Is Paypal cracking down on Internet Marketers?

61 replies
Hi all

I've just seen that Dan Brock has had to end his latest 'Deadbeat' launch (on JVZoo) because Paypal have frozen his account!

Now we've all heard horror stories of Paypal freezing accounts because of things like sudden bursts of income activity. But Dan claims he has had this account and being doing business on it for 15 years.

As usual with Paypal the account has been frozen for 6 months. They refuse to negotiate with him or listen to reason (according to him). Apparently he had two disputes because the buyers didn't get their download link and refund rate was 2%.

I, too, have had a Paypal account frozen because of two disputes (even though I responded to both of them).

It's worrying that Paypal are taking such a high handed attitude.

Dan says he is going to either move the product to Clickbank or use another merchant processor.

What do you all think? Should we be moving away from Paypal?
#cracking #internet #marketers #paypal
  • Profile picture of the author nmwf
    Originally Posted by JPaston View Post

    What do you all think? Should we be moving away from Paypal?
    It always best to provide multiple payment sources. Fortunately, there's a bunch of them!
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    • Profile picture of the author JPaston
      Sure, it's nice to have multiple payment processors, but so many people (especially buyers here) are used to paying quickly and easily by Paypal. Plus, of course, Paypal make it easy to dispute a payment which makes buyers feel more confident about placing the order.

      Maybe Clickbank is the better option after all? Or maybe it is about time JVZoo took on their own payment processing via Paypal in the same way?

      How about it?
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      • Profile picture of the author eblro01
        And JVZOO won't lift a finger to settle a dispute.
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        • Profile picture of the author James Campbell
          Originally Posted by eblro01 View Post

          And JVZOO won't lift a finger to settle a dispute.
          That isn't their job or business to do so.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ben West
    Cracking down on internet marketers? Why would they do that? IM'ers are just another source of income for them. More money in their pocket.

    Nothing has changed. PayPal has always been about the buyers first, sellers come last. And it works.

    Sadly though no system is perfect, and occasionally sellers get unfairly screwed. It's just a risk you have to take with PayPal.
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    • Profile picture of the author JPaston
      Originally Posted by Ben West View Post

      Cracking down on internet marketers? Why would they do that? IM'ers are just another source of income for them. More money in their pocket.
      So you would think. But that's not the way it seems to work. Why else would they suddenly close an account which has been a major "source of income for them" overnight without any explanation, any comeback, any form of redress? (Dan has said that they told him that he would have to subpoena them to take it further)!

      I think it is clear that they are not comfortable with the digital download community. Anyone overstepping the mark by even a fraction seems to be penalized.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        ???

        Sorry, but you give us a single instance of an account being frozen, and little explanation as to why and expect us to get anxious over it?

        Originally Posted by JPaston View Post

        So you would think. But that's not the way it seems to work. Why else would they suddenly close an account which has been a major "source of income for them" overnight without any explanation, any comeback, any form of redress? (Dan has said that they told him that he would have to subpoena them to take it further)!

        I think it is clear that they are not comfortable with the digital download community. Anyone overstepping the mark by even a fraction seems to be penalized.
        Maybe it's just me, but I don't know who Dan Brock is. Regardless, I doubt that he has been a "major source of income" for Paypal.

        Even if Dan Brock is a really big name and I've just been living under a rock... big name marketers aren't necessarily any better (or as good) businessmen than many of the smaller fish.

        For example, Frank Kern got into trouble w/ the FTC a decade or so ago, and Mike Filsaime had major issues w/ the IRS just a couple of years ago. What should make Dan Brock immune from his payment processor?

        Account freezes are not new. They have been going on for as long as there have been merchant accounts, let alone Paypal. I'm sure it's embarrassing for Dan Brock, but dollars to donuts his nose isn't as clean as he'd have you believe.
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        • Profile picture of the author JPaston
          Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

          ???

