RANT: Why do so many IMers lack basic web development?

244 replies
Ok, so this is something that has been bugging me for a while. Why is it that so many IMers don't bother to learn basic web design? The common excuse seems to be the ol' "I should outsource this" mentality, but I can't imagine someone outsourcing the ability to "type" or "read".

It's the 21st century, and this industry is built around the Internet. Learning how to create, publish, and maintain your own website is absolutely critical to long-term success.

Yes, you should ultimately outsource repetitive work, but you need the ability to do your own stuff when getting started. Later this information benefits you when it's time to outsource (knowing what can and can't be done, and how much time something should take).

I strongly recommend that people focus on web design and basic copywriting before buying some $1000 course on how to "make money online".

/rant

EDIT: It's pretty clear the vast majority of people replying to this thread ignored the last two paragraphs of this post...
#basic #development #imers #lack #rant #web
  • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
    Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

    Ok, so this is something that has been bugging me for a while. Why is it that so many IMers don't bother to learn basic web design? The common excuse seems to be the ol' "I should outsource this" mentality, but I can't imagine someone outsourcing the ability to "type" or "read".

    It's the 21st century, and this industry is built around the Internet. Learning how to create, publish, and maintain your own website is absolutely critical to long-term success.

    Yes, you should ultimately outsource repetitive work, but you need the ability to do your own stuff when getting started. Later this information benefits you when it's time to outsource (knowing what can and can't be done, and how much time something should take).

    I strongly recommend that people focus on web design and basic copywriting before buying some $1000 course on how to "make money online".

    /rant

    So far outsourcing has worked pretty well for me. When I see that it no longer does then I will spend precious time doing that, thanks for heads up.
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  • Profile picture of the author butters
    I my self have a basic understanding but it isn't needed at all... With such tools as wordpress and installing it is made simple via fantastico, it really isn't needed. Anything small tweaks you want to do to your wordpress site, you can outsource it for dirt cheap. It really isn't needed, it just helps.
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    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
      You just can't do the same things using themes, wordpress auto-installs, etc.... it is incredibly difficult to innovate if you can't create your own stuff on the fly. Things like custom opt-in forms, new squeeze page designs, custom wordpress themes, minor theme tweeks, etc...

      This stuff ads up if you outsource it, and it prevents things from getting done in a timely manner. When small changes start costing a significant amount of money, it starts to discourage you from making them. Also, time is important in terms of outsourcing, but it is also important when it comes to getting things done quickly... to keep up with the marketplace.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    So what if they do. Let them. I worry about my own business and don't care if some other marketer can't put a user interface together.
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    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      So what if they do. Let them. I worry about my own business and don't care if some other marketer can't put a user interface together.
      True enough. It's just one of those things that seems off, especially for people that are just getting started. So many newbies are convinced that the best way to get something done is hire it out, and that limits their creativity and can eventually kill the momentum of their business.
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

        True enough. It's just one of those things that seems off, especially for people that are just getting started. So many newbies are convinced that the best way to get something done is hire it out, and that limits their creativity and can eventually kill the momentum of their business.
        And thus it becomes your competitive advantage. Right?

        Unless of course, you're in the outsourcing services business, in which case you want everyone outsourcing everything (to you).

        It's all in how you frame things.
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        • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
          Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

          And thus it becomes your competitive advantage. Right?
          Yes, but I don't see myself competing with most people. Instead it frustrates me to see them struggling with their site when with a little effort they could do so much better.
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      • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
        Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

        So many newbies are convinced that the best way to get something done is hire it out, and that limits their creativity and can eventually kill the momentum of their business.
        On the flip side, struggling to learn a new skill can also kill momentum -- especially if the person who's struggling is a technophobe.

        I've seen people who cruise full speed ahead as they set up their business -- until they run into anything even remotely technical. BAM, it's like they hit a wall. And they'll spend days or even weeks struggling to understand a task that would take an expert no more than a few minutes to do.

        For example -- installing a script. Easy peasy once you get the hang of it. But the first time can be a killer for a beginner, as he or she tries to decipher lingo like "chmod" and "php." And so something that should take five minutes ends up taking a very long time.

        I tell people to outsource these things so their progress isn't stalled for weeks. But I do suggest they learn 'em in their spare time so that they don't need to depend on others in the future (especially for simple tasks) if they don't want to.

        Some people never want to learn the tech side. And that's their choice. They can make a boatload of money either way.

        Cheers,
        Becky
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        • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
          Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

          I tell people to outsource these things so their progress isn't stalled for weeks. But I do suggest they learn 'em in their spare time so that they don't need to depend on others in the future (especially for simple tasks) if they don't want to.
          Solid advice. Good post.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
          Rick,

          I hear you.

          I learned web design years ago b/c I didn't want to wait 2 weeks for my webmaster to make a small change on my sites... and then get wacked $200 for his "time".

          I still do my own b/c I write my own sales copy so it's just as easy to do the layout that I want at the same time. I do outsource my graphic work b/c I'm not a graphic designer (and have no illusions about ever being one either).

          Biggest reason I can give on learning how to create your own webpages is it can have a major impact on your conversion rates. Based on my research, a well-designed and an easy to read webpage can increase conversion rates by 25-30%.

          Take care,

          Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
            Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

            Rick,

            I hear you.

            I learned web design years ago b/c I didn't want to wait 2 weeks for my webmaster to make a small change on my sites... and then get wacked $200 for his "time".

            I still do my own b/c I write my own sales copy so it's just as easy to do the layout that I want at the same time. I do outsource my graphic work b/c I'm not a graphic designer (and have no illusions about ever being one either).

            Biggest reason I can give on learning how to create your own webpages is it can have a major impact on your conversion rates. Based on my research, a well-designed and an easy to read webpage can increase conversion rates by 25-30%.

            Take care,

            Mike
            Yeah, I think conversion is one of the big things that gets a boost... for sure. Cause when you do it yourself, it's easier to "test stuff". If every test costs money, it just doesn't happen as often as it should.
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
              Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

              Yeah, I think conversion is one of the big things that gets a boost... for sure. Cause when you do it yourself, it's easier to "test stuff". If every test costs money, it just doesn't happen as often as it should.
              Agreed.

              When you're starting out, you usually don't have the money to outsource tasks or know who to outsource it too.

              Then as the money starts coming in from your business efforts, you can outsource the tasks that you don't know how to do or don't want to do.

              Once you're established, then you can outsource practically everything if you want.

              Most of my web design I do myself because I like doing it and know exactly what I want... and it's done the same day. Web designers... well, alot of the ones I've met want to make pretty pictures instead of websites that makes sales.

              I also want to setup testing on salesletters and squeeze pages, which is alot easier and faster to do myself than outsource it to a webmaster. Once the testing software is installed, it takes me about 15 minutes to setup a test.

              I've already written the copy being tested so it wouldn't matter if I outsourced it or not.

              Having said that... there's alot of tasks I do outsource because there's better use of my time like writing sales copy.

              I've found it's still useful to know how to do tasks like audio editing so I can do them in a pinch if needed. And when I was starting out, I did all of the little tasks until my business could pay to outsource them.

              Take care,

              Mike
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              • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
                Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

                Agreed.

                When you're starting out, you usually don't have the money to outsource tasks or know who to outsource it too.

                Then as the money starts coming in from your business efforts, you can outsource the tasks that you don't know how to do or don't want to do.

                Once you're established, then you can outsource practically everything if you want.
                And thats where it goes tits up... they never get established because they never get over the technical hurdle.

                take the technical stuff away from them, and they have a fighting chance


                here is the deal... In our coaching program we give them access to our tech team. Totally take the fear of the tech stuff away. either my guys will explain it to them or they will do it for them to get them over that hurdle

                We also give them a button to press for marketing help, once they build there site with our tech teams help using our software they can then have Donna and myself do a complete hot seat of their site.

                we will go through the whole process with them ticking what they did right and suggesting improvements where they went wrong

                the tech help button gets pressed multiple times per day

                the marketing help button has been pushed once in 2 years

                Anybody see where the problem is here?

                Robert
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                • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
                  Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                  And thats where it goes tits up... they never get established because they never get over the technical hurdle.
                  Sorry, that is just not true in all situations. I could NEVER have started my own business without learning the tech first. I would have lost so much money trying to get started, it would have never happened. Not everyone can afford to pay a coach right out of the gate, or outsource everything as they learn the ropes.

                  Years later, I am now a silent partner in my business (100% outsourced) with ZERO day-to-day responsibilities. I could literally retire on my ongoing cashflow, but I enjoy what I do... so I've started something new with the skills I've been fortunate enough to develop.

                  Learning fundamental skills is a great path to success, especially for people that are driven. You maintain a higher level of control, don't spend a fortune while testing various ideas, and get more fulfillment from the entire process (IMO).
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                  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
                    Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                    Sorry, that is just not true in all situations.
                    Nothing is true in all situations...

                    I cant do basic tech tasks, never could. Once i stopped trying to do them I started making money.

                    And what sells our coaching program is the "let us take all the pain of the tech problems away from you" and not the "let us make you a better marketer through us going through your sites line by line to optimise the sales they make"

                    And it really should be the other way around
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                    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
                      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                      Nothing is true in all situations...

                      I cant do basic tech tasks, never could. Once i stopped trying to do them I started making money.

                      And what sells our coaching program is the "let us take all the pain of the tech problems away from you" and not the "let us make you a better marketer through us going through your sites line by line to optimise the sales they make"

                      And it really should be the other way around
                      You didn't address my point. If the bulk of their issues revolve around tech related problems, why not simplify their life by learning the basics?

                      You can't "take the pain of the tech problems away". They still have to hit the panic button, wait for a response, and deal with the back-and-forth of making sure things get done they way they want.

                      This is like saying viagra cures ED. It doesn't... it helps you live with it, and can sometimes leave you with 4 hours of awkward waiting when something goes wrong (not from experience... just saying).
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                • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
                  Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                  the tech help button gets pressed multiple times per day

                  the marketing help button has been pushed once in 2 years

                  Anybody see where the problem is here?
                  Um, they should learn the tech skills so they aren't so reliant on someone else?

                  Was I supposed to see this some other way? Because you've been disagreeing with me thus far, but I don't see how else this can be taken.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
                    Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                    Um, they should learn the tech skills so they aren't so reliant on someone else?

                    Was I supposed to see this some other way? Because you've been disagreeing with me thus far, but I don't see how else this can be taken.

                    yes your now being deliberatly obtuse...

                    They can either choose to learn 50 different things and never get very good at any of them

                    or they can learn one thing (the only thing that actually makes money which is the sales process) and pay someone to do the other 49 things.

                    if they take that route they could be in profit in a month

                    take your route and they may never get going at all
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                    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
                      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                      yes your now being deliberatly obtuse...
                      I see you deliberately outsourced your spelling and grammar review process .

                      BTW, I'm just having fun. I like this debate, and hope you feel the same.

                      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                      They can either choose to learn 50 different things and never get very good at any of them

                      or they can learn one thing (the only thing that actually makes money which is the sales process) and pay someone to do the other 49 things.

                      if they take that route they could be in profit in a month

                      take your route and they may never get going at all
                      Well, assuming that we both realize that there are multiple paths to success (what you have suggested, and what worked for me)...

                      I would ask which path has the most risk. Relying on someone else for your skill set to work is risky. If it doesn't work, you are out some cash (from the marketing training) and have no way to apply your skill again without hiring someone to do the tech (taking a second risk in trying to apply the marketing skill again).

                      If you learn the tech... you always have a backup plan (do work for other businesses with your tech skills), but can make multiple attempts to start your own business without any cost (outside of time, which is spent equally in both situations).

                      With all that said, it's far less risky to learn the basics on which to build future success, rather than relying on someone else for every attempt.

                      BTW, what "50" things are you talking about? I said "basic web development", which can be learned in an afternoon, and be expanded upon over time.
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                • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
                  Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                  And thats where it goes tits up... they never get established because they never get over the technical hurdle.

                  take the technical stuff away from them, and they have a fighting chance
                  Any good hosting company handles the majority of technical stuff that can crop up with a website. I use LiquidWeb.com and they handle a ton for me, including restoring sites that had gotten hacked.

                  The OP asked about basic web development like HTML. Learning how to build a decent looking HTML webpage isn't difficult. Do a Google search and you'll find a ton of free tutorials for whatever web design software you want to use. Personally, I like the training videos at lynda.com but their training isn't free ($25/month).

                  Learning script installation, programming, and other technical stuff is a whole another animal.

                  I've mostly outsourced it from the get-go but there's still been times where I've needed to do something like install a membership site script like Launch Formula Marketing (my most recommended membership site script). LFM is practically painless but you still need to know where to find basic stuff like the MySQL database name that you're going to use when you install LFM. (For the newbies, Robert does have training videos that show you where to find the info you need for installing his script).

                  Take care,

                  Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author abundantlife085
          I agree. I've seen so many people building up momentum and making tons of progress until they get to a point where they're trying to figure out something technical and get stuck on it for DAYS or even weeks, spending hours and hours doing something that could be outsourced for $5!!

          Back when I was getting started, I made this "mistake" (see my last few paragraphs for why it was still 'sort of' valuable). I created a product, a sales letter, high quality articles, etc. fast, then decided it would be a 'good idea' to learn html and put up my own site.

          3 MONTHS later I had my site up and working properly - it was horribly ugly - the code was a mess and full of tons of font tags and paragraph tags on every sentence - the file structure was all messed up because I didn't know what I was doing and it ended up being a HUGE mess down the road after adding dozens of pages.

          I probably spent 'at least' 100 hours doing what could have been outsourced for $50 or less. Plus I could have been making money 3 months sooner if I hadn't been trying to figure all that out, so there's all the money 'lost' during that time too.

          HOWEVER, I do see the point you're trying to make with this thread. It's definitely a great asset to know "what can and can't be done" and ESPECIALLY to know how long things should take and how much they should cost.

          When I've outsourced tasks, I've had dozens of bidders try to tell me a 10-15 min task would take them 3-4 hours. In fact I've had several times where bidders quoted 8-10 HOURS for a 30-45 minute task! If I didn't know what I now know about html, I might believe them and end up overpaying and waiting days or weeks for something that should be done in an hour or less.

          SO - it's tough to say what way is the 'right' way.

          My opinion is it'd be valuable to spend a week or two at most going through some html classes on w3schools.com and practicing doing a few things you think you'll need in your business so you kind of know what's going on, but don't waste hours and hours of your time doing $5-$10/hr html tasks when you could be spending your time on more profitable activities.



          Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

          On the flip side, struggling to learn a new skill can also kill momentum -- especially if the person who's struggling is a technophobe.

          I've seen people who cruise full speed ahead as they set up their business -- until they run into anything even remotely technical. BAM, it's like they hit a wall. And they'll spend days or even weeks struggling to understand a task that would take an expert no more than a few minutes to do.

          For example -- installing a script. Easy peasy once you get the hang of it. But the first time can be a killer for a beginner, as he or she tries to decipher lingo like "chmod" and "php." And so something that should take five minutes ends up taking a very long time.

          I tell people to outsource these things so their progress isn't stalled for weeks. But I do suggest they learn 'em in their spare time so that they don't need to depend on others in the future (especially for simple tasks) if they don't want to.

          Some people never want to learn the tech side. And that's their choice. They can make a boatload of money either way.

          Cheers,
          Becky
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          • Profile picture of the author abundantlife085
            Originally Posted by itsliz View Post

            When I've outsourced tasks, I've had dozens of bidders try to tell me a 10-15 min task would take them 3-4 hours. In fact I've had several times where bidders quoted 8-10 HOURS for a 30-45 minute task! If I didn't know what I now know about html, I might believe them and end up overpaying and waiting days or weeks for something that should be done in an hour or less.
            Quick note on this though - I've had this same thing happen with tasks I had no idea how to do, and I almost overpaid many times, but then I'll get 1 or 2 bids that are drastically different from the others as far as budget and time, and I'll follow up with them and find out 'the truth'.

            Luckily there are honest people out there, and while a whole gang of providers may spot your lack of knowledge by the way you write your project description and try to overcharge you based on that, I'm almost always 'saved' by someone who is honest and does a great job.

            It helps to be very thorough during your hiring process, checking previous feedback, asking various questions about what they're going to do and how they're going to do it, etc. This 'interview' process tends to scare off some of the con men.
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            • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
              Originally Posted by itsliz View Post

              Quick note on this though - I've had this same thing happen with tasks I had no idea how to do, and I almost overpaid many times, but then I'll get 1 or 2 bids that are drastically different from the others as far as budget and time, and I'll follow up with them and find out 'the truth'.

              Luckily there are honest people out there, and while a whole gang of providers may spot your lack of knowledge by the way you write your project description and try to overcharge you based on that, I'm almost always 'saved' by someone who is honest and does a great job.

              It helps to be very thorough during your hiring process, checking previous feedback, asking various questions about what they're going to do and how they're going to do it, etc. This 'interview' process tends to scare off some of the con men.
              Well, there are also people that under-quote and then dramatically under-deliver. There is no question, having knowledge about the task does simplify the outsourcing process on some level. It may not be a big deal for everyone, but it's something that makes a difference for me.

              Your points about checking previous feedback and properly interviewing people can make up for this, but it still helps to be able to instantly identify a clear rip-off.
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      • Profile picture of the author ozduc
        Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

        So many newbies are convinced that the best way to get something done is hire it out, and that limits their creativity and can eventually kill the momentum of their business.
        On the contrary I think it is quite the opposite. So many newbies get stuck, frustrated and lose their creativity BECAUSE they are trying to learn all the coding stuff that has really nothing whatsoever to do with Marketing.The design side of it does have something to do with Marketing but I can come up with some pretty creative ideas without having to know how to actually get them on to the web page.
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        • Profile picture of the author JDArchitecture
          Why can't you just be happy that you have a leg up on the competition?


          IM is no different than any other business. We all choose the tasks we can/want to self-perform and, if we're smart, do so based on skill sets and time available/opportunity costs.

          I'm learning what I can because I'm cheap and resources are limited, but I don't envision attaining the skills that many of you have... no time or inclination, and frankly, no real need.
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          • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
            I'd like to add that web development does not end at web design (e.g. making layouts, adding pretty fonts, and snazzy header images).
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  • Profile picture of the author ema
    I have to agree that because of outsourcing, Imers tend to focus on idea generation and outsource the hard tasks
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  • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
    I was wondering about the same for a long time... so I have to agree

    And something related to the lack of basic "read" skill: at least post your basic html questions in the right forum (i.e. NOT here!!!) -> Website Design or if it's a coding questions -> Programming Talk

    Yes, how to tweak your WordPress installation is also html/css... so it should not be posted here in the main forum.

    </rant over>
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    As an old-time coder who still uses Notepad to create websites, I agree web design is a good skill to have. However, it still comes down to personal preferences and personal needs. Capitalize on your strengths and find ways to overcome your weaknesses. Outsourcing is the fastest, easiest way to overcome a weakness and keep momentum on your side.

    Whatever works for you, right?
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    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
    Why do so many IMers lack basic web development?
    Because they'd end up as head-cases, like me, if they had to do everything themselves.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
    I'm a bit of a control freak (which is not good) so I like to learn that stuff. I don't like to be at the mercy of others in a pinch. But I can see the other side of the coin as well. Focus on what you do best and IMers are marketers not web developers/designers.

    I doubt the CEO of Roter Rooter knows how to fix a toilet or do basic plumbing work.
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    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
      Warning, slightly veering off topic...

      Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

      I doubt the CEO of Roter Rooter knows how to fix a toilet or do basic plumbing work.
      He does now! I watched an episode of "Undercover Boss" where the CEO disguised his appearance and went out to work alongside some of his employees. You're right -- he totally sucked and didn't know what he was doing. But he did learn a few things before the show was over.

      Cheers,
      Becky
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    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
      Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

      I'm a bit of a control freak (which is not good) so I like to learn that stuff. I don't like to be at the mercy of others in a pinch. But I can see the other side of the coin as well. Focus on what you do best and IMers are marketers not web developers/designers.

      I doubt the CEO of Roter Rooter knows how to fix a toilet or do basic plumbing work.
      I think the best CEOs are the ones that know the work, and used to do the job at some point. They make clearer decisions, and understand both the macro and micro elements of their business.

      Everything can be outsourced, but at what cost? It's important to have a firm grasp of how a company runs, and why it is successful.
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
        Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

        I think the best CEOs are the ones that know the work, and used to do the job at some point. They make clearer decisions, and understand both the macro and micro elements of their business.

        Everything can be outsourced, but at what cost? It's important to have a firm grasp of how a company runs, and why it is successful.
        The best CEO's are the ones who can find cleverer people than them to run everything
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        • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
          Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

          The best CEO's are the ones who can find cleverer people than them to run everything
          I've heard that line, and it "sounds" good, but I have to disagree in theory. If someone is smarter than you, why do they need you? Why are they working for you?

