If It Was So Easy Everybody Would Do It, Right?

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It's baffling how little respect copywriters get as a whole. Not that people should bow down and worship them at the altar.

But of all the disciplines of Internet marketing it's safe to say copywriters help run the engine the most.

But still the ones I know have to fight and claw over price, with one hand and face client over expectations with the other. In addition to dodging shysters and rip-off artist who want to use their talents to stiff customers.

One of my best friends daughter is thinking about becoming a freelance copywriter. Any advice from copywriters who read this (warnings included) would be appreciated. I plan to send her this link.

Thanks.
#easy
  • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
    Copywriters who eschew price shoppers usually don't have respect and fee-quibbling problems with their prospective clients.

    Alex
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

      Copywriters who eschew price shoppers usually don't have respect and fee-quibbling problems with their prospective clients.

      Alex
      Good point, but doesn't that come with the territory.

      At some point many will ask how much will it cost and start comparing your price with others ... or how much they have in their bank account. Right?
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      • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
        Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

        Good point, but doesn't that come with the territory.

        At some point many will ask how much will it cost and start comparing your price with others ... or how much they have in their bank account. Right?
        Of course. That makes prudent business sense, to want to get the best deal.

        But that often is a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

        It also means the copywriter didn't sell it well enough. If the customer has the budget but doesn't see the value, it's never going to happen.

        Speaking from the female perspective, she's in for a bit of a battle, but definitely not one that's insurmountable.

        She has to 1) find her voice, 2) know what she's passionate and/or curious about (because these can become her specialties, thereby allowing her to charge more by being a niche service provider), and 3) know the value of her work.

        People are going to push back against her every day. As you said, they're trying to get the best value for their business.

        When you create something out of thin air, it gets difficult not to take that personally. It sometimes can feel like not only did they not like the work, they don't like YOU.

        Understand that it's a personal business. It's your talent and skill working its magic on the page. It's their business and livelihood in your hands.

        It's hardly ever personal, just business.

        I agree there's a low barrier to entry, but just as with any business - if you're good and constantly work on improvement, you'll hang around. If you suck and sell snake oil, well - word gets around quickly in this day and age.

        Hope it helps!
        Angie


        P.S. - On a more personal note, I've (amazingly enough) gotten to the point in my career where up-and-coming writers and aspiring writers occasionally reach out for advice. Up-and-comers I point toward mentors or courses. Aspiring writers see my credentials and usually ask me what college/degree/course they should take.

        As someone who's uncomfortably familiar with Sallie Mae, I disagree strenuously with the belief that you need to go to school to get an education.

        With passion, dedication, curiosity, and DISCIPLINE, she'll be well on her way to mastering the art while the indecisive languish away in school.

        I have a friend who never finished her English degree who's beginning to flourish as a copywriter with some help from me and a 20+ year veteran. If your friend's daughter wants it, she can have it. She just has to work for it.
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        • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
          Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post


          Speaking from the female perspective, she's in for a bit of a battle, but definitely not one that's insurmountable.

          All the points offered so far are golden, but I'm sure her ears will perk up a little more when she reads a post coming from a woman's perspective of the business.
          Being it's still pretty much a man's domain.

          How have you overcame or been able to survive or deal with the "Good Ole Boys Network" or mentality. Or have you?.
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          • Profile picture of the author RogozRazvan
            From experience, there are generally two scenarios:

            1) People investing for the first time in copywriting. They believe this is a commodity and the simple existence of a page will make people buy just like the simple presence of a logo will build your brand.

            They tend to focus a lot on the price.

            It reminds me how about two years ago, after about 4 hours of negotiation, we've finally came down to the price. His price offer was I think 25 times lower than my lowest quote.

            Why?

            "My copywriter can write this for this".

            And no, he never gave up on that price.

            And there are ...

            2) People who spent money before on copy, that copy bombed (or worked) and they understand that $1000 spent on copy that DOES work is a lot better than $250 spent on copy that does not work.

            That unless you have other goals (like making your site look good for Flippa) any money invested into something that does not actually generate sales is as good as lost or at least close by.

            My best clients were those who invested before, lost money, lost time and then searched for a new copywriter. Why?

            Because they never argued "why". I let them proof it and they paid me right and let me write whatever I considered could sell.

            The lesson?

            Focus on people who hired copywriters before and who know that copywriting is not a commodity.

            And this lesson is almost universal ...