          Sorry, but you give us a single instance of an account being frozen, and little explanation as to why and expect us to get anxious over it?
          Hi Sid

          No, I don't expect you to get "anxious" over it. I just wanted to open this up as a discussion and get people's ideas/experiences.

          In particular I'm looking to see whether there is a trend OR whether these are just isolated instances.

          And it wasn't a single instance - as I pointed out it has happened to me too. Luckily it wasn't an account with much in it (unlike Dan's) but these occurrences make ME anxious now, as I've already been on the receiving end.
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        • Profile picture of the author Joan Altz
          Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

          Account freezes are not new. They have been going on for as long as there have been merchant accounts, let alone Paypal. I'm sure it's embarrassing for Dan Brock, but dollars to donuts his nose isn't as clean as he'd have you believe.
          I agree with Sid. A lot of people who get accounts frozen have some prior, unaddressed issues or skeletons in the closet that PayPal finally uncovered. I've seen sellers with much higher refund rates and disputes filed against them who PayPal never seems to notice (like Precious Ngwu, for example).

          Exceptions to everything, of course. We've had members on the WF get their accounts frozen for being a high risk according to PayPal, and a few ended up getting their accounts restored after contacting a higher-up. Others lost the accounts for good.

          Edited to add: But I do remember thinking, 'Oh, S***', after I found out PayPal and Ebay are going to be separate companies again. Typically a change like that means a "house cleaning" is forthcoming.

          But with the growing popularity of Stripe, PayPal better be careful.
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        • Profile picture of the author daftdog
          Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

          ???

          Sorry, but you give us a single instance of an account being frozen, and little explanation as to why and expect us to get anxious over it?



          Maybe it's just me, but I don't know who Dan Brock is. Regardless, I doubt that he has been a "major source of income" for Paypal.

          Even if Dan Brock is a really big name and I've just been living under a rock... big name marketers aren't necessarily any better (or as good) businessmen than many of the smaller fish.

          For example, Frank Kern got into trouble w/ the FTC a decade or so ago, and Mike Filsaime had major issues w/ the IRS just a couple of years ago. What should make Dan Brock immune from his payment processor?

          Account freezes are not new. They have been going on for as long as there have been merchant accounts, let alone Paypal. I'm sure it's embarrassing for Dan Brock, but dollars to donuts his nose isn't as clean as he'd have you believe.


          I dont know you Sid nor have we ever spoken but I rarely see a post you make that doesn't sway my opinion on which ever matter is at hand....

          Great to still have guys like you sharing their knowledge here!

          Respect,

          Marc
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  • Profile picture of the author Ben West
    An isolated incident does not make a pattern. (I understand this isn't the only time it has happened, and happens plenty often enough, but it has always been the case and certainly is not unique to Internet Marketers. Nothing new).

    I think they have always been uncomfortable with the digital download community. Wouldn't you in their shoes? How would you achieve balance between keeping both the buyers and the sellers happy? The scammers and con artists are rife on both sides of the fence, and to hire enough people to investigate each claim they would go bankrupt!
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  • Profile picture of the author nmwf
    I think you're over-reacting. Paypal has a bad habit of doing this to anyone - not just those in the Internet Market. They have a bad habit of blocking access to entire counties without notice too. That's why I said it's best to provide multiple payment methods. Assuming the function of a world-wide bank isn't a feasible option for anyone other than a world-wide bank.
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author nmwf
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        Actually, PayPal doesn't block access to countries on their own - like any international business, they're governed by the laws of the countries where they're based as well as the laws of the countries they serve. They also have to comply with the major credit card companies rules.
        Don't want to lead the thread down a rabbit hole, but I remember Paypal blocking access to India in the past: https://www.google.com/search?q=paypal+block+indians. Then there's this list of countries:

        Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Cote D'Ivoire (Ivory Coast), Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea), Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Ghana, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Liberia, Libya, Monaco, Moldova, Montenegro, Myanmar, Pakistan, Paraguay, Saint Lucia, South Sudan, Suda...

