Please Stop Doing This

Use an autoresponder that doesn't require confirmation of opt-ins. Then you can automatically remove a name from your prospect list and add it to your customer list.

Just update the list with a flag to state whether they bought or not.

Thanks for pointing this out LMC. Another reason to have them sign up on a different list (second optin in) Customer follow up - feedback.

That does make a lot of sense. I am only in the early days of monetising my websites so will take that as advice when I set it up

Hilarious!!!

OMG!! Classic! Hilarious. Great analogy.

Really? You don't see anything unethical about requiring a confirmed opt in before giving a paying customer what he's just ordered, when you didn't make this a condition of the sale on your sales page? Frankly, that surprises me and disappoints me about you, Mike.

But it's not being shipped. If it was, I'd EXPECT to have to put in my details. In fact, I'd be worried if they did NOT ask for those details during the order process. Getting an instant download absolutely does negate the need for such info. Forcing opt-ins as a condition of the sale is completely unnecessary. Requiring shipping details for a physcial product is obviously completely necessary.

Your point here is ridiculous. Sorry, but it is.

Again, your sense of right and wrong is screwy here. I was not informed prior to payment that an additional condition of the sale (an additional payment, as it were) was going to be required before I could access the product. I paid for it. Get it? I was not given access to it until I not only opted in, but confirmed that opt-in. The vendor lied. Do you see that?

It was a lie of omission, plain and simple. Put that on the sales page and let me decide before I pay you. As it was, I bought the product under false pretenses. If you cannot see this basic fact, well I think that's sad.

Wow. So as long as the product is satisfactory, then it doesn't matter to you what happens in the actual sales process? Man, I gotta tell you, Mike... I won't be buying anything from you. I'm sure you can live without my purchases, but this was very eye opening for me. I'm kinda bummed out, actually.

John

I'm right there with you two (and maybe more...), in that I don't really think it's all that smart, especially in this day with all of the spam floating around.

Now, I own my own domain and site (as I'm sure so many of you do) and this is the type of thing that gets me to create a new e-mail address (or at very least forwarder) and use that address for these 'opt in' things in order to get product. Then once the confirmation is done, BAM there goes that e-mail address or forwarder. That's why I don't think it's really all that smart, as I'm sure I cannot be the only one that does that. Then again, I haven't read this whole thread (yet) so maybe quite a few others have said and done the same (in that case apologies to everyone for posting what others have said).

Mike

... that he had to unzip a file ?


Harvey

I don't think it's a question of being bent out of shape, it's only that these threads can sometimes inflate a simple honest vent into a major moan - such is the nature of the forum beast!

But I'm sorry Jason, I have to say I'm with the o.p.
I hope you will still consider selling things to me!

I just think it's really annoying when the choice is not offered. If it's going to create less hassle, better service, and no repeat pitches, then why force it, why not just tell us that?? Why not take the opportunity of deepening the customer relationship by explaining, in a couple of sentences, why it would be a great idea to opt in here, "so that you can join our exclusive notification list" (or whatever). If they really don't get it, you can have a "no thanks just take me to my product" link, but wouldn't you agree that those who do get it will feel good about opting in and are likely to be higher quality subscribers?

Related to this, I also find the following really annoying: I clink on a link within an email sent by someone whose list I am already on, purely seeking the info they have invited me to seek, and then forced to opt-in to their list again before I can get to wherever the link is going!?!
I am not talking about being sent to another marketer's squeeze page, I am referring to those times when it is clearly the same marketer.

Now, before anyone goes ballistic on my bottom, yes i personally KNOW why some marketers like to channel people into separate lists for specific purposes, but as a Subscriber I don't know that, it's usually not clear. And if they don't bother to give any explanation, then for all I know I'm just getting caught in some stupid loop because the marketer doesn't know what they are doing and I end up getting all their emails in triplicate. Which HAS happened, bending me out of shape on several occasions !

We're a society that loves to be kept INFORMED, like when the dentist says, OK I am just going to insert something excruciating into your gum, but in just ten short minutes you won't feel a thing! LOL

Just my 3 cents worth.