          Obviously at some point you are bringing value to the equation. That kind of value can't be outsourced. Whatever it ends up being.
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          • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
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            • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
              Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

              A good and creative business owner, who has his hand on the pulse of a market will know THESE things and will effectively outsource to the genius programmer/web developer.
              I understand your point, but this entire topic is going off course. My point was that "beginners" should learn these things... rather than spending a small fortune on "make money" courses. If you have an established business, than it is easy to outsource stuff right away. However, if you are the ONLY person in your company (just getting started), it makes no sense to be waiting-on/paying someone else to setup the very basics and make every minor change as you learn the ropes.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                I would agree, but that isn't how it works. I can have a website up and running quicker than making a phone call to an agent. I can make tweeks faster than writing an e-mail to get it done. I can try things on the fly, and get results instantly. The internet is moving at a fast pace, and relying on someone else for EVERY SINGLE change doesn't make sense.
                But that's just it, that's what works best for YOU. Never everyone works best within your parameters.
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          • Profile picture of the author thebarksmeow
            Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

            I've heard that line, and it "sounds" good, but I have to disagree in theory. If someone is smarter than you, why do they need you? Why are they working for you?

            Obviously at some point you are bringing value to the equation. That kind of value can't be outsourced. Whatever it ends up being.
            Just because they do something better doesn't mean they're "smarter" than you. The CEO is the better businessman. I'm sure a worker at mcdonalds can flip burgers, run a cash register, and clean the floors better than the owner. Does that mean they're smarter and should run the company?
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    • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
      Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

      I'm a bit of a control freak (which is not good) so I like to learn that stuff. I don't like to be at the mercy of others in a pinch. But I can see the other side of the coin as well. Focus on what you do best and IMers are marketers not web developers/designers.

      I doubt the CEO of Roter Rooter knows how to fix a toilet or do basic plumbing work.
      Actually, he went undercover as a worker for a week, so he does! Undercover Boss. Great show. I come from a web design/development background and learn when I feel like it. But I can still go with the code if I need to. Something breaks, I can fix it if need be. But most of my time is spent with ideas/research/wordpress.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
        Originally Posted by cypherslock View Post

        Actually, he went undercover as a worker for a week, so he does! Undercover Boss. Great show. I come from a web design/development background and learn when I feel like it. But I can still go with the code if I need to. Something breaks, I can fix it if need be. But most of my time is spent with ideas/research/wordpress.
        Yea but before he went "undercover" for a TV show he did not. His background was in sales not plumbing.
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  • Profile picture of the author CurtisN
    You're missing the whole point of outsourcing: it's to free up one's time so they can do something more profitable (or enjoyable).

    Why should anyone, newbie or not, waste their time learning graphic design or copywriting when this stuff should ultimately be left to the pros?

    I don't need to know web design or copy to recognize when they're done properly (or not).

    You take a look at all the gurus in our field. Granted, some of them are pretty good at writing copy, but most of them don't write copy for clients anymore (just for themselves). I'll bet that the vast majority of them don't know how to code or design. I remember hearing one expert say that he had never put up a Squidoo lens before and didn't know how to do it, simply because he had someone on his staff who took care of this stuff.

    Would it hurt to have all this basic knowledge? No...but before you pursue this knowledge, maybe you should think about what you could be doing instead.

    Curtis
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by CurtisN View Post

      You're missing the whole point of outsourcing: it's to free up one's time so they can do something more profitable (or enjoyable).

      Why should anyone, newbie or not, waste their time learning graphic design or copywriting when this stuff should ultimately be left to the pros?

      Curtis
      I can think of several reasons. Many of the newbies here want to get rich quick but haven't got two nickels to rub together to start. I hear many say they can't afford a domain and hosting, much less outsourcing.

      No one has to be the best web designer but it certainly does not hurt to buckle down and learn some skills. You'd be surprised how skills can benefit you in the long run. I wouldn't trade all the outsourcers in the world for the skills I've acquired.

      It isn't a matter of doing something more profitable because most newbies aren't doing anything profitable. Those skills could come in real handy in a cash crisis. Instead of whining about not being able to pay the rent and having to beg McDonald's for a job, they could be setting up and configuring blogs for all the others who refuse to learn anything ... or writing ... or building minisites. Quick and reliable cash. All it takes is some skills.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexww
    umm, guess what, i started IM after serving website design and graphic design services. I knew SEO also, so these made everything for me extremely easy!
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

    Ok, so this is something that has been bugging me for a while. Why is it that so many IMers don't bother to learn basic web design? The common excuse seems to be the ol' "I should outsource this" mentality, but I can't imagine someone outsourcing the ability to "type" or "read".

    It's the 21st century, and this industry is built around the Internet. Learning how to create, publish, and maintain your own website is absolutely critical to long-term success.

    Yes, you should ultimately outsource repetitive work, but you need the ability to do your own stuff when getting started. Later this information benefits you when it's time to outsource (knowing what can and can't be done, and how much time something should take).

    I strongly recommend that people focus on web design and basic copywriting before buying some $1000 course on how to "make money online".

    /rant
    Whilst I don't lack any understanding of basic web development...

    I think your assertion that "Learning how to create, publish, and maintain your own website is absolutely critical to long-term success", is ludicrous... to say the least.

    Do you really think it is vitally important that a businessman performs these tasks?...

    If I can PAY somebody to complete a task, to the same high standard, in half the time... I'm gonna do it. No question.

    No matter how much you rant, rave and posture on this issue, it simply isn't the way I have come to know this business.

    I can create, publish and maintain my own websites...and I still do. But there are also other sites which are being created, published and maintained for me this very minute... by somebody else. And they are earning me revenue that I wouldn't have the time to earn if I did it all myself.

    I can fully appreciate and understand why somebody would want to remove themselves from this area of their business, and completely outsource it.

    In fact, it makes even more sense to me... the more I think about it.

    But having said all that... what does it matter to you?... if they are making it work for them without this great :cough: "knowledge"?...

    Peace

    Jay
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    • Profile picture of the author FredJones
      In theory, I know much more than basic website design - i can personally hand-write PHP and Java codes, including advanced ones.

      But while working in IM and managing my business, I would not want to do that.

      Why do you think practically all of the major IT companies have CEOs coming from the sales/marketing backgrounds and not from IT?
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      • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
        Originally Posted by FredJones View Post

        Why do you think practically all of the major IT companies have CEOs coming from the sales/marketing backgrounds and not from IT?
        That's weird because when I think of CEO's from major IT companies I think of guys like Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, and Bill Gates. You know, guys who aren't exactly computer illiterate.

        But Steve Ballmer on the other hand. He's just a big doofus.
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        • Profile picture of the author FredJones
          Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

          That's weird because when I think of CEO's from major IT companies I think of guys like Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, and Bill Gates. You know, guys who aren't exactly computer illiterate.

          But Steve Ballmer on the other hand. He's just a big doofus.
          Well, how much time do you think Bill Gates would spend in working with computers in the IT sense?

          No, he does not. Reason being - he spends practically all his time in strategization and technology evaluation in terms of end results (my personal perception - I had been employed in his famous organization once upon a time but had never directly interacted with him).

          But trust me, I know Bill to have personally read a good technical proposition by a close friend/colleague of mine on a then-upcoming technology (shall not name the technology because of NDA, but it eventually became a huge thing that shaped the world in its own way) and perfectly appreciated the technical features and business benefits of the concept.

          And yes, the same applies for Steve Balmer. I have interacted with Steve personally (at a high level, not in any kind of deep technical details), and his technical knowledge seemed to be good when viewed from the perspective of translating to business.

          They are wonderful people when it comes to knowing and being capable of developing and applying technology, but they really do not spend time in personally developing technology for their companies. Regardless of the long-back background, they work on developing the business, possibly based on the IT if the corporate deals in IT. This is purely on my belief.

          So I am never talking about computer illiteracy. All I am saying is that it is great to be aware of one's technologies, its features and business translation but to grow the business one need not actively spend time in implementing it. But knowing and handling the business side of it has been treated as the gold nugget.

          In my understanding and belief, that is how Bill Gates works, and personally I believe this is the best possible way of producing positive results. And if one person has proved it, then again, that is Bill !!

          I do not know about Larry Elison and Steve Jobs, but I have a (baseless) gutfeel that they belong to equivalent levels.
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          • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
            Originally Posted by FredJones View Post

            Well, how much time do you think Bill Gates would spend in working with computers in the IT sense?
            My guess would be "next to none".

            And what people should realize is, is that although Bill Gates didn't spend his days programming C during his days as CEO, his deep insight into the technology related to his business was essential to bringing Microsoft to what it is today.

            As the OP has stated....

            Yes, you should ultimately outsource repetitive work, but you need the ability to do your own stuff when getting started. Later this information benefits you when it's time to outsource (knowing what can and can't be done, and how much time something should take).

            ... yes, outsource stuff. But understand the technologies and the capabilities of those technologies that are being outsourced.

            As Bill Gates did not build Windows OS singlehandedly, he couldn't have directed the programmers involved in building it without having a deep fundamental knowledge of programming concepts. If Mr. Gates never wrote a line of code before Microsoft, the Windows OS would be about as good as BeOS (no offense to BeOS fanatics here)

            So yes, learn HTML, learn PHP, install Wordpress yourself. If you're going to outsource this stuff, at least learn a bit about it - you'll be better able to direct others about such things if you're competent in them yourself.

            If you want to start your own Bakery company, wouldn't it be a good idea to at least learn how to make bread - even if you plan to hire others to do it?

            Along those lines, although I'm pretty good at fixing automobiles, I choose to pay others to maintain my vehicles. I do feel that knowing about such things helps me choose the right people when I pay others to do those things.

            edit: Mr. Jones, I wasn't really responding to you in particular. I was responding to your post at first and I just kept on typing.
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            • Profile picture of the author FredJones
              Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

              edit: Mr. Jones, I wasn't really responding to you in particular. I was responding to your post at first and I just kept on typing.
              No worries, points worth discussing and points well-taken
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    • Profile picture of the author thebarksmeow
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      Whilst I don't lack any understanding of basic web development...

      I think your assertion that "Learning how to create, publish, and maintain your own website is absolutely critical to long-term success", is ludicrous... to say the least.

      Do you really think it is vitally important that a businessman performs these tasks?...

      If I can PAY somebody to complete a task, to the same high standard, in half the time... I'm gonna do it. No question.

      No matter how much you rant, rave and posture on this issue, it simply isn't the way I have come to know this business.

      I can create, publish and maintain my own websites...and I still do. But there are also other sites which are being created, published and maintained for me this very minute... by somebody else. And they are earning me revenue that I wouldn't have the time to earn if I did it all myself.

      I can fully appreciate and understand why somebody would want to remove themselves from this area of their business, and completely outsource it.

      In fact, it makes even more sense to me... the more I think about it.

      But having said all that... what does it matter to you?... if they are making it work for them without this great :cough: "knowledge"?...

      Peace

      Jay
      I agree with this. I know web design but that isn't the point. I'm a marketer... so what I'm going to do is market products/services. That's like using market samurai and then saying "Everyone should learn basic programming". I also know how to do my own taxes. Why waste time doing them when I can hire a professional? I can come up with a ton of examples but that would be wasting time. When it comes to my business, I'm going to learn the things I HAVE to learn. Everything else is a bonus.
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    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      If I can PAY somebody to complete a task, to the same high standard, in half the time... I'm gonna do it. No question.
      I would agree, but that isn't how it works. I can have a website up and running quicker than making a phone call to an agent. I can make tweeks faster than writing an e-mail to get it done. I can try things on the fly, and get results instantly. The internet is moving at a fast pace, and relying on someone else for EVERY SINGLE change doesn't make sense.

      Don't get me wrong, outsourcing is important... but not everything is a big project that is worth drafting up a project outline for.
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
        Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

        I would agree, but that isn't how it works. I can have a website up and running quicker than making a phone call to an agent. I can make tweeks faster than writing an e-mail to get it done. I can try things on the fly, and get results instantly. The internet is moving at a fast pace, and relying on someone else for EVERY SINGLE change doesn't make sense.

        Don't get me wrong, outsourcing is important... but not everything is a big project that is worth drafting up a project outline for.

        Just pay people small retainers to do small tasks as when are needed, look i said i wasnt going to get into this but looks like I have

        Here's what i cant do

        cant write html
        cant write php
        cant design a jpg or a ghif to save my life
        dont understand css it gives me spots in front of my eye's

        somethings i can do after a fashion

        I can write adcopy (but very badly)
        I can install my own software (but always have to have someone to fix it)

        I can add a new domain to one of my servers, (but my tech team wont give me the passwords incase i screw something else up)

        Finally here is something I am really good at

        I can create mind maps of the sales process and make money

        I can write up on my whiteboard changes i need to the process

        the only thing anyone really needs to learn is the sales process

        Because without that the other departments are just redundant useless information

        Robert

        PS:
        The reason most people fail in IM is becuase they listen to your argument and spend years scraping their knuckles along the floor trying to learn the mechanics of making money instead of the science of making money
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        • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
          Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

          The reason most people fail in IM is becuase they listen to your argument and spend years scraping their knuckles along the floor trying to learn the mechanics of making money instead of the science of making money
          This right here is the quote of the week in my book.

          Listen, people....

          Anybody who is seriously considering what is said in the OP.. needs to unlearn all that $37 e-book bull**** and start to focus on this stuff.

          Be a businessman/woman... not an employee.

          It's not often you'll find me agreeing with Robert Puddy... But on this one.. he's spot on.

          Peace

          Jay
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          • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
            Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

            Anybody who is seriously considering what is said in the OP.. needs to unlearn all that $37 e-book bull**** and start to focus on this stuff.
            It seems you are trying to make this personal. I'm not exactly sure why.

            Making money online is NOT a science... it is an art. Having the ability to test and try random ideas on the fly is what builds the experience. The experience to know what to do in new and unique situations. For that reason, I believe it is best to have the ability to make changes on your own. This encourages rapid testing, so every new idea doesn't get delayed by an outsourcing process.

            Following cookie-cutter strategies to make money is a short-term solution, and will fail when the game changes. It's the difference between knowledge and wisdom... and the difference between playing by the rules and truly understanding the game.
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            • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
              Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

              It seems you are trying to make this personal. I'm not exactly sure why.
              Rick, we are having a discussion on a forum... nothing personal here

              We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest.

              Your crusade to be "right" on this issue... outreaches my intention to share my experience in this area of business.

              My thoughts on your post are back on page 1 here: My Thoughts

              Have a great day

              Peace

              Jay
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            • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
              Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

              It seems you are trying to make this personal. I'm not exactly sure why.

              Making money online is NOT a science... it is an art. Having the ability to test and try random ideas on the fly is what builds the experience. The experience to know what to do in new and unique situations. For that reason, I believe it is best to have the ability to make changes on your own. This encourages rapid testing, so every new idea doesn't get delayed by an outsourcing process.

              Following cookie-cutter strategies to make money is a short-term solution, and will fail when the game changes. It's the difference between knowledge and wisdom... and the difference between playing by the rules and truly understanding the game.
              jesus you pressed my hot button...

              WRONG AGAIN...

              the game never changes. the science of making money is always the same.

              Only the mechanics of making money changes and those are worker bee tasks i can get others to do

              And that my friend is the true secret to truly understanding the game

              If google changes their algorithm... that doesnt change my business model
              that just means the mechanics have to change the way they work (the tech guy I pay has to learn something new not me)
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              • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
                Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                the game never changes. the science of making money is always the same.

                Only the mechanics of making money changes and those are worker bee tasks i can get others to do

                And that my friend is the true secret to truly understanding the game

                If google changes their algorithm... that doesnt change my business model
                that just means the mechanics have to change the way they work (the tech guy I pay has to learn something new not me)
                Clearly you've never dealt with a major industry shift or an macro evolution of your industry. A lot of people in the music label industry take that approach and fail. The auto industry did the same. The television industry is about to get hit with the same stick... YouTube killed other industries as well.

                Not everything can be solved by calling up a contractor and telling them to read an updated manual.

                The principles of making money (e.g. providing remarkable value to your audience) don't change, but the way that gets applied is always evolving. Not just "worker bee" changes, but strategic shifts where you need to change the way things are done on a bigger level.
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                • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
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                  • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
                    Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

                    You are talking about learning every small detail of every part of your business and mastering it before you go and make money.
                    Wrong, please read the OP. I'm not saying to learn everything. I said it's important for beginners to understand the basics, so they can take action. This is the 21st century, people that do business online should know how to create and maintain a basic website. It's like reading and writing IMO.

                    Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

                    What you are talking about is completely different. The music industry is not following the formula, are they?

                    The need is for easy, downloadable music that works well on computers, ipods, mp3 players, etc.
                    Most people make this mistake... of over-simplifying the situation. The industry has massive businesses built around a different platform. You can't just fire everyone overnight, and shift to a new strategy. That is where the "art" comes in... having the ability to shift strategies without killing the business in the process. It's easy to say "they should just do this", it's another thing to actually do it... and make it all work.

                    Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

                    Finally, there are tons of ways to make money online that doesn't require any sort of design work at all. A simple example is article marketing with direct linking. Find a few popular article sites that allow it and one could easily start making a couple hundred bucks a month. From that, outsource and grow. Simple.
                    Sites that allow it? A couple hundred bucks? Then just scale and outsource? I don't even know what to say to that. Who builds such a low-margin business... adds in middle men... all on top of a platform that can change at a moments notice (without your control)?
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      • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
        Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

        I would agree, but that isn't how it works.
        Yes it is. Tried and tested.. I don't need you to tell me it doesn't work like that, because experience tells me that in fact, it works very well like that
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        • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
          Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

          Yes it is. Tried and tested.. I don't need you to tell me it doesn't work like that, because experience tells me that in fact, it works very well like that
          You can outsource a minor change and have it live in less than 5 seconds, or get a major website glitch fixed by someone else in a minute or two?

          This stuff doesn't work for people that are new to IM, or are just getting started. I honestly don't understand this idea that "knowing less" is best. You can outsource it all... but then when it really comes down to it, that strategy lacks the flexibility to solve new and unique issues.
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          • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
            Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

            You can outsource a minor change and have it live in less than 5 seconds, or get a major website glitch fixed by someone else in a minute or two?
            When I need work done... I get it done, most always by the end of the day.

            There's not a minor change or major website glitch that I need fixing so badly that I have to do it right away on a regular day.

            At the times when I need some serious work brains for the technical stuff around my business, I have them sat at the desk across from me

            Like I said earlier... I do know the technical side of what I do.. in depth. WordPress, HTML, .php and much more besides. But to say this knowledge is critical to anyone's long term success... is wrong.

            Peace

            Jay
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            • Profile picture of the author statelizard
              My personal opinion is that if you're a marketer, you don't have to know web development if you're willing to outsource it. It's the same principle as any other business.

              For example, I used to work as a toxicologist. I didn't own the business, my job was to conduct toxicology testing and drug development. Things in this industry sometimes change as fast as things on the internet. It was my job to be quick, adaptable, and up to date on the most current methods at my disposal. I was getting paid a salary to do such.

              The owner of the company had no idea how to do such things, and he didn't need to. It was his job to create the vision for the company, have the final say in the financial affairs, and make sure that the business was profitable.

              If marketers are willing to outsource the building of their sites, then their job is picking the right promotions and driving the traffic.

              I agree that it's a good idea to have a working knowledge of how to fix something if it goes wrong, but if you're willing to outsource then it's about as vital as a pen knowing how to do a sheet of papers job.
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              • Profile picture of the author promee
                Originally Posted by statelizard View Post

                My personal opinion is that if you're a marketer, you don't have to know web development if you're willing to outsource it. It's the same principle as any other business.

                For example, I used to work as a toxicologist. I didn't own the business, my job was to conduct toxicology testing and drug development. Things in this industry sometimes change as fast as things on the internet. It was my job to be quick, adaptable, and up to date on the most current methods at my disposal. I was getting paid a salary to do such.

                The owner of the company had no idea how to do such things, and he didn't need to. It was his job to create the vision for the company, have the final say in the financial affairs, and make sure that the business was profitable.

                If marketers are willing to outsource the building of their sites, then their job is picking the right promotions and driving the traffic.

                I agree that it's a good idea to have a working knowledge of how to fix something if it goes wrong, but if you're willing to outsource then it's about as vital as a pen knowing how to do a sheet of papers job.
                wow good idea
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            • Profile picture of the author John Durham
              I used to manage a staff of 10 web designers for a guy who could barely find "google" or check his email...

              The designers were constantly talking about his and my ignorance... but he wrote them a check every week, and I handed it to them along with the following weeks work orders...and they gladly accepted, and none of them quit their job...

              Another friend of mine created the #1 wallpaper border manufacturing plant in the world, and couldn't even run a machine... he spent 1 million dollars to have a machine built, which produced 100 million dollars worth of product... and he didnt even know how to turn it on...