        What Country Doesn't Work With PayPal? | Chron.com
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
          The question though is why. Is it because PayPal is an evil corporation that is out to hurt people and ruin their livelihoods and hopes everyone starves because they can't sell through PayPal? Or is it because of local laws and other criteria. The first answer is what we normally hear.

          In the case of Taiwan, for example, they recently made it where people can't receive funds. That's because of the government's decision that appointed one bank to receive funds. If you want funds received through PP, you have to open a bank account at that bank. That is the only way. Nothing that PP did, that we know of, but a tightening of banking/money regulations by the government.

          Bottom line: There are always, in every situation, without fail, 2 sides to every story. Most of the time, though, we only hear one side. And in 99% of all those cases, the person sharing their story here proclaims their innocence and ignorance of any wrong doing on their part.

          Mark

          Originally Posted by nmwf View Post

          Don't want to lead the thread down a rabbit hole, but I remember Paypal blocking access to India in the past: https://www.google.com/search?q=paypal+block+indians. Then there's this list of countries:

          Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Cote D'Ivoire (Ivory Coast), Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea), Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Ghana, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Liberia, Libya, Monaco, Moldova, Montenegro, Myanmar, Pakistan, Paraguay, Saint Lucia, South Sudan, Suda...

          What Country Doesn't Work With PayPal? | Chron.com
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          • Profile picture of the author agmccall
            Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post


            Bottom line: There are always, in every situation, without fail, 2 sides to every story. Most of the time, though, we only hear one side. And in 99% of all those cases, the person sharing their story here proclaims their innocence and ignorance of any wrong doing on their part.

            Mark
            I agree. We see the same with Amazon accounts getting closed as well as Adsense accounts. And the more questions that are asked of the person whose account was closed, the more we learn that they violated the TOS because they either did not read them, or thought they could skirt the system.

            One of the biggest mistakes and reasons that paypal will freeze accounts is that people will conduct business on there personal account instead of upgrading. Upgrading takes about 2 minutes

            al
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      • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        As to this Dan Brock's issue - there's more to the story than what he may be telling others... there always is.
        I agree with this statement 100%.

        As to the disputes, I do remember about 6 years ago when I first started building my list and selling digital products I had a problem with the script I was using and it did not deliver the download links properly. This resulted in 2 disputes occurring on the same day when I had only made 4 sales. PayPal did send me an email and let me know that my dispute ratio was extremely high, and that I needed to try and keep it below 2%. I called them up and let them know what had happened involving the script, and they thanked me for my call and I never heard anything else about it.

        I don't think this is the case with Dan Brock, though, because I'm sure when he launched he started making lots of sales and a dispute or even two probably wouldn't have raised any red flags. I'm pretty sure that his account must have set off an alarm somewhere and was probably being closely watched. As someone else mentioned, if he is plastering all over the sales page that you can make 11K per month for just a small investment, it's probable that PayPal classified his product as a "get rich quick" scheme and pulled the plug.
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      • Profile picture of the author ninetymillion
        Thank you, awesome response
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    • Profile picture of the author officep
      Originally Posted by nmwf View Post

      Paypal has a bad habit of doing this to anyone - not just those in the Internet Market. They have a bad habit of blocking access to entire counties without notice too.

      Business operating honestly and succesfully for 15 years without any problem.

      Step 1. 2-3 malicious refund requests made by competitors.

      Result: All income blocked and frozen for 6 months (180 days)
      because Paypal is getting a lot of interest on all those billions that they hold
      in frozen funds, from millions of frozen paypal accounts
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  • Profile picture of the author JPaston
    Fair enough, Joan, but it seems like there is no rhyme or reason to what Paypal does.

    My account that was shut down was only used for a membership site that had been running for 15 years without problems.

    I had two disputes and that was it - end of line. No skeletons in the cupboard there, I assure you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joan Altz
      Originally Posted by JPaston View Post

      Fair enough, Joan, but it seems like there is no rhyme or reason to what Paypal does.

