), but you are still recommending that we sell it like that. As I said above, maybe you advised that simply because you have TESTED what works and found that the brutally honest "you will have to slave away at the PC for 10 hours a day when starting out" kind of stuff is not going to work, or better yet in Kern's words "you will have to work like a psychotic animal". I would just like to know the reasons WHY you say that our product will not be successful unless we guarantee that they will have to do ZERO work to make loads of cash.

          Thankyou to everyone who has replied so far, you have all really been a great help to me. I really appreciate it!
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          • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
            Originally Posted by jb200800 View Post

            Hi there Alex -- cheers for your input. I re-read Loren's post (in fact I read it quite a few times trying to understand it) - maybe I'm just not advanced enough to quite comprehend it. I feel that even if I mention things like "done for you" or "turnkey", you know, things along those lines, it's not too far at all from "no work/effort", because the reality in any successful IM business as I said is hard work and effort, slaving away at the PC for 5-10 hours a day, often more. It gets easier of course once you've set everything up and you have a successful system, from there it is pretty automated and just a matter of scaling. I guess that might be something that I can emphasise, but I could hardly lie and say it doesn't take 6-8 months of hard work to set up. People are lazy and don't want that reality. I'd be very grateful if you could also expand on some other "mechanisms" in the MMO niche.
            JB,

            If you're going to market successfully, you must connect with your prospects where they're at. Ray elaborated on that point, so I don't need to repeat what he said.

            Regarding mechanisms.

            Mechanism is a term used by Eugene Schwartz in his book Breakthrough Advertising. A mechanism is simply a new way to make the basic promise work.

            For example, the first diet product made a simple promise: lose weight.

            As the market matured, simply offering a weight loss solution wasn't enough. Marketers needed new mechanisms to differentiate themselves from the pack.

            The grapefruit diet was a new mechanism. The Atkins diet was a new mechanism. There have been hundreds.

            Make sense?

            In a crowded marketplace, if you don't have a new mechanism, you must find some other way to differentiate.

            It could be your offer.

            It could be you.

            Just to name two.

            Alex
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    • Profile picture of the author TheSalesBooster
      Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

      Frank Kern can sell shed loads of product using anti no work.

      Here's a long demonstration of it...

      "DO NOT REGISTER if you’re resistant to the fact that my results are in no way remotely typical. You must understand that the financial results I have achieved have come at the high cost of 13 years of long days, longer nights, and hard work.

      I cannot, and will not imply that you or anyone will achieve the same …or will do anything at all for that matter. Nobody controls your destiny but YOU.

      DO NOT REGISTER if you’re unwilling or unable to tolerate risk, hard work, adversity, criticism, and frustration in order to reach your financial goals.

      As entrepreneurs, you and I face a tough fight against all manner of challenges every day – regardless of what we sell. And it’s a fight we can, do, and will continue to WIN …for all that is worth having is worth fighting for.

      If such harsh truth is unpalatable, leave now. Make room for those who are willing to create their fortune from their own labor and value provided to their marketplaces. For they are the ones who fuel the engine that turns the world. And we need them now more than ever.

      DO NOT REGISTER if you’re searching for a way to extract money from a market with no value given in return. If you sell “get rich quick doing nothing” or any other type of offer which is even remotely out of compliance with regulatory guidelines, take it somewhere else. We don’t run that type of operation here."

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Best,
      Ewen
      Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter View Post

      Here's another epic "disclaimer" from Mr Kern.


      FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY,
      WE BOTH KNOW DAMN GOOD AND WELL
      THAT JUST BECAUSE BRENDON MADE A BUNCH
      OF MONEY DOESN'T MEAN (OR IMPLY) THAT
      THE SAME WILL HAPPEN TO YOU OR ANYBODY
      ELSE.

      THERE IS NO PRODUCT, WEBINAR, SEMINAR, GURU,
      COACHING PROGRAM, POTION, OR ANYTHING
      ELSE THAT WILL MAKE YOU SUCCESSFUL.

      YOU HAVE TO WORK LIKE A PSYCHOTIC ANIMAL
      ...RELENTLESSLY REACHING FOR YOUR GOALS.

      THE ONLY GUARANTEE YOU CAN COUNT ON
      IS THIS: YOU WILL EXPERIENCE HARSHIP.
      YOU WILL EXPERIENCE FAILURE. YOU WILL
      EXPERIENCE DISAPPOINTMENT.

      IT IS IN THE MOMENTS THAT YOU GET UP,
      BRUSH YOURSELF OFF, AND CLIMB BACK INTO
      THE RING TO CONTINUE FIGHTING THAT YOU WILL
      FIND SUCCESS.

      IF THIS IS TOO MUCH FOR YOU, GET OFF MY
      LIST.



      Steve

      These are what steve said. Disclaimers...

      They are another way of saying "I'm not responsible if you don't make any money, these results are not typical, blah blah blah FTC don't come after me".

      Truth is most people are lazy. They want a magic button system where they don't have to work. They want to retire and live on the beach while making millions doing nothing.

      That's why no work products are so successful. People buy into that dream the sales pitch creates in their mind. It's hard to sell someone something when it includes slaving over a PC 5 hours a day to get rich. It can be done, but the most important element when trying to go that route is...

      Proof. If you have undeniable proof that your product will make someone money. That there is a pot of gold waiting for them if they just put in the work. They will do it, but you need a huge amount of proof and credibility. Or...

      You can just do what every other "guru" out there does. Fake it till you make it and sell the dream.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7329887].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author ShoeMoney
        That's a bummer that THAT was your takeaway from the article...

        I just got a email from a gentleman who has the next awesome product. He wants to make a informational product and sell it. He is super legit and he is a multi millionaire so I have no doubt what he wants to sell works.

