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The Money Is NOT In The List

by steveweber
62 replies
I loved Kern's video, "The Mysterious Stranger". He points out the money is NOT in the list....that's BS he says.

And he has a killer point:

If the money was just "in the list", anyone could be a millionaire who bought a $39 CD full of a million addresses.

The point here is that not all lists are created equal.
#build a list #list #list building #money
  • Profile picture of the author Dave d
    So the money is actually in the list. If your list is good enough ie responsive.
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    • Profile picture of the author troy23
      Of course it is not in the list. Imagine if stores only sold to regular customers. The money and the challenge is to sell to everyone all over the web. If the bulk of profit comes from a list then you don't have a business.
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      • Profile picture of the author steveweber
        Well, the idea (with respect to internet marketing) is to keep building the list and sell to the list...things are much more productive that way.

        And yes, his point is that it's not the SIZE of the list, but how responsive they are.
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        • Profile picture of the author ovidiu
          Originally Posted by steveweber View Post

          Well, the idea (with respect to internet marketing) is to keep building the list and sell to the list...things are much more productive that way.

          And yes, his point is that it's not the SIZE of the list, but how responsive they are.

          There you go, you said it yourself: the money IS in the list.
          "moenys' in the list" is just an expression and it became popular simply because it takes out only the essence of the more complicated process of selling to a list.

          As far as Frank Kern is concerned, even since I had to opt-in to get a pdf where he showed me the finger... I lost interest in his teachings.

          The reason he said "the money is not in the list" is because this expression is already popular. Adding the word "NOT" keeps it simple, sounds familiar and challenges the original one, simply because it negates it.

          My $0.02.
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          • Profile picture of the author Andrew M
            Originally Posted by ovidiu View Post

            There you go, you said it yourself: the money IS in the list.
            It is called an expression and it became popular simply because it takes out only the essence of the more complicated process of selling to a list.

            As far as Frank Kern is concerned, even since I had to opt-in to get a pdf where he showed me the finger... I lost interest in his teachings.

            The reason he said "the money is not in the list" is because this expression is already popular. Adding the word "NOT" keeps it simple, sounds familiar and challenges the original one, simply because it negates it.

            My $0.02.
            You said it!

            I'm a big fan of Frank Kern. I have really enjoyed watching him take the teachings of direct marketing giants like Dan Kennedy and apply them to IM.

            Naturally, in order to position his product in the most competitive light possible, he is going to use the old 'iconoclast' trick and openly go against the grain.

            It makes the whole campaign immediately stand out in peoples minds. Lots of people do it. I watched Ryan Deiss do it too with his Video Sales Letter pitch...where he says that the long form sales letter is 'dead'.

            Its about cutting through the white noise IMHO.

            There is just sooo much STUFF out there its crazy. You have to do something to break through the chatter and stand out.

            Taking an assumed 'truism' and tilting against it has been proven to work, and so my hat is off to those IMers that have used it well.

            Is the money REALLY in the list?

            The truth is that it is and yet it isn't. It's BOTH.

            At the risk of sounding like some kind of lame zen koan, the answer to most questions is usually "It Depends"

            The money is in the list, provided that the list has the right ingredients.
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by Andrew! View Post

              Is the money REALLY in the list?

              The truth is that it is and yet it isn't. It's BOTH.
              The money is IN the relationship. The relationship is WITH the person. The person is ON the list.

              Imagine that the money is in a bucket, but someone picks up the bucket and goes to the amusement park where he gets on a roller coaster.

              Is the money in the roller coaster?

              Well, technically, yes... but you're sort of missing the point.
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              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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              • Profile picture of the author Andrew M
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                The money is IN the relationship. The relationship is WITH the person. The person is ON the list.

                Imagine that the money is in a bucket, but someone picks up the bucket and goes to the amusement park where he gets on a roller coaster.

                Is the money in the roller coaster?

                Well, technically, yes... but you're sort of missing the point.
                Agreed. Hence why I ended the post with "the money is in the list, PROVIDED that it has the right ingredients"

                I.E. profitable, know, like & trust you, positive relationship with list, etc.