Ken

I am with you. I like to unsubscribe after I sign up. Oh shoot which reminds me... FreeCreditReport.com is going to zap me again if I don't cancel . OK, got to run. Thanks for the feedback though.

Cheers!

Okay, there are actually several issues here so this problem isn't really a
cut and dried one. I can see both sides of the coin.

I have a product that is delivered over a 12 month period because there is
so much in it. It's not a membership in the traditional sense, as it's a one
time purchase, but it is handled sort of like a drip feed membership site.

Therefore, in order for the customer to get each month's material, they
do have to opt in as the links are sent via Aweber. To send to each
person one at a time would not only be a nightmare, but would technically
be spam. So I have to handle it this way.

However, I do NOT force opt in. I make it clear that to get each month
they have to sign up to be notified. If they choose not to, then they
obviously don't care that much about the product. So far, I have had a
100% opt in rate making it optional, though not really. In other words,
they do get the first month's download right away, but if they want to
get the remaining, they must opt in. So far, no complaints in 3 years.

Getting back to the complaint of the OP.

On the one hand, I too do not like being blindsided. Having said that, if I
am, I'll still opt in. If I bought the product, there was a reason for it. I
don't buy things just for the heck of it. So I'm not going to let my
displeasure of having to opt in WITHOUT being told first and WITHOUT
being given the product first make me cut off my nose to spite my face.
It just doesn't make sense.

On the other hand, depending on what the purpose of the opt in is, that
will determine whether or not I purchase anything else from this person
again.

If it's just to send me sales pitch after sales pitch and provide me with
absolutely NO value whatsoever...not even support for the damn product
I bought in the first place...I'll never purchase from the person again
because it was obvious that the only reason for the opt in was to get me
to buy more things. I am actually on one such list that I will be getting off
of very soon.

However, if I'm told that this entitles me to support or free updates or
weekly tips on how to get the most out of the product, I'd be a damn
fool to opt out...even if I was blindsided.

It all comes down to WIIFM?

If the opt in gives me value, fine. Yeah, I would have preferred you were
up front about it. But I'm not going to bitch if those tips, free updates
and support actually add to my bottom line. If anything, I'll probably email
you and thank you for your great support.

However, if the opt in gives me nothing, then all you've done is made
yourself look as if all you cared about was getting my email in order to
sell me more products.

And for those who brought up about the buyers and freebies list, yes, I
too move people from one to the other when they purchase my one
product. So far, I have a 100% opt in rate doing it MY way.

And that is what I am going to leave product creators with.

There really is NO reason to force an opt in before download IF you are
offering something of value for that opt in.

And how hard is that REALLY to do?

If it is...then maybe you shouldn't be selling products at all.

Just my opinion.

I implemented this strategy of the opt in before the download page because I believe that the "money is in the list" and it was presented to me as a strategy to build a list of buyers, the most valuable kind of list. But after being here on the warrior forum and hearing what others have to say I have chosen to do a few things to make it easier for the customer.

The first step I take is to let them know to reconfirm their subscription later when they get a chance so they can go straight to the download page after clicking submit.

The second thing I do is put a link below the optin that says something like - If you do not wish to opt in and recieve updates, offers and notice of any new bonuses added to the members page then click here to go directly to the download page.

This way for people who are very against opting in they can go right through to their downloads. Makes everyone happy.

Mike

The reason it's so hard to get agreement on this is because some people simply don't agree that it is in any way "unethical."

And that's understandable. As far as I know, there is no one big book of IM ethics out there that all must bow down to. And I don't recall a vote on this particular issue.

This isn't like theft or fraud. Whether you like it or not, it's a not a "decided" issue. Reasonable people can disagree over things like this. It doesn't make one side good and the other bad.

To me, it's not a question of ethics. It's merely a question of personal preference. Just because this royally pisses you off -- or pisses off most of the Warrior Forum --doesn't make it "unethical." Neither you, I nor this forum make the rules and sets the universal standards of what is absolutely right or wrong. We just decide what we like or don't like.