            You can buy a phone for $200 that barely works, that freezes and that will break in six months ...

            Or you can buy a phone for $300 that does everything right.
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          • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
            Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

            All the points offered so far are golden, but I'm sure her ears will perk up a little more when she reads a post coming from a woman's perspective of the business.
            Being it's still pretty much a man's domain.

            How have you overcame or been able to survive or deal with the "Good Ole Boys Network" or mentality. Or have you?.
            For one, I'm pretty dude like.

            I speak chick pretty fluently, but I don't always understand what I'm saying. I think the ol' brain was meant to go to a pretty NOT politically correct fella out there somewhere.

            I swear, I have lots of tattoos, I sing in a rock/blues band, and I play dodgeball in an adult co-ed league. Yes, those exist LOL.

            I also believe in telling it like it is. My bluntness is legendary.

            Even if she's not as manly a chick as I can often be, there's one thing she needs above all else: thick skin.

            That's probably what all the successful female copywriters out there have in common - they've figured out how to let the criticism roll off their backs, where a lot of women would slide down a slippery slope to failure believing they're not good enough.

            We girls are often raised to be a sensitive lot. Such BS.

            It's definitely a male-dominated field. But the great thing about copywriting is there is SO MUCH business out there. I don't even feel like I have competition - there's more than enough work to go around. You just gotta find it.

            And the good ol' boys network includes some pretty talented gals, FYI. Ask Lorrie Morgan-Ferrero, who runs in the same circles as Carlton.
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            • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
              Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

              For one, I'm pretty dude like.

              I speak chick pretty fluently, but I don't always understand what I'm saying. I think the ol' brain was meant to go to a pretty NOT politically correct fella out there somewhere.

              I swear, I have lots of tattoos, I sing in a rock/blues band, and I play dodgeball in an adult co-ed league. Yes, those exist LOL.

              I also believe in telling it like it is. My bluntness is legendary.
              That's a good example of using persona in marketing. And polarization too.

              You have successfully differentiated yourself from the horde of copywriters roaming the earth.

              Alex
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              • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                If your friends daughter is more the introverted type,
                then there is still a place for her.

                Marcia Yudkin has a training for those type of people on how
                to get ahead in the biz.

                Best,
                Ewen

                P.S. Carline Anglade Cole is in the A league
                of direct mail copywriters.
                Boardroom who only hire the best copywriters in the biz,
                hired a women recently. So being a woman is no barrier.
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                • Profile picture of the author Will Compton
                  Dear The Niche Man's Best Friend's Daughter,

                  Here's a simple two step action plan to becoming a top copywriter:

                  1. Read this letter from Gary Halbert
                  2. Write copy for ten thousand hours

                  But it's like climbing over a steep mountain to the other side where a city of gold is waiting for you.

                  Yeah it's going to be lotsa work... but it's worth it

                  Plus, it's much easier to get over the steepest part of the climb in the beginning with a skilled guide whose already made it.

                  What I mean is: Apprentice yourself under The Masters like: Claude Hopkins, Vic Schwab, Robert Collier, John Caples, Gary Halbert, Dan Kennedy, John Carlton, David Ogilvy, Ted Nicholas, Gary Bencivenga, Bob Bly, Joseph Sugarman and Jay Abraham by reading everything they've written, especially their copy.

                  Sincerely,
                  Will

                  P.S.
                  And if you want my Jedi Masters Swipe File with a bunch of these guys' ads, at no cost, send me a pm.
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                • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
                  Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                  So being a woman is no barrier.
                  I never meant to imply it's a barrier. Simply that it's a bit more challenging.

                  Even outgoing women like myself can have problems asserting ideas and pushing back against folks who are set on an opinion that may wind up backfiring or flopping.

                  There's an internal battle in a majority of women - the part that wants to do what she instinctively knows will work, and the part that wants to please. Unfortunately, that's an ingrained trait in many, many women - the desire to please. That can be a setback in an industry that's largely based on opinions (at least, until the data comes in).

                  I simply think that female copywriters have to be aware of societal influences and internal pressures when deciding whether or not to argue a point/pursue a client/etc.
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              • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
                Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

                You have successfully differentiated yourself from the horde of copywriters roaming the earth.
                Alex
                This summer, on TriStar Pictures, audiences are screaming in their seats when they see, "The Copywriter Horde!" Thousands of blood-thirsty copywriters roam the earth--out for blood and a 10 percent participation deal!