                Anyways, sounds like we're in agreement in principle.
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by Andrew! View Post

                  Agreed.
                  I was agreeing, too.
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                  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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            • Profile picture of the author ovidiu
              Originally Posted by Andrew! View Post

              You said it!

              I'm a big fan of Frank Kern. I have really enjoyed watching him take the teachings of direct marketing giants like Dan Kennedy and apply them to IM.

              Naturally, in order to position his product in the most competitive light possible, he is going to use the old 'iconoclast' trick and openly go against the grain.

              It makes the whole campaign immediately stand out in peoples minds. Lots of people do it. I watched Ryan Deiss do it too with his Video Sales Letter pitch...where he says that the long form sales letter is 'dead'.

              Its about cutting through the white noise IMHO.

              There is just sooo much STUFF out there its crazy. You have to do something to break through the chatter and stand out.

              Taking an assumed 'truism' and tilting against it has been proven to work, and so my hat is off to those IMers that have used it well.

              Is the money REALLY in the list?

              The truth is that it is and yet it isn't. It's BOTH.

              At the risk of sounding like some kind of lame zen koan, the answer to most questions is usually "It Depends"

              The money is in the list, provided that the list has the right ingredients.

              Yes, it depends.. The more of a visionary you are, the more you realize the complexity of IM and you see what works when and why..

              Taking "the money's in the list literally" is like saying "the money's in the product". Well... come to think of it, it IS!

              Remember biology class? When the teacher would come up and tell you how "the liver is crucial because we'd die if someone took it out". Yeah, it's crucial but so are the heart, brain, eyes and all the others. They all work together.

              Agreed on what you said about Kern. Personally I really like Ryan Deiss because IMO he gives great content. But I have a feeling Frank Kern is selling more.. He appeals more to the masses, i think. Ryan seems to speak to those who have at least a few trials&errors in IM.
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              • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
                The money is in the relationships you build with people.

                That might be an email list of subscribers or people you talk to in person.

                But the bottom line is if they trust you and they trust your recommendations, your products and services then that's a very real asset.

                At its core the information marketing business (like most businesses) is about people.

                Kindest regards,
                Andrew Cavanagh
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              • Profile picture of the author JAIDEEP2959
                Subscribers must have enough faith in you to buy your recommended products.

                Most of the list members stop reading messages after some days, so emails must be relevant and interesting.
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      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        Originally Posted by troy23 View Post

        If the bulk of profit comes from a list then you don't have a business.
        Better break the bad news to Agora Inc.


        Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author Soapyshoe
          Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

          Better break the bad news to Agora Inc.


          Frank
          What?

          Agora is a list-building juggernaut!
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  • Profile picture of the author Clark056
    I keep email lists of customers only, this allows us to have a smaller more responsive group of people to market to. It also helps that we've kept this list from the start, so many people have gotten to know us / our services over the years.

    Generic lists aren't worth anything. Co-reg and similar lists are a bit better, but still often have no value for marketers, especially when you venture into very specific niches online.

    Clark
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  • Profile picture of the author raj5
    Yeh steveweber, I think frank kerns video about the mysterious stanger was brill.
    The money is in the relationship you have with your list, you build a strong relationship with your list then your list becomes responsive.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
    That goes with most things, quality over quantity. I would rather have 1,000 proven buyers then 10,000 buyers that are not targeted.
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    • Profile picture of the author steveweber
      Oh absolutely! In fact, I bet just 100 targeted, former buyers would out-do the 10,000 non targeted.
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      • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
        Originally Posted by steveweber View Post

        Oh absolutely! In fact, I bet just 100 targeted, former buyers would out-do the 10,000 non targeted.
        Steve,

        I made a conscious decision back in 97 to have a very small yet highly responsive list which would support my lifestyle and business model.

        My list is low four figures, and half of it gets mailed once a quarter, in other words about 4 offers a year per person, at a relatively LOW price point.

        It has been very responsive for over a decade now and it supports a lifestyle, one of happiness over material possessions. But I have no concerns or problems if someone else's lifestyle is a big mansion with scuba divers cleaning out their fish tanks.

        I prefer tennis, golf and walks in the park and on the beaches. Lunches with friends, entertainment with family and community involvement through volunteering at the soup kitchen and community center.

