I take it [deleted] is one of the Owners of WF?

16 years ago

Nope. Allen is the owner of the place.

The post was nuked because it slammed someone by name. Those are almost always deleted. Read the rules, and you'll see that's pretty clearly stated.

No conspiracies, no "special treatment." Just the same rules that have been here right along. And no, I don't even know the guy.

Paul

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CyberSorcerer

16 years ago

Ok, good to know.

I have read the rules and was just curious as to it's deletion. From the links the OP posted it seemed he had pretty good proof of his claim.

I guess I'll keep me thoughts to myself then on some well known internet marketers.

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Paul Myers 16 years ago

From the links the OP posted it seemed he had pretty good proof of his claim.

He had one side of a story. It seemed consistent, but such things will when presented that way. Going from that to calling the guy a liar is a pretty big leap.

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Alan Petersen

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

Ok, good to know.

I have read the rules and was just curious as to it's deletion. From the links the OP posted it seemed he had pretty good proof of his claim.

I guess I'll keep me thoughts to myself then on some well known internet marketers.

You read the rules and missed #1?

And it's not just "well known internet marketers" like you implied. Bash anyone by name even unknowns like us and it will be deleted. Those threads end up being a train wreck and waste of time.

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Black Hat Cat

Banned 16 years ago

Originally Posted by Alan Petersen

You read the rules and missed #1?

And it's not just "well known internet marketers" like you implied. Bash anyone by name even unknowns like us and it will be deleted. Those threads end up being a train wreck and waste of time.

It may be a waste of time, but it's my(and everyone elses) time to waste.

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Alan Petersen 16 years ago

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

It may be a waste of time, but it's my(and everyone elses) time to waste.

Doesn't really matter. Allen Says owns this forum. Not you or me so it doesn't matter if you want to waste your time that way. It's not allowed so moot point.
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Black Hat Cat

Banned 16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

Ok, good to know.

I have read the rules and was just curious as to it's deletion. From the links the OP posted it seemed he had pretty good proof of his claim.

I guess I'll keep me thoughts to myself then on some well known internet marketers.

Good choice. Free thinking, and independent thought isn't encouraged here. Just become a yes man, and you'll do fine.

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globalpro 16 years ago

OK,

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

Good choice. Free thinking, and independent thought isn't encouraged here. Just become a yes man, and you'll do fine.

Then I am confused. Why are you bothering to post?

You say 'Free thinking, and independent thought isn't encouraged here', but I think you may be confusing this with doing so in the confines of the forum rules. Without the rules, it would be a free for all like a lot of other forums out there.

This group of people here encourage free thinking and independent thought, but will also challenge what you say in the hope of bringing out the best in what you are doing...

and yet, this is where people have a problem because others don't arbitrarily agree with what they are saying.

Sorry, your statement doesn't hold water.

Just curious.

Thanks,

John
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Kay King

16 years ago

Good choice. Free thinking, and independent thought isn't encouraged here. Just become a yes man, and you'll do fine.

Oh please! Get real. Free thinking doesn't give you the right to give away pirated copies of other marketer's products. That's not independent thought - it's theft.

For someone to post in a superior tone while putting down other marketers and product creators....while violating product terms...is astounding.

A swipe file might include sales pages, upsells, downsells, email series, ad copy, press releases - and can be an excellent way to teach marketers to dissect a campaign and evaluate an offer.

When you include the actual "product" as a bonus for those who pay your coaching fees for two months - you become just another thief online. Or do you teach for free and give away products? Unless you purchased the rights to those products - you have no business holding yourself up as some shining example of ethics.

As for the other thread - "proof of claim" in a post is also "one side of the story" and not enough info to make a judgment. I'd think someone who teaches IM would know that.

kay

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CyberSorcerer

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Oh please! Get real. Free thinking doesn't give you the right to give away pirated copies of other marketer's products. That's not independent thought - it's theft.

