by max5ty
41 replies
When I was young we'd go visit my Grandparents.

They still had an outhouse.

My Grandpa painted his Dodge yearly with a paint brush.

My Grandma had doilies under everything.

It was a generation thing to them I guess...nothing out of the ordinary.

They lived through the depression.

Fuller Brush guy knocking didn't seem odd.

Buying encyclopedias was the "in thing".

Didn't think things seemed too crazy at the time.

As I got older, I considered them a "wack job".

I'm rethinking things now. Maybe.

...a picture of me with plaid bell bottom pants sporting a hot pair of platform shoes...

"Dad, what were you thinking?", my son said one day when he was looking through some old photos.

To him, I had become my grandparents. Didn't have an outhouse...it was those damn bell bottoms...or was it the white platform shoes?

I read a lot on here about Schwartz, Ogilvy, Caples, etc.

They're gone guys. They were a previous generation. Their stuff is out of touch with what we're dealing with.

Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, Instagram...they haven't a clue.

Can you imagine those old geezers with a Facebook page or a Twitter account?

Only reason most of you know their names is because someone with a little more marketing skills than you was waiting for you to discover the internet.

We all knew you were coming.

30 some years ago I was at the library studying ads.

Along came you, fueled with the latest course or ebook.

And now you're stuck...

You and a few thousand people bought the same books.

Dear Forum...

My ebook isn't selling.

My squeeze page isn't converting.

I'm broke and don't know what to do.

How can I get clients?

How can I make money?

Help.

Wahhhhhh......

Good news.

There are companies making billions.

They're not focused on buy buttons, squeeze pages, etc. They have very talented copywriters working for them. I know some of them.

They're creative. They have great imaginations. Some of the stuff they create blows my mind.

Which leads me to this...

I'm sick and tired of the belly aching about how your web page isn't converting. I'm sick and tired about you complaining how your ebook isn't moving off the shelves. I'm sick and tired hearing about how your diet crap isn't getting attention.

Not everyone is going to make it as a copywriter...regardless of what the course you bought told you.

Because your girlfriend told you your love note made her knees weak..doesn't mean you can sell a "get laid" program over the internet.

Because you think you look sexy when you look in the mirror, along with the latest Dan Kennedy course, doesn't mean you can sell dating advice to the whole world.

You may need to consider another career.

Anyways...

Saw a post on here about how some display ads sucked and some jumped on board knocking them. Of course they failed to realize they were knocking a couple companies that were worth millions and millions and millions...more than the bozo that sold them their latest get rich with copywriting course.

We've moved past Caples, Schwartz et all.

An ad you see in a magazine or on T.V. now has more behind the scenes input than ever before.

The typical big company ad now uses the services of approximately 30 different professional sources.

Companies that compile data on social trends. Companies that create social news. Companies that compile data on social demographics. Companies that spend millions on buying behaviour. Companies that spend millions on ad space behaviour. Companies that spend millions on eye tracking. Companies that spend millions studying mobile behaviour.

The rules have all changed.

Here's an interesting article that gives a little bit of insight into how things have changed.

Best wishes.

How the Brain Reveals Why We Buy: Scientific American
#rant
  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    And our credit-hungry, debt-creating society is off center and crashing as we speak.

    Having it now, with the debt load attached, instead of saving for it and really owning it, isn't a good shift of beliefs.

    Newer doesn't mean better.

    And studying what has worked before never hurt anyone. Perhaps buying into it as the be-all and end-all, and never being open to anything new, sure. To say we shouldn't study those who came before is downright silly: should doctors make it up as they go along? Insurance adjusters? Accountants? Engineers?

    Creative doesn't mean effective.

    Those display ads did not speak to me. They communicated nothing of substance. Nor did they communicate any message clearly to me. And so it is fair for me to say so. It's also fair for someone else to say I'm not their target market. In today's world, though, you would expect a postmodern approach where the image sends a different message to people at different socio-economic levels. In plain speak: I should still get something out of it.

    Maybe they're making billions because at this point they have the budget to throw a lousy message at enough people. Cash covers up a lot of stupidity.

    Max, I know you can say things to stir up the crowd, get the conversation started...it's effective. In this case I think it's just too overboard in one direction.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8879118].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
    medial prefrontal cortex...the TARGET.

    I've kept a close eye on eye tracking studies done at the Universityof Akron the last few years and have had a chance to observe how the results of these and other studies have influenced a couple of big marketing companies...