That said, it's easier to draw flies with honey than vinegar. So we just put a great, great, great bonus at the top of the DL page. It requires a double opt-in and is a product only available to customers. never sold. We also tell them it comes with a subscription to a VIP newsletter, only available to customers. Does remarkably well.

Of course, you could always just password protect your DL page and require a sign up. Lots of people do that. To me, there is little difference between this and any other kind of forced opt-in. But i never see any huge blowup about it.

They ask for it before you click pay. Giving you the option to not purchase if you don't want to fill everything out.

Its really simple to add a check box and 90%+ of the people will leave it checked and opt-in.

There are lots of ways to do this w/out forcing after payment.

Can you learn from a rant? Or are you making too
much money and wasting too much time to see the
actual reason why the OP posts such a thread?

And starting a new forum specifically designed for
people to complain/rant? That's over at Di.. uh,
another forum.

Adding my 2 cents.
is makin

Does that mean you read every single post? You could have skipped this one, you know.

Mike, Yep. Are you suggesting that we shouldn't be concerned about the less-than-ultimate issues? If not, I fail to see the point you're making with this comment.

Jason, And a lot of people would prefer not to buy from "someone who casually discounts legitimate concerns" about proper disclosure of terms before a sale. I think both sides are looking at it through a one-way prism: What they personally prefer, rather than what's real.

Even assuming the rest of the arguments in favor of "forcing" a subscription were not nonsense, I have objections that go well beyond the concept of permission.

Two words: Spam filters.

Two more: Service interruptions.

Two more: Ad blockers.

Here's three: Acceptable use policies.

I've been on both ends of the problem of spam filters blocking or simply deleting product delivery emails and confirmation requests. If your system isn't set up properly, that leaves the customer without the item they purchased.

If your list host/autoresponder is down, same thing. Plenty of that lately, eh? And all of them experience delivery problems at various ISPs from time to time, mostly resulting in emails hitting the bulk folder.

A significant number of the sites I've seen using this tactic lately use the JS forms from Aweber. Anyone with an ad blocker enabled in Firefox (and possibly other browsers), or with JS turned off, is going to be unable to even see that form. Ooops...

I'm not sure about Clickbank or any of the others, but Paypal will give you hell about this if it's reported to them. They consider it a violation of their acceptable use policies.

It also happens to be frowned on by some of the autoresponder and list hosting services. Tread carefully there. I've been told by a couple of people at abuse desks that they'd block mail from any company that did this. That's less likely than the others to be a problem, but it's something to be aware of.

Back to the original topic...

Even among the most extreme spamfighters I know, there's virtually no objection to automatically adding someone to a list to notify them of updates and the like that are directly relevant to a product for which they actually paid money.

So much for the "It's for your own good" argument.

I know very few people who object to adding paying customers to a list for other types of commercial email, assuming it's not heavily used to promote unrelated items.

I don't personally mind getting automatically added to a customer list. If it's used more than I like, or for things I don't think are appropriate to the purchase, I just unsubscribe. It only becomes a problem if the unsubscribe doesn't work, or if I'm re-added without having made another purchase. (Then it's just spam.)

There is no law I'm aware of in the US that forbids contact with cash-paying customers, by email or any other medium, as long as it stops when they ask. Australia and much of Europe have different laws, which it would be good to look into before pushing this too far.

The real reason most people do this the way they do is to get recorded verification data for their list host, so they can claim it was an acceptable opt-in. Those people are likely to hammer their customers with email after email, some of them on a daily basis.

In those cases, the "opt-in" is required to provide a defense against spam complaints when they send the customers enough mail that they know the complaints will follow.

That is deliberately deceptive. That makes those uses unethical.

If you're going to email your customers, just freaking do it. Don't force us to pretend it was a separate, voluntary transaction. It's not. But we do expect the mail.

For all you folks who think this is a trivial and unreasonable concern, I have a question:

What, exactly, do you have against letting people know what they'll get before they hand over the cash?