        With a small list, I'm able to maintain contact and get personal in some cases (those that want to)...however, I have been known to JV with a person with a large list, IF my product fits and is something the big list holder would want to offer.

        LISTS most certainly can be important and they CAN be the "money". It is true off line as well and in looking at it closely, most "Off LINE" IM is related to helping the off line busines person establish and "milk" their house lists.

        The question I'd ask is, what do you want your list to do? How often? And for what reason?

        My answer back in 97 was "to support my lifestyle of happiness".

        gjabiz
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  • Profile picture of the author chibuzor
    It's not every list. What we should aim for is to get a responsive list of subscribers who are actually ready to see our offers. You see, a list of 200 responsive optins in far better than a list of 10,000 untargeted optins.

    So, in a nutshell, "the money is in the responsive list".
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Keltsch
    Frank is absolutely right the money is not in the list it is in the relationship you have with your list. In other words do you treat your list like a meal ticket, constantly sending offer after offer? No, of course not respect your list and your list will reward you.

    Steven
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan79
    Yes, all lists are not created equal, it need to be targeted to get good results.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan D
    Banned
    I'm assuming that there was more to the video, because I would've thought that it goes without saying.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Keltsch
    Yes you're right there is more to the story,

    Frank telling his story of his early years as an Internet Marketer, and how he was actually afraid of his list. Imagine that, big time Marketer, Frank Kern was scared of the people he was selling too. Frank went on to tell us he was afraid that someone would call him up and complain about the junk he was selling. It was as if he was willing it to happen, weird. Actually someone did call him out on the stuff he was selling. And he had to be honest with himself. So Frank decided to change and started building a relationship with his list by developing products that actually helped people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan D
    Banned
    I think I maybe remember a variation of the story when he first launched that course..underachiver maybe?

    He said that someone called him out because he was selling GRQ products and never actually built a real business outside of that. Not sure if it's the same story.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Keltsch
    Yes, I think that is right. It was about six months ago.

    Anyway I get email offer after offer, and it sucks.

    I just don't believe you buy a $47 product and start pulling in 20k a month. Marketers need to provide value and the truth. I understand people are lazy. People need to understand, start any business, online or offline, takes time and knowledge.
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    • Profile picture of the author steveweber
      Just a note about Frank's video... In my opinion it was one of most well done product promotion videos ever. Heck, I've watched the thing 3 times now
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      • Profile picture of the author Terri LC
        I was a little confused...........he says that at first, but as you started to get into the program he starts to talk about how you need to build your list.

        I agree with a previous poster who says, its about quality, not quantity.

        The money is in the list if you know how to utilize it properly!

        Cheers,
        TLC
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        • Profile picture of the author steveweber
          Yeah, his point is that it's not "just" the list.
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          • Profile picture of the author ChrisHunt
            The core of it is that the REPEAT custom is more profitable then a first time buyer...

            There are 3 ways to make more money in your business:

            Increase first time sales (paying for adverting for example)
            Increase frequency of sales (using a list for example)
            Increase sales value (cross selling, up selling for example)
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            • Profile picture of the author butters
              So really, the money is in the list... Because if you don't have a list then how can you build a relationship with a list? This is one of these things which is just a stupid comment to say, there are lots of factors which make it successful, if you don't do them all then it fails. No one thing makes you money, it's lots of little bits which makes the money.
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            • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
              Originally Posted by ChrisHunt View Post

              The core of it is that the REPEAT custom is more profitable then a first time buyer...
              Again - isn't that just basic knowledge?

              Every IM newbie gets told "most of your customer value is in the backend" hence why everyone knows about Aweber and similar really quickly - because it's always been the case that making an initial sale is just the start of the value and running a loss-leader on the front end is common because the main value is at the back.

              This is also why everyone always tells newbie affiliate marketers to make sure they add value and grab the customer details rather than do simple redirects.

              This is all old, basic IM knowledge that's been the same since I started IM over a decade ago.

              How come people are talking about it like it's new or something different?

              Did I miss something? I'm really not getting this.
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              nothing to see here.

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              • Profile picture of the author ChrisHunt
                Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

                "Originally Posted by ChrisHunt
                The core of it is that the REPEAT custom is more profitable then a first time buyer..."