For someone to post in a superior tone while putting down other marketers and product creators....while violating product terms...is astounding.

A swipe file might include sales pages, upsells, downsells, email series, ad copy, press releases - and can be an excellent way to teach marketers to dissect a campaign and evaluate an offer.

When you include the actual "product" as a bonus for those who pay your coaching fees for two months - you become just another thief online. Or do you teach for free and give away products? Unless you purchased the rights to those products - you have no business holding yourself up as some shining example of ethics.

As for the other thread - "proof of claim" in a post is also "one side of the story" and not enough info to make a judgment. I'd think someone who teaches IM would know that.

kay

While someone could use the sales copy for their own sales page, I teach against using copied, or duplicate content and show the reasons why in my course. That's not to say someone would do it but I don't believe I have that type of students.

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Richard Van

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

While someone could use the sales copy for their own sales page, I teach against using copied, or duplicate content and show the reasons why in my course. That's not to say someone would do it but I don't believe I have that type of students.

I'm a bit confused here and I think it needs clarification.

Are you doing what Kay says here...

A swipe file might include sales pages, upsells, downsells, email series, ad copy, press releases - and can be an excellent way to teach marketers to dissect a campaign and evaluate an offer.

Or are you doing what she says here...

When you include the actual "product" as a bonus for those who pay your coaching fees for two months

So are you looking at how the product was sold or are you giving them copies of the actual product?

Sorry but I can't ascertain from whats been written exactly what you're doing. One or both of these?

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sbucciarel Banned 16 years ago

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

Good choice. Free thinking, and independent thought isn't encouraged here. Just become a yes man, and you'll do fine.

More drive by sniping by resident cat. The Cat seems to confuse free thinking and independent thought with trolling. Your typical non-conformist who believes that rules were made to be broken with impunity.

One of the few people here who can't seem to tear himself away from a forum he seems to dislike intensely. Go figure.
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batchos

16 years ago

I was hoping at least one person would come to your rescue. Thinking differently is not a crime, thinking you shouldn't, is. Have a happy new year!

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

Good choice. Free thinking, and independent thought isn't encouraged here. Just become a yes man, and you'll do fine.

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JohnMcCabe

16 years ago

CyberSorcerer, contrary to what one impulsive poster said, I think you've done yourself a lot of good here today.

You got a lot of heat for what amounts to misspeaking, and kept your cool. You copped to the misunderstanding and clarified yourself without getting defensive. Well done...

As for your original point, I think it all boils back to expectations. If Joe Gooroo leads buyers to believe that unlimited personal support is included, then that expectation should be honored. Most of those really worthy of the 'gooroo' label seem to understand that, and make it very clear that access has a price.

Maybe it's a monthly membership, or a private coaching program. Whatever it is, as long as the expectations are set ahead of time and honored, I have no beef.

What tends to really frost my pumpkin is when the package is sold with a component described as "one on one coaching with one of our professional coaches" and it turns out to be a high-pressure sales pitch for a really expensive coaching program. Priced depending on your credit score, of course...

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sylviad

16 years ago

I must say that it is a bit confusing when dealing with copying sales letters and such. It reminds me of journalism college - when the profs gave us copies of expert's material to expand our training. These were things like sales letters and press releases.
Perhaps the whole difference in this case is that the material being used is part of a (I assume) paid private course, which means the person running the course is making money from that additional material. And as far as I understand this issue, it's alright to "borrow" material for educational purposes but not so when the person is using it to round out a paid course. In a round-about way, the material is being "sold", the person passing it along is benefiting from it monetarily, and that is illegal.
I would suggest that you approach the people who own those sites and ask permission. In all fairness, it would be a good gesture to offer them a benefit, perhaps links to their sites in the actual course as references.
Otherwise, simply give your students links to those pages. If they no longer exist over time, so be it.
Sylvia

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CyberSorcerer

16 years ago

Originally Posted by sylviad

In all fairness, it would be a good gesture to offer them a benefit, perhaps links to their sites in the actual course as references.
Otherwise, simply give your students links to those pages. If they no longer exist over time, so be it.
Sylvia

Truthfully, I wouldn't mind contacting all of them. The problem is that they wouldn't answer me. As mentioned in a previous post above, I have tried contacting 8, well known, guru's in there field far various reasons and only 2 have answered.