              Just food for thought.
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            • Profile picture of the author Gabriel Medeiros
              I've spend good money learning webmaster skills and I think it was worth the money. Now I can make my own changes and take care of the details.

              Outsourcing is a good thing... when you have money and time to try. I would say it is a second stage of you IM carrier. It's like being promoted.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve L
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      Whilst I don't lack any understanding of basic web development...

      I think your assertion that "Learning how to create, publish, and maintain your own website is absolutely critical to long-term success", is ludicrous... to say the least.

      Do you really think it is vitally important that a businessman performs these tasks?...

      If I can PAY somebody to complete a task, to the same high standard, in half the time... I'm gonna do it. No question.

      No matter how much you rant, rave and posture on this issue, it simply isn't the way I have come to know this business.

      I can create, publish and maintain my own websites...and I still do. But there are also other sites which are being created, published and maintained for me this very minute... by somebody else. And they are earning me revenue that I wouldn't have the time to earn if I did it all myself.

      I can fully appreciate and understand why somebody would want to remove themselves from this area of their business, and completely outsource it.

      In fact, it makes even more sense to me... the more I think about it.

      But having said all that... what does it matter to you?... if they are making it work for them without this great :cough: "knowledge"?...

      Peace

      Jay
      I'm with Jay on this! If you know how to run a successful info publishing business, you'd be wasting your time doing all the technical stuff yourself when you could be writing new ebooks, writing new sales copy, researching new markets etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paleochora
    Having started in IM with some basic knowledge of getting a site up and with no investment budget, I had to learn how to do stuff as outsourcing was not an option.

    Although I am no coder and really do not want to spend years of hard study to become one, I take great pride in many of the things that I have actually achieved and learned and have enjoyed the process enormously.

    Having said that, I can appreciate the position taken by Rob in an earler post. Would things have been different for me if I had started my IM journey with $50k seed money? Maybe...but maybe I would always have been a little too dependant on others too.
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  • Profile picture of the author David4254
    I am one of those "self taught" IMers who lacks tech skills. I have done my research but can't find an answer for this.

    I want to make a post and have that post as my default home page. The post url should be "domain.com/" not the typical "domain.com/blog-post-title". I think this involves creating a post and making a static page my home page. I'm not sure or smart enough to figure this out.

    A good example of this working is at hydrolyzereview.com. The first post "Hydrolyze Review" is the home page. How do I do that?
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by David4254 View Post

      I am one of those "self taught" IMers who lacks tech skills. I have done my research but can't find an answer for this.

      I want to make a post and have that post as my default home page. The post url should be "domain.com/" not the typical "domain.com/blog-post-title". I think this involves creating a post and making a static page my home page. I'm not sure or smart enough to figure this out.

      A good example of this working is at hydrolyzereview.com. The first post "Hydrolyze Review" is the home page. How do I do that?
      If you have the post ready... PM me with your WP login details.. and I'll do it for ya

      Peace

      Jay
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      • Profile picture of the author David4254
        Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

        If you have the post ready... PM me with your WP login details.. and I'll do it for ya

        Peace

        Jay
        Jay thanks. I had to send you a message via email because I don't have 50+ posts here. I really appreciate the help.

        David
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        • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
          Originally Posted by David4254 View Post

          Jay thanks. I had to send you a message via email because I don't have 50+ posts here. I really appreciate the help.

          David
          Done it for ya dude... Let me know if all is OK with the site

          Check your PM's...

          Peace

          Jay
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    ...on the other hand, if you know a little about web design it's easier to tell if someone is hosing you or trying to rip you off.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    I was going to spend a whole lot of time counter ranting the OP

    Decided to save my breath... As long as you know how to work a cell phone and can contact some one who can do it for you then your going to be better off than someone who spends an eternity trying to grasp things they were never meant to grasp.

    The biggest stumbling block in IM is the tech side, and you can sweep all the tech tasks up in a pile and hand those tasks to someone else to do.

    Stumbling blocks just got turned into a stepping stones

    Robert
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    I do develop all my stuff, both web development and graphic design BUT quite frankly, I'll be happy the day I outsource all the stuff.

    Wait and see
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  • Profile picture of the author madison_avenue
    I think the question could be put another way: Why are so many people with a high level of technical skill NOT succeeding in making big money in internet marketing? I think it's because the business side of internet marketing is HARDER than the technical side and the skill sets are not connected, being good at the technical side doesn't mean you will necessarily be good at the business side (although of course you still could be).

    Succeeding in the business requires a much rarer skill set: To achieve competence in it requires total focus, an understanding of risk assessmnet, acumen, time management , copywriting ability , project management, creativity, negotiation, perseverance in the face of adversity, SEO skills, to name but a few there hundreds of others.
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  • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
    It's pretty clear that the vast majority of people replying to this thread didn't read the last two paragraphs of my OP at all... they sum up the point I was trying to make, and the replies here don't address it at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    I don't think the "big" IMers are the ones working hard, doing design or coding, really.

    The big guys do the MARKETING and let others do product creation and design.

    By the way, rick, i am one of those people who does everything usually...but i simply think tedious coding and sitting on some HTML code for months is bad ROI. While you are sitting and fiddling code..others SELL.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dstyles
      I think both are valid points. I started out years ago doing webhosting and website design using dreamweaver and templates. It has been a long time since I have done this type of work, I currently outsource my webmaster duties. I have a full time VA that I found and hired on my own without going through a company and after careful consideration, (hiring someone that didn't work out) , decided to have the graphics work done on a per project basis. (my first sites will be up by the end of the month)

      . I have decide that I will be responsible for the planning the course of my business, marketing, and content of my sites. (if you master these things you could actually team up with some one with the other skills and help each other or barter your services)

      If I wanted to I could get back into webdesign but I'd rather use my time coming up with ways to make money. But what I do is research and design my BUSINESS so that it runs like a McDonalds. If the fry cook quits I can replace them within a couple of days and take over while they are gone. You HAVE to make your business a system that can function without you. (Read the E-Myth and similar works when you have a chance).

      If you think of your business like this you won't have to worry about being at the mercy of anyone. Build into your Business the ability to take over (learn the job) and\or replace "employees" quickly if and when needed. Just my 2cents :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
    I firmly believe that everyone should learn a website platform or CMS. Whether that be Joomla, Wordpress, Drupal, whatever...

    Learn the thing inside and out. In the long run, this will open up so many more opportunities, save you money, and you will not have to depend on others if you don't want to.

    With all of the plugins available for popular blogging and CMS platforms, WYSIWYG editors, free tutorials on YouTube, and specialized support forums, even a "technically challenged" person can put together a decent looking site in a short amount of time.
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    • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
      Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post

      Rick - You are 100% correct. I firmly believe that everyone should learn a website platform or CMS. Whether that be Joomla, Wordpress, Drupal, whatever...
      My first site ever is actually a DRUPAL site. And by the way, this is the last drupal site i ever made

      We could as well argue that everyone who wants to run Windows should be familiar with Linux <---

      EFFECTIVENESS <----- Do the things which yield ROI and dont dabble weeks/months in things which wont. This is a trap MANY are in.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Rick, Henry Ford didn't know how to machine an engine block. In fact, Ford was considered to be sort of uneducated.
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    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Rick, Henry Ford didn't know how to machine an engine block. In fact, Ford was considered to be sort of uneducated.
      There are always exceptions . That said, I think it's safe to say most beginners in the IM market are not as brilliant as Henry Ford.
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    • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Rick, Henry Ford didn't know how to machine an engine block. In fact, Ford was considered to be sort of uneducated.
      You make it seem like Henry Ford was some kind of "Forrest Gump" idiot, which isn't true.

      Also, Ford did have a good understanding of machines. It's not as if he was the type of guy who never got his hands dirty.

      Henry Ford was quite adept at working on machinery - watches, sawmills, steam engines, gasoline engines - according to his Wikipedia bio.

      As far as Ford being uneducated, I'll assume you mean formal education. It seems he was pretty well educated to me.
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

        You make it seem like Henry Ford was some kind of "Forrest Gump" idiot, which isn't true.

        Also, Ford did have a good understanding of machines. It's not as if he was the type of guy who never got his hands dirty.

        Henry Ford was quite adept at working on machinery - watches, sawmills, steam engines, gasoline engines - according to his Wikipedia bio.

        As far as Ford being 'uneducated', I'll assume you mean formal education. It seems he was pretty well educated to me.
        It's well established that Henry Ford didn't have much of a formal education.

        Henry Ford Is Dead at 83 in Dearborn

        Sued Chicago Tribune


        In 1919 Mr. Ford sued The Chicago Tribune for $1,000,000 on the ground of libel, because of an editorial which was headed "Ford Is an Anarchist," and which accused him of having been pro- German during the war. The jury awarded him a verdict of 6 cents, but only after counsel for the defense had subjected him to a pitiless cross-examination which revealed him to be almost without knowledge of subjects outside his own field.
        That being said, I used him as an example of someone that managed to create a global empire without the hard knowledge of business, finance, theory, etc... He knew how to create a solid team and keep them motivated. This is discussed at length by Napoleon Hill in Think and Grow Rich.

        This was to illustrate the point I was making to the original poster that one doesn't require the specialized technical knowledge of every aspect of a business system in order to become a success.
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  • Profile picture of the author Barbara Gathany
    Rick,

    I'm one of those people and I agree with you whole heartedly. The biggest problem for me was trying to find someone to train me in doing the "technical stuff". Even though I wanted to outsource a lot of the "technical stuff eventually, I knew iI needed how to do it myself and also didn't have the money to outsource. I tried to do self study , but wasn't really successful. I had no idea how to set up a squeeze page or a download site. HTML was Greek and php was Roman. Even Wordpress, which was supposedly so easy, floored me. So I jumped from one thing to another hoping that someone along the way would finally teach me how to do the basics while I was learning IM techniques like article marketing, adsense, CPA, etc, etc. The problem was that without knowing those technical basics, it's hard to do anything the correctly

    I wishsomeone whould put together a course that would show how to do all the basic technical tech stuff...both beginner and advanced...with videos so that I could set up a website in html with Kompozer or a blog with Wordpress or a squeeze page or whatever.

    Believe me, I would give my right arm to have a course like that, and I think many others would as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    IMO, The outsourcing mentality is highly correlated with the degree to which we as a society devalue and disrespect those who do actual work in preference for those who "get rich" and "are successful".

    It's the MBA mentality. Why should I understand something that I can outsource? Why should I learn to do something that I can outsource?

    Well, on the one hand, you should absolutely be EFFECTIVE in how you manage your business, your resources, and your time. If you can be EFFECTIVE managing something without knowledge and skill to do it yourself, then more power to you. But most people aren't REALLY effective at managing outsourcing. The quality sucks. It takes forever. And tons of details fall through the cracks. They aren't really effective at outsourcing... they just never experienced anything better so they don't even know what they're missing. You can't explain why a steak is better to someone that's only ever eaten at McDonald's. You can't even explain why a bistro burger is better.

    But on the other hand, even if you are effective at outsourcing the details, life is not just about the money. To understand the flaw in the MBA mentality, one need only watch Srikumar Rao's youtube video from his presentation at Google. You have to enjoy the process, you have to find satisfaction in the doing, lest you'll get the money but not the happiness.

    My closing anecdote: My ex g/f (of a few years ago) was the top of the class-working on wall street-doing LBO's-going to harvard-mba type.

    One day she was explaining outsourcing to me like she had just invented it... on and on about how you can get the "same" stuff for way cheaper (as if there were no tradeoffs involved). After a while it hit me and I interrupted her.... "WAIT WAIT WAIT! I got it! We're going to be rich! OK, listen carefully, here's what we do: We outsource the MBA's! We can get bad management at half the price!"

    I think we talked once on the phone after that. She didn't even have to call me to break up with me, we both just knew. lol

    Moral of the story: People are a commodity to be exploited, traded, fungibly interchanged. Everyone except for you, that is.
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    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
      Originally Posted by agc View Post

      IMO, The outsourcing mentality is highly correlated with the degree to which we as a society devalue and disrespect those who do actual work in preference for those "get rich".

      It's the MBA mentality. Why should I understand something that I can outsource? Why should I learn to do something that I can outsource?

      Well, on the one hand, you should absolutely be EFFECTIVE in how you manage your business, your resources, and your time. If you can be EFFECTIVE managing something without knowledge and skill to do it yourself, then more power to you. But most people aren't REALLY effective at managing outsourcing. The quality sucks. It takes forever. And tons of details fall through the cracks. They aren't really effective at outsourcing... they just never experienced anything better so they don't even know what they're missing. You can't explain why a steak is better to someone that's only ever eaten at McDonald's. You can't even explain why a bistro burger is better.

      But on the other hand, even if you are effective at outsourcing the details, life is not just about the money. To understand the flaw in the MBA mentality, one need only watch Srikumar Rao's youtube video from his presentation at Google. You have to enjoy the process, you have to find satisfaction in the doing, lest you'll get the money but not the happiness.
      QFT. My favorite post on WF.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ernie Mitchell
      Originally Posted by agc View Post

      IMO, The outsourcing mentality is highly correlated with the degree to which we as a society devalue and disrespect those who do actual work in preference for those who "get rich" and "are successful".

      It's the MBA mentality. Why should I understand something that I can outsource? Why should I learn to do something that I can outsource?

      Well, on the one hand, you should absolutely be EFFECTIVE in how you manage your business, your resources, and your time. If you can be EFFECTIVE managing something without knowledge and skill to do it yourself, then more power to you. But most people aren't REALLY effective at managing outsourcing. The quality sucks. It takes forever. And tons of details fall through the cracks. They aren't really effective at outsourcing... they just never experienced anything better so they don't even know what they're missing. You can't explain why a steak is better to someone that's only ever eaten at McDonald's. You can't even explain why a bistro burger is better.

      But on the other hand, even if you are effective at outsourcing the details, life is not just about the money. To understand the flaw in the MBA mentality, one need only watch Srikumar Rao's youtube video from his presentation at Google. You have to enjoy the process, you have to find satisfaction in the doing, lest you'll get the money but not the happiness.

      My closing anecdote: My ex g/f (of a few years ago) was the top of the class-working on wall street-doing LBO's-going to harvard-mba type.

      One day she was explaining outsourcing to me like she had just invented it... on and on about how you can get the "same" stuff for way cheaper (as if there were no tradeoffs involved). After a while it hit me and I interrupted her.... "WAIT WAIT WAIT! I got it! We're going to be rich! OK, listen carefully, here's what we do: We outsource the MBA's! We can get bad management at half the price!"

      I think we talked once on the phone after that. She didn't even have to call me to break up with me, we both just knew. lol

      Moral of the story: People are a commodity to be exploited, traded, fungibly interchanged. Everyone except for you, that is.

      There are Elves and there are Entrepreneurs.

      Entrepreneurs own Elves
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  • Profile picture of the author numba8
    I maintain my Lp's, websites etc. for the most part by myself. But I am all about outsourcing design. If I could do it myself, I would. I am not a designer and don't pretend to be. I don't think it's comparable to "typing" or "reading." A good design can make or break a campaign.

    But yes, I agree that a lot of IM's should get a little more development savvy.
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  • Profile picture of the author debra
    The same thing bugs me a lot at times. I think this is why it is hard to charge/collect what is fair pay for what is done for the client because they do not understand what comes with the dev territory or the frustration at times...usually when technology does like you for the day. lol

    I've had clients ask for the near impossible (time wise) and then devalue the effort because they feel it should have been easy for a techie person.

    The fact is, in my opnion, that these people are to impatient and are spoiled to the instant gradification mentality. For these ppl that have a "do it for me" mind set...all I can say is "Take a Viagra" cuz you just don't "do it for me" either.

    I do believe in outsourcing, you just need to understand what your outsourcing. Not that you have to learn to code...just have a clear understanding of what you need to achieve your outcome. Stop relying on us to formulate that perfect serum for you. When I find one...I ain't tellin or giving it totally away to you.

    Another problem I see is "trust". A lot of ppl are trusting that you can code thier dream come true(like we have esp) then screaming foul play when they find out that it will require ongoing effort to maintain what you buildt for them or they just assume that you are going to do that for them too....forever. If not...then you must be a scammer.

    Now...see...Rick...you got me on a rant too!

    Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

    Ok, so this is something that has been bugging me for a while. Why is it that so many IMers don't bother to learn basic web design? The common excuse seems to be the ol' "I should outsource this" mentality, but I can't imagine someone outsourcing the ability to "type" or "read".

    It's the 21st century, and this industry is built around the Internet. Learning how to create, publish, and maintain your own website is absolutely critical to long-term success.

    Yes, you should ultimately outsource repetitive work, but you need the ability to do your own stuff when getting started. Later this information benefits you when it's time to outsource (knowing what can and can't be done, and how much time something should take).

    I strongly recommend that people focus on web design and basic copywriting before buying some $1000 course on how to "make money online".

    /rant

    EDIT: It's pretty clear the vast majority of people replying to this thread ignored the last two paragraphs of this post...
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    • Profile picture of the author remotedb
      Personally, I'm kinda glad so many don't have web skills. It keeps the competition weak, besides that it creates opportunities for web developers such as myself form time to time. I'm happy to service the community of IMers that need help with web design or other skills.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Opinion vs. opinion. You've each found a way that works for you. I doubt if either of you are going to sway the other to your way of thinking. Remember what I said earlier? It's a personal choice, and...

    ...whatever works for YOU, right?
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    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Opinion vs. opinion. You've each found a way that works for you. I doubt if either of you are going to sway the other to their way of thinking. Remember what I said earlier?

      Whatever works for YOU, right?
      I agree with you, and am slowly figuring that out.

      Meanwhile, I enjoy a good debate and like the banter, so I'm a little torn on wither it should continue .
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

        I agree with you, and am slowly figuring that out.

        Meanwhile, I enjoy a good debate and like the banter, so I'm a little torn on wither it should continue .

        If you channeled that much passion into your business in an afternoon, who knows what you might have done today in sales.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

        I agree with you, and am slowly figuring that out.

        Meanwhile, I enjoy a good debate and like the banter, so I'm a little torn on wither it should continue .
        Judging from your posts it isn't the banter you enjoy.

        It looks like you are more interested in being correct and everyone else wrong.

        That is why you are making statements about Robert's spelling instead of staying on topic.
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        • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          Judging from your posts it isn't the banter you enjoy.

          It looks like you are more interested in being correct and everyone else wrong.

          That is why you are making statements about Robert's spelling instead of staying on topic.
          That argument would hold water if I didn't immediately return to the topic in the exact same post, going into great detail about my perspective. Now, as far as going off topic, thanks for the valuable post.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

            That argument would hold water if I didn't immediately return to the topic in the exact same post, going into great detail about my perspective. .
            Not at all. Wrong again!

            You are making little jabs at things that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Like Robert's spelling.

            Maybe it is because he has a better point and you can't really debate his views.

            That would be the most common reason why you have to resort to making snide comments about his spelling.

            I will be looking forward to your wso since you seem to be trying way to hard to sound like you know what you are talking about.
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            • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              Not at all. Wrong again!
              Wait, are you correcting me about MY THOUGHT PROCESS? It takes quite a few assumptions to think you know what I am thinking better than I do.

              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              Maybe it is because he has a better point and you can't really debate his views.
              Um, nope. Again, that is why I immediately went back to the topic. Why is this so hard to understand?

              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              That would be the most common reason why you have to resort to making snide comments about his spelling.
              Actually, that would be the most common reason YOU might do that. Keep in mind this is YOUR perspective of what I am doing, not mine. Your analysis is self analysis. Again, the foundation of what you are suggesting holds no water, as I continue to debate any points about this.

              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              I will be looking forward to your wso since you seem to be trying way to hard to sound like you know what you are talking about.
              For someone that claims to be interested in learning new things, you sure have a closed mind.

              Listen, your posts are going WAY off topic here. If you want to continue this debate... PM me or start a new thread somewhere. This is getting silly.
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                Wait, are you correcting me about MY THOUGHT PROCESS? It takes quite a few assumptions to think you know what I am thinking better than I do.



                Um, nope. Again, that is why I immediately went back to the topic. Why is this so hard to understand?



                Actually, that would be the most common reason YOU might do that. Keep in mind this is YOUR perspective of what I am doing, not mine. Your analysis is self analysis. Again, the foundation of what you are suggesting holds no water, as I continue to debate any points about this.



                For someone that claims to be interested in learning new things, you sure have a closed mind. BTW, my book is free... you don't have to pay anything for it.
                Where did I say I was interested in learning new things?

                I have a closed mind? Thanks for letting me know.

                I understand that you can make the sweeping statements unlike the rest of us.

                Do you tell people before they opt in for your free book that they need to learn html, php, installing scripts and so on... before they will be able to make money online?