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                • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
                  Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

                  This summer, on TriStar Pictures, audiences are screaming in their seats when they see, "The Copywriter Horde!" Thousands of blood-thirsty copywriters roam the earth--out for blood and a 10 percent participation deal!

                  If that was a real movie, this would be me on opening night:



                  ...and yes, I'd be wearing a red leather jumpsuit just like that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
        Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

        Good point, but doesn't that come with the territory.

        At some point many will ask how much will it cost and start comparing your price with others ... or how much they have in their bank account. Right?
        Originally Posted by BudaBrit View Post

        Alex,

        This is my biggest problem right now. How do you find the right prospective clients? What's the best way of wheedling the time-wasters and undervaluers out?
        1. Weed out the price shoppers as quickly as possible. They usually make it obvious who they are, so it's not difficult.

        2. Never quote a price until 1) you've got a thorough idea of what the project requires, and 2) you've established your value in the mind of the prospective client

        Alex
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    • Profile picture of the author BudaBrit
      Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

      Copywriters who eschew price shoppers usually don't have respect and fee-quibbling problems with their prospective clients.

      Alex
      Alex,

      This is my biggest problem right now. How do you find the right prospective clients? What's the best way of wheedling the time-wasters and undervaluers out?
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      • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
        Originally Posted by BudaBrit View Post

        Alex,

        This is my biggest problem right now. How do you find the right prospective clients? What's the best way of wheedling the time-wasters and undervaluers out?
        You start by specializing in a niche that isn't riddled with broke people (hint: real business owners, not people in MLM or who sell products on clickbank or in the wso section). Then you make a targeted list and market to them using direct mail.
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  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
    Years ago, no one knew what a copywriter was. Now everyone who can pick up a pen wants to do it, because somehow they've become convinced that it's easy.

    For your friend's daughter: I'd advise pursuing a career in something with a higher barrier to entry, more objective standards of proficiency, verifiable criteria for success, and less relationship-dependent prospects for work. And make sure it's a growing field, of course.

    Medicine or tech security or law enforcement for example. And remember, if you have in-depth knowledge and experience in a field with a high barrier to entry, it's an easy pivot into writing about it -- including marketing writing, such as copywriting. As a specialist writer, you'll even have better odds of success.

    What you don't want to do is throw your hat into the ring of a field with a low barrier to entry at the same time that everyone and his niece is doing so. Especially if you're doing it just because you think it's a shortcut to the easy life.

    That being said: if you're going to win, you'll stick with it in spite of all setbacks, and if you're going to lose, it's best to lose quick and early. ... So if you think you love copywriting, give it a shot!

    Presuming your friend's daughter is a youngster, however, I would steer any kid of mine away from any career in writing. Writing (including copywriting) is something you can get into anytime, so I'd advise using your youth and energy to acquire more specialized knowledge, experience, contacts, etc.
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    • Profile picture of the author BudaBrit
      Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

      Years ago, no one knew what a copywriter was. Now everyone who can pick up a pen wants to do it, because somehow they've become convinced that it's easy.

      For your friend's daughter: I'd advise pursuing a career in something with a higher barrier to entry, more objective standards of proficiency, verifiable criteria for success, and less relationship-dependent prospects for work. And make sure it's a growing field, of course.

      Medicine or tech security or law enforcement for example. And remember, if you have in-depth knowledge and experience in any field with a high barrier to entry, it's an easy pivot into writing about it -- including marketing writing, such as copywriting. As a specialist writer, you'll even have better odds of success.

      What you don't want to do is throw your hat into the ring of a field with a low barrier to entry at the same time that everyone and his niece is doing so. Especially if you're doing it just because you think it's a shortcut to the easy life.

      That being said: if you're going to win, you'll stick with it in spite of all setbacks, and if you're going to lose, it's best to lose quick and early. ... So if you think you love copywriting, give it a shot!

      Presuming your friend's daughter is a youngster, however, I would steer any kid of mine away from any career in writing. Writing (including copywriting) is something you can get into anytime, so I'd advise using your young energy to acquire more specialized knowledge, experience, contacts, etc.
      Really? Copywriting has a rather high barrier to entry, high standards of proficiency and obvious returns.

      I'd say it was one of the hardest things to get into, unless you're a freakish natural. Those are in pretty short supply, though.
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      • Profile picture of the author splitTest
        Originally Posted by BudaBrit View Post

        Really? Copywriting has a rather high barrier to entry, high standards of proficiency and obvious returns.