One was Joey Smith, which I asked for permission to use a screen capture I took in one of his video's in a video in my private course. After a couple emails back and forth asking the particulars of everything he said "no problem." It would be nice if all guru's were as professional but I guess they have their reasons for not answering.

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sylviad

16 years ago

In that case, I'd look for others. There must be tons of sites that will serve your purpose. The reason they didn't answer could be because they get so much scam email they didn't look at it. Perhaps if you changed your subject line to something that would interest them, like: "May I use your website?" If that doesn't get their attention, I'm not sure what would.

Also look to see if you can find a contact form. Many people will answer those but not emails. And look for any support contact. I'm sure if you were thinking of buying from them they'd want to hear from you if you have questions.

And didn't you stated earlier that you bought their products? Why wouldn't they respond to a message asking a question about it, or just providing compliments about it or even offering suggestions in how to improve it? It'd be a foot in the door, and then you could ask about using their site in your course as reference material.

Sylvia

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CyberSorcerer

16 years ago

Originally Posted by sylviad

Also look to see if you can find a contact form. Many people will answer those but not emails. And look for any support contact. I'm sure if you were thinking of buying from them they'd want to hear from you if you have questions.

And didn't you stated earlier that you bought their products? Why wouldn't they respond to a message asking a question about it, or just providing compliments about it or even offering suggestions in how to improve it? It'd be a foot in the door, and then you could ask about using their site in your course as reference material.

Sylvia

I have no idea. All contact's were done through customer support channels. I could take guess, but that it they would only be guesses, or assumptions, such as there email gets screened and some worker didn't think it was that big of a deal to pass it on. Again, these would be just assumptions and we all know what happens when people assume!

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CyberSorcerer

16 years ago

Yes, Alan, I did read #1

I have tried contacting 8 of the top known guru's to talk to them about my thoughts on there products, courses, coaching, etc. Only 2 have answered.

It's too bad some people just sell there $1,997 to inexperienced people promising the moon and leave them in the wind to fend for themselves, or come to forums such as WF, DP, etc to get help.

Doesn't anyone actually care whether newbies make it or not? Or is just the bottom line Their bottom line?

Only reason I get upset is because I do teach newbies IM but it's a private course and I've heard all about the stories from there purchases. I want go on further because that's not what this thread is about.

This thread can be deleted now, or you can leave it up if you like.

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CDarklock

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

Doesn't anyone actually care whether newbies make it or not?

Nope. We all hate newbies and want them out of this industry. That's why we're all in cahoots with the IM guru syndicate to make sure nobody ever makes any money online.

You can't do it. We won't let you. You can go home now.

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dfs_dean

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Nope. We all hate newbies and want them out of this industry. That's why we're all in cahoots with the IM guru syndicate to make sure nobody ever makes any money online.

You can't do it. We won't let you. You can go home now.

Well, would someone at least teach me the secret handshake? :confused:

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Phillip King

16 years ago

Originally Posted by dfs_dean

Well, would someone at least teach me the secret handshake? :confused:

I do have a course for $497 on "The Secret Handshake", this is by invitation only, consider yourself invited.

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Paul Myers

16 years ago

CS,

I think what you're missing is that distributing the salesletters themselves, without permission from the owner, is very likely a violation of copyright. The fact that some other person included them does not make it okay for you to do so. If they didn't have permission, they were probably also violating the owner's copyright.

Note: Still not a lawyer, but I was a copywriter for years.

That's not to say someone would do it but I don't believe I have that type of students.

Not a safe assumption.