                I didn't see that disclaimer on your squeeze page for tech skills.

                Normally people come on really strong in order to try and look like an expert. So far you are doing a splendid job of coming on strong.
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                • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                  Do you tell people before they opt in for your free book that they need to learn html, php, installing scripts and so on... before they will be able to make money online?

                  I didn't see that disclaimer on your squeeze page for tech skills.
                  Yeah, it's right there next to the money back guarantee... . /scarcasm

                  Actually, I talk about that in the book, but go ahead and comment on it without looking.

                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                  Normally people come on really strong in order to try and look like an expert. So far you are doing a splendid job of coming on strong.
                  I'm starting to realize the issue here.

                  You are a classic forum troll. You will say and do anything to keep a topic of course, and it has nothing to do with the debate or the validity of either perspective. It's 100% about throwing a thread off topic. For that reason, I am adding you to my ignore list.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post


                    You are a classic forum troll. You will say and do anything to keep a topic of course, and it has nothing to do with the debate or the validity of either perspective. It's 100% about throwing a thread off topic. For that reason, I am adding you to my ignore list.
                    You hurt my e-feelings.

                    I made posts regarding tech skills which is what this thread is about. It was in between the other stuff just like what you did to Robert and his spelling issues.

                    Goose Gander Good.

                    Why not be more honest with people then. Instead of telling them after the opt in why not tell them before the opt in.

                    They may not want to learn html so why bother getting the free book.

                    I would just point them to Robert's opt in where he can teach them to do it without that knowledge.

                    It seems like you require them to know that stuff or you can't teach them.
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  • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
    This may all amount to a generational gap issue. Robert is serving an older audience, and I'm sure they absolutely love him for it (LFM looks interesting as well).

    On the other hand, I think the younger generation finds it easier to just "do it yourself" when it comes to basic web design. So, that is a more natural path for us.

    Robert: I appreciate you taking the time to disagree with me. I enjoyed the debate, and learned a few things.
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  • Profile picture of the author Phillips Pierce
    You don't NEED to know any web design to be successful online.

    Sure it helps a helluva lot, but is it necessary in a day and age with wordpress, xsite pro and all these other visual designers? No.

    I didn't know squat about web design when I got started. I learned some basic HTML along the way but certainly not enough to be able to design a website from the ground up. Did that stop me from making money? NO, because I have taken advantage of a plethora of other options out there such as WP and XsitePro.

    Having web design skills is NOT a high leverage activity! It's not necessary for being successful online. Focus on learning the high leverage things that directly impacts the income you make!

    People already suffer enough from information overload, analysis by paralysis etc. They don't need another thing to worry and procrastinate over and waste time learning. If anything people need to learn less and do more! Web design skills will not make or break you. There are a ton of web designers out there who aren't making any money online. There's even more people out there with no design skills making a killing.

    Just focus on MAKING money and focus on the things that have a direct impact on your bottom line. Web design isn't one of them. Install wordpress or buy Xsite pro and you're set. Move on!
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Could someone please pass the popcorn?
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    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Could someone please pass the popcorn?
      Too late. The off-topic fun is over... I put him on my ignore list. Now I know how he got so many posts... wow.

      Now I wish I just took your advice. Lesson learned .

      Back to the topic now...
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Could someone please pass the popcorn?
      Do trolls eat popcorn?

      If so then pass it my way.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Do trolls eat popcorn?

        If so then pass it my way.
        Um...wouldn't you be the one to know the answer to that?
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          Um...wouldn't you be the one to know the answer to that?
          Don't quote me or my friend will see. hehe
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          • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
            Originally Posted by Anonymous Troll
            Don't quote me or my friend will see. hehe
            Oops! What was I thinking?
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          I have a good reason why some IMers lack basic web development skills....

          Because we don't want to know them

          I've been doing this for 2 years and still can't even use FTP with ease. I'm a marketer, not a web developer, a graphic designer, or any of that stuff.

          Networks and businesses pay me for Leads and sales - PERIOD. They don't pay me extra if I build the site myself....

          Why would I spend a couple hours doing it myself, when I could give someone a couple hundred and do something else? Surely, I put more money in the bank generating traffic than I would learning and utilizing some of the skills you think I should know.

          Not all of us want to be able to do it, and a good percentage of us, don't care to do it, even if we do know how.
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  • Profile picture of the author IvanaB
    I think it's good to have some basic knowledge so you don't get ripped off by outsourcers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by IvanaB View Post

      I think it's good to have some basic knowledge so you don't get ripped off by outsourcers.
      Sooner or later you will have to work out how to deal with outsourcers, contractors or employees if you start doing any type of volume.
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    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
      Originally Posted by IvanaB View Post

      I think it's good to have some basic knowledge so you don't get ripped off by outsourcers.
      That reminds me of something...

      I remember hearing about someone that outsourced a rather large project overseas. He got updates for a few months, but never actually saw the end product (clearly, his mistake). Ended up getting screwed, as they were never really working on it. I'm sure this happens more often that we'd like.

      Now, I'm not saying all outsourcing is like this (at all)... it can be done right. But your post just reminded me of that. It's important to manage outsourcing carefully... building a long term relationship with a company.

      I think it was Strategic Coach that taught me the difference between out-sourcing and out-tasking. Big difference.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nicky Papers
    Some people get really good in one area of "internet development". Most people are not jacks of all trades.

    People contract me to do things they are weak in. And I contract people to take care of things that I need help with.

    If you are a "jack of all trades" you're probably sub-par in many different areas. Knowing when to get help should be the trade to focus on.
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  • Profile picture of the author juanenjoyslife
    Rick totally agree with you. I think a lot of people are intimidated by basic web design because of the nature of how it works. When I started marketing a long time ago, I felt the same way. However, I now feel that without the ability to know how to at least do basic updates to your website(s), you are wasting precious dollars that could be going into your pocket or being spent on building your business in other areas. If you are interested in learning basic web design, I found a great website that I recommend to all of my students. Go to Google and do a search for free html video tutorial. You should find some great resources.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Pickstone
    It's a good point and being a web designer/developer myself i sometimes ask the same question...

    But in My Opinion Internet Marketers should spend their time on coming up with new idea's and marketing their products to the public/ split testing these sort of things instead of making a website look pretty and plugging it all together because i know it can be quite frustrating and time consuming. Outsourcing the web develpment process will cut hours off the time it'll take to comple it 100% and it also will cost next to nothing!

    As an original web designer turned IMER i have done the same..I can now focus on the more important tasks because i can see the opportunity there is in making money online.

    Take Care,
    Matt Pickstone
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

    Why is it that so many IMers don't bother to learn basic web design?
    Why is it that so many web designers don't bother to learn marketing?
    Signature
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    • Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      Why is it that so many web designers don't bother to learn marketing?
      Why doesn't Caliban cut his hair? These are the mysteries of life beyond our comprehension.
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    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      Why is it that so many web designers don't bother to learn marketing?
      Because marketing doesn't make web design easier... on the other hand, basic web design does make online marketing much easier (especially when you are just getting started and don't have a budget for outsourcing).
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

        Because marketing doesn't make web design easier
        Yes it does. How can you say it's not easier to get clients if you're skilled in marketing?
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        • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          Yes it does. How can you say it's not easier to get clients if you're skilled in marketing?
          I didn't say that... I said "web design" isn't any easier with marketing skill. Nothing about getting clients. Big difference.

          Now, having said that... I do agree that anybody that is in business for them self should have a basic understanding of marketing. It can be extremely valuable, and has an impact on many key decisions.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
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            • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              Then why is IM easier with web design skill?

              Consider my .357 Article Method. It doesn't have a web site. It exists exclusively as a PDF available through my WSO, which I promote in my signature here.

              How would web design skill make any of that easier?
              Aha, I love how you took the one paragraph that supports your point, and then ignored the rest... while it kind of killed that argument.

              Also, extra points for throwing in a shameless promo.

              Just because there are some paths to success that don't require web design doesn't mean it isn't an extremely valuable skill. There are likely paths that don't require the ability to read and write, but I would still recommend people learn those skills as well .
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                Just because there are some paths to success that don't require web design doesn't mean it isn't an extremely valuable skill.
                There are lots of extremely valuable skills people don't learn. I'll bet you lack a few of them yourself. Why don't you know them all? Surely it would be extremely valuable if you knew how to pilot an airplane, sew your own clothes, bore a cylinder head, skin a bear, build a log cabin, break dance, and any number of other things.

                But you probably know a bunch of stupid crap you learned instead, like the stats of some sports team, or the words to the macarena, or the birthdays of all the U.S. Presidents, or how to draw the 48 contiguous United States from memory. Why would anyone want to know that garbage? Wouldn't you be better off knowing one of those extremely valuable skills?

                You know what amazes me? There are a shocking number of web designers who do not know how to perform basic server administration, lack any understanding of programming, cannot construct anything beyond the most basic of abstract graphics, and are even unable to define a sensible backup policy for a website.

                All you have to do is go look at all the people who have built and sold a website, but have absolutely no idea how to deliver that website to the buyer.

                Now if you'll pardon me, I have a book to finish writing.
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                • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                  There are lots of extremely valuable skills people don't learn. I'll bet you lack a few of them yourself. Why don't you know them all? Surely it would be extremely valuable if you knew how to pilot an airplane, sew your own clothes, bore a cylinder head, skin a bear, build a log cabin, break dance, and any number of other things.
                  Your examples are far from applicable (shockingly far). None of those things overlap or have value for someone doing Internet marketing. Surely you can see the difference between listing complimentary skills vs. spouting off completely random things that have no significant shared value.

                  This thread has nothing to do with "learn everything there is to learn", and it has everything to do with "learn a skill that simplifies what you are already doing".

                  Have fun writing your book... quick tip, I find it easier to write while skinning a bear on a flight to my hand-built log cabin .
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                  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                    Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                    Your examples are far from applicable (shockingly far). None of those things overlap or have value for someone doing Internet marketing. Surely you can see the difference between listing complimentary skills vs. spouting off completely random things that have no significant shared value.

                    This thread has nothing to do with "learn everything there is to learn", and it has everything to do with "learn a skill that simplifies what you are already doing".

                    Have fun writing your book... quick tip, I find it easier to write while skinning a bear on a flight to my hand-built log cabin .

                    But it doesn't necessarily simplify marketing. Marketing and having the ability to do basic web design are mutually exclusive activities. Web dev is a tactical level function. Properly executed, marketing (as a business function) is wholly strategic level. Building an internet marketing system is a far different skill that encompasses far more than web html. Knowing how to code has no bearing on the ability to develop or the success level of a marketing system.

                    The fact remains that many extremely successful internet marketers are no less efficient, no less effective, no less capable for not having ever coded a lick of script in their life.

                    I'll go so far as to even bet money on this: a good marketer that can't code will earn more money than a world class web designer that can't market -- 100% of the time.

                    Sorry I think you sort of got boxed in with a narrow viewpoint, and are simply debating to save face.
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                    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
                      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                      But it doesn't necessarily simplify marketing. Marketing and having the ability to do basic web design are mutually exclusive activities. Web dev is a tactical level function. Properly executed, marketing (as a business function) is wholly strategic level. Building an internet marketing system is a far different skill that encompasses far more than web html. Knowing how to code has no bearing on the ability to develop or the success level of a marketing system.
                      It does simplify it... in that you can test stuff on your own, at will, without waiting for someone else (with zero delay, and zero expense, which is HUGE when getting started with no budget). How is that not a VERY CLEAR benefit?

                      Is it not easier to do direct marketing if you have the ability to write or type? Do you really want to rely on someone else right from day one, or spend money that you don't have when getting started?

                      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                      The fact remains that many extremely successful internet marketers are no less efficient, no less effective, no less capable for not having ever coded a lick of script in their life.
                      Stating an opinion as a fact doesn't help . See my point above for why I disagree with this "opinion".

                      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                      I'll go so far as to even bet money on this: a good marketer that can't code will earn more money than a world class web designer that can't market -- 100% of the time.
                      How is that even applicable? That's like saying a race car driver that can't repair an engine will drive faster than a mechanic that can't drive. Who cares. Doesn't mean it isn't beneficial to have both abilities.

                      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                      Sorry I think you sort of got boxed in with a narrow viewpoint, and are simply debating to save face.
                      Meh, think what you want... I am 100% certain that I would not have reached the level of success that I have without being able to test stuff on the fly, get started with no budget, or have the confidence that I have control over my own destiny.
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                      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                        Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                        It does simplify it... in that you can test stuff on your own, at will, without waiting for someone else (with zero delay, and zero expense, which is HUGE when getting started with no budget). How is that not a VERY CLEAR benefit?

                        Is it not easier to do direct marketing if you have the ability to write or type? Do you really want to rely on someone else right from day one, or spend money that you don't have when getting started?
                        No it's not easier. It doesn't simplify it. Your statements demonstrate that you're looking at the world with a tactical-level viewpoint - not a strategic-level viewpoint. Strategic-level entrepreneurs don't do $20/hour jobs. They do $1000+/hour jobs. If you're an entrepreneur, you maximize the return on your assets - your most valuable, limited asset of all being your time. When you spend it doing tactical level things - even doing tactical-level things much faster and more efficient - it's still a $20/hour tactical-level task, thus reducing one's ability to build a business system outside of their own direct efforts. If that's not the goal, then you're a craftsperson, not a businessperson, and should probably explore some Michael Gerber (E-Myth) to understand the difference.

                        Any truly successful businessperson knows that to become successful, they must work ON their business, not IN their business. Maybe a cursory study a little Adam Smith and the division of labor theory would be helpful. Being a man of such great success, I am a little surprised that you're arguing against this fundamental precept of capitalist theory.

                        Stating an opinion as a fact doesn't help . See my point above for why I disagree with this "opinion".
                        I believe that some other successful (at least $7 figure annual earners) have responded in your thread here, actually making my original statement a fact, not an opinion.


                        How is that even applicable? That's like saying a race car driver that can't repair an engine will drive faster than a mechanic that can't drive. Who cares. Doesn't mean it isn't beneficial to have both abilities.
                        Exactly. A great marketer that can't code HTML will earn more money than a coder that can't market. Yes, you understand this concept.

                        Ordered pair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                        It's quite applicable. Not only am I saying that your logic is flawed, I am providing you with the mathematical logic theory that proves it to be so.


                        Meh, think what you want... I am 100% certain that I would not have reached the level of success that I have without being able to test stuff on the fly, get started with no budget, or have the confidence that I have control over my own destiny.
                        It's apparent from your expressions that you aren't really thinking strategically as a business owner, rather you're thinking like an employee trying to be a business owner. This is the classic craftsperson viewpoint that Michael Gerber discusses at length. I bet that you found some success in a past life as a provider of services, thus contributing to your technical bias and your current view of your business. You worked IN whatever business that you were involved with. I recognize those attributes in you because I was once like you. I gravitated towards the creative side, working on the projects after I sold them instead of handing them off the the system and selling more projects to feed the system. My advantage was that I intimately knew the technical side, so I could talk with confidence and sell like a champ. The disadvantage was that I intimately knew the technical side, so I constantly got sucked into the tactical level of doing the job, and fighting against building the business independent of my own efforts.

                        If you pride yourself in your mastery of a tactical-level skill worth $20/hour over the skills of a strategic level business management professional that understands how to maximize their single most valuable resource, time, then it becomes a rudimentary exercise in logic to approximate your real success.

                        Don't think so? Here's how:

                        Let's pretend that you're as insane as I am, and work the same 60 hours a week that I do. Let's say that through my division of labor, my organization produces approximately $1,217.95 per working hour that I am working strategically to manage my business systems. It's a full-time job managing those systems, monitoring cash flow, monitoring projects, monitoring resources, monitoring sales, making decisions, developing strategic partnerships, establishing alliances, meeting with other decisionmakers, etc...

                        Here's where it becomes quantum though. Because I focus on the strategic level, my business can expand exponentially because I simply modify the system or resources underneath me. I can grow my business to $100 million in sales, and not work any harder than I work now.

                        Why is this important?

                        Because when I stop managing at the strategic level to work on a $20/hour tactical level function, I have reclassified my effort to that of a system-level business resource. I am also unable to give my full attention to managing the $1,217.95/hour organization. I am in the machine instead of operating the machine - and selling my time to the machine is called "a job".

                        In order to "make more money" doing the $20/hour tactical function, the only way to maximize earnings is to simply do more of the $20/hour function - or, work more hours. But there's a theoretical maximum of the 60 hours, right? That means that my fully committed resource time at that level is worth $1,200 and not the $73,077 that I currently generate for the same commitment.

                        This is why I previously stated that your statements demonstrate someone that thinks like an employee and not a business owner. Labor trying to become capital. Craftsperson vs. Businessperson.

                        Feel free to continue learning more business concepts at this level in your nearest local business MBA program. I didn't invent it.


                        EDITED TO ADD:

                        Oh, and for the sake of debate, let's pretend that it's 1997, and you can still actually sell the HTML services for $150 an hour as the craftsperson. Are you still anywhere close to the strategic-level value?
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                        • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
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                          • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                            Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

                            Wow. That was...awesome.

                            I wasn't going to post again, but Michael nailed it in the head.

                            Rob
                            Just in time too, I was running out of popcorn after sharing it with that Belknap troll.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
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                              • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                                Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

                                Glad to keep the drama up for ya'!

                                Sometimes the Soap's just don't do it.

                                Rob
                                Wait...I thought that was my wife's job? :rolleyes:
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                            • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
                              I am trying to learn how to do Web design, graphics and coding. I am not there yet. I have been in the business for too long! I want to learn because...and this has been pointed out already.

                              Unless I can find a guy in my city that's super good. I just lose every creativity angle that should be there.

                              People that say that they outsource probably have a VERY simple business. Like a sales letter or something.

                              I've yet to seen a truly good wordpress template for free on anyone of these "free wordpress templates" - I may have high standards, but I just feel 99% of all the wordpress templates and like 99% of all the "web development guys" out there.. do... lame work.

                              You are leaving in a bubble to believe that you will not be better off. To either find a guy in your city. And watch behind his back when he develop your web sites.

                              Or, you learn everything yourself.

                              I certainly want to learn everything. But I have no clue where to being. I want to learn how to code, and how to do web design.

                              Why?? Because I believe I can become real good at it. And when you are good at something, then you can make a lot of money.

                              If we are speaking "marketing" with the help of 25 pages of sales copy on a blank page...with a big bold headline and some hype copy. Well...outsourcing is the thing for this! No dodoubt.

                              But if we actually want to invent something new...and develop real web business... I can't just see how being able to code and design can be to your dissadvantage. "outsourcing" is a lame excuse.

                              Most likely marketers who outsource their development, have no clear goal in sight on how a well crafted web project should look like.

                              That's why it's so easy to run with...well I spend my "time marketing"

                              If your site is a copy of some $5 dollar wordpress template. Goodluck making real money.

                              People may not know what they want. So "they outsource" it. And don't get what they want.

                              If I can't learn web development on my own now. I will "outsource it" to somebody that lives close to me. So I can speak to them LIVE, and point them in my direction. That's an HUGE advantage against marketers who only put their ads up on Scriptlance. And then, wait for the first person to bid. Then they wait for the final result.

                              If your presentation is sucky. You will not succeed in todays enviorment. At least we will earn way less money than if your web structure and development was...get this, top notch!

                              Adios!. Magic

                              If you want to earn the big bucks, outsourcing isn't enough. You need top guns.
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                        • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
                          Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                          it's still a $20/hour tactical-level task, thus reducing one's ability to build a business system outside of their own direct efforts.

                          Don't tell that to this guy and his "$20/hour tactical-level skill".
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                          :)

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                        • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
                          Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                          No it's not easier. It doesn't simplify it. Your statements demonstrate that you're looking at the world with a tactical-level viewpoint - not a strategic-level viewpoint. Strategic-level entrepreneurs don't do $20/hour jobs. They do $1000+/hour jobs. If you're an entrepreneur, you maximize the return on your assets - your most valuable, limited asset of all being your time. When you spend it doing tactical level things - even doing tactical-level things much faster and more efficient - it's still a $20/hour tactical-level task, thus reducing one's ability to build a business system outside of their own direct efforts. If that's not the goal, then you're a craftsperson, not a businessperson, and should probably explore some Michael Gerber (E-Myth) to understand the difference.
                          Gerber's book is great but his teachings are not the reality for the majority of this forum's members.

                          Most of the WF members are not making any money online.

                          Most of the WF members are not running their online business like a business with a staff (in-house or outsourced), business systems, or even a marketing plan in place. They should be, but they aren't.

                          Most of the WF members are pretty much in the beginning stages of their business and have little or no money to outsource anything. If you don't believe me on this point, look at the popularity of $0-7 products in the WSO section.