    Thanks Max for the new research...which addresses IDENTITY...lit up in the brain, medial prefrontal cortex.

    Justin Long was shown as the young cool hip kid in Apple commercials while John Hodgman was shown as the uncool PC...and Apple had a bump AFTER Long was busted for marijuana.

    Now, I was sitting in the chair getting my hair cut when the beautician announced she was gong to buy an EdenPURE space heater...and I questioned her and she said it was the "Cadillac".

    Now this lady barely made ends meet yet she was going to spring for a 300 dollar heater when a 49 dollar heater at Walmart could do the same job...

    She couldn't afford a Cadillac car, or anything TOP SHELF for that matter, but she wanted to display this heater in her beauty shop. I was baffled.

    When branding connects with identity, as it did in the Pepsi/Coke test, you have a winner.

    I agree Max about the criticism of some space ads, there are many "lame" (by warrior forum standards) space ads pulling in millions of dollars in business.

    So, branding, which takes a beating here, does have a place in remote direct marketing...and those savvy enough to incorporate it rarely have to worry about sales or profits.

    gjabiz

    PS. I'm going to do some research on using this "identity" trigger with the Psychic Power Gaze and revise my work when I have results come in...need to partner with a college researcher, all ideas appreciated.


    Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

    When I was young we'd go visit my Grandparents.

    They still had an outhouse.

    My Grandpa painted his Dodge yearly with a paint brush.

    My Grandma had doilies under everything.

    It was a generation thing to them I guess...nothing out of the ordinary.

    They lived through the depression.

    Fuller Brush guy knocking didn't seem odd.

    Buying encyclopedias was the "in thing".

    Didn't think things seemed too crazy at the time.

    As I got older, I considered them a "wack job".

    I'm rethinking things now. Maybe.

    ...a picture of me with plaid bell bottom pants sporting a hot pair of platform shoes...

    "Dad, what were you thinking?", my son said one day when he was looking through some old photos.

    To him, I had become my grandparents. Didn't have an outhouse...it was those damn bell bottoms...or was it the white platform shoes?

    I read a lot on here about Schwartz, Ogilvy, Caples, etc.

    They're gone guys. They were a previous generation. Their stuff is out of touch with what we're dealing with.

    Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, Instagram...they haven't a clue.

    Can you imagine those old geezers with a Facebook page or a Twitter account?

    Only reason most of you know their names is because someone with a little more marketing skills than you was waiting for you to discover the internet.

    We all knew you were coming.

    30 some years ago I was at the library studying ads.

    Along came you, fueled with the latest course or ebook.

    And now you're stuck...

    You and a few thousand people bought the same books.

    Dear Forum...

    My ebook isn't selling.

    My squeeze page isn't converting.

    I'm broke and don't know what to do.

    How can I get clients?

    How can I make money?

    Help.

    Wahhhhhh......

    Good news.

    There are companies making billions.

    They're not focused on buy buttons, squeeze pages, etc. They have very talented copywriters working for them. I know some of them.

    They're creative. They have great imaginations. Some of the stuff they create blows my mind.

    Which leads me to this...

    I'm sick and tired of the belly aching about how your web page isn't converting. I'm sick and tired about you complaining how your ebook isn't moving off the shelves. I'm sick and tired hearing about how your diet crap isn't getting attention.

    Not everyone is going to make it as a copywriter...regardless of what the course you bought told you.

    Because your girlfriend told you your love note made her knees weak..doesn't mean you can sell a "get laid" program over the internet.

    Because you think you look sexy when you look in the mirror, along with the latest Dan Kennedy course, doesn't mean you can sell dating advice to the whole world.

    You may need to consider another career.

    Anyways...

    Saw a post on here about how some display ads sucked and some jumped on board knocking them. Of course they failed to realize they were knocking a couple companies that were worth millions and millions and millions...more than the bozo that sold them their latest get rich with copywriting course.

    We've moved past Caples, Schwartz et all.

    An ad you see in a magazine or on T.V. now has more behind the scenes input than ever before.

    The typical big company ad now uses the services of approximately 30 different professional sources.

    Companies that compile data on social trends. Companies that create social news. Companies that compile data on social demographics. Companies that spend millions on buying behaviour. Companies that spend millions on ad space behaviour. Companies that spend millions on eye tracking. Companies that spend millions studying mobile behaviour.