I got an email from a guy a while back, asking me to review the copy he was going to send to his subscribers to promote his new product. My response was something like, "I like it every bit as much now as I did when I wrote it for [client]."

The only thing he'd changed was the name of the product and the name at the end of the email.

I would not have thought he'd stoop to a direct copy of someone else's material like that, but he did.

John,

Then I am confused. Why are you bothering to post?

Cat suffers from a fairly common malady. When things aren't done according to his preferences, he assumes them to be wrong, and thus Something Must Be Done.

In his case, the 'Something' is a fairly benign habit of dropping in to threads occasionally to make snide comments.

Paul

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bobsilber

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

CS,

I got an email from a guy a while back, asking me to review the copy he was going to send to his subscribers to promote his new product. My response was something like, "I like it every bit as much now as I did when I wrote it for [client]."

Paul,

Sometimes your posts are classic. You make me laugh. I wish that I had read this at the stroke of midnight as it is always good to start the New Year off with a laugh. Here is one for you. "Anatidaephobia"

.
.

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Paul Myers 16 years ago

Bob,

Sometimes your posts are classic. You make me laugh. I wish that I had read this at the stroke of midnight as it is always good to start the New Year off with a laugh.

It's a true story. F'real. The funniest stuff always is.

Here is one for you. "Anatidaephobia"

Wanna buy a duck?

Paul
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CDarklock

16 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

CyberSorcerer, contrary to what one impulsive poster said, I think you've done yourself a lot of good here today.

He certainly got my attention. And not in a "you suck and I hate you" way, either.

Originally Posted by bobsilber

Here is one for you. "Anatidaephobia"

The fear that somewhere, somehow, a duck is watching you.

Interesting question: why is that only funny when it's "anatidaephobia," instead of something like "duckalookophobia" - but the fear of being chased around the kitchen table in your socks by a wolf is only funny when it's "luposlipophobia" instead of something more technical?

Humour is intriguing.

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Buildingfutures

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Humour is intriguing.

Something Hilarious? Geniophobia. The fear of Chins.

Also, Dextrophobia. The fear of things on the right side.

I would be the worst person in the world if I ever met someone with these fears, because I would not be able to resist scaring the person to death, all the time.

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CDarklock

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Buildingfutures

Geniophobia. The fear of Chins.

That leads to interesting etymological questions about the words "genial" and "generous."

No, GENIAL! Not genitals! I swear, I can't talk to you people.

Also, Dextrophobia. The fear of things on the right side.

As one looks at it, sir?

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Buildingfutures

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

As one looks at it, sir?

Its actually fear of things to the right of ones body. So yes, as one looks at it. I'm not sure how someone even lives with that kind of fear, somehow something is always on the right side.

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CDarklock

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Buildingfutures

I'm not sure how someone even lives with that kind of fear, somehow something is always on the right side.

I'd expect you'd live your life shoved up against the wall. There are undoubtedly subtleties to what is and is not frightening on your right side.

My favourite fear was always "pantophobia" - fear of everything. That person probably spends his life running and hiding in different places before realising he's afraid of that, too.

Although it would be much more amusing if it was the fear of pants.

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Buildingfutures

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

I'd expect you'd live your life shoved up against the wall. There are undoubtedly subtleties to what is and is not frightening on your right side.

My favourite fear was always "pantophobia" - fear of everything. That person probably spends his life running and hiding in different places before realising he's afraid of that, too.

Although it would be much more amusing if it was the fear of pants.

I'll do one better. Linonophobia, fear of string. Because I can see someone finding strings in their blanket, on their clothes, anywhere. There's no safe zones from string.

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Richard Van

16 years ago

My favourite fear was always "pantophobia" - fear of everything. That person probably spends his life running and hiding in different places before realising he's afraid of that, too.

Although it would be much more amusing if it was the fear of pants.

What is a fear of pants? Or does that fall under Linonophobia?:rolleyes:

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CDarklock

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

What is a fear of pants?