      My account that was shut down was only used for a membership site that had been running for 15 years without problems.

      I had two disputes and that was it - end of line. No skeletons in the cupboard there, I assure you.
      How long ago was it that PP shut down your account, JPaston? I edited my reply above at the same time you were also replying, that the change recently with PayPal and Ebay may have something to do with it, and yeah it could be a crack down - can't rule that out.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        Originally Posted by Joan Altz View Post

        How long ago was it that PP shut down your account, JPaston?
        I'm curious about that, as well. Unless it was very recent (and I didn't get the impression that it was) then those 2 instances hardly represent a trend, and certainly not a "crack down").

        About 5 years ago, my own account was frozen for about 3 hours because of a single line that I had changed in my sales page. I immediately changed it back, contacted Paypal and the account was unfrozen before I got off the phone.

        I edited my reply above at the same time you were also replying, that the change recently with PayPal and Ebay may have something to do with it, and yeah it could be a crack down - can't rule that out.
        I doubt the spin off of Paypal has anything to do with Dan Brock's Paypal account being frozen. Again, a single instance could be for any of a number of reasons. Trying to create a relationship between something as big as the spin-off of Paypal, and something as trivial as someone's account being frozen - is ludicrous.

        The sky is NOT falling. (you heard it here first)

        If Dan was getting an abnormal level of payment activity in his account, it would be natural for Paypal to check the source of the transactions. The wrong words on a salespage and/or missing necessary disclaimers could be all it takes for someone at Paypal to get a little uncomfortable and pull the plug.
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  • Profile picture of the author JPaston
    Hi Sid and Joan

    It was about 2 years ago.

    Thanks for the in-depth suggestions, Sid, and you've certainly pointed towards something. Naturally any big product launch is going to bring in an abnormal level of payment activity. Clearly something made someone at Paypal uncomfortable.
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  • Profile picture of the author deekay
    Things are going to be more tough as Paypal bringing intangible products under their jurisdiction. Now people can file dispute for intangible products and claim refund. Any thoughts?
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  • Profile picture of the author Ayawa
    Is Paypal cracking down on Internet Marketers?

    Do Paypal have a future without internet marketers?
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by Ayawa View Post

      Is Paypal cracking down on Internet Marketers?

      Do Paypal have a future without internet marketers?
      If you're referring to the internet marketers you typically see here in this forum, oh, yes - PayPal is just fine without them. These are just a drop of water in the ocean to PayPal. The vast majority of those you see in this small sub-section of internet marketing are making very little overall.
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  • Profile picture of the author ED1190
    Something like this concerns me when I'm trying to get into affiliate marketing and perhaps even releasing my own product in the future.

    Has anyone used Stripe? Seems to be a good alternative.
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  • Profile picture of the author JPaston
    ED1190 I wouldn't worry about Paypal when you're getting into affiliate marketing, or when you start product creation down the line.

    My experience on my marketing business account is that, providing I follow the rules, which are sensible things like don't make extravagant claims and do provide links to the requisite legal pages, you won't have troubles with Paypal.

    However, if you don't follow the rules exactly, deal with disputes and refund requests promptly, then you might have your account frozen.

    What concerns me is that a sudden burst in activity, as happened to Dan, causes an account manager at Paypal to take a look and shut down first without even advising Dan what the problem was. They seem to assume that you are guilty until proven innocent, which isn't right in my book. And, whatever his heinous crime was in Paypal's eyes, he hasn't been given the chance to find out and put it right.

    There's been plenty of advice on this forum in the past that, if you are launching a product and expect a sudden inflow of cash, speak to Paypal first. Seems like it's very good advice indeed.
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  • Profile picture of the author zdebx
    I don't know any serious established business that uses Paypal as a payment processor, except obviously top-rated sellers on eBay, because they have no choice...

    I thought it was pretty clear for anyone that for big volumes of digital products, Paypal is not good enough, because of all the fraud that goes through their system, so they are very sceptical when it comes to purely online products.