    The rules have all changed.

    Here's an interesting article that gives a little bit of insight into how things have changed.

    Best wishes.

    How the Brain Reveals Why We Buy: Scientific American
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8879175].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

    I read a lot on here about Schwartz, Ogilvy, Caples, etc.

    They're gone guys. They were a previous generation. Their stuff is out of touch with what we're dealing with.

    Max,

    While I always enjoy reading your posts, I couldn't disagree more on this.

    Schwartz, Ogilvy, Caples, and the like are "out of touch"?

    That's nonsense. Just flat-out nonsense.

    Why is that the case?

    Because the basic human needs, wants, and desires have NOT changed.

    That said...

    Has the technology changed? Yes.

    Has the media changed? Yes, of course.

    Is the phrasing they used dated? In many cases, yes.

    However... the *CONCEPTS* they taught remain the same.

    If Joe Karbo was still alive, he'd probably kick your ass for suggesting otherwise.

    John
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8879546].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Johnny12345 View Post

      Max,

      While I always enjoy reading your posts, I couldn't disagree more on this.

      Schwartz, Ogilvy, Caples, and the like are "out of touch"?

      That's nonsense. Just flat-out nonsense.

      Why is that the case?

      Because the basic human needs, wants, and desires have NOT changed.

      That said...

      Has the technology changed? Yes.

      Has the media changed? Yes, of course.

      Is the phrasing they used dated? In many cases, yes.

      However... the *CONCEPTS* they taught remain the same.

      If Joe Karbo was still alive, he'd probably kick your ass for suggesting otherwise.

      John
      John; Damn, you said it first. Our understanding of how the brain works evolves over time. That's why we advertise differently than 50 years ago. Culture changes, language changes. And out understanding grows.

      Now that I've said that, the basic drives don't change.

      Our understanding of the brain changes...but the brain itself doesn't (not over 100 years, anyway).

      I'll read the article, because I'm here to learn. But we buy for the same reasons we did 100 years ago. Our understanding of those reasons just gets sharper.
      Signature
      One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

      Terence Fletcher: "There are no two words in the English language more harmful than Good Job." Whiplash.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8885233].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author max5ty
        Originally Posted by Johnny12345 View Post


        Cut the wings off your Citation X and take her down the runway. If you survive the crash, let us know how it worked out. Heck, maybe those early aeronautical pioneers, The Wright Brothers, were full of crap and wings are actually just ornamental.

        John
        Saw a UFO bout 35 years ago. Not kidding. It had no wings.

        I think we're looking at a future where we'll figure out that technology.

        Possibly, quite possibly, they're looking at our technology and wondering why we're so far behind the times

        Originally Posted by PetarPrchkov View Post


        I will study the classics to get my fundamentals. But...

        What do you think is more relevant today?
        Too lazy to look it up...but I said in a post some time ago, you need to understand the core principals.

        It's important to understand the "why" before you start tinkering with things.

        Originally Posted by perryny View Post

        Here's an interview with the author of that article. Also very interesting and helpful stuff. I've listened to this interview multiple times.
        Wow, didn't know that existed. Thanks.

        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


        Our understanding of the brain changes...but the brain itself doesn't (not over 100 years, anyway).
        Actually our brain is changing on the way we think when it comes to buying.

        Social Media changes our habits and thinking.

        Social Media can and is being tinkered with by big companies.

        To say our brain hasn't changed in 100 years is a lazy statement.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8885312].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
          Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

          Actually our brain is changing on the way we think when it comes to buying.

          Social Media changes our habits and thinking.

          Social Media can and is being tinkered with by big companies.
          The NY Times article and video are fascinating... this is the first time it hit me about what and how the data being mined is actually.

          Exciting and scary at the same time. Especially when it comes to manipulating voter habits.

          I haven't seen anything in the past, or in the article and video suggesting our brain is changing. Everything here suggests a better understanding of how our existing brain functions.

          Marvin
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8885481].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author max5ty
            Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post



            But the sales letters, videos... and even those tearsheet type pages still use the same basic strategies and techniques that were executed 50 years ago.

            No matter how smart we get. No matter how many ways we can perform our due diligence. No matter how much we acknowledge, "Hey, I'm being sold to." It'll still work.

            Because we make decisions based on emotion.

            Anyways...