It depends on what "pants" means to you. It may be a fear of underwear or a fear of trousers.

Most of the words I've found for it are either jokes or incorrect. The most correct-sounding one is "koumpounophobia," but I happen to know that's not really a fear of pants. It's a fear of buttons.

What do you mean, how do I know that? I just happen to know it. There's no deep dark secret behind that. Leave me alone.

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Buildingfutures

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

It depends on what "pants" means to you. It may be a fear of underwear or a fear of trousers.

Most of the words I've found for it are either jokes or incorrect. The most correct-sounding one is "koumpounophobia," but I happen to know that's not really a fear of pants. It's a fear of buttons.

What do you mean, how do I know that? I just happen to know it. There's no deep dark secret behind that. Leave me alone.

Why sir, why are you so defensive? If I pull out a button, are you going to attack me?

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Richard Van

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

It depends on what "pants" means to you. It may be a fear of underwear or a fear of trousers.

Most of the words I've found for it are either jokes or incorrect. The most correct-sounding one is "koumpounophobia," but I happen to know that's not really a fear of pants. It's a fear of buttons.

What do you mean, how do I know that? I just happen to know it. There's no deep dark secret behind that. Leave me alone.

Good point there. Pants over here are underwear, over there they're trousers.

I noticed the extreme paranoia regarding the button issue. Would you like to talk about this Caliban. Would that help?

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Kay King

16 years ago

I'm also confused - and certainly don't want to accuse you of something you aren't doing. You SAID

After my students are in my course for 2 months I give them my swipe file collection. This is a collection, separated into folders, of each product I've purchased along with the OTO, upsells, down sales, pages etc.

I understand what a swipe file is - but you mention giving them a copy "of each product I've purchased" and that's where Richard and I are confused.

In a personal swipe file - whether you keep phrases or word combination or full sales pages, etc, it's a file for personal use. When you are distributing that copy as part of your own product - I think that is a different matter.

kay

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Carlos-Amigos 16 years ago

Originally Posted by dfs_dean

Well, would someone at least teach me the secret handshake? :confused:

Sorry mate you need to be more enlightened mwaahahah
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Buildingfutures

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Nope. We all hate newbies and want them out of this industry. That's why we're all in cahoots with the IM guru syndicate to make sure nobody ever makes any money online.

You can't do it. We won't let you. You can go home now.

First we make it seem really easy to get into internet marketing.

Then we make it seem very, very hard to succeed.

Newbies drop out.

More money!

You Jelly?

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jamjar919

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Nope. We all hate newbies and want them out of this industry. That's why we're all in cahoots with the IM guru syndicate to make sure nobody ever makes any money online.

You can't do it. We won't let you. You can go home now.

Someones using the minitroll - YAY

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Rob Howard

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

It's too bad some people just sell there $1,997 to inexperienced people promising the moon and leave them in the wind to fend for themselves, or come to forums such as WF, DP, etc to get help.

It's too bad some colleges just sell their 50,000 a year education programs, promising the moon and then leaving those new grads in the wind to fend for themselves when they graduate, forcing them to go out and actually find a job and gaining experience instead of handing it to them on a silver platter.

Damn colleges, it must be sheer greed. They're all dirty capitalists, and should be burned at the stake for actually wanting to make money.

Rob

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scortillion

16 years ago

Originally Posted by ccmusicman

It's too bad some colleges just sell their 50,000 a year education programs, promising the moon and then leaving those new grads in the wind to fend for themselves when they graduate, forcing them to go out and actually find a job and gaining experience instead of handing it to them on a silver platter.

Damn colleges, it must be sheer greed. They're all dirty capitalists, and should be burned at the stake for actually wanting to make money.

Rob

You said it, imagine not taking you by the hand, finding you a job showing you how to do that job and then not helping you get promoted while you're there...