    Clickbank is probably the best option for all your digital products/services needs.
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    • Profile picture of the author agmccall
      Originally Posted by zdebx View Post

      I don't know any serious established business that uses Paypal as a payment processor, except obviously top-rated sellers on eBay, because they have no choice...
      This has nothing to do with paypal's system and everything to do with fees. Most large established businesses can get merchant accounts with their own banks for a much less fee percentage per transaction.

      But, you will also note that almost all will accept paypal as a form of payment.

      al
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    I strongly suggest that WF move to another payment processor. Basically, pay pal is a horror movie. What we need is a serious company. I use to have some limited leverage because I am a big time seller on e-bay, but that will soon be gone. Sadly, I remember a better time, back before e-bay bought pay pal and thinngs were a lot better for me. I have been a seller since the 90's even.

    People need to wake up. It keeps on getting worse every year. What we need is a congressional investigation into pay pal practices and heavy fines so they don't do it again.
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author eblro01
        I agree. PayPal has always protected the buyer.And with some of the scammers out there, we need the protection.
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        • Profile picture of the author shaunybb
          I think that paypal is been too heavy handed in my opinion, the example above where the guy has been using the service for 15 years or whatever is a kick in the behind and very disrespectful. He has probably earned paypal a lot of money and this is what he gets. That sucks!
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          • Profile picture of the author JC Web
            Originally Posted by shaunybb View Post

            I think that paypal is been too heavy handed in my opinion, the example above where the guy has been using the service for 15 years or whatever is a kick in the behind and very disrespectful. He has probably earned paypal a lot of money and this is what he gets. That sucks!
            You have a funny definition of disrespectful. He directly and openly violated Paypal's terms, which he knew full well he was doing, and you call Paypal disrepectful? They were absolutely right to freeze his account. His behavior is what "sucks."

            People need to start taking responsibility for themselves and their own actions. Internet Marketers in particular need to stop trying to get away with unethical and/or illegal behaivor. And if you're going to pull some garbage like that, don't whine and blame everyone and everything else when you finally have to face some consequences.
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  • Profile picture of the author JPaston
    I fear we are drifting off the subject a little with this discussion of why Paypal excludes certain countries (Monaco - really?), interesting though the discussion is.

    My purpose in opening this thread was to get other marketer's views, and a cross section of those is beginning to appear.

    The title of the thread was supposed to point out that Paypal does not suffer some of the things that the Internet Marketing community gets up to gladly. In the main these are:

    1. Making outrageous or unsubstantiated claims (particularly of income potential)
    2. Not having the correct links to legal pages (Disclaimer etc)
    3. Not settling disputes and/or refunds promptly
    4. Poorly executed, obscure or non-prompt delivery of digital goods (meaning download links)
    5. Sudden and unexpected surges in income (serving to raise notice of investigation of an account)

    These are all aspects of doing business that Internet Marketers should normally take care of. But this isn't always the case.

    Unfortunately the first you will know about it is when Paypal freezes your account. I've known this happen to one regular marketer of my acquaintance who had made the mistake of opening up his W+ affiliate account to automatic approval. He was swamped with so many refund requests overnight that his Paypal account was shut down before he could attend to the problem.

    Compare that to Clickbank who vet your site BEFORE it is allowed to go live and advise you how to improve it if your vendor request is rejected. I think that makes it a safer option for many marketers of niche products who need some guidance as to following all the rules.

    Similarly this very own forum has rules which must be followed if your WSO is to go live. And these should help you to avoid worrying about your Paypal account (though, as the above story shows, you should choose your affiliates carefully).

    So, follow the rules and you won't get frozen. But those marketers who overstep the mark will suffer the Paypal crackdown.
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  • Profile picture of the author Javisito
    As usual one of the biggest problems with accounts getting shut down is because many people fail to follow the TOS simply because they are to lazy to read them

    It happened to me with my adwords account when I was new.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    My question is... why allow anything to get to the "dispute" stage? Paypal gives you the option of settling with the buyer before it escalates the claim.