            Mark
            In the last 50 years, we've advanced more in technology than in the whole history of the world.

            It's because our brains have advanced.

            Most had the Mayan prediction all wrong. They didn't predict an end to the world, they predicted an new age of enlightenment. Many scientist have said the time table placed on their prediction was miscalculated by several years.

            How much more enlightened can you get when you can google anything you want and get millions of results?

            They had it all right...all along.

            Our brains ARE advancing.

            If we all thought like we did 50 years ago, we wouldn't have the brain power to make the advances we do now.

            Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston View Post


            I haven't seen anything in the past, or in the article and video suggesting our brain is changing. Everything here suggests a better understanding of how our existing brain functions.

            Marvin
            Your brain can be manipulated.

            Science is showing us how to do that.

            We didn't have that knowledge in the past.

            The article I linked to shows how we're discovering what habits people have. I have several other studies that show how the brain is being manipulated.

            In a blind taste test, most preferred Pepsi over Coke.

            In a test where the label was shown, most picked Coke over Pepsi.

            Coke had a stronger brand message according to most studies, even though most preferred the taste of Pepsi.

            Using science, we can now manipulate sales.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8885529].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
              Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

              Most had the Mayan prediction all wrong. They didn't predict an end to the world, they predicted an new age of enlightenment. Many scientist have said the time table placed on their prediction was miscalculated by several years.

              How much more enlightened can you get when you can google anything you want and get millions of results?
              "Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance." - Immanuel Kant

              The whole Mayan thing WAS one big marketing ploy.

              I made a couple people some good money because of it.

              Being able able to Google something doesn't make you enlightened. Information overloaded, maybe. I think a lot of us can agree, it takes legit researching skills to really get something out of a Google search. "It was the answers we had right, but the questions we had wrong." Most people don't know what the right questions are, because they're still being influenced by the media, pop culture and advertising.

              People believe they're thinking for themselves. But in reality, they're just following trends. (Ironically, the information that Google and Facebook compiles is somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy.)

              I do agree. Things are changing. The way we buy things has shifted dramatically in the last 10 years. Likewise, the way people respond to marketing is changing too. Google tried to explain it in ZMOT a few years ago. But they didn't dive deep enough.

              But again...

              It's not enlightenment. Wrong word. I don't think we're (the vast majority) more "conscious." We just live in an entirely different reality. And we're adjusting.

              Mark

              P.S. People might be more advanced in some ways. But in other ways we've gotten stupid. We used to be able to grow our own food and thrive in nature. Today, most people don't even spend enough time in nature to know what's edible around them.

              P.P.S. Our brain "receives" way more information than we're conscious of. It's sad really. Googling hasn't solved that. We still have more questions than answers. And want solutions. We NEED solutions. We become irrational - when we're looking for solutions. Strong, emotional copy will always work - if it connects with that need.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8885668].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

                P.S. People might be more advanced in some ways. But in other ways we've gotten stupid. We used to be able to grow our own food and thrive in nature. Today, most people don't even spend enough time in nature to know what's edible around them.
                Interesting you should say that Mark. I remember a few years back some egghead saying the same thing. Saying that the brain has mutated and regressed from the hunter-gather stage. That we are a lot DUMBER now - not smarter at all (and you only need to take a trip to the mall or WalMart to see evidence of that - right?) Hang about...I'll see if I can find it. Think I bookmarked it.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8886088].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston View Post

            I haven't seen anything in the past, or in the article and video suggesting our brain is changing. Everything here suggests a better understanding of how our existing brain functions.
            Marvin
            Exactly mon ami. Just as a BIGGER brain doesn't necessarily mean a smarter brain. For instance whales and elephants have much bigger brains than our Homo ones.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8886115].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
              Banned
              Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

              For instance whales and elephants have much bigger brains than our Homo ones.
              Is that as a percentage in relation to body size? Just curious. Cheers. - Frank
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8886260].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Memetics
            Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston View Post

            The NY Times article and video are fascinating... this is the first time it hit me about what and how the data being mined is actually.

            Exciting and scary at the same time. Especially when it comes to manipulating voter habits.

            I haven't seen anything in the past, or in the article and video suggesting our brain is changing. Everything here suggests a better understanding of how our existing brain functions.

            Marvin
            The human brain is essentially unchanged over the last 50,000 years but what we are seeing now is the expression of previously dormant cognitive based genes coming to the fore to deal with the huge amount of information that we in the modern world are exposed too.

