How to Evaluate a Coder

15 years ago

As a programmer/designer, I have experienced many cases where clients came because they were ripped off or the coder did a real bad job and I had to redo everything.

Best way in my opinion is to check out their previous work, see if you feel comfortable, their location (many outsourced projects end up being junk to be honest), as well as if they have any references.

Remember, if it sounds too good to be true, then it is.

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iamsuneel

15 years ago

Ken, there are no sites that can help you out in choosing the right coder.

But, there are a few break-backs which you can use to choose the right programmer when you are choosing and trusting upon:

1. Get his portfolio and look at it that it is extensive. Do not give the work to starters and newbies in programming sections.

2. Never pay upfront. If they ask for half, you can go with it and I believe that you have PayPal account so that you can ask for a refund if you find out that you are being duped. Note: Let the programmer's PayPal account be 'Verified' so that you can trackback when the amount is huge, even though its half of it.

3. Ask for amendments on the sites that he had mentioned. Like, if he has given you umpteen sites stating that he had coded for them, ask for the recent ones and that he is still working on. Ask him/her to change something on the site, like adding a simple text in the footer, or creating a new page(if you wish to learn that he is a true expert in the area, the faster he does that, the more inclined he is to do others at such a faster TAT. Remember, The Schindler's List tool manufacturing scene??)

4. Give him simple tasks on your site and check back within the mentioned time frame.

5. Any programmer would have at least a couple of sites in his name to prove/test his mettle. Do take them from the programmer and ask him to replicate the problem he is facing and show you how to solve that.

I hope I have given you something to chew on. Always test, have some backup, before giving the job.

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D_M_S

15 years ago

I know I'm going to be coming at this from a different angle and might even get flamed for it: Stay away from anyone specializing in the open source stuff If you tout your PHP or Ruby or MySQL skills, I take a pass.

I've been coding for the greater part of the last 15 years. It's a professional skill just like anything else. The vast majority of PHP and MySQL folks are the ones that did a free install and read some tutorials online - that is not professional training.

I'd stick with programmers that work with C#, ASP.NET or Java (Oracle, SQL Server, etc). Heck, I'd even take a Cold Fusion guy over a PHP guy! Those are languages that focus on solid OPP programming principles that will take you far in the long run.

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Johnny Slater

15 years ago

I find this statement a bit insulting to anyone who codes PHP. I have been coding one language or another for 23 years, starting off with BASIC, and honestly it makes no difference what language you code in as to how professional you are.

I have come across a ton of people who profess to be expert C# programmers and couldn't even create the simplest apps with the language. Just because someone hasn't paid a fortune to learn something in a school system has no bearing on how professional they are or on their skill level. The vast majority of people who get college degrees honestly have no clue what it takes to make it in the real world of programming for hire.

Originally Posted by D_M_S

I'd stick with programmers that work with C#, ASP.NET or Java (Oracle, SQL Server, etc). Heck, I'd even take a Cold Fusion guy over a PHP guy! Those are languages that focus on solid OPP programming principles that will take you far in the long run.

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TristanPerry

15 years ago

Originally Posted by D_M_S

I know I'm going to be coming at this from a different angle and might even get flamed for it: Stay away from anyone specializing in the open source stuff If you tout your PHP or Ruby or MySQL skills, I take a pass.

I've been coding for the greater part of the last 15 years. It's a professional skill just like anything else. The vast majority of PHP and MySQL folks are the ones that did a free install and read some tutorials online - that is not professional training.

I'd stick with programmers that work with C#, ASP.NET or Java (Oracle, SQL Server, etc). Heck, I'd even take a Cold Fusion guy over a PHP guy! Those are languages that focus on solid OPP programming principles that will take you far in the long run.

A bit of a (heck, a massive) generalization

I know plently of PHP and MySQL folks who're better than the vast majority of 'real' programmers.

Plus PHP nowadays does have decent enough OOP programming support.

I know what you are saying (and you're right that there's plently of people who learnt PHP and MySQL quickly then try taking on massive projects for clients, and thus messing up the project), but it's still a massive generalization.

Plus this advice doesn't help people looking for a project done in PHP and MySQL.

Coming from a PHP/MySQL and Java guy... not that it matters

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

The vast majority of people who get college degrees honestly have no clue what it takes to make it in the real world of programming for hire.

This.

I'm doing a maths and computer science degree at the moment and whilst there are some great programmers in the year, the number of students who will go out and put "Java and C++ knowledge" on their CV (whilst actually knowing a relatively little amount of Java and C++) will be fairly high.

Knowing a 'real' programming language doesn't automatically mean you're better than a PHP/MySQL self-taught guy.

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Terry Crim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TristanPerry

I'm doing a maths and computer science degree at the moment and whilst there are some great programmers in the year, the number of students who will go out and put "Java and C++ knowledge" on their CV (whilst actually knowing a relatively little amount of Java and C++) will be fairly high.

Knowing a 'real' programming language doesn't automatically mean you're better than a PHP/MySQL self-taught guy.