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TimG

16 years ago

Originally Posted by ccmusicman

It's too bad some colleges just sell their 50,000 a year education programs, promising the moon and then leaving those new grads in the wind to fend for themselves when they graduate, forcing them to go out and actually find a job and gaining experience instead of handing it to them on a silver platter.

Damn colleges, it must be sheer greed. They're all dirty capitalists, and should be burned at the stake for actually wanting to make money.

Rob

My college still stays in contact with me....of course it's usually around the time they need/want donations from their alumni :rolleyes:

Respectfully,
Tim

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Alan Petersen

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

Yes, Alan, I did read #1

I have tried contacting 8 of the top known guru's to talk to them about my thoughts on there products, courses, coaching, etc. Only 2 have answered.

It's too bad some people just sell there $1,997 to inexperienced people promising the moon and leave them in the wind to fend for themselves, or come to forums such as WF, DP, etc to get help.

Doesn't anyone actually care whether newbies make it or not? Or is just the bottom line Their bottom line?

Only reason I get upset is because I do teach newbies IM but it's a private course and I've heard all about the stories from there purchases. I want go on further because that's not what this thread is about.

This thread can be deleted now, or you can leave it up if you like.

This is my take on it and it's just that (my opinion). Not to be mean but there is very little we as a forum mates can do about a dispute.

As Paul wrote, there is always 2 sides of the story so we just don't know. For all we know the newbie bought a course for $1,997 and didn't put in the work. Maybe they did. We don't know.

So if they come here to complain about it... it ends up being a guru said/newbie said debate and we have no way of knowing who is right.

That's why those battles are best left up the two parties involved. If they don't think they're getting satisfaction there are other avenues (law suites, there own blog, FTC, BBB, etc.) to air their dirty laundry other than venting in a public forum.

The rule is also in place to protect the truly innocent. Yes, there are other shoddy operators out there. Just as easy as it is to fathom that a guru ripped off a newbie, a smear campaign against any of us could be started right here and we would be pretty much defenseless to stop it.

People do tell lies to try and destroy others for a litany of reasons (real and imagined).

This forum gets grief about rule #1 but it's one of the reasons that separates it from the other flame fest forums out there.

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CyberSorcerer

16 years ago

Teaching IM to someone is no different than teaching History, Science or Math is school or college. A certain percentage will do great, a certain percentage will not, and the ones that fall in the middle. Not all of them will land a career is the industry that they've majored in and most will end up doing something different.

BUT, when they have a question, need help with a homework assignment, etc there is always a teacher, professor, etc there to at least take their question until they do finish college and hopefully graduate. The person teaching the class is the one who helps them, answers their question etc. Not an outsourcer and don't bring up substitute teachers.

I could go on about the differences in colleges vs IM memberships, courses, but I'm sure you all can figure that out truthfully.

I'm not getting sarcastic, just giving my opinions on some of the thoughts brought up above.

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FredJones 16 years ago

The point to note here is that one could observe all the differences between black and blue if they want to, and may not observe if they do not want to.

Just like delving deeper into your brains you could make out the differences between IM and college, similarly by using your brains you could also go a lot deeper into IM and actually figure many of the things out. In my case, I had started with $20.18 or so and then that's what I did. I started earning and then only started reinvesting money. I had invested time and had been looking only at the eye of the bird - my success in IM. And it worked out.

So, in the broad universe, there will be Gods, humans and Demons. That applies to gurus also. Just if one "guru" is a demon, that does not mean that real gurus do not exist. They do. Be wise, asses your risks and returns, and trust only your deeper intelligence till your deeper intelligence is triple-convinced that you ought to trust someone. Then only start trusting that someone. If someone gifts $1997 to someone and get nothing back, that's because that's what they are looking for.

As pointed out earlier, gurus can only help you and ultimately you have to "do the thing" - no matter in which field you are - history or scientific invention or IM. Do you believe every teacher of chemistry works out the lab experiements for their students? Now, if you pour a bucket of water into a good volume of sulfuric acid in your chemistry lab class just because your teacher (guru) did not prohibit you to, is it the guru's or the college's fault that you died as a result of the explosion? Probably no.