        Now I get emails like this all the time and I can’t speak for everyone but everyone I have ever checked out is pretty awesome. Some are completely revolutionary and if someone follows it step by step there is NO doubt you can make a lot of money.

        Before I go to far into it let me give you a great example:

        When I was growing up I had this neighbor who made AMAZING food. It was sooo Amazing good like nothing you would ever get at a restaurant. One day he got a small business loan and opened a restaurant. It did well. At least I thought. Every time I went in there it was busy as shit. But sadly it failed. Badly…

        But that is very common and why a HUGE percentage of new businesses fail.

        Here is the reason… are you ready for it?

        Its always the model. Its never the product.

        The EXACT same thing happens in our space. You can have the greatest product ever but if you do not understand the model on how to sell it… and how to monetize it then you are NO-NO-NO-NO-ed.

        In order to sell your product or service you have to:

        Get affiliates to promote it. The general model is to pay out 75%-120% of the sale price. Without this your product goes no where.
        Guarantee the user consumer will make a ton of money.
        Guarantee the user consumer have to do ZERO work.
        Have testimonials where people talk about how the product changed their life.
        Guarantee the user will make money while they sleep.
        That seems crazy right? After refunds and paying affiliates your going to lose probably 30-50% of your money.

        To make money on your product or service you have to:

        Make the refund process VERY hard for the consumer. Send something physical so they have to return that in order to get a refund.
        Sell the person’s information to coaching floors, tax preparation services, 401k planning and then do a revenue split with mass mailers on all of the buyer and partial data.
        Promote other people’s products with your new list of emails.
        By the time everything is said and done you should be 100% of the original purchase price in the green.

        Now once I explain that to people they usually retort with something like:

        But you have had tons of great products and services that have been very successful. How did you do it?

        Well first of all I have to disclose something to you. Know how I know so much about the above? Because I went down that road for a short time. I have no excuses it is what it is. I will tell you it was a huge mistake.

        Guess why I failed.

        I am easy to find and get ahold of.
        I refund everyone who wanted a refund.
        But the bottom line is I was not willing to do what it would take to be competitive (to the mainstream) by sinking well below FTC guidelines.
        But I have had many products and services succeed without sinking to a low level. Which is probably why so many people turn to me for that question.

        So ok let me answer that directly. Ready for it?

        Give people value and build trust with them.

        Evidently a lot of people find value in my blog. Whenever I sell something it sells. A while back I wrote a 80 some page PDF called the Affiliate Cash Tree. When it was for sale I did not make any income claims or promises of wealth with no work. Instead I made a simple description of the product and a button that said “Just Buy My Shit”. I had no affiliates. I just used my blog to promote it. I sold $40,000 worth in the first 24 hours and another 20k or so later. Sure I had some refunds… but it was a great product, people loved it.

        BUT I only reach so many people. And while selling 60k (maybe 50k after refunds/paypal fees) may sound like a lot it doesn’t even cover a month of my expenses. But honestly it took me a week to write that PDF and it was somewhat bonus income.

        So here is what I do and why it is so effective.

        Give people something of value. Something that shows you do know what you are talking about.
        Establish credibility right away.
        Show what makes you different then your competition
        Tell people the reason you are selling your product or service.
        Tell people how you started.
        Make it easy for people to get ahold of you. Its never been easier then ever to interact with people interested in your products and services through email and social media.
        You have to do what your competitors CAN’T.

        I have sold over 10m+ of other peoples products through email. One guy even bought me a brand new BMW cause I sold 500k of his product.
        Nominated by eBay for a Presidential Award in 2007.
        Had my own segment on Good Morning America answering questions from small business people.
        Been in countless major news outlets.
        This is what makes me different. I know you are better then your compeditors, probably have press, and have REAL customers that love your products.

        For instance when you signup to http://www.shoemoneytraining.com

        I give you a free ShoeMoney System account.
        Give you more free stuff.
        Talk about why you should listen to me and not these other idiots who have never done anything.
        Give you more awesome free stuff.
        Build more trust with you.
        Then I sell you shit. Go ahead and sign up. You will buy something. I know it sounds funny, and maybe even cocky but its just fact.

        This is one of the key factors why our PAR Program has taken off like a rocket. You take someone like me, who has 8 years of copywriting experience to build relationships and sell shit through email and put it to work for your product or service…. for our clients its night and day.

        But wait it gets better!

        Have you noticed what I did in this post? I gave you a huge amount of value on how to sell your product or service. I established that I know what I am talking about. I talked about all the press I have gotten and awards. So I bet you are now ready to sign up for the PAR Program and let me consult and setup your company to make money while you sleep…
        Signature

        Make your first dollar online in 5 minutes and continue to get paid to learn how to make money online. I don't charge you anything - Check out the ShoeMoney Network

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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremey
          JB, I think you misunderstood what Shoemoney's article was saying:

          But that is very common and why a HUGE percentage of new businesses fail.

          Here is the reason... are you ready for it?

          Its always the model. Its never the product.

          The EXACT same thing happens in our space. You can have the greatest product ever but if you do not understand the model on how to sell it... and how to monetize it then you are NO-NO-NO-NO-ed.

          In order to sell your product or service you have to:

          Get affiliates to promote it. The general model is to pay out 75%-120% of the sale price. Without this your product goes no where.
          Guarantee the user consumer will make a ton of money.
          Guarantee the user consumer have to do ZERO work.
          Have testimonials where people talk about how the product changed their life.
          Guarantee the user will make money while they sleep.
          That seems crazy right? After refunds and paying affiliates your going to lose probably 30-50% of your money.