The ONLY thing you NEED when it comes to computer science education is learning LOGIC and Computer Algebra Math. Understanding computer logic and how the high and low level compilers work with the CPU and memory usage as well as the structure and layout of designing computer code will put you ahead of 99.9% of every programmer that does NOT have this education every single time.

If you learn this, are adapt and can think the way computers do AND normal low tech people with no clue about technical stuff you can learn any language to a professional level within 4 to 6 months and make better software, running circles around any self-taught programmer without this education within 9 to 10 months.

It does take time to learn the language then the quirks and develop your own flow and helper tools. But I stand by what I said, if you are taught computer logic and computer math and you can think the way the computer does AND people at the sametime... you will blow away any other strictly self-taught programmer in any language within 6 to 10 months.

You won't have to waste time reverse engineering other peoples code to learn either, you will be able to look at an interface, sales letter, video tutorial and from scratch build similar software that does the samething and you won't need to rely on open source code or borrowing from this script or that script. Puts you years ahead of the self-taught crowd.

BUT you have to put in the time to learn the languages.

List of languages you should know to make the most freelance money from a online programming standpoint.

Php
Javascript
XML (RSS FEEDS, config files etc)
various methods to bring in and export data from different sites is important too and securing information.

CMS you should learn inner working to:
WordPress

API's you should be familiar with:

Facebook API
Twitter API
Amazon
Paypal

You may want to develop for phones iPhone, Droid etc...

From my experience you can learn the same if not more from books and google searches than you can sitting in class learning a specific language. Though the benefit of class is you get the standard practices of programming drilled into your head and importance and procedures of documenting code.

I enjoyed the assignments given that were designed to drill specific methods and techniques into your head like Multidimensional Array's, Loops, Database Design etc... But thinking back on it, I learned just as much if not more from other sources over the years since.

Most programmers, especially self taught do not document code or do it non-standardly so that will be first thing you learn in the freelance world. Though it is important to keep the practices they teach you in school becaue from my experience it puts you ahead of the game compared to other self-taught programmers without computer science education.

But it depends really what you want to do as to what you focus on, there are literally unlimited projects available that people are willing to pay you for, big and small. Wouldn't hurt, once you get through the basic stuff like computer logic, looping and all the non language specific classes to start learning php on your own and take some free lance work posted on various job boards. May help you actually to work as free lance programmer while in school.

My thoughts,

- T

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D_M_S

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TristanPerry

Plus PHP nowadays does have decent enough OOP programming support.

My point exactly. I don't want a language with "decent enough OOP support", I want an OOP language. That's what solid programming is all bout. If you know OOP, then learning a new, true, OOP language is just syntax, easy peasy.

Originally Posted by TristanPerry

Knowing a 'real' programming language doesn't automatically mean you're better than a PHP/MySQL self-taught guy.

It's not just about the language, it's about the platform and the capabilities. Can I hire you to create my next desktop app with PHP? No. But I can hire a C# specialist and they can develop web & desktop with the same language. Money spent on a talented C# developer will take you a lot further than money spent on an exceptional PHP developer.

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Ross Dalangin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by D_M_S

My point exactly. I don't want a language with "decent enough OOP support", I want an OOP language. That's what solid programming is all bout. If you know OOP, then learning a new, true, OOP language is just syntax, easy peasy.

It's not just about the language, it's about the platform and the capabilities. Can I hire you to create my next desktop app with PHP? No. But I can hire a C# specialist and they can develop web & desktop with the same language. Money spent on a talented C# developer will take you a lot further than money spent on an exceptional PHP developer.

I know what you mean but not in all cases. I've been programming since 1991 using different languages before from GW basic, assembly language, pascal, cobol, java, perl, foxpro, powerbuilder, delphi, visual c++, vb since v2, c#, etc., and now PHP. The only difference is the syntax and how you understand the flow. When you master one programming language, it's only an hour or days to learn new programming language. You generalize it because PHP is a lot easier than C platform but don't under estimate the people who are using PHP because you never know if he know how to program in different languages.

Different clients wants different platforms and different software sometimes uses different servers and mostly different in configurations so most probably cannot be done in one programming language alone. You will probably say that it can be done using c# because it can run on both web and desktop but think of customers side. Are they can afford good server and database for it? Are they can afford another good programmer to maintain the script or the software? Is it easy to get good programmer that can adapt your programming needs from now and in the future? think ahead..

You like OOP, that's good because it's easy to maintain if you are also a programmer but think of a customer who just want to modify something on your script and couldn't afford to hire a programmer.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with what you say because many programmers want to be the best programmer and confident enough to create an application but the only thing I can say is, there's lack in business aspect.

For me, if the programmer can do what I want in assembly language in my approximate time then I know he is a good programmer.

Ross

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bgmacaw

15 years ago

Originally Posted by D_M_S

Money spent on a talented C# developer will take you a lot further than money spent on an exceptional PHP developer.

Unfortunately, most C# and OOP experts I know (and I'm a C# programmer myself along with a web/UI designer) don't know diddly about web design or desktop app user interface design. Most of them really suck at it because it isn't their strong suite.