                          I suggest you re-read the OP. Here's the two most points with the bolding added by me:

                          Yes, you should ultimately outsource repetitive work, but you need the ability to do your own stuff when getting started. Later this information benefits you when it's time to outsource (knowing what can and can't be done, and how much time something should take).

                          I strongly recommend that people focus on web design and basic copywriting before buying some $1000 course on how to "make money online".
                          There are a lot of IMers trying to compete with lousy looking online salesletters or HTML pages.

                          There's even more with bad sales copy.

                          In an open marketplace, it puts them at a big disadvantage with their niche competition... unless their competition's sites look even worse and have equally bad copy.

                          If you don't believe me on this point, head over to the copywriting sub-forum of WF and look through some of the critique requests. I'd estimate at least 1/3 of them are told that the layout and design of their salesletters is bad.

                          Copywriting is the most expensive task to outsource for any business (offline or online)... at least if you're trying to get high-quality copy and not the $50 Elance variety.

                          If you don't have any money, then you either suffer with bad copy or you learn how to write your own copy.

                          And if you're just starting out and have no money, then it's the same problem.

                          Until they have money coming in (or have start-up capital or outside financing), then they can't outsource a thing.

                          Until they have money coming it, they are forced to operate at the tactical level.

                          That's reality for most IMers.

                          It's not the reality for many of the posters in this thread who are not just starting out. Many of the posters are established and have consistent monthly cashflow to pay for outsourcing help.

                          That makes a big difference in how a business can be run.

                          Take care,

                          Mike

                          P.S. Just be clear, I'm not picking on Michael Hiles individually. I really like his well-thought posts in this forum. He did a great job pointing out the way most business owners should be running their business with the Michael Gerber arguement. I'm a fan of Gerber's book and have used those methods for both offline and online businesses.

                          The Gerber arguement is the one that I hear most of you making and it has a lot of validity to it.

                          But I'm still siding with the OP's point: if you're just starting out (especially if you have little or no money) then you need to learn how to do the basics like web page building and above average copywriting first. Otherwise, you're not competing on a level field with your niche competitors.

                          It's a cashflow dictated reality for most IMers.

                          Solve the cashflow reality and then you should outsource every task you can so you *can* focus on the higher level parts of running a successful business.
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                          • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                            Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

                            Gerber's book is great but his teachings are not the reality for the majority of this forum's members.
                            If their intention is to be a businessowner, Gerber's concepts had better become the reality for the majority of this forum's members. Another oft-quoted beloved writer on this forum, Tim Ferriss, wrote a popular book that also attracted a lot of people to internet marketing. The four hour work week isn't a reality when you're a craftsperson.

                            Most of the WF members are not making any money online.

                            Most of the WF members are not running their online business like a business with a staff (in-house or outsourced), business systems, or even a marketing plan in place. They should be, but they aren't.
                            Think about those two statements and the irony that you put them together the way that you did.

                            Most WF members aren't running their online business like a business in their own minds, which has to be done BEFORE one has the staff and systems. Building the systems "on paper" is essential as a roadmap.

                            Most of the WF members are pretty much in the beginning stages of their business and have little or no money to outsource anything. If you don't believe me on this point, look at the popularity of $0-7 products in the WSO section.

                            .........

                            And if you're just starting out and have no money, then it's the same problem.

                            Until they have money coming in (or have start-up capital or outside financing), then they can't outsource a thing.

                            Until they have money coming it, they are forced to operate at the tactical level.

                            That's reality for most IMers.

                            It's not the reality for many of the posters in this thread who are not just starting out. Many of the posters are established and have consistent monthly cashflow to pay for outsourcing help.

                            That makes a big difference in how a business can be run.

                            Take care,

                            Mike

                            P.S. Just be clear, I'm not picking on Michael Hiles individually. I really like his well-thought posts in this forum. He did a great job pointing out the way most business owners should be running their business with the Michael Gerber arguement. I'm a fan of Gerber's book and have used those methods for both offline and online businesses.

                            The Gerber arguement is the one that I hear most of you making and it has a lot of validity to it.

                            But I'm still siding with the OP's point: if you're just starting out (especially if you have little or no money) then you need to learn how to do the basics like web page building and above average copywriting first. Otherwise, you're not competing on a level field with your niche competitors.

                            It's a cashflow dictated reality for most IMers.

                            Solve the cashflow reality and then you should outsource every task you can so you *can* focus on the higher level parts of running a successful business.
                            No offense taken at all. My thoughts are open to as much criticism as anyone else's on this forum.

                            Being a startup certainly makes things more difficult - but I contend that it's even MORE crucial to focus on building systems at that time - because at no time in the business will things be "clean" enough, simple enough to build the textbook flowchart.

                            Sure, one guy might be doing all the work in the system to start off, but he/she had better quickly transition out of that mode. The longer he/she stays IN that mode, the less likely the company will materialize into a business system at all - rather staying at the level of craftsmanship.

                            Now don't get me wrong, there are very successful craftspeople who don't care about business systems, and sell their fine work for a lot of money. But not in the global labor market of web dev where labor has been turned into a commodity.

                            I would suggest a couple of things.

                            An entrepreneur must treat their fledgling business like a business from day one. It has nothing to do with acting like a bigshot or refusing to do "menial" tasks. It has everything to do with being a business owner that treats his or her business like a real business and not a class project. People who do projects are employees - even within their own company. It's not about being a bigshot, it's about understanding capital vs. labor and leveraging all the wonderful theorems that fuel free market enterprise for the personal gain of all those who take on such challenges. Being a craftsperson worked in the mercantile economy of the 19th century, but communication technology has eliminated the localization of specialized labor - forcing a business to become a system to thrive.

                            Yes, startups dictate bootstrapping things from time-to-time. However, this should be viewed as a very temporary hurdle, not a standard operating protocol - which is the position that I interpreted Rick to have taken from the beginning.

                            A prudent entrepreneur will find resources to allow them to continue to develop the system and plan. When I first started my very first web dev company with ZERO cash in 1994, I was the "craftsperson". But it wasn't my first business venture, and I realized that I had to break out of the cycle of working on a project to free my time to run a business. I found two partners that I brought into the company as minority stakeholders, first giving them a cut of the sales on a per-project basis, and then later actual minority equity ownership in the company itself. I was as capable of a developer as they were, and maintain my skills to this very day. But I understood the feast or famine cash flow rollercoaster of working as the craftsperson, and wanted to build a business system instead.

                            Transitioning out of the bootstrap craftsperson mode into the owner and operator of a business system mode was harder than starting the company itself - and I also nearly failed at accomplishing this. I understood what had to be done academically, but because I regularly engaged in the very thing that Rick advocated, I had pockets of knowledge ownership of a specific project or function in the business that required my involvement. This meant that I was the bottleneck for the business system because there was no other resource with the knowledge. Every single time I dropped into tactical mode, I was creating another bottleneck into the future. My business was littered with pieces and parts of specialized knowledge that only I understood because I took the "easy" route by doing the development here or working on the infrastructure there.

                            Employees are the ones that create value for themselves within a system by creating domains of knowledge specialization. This is how they maximize their personal worth to a business system. This is where corporate fifedoms originate. However, this is the enemy to the business owner in the quest to maximize the value of the asset. Anyone who has relied on an outsourced function that walked off with half the project understands this. It's good for the labor side, bad for capital.

                            Once again Adam Smith 101. Capital cannot be labor. Labor is not capital.

                            If it weren't for my having to shelter the .COM bubble pop by partnering with a much larger company, I would have never learned any of this from a much more successful CEO (over $100 million personal net worth) forced me to build systems and quit being the technician once and for all.
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                            • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
                              Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                              Being a startup certainly makes things more difficult - but I contend that it's even MORE crucial to focus on building systems at that time - because at no time in the business will things be "clean" enough, simple enough to build the textbook flowchart.

                              Sure, one guy might be doing all the work in the system to start off, but he/she had better quickly transition out of that mode. The longer he/she stays IN that mode, the less likely the company will materialize into a business system at all - rather staying at the level of craftsmanship.
                              What you're describing is something that I've advocated and done in my own businesses for many years. The best solution is use both methods: technical and entrepreneurship, especially with startup businesses.

                              This thread has been mostly an argument for one method or the other.

                              Ironic, huh?

                              Yes, startups dictate bootstrapping things from time-to-time. However, this should be viewed as a very temporary hurdle, not a standard operating protocol - which is the position that I interpreted Rick to have taken from the beginning.
                              Ideally it's a temporary protocol but if you don't develop the skill then it's not even temporary. It's an ongoing issue at least until you have the cashflow to hire a pro for that task (graphic design, webdesign, copywriting, etc.)

                              Then there's the times where you have to step in as a business owner. Let me use copywriting as an example.

                              If you know how to write a decent sales letter... or a solid autoresponder email, it's practically a priceless skill. If your cashflow prevents you from hiring a copywriter... or you can't wait until your copywriter has an opening in their schedule for your project, then being able to write your own copy is really important.

                              Well known IM marketers like Frank Kern, John Reese, Anik Singal, Yanik Silver, Matt Furey, Brad Callen, and more write their own copy. Not all of the time, but enough of the time that they can "pinch-hit" when they need to and their business doesn't miss a beat. Some of them are darn good at writing copy too.

                              John Reese still writes some of the best written affiliate emails I've ever read even though he could easily outsource it. My guess is that he still enjoys that task and knows that it would not be easy to find someone else who could do it better for his business.


                              A prudent entrepreneur will find resources to allow them to continue to develop the system and plan.
                              True... but in the meantime, they can support the building of the system and plan by taking care of the important small details. Having the ability to take care of the small details positions the business towards success that much quicker.

                              Take care,

                              Mike
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                        • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
                          Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                          Strategic-level entrepreneurs don't do $20/hour jobs. They do $1000+/hour jobs.
                          You have completely missed my point and taken my words WAY out of context. Your stuff sounds great, but has NO application for the absolute beginner... which is what I am talking about (please see OP). How is this a hard concept to understand?

                          I've already explained, numerous times, that outsourcing is great. In fact, I am 100% outsourced... I make far more money than I need, and have literally ZERO day-to-day obligations (where you claim to work 60 hours week). I even outsourced the "management" side of things to a partner with a vested interest in the business. So, you are absolutely wasting your time to try and sell me on outsourcing. My business is growing without me, yet you seem to be spouting theory while working more than the average employee.

                          Go figure...

                          For those that still refuse to follow the OP, I am talking about the absolute beginner. Getting started online is far easier if you can do basic required tasks by yourself. They don't know how to outsource, what to outsource, what to do to make $1000/hour, and they certainly don't have money to hire people without a proven business.

                          You seem to have completely lost perspective, and are just spouting off random "business theory" as if it applies to everyone in every situation. It doesn't... get in touch with the reality of most peoples situation.

                          For someone so focused on leveraging his time, you sure write long posts in a thread that has already discussed your out-of-touch perspective. I assume your 60/hours a week is making you millions of dollars... $3.1m take-home if you are following your own advice... so, what are you doing here?

                          I await your off-topic reply about why I need to outsource the work I have already outsourced... and why beginners need to immediately find ways to make $1000 out of the gate, without a proven business model, without a complete understanding of business, and by paying people with money they don't have. Have fun...
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                          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                            You have completely missed my point and taken my words WAY out of context. Your stuff sounds great, but has NO application for the absolute beginner... which is what I am talking about (please see OP). How is this a hard concept to understand?
                            Exactly ... the last time I looked, this forum was not full of Henry Fords, Bill Gates, and Steve Jobs. Just look at the topics being posted and you will see that the noobs here are not generally busy closing the big deal, and providing executive level oversight to their businesses. They don't have any businesses and very little knowledge on how to make money, market and because they are told that they don't need any skills to do this, they don't have any skills either. There's some exceptions but there's a big percentage of noobs here drawn like moths to a light bulb to the idea of making money online with little to no effort or skills.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                              Exactly ... the last time I looked, this forum was not full of Henry Fords, Bill Gates, and Steve Jobs. Just look at the topics being posted and you will see that the noobs here are not generally busy closing the big deal, and providing executive level oversight to their businesses. They don't have any businesses and very little knowledge on how to make money, market and because they are told that they don't need any skills to do this, they don't have any skills either. There's some exceptions but there's a big percentage of noobs here drawn like moths to a light bulb to the idea of making money online with little to no effort or skills.

                              The forum also isn't full of people aspiring to build websites. I would personally prefer to tie bricks to my feet and jump in the deep end of my pool before I sit in front of my computer for an hour or hours either learning how to do it or applying the skills.

                              Why is it so hard to understand that there are many of us that have no desire to know the technical things?
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                              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                Banned
                                Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                The forum also isn't full of people aspiring to build websites. I would personally prefer to tie bricks to my feet and jump in the deep end of my pool before I sit in front of my computer for an hour or hours either learning how to do it or applying the skills.

                                Why is it so hard to understand that there are many of us that have no desire to know the technical things?
                                Not hard to understand at all, particularly in an Internet Marketing forum. I don't care if people learn to do things or not. I don't care if anyone has any skills or not. Makes my markets bigger and more profitable when they don't.

                                But this doesn't even really apply to you, does it? You are already making money. You have a staff ... and I think maybe even an office, so obviously, you don't need any more skills than you already have.

                                Outsourcers cost money. Many newbies here have no money. You have money. Good luck making money to people who have no money to invest and don't know how to do a single thing for themselves.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                  Not hard to understand at all, particularly in an Internet Marketing forum. I don't care if people learn to do things or not. I don't care if anyone has any skills or not. Makes my markets bigger and more profitable when they don't.

                                  But this doesn't even really apply to you, does it? You are already making money. You have a staff ... and I think maybe even an office, so obviously, you don't need any more skills than you already have.

                                  Outsourcers cost money. Many newbies here have no money. You have money. Good luck making money to people who have no money to invest and don't know how to do a single thing for themselves.
                                  No, it doesn't apply to me right at the moment BUT I got to where I am WITHOUT EVER BUILDING ONE WEBSITE - EVER.

                                  My partner knows how to build websites - But, he RARELY does it either.

                                  For me, there are just so many other profitable things to be doing, especially when there are tons of people on the net that are willing to do tasks like site development etc for practically nothing.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
                                    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                    No, it doesn't apply to me right at the moment BUT I got to where I am WITHOUT EVER BUILDING ONE WEBSITE - EVER.

                                    My partner knows how to build websites - But, he RARELY does it either.

                                    For me, there are just so many other profitable things to be doing, especially when there are tons of people on the net that are willing to do tasks like site development etc for practically nothing.
                                    Nobody is saying there aren't exceptions to the rule...

                                    If you are having success with that method... that's great. However, I don't believe that challenges the point being made here. Life is easier for absolute beginners when they have a little control over their destiny. When they can learn as they go, and "test" things without spending money they don't have.

                                    That is the reality for MANY beginners... they don't have an established business, they don't know what to outsource, how to outsource, where to spend money efficiently, or much else. Do you honestly recommend they start racking up debt building an un-proven business? Some people don't mind that pressure, and come out on top... but there are far more stories of failure because people don't have the basic tools to keep their start-up costs down.
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                              • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                                You have completely missed my point and taken my words WAY out of context. Your stuff sounds great, but has NO application for the absolute beginner... which is what I am talking about (please see OP). How is this a hard concept to understand?

                                I've already explained, numerous times, that outsourcing is great. In fact, I am 100% outsourced... I make far more money than I need, and have literally ZERO day-to-day obligations (where you claim to work 60 hours week). I even outsourced the "management" side of things to a partner with a vested interest in the business. So, you are absolutely wasting your time to try and sell me on outsourcing. My business is growing without me, yet you seem to be spouting theory while working more than the average employee.

                                Go figure...

                                For those that still refuse to follow the OP, I am talking about the absolute beginner. Getting started online is far easier if you can do basic required tasks by yourself. They don't know how to outsource, what to outsource, what to do to make $1000/hour, and they certainly don't have money to hire people without a proven business.

                                You seem to have completely lost perspective, and are just spouting off random "business theory" as if it applies to everyone in every situation. It doesn't... get in touch with the reality of most peoples situation.

                                For someone so focused on leveraging his time, you sure write long posts in a thread that has already discussed your out-of-touch perspective. I assume your 60/hours a week is making you millions of dollars... $3.1m take-home if you are following your own advice... so, what are you doing here?

                                I await your off-topic reply about why I need to outsource the work I have already outsourced... and why beginners need to immediately find ways to make $1000 out of the gate, without a proven business model, without a complete understanding of business, and by paying people with money they don't have. Have fun...
                                The absolute beginner needs to learn BUSINESS. You know, the foundational principles upon which all profit is built?

                                You pay people with money that you don't have with debentures, stock, etc... It's not textbook theory, it's how every company that has gone on to become a lasting success was developed. Yes, you should be financing your business any way possible. If you're not committed to the success of your venture, then you shouldn't be dabbling or playing office. You can't build a business with one pinkey toe in the water and the rest of your body in safety net mode.

                                I stand by my assessment. You think like an employee. You're labor pretending to be capital. You might make a great VP of Operations, but until you reframe your view of the asset value of time, you're success as a CEO will plateau.

                                Yes, I earn a lot of money - which enables me to do whatever I choose on a day to day basis. I didn't get there by doing $20/hour work.

                                Beginners need to understand business first, and then find ways to secure the resources needed to produce a functioning business system. That might mean a debenture (that's an IOU). That might mean paying someone based on royalties of sales. That might mean raising angel capital from family or friends based upon the need.

                                As the absolute beginner, I had all the skills necessary to go and do any technical work that any project called for that I sold. I secured partners in the business by whatever means that I could. I passed up on some great talent because I couldn't afford them or convince them to take a cut of the action. But eventually I got what I needed.

                                This isn't random business theory. If you happen to know any startup CEOs of even mid-sized companies, feel free to discuss it with them.



                                Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                                The big disconnect here seems to be based on a lot of people still ignoring the OP. There are people that think they need to spout off advanced theory to sound smart, and then people that understand the reality for MOST people starting a business.

                                I'm still waiting on MichaelHiles to reply to my post above. Something tells me he has lost interest in this topic... or maybe he is too busy working his "60 hours a week" while reading books on outsourcing.
                                Sorry, I was having lunch with another Warrior. Whatever it is that "tells you" things needs tuned.

                                One of those $1000/hour activities while my team was doing the work on another project that I'm launching in June.

                                This isn't advanced theory. It's business basics. Division of labor. Capital.

                                You're quite a forum viking with your acerbic, smartass remarks actually, and it's pretty amusing. Far from sufficient for provocation to reduce me to the level of squabbling with someone over something that the first year business student learns as a foundational principle upon which all free market enterprise is built.

                                I understand the reality of starting a business. I built a multimillion dollar one from nothing. Merged it with one of the largest direct print marketing companies in the USA (that owns 30% of the nation's Val-Pak franchises). I didn't get there by doing $20/hour work.

                                Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

                                You quoted me out of context.

                                I never said it was a business system. Neither is web design... audio editing... video production... or any number of tasks that IMers do.

                                Even so, copywriting is vital to any business. That's why so many Fortune 1000 companies, book publishing companies, and more have their own in-house copywriting department.

                                That's why good copywriting is the most expensive task to outsource.

                                Copywriters write the marketing and advertising that a business uses. They write the sales scripts that your sales people, your telemarketing departments, and customer service support person should be using. If you are doing video sales pitches, then you should have someone with copywriting skills write the video pitch script.

                                Either you act as your business's copywriter or you hire someone else.

                                If you can't afford to pay thousands for quality copywriting then you either do without high-quality marketing or you have to figure how to write good copy yourself.



                                Again, not relevant to the OP's specified group: Internet Marketers.

                                Most IMers aren't incorporated so they don't have stock to offer an investor.

                                Most IMers wouldn't understand half of what you just wrote because they don't know accounting terminology or how to write a business plan.

                                Put the textbook down and look at what the OP stated. He's talking about beginning IMers.

                                They have little or no money. They are a bootstrapping start-up. They have little or assets... definitely not a situation where a venture capitalist would be willing to put up 7 figures to finance the business.
                                There are far more creative ways to finance a new business operation than a venture capital fund. This isn't textbook, this is practical application. You're talking to someone that presently consults for a tech venture fund, and has personally raised over $200 million in capital as well as worked on multiple M&A deals in multiple industries.

                                What I see and hear is a bunch of people who really do not understand the distinction between labor and capital, who are arguing that labor is capital, and the only way to derive capital.

                                Sell partnership units. Give royalties. There are far more ways to finance a company than selling stock, although that's a pretty simply thing to do in most states and can be put together by an average business attorney that understands accredited investments and the necessary paperwork. What, can't find the cash to pay an attorney? Find one that will work on points on the deal based on the amount of cash raised. I did.

                                The socialists in public education sure have done quite a number.


                                Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                The forum also isn't full of people aspiring to build websites. I would personally prefer to tie bricks to my feet and jump in the deep end of my pool before I sit in front of my computer for an hour or hours either learning how to do it or applying the skills.