        I'd say it was one of the hardest things to get into, unless you're a freakish natural. Those are in pretty short supply, though.
        No way, dude. Anyone who can write (well or not) can call themselves a copywriter. That's a pretty low barrier to entry. Just take the AIWA course (or not) and hang out your shingle on the interwebs. Voila -- you're a copywriter!

        And standards of proficiency? It's not like there's a test or certification.

        On the one hand, standards are subjective. Some copywriter wrote the "Got milk?" campaign. It succeeded in bumper stickers and failed in milk. Another copywriter may have had a better idea, but it got shot down by the AE because it wasn't "cool" enough. Even standards at the highest levels of agency copywriting are pretty murky.

        In fact, your own experiences with "undervaluers" points to how subjective standards in the field are. Every "undervaluer" out there probably thinks he knows what makes a great ad -- you know, just like that funny one or that cool one he saw on tv. Standards of "proficiency" are subjective at all levels.

        Of course, returns aren't subjective, but anyone can claim they've made their clients millions. I've seen copywriters make claims like that on their websites ... who also have profiles on Elance. Generally, copywriters don't have to prove their claims, just make clients believe them.

        Not to knock the field (I'm part of it), but just being real about it.

        Freelance copywriting is a field that's currently pretty "unstructured," subjective, and relationship-based. And it's attracting a whole lot of new "talent" that's making the value of copywriting even murkier.

        I wouldn't advise a kid to get into it, mainly because they can get into it at anytime, particularly after they've acquired specialized knowledge (and contacts) in a field with a higher barrier to entry.

        Use your youth to acquire chops in a clear-cut specialty -- something people are going to say "I can't do this myself, I better pay a pro and hope it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg." Eg., dentist, surgeon, mechanic, etc., etc...

        Not something where you're going to have a helluva time convincing your friend's kid that you can do it better than they can, so they should pay you for it...
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        • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
          Originally Posted by splitTest View Post


          And standards of proficiency? It's not like there's a test or certification.
          Yes it is .... Sales, Orders, Paying Customers.
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          • Profile picture of the author splitTest
            Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

            Yes it is .... Sales, Orders, Paying Customers.
            Actually, to backtrack a bit, there's really only one solid standard of proficiency -- being able to claim you wrote control after control for customers who test.

            Other than that, it's just people making claims, like the writer who claims to make clients millions many times over, yet still bids for work on elance.

            My point is that it's difficult for many customers to tell the gifted copywriter from the "shyster" faking it until he makes it. A lot of them can barely judge basic writing , let alone copywriting, and that's not a good atmosphere for beginners, talented or no.

            ...In other words, it's a pretty subjective, relationship-based field. Some people thrive on that. Others start with "one hand tied" in relationship-based fields. Ask james chartrand.

            I'd advise any youngster these days to invest their time, youth and energy in careers with more concrete standards and accreditation. That is, unless they're copywriting for the love of it, in which case I'd say go for it. (...But then I'd say that to someone who wants to be a poet, too.)
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      • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
        Originally Posted by BudaBrit View Post

        Really? Copywriting has a rather high barrier to entry, high standards of proficiency and obvious returns.

        I'd say it was one of the hardest things to get into, unless you're a freakish natural. Those are in pretty short supply, though.
        Yes, but it has the illusion of having a low barrier.

        The only thing more common than someone who thinks they're a copywriter cause they have 10 fingers, a lap top and a paypal account is the business owner who can't tell the difference between copywriting and someone typing out 500 words just to fill in some space on a website.

        On top of that, most new writers want to know where all the "high paying clients" are, as if there's some magic realm where they're all waiting to pay out large sums of money to anyone who can put together a sentence.

        The real barrier to entry has to be crossed by taking personal responsibility to write stuff that makes money, then you have to find clients who understand that there's difference and that the difference is worth paying for. In my opinion, the first step towards doing well in this game is acknowledging that invisible barrier, then going to work on developing the skill the bust through it.
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        • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
          Being a copywriter seems to have a low barrier of entry but a high barrier for longevity.
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          • Profile picture of the author splitTest
            Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

            Being a copywriter seems to have a low barrier of entry but a high barrier for longevity.
            There ya go.

            It might be interesting to bump some of those threads by noobs requesting advice as they embark on their freelance career. Like a "where are they now" thread.