          To make money on your product or service you have to:

          Make the refund process VERY hard for the consumer. Send something physical so they have to return that in order to get a refund.
          Sell the person's information to coaching floors, tax preparation services, 401k planning and then do a revenue split with mass mailers on all of the buyer and partial data.
          Promote other people's products with your new list of emails.
          By the time everything is said and done you should be 100% of the original purchase price in the green.

          Now once I explain that to people they usually retort with something like:

          But you have had tons of great products and services that have been very successful. How did you do it?

          Well first of all I have to disclose something to you. Know how I know so much about the above? Because I went down that road for a short time. I have no excuses it is what it is. I will tell you it was a huge mistake.

          Guess why I failed.
          Shoemoney is saying if you follow that business model, the conventional wisdom among a lot of marketers, you can have the best product in the world, but it will fail.

          So with that misunderstanding out of the way, I'd get to work on a business model that follows the things Shoemoney DID say brought him success:

          I am easy to find and get ahold of.
          I refund everyone who wanted a refund.
          But the bottom line is I was not willing to do what it would take to be competitive (to the mainstream) by sinking well below FTC guidelines.
          But I have had many products and services succeed without sinking to a low level. Which is probably why so many people turn to me for that question.

          So ok let me answer that directly. Ready for it?

          Give people value and build trust with them.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7331850].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dmarcotte
      Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter View Post

      Here's another epic "disclaimer" from Mr Kern.


      FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY,
      WE BOTH KNOW DAMN GOOD AND WELL
      THAT JUST BECAUSE BRENDON MADE A BUNCH
      OF MONEY DOESN'T MEAN (OR IMPLY) THAT
      THE SAME WILL HAPPEN TO YOU OR ANYBODY
      ELSE.

      THERE IS NO PRODUCT, WEBINAR, SEMINAR, GURU,
      COACHING PROGRAM, POTION, OR ANYTHING
      ELSE THAT WILL MAKE YOU SUCCESSFUL.

      YOU HAVE TO WORK LIKE A PSYCHOTIC ANIMAL
      ...RELENTLESSLY REACHING FOR YOUR GOALS.

      THE ONLY GUARANTEE YOU CAN COUNT ON
      IS THIS: YOU WILL EXPERIENCE HARSHIP.
      YOU WILL EXPERIENCE FAILURE. YOU WILL
      EXPERIENCE DISAPPOINTMENT.

      IT IS IN THE MOMENTS THAT YOU GET UP,
      BRUSH YOURSELF OFF, AND CLIMB BACK INTO
      THE RING TO CONTINUE FIGHTING THAT YOU WILL
      FIND SUCCESS.

      IF THIS IS TOO MUCH FOR YOU, GET OFF MY
      LIST.



      Steve
      I LOVE this one - thanks for sharing.
      Signature

      Never give up!
      www.newbieneutronium.com

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7344462].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    While claiming that a money-making opportunity
    requires "no work" is generally not true, other appeals
    that can apply and help sell such products without
    being misrepresentative are:

    "done for you"
    "automated"
    "turnkey opportunity"
    "completely set-up and ready to make you money"

    ... and so forth.

    Eugene Schwartz writes about the concept of a "mechanism"
    that most winning offers have. The mechanism is the
    aspect of the product that it does all by itself. Find
    these mechanisms in your product and blow them
    up so they capture the imagination of the reader.

    Rather than claim the product requires no effort,
    downplay the effort or mention it in passing while
    playing up the aspects of the product that are
    ready to go, already done, automated and easy.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremey
      It may also be profitable to play up the idea that the hard work your prospects do is setting them up for true success and independence, versus the "hard work" that 99% of the population do working for someone else to fill their employer's bank accounts.

      Discredit those "get rich quick" schemes and hold yourself up as an example of how hard work can generate wealth and independence. You may also want to reveal how the hard work your prospects are investing is nothing compared to the hard labor many "working joe's" endure week in and week out, driving trucks, programming databases, changing old people's diapers, or the like.

      ...How the "hard work" you'll need to invest in their success isn't really a JOB, it's a rewarding journey down the path of financial freedom....As with any journey, there will be trials along the way, but the rewards that await them at the end of the journey can pay dividends for years to come.

      ...Something like that. The point is to build up your prospect's self confidence and self respect and acknowledge that with a little effort on their part, you WILL offer a legitimate chance at lasting success...
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Ten
    Honesty is the ONLY sustainable way to sell successfully.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mo Jogee
    Honesty is the best policy. Even if I did sell products by lying then I don't know how you can even feel slightly satisfied maybe you need to be quiet cold hearted to do that hence the reason I cannot comprehend how someone can go through with tactics like that.

    To be honest Click-bank are clamping down unrealistic earning claims from products in their approval system. Well that's what I experienced.
    Signature
    AFFILIATES WANTED FOR
    AUDIO INTERVIEW WITH LEE MCINTYRE EARN 75% COMMISSION

    FOR PROMOTION TOOLS AND SIGN UP PAGE
    ==>CLICK THIS LINK<==
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
    Hi JB,

    Here's my take on it.

    Honesty in copy is important for both legal and creditability reasons. But it doesn't mean it needs to be cold brutal honesty either.

    Here's what I mean: There's an old saying "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he can eat for a lifetime."

    That may be true on a good karma basis but it's not the reality of our current world (my skewed U.S. citizen view that is). The vast majority of people want you to give them the fish. And if the fish is already been cleaned and cooked, then they like that even better.

    So from a sales perspective, the closer you can get it to "done for you" or "here's your cooked fish", then more appealing it will be to most potential buyers.

    It doesn't mean there still isn't work that they have to do. You have just removed a portion (or the majority of the work) for them. If you are selling them a prewritten set of affiliate emails, then you've done a good portion of the work for them... but they still have to set it up in their autoresponder service, set the campaign settings, and mail it out.

    That's an easy way to bring the honesty factor back into the copy: Tell them how much time the product is saving them.