                Again - isn't that just basic knowledge
                There's a difference between focusing on the list and the repeat customer...

                ...the list is a tactic, the concept of the repeat customer is strategic and can be used in many situations. Basic, maybe, important to know the difference.

                Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

                Of course you can focus on 'the list', 'the relationships', 'the behaviour' and 100 other ways to say the same thing.
                There's a hell of a difference between creating a relationship and creating the desire to buy. Differences like these are part of the art of marketing. Understanding your prospect, their needs, desires, triggers and fears. That understanding creates the thrust of the message, creates desire, creates action!

                A clown can create a good relationship, people don't buy from them!

                "People don't buy from clowns."
                -Claude C. Hopkins
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                • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                  The money is where the money is. It's your job to convince the money's keeper that what you have is of more value to them than the amount of money they have to trade you for it.
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                  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
                    Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                    The money is where the money is. It's your job to convince the money's keeper that what you have is of more value to them than the money they have to trade you for it.
                    Nooooo... you got it all wrong, Lance.

                    The money is in the free stuff you give them up front, to convince them there is more behind the curtain
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                • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                  Originally Posted by ChrisHunt View Post

                  There's a difference between focusing on the list and the repeat customer...

                  ...the list is a tactic, the concept of the repeat customer is strategic and can be used in many situations. Basic, maybe, important to know the difference.

                  There's a hell of a difference between creating a relationship and creating the desire to buy. Differences like these are part of the art of marketing. Understanding your prospect, their needs, desires, triggers and fears. That understanding creates the thrust of the message, creates desire, creates action!

                  A clown can create a good relationship, people don't buy from them!

                  "People don't buy from clowns."
                  -Claude C. Hopkins
                  Of course - but again you can split all of this stuff down to microscopic detail and make it all very complicated and even convince people that they need your help in order to understand it - if you're trying to sell information to them.

                  The thing is...... if you consider yourself a marketer - these are just things you would learn from picking up any decent books on the subject from a good marketer from the last 50 years.

                  But there are many people coming into IM being bombarded with hype and 'secrets' from people praying on their naivety to charge them crazy prices for basic marketing information packaged as something else.

                  This thread is focused on someone talking about the IM generalisation of "the money is in the list". It's a catchy phrase and was created by people selling list building information. For every person saying the money is in the list, there are 5 others saying "the money is not in the list" and talking about some other aspect of IM.

                  It's all just people trying to sound different to what they think people are being told.

                  The information rarely changes.

                  This subject is a classic example of how you can wrap people around the axle on the smallest things.

                  These quotes/sayings/myths, whatever you want to call them, are just sound bites designed to hook in people who think they're missing out.

                  The thing is - apart from basic psychology and business practices, the rest is up to personal preference and conducting your business in the way YOU want. You can choose to build relationships with people on an email list - or not. There are no rules. You can do what you like.

                  If you look around you'll probably notice that:

                  1 - people saying this is all complicated are generally selling information.

                  2 - people who say it's basic marketing concepts are not trying to sell you anything.

                  With all that said - I do understand the value of hearing the same thing but at the right time or in the right way so that you finally get it - but that's different to it needing to be packaged as a secret.

                  You can tell a lot about people by how they try to sell information and how they position it.
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                  nothing to see here.

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                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                    Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

                    The thing is...... if you consider yourself a marketer - these are just things you would learn from picking up any decent books on the subject from a good marketer from the last 50 years.
                    This is sort of like saying "if you consider yourself a doctor, these are things you would learn from any decent medical text."

                    Well, if you're asking about these things, I'm betting you're not a doctor.

                    And if you're selling an ebook about them, I'm betting your target market isn't doctors, either.

                    And while becoming a marketer is rather less complicated and difficult than becoming a doctor, it's still not exactly simple and easy.
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                    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                      This is sort of like saying "if you consider yourself a doctor, these are things you would learn from any decent medical text."

                      Well, if you're asking about these things, I'm betting you're not a doctor.

                      And if you're selling an ebook about them, I'm betting your target market isn't doctors, either.

                      And while becoming a marketer is rather less complicated and difficult than becoming a doctor, it's still not exactly simple and easy.
                      It's as simple and easy as you make it.