    Why not simply refund anyone that has an issue?

    Really, am I missing something here?

    If you refund right away then you won't have any outstanding disputes... specially ones that might go against your favor, right?

    Just curious.
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    • Profile picture of the author James Campbell
      Originally Posted by Listhoven View Post

      My question is... why allow anything to get to the "dispute" stage? Paypal gives you the option of settling with the buyer before it escalates the claim.

      Why not simply refund anyone that has an issue?

      Really, am I missing something here?

      If you refund right away then you won't have any outstanding disputes... specially ones that might go against your favor, right?

      Just curious.
      Mainly because vendors don't like getting scammed by some people who file disputes for almost everything they purchase via paypal.

      Paypal does eventually catch up with these people, but until then the vendor is stuck dealing with BS disputes from scammers.

      Of course, legitimate disputes do exist, but there are some that use it as a means of getting "free" product. Which ruins the whole thing for everyone.
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  • Freezing accounts has been going on for more then 10 years if you get a surge of money you stand a chance of getting it frozen I had like 90K 8 or 9 years ago frozen took 6 months to get it released they held it I guess to make sure I was legit over the years my refund rate was low and chargebacks extremely low hadn't been frozen since but that is just something they do if you get a surge even if you warn them they might have some algorithm that triggers it.
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  • Profile picture of the author yakim1
    PayPal is trying to go Public and are trying to clean up their image. PayPal did their first ever webinar on July 21st.

    PayPal is planning to do another webinar in August.

    In the first webinar they did take questions from the attendees. Some of the questions were about account limitations and things you can do to prevent them.

    There is a replay of the first webinar available but I'm not allowed to post the link. I did before the webinar and the post was removed by a mediator.

    So If you are interested in hearing what PayPal had to say or will say in up coming webinars, you will have to pm me.

    I hope this is helpful,
    Steve Yakim
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  • Profile picture of the author Freebiequeen1999
    Paypal changed their rules recently - as of June they cover "digital" purchases for refunds.

    Before it was just phusical purchases.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Originally Posted by Freebiequeen1999 View Post

      Paypal changed their rules recently - as of June they cover "digital" purchases for refunds.

      Before it was just phusical purchases.
      Which really has nothing to do with the OP.

      Granted it's early yet, but FWIW, I personally have seen no change in the level of disputes, nor refund requests made directly to my help desk since the changes for digital purchases went into effect.
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  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
    Paypal can be rather arbitrary in their decisions and from my conversations with them in the past, it seems that what rattles them the most is a sudden influx of money coming into an account -- they're typically worried that you're going to withdraw everything and leave them holding the bag if there are chargebacks or disputes, and this type of activity is usually marked as "irregular" activity -- this determination is not done by a person, but arbitrarily by their fraud and account monitoring software, and I believe it has the ability to freeze accounts without any human intervention.

    The most we can do is ensure we are as compliant as possible, and also let Paypal know if you're expecting a sudden influx of payments to enter your account. (Such as when you're about to launch a product, for example.)
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  • Profile picture of the author ninetymillion
    I was interested in ordering the program and found this post through searching. I then called Paypal. I had to find out if they could shed some light. Their CS indicated to me a shut down can occur when there is a large number of refund requests not granted and they have to work on a certain volume of merchant disputes from the buyers issuing bank or credit card company. When a seller creates a situation where they do not create an ease in the buying process, the account can get flagged. In short it means if you are not good at dealing with your own disputes and they have to handle it, you will be flagged.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tech Pyjama
    Paypal's policies are great, if you comply by them strcitly. I've used paypal for over 8+ years now and never had a problem besides the occasional freeloader. Just keep your policies and terms tight and abide by them.
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  • Profile picture of the author brettb
    I got banned a year ago. That was because they perceived my site as having an adult theme, even though my richer competitors still accept PayPal to this day.