    In terms of damaging admissions... a popular way to use this in the copy is to talk about how the product isn't for everyone. How there's a certain level of time and commitment needed to make the product work maximally. I frequently use a damaging admissions for products like coaching programs or more complex marketing systems.

    It still brings in the honesty side of things because most people can understand that it can take time to discover and perfect a proven solution... they're interested in buying that proven solution so they can get to success even faster than the product owner had done.

    Anyways, that's my take on it so please take it as such.

    Take care,

    Mike

    P.S. I'm pressed for time this morning so any typos or grammar mistakes, please blame it on the fact that I'm rushing to write this (hopefully) helpful post.




    Originally Posted by jb200800 View Post

    Hello everyone,

    I recently received an email from Shoemoney, saying that in order to sell an IM product, we must claim that it takes zero work, and that it will make money while they sleep. Obviously in reality, making good amounts of money DOES take work, and to get it set up to the point that you make money while you sleep takes a lot of time, effort and a fair bit of money too. So if I make those claims of zero work on my sales page as he suggests, I will basically be lying. I don't want to do that.

    Saying that it will take zero work is not realistic, however if I don't include such claims, and all the "3639 in my first week with 5 minutes of work" type stuff, according to him my products will not sell.

    Surely it would be better to have some credibility and tell them straight up that it will take work, because if it didn't, then everyone in the world would be rich. You know, I want to just be honest and tell them straight up that there are no zero work systems.

    On the other hand, I read an extremely interesting post by Ray Edwards on this forum, about the concept of the 'Damaging Admission', and that it is actually a viable technique to increase credibility. So this viewpoint is contrary to the 'guru' Shoemoney's opinion of the matter.

    Moreover, I have read that there is a considerable degree of 'ad-blindness' to such overhyped, unrealistic claims as users have become so accustomed to them over the past few years.

    I was wondering what the truth is, in 2012? Of course I am going to be honest no matter what, but am I shooting myself in the foot? I'm not a copywriter, just getting started in it, so I would be very interested to hear the views of the more seasoned veterans on here.


    Cheers,

    JB
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    • Profile picture of the author leighs31
      Originally Posted by Jeremey View Post

      It may also be profitable to play up the idea that the hard work your prospects do is setting them up for true success and independence, versus the "hard work" that 99% of the population do working for someone else to fill their employer's bank accounts.

      Discredit those "get rich quick" schemes and hold yourself up as an example of how hard work can generate wealth and independence. You may also want to reveal how the hard work your prospects are investing is nothing compared to the hard labor many "working joe's" endure week in and week out, driving trucks, programming databases, changing old people's diapers, or the like.

      ...How the "hard work" you'll need to invest in their success isn't really a JOB, it's a rewarding journey down the path of financial freedom....As with any journey, there will be trials along the way, but the rewards that await them at the end of the journey can pay dividends for years to come.

      ...Something like that. The point is to build up your prospect's self confidence and self respect and acknowledge that with a little effort on their part, you WILL offer a legitimate chance at lasting success...
      You should take the advice above it is spot on. I like this and the fact that really if you want anything in life it is going to be damn hard work at first getting it. Despite the fact that the authorities will be down on you like a ton of bricks if you say it is push button simple anyway - hence all the disclaimers everywhere nowadays.

      Of which the points above from Frank turn it into a typical fun to do thing. So you could say that this is the opportunity that awaits you if you are willing to put in the effort in the first place.

      I really think all the push button stuff has really destroyed a lot of things. Hence all the refund happy people and clickbank cracking down. If you set expectations from the beginning with this will take you at least 3mths if you put in 4hrs per day etc is a reasonable thing for people to do.

      Great that your standing up for yourself anyway honesty is the best policy
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    • Profile picture of the author johnnys229
      Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

      Hi JB,

      Here's my take on it.

      Honesty in copy is important for both legal and creditability reasons. But it doesn't mean it needs to be cold brutal honesty either.

      Here's what I mean: There's an old saying "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he can eat for a lifetime."

      That may be true on a good karma basis but it's not the reality of our current world (my skewed U.S. citizen view that is). The vast majority of people want you to give them the fish. And if the fish is already been cleaned and cooked, then they like that even better.

      So from a sales perspective, the closer you can get it to "done for you" or "here's your cooked fish", then more appealing it will be to most potential buyers.

      It doesn't mean there still isn't work that they have to do. You have just removed a portion (or the majority of the work) for them. If you are selling them a prewritten set of affiliate emails, then you've done a good portion of the work for them... but they still have to set it up in their autoresponder service, set the campaign settings, and mail it out.

      That's an easy way to bring the honesty factor back into the copy: Tell them how much time the product is saving them.

      In terms of damaging admissions... a popular way to use this in the copy is to talk about how the product isn't for everyone. How there's a certain level of time and commitment needed to make the product work maximally. I frequently use a damaging admissions for products like coaching programs or more complex marketing systems.

      It still brings in the honesty side of things because most people can understand that it can take time to discover and perfect a proven solution... they're interested in buying that proven solution so they can get to success even faster than the product owner had done.

      Anyways, that's my take on it so please take it as such.

      Take care,

      Mike

      P.S. I'm pressed for time this morning so any typos or grammar mistakes, please blame it on the fact that I'm rushing to write this (hopefully) helpful post.