                      If you want to be a marketer there ARE fundamental concepts which summarised, encapsulated and discussed in many texts over the last few decades.

                      We're not talking heart surgery here - this thread is about the "the money is 'not' in the list" generalisation.

                      Sure it's easy to go off on an intellectual hypothetical debate and do ego measuring to see who can make their perspective sound the best, but this was a simple thing - whether the money is in the list or not.

                      To which of course the answer is (as has been said) - yes, and no - it depends.

                      You can make it simple and clear based on a specific application or you can complicate it and debate it in generalisations.

                      But there's no point.....

                      It only actually matters when a specific person applies it to their specific business.

                      Without the context - the content is meaningless.

                      I can't believe I've even wasted so much time discussing this, so I'm going to bow out of this thread now and let anyone who cares to keep it going get on with it.
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                      nothing to see here.

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                  • Profile picture of the author ChrisHunt
                    Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

                    Of course - but again you can split all of this stuff down to microscopic detail and make it all very complicated and even convince people that they need your help in order to understand it - if you're trying to sell information to them.

                    The thing is...... if you consider yourself a marketer - these are just things you would learn from picking up any decent books on the subject from a good marketer from the last 50 years.

                    But there are many people coming into IM being bombarded with hype and 'secrets' from people praying on their naivety to charge them crazy prices for basic marketing information packaged as something else.

                    This thread is focused on someone talking about the IM generalisation of "the money is in the list". It's a catchy phrase and was created by people selling list building information. For every person saying the money is in the list, there are 5 others saying "the money is not in the list" and talking about some other aspect of IM.

                    It's all just people trying to sound different to what they think people are being told.

                    The information rarely changes.

                    This subject is a classic example of how you can wrap people around the axle on the smallest things.

                    These quotes/sayings/myths, whatever you want to call them, are just sound bites designed to hook in people who think they're missing out.

                    The thing is - apart from basic psychology and business practices, the rest is up to personal preference and conducting your business in the way YOU want. You can choose to build relationships with people on an email list - or not. There are no rules. You can do what you like.

                    If you look around you'll probably notice that:

                    1 - people saying this is all complicated are generally selling information.

                    2 - people who say it's basic marketing concepts are not trying to sell you anything.

                    With all that said - I do understand the value of hearing the same thing but at the right time or in the right way so that you finally get it - but that's different to it needing to be packaged as a secret.

                    You can tell a lot about people by how they try to sell information and how they position it.
                    I'm not trying to sell anything... yet. And if I was I wouldn't be explaining it, people don't pay for explanations, they pay (in this market) to make money online... FAST! The truth is it's highly unlikely you'll get rich fast. It's very possible to get rich, it takes a few steps.

                    And Absolutely it's a sound bite, the best way to sell information products, tell the prospect you have what they think will solve their problem and then give them the real solution.

                    It's not the information that changes it's the CONTEXT that changes, so for example a long form sales letter is now on a video, the copy's the same, used differently.

                    ...people don't pay for the information they pay for the outcome, the solution to their EXACT problem.

                    Read 101 business books (I'd recommend it), don't expect any results any time soon however, it's a large jigsaw puzzle. Gurus get paid to break down the steps in to the simplest form so they can be executed quickly and get IMMEDIATE results...

                    ...how many hours a day have most people got to do online marketing? Does everyone really want to learn EVERYTHING or do they just want to be guided in the direction that allows them to quickly make enough money to give up their 9-5 and then build on that to become rich as quickly as possible.

                    Why do they say different things? The environment is different, different business models require different skills. For example someone making money doing affiliate sales via Facebook Ads needs different skill to someone selling information products from a blog...

                    ...they both make money, one uses a list another doesn't.

                    You always want to build a relationship with the list, you need to define what sort of relationship - a relationship where you're seen as a solution provider.

                    There are numerous factors that decide how a business is run, environment, customers, resources, competitors, history, market growth, market saturation, direction of the company etc. The customer doesn't care how you want to run it, the market doesn't care how you want to run it. Run it the way that gets results!

                    "1 - people saying this is all complicated are generally selling information.