    The biggest problem has been not having a PayPal account for receiving affiliate payments. The benefit is that I know longer waste my money buying fake goods and junk on eBay.
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  • Profile picture of the author officep
    there are indeed millions of horror stories written by paypal customers

    if some company creates a paypal competitor, the best day of this era
    will be to see paypal finally getting shut down, after all the suffering and pains
    that paypal gave to all their customers
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  • Profile picture of the author kencalhn
    i love paypal, used them for nearly 10 years, I have zero complaints; they work great
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    • Profile picture of the author Devilfish168
      Hey guys anyone of you also happen to encounter recently paypal ask for proof of you ID and address?


      I log in and discover must produce proof of my id and address to them.

      whereas long time ago I think already proof..even my pay pal is a verify account link to my local bank
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  • Profile picture of the author etvconnect
    Never use Paypal to accept payments. They can shut down you merchant account for any reason and they sometimes share your personal information with third parties like certain government agencies (just read their privacy policy)...trust me I know what I'm talking about!
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  • Profile picture of the author arojilla
    PayPal sucks because of all the power it has. On the other hand, it's this power what makes it useful. I have never had a problem with them personally, but it's scary how powerful they are.
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    • Profile picture of the author AmberJB
      Originally Posted by arojilla View Post

      PayPal sucks because of all the power it has. On the other hand, it's this power what makes it useful. I have never had a problem with them personally, but it's scary how powerful they are.
      If it's scary, use multiple providers. We all have to deal with powerful entities - I bank with Wells Fargo, they are big and powerful, and I have to follow their rules. But I am okay with that.

      I've used Paypal for many years, and never had a problem. They are trying to make money just like all of us, and have to protect themselves.

      And, WE are trying to make money, and have to protect ourselves. So don't put all your eggs in one basket.
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      • Profile picture of the author arojilla
        Originally Posted by AmberJB View Post

        If it's scary, use multiple providers. We all have to deal with powerful entities - I bank with Wells Fargo, they are big and powerful, and I have to follow their rules. But I am okay with that.

        I've used Paypal for many years, and never had a problem. They are trying to make money just like all of us, and have to protect themselves.

        And, WE are trying to make money, and have to protect ourselves. So don't put all your eggs in one basket.
        I said I personally have never had problems with them.
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  • Profile picture of the author yougpeter
    I think the biggest problem with paypal is that they don't have any honorable competitor.They think that they can do anything what in mind.For example if you want to have your account year limit higher you need to send them some kind of proof that you are what you are.But you ca't send they 2 times for example drivers licence or pasport.Every time you have to send something uniuqe.This for me is very confusing and problematic.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cosmit
    Originally Posted by JPaston View Post

    Hi all

    I've just seen that Dan Brock has had to end his latest 'Deadbeat' launch (on JVZoo) because Paypal have frozen his account!

    Now we've all heard horror stories of Paypal freezing accounts because of things like sudden bursts of income activity. But Dan claims he has had this account and being doing business on it for 15 years.

    As usual with Paypal the account has been frozen for 6 months. They refuse to negotiate with him or listen to reason (according to him). Apparently he had two disputes because the buyers didn't get their download link and refund rate was 2%.

    I, too, have had a Paypal account frozen because of two disputes (even though I responded to both of them).

    It's worrying that Paypal are taking such a high handed attitude.

    Dan says he is going to either move the product to Clickbank or use another merchant processor.

    What do you all think? Should we be moving away from Paypal?
    paypal is a monopoly and they dont care. personally, i would say stay away from paypal, any company that doesnt care about their customers needs to lose them
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by JPaston View Post

      Fair enough, Joan, but it seems like there is no rhyme or reason to what Paypal does.

      My account that was shut down was only used for a membership site that had been running for 15 years without problems.

      I had two disputes and that was it - end of line. No skeletons in the cupboard there, I assure you.
      Running for 15 years without problems, and then getting two quick disputes likely landed you on their radar. No need for there to be skeletons in the closet, just a disruption in the established pattern.