In many cases, it would be like asking an automotive engineer to change your spark plugs. They wouldn't know how to do the job correctly or quickly and would charge you a lot more than a 'lowly' auto mechanic.

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D_M_S

15 years ago

Originally Posted by bgmacaw

Unfortunately, most C# and OOP experts I know (and I'm a C# programmer myself along with a web/UI designer) don't know diddly about web design or desktop app user interface design. Most of them really suck at it because it isn't their strong suite.

In many cases, it would be like asking an automotive engineer to change your spark plugs. They wouldn't know how to do the job correctly or quickly and would charge you a lot more than a 'lowly' auto mechanic.

What you said would apply to any "code only" programmer, no matter what the language. If I take what you said, then you could say, "all PHP developers are fantastic designers and GUI experts" - thats obviously not true. Again, C# is a great choice because of the code-behind work and MVC. PHP is still (IIRC) a script/runtime language so a programmer & designer split is still very difficult at best.

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bgmacaw

15 years ago

Originally Posted by D_M_S

Again, C# is a great choice because of the code-behind work and MVC. PHP is still (IIRC) a script/runtime language so a programmer & designer split is still very difficult at best.

Not really. I've seen C# developers have a lot more trouble working with a PSD based design from a graphic designer than comparable PHP developers.

The code behind work is great when you're working on internal corporate apps that do accounting, invoicing and other such corporate business stuff. I'd much rather use C# for that myself because the OOP features, ability to integrate with Microsoft products and so forth are a great help.

However, for a public facing website that doesn't involve any complex backend processing, I'd much rather go with a PHP based solution because of it's simplicity, ease of modification, lower cost of hosting and typically better onsite SEO features.

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D_M_S

15 years ago

Originally Posted by bgmacaw

Not really. I've seen C# developers have a lot more trouble working with a PSD based design from a graphic designer than comparable PHP developers.

Its clear from this comment that you have no idea what MVC is.

Originally Posted by bgmacaw

However, for a public facing website that doesn't involve any complex backend processing, I'd much rather go with a PHP based solution because of it's simplicity, ease of modification, lower cost of hosting and typically better onsite SEO features.

That's a heck of disclaimer. You're right, for a "hello world" app, PHP is great! :rolleyes:

But how many times are you going to write a non-complex app? If you're reading some tutorials online and using your hobbled LAMP stack then you can use it but you shouldn't market yourself as a "professional" anything and definitely shouldn't take on contracts. But if you want to do professional work, then learn C#, Java or another real language.

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bgmacaw 15 years ago

Originally Posted by D_M_S

Its clear from this comment that you have no idea what MVC is.

And it's clear from your comments that you are consumed with academically perfect programming rather than meeting customer mandated requirements and deadlines.
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- D_M_S 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by bgmacaw
  
  And it's clear from your comments that you are consumed with academically perfect programming rather than meeting customer mandated requirements and deadlines.
  
  Sorry, but you're wrong yet again. I've been programming for the last 15 years, the last 5 as a consultant. I won't name names, but I've worked for some of the largest consulting companies you can imagine. My passport is filled with foreign work permits (flew more than 100,000 miles in a year a couple years back) and I've never missed a customer deadline. You can't be billed out at $10,000/week+expenses and miss too many deadlines
  
  You're simply wrong on all this PHP nonsense and you don't have the sensibility to admit as much. If I walked into my client offices and proposed a PHP solution, they'd laugh me out of there!
  
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seobro

15 years ago

OK, so I am a programmer. How do I find out if some one can program? Well, first I give them an easy job to see how good they are. Then a more challenging program. Finally, the real job is given.

Yeah, it does cost me extra money. However, it is important to find out that the person can meet deadlines, comments code, etc. early on.

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Matthew Iannotti

15 years ago

I skim the hell out of their feedback. I also go into great detail and cover my ideas 10x over to make sure they understand exactly what I want and if they can do it. Always keep the money in escrow. If the project isn't completed, they don't get paid.

Luckily, once you find one that's awesome, you found your coder for future projects as well...

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SageSound

15 years ago

I think you guys are missing something significant....

The average person thinks that anybody who can write HTML by hand is a "coder" or "programmer".

They cannot distinguish between HTML, CSS, php, c#, SQL, or anything else.

To someone who can't deal with any of it, it's all equivalent "black magic" to them.

So when someone asks "how can I evaluate a programmer?" a good first question to ask is, "what do you need them to do?" In the IM world, most of the time it's going to be something like: "I want a programmer with lots of Wordpress experience who can change the graphic on my blog header, and add four plugins to it."

Yeah ... how DO you evaluate a programmer for tasks like this???

-David

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Ryan Shaw

15 years ago

Great tips... Simply; don't pay unfront and get 3 or 4 people to choose from for backups

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goindeep

15 years ago

Using freelancers online, you will simply NEVER know. You have to be recommended from a good source. The guy i used to create my most recent project was great, however in finishing he became slow, and i started to see the cracks appear in his service. I found him on elance.

For the future i will only ever hire a trusted company or hire a freelancer which has been recommended to me.

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How to Evaluate a Coder

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