                                Why is it so hard to understand that there are many of us that have no desire to know the technical things?
                                This forum is full of people that aspire to be in business for themselves. I'd think that they would want to know business fundamentals and develop their business based on those FIRST.

                                Or not...
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                                • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
                                  Now I'm confused - Did the OP state that those who aspire to be in business for themselves should not gain a knowledge of business fundamentals?

                                  I guess I don't understand why you're arguing this. It's as if you think that a knowledge of business fundamentals and a knowledge of technology related to that business are mutually exclusive.

                                  Perhaps you should start a new thread. You've brought forth a lot of good ideas which might make a good forum post on their own. Your points however don't seem to be useful in refuting the ideas presented in the OP, which seems to be what you're attempting to do with those ideas.

                                  Why not start a new thread with useful information about the benefits of having a knowledge of business when starting out?
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                                  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                    Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

                                    Now I'm confused - Did the OP state that those who aspire to be in business for themselves should not gain a knowledge of business fundamentals?

                                    I guess I don't understand why you're arguing this. It's as if you think that a knowledge of business fundamentals and a knowledge of technology related to that business are mutually exclusive.

                                    Perhaps you should start a new thread. You've brought forth a lot of good ideas which might make a good forum post on their own. Your points however don't seem to be useful in refuting the ideas presented in the OP, which seems to be what you're attempting to do with those ideas.

                                    Why not start a new thread with useful information about having a knowledge of business when starting out?
                                    The mere knowledge of business vs. specialized technical knowledge isn't mutually exclusive. The value of the time spent in the activity most certainly is mutually exclusive - which is the basis of all my responses. How you spend the time in your day, doing whatever you do in your business is most definately the entire point.

                                    The OP didn't suggest that a business owner learn to code purely for the academic pursuit of knowledge. He went further to emphasize the conversion of the knowledge into project activity - which is the point at which I interject my entire position based on the value of your time as it pertains to the overall development of your business. Therefore, it is certainly relevant. Being able to code is NOT efficient use of a business owner's time. Period.

                                    As for starting a new thread about startup business and finance fundamentals, value of time vs. money, division of labor, etc... feel free and let me know what you'd like me to comment about.
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                                • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
                                  Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                  You can't build a business with one pinkey toe in the water and the rest of your body in safety net mode.
                                  There is nothing wrong with having a backup plan, and I think it's incredibly irresponsible to recommend against it. I am not suggesting you become over-reliant on your backup (though your inaccurate analogy would indicate that).

                                  The notion that "risking it all" is a necessity for becoming successful is directly responsible for a massive amount of debt, bankrupsy, and even suicide. It's silly and irresponsible to suggest the only path to success must not include a backup plan.

                                  Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                  I stand by my assessment. You think like an employee. You're labor pretending to be capital. You might make a great VP of Operations, but until you reframe your view of the asset value of time, you're success as a CEO will plateau.
                                  Did you actually read anything I wrote about outsourcing? I have ZERO day to day responsibility while you work 60 hours a week. I can literally spend 5 minutes writing an e-mail and have $40,000 within 48 hours, but I've even outsourced that to my business partner.

                                  You still fail to recognize that this discussion is about beginners, and continue to ramble on about theory that I am clearly applying more effectively than you. You can keep posting, but you've lost all credibility.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                    Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                                    There is nothing wrong with having a backup plan, and I think it's incredibly irresponsible to recommend against it. I am not suggesting you become over-reliant on your backup (though your inaccurate analogy would indicate that).

                                    The notion that "risking it all" is a necessity for becoming successful is directly responsible for a massive amount of debt, bankrupsy, and even suicide. It's silly and irresponsible to suggest the only path to success is to risk it all right out of the gate.



                                    Did you actually read anything I wrote about outsourcing? I have ZERO day to day responsibility while you work 60 hours a week. I can literally spend 5 minutes writing an e-mail and have $40,000 within 48 hours, but I've even outsourced that to my business partner.

                                    You still fail to recognize that this discussion is about beginners, and continue to ramble on about theory that I am clearly applying more effectively than you. You can keep posting, but you've lost all credibility.
                                    Look, there's no need for you to use your boorish, inflammatory style to classify yourself as a less than desireable member of this community. People who resort to such vitriol generally don't have much of a position to rely upon in any discussion, and how you've gone about saying things speaks more about you than what you've actually said.

                                    You have no credible basis to make any statement about our relative effectiveness. The mere fact that you've reduced yourself to comparing yourself to whatever you think that it is you know about me is quite telling actually.

                                    You know nothing about me except what you've read here. Mostly that I have a tremendous amount of very high level experience in business from bootstrap startups to venture finance. And, that I have some success, and that I choose to work a lot (probably because my net worth isn't yet where I desire it to be).

                                    What I've read is a Vegas neon sign blinking "CRAFTSPERSON DEAD AHEAD". The self-aggrandizing of your own self-imposed, limiting frameworks, the acerbic communication style in situations that hardly require such a display (probably indicating latent defense mechanisms that likely exist to compensate for self-esteem issues), all of these demonstrate that you're not a candidate to be any sort of business associate that anyone in my entire network would ever accept.

                                    Nor would I partner with you or recommend as a vendor or investment candidate without any serious overhaul of the worldview and approach towards other people in what is ultimately a people and relationship-driven business.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                      Look, there's no need for you to use your boorish, inflammatory style to classify yourself as a less than desireable member of this community.
                                      I have to step in and wave a flag here.

                                      Rick clearly isn't used to being the FNG.

                                      It seems pretty obvious to me that Rick is a big fish from some other pond, who has come over here thinking that people will rapidly discover what a big fish he is and treat him with the same trust and respect he got over in that other pond.

                                      What we're seeing now is the panic reaction that we don't know or care who he is or what pond he came from. That's pretty scary for someone like him. It can shake your entire self-image.

                                      So don't judge Rick too harshly for this. It's a baptism by fire, and he certainly isn't coming through it unscathed... but his behaviour in this thread is almost certainly not the way he usually behaves. No matter how unprofessional his posts here may become (and they're honestly not that bad), let's try not to hold it against him in other threads and future discussions.

                                      I have every confidence that once the shock wears off, he'll become a valued and recognised member of the community within a week or two, and I for one look forward to discussing other matters with someone of his obvious intelligence and strength of conviction.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                                        I have to step in and wave a flag here.

                                        Rick clearly isn't used to being the FNG.

                                        It seems pretty obvious to me that Rick is a big fish from some other pond, who has come over here thinking that people will rapidly discover what a big fish he is and treat him with the same trust and respect he got over in that other pond.

                                        What we're seeing now is the panic reaction that we don't know or care who he is or what pond he came from. That's pretty scary for someone like him. It can shake your entire self-image.

                                        So don't judge Rick too harshly for this. It's a baptism by fire, and he certainly isn't coming through it unscathed... but his behaviour in this thread is almost certainly not the way he usually behaves. No matter how unprofessional his posts here may become (and they're honestly not that bad), let's try not to hold it against him in other threads and future discussions.

                                        I have every confidence that once the shock wears off, he'll become a valued and recognised member of the community within a week or two, and I for one look forward to discussing other matters with someone of his obvious intelligence and strength of conviction.
                                        Fair enough.

                                        I enjoy a great, even heated, debate. But when someone resorts to personal attacks to defend their position, it tends to speak volumes about their character as a whole - including their character as a businessperson. The ol' credit score is looking pretty lean at the moment.
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                                • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
                                  Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                  The absolute beginner needs to learn BUSINESS. You know, the foundational principles upon which all profit is built?

                                  You pay people with money that you don't have with debentures, stock, etc... It's not textbook theory, it's how every company that has gone on to become a lasting success was developed. Yes, you should be financing your business any way possible. If you're not committed to the success of your venture, then you shouldn't be dabbling or playing office. You can't build a business with one pinkey toe in the water and the rest of your body in safety net mode.

                                  I stand by my assessment. You think like an employee. You're labor pretending to be capital. You might make a great VP of Operations, but until you reframe your view of the asset value of time, you're success as a CEO will plateau.

                                  Yes, I earn a lot of money - which enables me to do whatever I choose on a day to day basis. I didn't get there by doing $20/hour work.

                                  Beginners need to understand business first, and then find ways to secure the resources needed to produce a functioning business system. That might mean a debenture (that's an IOU). That might mean paying someone based on royalties of sales. That might mean raising angel capital from family or friends based upon the need.

                                  As the absolute beginner, I had all the skills necessary to go and do any technical work that any project called for that I sold. I secured partners in the business by whatever means that I could. I passed up on some great talent because I couldn't afford them or convince them to take a cut of the action. But eventually I got what I needed.

                                  This isn't random business theory. If you happen to know any startup CEOs of even mid-sized companies, feel free to discuss it with them.





                                  Sorry, I was having lunch with another Warrior. Whatever it is that "tells you" things needs tuned.

                                  One of those $1000/hour activities while my team was doing the work on another project that I'm launching in June.

                                  This isn't advanced theory. It's business basics. Division of labor. Capital.

                                  You're quite a forum viking with your acerbic, smartass remarks actually, and it's pretty amusing. Far from sufficient for provocation to reduce me to the level of squabbling with someone over something that the first year business student learns as a foundational principle upon which all free market enterprise is built.

                                  I understand the reality of starting a business. I built a multimillion dollar one from nothing. Merged it with one of the largest direct print marketing companies in the USA (that owns 30% of the nation's Val-Pak franchises). I didn't get there by doing $20/hour work.



                                  There are far more creative ways to finance a new business operation than a venture capital fund. This isn't textbook, this is practical application. You're talking to someone that presently consults for a tech venture fund, and has personally raised over $200 million in capital as well as worked on multiple M&A deals in multiple industries.

                                  What I see and hear is a bunch of people who really do not understand the distinction between labor and capital, who are arguing that labor is capital, and the only way to derive capital.

                                  Sell partnership units. Give royalties. There are far more ways to finance a company than selling stock, although that's a pretty simply thing to do in most states and can be put together by an average business attorney that understands accredited investments and the necessary paperwork. What, can't find the cash to pay an attorney? Find one that will work on points on the deal based on the amount of cash raised. I did.

                                  The socialists in public education sure have done quite a number.




                                  This forum is full of people that aspire to be in business for themselves. I'd think that they would want to know business fundamentals and develop their business based on those FIRST.

                                  Or not...
                                  What in the world does any of your textbook mumbo-jumbo have to do with the OP of this thread?

                                  There's 180+ posts in this thread and you're the only one spouting off about MBA theory and quoting Michael Gerber.

                                  There's been multi-billion dollar companies started by high school dropouts who never attended a single day of college.

                                  There's been multi-billion dollar companies started by pure bootstrapping.

                                  Bootstrapping is the same method that the majority of IMers are using to start and build their business. It's how I started my info-product business and three other previous businesses I've owned in the last 17 years.

                                  You still haven't given a non-textbook rebuttal to the OP... why do you feel it's not important for bootstrapping IMers to develop basic web design or copywriting skills?
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                                  • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
                                    Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

                                    What in the world does any of your textbook mumbo-jumbo have to do with the OP of this thread?

                                    There's 180+ posts in this thread and you're the only one spouting off about MBA theory and quoting Michael Gerber.

                                    There's been multi-billion dollar companies started by high school dropouts who never attended a single day of college.

                                    There's been multi-billion dollar companies started by pure bootstrapping.
                                    All excellent points. You hit it right on the head. The VAST majority of truly successful people started at the ground level. All this "theory" stuff doesn't work if you don't have the direct experience to know how, where, and why it should be applied. You don't get that by reading textbooks alone... there are no real shortcuts.

                                    MichaelHiles is far more interested in showing off his theory than understanding the reality of most beginners. Which explains why he never directly addresses the OP.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                      Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                                      Which explains why he never directly addresses the OP.
                                      Your original post has a fundamental core of "IMers should learn web design." Michael's post has a fundamental core of "wasting time on low-level activities is counterproductive to building a business." When you equate "web design" with "low-level activities," they become connected.

                                      A large part of Michael's point is that when one is first starting out, it is attractive to worry about the low-level activities, because that will save you money. But this is a limiting factor.

                                      It limits you both by taking up your time, and by developing a habit of doing low-level activities in your business. If your habits will not allow you to be the multi-million dollar CEO of a successful business, you will never be one.

                                      So if that is the goal, don't develop those habits. Instead, develop the habits of that CEO today, and you will already have them when you get there.

                                      I personally like to put it another way. There is a point in your career where you have to decide whether your aim is to do great work or change the world.

                                      If you want to do great work, you can't do that from where Michael sits. You have to be in the trenches, doing the work, or you'll never have the real-world experience to do great work at all.

                                      But if you want to change the world, you have to get out of the trenches. Nobody in the trenches is going to change the world. There was a point in Bill Gates' life where he had to stop writing code. And he loves to write code.

                                      I suggest we are better off for what he's done instead.
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                                      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                                    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                      Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                                      All excellent points. You hit it right on the head. The VAST majority of truly successful people started at the ground level. All this "theory" stuff doesn't work if you don't have the direct experience to know how, where, and why it should be applied. You don't get that by reading textbooks alone... there are no real shortcuts.

                                      MichaelHiles is far more interested in showing off his theory than understanding the reality of most beginners. Which explains why he never directly addresses the OP.

                                      I'm more interested in demonstrating how my (and other extremely successful entrepreneurs) experience continues to contradict your dogmatic limitations.

                                      (not to mention why you wouldn't do very well as a 800 Psychic)

                                      You'd might actually do yourself a favor by actually cracking a book every once in a while instead of spouting off your juvenile amateurish parody of real, sustainable business acumin.

                                      Oh I forgot... you already know everything, which is why you read minds, scry into your crystal ball to see what I was doing instead of responding to your playground rants on here, and generally impose yourself in an intellectually dishonest fashion.

                                      You're expressions here betray your real emotional maturity level.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                    Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

                                    What in the world does any of your textbook mumbo-jumbo have to do with the OP of this thread?

                                    There's 180+ posts in this thread and you're the only one spouting off about MBA theory and quoting Michael Gerber.

                                    There's been multi-billion dollar companies started by high school dropouts who never attended a single day of college.

                                    There's been multi-billion dollar companies started by pure bootstrapping.

                                    Bootstrapping is the same method that the majority of IMers are using to start and build their business. It's how I started my info-product business and three other previous businesses I've owned in the last 17 years.

                                    You still haven't given a non-textbook rebuttal to the OP... why do you feel it's not important for bootstrapping IMers to develop basic web design or copywriting skills?
                                    Of course there have been billion dollar companies started by pure bootstrapping. And yes, I have provided a rebuttal to the OP - just not the one you want. That's because the true rebuttal is so fundamental, it's covered in textbooks.
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                                • Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                  The absolute beginner needs to learn BUSINESS. You know, the foundational principles upon which all profit is built?
                                  WRONG! the absolute beginner needs to GET GOING, that's just it!

                                  The absolute beginner doesn't know where he's headed, he doesn't have a business plan and he doesn't know whether he'll make squat from him little website.

                                  And you reckon he should be learning about business, money labor division whatever-that-means, and what not? no mate, what he needs is to put a little site together, a few emails on his aweber autoresponder and... well... we'll see how it goes from there... And in order to get that lil'website, those few HTML meta refresh links and those few tracking scripts in place he should learn at least the basics of the technology he's trying to monetize from, don't you think?

                                  And, once he's making some decent money more less regularly, he can go ahead and learn business. Until then, he needs to get his damn hands dirty, just like Larry Page and Sergey Brin (founders of Google, both started off a garage), or Jeff Bezos (founder of Amazon, started off his apartment's spare room), and so many others. Do you think they were outsourcing sh!t when they started out?
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                                  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                    Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

                                    WRONG! the absolute beginner needs to GET GOING, that's just it!

                                    The absolute beginner doesn't know where he's headed, he doesn't have a business plan and he doesn't know whether he'll make squat from him little website.

                                    And you reckon he should be learning about business, money labor division whatever-that-means, and what not? no mate, what he needs is to put a little site together, a few emails on his aweber autoresponder and... well... we'll see how it goes from there... And in order to get that lil'website, those few HTML meta refresh links and those few tracking scripts in place he should learn at least the basics of the technology he's trying to monetize from, don't you think?

                                    And, once he's making some decent money more less regularly, he can go ahead and learn business. Until then, he needs to get his damn hands dirty, just like Larry Page and Sergey Brin (founders of Google, both started off a garage), or Jeff Bezos (founder of Amazon, started off his apartment's spare room), and so many others. Do you think they were outsourcing sh!t when they started out?
                                    Get what going? You got a plan for that? You have a framework? You know what it is that you're getting going? Or are you a digital Herb Tarlek just jonesing to "sell em' something... anything"?

                                    The first thing Bezos did was write a business plan. He's well known for his attention to business process - SO OTHER PEOPLE CAN WORK IN THE PROCESS.
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                                    • Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                      Get what going? You got a plan for that? You have a framework? You know what it is that you're getting going? Or are you a digital Herb Tarlek just jonesing to "sell em' something... anything".
                                      In my opinion, at the very beginning, the action is more valuable the direction. Just like when you're learning to play guitar you don't really ask yourself about what direction your musical career should take - you simply want your neighbors to stop calling police because of that horrible noise coming outta your guitar, that's all.

                                      I dunno man, but I believe that we gotta learn to walk before we get running! And, in this business, before you get running you need to get that little first few websites out. And no, you're not going to outsource those first few sites. You gotta get your hands dirty with them!
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                                      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                        Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

                                        In my opinion, at the very beginning, the action is more valuable the direction. Just like when you're learning to play guitar you don't really ask yourself about what direction your musical career should take - you simply want your neighbors to stop calling police because of that horrible noise coming outta your guitar, that's all.

                                        I dunno man, but I believe that we gotta learn to walk before we get running! And, in this business, before you get running you need to get that little first few websites out. And no, you're not going to outsource those first few sites. You gotta get your hands dirty with them!
                                        You say potato I say potahto.

                                        That IS an approach, indeed. No qualms there.

                                        But I have a different approach that meets a different level of need and perspective.

                                        For example, find a college intern that's looking for some resume' experience and an awesome letter of rec. to do the coding for you. It's just an example.

                                        One is tactical. One is strategic.

                                        Where do you want to be in your business?

                                        The artisan or the financier?

                                        Originally Posted by AP View Post

                                        It's a simple answer. I don't have the Time, I'm too busy making money.

                                        I'm over 50, my IT skills suck. I make great money marketing to Mom & Pop business owners who are happy to pay me $20,000, $30,000, $50,000+ per year marketing their business.

                                        I have (3) full time VA's who do my work.

                                        My best use of time is Face to Face with business owners selling my Marketing skills.

                                        Do I wish I had IT skills, heck yes. I do know Website Design, layout and conversion skills.

                                        I learned from the best:
                                        Jakob Nielsen: useit.com: Jakob Nielsen on Usability and Web Design

                                        Steve Krug: Advanced Common Sense Home

                                        Good to see you around here.

                                        Case in point... does Dan Kennedy know how to get his personal email yet?

                                        lol
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                                        • Profile picture of the author AP
                                          Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post


                                          Good to see you around here.

                                          Case in point... does Dan Kennedy know how to get his personal email yet?

                                          lol
                                          Thanks Michael, been busy coaching offliners helping them make real money. Been hanging out at some other offline forums that were started as a result of that epic Offline thread in my Sig.

                                          No, Dan Kennedy only uses the Fax and telephone (landline). His preferred choice is fax, lol.

                                          He does NOT have a cell phone.

                                          I detest my cell phone (rarely use it, I refuse to be a Dog on an electronic leash), have a 3 year old Motorola Razor, and could care less that my kids laugh at me because I don't have the fancy iPhones I purchased for them. I use a PC, they use MacBook Pros, iPads, iTouch, all paid by good ol dad.

                                          I don't need no stinkin technology to make money. Try to make your business clients money without using Google, Twitter, Facebook, etc...

                                          That takes a real pro. Gary Halbert didn't need no stinkin website.

                                          Thats why I get paid the BIG USD, Dinero, Euro, Canadian Dollar, etc...

                                          ~AP
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                                        • Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                          For example, find a college intern that's looking for some resume' experience and an awesome letter of rec. to do the coding for you.
                                          Dude, the OP was about newbies! no newbie is going to hire any college intern. This thread is about newbies not wanting to learn the nitty gritty, and newbies cannot go out to the market shopping around for a college intern, thus they've got to learn how to do it themselves.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                            Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

                                            Dude, the OP was about newbies! no newbie is going to hire any college intern. This thread is about newbies not wanting to learn the nitty gritty, and newbies cannot go out to the market shopping around for a college intern, thus they've got to learn how to do it themselves.

                                            In fact, one of the biggest sources of inexpensive (almost free) low-level talent for any business is the internship programs at local universities. Any local chamber of commerce, SCORE chapter, SBA office, or other startup or early stage support group will advise this.