                    2 - people who say it's basic marketing concepts are not trying to sell you anything."

                    Not the best gurus - Frank Kern? He always says he stupid - whoever thinks Frank Kern is stupid is stupid.
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                    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                      See, here's the thing about people selling information.

                      Getting information that is worth selling... is hard.

                      It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of thought. It takes a lot of effort.

                      Primarily because you have to understand what people who are not you are doing.

                      But information that works for you and only you?

                      That's pretty easy to get.

                      This is why people make WSOs about what they did and how they did it, and then other people buy them, but those other people can't do the same thing.

                      Bob made $300 a day like this. You can see he made $300 a day with it. He can prove it. Maybe you know Bob personally, and can swear on a stack of bibles that he made $300 a day with it. And then Joe gets Bob's WSO, and it's exactly what Bob did, and Joe does exactly what Bob did... and can prove it... but he doesn't make $300 a day.

                      Because Joe is not Bob.

                      The question of what both Joe AND Bob can do to make $300 a day is much harder to answer than the question of what just one of them could do. The answer that ultimately works for Joe is probably not going to work for Bob... unless and until someone can identify exactly what it is about BOTH methods that is working.

                      And those of us who are selling information, and who aspire to sell even better information... the kind of information that has a multi-million dollar launch... cannot stop at what works for us.

                      Because if we do, we're stuck at a $47 price tag and a bunch of WSOs.
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                      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                      • Profile picture of the author steveweber
                        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post


                        Bob made $300 a day like this. You can see he made $300 a day with it. He can prove it. Maybe you know Bob personally, and can swear on a stack of bibles that he made $300 a day with it. And then Joe gets Bob's WSO, and it's exactly what Bob did, and Joe does exactly what Bob did... and can prove it... but he doesn't make $300 a day.
                        Like I have said before, show me 10 different successful online marketers and I'll show you 10 different twists on making money online.

                        I tell my students all the time that they could follow me around for a week, look over my shoulder all day long, take notes, take video....try to duplicate everything we've done...and it just won't work as well as it works for us.

                        You gotta MATCH your strategy to your personality.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Steven Keltsch View Post

      I just don't believe you buy a $47 product and start pulling in 20k a month.
      You're right. What actually happens is:

      - You buy a $47 product
      - You apply your own common sense and experience
      - You do a whole lot of work
      - You make a little money
      - You pay attention and fix what isn't doing the job
      - You make a little more money
      - You keep working for a long time and making a little money
      - You keep fixing things that make you a little more money
      - Lots of time passes and you don't quit
      - You start pulling in 20k a month

      And here's how the WSO thing works.

      - You make a WSO
      - You say "do all these things and make money"
      - Nobody buys your WSO
      - You start removing things from the list
      - People start buying your WSO
      - Eventually it just says "make money"
      - More people are buying than ever before
      - You don't put those things on your next WSO

      If you look back at "how it really works," this is the part where you fix something and it makes you a little more money.

      If the buyers bought honest WSOs, the sellers would post honest WSOs. But the sellers don't, so the buyers don't, and different sellers are comfortable with different levels of removing honesty from their WSOs.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post


        This is all old, basic IM knowledge that's been the same since I started IM over a decade ago.

        How come people are talking about it like it's new or something different?

        Did I miss something? I'm really not getting this.
        Because Andy, there's a lot of beginner marketers following Frank, and posting in this forum.

        Yes, it's basic to you and I, but not to them.

        But I agree, it's also common sense too. Nobody realistically thinks "all I need is to get 1000 email addresses and I'll be rich".

        But the way Frank markets himself, and to who, allows him to twist basic common sense and marketing principles which even candidates of Junior Apprentice consider old hat, and make it seem like a revelation.

        I applaud him. It's smart. I actually follow his marketing for tips...not for the actual content itself.

        Having said all that - I do think people overlook the gravity of developing a relationship with their subscribers...

        ...but on the other hand, I also know that you don't need to become best friends and have swinging parties in order to sell a lot of stuff to your list.

        The term relationship is often misconstrued in this context.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

          But the way Frank markets himself, and to who, allows him to twist basic common sense and marketing principles which even candidates of Junior Apprentice consider old hat, and make it seem like a revelation.
          It doesn't matter how many times you've heard it, what you really need is to get it.