            Maybe there should be a noob progress sticky, where they can post their daily goals and long-term goals and if they're meeting them. Something to be accountable to...

            But anyway, for your neighbor's kid: you might also want to advise her to test her knack on some of her own products. Sell your own products and you take the "people" factor (eg. old boy's network) out of the equation.

            Get that passive income going in the background, then build a client base.

            I'd still say get that engineering degree and become a technical writer instead though.
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            • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
              Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

              There ya go.
              Maybe there should be a noob progress sticky, where they can post their daily goals and long-term goals and if they're meeting them. Something to be accountable to...
              Good point, it would be interesting. Now most just snatch the advice and run off into the night. Some don't even punch the thank you button, let alone come back and report if the info was helpful (based on stats).
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              • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
                Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

                Good point, it would be interesting. Now most just snatch the advice and run off into the night. Some don't even punch the thank you button let alone come back and report if the info was helpful.
                Do you really find watching someone else's progress to be fascinating?

                I read a great article today about how it's not really news when someone remembers to bring healthy snacks five days in a row. The media (and a lot of public opinion) is more interested in the before and after than in the between.

                The between moves at a snail's pace. It's two steps forward and one back. For some, that'd be fascinating. For others, just as boring as the endless critiques for request and questions about the best copywriting books or how to get started.
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                • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
                  Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

                  Do you really find watching someone else's progress to be fascinating?
                  Absolutely! Don't you? Otherwise it's kinda like watching a movie without knowing the ending.

                  It's a part of human nature to some extent, especially if the subject, person or advice interests you.
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                  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
                    Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

                    Absolutely! Don't you? Otherwise it's kinda like watching a movie without knowing the ending.

                    It's a part of human nature to some extent, especially if the subject, person or advice interests you.
                    Even fascinating beginning and ending stories like the Biggest Loser cut out the not-so-entertaining parts.

                    I definitely don't need to see a laundry list of newb's daily endeavors. But a check in once in awhile with some sort of significant, measurable progress? Perhaps.
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            • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
              Originally Posted by splitTest View Post


              I'd still say get that engineering degree and become a technical writer instead though.
              I'm still gonna argue strenuously against this opinion. It may be what worked for you, but I'm very much against advising people to go to school in this climate of school profiteering/student indebtedness.

              Your point? Pay someone else to learn something.

              My point? Get paid to learn. Just be honest about where you're at when you're first starting out. You'll get nowhere if you position yourself as an expert and then get caught with your pants down.

              The overall point? There's no one right path. Some will do it with a formal education and some without. But make sure you actually DO IT.
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              • Profile picture of the author splitTest
                Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

                I'm still gonna argue strenuously against this opinion. It may be what worked for you, but I'm very much against advising people to go to school in this climate of school profiteering/student indebtedness.
                I'm with you about the school profiteering. It's shameful, especially in the age of online learning, e-textbooks, etc., when prices should be dropping and higher education should really be more accessible.

                ...But there's something to be said for structured learning and accreditation where it comes to stuff like technical writing.
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                • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
                  Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

                  ...But there's something to be said for structured learning and accreditation where it comes to stuff like technical writing.
                  Technical writing =/= copywriting.

                  Agreed that with a technical component, more specialized knowledge is required. Did I miss the portion where she's becoming a technical writer and not a copywriter? Because a copywriter really doesn't need a formal education to start writing and learning.
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                  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
                    Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

                    Did I miss the portion where she's becoming a technical writer and not a copywriter? Because a copywriter really doesn't need a formal education to start writing and learning.
                    Yeah you missed that part. And you're right, becoming a copywriter doesn't require a formal education at all.
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                  • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
                    Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

                    Technical writing =/= copywriting.
                    Did I miss the portion where she's becoming a technical writer and not a copywriter?
                    No. She's never mentioned wanting to be a technical writer. splitTest seems to want to push her toward that direction since this thread started.

                    But I can tell his heart is in the right place. She's reading this thread (at least I emailed the link to her), whatever she decides I'll support her.

                    But for now she's going with copywriter only. But who knows? You know how 22 year old's are, next month it could be a journalist. We'll see.
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  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    There are two basic categories of copywriters... those who write filler for search engines, and those who actually write important things actual human beings will read. One of these two is Fiverr work, typically cheap, and widely available. The other, people are willing to pay for.