                                            The frame was newbies not wanting to learn the nitty gritty of programming. Are you broadening this to say that newbies don't want to learn the nitty gritty of general startup business?

                                            I'm personally not comfortable placing such a limiting frame on any person to not adopt a creative strategy to make their business work.
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                                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                  Banned
                                  Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                  The absolute beginner needs to learn BUSINESS. You know, the foundational principles upon which all profit is built?

                                  You pay people with money that you don't have with debentures, stock, etc... It's not textbook theory, it's how every company that has gone on to become a lasting success was developed. Yes, you should be financing your business any way possible. If you're not committed to the success of your venture, then you shouldn't be dabbling or playing office. You can't build a business with one pinkey toe in the water and the rest of your body in safety net mode.

                                  I stand by my assessment. You think like an employee. You're labor pretending to be capital. You might make a great VP of Operations, but until you reframe your view of the asset value of time, you're success as a CEO will plateau.
                                  Mark Zuckerberg created Facebook in his Harvard dorm room as a way for him and his friends to better connect with schoolmates. In the intervening years, he'd raised $37.7 million from venture capitalists and transformed his modest Web site into a certified social phenomenon.

                                  Markus Frind is a Canadian entrepreneur who owns PlentyofFish.com, the world's largest online dating website. According to reports in 2006, he earned around $10,000 a day through Adsense's contextual advertising program.

                                  Plenty of Fish now receives 45 million visitors along with 1.1 billion pageviews every month.
                                  His annual income from PlentyofFish.com alone is currently $5 to $10 million a year.

                                  What is fascinating is that Markus Frind is a one-man show. He virtually ran Plenty of Fish by himself, along with help from his girlfriend and other voluntary moderators.

                                  Then there's Craigslist which I read was created by Craig in his basement.

                                  No one will convince me that having skills is an "employee mindset".
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                                  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                    Mark Zuckerberg created Facebook in his Harvard dorm room as a way for him and his friends to better connect with schoolmates. In the intervening years, he'd raised $37.7 million from venture capitalists and transformed his modest Web site into a certified social phenomenon.

                                    Markus Frind is a Canadian entrepreneur who owns PlentyofFish.com, the world's largest online dating website. According to reports in 2006, he earned around $10,000 a day through Adsense's contextual advertising program.

                                    Plenty of Fish now receives 45 million visitors along with 1.1 billion pageviews every month.
                                    His annual income from PlentyofFish.com alone is currently $5 to $10 million a year.

                                    What is fascinating is that Markus Frind is a one-man show. He virtually ran Plenty of Fish by himself, along with help from his girlfriend and other voluntary moderators.

                                    Then there's Craigslist which I read was created by Craig in his basement.

                                    No one will convince me that having skills is an "employee mindset".

                                    You skipped a whole bunch.

                                    I already said skills were great. The entire debate revolved around the claim that learning how to do web development was critical to long-term success. And it clearly is not inasmuch as Rick even admitted that it wasn't.

                                    Now what was that you wanted to debate?
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                                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                      Banned
                                      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                      You skipped a whole bunch.

                                      I already said skills were great. The entire debate revolved around the claim that learning how to do web development was critical to long-term success. And it clearly is not as much as Rick even admitted that it wasn't.

                                      Now what was that you wanted to debate?

                                      Good to hear that you think skills are great. I've read most of the posts in this thread, but not all. It's a bit long, and actually, I don't want to debate anything in particular. For newbies skimming this thread and not reading each post, they are quite likely to get the idea that skills are unnecessary for success (probably because that is what they would like to hear). My point is that while web design skills may not be required for Internet Marketing success, you will have to pay someone else for that which you are unwilling to learn and that having as many skills as possible will serve you well in your life as well as business.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                        Good to hear that you think skills are great. I've read most of the posts in this thread, but not all. It's a bit long, and actually, I don't want to debate anything in particular. For newbies skimming this thread and not reading each post, they are quite likely to get the idea that skills are unnecessary for success (probably because that is what they would like to hear). My point is that while web design skills may not be required for Internet Marketing success, you will have to pay someone else for that which you are unwilling to learn and that having as many skills as possible will serve you well in your life as well as business.

                                        I will gladly pay someone $20-$50 a hour to do skills that I don't want to learn when I am making $1000 an hour with the skills that I already have. Doesn't seem like that great of a trade-off. I say this as someone with an MCSD and Oracle OCP. I'm sort of a technical guy.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
                                    I put programming & web development skills...as high as marketing. If we create something uniqe and out of the box....we need almost none marketing skills, it's going to become viral on it's own.

                                    But we need of course capital to start something like Zuckerberg. But I believe Frind started small and made money on his way to fortunes, to expand his business concept. Go figure.
                                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                    Mark Zuckerberg created Facebook in his Harvard dorm room as a way for him and his friends to better connect with schoolmates. In the intervening years, he'd raised $37.7 million from venture capitalists and transformed his modest Web site into a certified social phenomenon.

                                    Markus Frind is a Canadian entrepreneur who owns PlentyofFish.com, the world's largest online dating website. According to reports in 2006, he earned around $10,000 a day through Adsense's contextual advertising program.

                                    Plenty of Fish now receives 45 million visitors along with 1.1 billion pageviews every month.
                                    His annual income from PlentyofFish.com alone is currently $5 to $10 million a year.
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                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                    Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                    This thread has nothing to do with "learn everything there is to learn", and it has everything to do with "learn a skill that simplifies what you are already doing".
                    Do you know how I make a sales page?

                    I have several thousand blank templates.

                    I pick one and write copy.

                    How would web design simplify that?
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                    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
                      I wonder how many IMers would answer differently if there weren't software like WordPress or Joomla to use.

                      It wasn't that long ago that WordPress didn't exist and Mambo was in its infancy (think Joomla version 1.0).

                      Food for thought,

                      Mike
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                    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
                      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                      Do you know how I make a sales page?

                      I have several thousand blank templates.

                      I pick one and write copy.

                      How would web design simplify that?
                      Simple.

                      You could create your own blank template based on what is converting best at this time for that type of webpage (i.e. squeeze page, salesletter, one-time offer, etc.)
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                      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                        Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

                        You could create your own blank template
                        Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

                        Basic web design skills would allow you to:
                        I do not see any of this as "simpler" than grabbing what I have, writing my copy, and being done with it.

                        I am particularly mystified by Rick's idea that if I had web design skills, I could upload. Uploading is design? Really?

                        All these wonderful things I could do, while they are certainly nice options, are new things that I did not have to do before.

                        This is simpler?

                        Really, your idea is that I should know web design so instead of sitting down and writing copy... I can sit down and design a web page, THEN write copy.

                        Do I look like I need more work to do?

                        Michael makes a good point for the people who can operate on that level, but I think Rick's thinking much more along the lines of someone just starting out - someone who is building the machine that can be supervised. (This is pretty much what I'm doing.) Many of them won't get there for several years.

                        So while strategic-level thinking is a good goal, there's not enough of a system for it just yet. You can't think strategy when all you have is a small business owner, his brother who "kind of knows some computer stuff" (which is the guy you'd have doing the web design), and two guys in the Philippines who write articles and build backlinks.

                        However, I think it is pretty clear that "go learn web design" is NOT a good tactical manoeuvre for the owner. It is a Good Idea for the owner to have some way to get web design, but knowing it himself is not the only way to get it... and it's pretty obviously not the best way, either. About the most you can say is that it's the cheapest, but that ignores opportunity cost - which is verging on Michael's strategic approach.
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                    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
                      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                      Do you know how I make a sales page?

                      I have several thousand blank templates.

                      I pick one and write copy.

                      How would web design simplify that?
                      Basic web design skills would allow you to: edit it directly, upload it yourself, make changes at will, customize minor things to improve conversions for your unique niche, setup Google Website Optimizer to split test headlines/backgrounds/other-elements, directly change copy/design based on analytics/optimizer results... I'm sure there are literally dozens of other things, but any one of those should be enough reason to spend a few hours learning the basics.

                      Best of all, these benefits can all be used at will with no cost. You can always choose to do them, or outsource them. Whatever fits the situation at the time.

                      As someone said earlier, "You can't explain why a steak is better to someone that's only ever eaten at McDonald's. You can't even explain why a bistro burger is better."
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                      • Profile picture of the author Sam Fowler
                        I agree with your basic statement. As a software engineer with a background in video production, I do all my design/dev work. I see so many sites with basic design problems, problems that are costing the owner $.

                        But I think it's a left brain/right brain issue in general. My brain's sort of in the middle - a creative engineer, but I'm working hard to be better at sales. Many IM gurus (I think) are sales guys that had a great idea and made it happen - not necessarily technical.

                        So I understand how some people are not technical in nature and would rather outsource than learn to use web tools. They can focus on the ideas, selling, etc.

                        But it's definitely nice to make any code change I want at any time.
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        • Profile picture of the author blur
          I've often wondered the same thing as the OP stated in the first post back on page 1.

          I just laugh a little bit each and every time someone posts "I opened my Wordpress file in Word and tried to edit it..."

          I also like: "I already secured a domain name thru GoDaddy so I don't need hosting"

          And.... "My wordpress got hacked and I don;t know why!"

          I see many sights that IM'rs put up in various CMS's (Content Management Systems) that are hacked and they don't even know it because the IM'r didn't take the time to learn how to secure their sites.

          As a side note I think it's an insult to the IM'ing industry that sell IM ebooks that are 45 pages of 'golden nugget ideas to boost blog traffic' are 10 pages of worn out ideas with 35 pages of how to install wordpress.

          I am just waiting for a website that distributes free wordpress templates to allow for SQL injection so the hijacker can hijack your sales. I bet you don't look at your templates for vulnerabilities, huh?

          I also laugh when I see a thred on this forum asking for 'immediate and desperate help' for a website issue in which they are 'losing a grip of cash.'

          Look, it's your online store/business and if you want to outsource your information to someone in india who not only makes money from doing your dirty work BUT ALsO makes money from selling passwords to hosting accounts - go ahead, just don't come crawling to me looking for help.

          I could go on...
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  • Profile picture of the author WareTime
    Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post


    Yes, you should ultimately outsource repetitive work, but you need the ability to do your own stuff when getting started. Later this information benefits you when it's time to outsource (knowing what can and can't be done, and how much time something should take).

    I strongly recommend that people focus on web design and basic copywriting before buying some $1000 course on how to "make money online".

    /rant

    EDIT: It's pretty clear the vast majority of people replying to this thread ignored the last two paragraphs of this post...
    Ok, paying the utmost attention to the last two paragraphs.

    You don't need to know basic html skills to get started. Blogger, squidoo and thousands of others let you build pages/sites without an iota of technical skill and monetize them with adsense, etc.

    Once you get money, pay someone to develop the next step.

    I will bet you 95 % of the very successful IM'ers aren't as technically proficient as the person that makes less than $1000/year here for their efforts.

    Technical skills are not necessary. Marketing and selling skills are. You ever meet a person that works in sales for most companies. They aren't that computer savvy are they?

    I'm a techie myself and it's easy for me to get caught up in the bit twiddling instead of making money parts of things.

    For this very reason, I belong to a membership site that teaches me sales techniques. Those are what I lack.

    Without sales and marketing skills, my techie abilities allows me to build sites that don't sell crap. They look nice though and I get to really spend a lot of time on them.

    Oh, and I can trouble shoot server performance issues as well. None of that makes me money, unless I sell those skills, which I already do in my day job.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
    I would like to trow my 2 cents in if it's ok. I wonder if Jeff Gordon knows how to work on the cars that he drives to win NASCAR races? Or if his crew chief knows how to drive better than Jeff Gordon?

    I don't need to know html or web design to be an Internet Marketer just like Jeff Gordon doesn't need to spend countless hours working on his cars to win races.

    You don't think Jeff Gordon said well i think i need to learn how to work on this engine before i race. I really doubt it.
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    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
      Originally Posted by spoon4160 View Post

      I would like to trow my 2 cents in if it's ok. I wonder if Jeff Gordon knows how to work on the cars that he drives to win NASCAR races? Or if his crew chief knows how to drive better than Jeff Gordon?
      Ever consider that he might know how... and that might have made it easier to get started in the lower leagues when he was young. I don't know if that is true, but the point is... having that ability might have made it easier to get started in racing with a low budget (repairing go-carts, basic race cars, or whatever).

      I strongly recommend the book "Outliers" to understand the little things that make a BIG difference over time. It talks about Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, top athletes, and other examples of how overlapping interests make a HUGE difference on the way to remarkable success.
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      "What would you do to make money online if you had to start over from scratch?"
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    • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
      Originally Posted by spoon4160 View Post

      I would like to trow my 2 cents in if it's ok. I wonder if Jeff Gordon knows how to work on the cars that he drives to win NASCAR races? Or if his crew chief knows how to drive better than Jeff Gordon?
      I'm pretty sure Jeff Gordon knows how to work on cars. I'd bet he's rebuilt an engine or two in his day. He may not currently do those things during a race, but I think a deep understanding of the technical aspects of the medium of his trade would help him.

      When Jeff Gordon is talking to his crew after pulling into the pit to "outsource" the work he needs done in his car, I think his knowledge of automobile mechanics helps him very well in communicating the nature of the problem to his crew.
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      :)

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  • Profile picture of the author JCTunes
    I've been reading "Moonlighting on the Internet" by Yanik Silver, and he outright admits that he doesn't know the first thing about creating a website, and that he would rather spend his time creating products and marketing them than get tied up with setting a website up. It also seems that quite a few of the more successful Warriors concentrate on product creation and marketing and let others [not always out of the country, BTW] use their skills to create the websites.

    Some folks are skilled at website design. Others are skilled at copywriting. Some are great at creating products at will. And still others can crank out articles to promote affiliate products. It would be nice to know how to set up a basic site, but it's not a requirement to being successful in IM.

    It boils down to what each person feels comfortable with. That's my 2 cents.
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    If there's a will, there's a way!

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  • Profile picture of the author blur
    So you create websites in which you honestly admit you know nothing about..

    ...am I to assume the products you create are of the same quality?
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    • Profile picture of the author JCTunes
      Actually Yanik said that in his book. You'd have to ask his customers whether his actual products are of good quality - which the ones I've seen definitely are. :-)

      Originally Posted by blur View Post

      So you create websites in which you honestly admit you know nothing about..

      ...am I to assume the products you create are of the same quality?
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      If there's a will, there's a way!

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  • Profile picture of the author TheMagicShow
    IM has so many different areas, that it is impossible to be good at everything. Majority do lack webdesign/programming skills and its best to delegate, your weakness to someone who is better at it than you are.

    Good 'ol economics, "opportunity cost", factors into this equation nicely.
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    " You can either give a man a fish and feed him for a day OR teach him how to catch a fish and it will feed him for a lifetime"

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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    And then there's that Will Rogers guy, who said, "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."
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    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author ksandra
    IMO, IM is always advertised as having a low barrier of entry and most people just jump into and by the time you realize there is so much more to it, you have to pick your battles in order to advance. As you succeed, ultimately everyone learn the basic because even to outsource you have to understand something about it. But at first, if you can afford it, outsourcing is the solution because you will never get your business off the ground. And when you succeed, it's a waste of your time to do it.

    those who came online to learn how to design websites are appropriately called web designer, the rest of us just want to sell and cash in.

    And as Michael Gerber says (paraphrasing) good technicians usually make poor business owners. I am way better off learning first how to be a business owner and when I have time and money, I can pick up web design as a hobby. I probably won't though
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    "Most people will tell you that they want to make money, without understanding this law. The only people who make money work in a mint. The rest of us must earn money." _Earl Nightingale

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  • Profile picture of the author Kella Bella
    Speaking of Steve Jobs-my personal opinion of him is that he really knows how to build a great pc but his marketing sense is awful. I really think that is the reason microsoft windows and pcs are in more homes than macs are. I have always thought he did a great disservice to apple computers by not marketing them as smart as Bill Gates marketed windows with pcs and got them in more homes. So yeah I read the original post but I'm not really convinced learning that stuff is a neccessity-I mean what really keeps a business afloat? Knowing how to build a web page or knowing how to make money over and over again? IMO the truth is you can build the best web site imaginable but if you can't get any traffic-who cares? And no I did not miss your point of the original post I am just saying maybe it's not as dire of an issue as you seem to think it is :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author countonuspr
      Instead of being frustrated that people don't want to learn basic web development skills I look at it as another way to increase my business. I can always do simple tasks for my customers and generate a fair profit for myself. What happens is the customer is happy because they get their squeeze page up and I am happy with the extra revenue.

      So let's say you get 40 of your customers or subscribers to pay you $250 to setup a squeeze page which I think is more than fair. Well with that one deal you have generated $10,000. If you have 5 customers take you up on this that is an extra $1,250 you never had before.

      I am not saying you sit there and don't help your customers figure this stuff out, but honestly some people just do not want to bother with this stuff. They ask all the time if they could pay someone to just set this up for them. I have training to help them set it up. Some people get that while others just get frustrated and don't do it.

      It is all in how you look at it. I view this as another revenue model for my business that also benefits the customer because they get what they want with less effort.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Funny ... all the excuses in this thread for not learning. For Heaven's Sake ... do not learn. It isn't necessary, you can hire someone, you're a big shot and big shots don't get their hands dirty with menial tasks.

    Learning the skills to run your business from the ground up is not grunt work. It's smart. It doesn't mean that you will always do everything yourself, but that you are able to do it all.

    Take outsourcing for example. If you are completely familiar with the tasks involved in a project, it is far easier to train or tell outsourcers exactly what you want and it is far easier not to get ripped off by outsourcers. That's just one benefit of knowing your business.

    Others are being able to fix something that goes wrong quickly and not having to wait until someone in China wakes up.

    In addition, as I mentioned earlier, having a skill set gives you the opportunity to sell your services for quick cash when all your IM efforts just aren't panning out, and I see a lot of that in this forum.

    Speaking about not panning out ... many of you here today will not be here next year, or at least will not be making any money. I see a lot of that. Some of you are quite young. What does your resume look like? Mine is about 5 pages long, if I cared to use one. What are your marketable skills and accomplishments? Anything? What can you or will you do when all else fails and you're about to be thrown out on the streets because you can't scare up enough IM cash to cover your living expenses.

    My bases have always been covered. I can write up precise specs for an outsourcer because I know what it takes to get my projects done. I can also smell outsourcer BS a mile away and thus avoid getting ripped off by them. I can sell services for fast cash, if necessary. I can get a better job than the average minimum wage job, if necessary.

    I don't buy the tech skills is a waste of time when you can be spending your time looking at the big picture and pushing all the right buttons to make everything happen. Why? Because with newbies, that's not what is happening. Many are just floundering around the forum, buying up the next shiny WSO to get rich quick and not really achieving that. They aren't really building sustainable businesses. They're out for a quick buck. Most of them have more than enough time to spend acquiring a skill set, but the BIG RED LETTERS on the pages all tell them they don't need any skills ... just do this and YOU TOO can go shopping for that Ferrari.

    Nothing I say or anyone else is going to convince them that knowledge and skills are powerful tools that will serve you well throughout your life. That's not why they're here. They want instant gratification ... throw some crap up and voila ... the cash comes rolling in.

    Good luck with that.

    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

    Why is it that so many web designers don't bother to learn marketing?
    I do. There's no point to creating my products if I can't market them. That being said, no one is going to have the capability of learning everything there is to learn, but learning nothing isn't very smart.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Funny ... all the excuses in this thread for not learning.
      No, what's funny is that I've been designing and building web sites for almost twenty years, and I still think there's no good reason for someone in IM to go out and learn web design.

      But a number of people seem to have leapt to the conclusion that I don't know web design.

      After all, don't I see the value of what I know for someone else?

      No. I don't. Only you can see the value that learning something holds for you. And if you don't want to learn it, I trust you to have made the right decision... for you.

      There's simply no compelling argument that successful IM requires web design skills. I feel no compulsion to go out and try to make everyone in the world live their lives, make their choices, and run their businesses more like I do.

      It would be a better world if they did, of course, but they'd have to do it of their own free will.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        No, what's funny is that I've been designing and building web sites for almost twenty years, and I still think there's no good reason for someone in IM to go out and learn web design.

        But a number of people seem to have leapt to the conclusion that I don't know web design.

        After all, don't I see the value of what I know for someone else?

        No. I don't. Only you can see the value that learning something holds for you. And if you don't want to learn it, I trust you to have made the right decision... for you.

        There's simply no compelling argument that successful IM requires web design skills. I feel no compulsion to go out and try to make everyone in the world live their lives, make their choices, and run their businesses more like I do.