          It's extremely rare that I will get it the first time that I hear something. Most of it is stuff that I've heard before, over and over again, but it just didn't click with me.

          Frank's worth what he charges because he makes it click for people. Any idiot can say it. Getting it to click is a whole different thing.
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          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author steveweber
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post


            Frank's worth what he charges because he makes it click for people. Any idiot can say it. Getting it to click is a whole different thing.
            Very insightful!...one of the best quotes in the thread! .....IMO.

            Plus, Frank's a firm believer in giving away some of his best stuff for free. That strategy has been a huge factor in his success.
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            • Profile picture of the author qualityoffer
              Frank Kern is one of the best in terms of creating relationship and a following online. It has to do with relationship, trust, people liking you, personality, being a trusted friend/advisor, and all that must come through in all your communication with your list. I've seen many marketers mess this up and I very quickly unsubscribe. People appreciate you more when you give first without expectation, its true offline so why not so much online? I think things are changing

              Tony
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Did anyone actually think it wasn't about the relationships?

    People seem to be talking about this like it's some weird secret that's been uncovered.......

    Did anyone really think anything other than this anyway?

    Who in their right mind would think that a useless list of bought emails that you don't have any relationship with would be classed as a successful business and pay for your dreams?

    Did I miss something? Isn't this just common sense?

    I struggle to believe anyone thought anything other than this.

    This stinks of people making common sense out to be amazing insights to pump up their own ego.

    I can understand why Frank makes it sound all mysterious - he's selling people information and does a great job of increasing the perceived value they give it. He's said it - YOU are his mysterious stranger every time you buy his stuff.

    But did you really think differently before he told you relationships were important?
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    nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      Did anyone actually think it wasn't about the relationships?
      Obviously, some people did... Although I don't see how they could.

      People seem to be talking about this like it's some weird secret that's been uncovered.......
      This is strangely related to the discussion we had yesterday, isn't it? ... Thus giving us a perfect example of what you were talking about. A little worrying that so many people will have their head turned by this very basic info packaged as revolutionary..

      Did anyone really think anything other than this anyway?
      Yup... but those are the people he is selling to... an easy sell for him, imho.

      It's a bit desperate, in my opinion, but a definite trend that is on the up.

      What some of these people are selling is basic marketing fundamentals that have been practised for decades... decades. Not weeks, not months, but years upon years.

      Nothing new here.

      The most basic of information is what really makes people money.

      Jay
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      Bare Murkage.........

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  • Profile picture of the author franamico
    I am just starting to build a list, and in selecting my follow up messages I realized that how responsive your list is going to be depends on the quality of emails and products you promote. If your subscribers realize that your emails are valuable, they are going to open them and look at what you got for them...
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  • Profile picture of the author b.super13
    The money is in the relationship with your list. Treat them like gold and they will be very responsive.

    I also agree with butters, it is not 1 single thing you do, but a combination of building squeeze pages, getting traffic, making contacts with other marketers and so on...
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  • Profile picture of the author ebooksmaster
    I am the type who never beleive in the list concept even it has been told million times by every guru out there...I have to get a aweber account and test and find it out for myself..
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    • Profile picture of the author steveweber
      Oh wow....here's the deal.

      It's about 10 times easier to get a lead than to make a sale to a one time/first time visitor to your site.

      Likewise, it is also about 10 times easier to make a sale to that lead which you build a relationship with than it is to make a sale to that one time/first time visitor.

      In most cases (internet marketing speaking and oftentimes otherwise), your hill to success is a gigantic mountain without building and nurturing a list.

      Building that relationship with the list is the key.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
    The money is NOT even in your relationship with your list.

    How so?

    You can have a great relationship with the people on your
    list and find that they still buy little from you.

    (E.g. You can give away lots of great content so people think
    you're cool but you've trained them to expect great information
    from you for free).

    The real truth is that the money is in the BEHAVIOR of your
    list...

    Do they buy?

    Do they click on your links/go to your websites, etc?

    In short, do they respond?

    Sure - focusing on the relationship you have with your list
    is important - but IMO it's more important to focus on the
    BEHAVIOR of the people on your list.