      Mike, thankyou for your post, yes, it was definitely very useful, in particular your point about how much time it is SAVING them rather than it being cut and dry zero time, zero work quick riches. I am confident that my product can save the buyer months, possibly years. So I am definitely going to cover that angle but I could never claim 'zero work'. I like your 'fish' example, it's exactly how people are. But is anyone going to sell another person an already running, 'push button' business that makes six figures for $97, $497 or even $3000+? A 'cooked, cleaned fish' is so valuable that it requires a lot of work, time, effort and expense to set up successfully. Yes, it's partly the fault of the average person (see Raydal's most recent post) that they are so lazy and indulgent to think that they could get rich from simply buying a course and doing nothing. But as per Shoemoney's recommendation, it seems to me that this desire for quick riches or the 'pre-cooked, cleaned fish' is a 'low hanging fruit' / 'easy pickings' for copywriters as it is so common and so powerful that it can easily override all logic and objections, and hence get the sale. It is a copywriter's job to understand the target market's desires and address them in the copy, but at what point does it become a flat out lie or manipulation? I want to sell honestly, my product is quality, but can I , or indeed anyone, guarantee tons of money for zero work? No, no one can. So I am uncomfortable if I had to take that approach. But am I being naive?

      Jeremey, Yes, Shoemoney's email did have a lot of points besides this line, however he did say loud and clear, to guarantee that the user will make a ton of money (that in itself depends on their effort, ability etc., I guess stuff covered by the extensive disclaimers nowadays)...and at the SAME time Guarantee...zero work . There is no way you can make a 'ton of money' with 'zero work' when you're trying to set up an online business unless you are gambling. It may be the main feature of a lot of high converting copy in this niche but tons of money + zero work guarantees are not just good copy, they are just lies. Is it really necessary for us to lie in order to convert well? And even if you've got a great Frank Kern style disclaimer at the end of it, it's likely his copy contains similar tons of money guarantees, and he's just using that custom disclaimer to cover his ass.


      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      What people say can often be miles apart from what people do. We
      are hypocrites in one way or the other. There is the 'ideal' and
      there is the practiced and never the twain shall meet in this
      life.

      So who is your marketing targeted to? Do you really know your
      target market? Are you picturing them how you want them to be?
      How you wished them to be? Or how they really are?

      Let me explain.

      I often wish that people would know anything that is worth
      getting is worth exerting some effort to gain. But often what
      sells is the "get rich quick by doing nothing" products.

      I wish that people would want to buy integrity but no they prefer
      success.

      I wish that people would be more self-disciplined but they are
      more self-indulgent instead.

      I wish that people were more self-reliant but no they prefer
      dependence.

      You see, all the 'ideals' I may have in my head about my target
      can be very far from the truth. You'd be surprised to know that
      surveys show that while people SAY they will prefer to hear more
      positive stories on the news rather than all the disaster, crime,
      war and economic downturn, ratings are higher for the 'bad' news
      than the 'good' news.

      I told you what people say don't generally match what they do!

      I once read how the audience of the Howard Stern show, known for
      its un-sacredness, consists of twice as many listeners who HATE
      the show as who love the show. When asked why they listen if they
      hated the show these people commented that they didn't want to
      miss the outrageous thing Howard would say next!

      Perhaps you'll be surprised to know of the millions of 'closet
      readers' of the gossip and tabloid magazines--there's just no
      other way to explain their wide circulation. Most people who read
      the tabloids would want people to THINK that they read the
      'respectable' magazines instead.

      As the copywriter and marketer if you don't consider these trends
      when you are framing your appeal then you are missing the boat.


      I've often read many complaints from product owners who are
      simply frustrated that their products are not selling when their
      products "do A, B, C, D". They know their products provide value
      to their markets but they are not selling to prospects but to
      themselves. Read that again. As a product owner you can end up
      selling the product to yourself because you are not considering
      the REAL prospect but how you want the prospect to be--just like
      you!

      How much are you really in touch with 'people"? I mean real
      breathing, living people because these are the people who would
      buy your products and services. Do you have an ideal picture that
      is far removed from reality?

      Although you may not want to admit it, people are lazy, want easy
      success, ostentatious, lack integrity, make quick decisions,
      dependent, restless and ostentatious. This may not be the way you
      WANT them to be, but this is the reality you have to deal with.

      Discuss 'people' and most people would not want to be classed as
      such but it's the human story, and the quicker you learn this
      fact as a marketer the better it will be for you.

      Often I have seen products of lesser value than mines being sold
      for higher prices and I'm often left dumbfounded. But when I
      investigated the matter further I realize that I have too high a
      view of people. My wife often complain that I am too naïve and
      people will easily walk over me. But my nature is to see the best
      in every man. I often see people as I want them to be, instead of
      what they are. This may be a great trait to have in another
      field, but in marketing it leads to your demise.


      Because the quicker you can understand human nature for what it
      IS instead of what you WANT it to be, the quicker you'll be able
      to reach people. It's simple: in order to take people where you
      want them to go you must understand the journey they are already
      on.

      Why do people always fall for SCAMS and conmen? Because these
      thieves sell to human nature and not what they idealize their
      victims to be. These scumbags understand human nature and sell to
      human nature, not to sinless angels.

      So, be honest. But don't be over-honest.

      -Ray Edwards

      Ray, ho-ly cow. What a post. How on earth did you read my mind like that? Your wife probably has the right idea. I am starting to think that maybe I am way too naive. I also try to see the best in everyone. I don't want to think that the majority of people are selfish, lazy, indulgent, impatient and lack integrity... when the fact is, probably many, many more people are like that than my ideals would have me think. You are right, maybe I have been thinking about selling to my SELF rather than to my MARKET. And this is probably why Shoemoney said what he said in the first place, because that's just the way things are. If it gets the best conversions by far, then why ditch that tactic? I just get uncomfortable when I try to confront the reality of most people I'm selling to being lazy, indulgent, impatient etc., so I imagine them all being like myself instead. I imagine that I would want brutal honesty in a sales letter, down to the precise amount of hours you will have to work slaving away at your computer when you're trying to set up a business online. This is because I would have saved myself a lot of time, expense and pain if I had just been told the brutal, honest truth at the start. But most people don't even want to know the truth. They want to buy the latest product click a few buttons and become rich. I guess the attitude of many copywriters is that these buyers are to blame as much as the sellers, if not more so, and I can see their point. I *want* the market the think like me, so that I could be brutally honest, almost too honest as you mention, but I think the cold hard facts about setting up an online business are often too much for the average casual IMer to deal with. I have a hard time selling stuff to people even if it's a really great product, because I know they're not going to use it. They're just going to pay for it, sure I keep the money, but they are going to throw it away along with the dozens of other products, and never make anything. But if they've been GUARANTEED 'push button', 'instant', and then they see it actually DOES require work... then of course they're going to throw it away.