    If you're marketing yourself based on your understanding of search engines and ability to drive traffic, you're putting yourself into the first group. If you're marketing yourself based on your ability to understand and describe complex products/scenarios, and your ability to engage and captivate an audience, you won't have any problem finding clients who need you. Sell your knowledge, not your time and number of keystrokes.
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    Ron Rule
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  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
    Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

    Because a copywriter really doesn't need a formal education to start writing and learning.
    ... Though I must say, someone with their heart set on copywriting might do better if they specialized in something like pharmaceutical copywriting or technical copywriting -- fields in which formal education definitely help.

    And the kid should go to college anyway. The fact that copywriting doesn't require formal education is all the more reason to go to school for some other specialization... something that could help your copywriting career or something that you can do in case writing isn't your bag...

    Settling for just a high school diploma is risky, no matter your career plan, imho. Way too many jobs want that piece of paper from the university before they'll even talk to you...
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    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

      Settling for just a high school diploma is risky, no matter your career plan, imho. Way too many jobs want that piece of paper from the university before they'll even talk to you...
      Meh. The school of hard knocks is getting a lot more (much deserved) credit these days.

      My pedigree got my foot in the door, but it has nothing to do with what I ultimately chose for a career. Can't say I'm super stoked to be footing the bill for such a prestigious university when I could have just gotten right to it (had I known what I wanted to do back then, that is).

      Believe it or not, I got rejected for a pro writing Master's degree from one of the schools.

      They don't always know what the **** they're talking about, these schools. If I'd let them tell me what I could and could not do, I'd be screwed for life.

      To boot, in copywriting you spend as much time unlearning bad school habits as you do picking up good writing habits. Better to get paid to learn, says me.

      But hey, each opinion works only when it works. Is it more difficult to get a job without a degree? Depends on the job. I know a dude that builds space shuttles for a living, and he's just a high school grad. He passed all the tests though, and continues to smoke competitors.

      TL;DR - there's no one RIGHT way to do anything. Do what feels right for you, whether it's additional schooling, or diving in head first.
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      • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
        Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

        Better to get paid to learn, says me.

        .
        Wow! She used those same exact words to convince her Dad.

        Is it that woman intuition thing happening here?
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        • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
          Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

          Wow! She used those same exact words to convince her Dad.

          Is it that woman intuition thing happening here?
          Heh. Less woman's intuition and more just being ******* smart.

          Wish I'd figured that out before I paid someone to "educate" me.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

      ...

      Way too many jobs want that piece of paper from the university before they'll even talk to you...
      Remember my friend, she's not looking for a job, she has one. She's looking to start a freelance copywriting business.
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    Gene Schwartz said part of being a good copywriter is knowing what is going on in the world, what real people are doing and saying. He said go to popular movies, read popular books, watch TV shows. Understand how your avatar lives. Your education is constant.

    Extended education can only help. Want to be a financial copywriter? Take courses in economics, investing, accounting. Same with health and nutraceuticals. Or tech.

    But also take courses in art, history, and philosophy. Now you can take some of the best courses from the top universities in the world for free. Here are some of them:

    Intro to Finance/ Univ of Michigan
    https://www.coursera.org/course/introfinance

    The Modern and the Postmodern/ Wesleyan University
    https://class.coursera.org/modernpostmodern-003

    Intro to Philosophy/ University of Edinburgh
    https://class.coursera.org/introphil-003

    The Modern World/ Univ of Virginia
    https://www.coursera.org/course/modernworld

    Wharton School Foundation Series/ Univ of Penn
    Coursera Blog • THE WHARTON FOUNDATION SERIES

    You don't have to get a college degree--liberal arts degrees get a bad rap for good reason (It's my POETRY homework, man!), but the idea of broadening your mind by learning some "soft" topics can only help your writing.

    If nothing else, you'll develop your eye and can become a leading art collector with all your copywriting riches.

    Like Gene. Heck, he gave a lot if it away.
    http://www.nytimes.com/1995/09/07/ob...ctor-dies.html
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    • Profile picture of the author Andrew Gould
      Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

      Like Gene. Heck, he gave a lot if it away.
      That article mentions him being on the cover of New York magazine:

      New York Magazine - Google Books
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      • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
        Originally Posted by Andrew Gould View Post

        That article mentions him being on the cover of New York magazine:

        New York Magazine - Google Books
        Nice, here is the booklet he wrote:

        Confessions of a poor collector;: How to build a...Confessions of a poor collector;: How to build a...