Why is proper up-front disclosure something you find so noxious and burdensome? Is it really that hard to put a note in the sales copy telling people they'll get [X type of] email, along with their product?

Newsflash: With very few exceptions, I am one of the lowest maintenance customers you will ever encounter. I buy a lot, and most of the time you'll never hear from me again until the next time I buy. I don't recall ever asking for a refund for any reason other than failure to disclose conditions before the sale.

But hey... If you don't want my money because I expect to be treated like a person, and not an anonymous wallet, fine. Let me know. There's nothing out there I can't do without or for which I can't find a suitable substitute.


Paul

In this case i decide me to use my 10-minute-addy...
So i can confirm, get the stuff and bye bye.

i didn't pay to grow up the list... :-D

Whats so interesting about that? What are you insinuating here anyway?

If you've ever bought anything from me you'd see that I have it as an OPTION but I guess we can all just go around assuming things to be true without actually checking it out first...

Mike Hill

LOL User name "Black Hat Cat" has this to say? Color me shockingly unsurprised.

Having to repeat this seminal point is really getting boring, but... once more into the breach, dear friends!

I don't care that the seller has my contact info through the payment process. I don't care if they send me the occasional email, even if it's to try to get me to buy something else they sell.

The ONLY part of this I have a beef with is forcing me to opt in and confirm - PAY ATTENTION TO THIS PART - after I've paid and before I've downloaded... as a condition of downloading what I just paid for, AND without informing me on the sales page.

I guess examples are required. Sigh. OK... you go to the movies. You buy tickets. You're about to walk into the theatre when a manger stops you and tells you that you must buy a box of Milk Duds before entering. You can afford the Milk Duds. You might even have planned on buying some before the show started. It still ticks you off that you're being required to buy them, right?

If anyone here claims this would not at least mildly upset them, they're lying. And we all know it. So let's stop with the silly, illogical counter-arguments and calling the OP hyperbole, ok? Seriously.

John

Who don't i use?

Let's take something most are familiar with. Clickbank.

Was just responding to your pm, but figured it would be best for everyone to see. Thanks.

Strangely enough I received a complaint from a buying customer who raised a support request over at Clickbank for this very issue. To be honest, up until then Id never really given it any thought, but when this email came in, I got a bit worried and found myself rummaging through Clickbanks TOS.

It ended up going no-where and as far as I can tell, Im within Clickbanks TOS doing this - but would appreciate any input or thoughts from others here on this.

Email below...(actually Ill include the whole series of emails for arguments sake)

CUSTOMER: CREATED: 2009-07-06 07:29:53 AM
"Hi, I was wondering if it is against your terms of service if a vendor Requires the purchaser to opt-in to their email system before allowing me to download what I purchased? This vendor is doing this and I was not happy about it. Thanks for your help."

My reply...

The optin upon download is merely to allow me to follow up on your purchase to seek feedback and advice as to what you thought of the book. Obviously, If this is in breach of any terms of service, or guidelines with clickbank, I would be more than happy to make the necessary changes to ensure that I work within those guidelines. I have searched within the clickbank site for further information on this, but dont see anything. Perhaps someone could point me in the right direction?

Another follow up reply....

VENDOR: COMMENTED: 2009-07-06 08:32:06 AM
As far as I can tell I am within those guidelines as per the "Vendor and Products Requirements Policy" You will create and be responsible and liable for: (1) a "Pitch Page" which accurately and clearly describes such Product; and (2) a "Thank You" page through which Purchasers will immediately receive the Product or through which they will receive clearly and accurate instructions on how and when they will receive the Product.
Again, if there are any issues, I would be more than glad to have them corrected or actioned as necessary.


No response from customer - TICKET CLOSED.

I think whether you feel it's ethical or not, the point about technical issues with email filters, etc. keeping you from getting the product you purchased are good enough reason to make the opt-in optional. They can choose to either opt-in and download the product, or they can just download and be on their way.