            These genes originally evolved during periods of major environmental change in prehistory, where the adaptation to such seismic shifts in survivability were essential to your existence.

            Their remit was a simple one: Creativity and rapid assimilation of new information. Accurate assessment of new survival situations and creative solutions to deal with them. As these abilities eventually became dominant and eventually crossed the genetic/Cultural barrier they evolved into "Memes" which are sometimes called mind viruses.

            These memes then spread throughout the population and freed others from having to spend their time working out solutions to such threats and allowed them to occupy themselves with other things likely to increase their chances of genetic propagation like sexual selection (an exaption of natural selection)

            The memes themselves however kept evolving outside the human body and now with the advent of civilisation they're back to interacting with their original creators in the new "civilised" environment except this time the brain isn't working from scratch and the new partially formed informational input is yet again triggering greater and greater creativity by expressing the relevant brain hardware.

            From a copywriting perspective this has one major advantage. Memes were generally spread by storytelling and imitation, but in tribal societies social memes were spread primarily through narratives (think fables, legends etc) So important was this information to you that the brain actually partially suspended the critical factor to let you allow the meme access to your unconscious (behavioural) mind.

            True: you can critically analyse the information to an extent but the emotion in the narrative gets through and emotions are the bodyguard of beliefs and changing beliefs is persuasion and persuasion in the written form is copywriting.

            So....back to square one: Good interesting emotional copy = results.
            Signature

            First we believe.....then we consider.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8887306].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author max5ty
              Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

              I'm still convinced it was alien intervention that created the boom in technology.

              Not man.

              Mark
              LOL...me too but I didn't want to go there.

              I ran out of thanks but I'll catch up.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8887319].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    @JOhnny12345...ummm, you do know how he (Karbo) passed away right?

    He was being interviewed by a news reporter. She was asking him some questions that got him so upset he had a heart attack.

    @Jason Kanigan...you asked if we should study doctors from the past? There was some weird crap that once was considered helpful by the medical community. Google some of the medical practices of the past and then tell me why things are different with our modern technology.

    @gjabiz...interesting post. I'm sending you a P.M. in a little bit.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8879898].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      @JOhnny12345...ummm, you do know how he (Karbo) passed away right?

      He was being interviewed by a news reporter. She was asking him some questions that got him so upset he had a heart attack.

      @Jason Kanigan...you asked if we should study doctors from the past? There was some weird crap that once was considered helpful by the medical community. Google some of the medical practices of the past and then tell me why things are different with our modern technology.

      @gjabiz...interesting post. I'm sending you a P.M. in a little bit.
      Yup, lobotomies and forced sterilization are bad, m'kay?

      Vascular surgeons probably shouldn't start over from scratch every time a new student begins their learning, though, should they?

      At least you spelled my name right.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8879911].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author max5ty
        Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

        Yup, lobotomies and forced sterilization are bad, m'kay?

        Vascular surgeons probably shouldn't start over from scratch every time a new student begins their learning, though, should they?

        At least you spelled my name right.
        Thanks for the reply Jason.

        My point is this...

        copywriting/marketing is a science.

        It's not all about the headline, the deck copy, the offer...we're learning more and more as we become more advanced.

        When you make the offer...where you make the offer...it's all becoming more relevant, and it's obvious by the tons of money that are poured into the study of selling by big companies.

        You may have an offer to teach people how to sell on the phone...

        big companies have moved way beyond your technology by studying the science behind the "why and how".

        My goals and your goals are quite different.

        I don't have the time or energy to pittle around with offers in the price range you do. Nothing wrong with what you do...it's where you're at in your goals at the time.

        Eventually, if you want to advance, you'll realize there's a whole other world where the big boys play.

        The whole other world isn't looking back at the passed away "sales people". It's a world full of creative and eager pioneers.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8879934].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author CopyMonster
          Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

          When you make the offer...where you make the offer...it's all becoming more relevant, and it's obvious by the tons of money that are poured into the study of selling by big companies.
          I think Schwartz covered this in market awareness (Breakthrough Advertising, ch. 2). You don't start by telling Bob your widget is $9.95 if he doesn't know what the heck it is or what it's for. But good to know the big companies are catching up. Thanks for the 411 Max :-)

          On a side note, since you touched on data, I recently read (Business Week I think) that the hot jobs in the economist field are not in institutions like universities or research organizations, but with the likes of Google and Facebook. They have TONS of data that economists can delve into to see how people make decisions and behave... At the end of the day, just because you have data it doesn't automatically mean you're smart. It's what you do with it that counts. Big companies still make mistakes when it comes to product decisions and the marketing side of things (insert your favorite product/company fail here) - they just have the opportunity to make them on a bigger scale is all.
          Signature
          Scary good...
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8880003].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
          Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

          Thanks for the reply Jason.