        OCCULTER - Confessions of a Poor Collector by Eugene M. Schwartz

        "Reprinting of a booklet written in 1970 by Eugene M. Schwartz (1927–1995); the original followed a lecture that he delivered at the New York Cultural Center. He proposes some easy instructions on how to build a whorthwhile art collection and just spend the least possible money for it.

        When Schwartz died in 1995, he was one of the most important collectors of post war US paintings at this time. His collection was donated to Museums like the MoMA and the Whitney in New York."
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    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

      Gene Schwartz said part of being a good copywriter is knowing what is going on in the world, what real people are doing and saying. He said go to popular movies, read popular books, watch TV shows. Understand how your avatar lives. Your education is constant.

      Extended education can only help. Want to be a financial copywriter? Take courses in economics, investing, accounting. Same with health and nutraceuticals. Or tech.

      But also take courses in art, history, and philosophy. Now you can take some of the best courses from the top universities in the world for free.
      Agreed. This is what I was getting at, if I didn't make it clear.

      Not that ZERO education is the route. Just that a formal degree doesn't necessarily hold as much weight as it once did.

      By all means, be a student of life. Just don't be a slave to student debt.

      Go be a copywriter and make that money, honey!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    The #1 chart-topping-awareness (with a bullet, BANG!) that a new copywriter needs to have is:

    Understanding positioning.

    When I look at how the majority of copywriters position themselves, I wonder what the hell they're doing.

    Here's what I mean...

    You get to CHOOSE how you enter a conversation.

    So you can CHOOSE to talk with people who don't understand the value of copy and try to educate them...

    Or...

    You can enter a conversation with people who have already successfully used copy to amass a small fortune.

    Never... ever try to convince someone of your value. It's a no-win situation 100% of the time.

    You create the conversation (positioning.) You CHOOSE where that conversation goes. And if you're not using that power, you deserve low-balling clients. Simple as that.

    Mark

    P.S. Remember, EVERYTHING you write and how you positioning yourself is a demonstration of what you can do for ME. If your positioning sucks, you're of no apparent value to ME. So how much do you think I'm gonna pay you?

    P.P.S. This isn't directed at anyone. Just ranting.
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    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

      P.P.S. This isn't directed at anyone. Just ranting.
      I have a cure for that - booze and a flamethrower.

      Flamethrowers - for when you just HAVE to set something on fire, but it's TOO FAR AWAY.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
        Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

        I have a cure for that - booze and a flamethrower.

        Flamethrowers - for when you just HAVE to set something on fire, but it's TOO FAR AWAY.
        Forunately, the coffee shop I'm working at right now has Bourbon. Check.

        Flamethrower? YES!

        I'll settle for a gasoline nozzle and a lighter.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

      Never... ever try to convince someone of your value. It's a no-win situation 100% of the time.
      .
      Mark;
      Is that a metaphor or do you mean that statement literally. If so, could you expand on that point or go a little deeper? This could be a learning moment for me. -Thanks.
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      • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
        Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

        Mark;
        Is that a metaphor or do you mean that statement literally. If so, could you expand on that point or go a little deeper? This could be a learning moment for me. -Thanks.
        The metaphor (I read somewhere I can't remember, and I love this) is: sell salad dressing to people who eat salad. Don't waste your time trying to convince people who don't eat salad to start.

        Your market is with the people who already believe and don't need to be sold. They're out there. You need to find them.

        The moment you start trying to convince people that AREN'T your market that you're of value to them, you've started spinning your wheels. They don't see the value. Their lack of insight could possibly alter your own self-worth.

        So the solution? Don't even bother with those guys.

        Why is copywriting so expensive? I could hire someone cheaper on Fiverr.

        Good. Best of luck to you, go do that.

        I don't understand why a simple website design costs me so much money. My nephew who just took one course on coding could do this for free.

        Why don't you let him do that, then? Best of luck.

        It's two parts - you understanding your own worth, and your potential customers understanding the value you bring to the table. From there it's only a matter of positioning yourself as the BEST value, as compared to others of your caliber who may also be vying for their business.

        But if they see none, better to run.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
        Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

        Mark;
        Is that a metaphor or do you mean that statement literally. If so, could you expand on that point or go a little deeper? This could be a learning moment for me. -Thanks.
        It's scarcity thinking.

        "I need to go after everyone... or I'm leaving money on the table."

        [RING RING]

        "Hi, my name is Rick James and I'm looking for some rock & roll content."

        You say...