        It would be a better world if they did, of course, but they'd have to do it of their own free will.
        And I don't either. It's just a discussion to me. I personally don't really care how people conduct their "businesses", but I will always believe that acquiring strong skills gives you an advantage in life. This isn't just about Internet Marketing. Way over half of these people aren't going to be doing this for very long. They will then have to do something else to support themselves. Try outsourcing a day job at McDonalds. If you spend your life learning as little as possible, I doubt that you're going to be successful at anything.
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  • Profile picture of the author Allen Payne
    I don't say that people shouldn't learn it but anything can be outsourced these days.Anyway IMO any IMer should know (at least)basic web development.It helps you a lot if you can do it by yourself.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay Zee
    I will keep this short. Talent is cheap. You can OWN a University graduate for less than 30k a year.

    The big money is in developing systems and putting people in place to run it.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by Kay Zee View Post

      I will keep this short. Talent is cheap. You can OWN a University graduate for less than 30k a year.

      The big money is in developing systems and putting people in place to run it.
      You bet.

      But in order to put people into place to run your systems, it takes money.

      Most of the WF members aren't making money and a good number of them don't have any money either.

      If you don't have the money to run the parts of the system, then you have to fill the roles in your system or go without that part.

      If you fill a role like copywriting or web design and do it badly, your business will suffer and it will be that much harder to get your system in place.

      If you can do a role or task (temporary or ongoing) well then your business doesn't suffer in that area. Heck, if you do it well you have the option of raising the cash you need by doing freelancing (temporary or ongoing).
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

        ...

        {copywriting}
        Copywriting isn't a business system. It's a creative skill performed by a craftsperson. Sure, good ones make a lot doing it, but in the scheme of capitalism, when the copywriter stops writing, they theoretically stop earning (although there are some residuals from certain creative pursuits but those residuals are invariably based upon someone else's business system to continue to derive value from the work of the creator).

        Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

        ...

        ... you have the option of raising the cash you need ...

        Bingo.

        You don't fill the void by doing all the jobs yourself. You raise money to buy the resources to do the jobs.

        You, the business owner, are capital. Your own, or from other sources... investors? Hello?

        "Mr. Investor, I have this product that I am developing that will, by my market estimates, generate no less than $15,000,000 in sales over the next 3 years at an EBITDA margin of 37%. I require $1,300,000 in capital to complete the product and delivery support systems based on this use of funds statement. I am willing to exchange this amount in 13 increments of $100,000 each for a block of cumulative convertible preferred stock debenture that carries a guaranteed dividend return of 8%, and is convertible to common stock on a 3:1 basis. Here are all the spreadsheets that show the breakout of the projected future net valuations of the company. What else would you require from me to become a partner in this venture?"
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
          Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

          Copywriting isn't a business system. It's a creative skill performed by a craftsperson.
          You quoted me out of context.

          I never said it was a business system. Neither is web design... audio editing... video production... or any number of tasks that IMers do.

          Even so, copywriting is vital to any business. That's why so many Fortune 1000 companies, book publishing companies, and more have their own in-house copywriting department.

          That's why good copywriting is the most expensive task to outsource.

          Copywriters write the marketing and advertising that a business uses. They write the sales scripts that your sales people, your telemarketing departments, and customer service support person should be using. If you are doing video sales pitches, then you should have someone with copywriting skills write the video pitch script.

          Either you act as your business's copywriter or you hire someone else.

          If you can't afford to pay thousands for quality copywriting then you either do without high-quality marketing or you have to figure how to write good copy yourself.

          You, the business owner, are capital. Your own, or from other sources... investors? Hello?

          "Mr. Investor, I have this product that I am developing that will, by my market estimates, generate no less than $15,000,000 in sales over the next 3 years at an EBITDA margin of 37%. I require $1,300,000 in capital to complete the product and delivery support systems based on this use of funds statement. I am willing to exchange this amount in 13 increments of $100,000 each for a block of cumulative convertible preferred stock debenture that carries a guaranteed dividend return of 8%, and is convertible to common stock on a 3:1 basis. Here are all the spreadsheets that show the breakout of the projected future net valuations of the company. What else would you require from me to become a partner in this venture?"
          Again, not relevant to the OP's specified group: Internet Marketers.

          Most IMers aren't incorporated so they don't have stock to offer an investor.

          Most IMers wouldn't understand half of what you just wrote because they don't know accounting terminology or how to write a business plan.

          Put the textbook down and look at what the OP stated. He's talking about beginning IMers.

          They have little or no money. They are a bootstrapping start-up. They have little or assets... definitely not a situation where a venture capitalist would be willing to put up 7 figures to finance the business.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Kay Zee View Post

      I will keep this short. Talent is cheap. You can OWN a University graduate for less than 30k a year.

      The big money is in developing systems and putting people in place to run it.
      You can RENT a University graduate for less than 30K a year until someone else pays him more than you do.

      Most of the newbies are not "developing systems and putting people in place to run them." They are like addicts ... consuming one WSO after another looking for a quick, easy buck. Many have the attention span of gerbils on crack, never focusing on anything long enough to realize any profits, because there's always something new that just caught their eye to try out.

      I do realize though that it is pointless to preach learning to many of them. Some are incapable of learning and some are just plain lazy.
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  • I'm with Rick on this one. An entrepreneur, both online and offline, should be familiar with the nitty gritty of his own business. I am not saying he should be an expert (that's what your employees/outsourcees are for), but at any rate you should be familiar with the basics of the technology behind your business.

    Example: a good Formula One driver knows quite a bit about engineering and how the car works under the bonet, so he can report back to his team of mechanics after the race and work together with them to improve the car. Sure, he wouldn't be able to build a car from scratch, but he does understand how the machinery works.
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  • Profile picture of the author blur
    The F$$$$d thing about this is that all IM'rs make fun of those newbies who don't know keywords and the such while web developers make fun of IM'rs who can't fix basic HTML.

    IM'rs need web dev's. Web devs don't need IM'rs. And, as of late, IM'ing has proven nothing more than to be spamming people in one form or another. I can't wait for the day where I can actually turn to the internet for information on a subject and not have to sift through websites full of crap sales pages.

    Understanding web development will make you a better IM'r because you can be original in your spam..er..marketing techniques. Not understand web dev will just make you the same as everyone else.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    2 cents into the kitty...

    A lot of IM tasks are pretty simple from a technological standpoint. So with that kind of business model, I can see an argument for learning how to do these steps in order to properly train a very low cost outsource staff. If labor is your biggest expense as the owner, it only makes sense to learn the basics to teach your dirt cheap overseas workers. That, or pay more for more advanced workers who don't need any instruction.

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
    The big disconnect here seems to be based on a lot of people still ignoring the OP. There are people that think they need to spout off advanced theory to sound smart, and then people that understand the reality for MOST people starting a business.

    I'm still waiting on MichaelHiles to reply to my post above. Something tells me he has lost interest in this topic... or maybe he is too busy working his "60 hours a week" while reading books on outsourcing.
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    "What would you do to make money online if you had to start over from scratch?"
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    • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
      Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

      I'm still waiting on MichaelHiles to reply to my post above.
      I'm waiting too. I can't wait to hear what he's going to come up with next.

      Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

      Something tells me he has lost interest in this topic...
      Well, his profile indicates "Current Activity: Viewing Thread RANT: Why do so many IMers lack basic web development?" ...so maybe he's cooking up something.
      Signature

      :)

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  • There's no other way around it: at the very beginning, you've got to get your hands dirty to get it all rolling. We all start off a garage (yes, even Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and the rest), and at those initial stages you need to learn the nitty gritty of your business.
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  • Profile picture of the author zoobie
    We are marketers not developers. Marketing/writing a business plan is what makes money not web site developing.
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  • Profile picture of the author AP
    It's a simple answer. I don't have the Time, I'm too busy making money.

    I'm over 50, my IT skills suck. I make great money marketing to Mom & Pop business owners who are happy to pay me $20,000, $30,000, $50,000+ per year marketing their business.

    I have (3) full time VA's who do my work.

    My best use of time is Face to Face with business owners selling my Marketing skills.

    Do I wish I had IT skills, heck yes. I do know Website Design, layout and conversion skills.

    I learned from the best:
    Jakob Nielsen: useit.com: Jakob Nielsen on Usability and Web Design

    Steve Krug: Advanced Common Sense Home
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by AP View Post

      It's a simple answer. I don't have the Time, I'm too busy making money.

      I'm over 50, my IT skills suck. I make great money marketing to Mom & Pop business owners who are happy to pay me $20,000, $30,000, $50,000+ per year marketing their business.

      I have (3) full time VA's who do my work.

      My best use of time is Face to Face with business owners selling my Marketing skills.

      Do I wish I had IT skills, heck yes. I do know Website Design, layout and conversion skills.

      I learned from the best:
      Jakob Nielsen: useit.com: Jakob Nielsen on Usability and Web Design

      Steve Krug: Advanced Common Sense Home
      AP, the original post asked why so many IMers don't have decent website design or copywriting skills.

      From what you described, you're good to go.

      IT skills are probably wishful thinking for a lot of marketers but the reality is... programming stuff is always easier to outsource to programmers than learn yourself.

      It's also something that isn't a core necessity to be a successful online marketer.

      Best of continuing luck to you and your business.

      Take care,

      Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    At 193 posts and counting as I type this, I'll confess I haven't read all 193. So if this point has already been made, I apologize...

    I can't buy into the idea that knowing everything about web design, coding and graphics is critical to success, I do think a basic familiarity is helpful.

    As Dennis said early on, I can create web pages with nothing more than Notepad. Back when I first got started, that was about the only option. Now I prefer to use other tools. But I can still do quick changes to themes or templates, saving time and money (especially opportunities lost while waiting).

    I'd never consider myself a coder, but I can hack a little javascript, php and even perl to tweak how a script works.

    As far as graphics go, I can touch up a photo or hack together a button, but for something that requires actual artistic talent I have to look another direction.

    Having the basic familiarity helps me recognize when a job is something I should let someone else tackle, yet gives me the freedom to dispose of the things I can do in a few minutes. And it helps me recognize when a sub is trying to blow smoke.

    Is basic web development skill critical? No.

    Is it helpful? Definitely.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      I am just starting my new business, a web design and hosting business. I landed 3 new clients last week cold calling on the phone... made $1,200. plus added $150 a month to my residual income... and I dont know how to build a website. I plan on making 1200 more next week AND adding 150 more.

      Mind you I have done this before.
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    • Profile picture of the author rickkettner
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      I enjoy a great, even heated, debate. But when someone resorts to personal attacks...
      I certainly don't feel as though I've made personal attacks. It may come across that way, but all I was really trying to do is explain that I get the notion of outsourcing (honestly, I do).

      When you say things like "you have an employees mindset" (over and over), how am I supposed to take that? Seems like a personal attack, and an inaccurate one at that.

      At the end of the day, we really don't disagree on the value of outsourcing, at least once an idea translates into a working business. So, the fact that it keeps coming up is very frustrating.

      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

      Is basic web development skill critical? No.

      Is it helpful? Definitely.
      I think this basically sums up the correct position. My initial post about it being "critical" was definitely a little extreme... that tends to happen in rants . I guess the fact that people jumped on that is to be expected, but this late in the conversation... I think it's pretty clear what I meant. However, I take full responsibility for the confusion.

      Anyway... we aren't going to agree on everything. Anything personal was not intended, so I apologize. This thread was never intended to be a big argument... I just sincerely believe that beginners can benefit from learning some web development basics, and felt an off the wall rant post might be what it takes to get that message out.

      It honestly frustrates me to see so many beginners struggling with hyped make-money systems. This industry has a HUGE black cloud over it, and I wish there was a way to change that... all while actually helping people figure out what it takes to get started.

      The easiest way for me to do that is to explain what worked for me. It may not be perfect for everyone, but IMO it's a hell of a lot better than some of the crap out there.

      Anyway, I think this rant is long over... I hope people understand my actual intentions with this thread. It clearly went off course... a few times.
      Signature
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      "What would you do to make money online if you had to start over from scratch?"
      Solution: Follow These Three Steps To Online Success (free eBook)

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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

        I certainly don't feel as though I've made personal attacks. It may come across that way, but all I was really trying to do is explain that I get the notion of outsourcing (honestly, I do).

        When you say things like "you have an employees mindset" (over and over), how am I supposed to take that? Seems like a personal attack, and an inaccurate one at that.

        At the end of the day, we really don't disagree on the value of outsourcing, at least once an idea translates into a working business. So, the fact that it keeps coming up is very frustrating.



        I think this basically sums up the correct position. My initial post about it being "critical" was definitely a little extreme... that tends to happen in rants . I guess the fact that people jumped on that is to be expected, but this late in the conversation... I think it's pretty clear what I meant. However, I take full responsibility for the confusion.

        Anyway... we aren't going to agree on everything. Anything personal was not intended, so I apologize. This thread was never intended to be a big argument... I just sincerely believe that beginners can benefit from learning some web development basics, and felt an off the wall rant post might be what it takes to get that message out.

        It honestly frustrates me to see so many beginners struggling with hyped make-money systems. This industry has a HUGE black cloud over it, and I wish there was a way to change that... all while actually helping people figure out what it takes to get started.

        The easiest way for me to do that is to explain what worked for me. It may not be perfect for everyone, but IMO it's a hell of a lot better than some of the crap out there.

        Anyway, I think this rant is long over... I hope people understand my actual intentions with this thread. It clearly went off course... a few times.

        Well this is certainly something I can appreciate.

        Look, you're a passionate guy, someone else said we're probably not dissimilar in many ways - maybe true.

        My response was unquestionably based on your statement that it was critical to longterm success. That's it. I don't believe that it is critical. The root of critical is 'crisis'... you cannot survive without it.

        You've conceded that one can survive and even become successful without it, but it can help.

        On this we agree.

        We also agree on replication of labor (the form... outsourcing or simply building an organization... is immaterial).

        I apologize for phrasing things in such a fashion that made you feel that I was also attacking you. That certainly wasn't the intention, but likewise, I take responsibility for the communication because as we say in NLP land.... the meaning of any communication is the response that you get... not what you meant.

        It's all good man. Here's to a happy and healthy Friday night with friends and/or family, enjoying the fruits of our efforts.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

    Ok, so this is something that has been bugging me for a while. Why is it that so many IMers don't bother to learn basic web design? The common excuse seems to be the ol' "I should outsource this" mentality, but I can't imagine someone outsourcing the ability to "type" or "read".

    It's the 21st century, and this industry is built around the Internet. Learning how to create, publish, and maintain your own website is absolutely critical to long-term success.

    Yes, you should ultimately outsource repetitive work, but you need the ability to do your own stuff when getting started. Later this information benefits you when it's time to outsource (knowing what can and can't be done, and how much time something should take).

    I strongly recommend that people focus on web design and basic copywriting before buying some $1000 course on how to "make money online".

    /rant

    EDIT: It's pretty clear the vast majority of people replying to this thread ignored the last two paragraphs of this post...
    Hi Rick,

    First, you need to fix your signature - not that I'm the signature police, but the forum rules require sigs to be in the default font size.

    You're basically restating something I've posted about over and over through the years here. I do firmly believe that, when just starting out, newcomers to this industry should focus on developing basic technical skills and knowledge, that will help them as decision makers in the future.

    My purpose in recommending this though, is that newcomers invariably have more time than money, so putting together an educational plan as well as a business plan makes good sense at that stage of their career. However I disagree that it's "Critical" to anyone's long-term success. Helpful? Certainly, but not critical - it's not going to make or break someone.

    Over the years I've worked with many successful marketers who haven't got a clue about the technical side of things. Their success stems from their ability to manage their business activities and hire those who are best at the technical issues involved.

    Here's a simple analogy - an executive needs to make some color copies, collated and ready for binding, but his secretary has the day off. So he stands around the copier scratching his head until someone else's secretary comes along and bails him out.

    Successful managers are not successful because they excel at doing all of the various jobs involved in his or her business - they're successful because they understand how to manage it, accept input on any given issue and then make an informed decision.

    And just to clarify, there's really nothing all that basic to web design anymore - over time it becomes more and more complex. Fortunately, there is a broad and diverse pool of talented freelancers that are willing to do the work at very reasonable prices.

    As to the last paragraph you wrote, I think that it's more important for folks to learn about each aspect of IM so that when that $1K course comes along they can make an informed decision about purchasing it.

    I'm fairly certain that knowledge of basic web design is not going to be a factor in making that decision.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post


    EDIT: It's pretty clear the vast majority of people replying to this thread ignored the last two paragraphs of this post...
    No - it's not that. It's that you basically stated that it's CRITICAL for everyone to learn to make websites. That's obviously NOT true for many people.

    Your general message is something most people agree on, so you fighting people who outsource by saying they didn't read your post is what is causing the responses.

    Like Jay, I create some of my sites and outsource some. We're an example of what you're saying to do - but if I was starting out from scratch now, I definitely would NOT be building my own sites.

    It's a full time job keeping up with web technologies and seo, so even though I find them interesting and like to know what's going on, it doesn't make sense for me to spend my time making them, it would seriously limit my scalability.

    If 10 people ask me to help their business and they all need websites - I'd have to say no if I intended to build them all myself.

    So, while I HAVE done what you're suggesting, I definitely wouldn't suggest that it's right for people starting out now. I started 10 years ago so websites were the main focus back then - now they're a commodity and the marketing and strategy are what make the difference.

    Andy
    Signature

    nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I must confess, I find myself somewhat in agreement with both sides. Rick is right in that, in the beginning, most folks have to do things themselves, but not necessarily because they don't have the money to outsource or hire staff, but rather, because they don't have the business knowledge to know what they don't know, so they don't know what they need to learn.

    Learning takes time, and most people want to get started as quickly as possible. They don't know that the way they start their business could trap them in their business, and in reality, many don't care. Getting started is the most important thing to them, so his advice is appropriate for a certain group of beginners. And of course, not everyone aspires to run a big business, so Rick's advice speaks to them as well.

    The flaw in his presentation and argument, is that he frames it as a fundamental requirement rather than an optional skill that's worthwhile to have in his opinion.

    In my own business, which was actually started more by accident than design, I learned to do everything myself. Michael is right in that, that is a trap and it is being your own employee, not a business owner. As my business evolved I realized I was the business. If I died the business would die. All it would take is for my domains to expire and my wife would lose all my income.

    Extricating yourself from a system (or lack of a system as Michael might say) that relies on you at every turn isn't easy. I've spent a lot of time planning and automating to change my underlying business model, and I still have a long way to go. That has taken time away from developing new businesses, new products, and networking - all of which would be a more profitable use of my time.

    This has been one of the most fascinating threads I've read in quite some time. A lot of people have made worthwhile contributions to it, and I thank all the participants, but I do want to publicly single out Michael Hiles and say thanks for giving me the most to think about.
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    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      Hi Rick,

      ...However I disagree that it's "Critical" to anyone's long-term success. Helpful? Certainly, but not critical - it's not going to make or break someone. ....
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      No - it's not that. It's that you basically stated that it's CRITICAL for everyone to learn to make websites. That's obviously NOT true for many people.

      Your general message is something most people agree on, so you fighting people who outsource by saying they didn't read your post is what is causing the responses.

      ...

      Bingo. All of my responses were based on the position that knowing how to do your own web development is critical... not somewhat important.... not helpful... not occasionally resourceful... but ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL TO YOUR LONG-TERM SUCCESS.

      Not startup success. Not short-term success.... ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL TO YOUR LONG-TERM SUCCESS. Quite a dogmatic assertion, huh?

      Originally Posted by rickkettner View Post

      Ok, so this is something that has been bugging me for a while. Why is it that so many IMers don't bother to learn basic web design? The common excuse seems to be the ol' "I should outsource this" mentality, but I can't imagine someone outsourcing the ability to "type" or "read".

      It's the 21st century, and this industry is built around the Internet. Learning how to create, publish, and maintain your own website is absolutely critical to long-term success.

      Yes, you should ultimately outsource repetitive work, but you need the ability to do your own stuff when getting started. Later this information benefits you when it's time to outsource (knowing what can and can't be done, and how much time something should take).

      I strongly recommend that people focus on web design and basic copywriting before buying some $1000 course on how to "make money online".

      /rant

      EDIT: It's pretty clear the vast majority of people replying to this thread ignored the last two paragraphs of this post...
      Quoted for posterity.



      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I must confess, I find myself somewhat in agreement with both sides. Rick is right in that, in the beginning, most folks have to do things themselves, but not necessarily because they don't have the money to outsource or hire staff, but rather, because they don't have the business knowledge to know what they don't know, so they don't know what they need to learn.

      Learning takes time, and most people want to get started as quickly as possible. They don't know that the way they start their business could trap them in their business, and in reality, many don't care. Getting started is the most important thing to them, so his advice is appropriate for a certain group of beginners. And of course, not everyone aspires to run a big business, so Rick's advice speaks to them as well.

      The flaw in his presentation and argument, is that he frames it as a funda