      I am going to be as honest as I can. I won't claim guaranteed tons of money for zero work, in my opinion there may be legal issues from that. But as Ray has pointed out, I am also going to consider the nature of my market, not simply MY OWN nature. Maybe my market doesn't want to hear intricate, gory details of business that they aren't ready for yet. And maybe I will have to just write completely different versions split-test to see what actually works.

      Once again, thankyou to everyone sincerely for such a stimulating discussion, it's wonderful to see such experienced copywriters taking the time out to give their valuable insight. A really wonderful resource for a beginner like me!
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremey
        Originally Posted by jb200800 View Post

        Jeremey, Yes, Shoemoney's email did have a lot of points besides this line, however he did say loud and clear, to guarantee that the user will make a ton of money (that in itself depends on their effort, ability etc., I guess stuff covered by the extensive disclaimers nowadays)...and at the SAME time Guarantee...zero work . There is no way you can make a 'ton of money' with 'zero work' when you're trying to set up an online business unless you are gambling. It may be the main feature of a lot of high converting copy in this niche but tons of money + zero work guarantees are not just good copy, they are just lies. Is it really necessary for us to lie in order to convert well? And even if you've got a great Frank Kern style disclaimer at the end of it, it's likely his copy contains similar tons of money guarantees, and he's just using that custom disclaimer to cover his ass.
        Thanks, and I completely get what you're saying.

        There's a lot of great information on this thread pertaining to directly what you're talking about, and it's real world stuff that should be put to good use...

        But I'm starting to wonder if I need to have my head examined as I seem to be the only one thinking that Shoemoney's message was guaranteeing money for zero work was exactly what you SHOULDN'T be doing, but it's a little confusing in context because of how he put his message together.

        Am I the only one here thinking that he was saying the opposite of what everyone else is thinking here? LOL...
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        • Profile picture of the author seosoldier
          Originally Posted by Jeremey View Post

          Thanks, and I completely get what you're saying.

          There's a lot of great information on this thread pertaining to directly what you're talking about, and it's real world stuff that should be put to good use...

          But I'm starting to wonder if I need to have my head examined as I seem to be the only one thinking that Shoemoney's message was guaranteeing money for zero work was exactly what you SHOULDN'T be doing, but it's a little confusing in context because of how he put his message together.

          Am I the only one here thinking that he was saying the opposite of what everyone else is thinking here? LOL...
          No, Jeremey, you do not need to have your head examined; but jb needs to read what shoemoney said in the long post, again.

          The reason shoemoney posted the following was because jb got shoemoney's message absolutely backwards:

          "That's a bummer that THAT was your takeaway from the article..."

          To me it's very clear that shoemoney was saying those things are NOT the way to go, that the way to go is as you pointed out, above, when you highlighted the parts of shoemoney's post.
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        • Profile picture of the author johnnys229
          Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

          Hi JB,
          Split test? A sales approach to the get rich easy crowd versus the ones who know there will be work involved. See how you do in the short term and long term in terms of revenues, efficiency and pricing and relationship building... Schefren, Perry Marshall,
          Mark Hendricks... apparently are not doing too bad when it comes to revenues. I'm not saying you don't appeal to the make money and save time benefits - just explain the how more than the why. Maybe worth a look at Shefren and his current promotion of Pete Williams' Profit Hacks. Take care, Dan
          Yes, that's an excellent suggestion. I remember reading something from Ben Settle I think it was, about how we can make educated guesses about what copy will get the best results, but so often what we think will work best does not, and vice versa. So in the end, I think I will just have to make a few completely different versions and split test them.


          Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

          I view them as the same. Both represent differentiation that's a benefit to the prospect.

          Regarding the IM niche, keep a close eye on successful promotions running on Clickbank and the WF WSO forum. Doing so will help you see what stage of sophistication the market is in.

          Alex

          Hmm, interesting tip Alex ... my only conclusion from ClickBank etc is that the market is not as sophisticated as I might think, perhaps because most people who try IM don't stay in it for long, and there is a constant influx of newbies.

          Originally Posted by Jeremey View Post

          Thanks, and I completely get what you're saying.

          There's a lot of great information on this thread pertaining to directly what you're talking about, and it's real world stuff that should be put to good use...

          But I'm starting to wonder if I need to have my head examined as I seem to be the only one thinking that Shoemoney's message was guaranteeing money for zero work was exactly what you SHOULDN'T be doing, but it's a little confusing in context because of how he put his message together.

          Am I the only one here thinking that he was saying the opposite of what everyone else is thinking here? LOL...
          No Jeremey, rest assured I am the only one needing my head examined :O

          Originally Posted by seosoldier View Post

          No, Jeremey, you do not need to have your head examined; but jb needs to read what shoemoney said in the long post, again.

          The reason shoemoney posted the following was because jb got shoemoney's message absolutely backwards:

          "That's a bummer that THAT was your takeaway from the article..."

          To me it's very clear that shoemoney was saying those things are NOT the way to go, that the way to go is as you pointed out, above, when you highlighted the parts of shoemoney's post.