          My point is this...

          copywriting/marketing is a science.

          It's not all about the headline, the deck copy, the offer...we're learning more and more as we become more advanced.

          When you make the offer...where you make the offer...it's all becoming more relevant, and it's obvious by the tons of money that are poured into the study of selling by big companies.

          You may have an offer to teach people how to sell on the phone...

          big companies have moved way beyond your technology by studying the science behind the "why and how".

          My goals and your goals are quite different.

          I don't have the time or energy to pittle around with offers in the price range you do. Nothing wrong with what you do...it's where you're at in your goals at the time.

          Eventually, if you want to advance, you'll realize there's a whole other world where the big boys play.

          The whole other world isn't looking back at the passed away "sales people". It's a world full of creative and eager pioneers.
          Actually, Max, my training is quite scientific and begins with the brain and how our physiology helps us make decisions. Not one-liners or comebacks or something. I train in face-to-face selling also, not only phone sales--but that's what WF wants so that's what I talk about. Many customers have mentioned that in their long learning period, they've never found anything like it.

          Maybe I should talk about that more in my marketing.

          But are you saying that big companies don't use telemarketing to sell??
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8881492].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Memetics
            Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

            Actually, Max, my training is quite scientific and begins with the brain and how our physiology helps us make decisions.

            Interesting, if you don't mind me asking, Do you use a working model derived from the Facial Feedback Hypothesis?
            Signature

            First we believe.....then we consider.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8881572].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
              Originally Posted by Memetics View Post

              Interesting, if you don't mind me asking, Do you use a working model derived from the Facial Feedback Hypothesis?
              Never heard of it.

              My content is my own. That's why people haven't seen it anywhere else.

              Would be pretty hard to do some sort of facial feedback process in an over-the-phone conversation, don't you think?
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8881623].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
                Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

                Never heard of it.

                My content is my own. That's why people haven't seen it anywhere else.

                Would be pretty hard to do some sort of facial feedback process in an over-the-phone conversation, don't you think?
                You mean smiling while talking to potential/clients on the phone is not a good thing .
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8881654].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Memetics
                It was the bit about "How our physiology helps us make decisions" that made me wonder, in particular the word "Physiology"

                As you can't observe someones physiology over the phone how will this help them make a decision?

                It's not a process of feedback to the salesperson from the potential customer, it's artificially inducing a physiological shift in them which in turn induces the relevant congruent emotion.

                There's an entire science called "Haptics" based on the phenomena.
                Signature

                First we believe.....then we consider.

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8881668].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author bad golfer
    Come on, now, the classics will ALWAYS be relevant.

    At least, that's how I run my business.

    I mean, I STILL wear bell bottoms and white platform shoes.

    Ah, ah, ah, staying alive,....
    Signature
    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
    - Jack Trout
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8880072].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author max5ty
      Originally Posted by bad golfer View Post

      Come on, now, the classics will ALWAYS be relevant.

      At least, that's how I run my business.

      I mean, I STILL wear bell bottoms and white platform shoes.

      Staying alive, ah, ah, ah....
      Joe, it's all ok...really.

      Gone With The Wind probably wouldn't sell a lot of tickets nowadays if it was playing at the local Cinematrix.

      I too look back on the past and wish we were still that simple about things.

      We're in a new age..."buy my BS" doesn't work as easily as it did yesterday.

      "Great News...I'm a millionaire from Google"...only works with the dudes from Uranastan.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8880097].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author bad golfer
    Comrade, in Uranastan, Google searches you.
    Signature
    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
    - Jack Trout
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8880122].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author max5ty
      Originally Posted by bad golfer View Post

      Comrade, in Uranastan, Google searches you.
      Was actually there a couple weeks ago...

      hello? Can you believe it.

      #Uranastan.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8880163].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    It's kind of a fusion of the old melting into the new, isn't it?