Be wise. Things will work out. Keep cribbing - nothing but cribbing will happen. The positive things that happen are only those things that you want to happen, others normally do not.
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CDarklock

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

Teaching IM to someone is no different than teaching History, Science or Math is school or college.

But most of the gurus are selling you a home-study course.

Part of the deal is that you don't get to ask the teacher questions.

If you want to ask the teacher questions, there is coaching available. It costs a lot more money. But you didn't pay it, so you don't get to ask the questions.

It's sort of like buying Mankiw's textbook on microeconomics, and then expecting him to answer your questions via email. If you want to ask Mankiw questions, you need to take his class at Harvard. If that's too hard or too expensive, you can just buy his textbook - but you don't get to ask him questions.

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CyberSorcerer

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

If you want to ask the teacher questions, there is coaching available. It costs a lot more money. But you didn't pay it, so you don't get to ask the questions.

Sense Mankiw is a professor at the college I can put a little more trust in his knowledge and ability in his field if I do pay for his coaching, or one on one help.

Complete newbies are putting there trust in the guru based on his sales page, testimonials, earnings screenshots or videos, etc. All of which can be faked and not saying that ALL of them are but I'm sure a good percentage. There's no way to know for sure because you can't discuss anything one-to-one with the gurus. Of course you can contact support, or send in a ticket but I digress.

My point is, if you're serious about helping people learn how to make money online then you can try and help them the best way you can and if they fail, so be it. Not everyone can make money online and granted a lot of newbies fail to realize this.

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Havenhood

16 years ago

My point is, if you're serious about helping people learn how to make money online then you can try and help them the best way you can and if they fail, so be it. Not everyone can make money online and granted a lot of newbies fail to realize this.

I agree! I apologize for the lack chivalry. ...some people are no better than...

So, you made a mistake... :rolleyes:

Leave the lady alone!

Please forgive the mistaken identity. The point still stands, though.

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CDarklock

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

try and help them the best way you can and if they fail, so be it.

And what if someone else thinks you're not doing enough?

What if you help someone the best way you can, and some other guy comes along and says you should be doing more?

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Buildingfutures

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

And what if someone else thinks you're not doing enough?

What if you help someone the best way you can, and some other guy comes along and says you should be doing more?

That's when you do like some of these guru's do and have someone else take care of these customers. OR limit your interaction with them entirely to the emails you send out.

It's going to be fighting a tide no matter what, its just where you want to fight the tide and if you can hold it back well enough.

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CrhisD

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

But most of the gurus are selling you a home-study course.

Part of the deal is that you don't get to ask the teacher questions.

If you want to ask the teacher questions, there is coaching available. It costs a lot more money. But you didn't pay it, so you don't get to ask the questions.

It's sort of like buying Mankiw's textbook on microeconomics, and then expecting him to answer your questions via email. If you want to ask Mankiw questions, you need to take his class at Harvard. If that's too hard or too expensive, you can just buy his textbook - but you don't get to ask him questions.

I bought a book, emailed the guy a few questions, and he answered.

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CyberSorcerer

16 years ago

True Alan,

I guess this thread has run it's course.

I know a lot more about rule #1 now that just from reading it and assuming my own conclusions about things I might be a little hazy on. This is why I brought this thread up when the OP's post got deleted.

This is what communication is all about and glad to see I wasn't deleted from talking about this subject or bringing it up.

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Dennis Gaskill

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

Sense Mankiw is a professor at the college I can put a little more trust in his knowledge and ability in his field if I do pay for his coaching, or one on one help.

Complete newbies are putting there trust in the guru based on his sales page, testimonials, earnings screenshots or videos, etc. All of which can be faked and not saying that ALL of them are but I'm sure a good percentage. There's no way to know for sure because you can't discuss anything one-to-one with the gurus. Of course you can contact support, or send in a ticket but I digress.