          Hmm, seosoldier, reading it over and over again I think you are right. What a relief. Lol, I think I owe an apology to Shoemoney, he was saying the RIGHT thing all along. I did get a bit scared when I thought he was 'recommending' us to sell info to third parties (boiler rooms) and make unrealistic guarantees. I misread it completely. I'm quite relieved that the actual recommendation is to give value and build trust, exactly what I was aiming to do anyway.

          In my defence, the email was a bit confusing. And the (embarrassing) misinterpretation *did* lead to some brilliant posts by certain people in here, which will not only be helpful to me, but also to a lot of budding copywriters in the future. So all is not lost


          ....


          By the way, thank you to everyone in this thread who has opened my mind in some way or another. It's really great to see some high-flying copywriters actually take the time out to help someone who is just starting out. In no particular order, thank you to Steve, ewenmack, Loren, Jeremey, Alex, TheSalesBooster, Mike, Ray, and Dan for their contributions. Copywriting section is now definitely my favorite subforum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    What people say can often be miles apart from what people do. We
    are hypocrites in one way or the other. There is the ‘ideal’ and
    there is the practiced and never the twain shall meet in this
    life.

    So who is your marketing targeted to? Do you really know your
    target market? Are you picturing them how you want them to be?
    How you wished them to be? Or how they really are?

    Let me explain.

    I often wish that people would know anything that is worth
    getting is worth exerting some effort to gain. But often what
    sells is the “get rich quick by doing nothing” products.

    I wish that people would want to buy integrity but no they prefer
    success.

    I wish that people would be more self-disciplined but they are
    more self-indulgent instead.

    I wish that people were more self-reliant but no they prefer
    dependence.

    You see, all the ‘ideals’ I may have in my head about my target
    can be very far from the truth. You’d be surprised to know that
    surveys show that while people SAY they will prefer to hear more
    positive stories on the news rather than all the disaster, crime,
    war and economic downturn, ratings are higher for the ‘bad’ news
    than the ‘good’ news.

    I told you what people say don’t generally match what they do!

    I once read how the audience of the Howard Stern show, known for
    its un-sacredness, consists of twice as many listeners who HATE
    the show as who love the show. When asked why they listen if they
    hated the show these people commented that they didn’t want to
    miss the outrageous thing Howard would say next!

    Perhaps you’ll be surprised to know of the millions of ‘closet
    readers’ of the gossip and tabloid magazines—there’s just no
    other way to explain their wide circulation. Most people who read
    the tabloids would want people to THINK that they read the
    ‘respectable’ magazines instead.

    As the copywriter and marketer if you don’t consider these trends
    when you are framing your appeal then you are missing the boat.


    I’ve often read many complaints from product owners who are
    simply frustrated that their products are not selling when their
    products “do A, B, C, D”. They know their products provide value
    to their markets but they are not selling to prospects but to
    themselves. Read that again. As a product owner you can end up
    selling the product to yourself because you are not considering
    the REAL prospect but how you want the prospect to be—just like
    you!

    How much are you really in touch with ‘people”? I mean real
    breathing, living people because these are the people who would
    buy your products and services. Do you have an ideal picture that
    is far removed from reality?

    Although you may not want to admit it, people are lazy, want easy
    success, ostentatious, lack integrity, make quick decisions,
    dependent, restless and ostentatious. This may not be the way you
    WANT them to be, but this is the reality you have to deal with.

    Discuss ‘people’ and most people would not want to be classed as
    such but it’s the human story, and the quicker you learn this
    fact as a marketer the better it will be for you.

    Often I have seen products of lesser value than mines being sold
    for higher prices and I’m often left dumbfounded. But when I
    investigated the matter further I realize that I have too high a
    view of people. My wife often complain that I am too naïve and
    people will easily walk over me. But my nature is to see the best
    in every man. I often see people as I want them to be, instead of
    what they are. This may be a great trait to have in another
    field, but in marketing it leads to your demise.


    Because the quicker you can understand human nature for what it
    IS instead of what you WANT it to be, the quicker you’ll be able
    to reach people. It’s simple: in order to take people where you
    want them to go you must understand the journey they are already
    on.

    Why do people always fall for SCAMS and conmen? Because these
    thieves sell to human nature and not what they idealize their
    victims to be. These scumbags understand human nature and sell to
    human nature, not to sinless angels.

    So, be honest. But don't be over-honest.

    -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I vote for being honest so that you can look yourself in the mirror and influence the people who will really care and remember you when you are gone - the mate and kids and grand kids.

    Of course, there are the legal issues as well.

    Then there is the image/reputation thing. Not to knock the copywriters, but it sounds like you are also marketing you - not someone else. Not that I am anywhere close,
    but I would come across more like Rich Schefren than Frank Kern. And I cannot even think about buying the products pitched by fake actors, or someone whose image I cannot stand or relate to.

    Yes, you have to market to your market. AND respond to your market. But, if you market to the lazy, push button easy people, then that may define you and those are the folks you will sell to. And, you might get tired of them and their refund requests and their attitude... Might bring you down as well.

    Look at multi-level marketing (MLM). I don't know any MLM made wealthy people and most of the programs pitch to the sit on the beach and make money crowd. Will anyone make money from a downline that is sitting on the beach racking up their credit card
    to buy drinks with umbrellas in them? Maybe that's why I don't know any wealthy MLM'ers. Same goes for having push button easy affiliates help you increase your sales
    and market reach and reputation.

    "More Money. More Business. More Time Off." is Rich Schrefren's slogan. A go getter and doer - the market you probably want - does not need to be sold on those ideas. Nor do they need to be lured by what to do with their money or time. (I totally do not relate to fancy cars and mansions and already know what I would do with more money and time.)