Also, I think people are a little more psychologically invested in seeing your newsletters when they've given you their contact info by choice, based on the reasons you gave them, versus doing it because they had no choice.

Well gee thats helpful.

Its not a stupid form - its there for good reason.

Two things to add.

1. Trends

In the rebuttal thread,

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...er-opting.html

Frank Donovan posted this

In the last couple of years there have been several threads on this topic and the general consensus was to pooh pooh any complaints and dismiss the people complaining as poor marketers.

Now the pendulum has swung. Whether it is the recession or people becoming more cynical/suspicious, this has become a big issue and you ignore it at your peril.

2. Disclosure.

If you're going to do this, make sure you block all Australian residents from buying your product. The Australian authorities are really hot on penalising lack of upfront disclosure. The FTC is a pussycat compared to them. The argument that you are just making things easier for your customers won't hold water.

Martin

The issue is forced opt-in that is not divulged on the sales page. So someone pays you for your product, but then you withhold delivery of that product until they not only opt in to your list, but then confirm that opt-in. You give them no option to skip it and go right to the download page. Again, keep in mind that the sales page says nothing about being required to opt in and confirm as a condition of the sale.

So, do you still think this is ok? If so, I'll add you to my growing list of unethical sellers to avoid at all costs. I'm going to send out the list to all of my subscribers in a week or so.

That last bit was a joke... maybe.

John

You act like you're doing the customer a favor .... sorry, but the customer is doing you a favor by purchasing your product. If the customer does not like to be forced to do something in order to receive his already purchased product and you still insist on forcing them to get on your list so you can blast him with more offers, then ... now get this

The Customer Will Remove Himself From Your Crappy List Lightning Fast to Make Sure THEY Never Have to be Forced into Something They Do Not Want to Do to Get Something They Paid For Again .... so you arrogant vendors who think a bitchin customer is a worthless customer ... you're right ... you won't have to deal with us again.

In my book, if a customer is "bitchin" ... you are doing something wrong.

Nathan, Depends on the offer. When there's a subscription involved, my solution has usually been to make the opt-in real, in the sense that they can get the product with or without signing up for anything.

If you're going to make it part of the transaction, tell them about it in close proximity to, or as part of, the product description and as part of the call to action and offer summary.

I've been surprised a few times by stuff after the sale that I didn't remember seeing in the copy. When that happens, I go back and re-read it. If it's there, and it's reasonably clear, I tend to think better of the seller for having been up front. If it's not, and it's material to the purchase, I decide what I want to do about it.

There's no absolute protection against people not reading. The best you can do is to be clear and mention things in the right places.

I used to get a fair number of people ordering digital books and not noticing wording like "ebook," "digital manual," "PDF format," or "This is not a physical product. It's a digital book, which you can download and start reading immediately after ordering."

I was in the habit back then of keeping a copy of sales letters with everything in black and white except those phrases, highlighted in bold red letters. If someone asked politely, I explained and worked out whatever made them happy. If they got nasty, I refunded them and politely pointed them to that page.

One guy went nuts on me after seeing that page. Then he went nuts on me again later, when his bank told him he couldn't do a chargeback on me because the money had already been refunded. Paraphrased, from memory and with the hostile parts left out:

Him: "Why didn't you tell me you were giving me my money back? I wasted all that time and looked foolish!"

Me: "I did, sir. In the same email that pointed you to the page with all the red ink. You read enough of that message to find the page and rant about it. Remember?"

The email was 2 short paragraphs. The first paragraph was, "I've sent you a refund for this order."

There is no defense against people not reading, except to do the right thing and know they can't hurt you much because of that.

Still, making the form optional is the best bet. With any relevant incentive at all, you'll see typically over 90% of people signing up.

Jason,

Yeah. I run mine the way I want, too. And it's not at all the way most people run theirs. One thing I try to always do is leave the other person the choice. The only deliberate exception is when I choose to chase someone out, by blocking them or unsubscribing them myself. The people who want you to mail less are usually going to unsubscribe. Some will put in filters to delete or auto-file the emails. It's unlikely that most people who dislike the practice would actually say anything about it.