        "Content? Oh, sorry... I'm a copywriter."

        "Yeah, yeah... that's it. I heard you can help me with my SEO."

        "Well, Rick... there is definitely a way to optimize copy for search engines, but I write for humans, not bots. So you'd need a separate content marketing strategy - on top of your copy."

        "Um, why would I do that?!?! Look, I just need you write me some killer articles that make people wanna buy. Can you do that? And how much do you charge by the word?"

        "Again Rick, I'm a copywriter... not an article or content writer. I charge by the project. I'm not sure an article is really what you need, but my rates start @ $300 per article or blog."

        "$300?!?! Are you crazy? You must be the best article writer in the world to ask for that kind of cash."

        "Rick, here's the thing... Everything I write is meant to help you convert... you know... generate profits that would have never existed - without my copy. I don't write to get you organic presence on Google. I write to convert."

        "Sure, sure, sure... that's what I need. But who in their right mind would pay $300 for an article?"

        "Lots of people Rick. That's cheap when you think about all the money it can produce. My copy is about having a conversation with your prospects they're already having with themselves. It's conversational writing."

        "[chuckles] Sure, sure... Um... I think I get it. You write those long ass, scammy-looking letters, right?"

        "Long copy isn't scammy. Long form sales letters - when they're done right - can produce a lot of money. And if that makes you uncomfortable, you can always do a VSL."

        "Hmmm... Oh, right... those videos that last forever, right?"

        "Sure. I wouldn't they last forever. When the copy resonates with your audience, it holds their attention all the way through."

        "HA! Sure it does. And how much do you charge for those?"

        "Depends Rick. I don't even know anything about your product or market yet."

        "Yeah, yeah... but what's the general cost?"

        "Well... it won't be any less than $5,000."

        "[Laughs out loud] Sorry man, we're talking two different languages. You're smoking crack if you think I'd ever pay you that kind of money to write me something. I can go on odesk and get really good articles for $0.5 a word. I just liked your website and thought I'd reach out."

        "Well, can I ask what your budget is? Maybe we can work something out."

        "All good man. I gotta get going."

        "Sure, Rick. Thanks for..."

        [click]

        "Oh, I guess he already hung up."

        Angie summed it up.

        There are plenty of people who want copy, know it's value and will invest accordingly.

        Talk to them. Position your copy in front of them.

        Because when you talk with people you need to educate, it's an uphill battle.

        And IF you get them, they think their $500 investment gives them carte blanche to your time.

        It's true. It's a lack mentality. The less people pay, the more they want.

        Whereas...

        When people know the value of copy, they know what they're getting and let you work.

        So...

        If you need the money, the last thing you should do is go after low-ballers. Because you'll always be stuck in the feast or famine epidemic. Always.

        You'll do the work... then go straight into fear and scarcity mode - prospecting like crazy to get your next client, so you can pay the phone bill.

        Doesn't make sense.

        Mark
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        • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
          Good analogy Mark of the "I need everyone or I'm leaving money on the table" statement.

          Oh, and again I thank everyone for their advice and comments on behalf of Kelly. She read the comments and advice.

          I've encouraged her to join the W.F, so she can ask her own questions in the future. I'm confident you'll give it to her straight with no chaser.
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  • Profile picture of the author DanTheWordsmith
    Writers in general don't get nearly enough credit as they should. Take screenwriters, for example. There more animals with stars on the Hollywood Walk of Fame than there are writers.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Originally Posted by DanTheWordsmith View Post

      Writers in general don't get nearly enough credit as they should. Take screenwriters, for example. There more animals with stars on the Hollywood Walk of Fame than there are writers.
      Whoa! You were right. I had to look.

      That would be an excellent Trivia or Jeopardy question.

      There are 3 animals and only 2 screenwriters who only did screenwriting. The Animals were of course Lassie, Rin Tin Tin, and Strong Heart.

      Even more shocking, there were 10 times more fictional characters (20) on the walk than screenwriters. Who woulda thought?

      The moral of the story: If you're a screenwriter and you want to be on the Walk of Fame you have to be at least a director, actor,or producer too.

      Just being a screenwriter alone won't get it. According to Hollywood that's nothing. I just wonder what a movie would be without one.
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      • Profile picture of the author BudaBrit
        Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

        Just being a screenwriter alone won't get it. According to Hollywood that's nothing. I just wonder what a movie would be without one.
        Probably Transformers.
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