    What people do need to be shown or "sold" is HOW your product or service or information or system or mechanism will get them "more money, more business, and more time off" and improve their business and life in whatever ways you can help them, benefit them...

    So, to summarize, it's about your image and reputation, your Unique Selling Propositions
    and how you are going to benefit them and be better than the other's in the space(s)
    you are in
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    • Profile picture of the author johnnys229
      Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

      JB,

      If you're going to market successfully, you must connect with your prospects where they're at. Ray elaborated on that point, so I don't need to repeat what he said.

      Regarding mechanisms.

      Mechanism is a term used by Eugene Schwartz in his book Breakthrough Advertising. A mechanism is simply a new way to make the basic promise work.

      For example, the first diet product made a simple promise: lose weight.

      As the market matured, simply offering a weight loss solution wasn't enough. Marketers needed new mechanisms to differentiate themselves from the pack.

      The grapefruit diet was a new mechanism. The Atkins diet was a new mechanism. There have been hundreds.

      Make sense?

      In a crowded marketplace, if you don't have a new mechanism, you must find some other way to differentiate.

      It could be your offer.

      It could be you.

      Just to name two.

      Alex
      Hi Alex,

      Thankyou for elaborating. I did a bit of research on these "mechanisms" as I was intrigued by what you said, and it strikes me as something I was thinking beforehand.

      The "levels of sophistication" of the market that he mentions increasing as the market matures and the same offers are made over and over again, e.g. "$25,934 in 7 days with no work!" - would surely according to this theory be ineffective? I know personally that when I see such claims I just ignore it, I am now blind to it. Unless they can give a credible "mechanism" to justify such bold claims, it will not even register with me. But that is *ME*, as for my market as a whole, is the general 'sophistication' such that bold claims like that would not work on the market in general, not just on me? Is the IM market mature enough for it to require a new unique mechanism? My instinct is telling me yes, but I am sure expert copywriters here would know better than I do, since my main problem does seem to be awareness only of myself, and not of my market as a whole.

      By the way, this may be a silly question I am not sure, but in what way is the unique mechanism different from the USP, if at all?



      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      I vote for being honest so that you can look yourself in the mirror and influence the people who will really care and remember you when you are gone - the mate and kids and grand kids.

      Of course, there are the legal issues as well.

      Then there is the image/reputation thing. Not to knock the copywriters, but it sounds like you are also marketing you - not someone else. Not that I am anywhere close,
      but I would come across more like Rich Schefren than Frank Kern. And I cannot even think about buying the products pitched by fake actors, or someone whose image I cannot stand or relate to.

      Yes, you have to market to your market. AND respond to your market. But, if you market to the lazy, push button easy people, then that may define you and those are the folks you will sell to. And, you might get tired of them and their refund requests and their attitude... Might bring you down as well.

      Look at multi-level marketing (MLM). I don't know any MLM made wealthy people and most of the programs pitch to the sit on the beach and make money crowd. Will anyone make money from a downline that is sitting on the beach racking up their credit card
      to buy drinks with umbrellas in them? Maybe that's why I don't know any wealthy MLM'ers. Same goes for having push button easy affiliates help you increase your sales
      and market reach and reputation.

      "More Money. More Business. More Time Off." is Rich Schrefren's slogan. A go getter and doer - the market you probably want - does not need to be sold on those ideas. Nor do they need to be lured by what to do with their money or time. (I totally do not relate to fancy cars and mansions and already know what I would do with more money and time.)

      What people do need to be shown or "sold" is HOW your product or service or information or system or mechanism will get them "more money, more business, and more time off" and improve their business and life in whatever ways you can help them, benefit them...

      So, to summarize, it's about your image and reputation, your Unique Selling Propositions
      and how you are going to benefit them and be better than the other's in the space(s)
      you are in
      bizgrower, some really interesting points there. You mention marketing to lazy, push button easy people, but if I don't do that, I would be excluding the vast majority of the market, since unfortunately most people are lazy. They don't want to roll their sleeves up and endure sleepless nights and pain to reach their goals. They want it quick, easy, and right now. It's human nature I guess. If I am in the MMO niche, and I am promising results with a lot of hard work, time, effort and pain, no one would choose my product over some other guy who is promising riches in 7 days. I don't think my business could survive by heavily restricting the type of buyer to a tiny percentage of the overall market. However I completely see where you're coming from with regard to not selling the idea of cars, mansions, free time and money in general. Focus on the HOW to a relatively 'savvy' market, but as copywriters we are supposed to pay most attention to benefits, right? Whatever the methods may be, however great they may be, the strongest benefit however you word it is getting rich. And that benefit has the strongest emotional impact. Like you, I am not sold on the fantasies of cars, mansions etc., but are we what most people in this market are like?

      The result of this thread is that I am more knowledgeable and had some epiphanies thanks to the brilliant contributions from great salesmen in this thread, but I am also in many ways more confused than before...
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      • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
        Hi JB,
        Split test? A sales approach to the get rich easy crowd versus the ones who know there will be work involved. See how you do in the short term and long term in terms of revenues, efficiency and pricing and relationship building... Schefren, Perry Marshall,
        Mark Hendricks... apparently are not doing too bad when it comes to revenues. I'm not saying you don't appeal to the make money and save time benefits - just explain the how more than the why. Maybe worth a look at Shefren and his current promotion of Pete Williams' Profit Hacks. Take care, Dan
        Signature

        "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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      • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
        Originally Posted by jb200800 View Post

        By the way, this may be a silly question I am not sure, but in what way is the unique mechanism different from the USP, if at all?
        I view them as the same. Both represent differentiation that's a benefit to the prospect.

        Regarding the IM niche, keep a close eye on successful promotions running on Clickbank and the WF WSO forum. Doing so will help you see what stage of sophistication the market is in.

        Alex
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