Here's an estimate, which anyone who's got the right kind of tracking system can check for themselves: Approximately 5% of the people who sign up through a form like that who were not already subscribed to one of your lists will unsubscribe within 24 hours. 6-10% will unsubscribe within the first 3 emails.


Paul

Thre above is total CRAP! We trusted them enough to hand over our dollars, but we dont want to enter any details to get our damn product do we?

What if next time you fancied hiring a video out, i take your dollars but before i give you the film show you a commercial for vagisil...

Nobody's getting agitated about it, someone has just decided to tell everyone what they dont like about a certain marketing tactic....it sounds like you use this ploy a lot in your marketing endevours....

A choice is all we would like to see...CHOICES...CHOICES....CHOICES...

I choose not to enter my email and download the product.....or...

i choose to enter my email and download the product so i can be sent further information....

Aint nothin wrong with that....

P.S : When you said: "I wish I had the time to get so agitated about an issue on this scale".....

YOU JUST DID....

I just don't think it's necessary to change my sales page.

Most (if not all) of my customers won't care about putting their email address after they buy.

They won't care because:

1) They like me and trust me enough to actually buy from me.

2) I explain to them the legitimate reasons I have for doing so.

3) It takes them like 5 seconds to do it.

4) My market is not the "make money online" market, which means that they are not constantly being bombarded with squeeze pages and opt-in forms.

5) My market is a spanish market, which means I was probably the first list they ever subscribed to.

So, changing my sales page won't make a difference.

Probably 1 out of 1,000 customers will appreciate it. Others won't even notice.

The main problem I have with you is that you are trying to demonize all the marketers that don't put this little message in the sales page saying "hey, I'm going to ask for your email after you buy".

It's such a trivial thing and so unnecessary in my opinion.

Sorry but I 100% disagree with you.

Don't try to make me look bad or evil just because I don't share your opinion. I have clearly explained in this post the reasons why I won't do what you say.

I have to agree with John. Really, please stop doing this. I may not complain so loudly when it happens to me, but make no mistake about it. It DOES piss me off, it IS unethical, and it negatively influences me against buying stuff from you again. Just because you never hear from your customers about it, don't assume that it doesn't matter. It does.

Susan

When I buy a product that offers lifetime updates, be it an ebook or software, I have no objection to being added to a list in order to be notified of updates.

However, what infuriates me, is when the marketer sends constant unrelated pitches to that same list. Some marketers even keep separate lists for purchasers of their separate products, so if I've purchased more than one product from them, I get multiple duplicate messages from them for all their future pitches, regardless of whether it relates to the products I purchased.

If you have the ability to set up multiple lists for each product you sell, then you also have the ability to set up a separate list for unrelated pitches.

Why can't sellers in the IM field do the same as retail establishments? When someone buys a product, you can add them to your customer list that is related only to the specific purchase, but then ask them if they are willing to receive other messages of interest from you in future? So ask permission to be added to a generic list, and keep the list related to the individual product purchase *only* for future announcements about that product.

Then you can send your pitches to only one list, which is a combination of your customers from any product you've ever sold, that have specifically agreed to get messages from you about things other than product updates. And those loyal customers who may have purchased multiple products from you over the years won't get irritated to receive three or four identical messages every time you send a pitch.

I've opted out of so many lists because I was bombarded with pitches, only to realize that I've missed important announcements related to updates of products I did purchase and did want to be informed about.

Susan

If you give them a choice and inform them of the reasons, why would they be angry? Does your unsubscribe method not work? Well, if making choices about who I deal with based on their treatment of others makes me a crybaby, count me in. Odd choice of labels, but I can work with it. So, you don't control the download page. Almost any statement following those words is a lie; an attempt to evade responsibility, or the desire to avoid stating one's real motivations.

Of course you have a choice. You simply choose to do things a certain way for your own benefit. Nothing wrong with that, but you're lying if you claim you don't have any other choice.


Paul