    There are certain emotional and psychological truths that will NEVER change.

    But the mediums to connect with those truths has definitely changed.

    I admit it...

    I'm totally ignorant when it comes to things like Facebook marketing.

    Recently...

    I had the chance to work with a real FB expert. When I listened to what he was doing, I thought to myself, "This could totally change how copy is written, because it allows you to enter a conversation in ways that PPC, magazines... or freeway signs just can't."

    And since viable, relevant traffic is one of the biggest problems people deal with, learning these new tools should be required for marketers (including copywriters.)

    I admit...

    I haven't taken the time to learn - even though I know I should.

    Anyways...

    Mark
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8881215].message }}
  • Doesn't matter if it's 1814, 1914 or 2014 - human nature and "how to sell" stays the same (sometimes you adjust a touch to fit in with whatever the "new" advertising medium is).

    There was a glitch in November 1957 when for 7 hours the "alternative choice" close didn't work quite as well as usual.

    It was fixed at 5.45pm when Mrs Smith from New York chose the black pair of shoes over the blue pair.

    Max's grandparents bought for the same reasons everybody else buys.

    Emotional justified with logic.




    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8881320].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Well, let's get our definitions straight

    Physiology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "The principal level of focus of physiology is at the level of organs and systems within systems." In this case, the brain.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8881675].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Memetics
      I see what you mean now, I would have used the words "Neurophysiology" or "Neurology" myself. My mistake.

      From a sales or persuasion perspective the customers "Physiology" is the non verbal communication they're telegraphing to us visually.

      Try reading it again with a pencil sideways in your mouth and you might even find it funny....
      Signature

      First we believe.....then we consider.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8881708].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    Odd that people who believe in scientific advertising turn a blind eye to advances in science, isn't it?

    I find it odd that anyone would dismiss the contributions made by the pioneers and early giants of direct marketing, whose shoulders we all firmly stand on today.

    John
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8882311].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    Thanks for all the interesting comments.

    I'm constantly learning and would hope others maintain an open mind.

    We all have different opinions.

    Having studied past copywriters in greater detail than most here...I can tell you they didn't always agree with each other.

    My point is, we're dealing with an ever changing science. True, people haven't changed, but we're now learning more and more about people and their buying habits than ever before.

    We're living in a data driven society. The big players are hiring expert help from scientists, psychologists, etc. to the tune of millions. Obviously they're onto something or else they wouldn't be making the cash and dominating their markets like they are.

    This is info that was not known or even considered in times past.

    I read about how important avatars are.

    Guess what?

    We now know you can put your entire avatar together with all the info you know or think you know about a person...but the big players have gone quite a few steps further.

    We now go into their habits and what causes them to make buying decisions. We do this through scientific studies.

    If you're reading this thinking these advances don't apply to what you're selling, you'd be sadly uninformed.

    Hopefully, some of you will quit living in the past and start to look at the advances that have been made when it comes to understanding our clients.

    Quoting some dude that lived during another era doesn't put money in your pocket. Those who fail to change with changing trends will always struggle.

    If you're making 100 thousand a year right now...you may think you've arrived.

    Guess what?

    There's a whole new level of success you haven't achieved because you're still humming songs from a bygone era.

    One thing I love to do is read about modern trends and technology. Buying habits, etc.

    How did Target learn to target pregnant women? And why did they? Why did they decide to target them in their second trimester, and how in the world could they do that without the women knowing?

    Some great minds were put to work.

    I appreciate the old timers, but am more focused on recognizing the achievements of the modern timers.

    If you've got some time, here's an article that is very interesting.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/ma...nted=all&_r=1&

    Thanks again.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8884714].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      I appreciate the old timers, but am more focused on recognizing the achievements of the modern timers.

      Max,

      I get your point. And it's a good one. But I don't think anyone discounts what modern science has brought to direct marketing.

      For example, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a professional copywriter who doesn't have a dog-eared copy of Robert Cialdini's book.

      But my point is that the old-timers established the fundamentals that still apply. Because humans haven't changed much, their work is still valid.

      In fact, this is true in other fields, too...

      The Wright Brothers established how a basic airplane should be configured. Most automobiles, today, still have four rubber tires and a drive train -- just like Henry Ford's early cars. And my local department store stocks tons of filament-based light bulbs just like the one Edison invented.