    Dedicated to your success,

    Shaun
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    .

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    • Profile picture of the author TimG
      Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

      The money is NOT even in your relationship with your list.

      How so?

      You can have a great relationship with the people on your
      list and find that they still buy little from you.

      (E.g. You can give away lots of great content so people think
      you're cool but you've trained them to expect great information
      from you for free).

      The real truth is that the money is in the BEHAVIOR of your
      list...

      Do they buy?

      Do they click on your links/go to your websites, etc?

      In short, do they respond?

      Sure - focusing on the relationship you have with your list
      is important - but IMO it's more important to focus on the
      BEHAVIOR of the people on your list.

      Dedicated to your success,

      Shaun
      Shaun,
      I was going to post something similar. I believe the money is in how you cultivate your list.

      If you develop a relationship and cultivate it to be a list of non-buyers then it becomes a list of non-buyers. However, if you cultivate it to become a list of buyers then it becomes a responisve list of buyers.

      Naturally, there is nurturing that must take place with your list which is were you develop/build a strong relationship based on trust and forthrightfulness.

      Respectfully,
      Tim
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    I can't believe we're even having this discussion - this stuff is obvious and basic.

    There are no finite rules.

    YOU need to test what this stuff means to you and THAT is the reality for you.

    Having a semantic debate about this is irrelevant and all comes back to common sense and getting on with your business. You can make money with no relationships or with great relationships.

    It's all optional and can be done in so many ways that on your own reality is worth paying attention to.

    Of course you can focus on 'the list', 'the relationships', 'the behaviour' and 100 other ways to say the same thing.
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    nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author Richelo Killian
    An easy way to sum this whole thread up, as well as Frank's video, as well as what I have been saying for years....

    "The money is in the RELATIONSHIP with your list!"

    You want to see 1 of the greatest relationship builders when it comes to email marketing? Go search for Martin Avis and sign up to his list. He is also a Warrior here.

    I eagerly wait for Martin's newsletters, which are sent at SET intervals. (Hint!!!)

    I buy basically anything Martin recommends in his newsletter WITHOUT reading the sales letter of the site he sends me to!

    WHY? I 100% trust the guy! He does not bombard me with promotional emails. He does not jump on every major launch bandwagon.

    He sends out newsletter I love to read, with TONS of useful information. When he recommends a product, it is because he has access to it, has gone through it, and REALLY thinks it is a great product.

    Trust me, you can REALLY learn something from just seeing a couple of Martin's newsletters!
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    Kind Regards
    Richelo Killian
    Email Deliverability Consulting
    Free Email Marketing Tutorial

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  • Profile picture of the author MoneyMaker Guy
    Cannot believe we are all still talking about "the money is not in the list"...it's your relationship with the fat cat with an even fatter wallet.

    Enjoyed Kern's video
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    • Profile picture of the author butters
      Actually, the money is in you Without you, there is nothing .
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  • Profile picture of the author BrainCopy
    The reason they claim that the "money is in the list" is simply because you can sell to that same list MULTIPLE times. You would literally be one click away from making quick cash, rather it's $100, $500,$1,000 or even $100k

    Best Regards,
    UFG
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  • Profile picture of the author Sco
    My belief is that the money is in the relationship. The list allow us to build that relationship...
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  • Profile picture of the author JonnyBalfour
    well this is why frank kern is so successful and so rich he has an unbeievable relationship with his list, every time i get an email from him i cant help but open it, my finger just takes over and clicks open, im always so curious what he has to say, and usually its something stupid aswell haha, i never learn
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  • Profile picture of the author jacksonlin
    The money isn't in the list.

    The money is in the TRAFFIC.

    The list is just one form of getting traffic to your offer.

    Just like SEO, PPC, viral marketing etc.

    It's all about TRAFFIC - the list is just one way of getting targeted traffic FAST.

    So the money is in the TRAFFIC!
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  • Profile picture of the author jacksonlin
    Also I don't know why people say Frank Kern is a pro at developing relationships. I used to get his one word emails sent to an offer of his with no content.

    I unsubscribed because I got sick of the lack of content he would give?

    Or did I sign up to the wrong Kern list?
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