      It's the same for sudden influxes of sales. In addition to worries about getting stuck with refunds, you also have official worries about money laundering and other nefarious purposes.

      As for the disrespect this Brock guy got, all I can guess is that for Paypal to get that brusque ("get a subpoena"), he likely gave them plenty of disrespect to react to. In the handful of times I've spoken to anyone at PP, they haven't always given me the answers I wanted, but they have always been polite about it.

      And to the poster who claimed IMers were a major source of income, think about it. Suppose you do a million dollar launch in one day. At ~3%, that's $30K for PP. For a company processing a third of a trillion (with a 'T') per year, that isn't enough to get out of bed for.
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnnyFanta
    I buy a lot of stuff on JVzoo and what annoys me is when a product isn't as described and then you're into a merry go round with the seller because the product isn't working or they have stripped every benefit and you can only access them with the more expensive upsell.

    Last time this happened and to be honest it is rare, it took 15 email's and I only got the refund when I asked them would it be easier for me to go to the resolution center in PayPal to sort this out. I was refunded in 1 hour.

    So from a buyers perspective Paypal are protecting the buyers from rogue sellers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      This is a key point, and we as sellers tend to ignore it...


      Originally Posted by JohnnyFanta View Post

      So from a buyers perspective Paypal are protecting the buyers from rogue sellers.
      Most of you are way too young to remember when credit cards first came on the scene (no Virginia, they haven't been around forever).

      Merchants accepted cash or checks ONLY - and often would NOT accept personal checks.

      Consumers, of course, loved the idea of "credit on demand", but it took a little while for merchants to realize that if they accepted credit cards, and their competitors did not... they had a selling advantage. So much so, that they even agreed to accept some of the risk for some of the inevitable loss from those who defaulted when it came time to pay up. (They accepted the concept of merchant fees)

      It was a real balancing act to find the right level of merchant fees and credit rates to make both merchant and consumer happy - and still be able to turn a profit.

      One of the concessions that merchants (besides paying a fee for each dollar of credit extended) accepted was to agree on the credit card company as final arbiter in any credit dispute on the buyer's behalf.

      By turning that concession into basically an across the board, satisfaction guarantee for the consumer, the credit card has been able to become ubiquitous and began replacing cash as the preferred method of payment for goods.

      ANYONE who intends to sell in almost any market (especially an online one), in any appreciable volume must inevitably accept credit.

      Many large retailers have issued their own credit card (store cards) to mitigate the amount of merchant fees required by the major credit card companies, but because they are only good in that store... those retailers still find it necessary to accept major credit cards - and the terms that those credit cards impose for a merchant account.

      Because of the need to mitigate risk associated with any non-cash financial transaction, ALL other payment processors (including Paypal) are forced to offer similar terms, or simply pack their bags and go home.

      We have to remember that Paypal IS NOT your own personal piggy bank. Neither are we (as sellers) their customer... they are our agent.
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      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Thanks for reminding me how old I am, Sid

        How many remember the AOL/Compuserve or even Bulletin Board days, when you could sort of sell online, but you had to collect offline? I remember having customers who had to wait until a check cleared before their product was delivered, and for many digital products, that meant until a set of disks could be shipped. There were tiny limits on transmitting files by email, and no such thing as secure download sites. Even if there were, most people were on dial-up at 1200 baud or slower.

        On a big file, like an image, it was almost even money which would take longer - the snail mail or the download. And AOL, etc., charged for access by the hour on top of long distance charges by the minute.
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  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    Recording of PayPal banning an IM seller:
    https://soundcloud.com/user39526148/...e-money-online
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    PayPal has always cracked down on shady and sloppy Internet marketers and they should. Yes there are some cases that come up where they were incorrect. That is to be expected from any large corporation. Even the best accountants, customer service reps etc. make mistakes. They do try to limit those mistakes and they also try to correct them.

    I have used PP since it first started and consider them one of my most important tools in my toolbox.
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