      I have great respect for all early pioneers -- those who created something from virtually nothing. Today, in large part, all we're doing is refining their work.

      But maybe I'm wrong. Let's do a test...

      Cut the wings off your Citation X and take her down the runway. If you survive the crash, let us know how it worked out. Heck, maybe those early aeronautical pioneers, The Wright Brothers, were full of crap and wings are actually just ornamental.

      John
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8884939].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author perryny
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      How did Target learn to target pregnant women? And why did they? Why did they decide to target them in their second trimester, and how in the world could they do that without the women knowing?

      If you've got some time, here's an article that is very interesting.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/ma...nted=all&_r=1&
      Here's an interview with the author of that article. Also very interesting and helpful stuff. I've listened to this interview multiple times.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8885071].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Petar P
    From the article max5ty linked to:

    Our relationship to e-mail operates on the same principle. When a computer chimes or a smartphone vibrates with a new message, the brain starts anticipating the neurological “pleasure” (even if we don’t recognize it as such) that clicking on the e-mail and reading it provides. That expectation, if unsatisfied, can build until you find yourself moved to distraction by the thought of an e-mail sitting there unread — even if you know, rationally, it’s most likely not important.
    This is one of the reasons I don't have a Facebook account and don't use notification and novelty based products/software.

    Though, I think that if you are aware of the addiction that notifications cause, you will be able resist those urges, but consciously. And it will be difficult.

    For ex. You will stop checking email 10 times a day.

    Also I see all people just refresh their facebook page every second, just to get the dopamine rush of seeing new stuff all the time.

    And big companies know how to use the dopamine reward circuitry to make big profits.

    That's the future, unfortunately.

    Edit: Internet browsing and constantly opening new content gives dopamine rushes. Limit it to the important stuff only. Although, that's very difficult.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8884852].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Petar P
    I've just finished reading the article.

    The information is GOLD. Predicting when consumers are more likely to change their buying habits and sending them promotions and stuff to create a reward circuit. Maybe this is known among experienced marketers, but I didn't know that they build profiles about you and have accurate predictions of what you might buy.

    Also the case about Proctor and Gamble. They found out what people wanted and gave it to them, by asking them. So instead of telling them that their product will remove the odors, they marketed the product as a freshener to be used after cleaning and they created new habits.

    One thing the article ignores is customer service which might be more impactful than a buying habit.

    Maybe some of the stuff that Target does are unethical, like spying on pregnant women. But...

    It's up to everyone to take what is useful.

    “Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own.”

    I have a question for you Max(I assume that's your name).

    I will study the classics to get my fundamentals. But...

    What do you think is more relevant today?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8885048].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    People are so used to be marketed to.

    That makes our brain and way of thinking... evolve.

    And yet, the fundamentals of marketing STILL work.

    Does the way personal information is gathered change the landscape of marketing? Yes, but only in the sense that we can enter a conversation (i.e. position a campaign) more deliberately (like through extreme Facebook ad targeting.)

    But the sales letters, videos... and even those tearsheet type pages still use the same basic strategies and techniques that were executed 50 years ago.

    No matter how smart we get. No matter how many ways we can perform our due diligence. No matter how much we acknowledge, "Hey, I'm being sold to." It'll still work.

    Because we make decisions based on emotion.

    Anyways...

    Mark
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8885480].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Here you go -

    Although we are now surrounded by the technological and medical benefits of a scientific revolution, these have masked an underlying decline in brain power which is set to continue into the future leading to the ultimate dumbing-down of the human species, Professor Crabtree said.
    His argument is based on the fact that for more than 99 per cent of human evolutionary history, we have lived as hunter-gatherer communities surviving on our wits, leading to big-brained humans. Since the invention of agriculture and cities, however, natural selection on our intellect has effective stopped and mutations have accumulated in the critical “intelligence” genes.
    “I would wager that if an average citizen from Athens of 1000BC were to appear suddenly among us, he or she would be among the brightest and most intellectually alive of our colleagues and companions, with a good memory, a broad range of ideas and a clear-sighted view of important issues,” Professor Crabtree says in a provocative paper published in the journal Trends in Genetics.
    Human intelligence 'peaked thousands of years ago and we've been on an intellectual and emotional decline ever since' - Science - News - The Independent
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8886110].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    I'm still convinced it was alien intervention that created the boom in technology.

    Not man.

    Mark
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8887016].message }}

Trending Topics