My point is, if you're serious about helping people learn how to make money online then you can try and help them the best way you can and if they fail, so be it. Not everyone can make money online and granted a lot of newbies fail to realize this.

Your concern is admirable and speaks well of you. The thing is, each "guru" sets the level of access you get. Some are good about answering questions, some are not. Some are just overwhelmed. Sometimes emails are lost or eaten by spam filters. Some people want too much of your time. Some people ask questions when the answers are plainly in the material had they read it closer...or at all.

You said you tried contacting 8 gurus to share your thoughts and only 2 responded. Did you buy their products? I gotten over 500 emails in one day before. There's no way I can answer all that, so I answer paying customers first. The others are just out of luck ... sorry, try again. Some of the questions they ask would take me an hour to answer because it would entail writing a tutorial. Sometimes people ask questions hoping they'll get an answer rather than having to buy one of my products.

My point is, you're trying to paint a black and white picture, but it's seldom that way.

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CyberSorcerer

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

You said you tried contacting 8 gurus to share your thoughts and only 2 responded. Did you buy their products?.

Yes, as my wife can attest to. I have purchase over 100k in products more for analyzing the "make money from home", "work from home", and "affiliate marketing" niches and what's being sold.

After my students are in my course for 2 months I give them my swipe file collection. This is a collection, separated into folders, of each product I've purchased along with the OTO, upsells, down sales, pages etc. Going over these are a good learning experience that cover's a lot about the pyschology of selling.

My course is private and I put on a webinar every Tuesday that covers all the material that was covered the previous week. Because it's private, yes I do have time to spend with each person and help them where they need help. BUT! There's a vbulletin forum with a blog for each member that has to update their progress each week "and show" the work they've done, what they have accomplished, etc. If nothing is done then NO, they get no help. You have to have action with IM if you expect anything to happen. All the production is the world is ok, but at the end of the day you have to have something to show for that work.

Now to other's reading this, I am responding to the quote above and no I'm not advertising my course because as mentioned "It's private."

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CDarklock

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

...I give them my swipe file collection. This is a collection, separated into folders, of each product I've purchased along with the OTO, upsells, down sales, pages etc.

I'm sorry, could you be a little more clear about this?

Because it sounds like you have a private class where you sell people pirate copies of your IM product collection.

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CyberSorcerer

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

I'm sorry, could you be a little more clear about this?

Because it sounds like you have a private class where you sell people pirate copies of your IM product collection.

No, I don't treat people that way. If I'm helping people I'm personally helping people and not selling them stolen products. Although everything I know about IM comes mostly from what I've purchased and studied. But to tell you the truth I was doing affiliate marketing before any of this IM, as it is today, was even around. I started off in as an Adult (porn) affiliate back in 1996. Yes there was a lot of money to be made back then because the porn industry was making a killing. Just putting up a TGP or LL make you $10,000 a month without much effort. As more and more people got comfortable using there credit cards online though the industry slowed down quite a bit.

A swipe file is when your on the sales page and you go up to the top left menu bar and click on File. Then go down to and click on "Save File." A save dialog comes up where you can save the current page your viewing. This way you can load it later and view that page which is good for studying the sales page especially after the product has been taken down and the sales page is no longer available.

Sorry you didn't understand what a swipe file was, I just assumed every here knew what one was.

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CDarklock

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

Sorry you didn't understand what a swipe file was, I just assumed every here knew what one was.

Actually, it's you who doesn't understand what a swipe file is.

A swipe file is a copywriter's personal collection of repeatedly-used elements that are known to work. Like the "who else wants to discover" headline. Every time you write a sales page, you test certain things, and you get results. When you have a particular headline or bullet point or paragraph of exposition that wins split tests over and over, you put it in your swipe file because you know it works.

However, you seem to be saying that whenever you buy something, you save copies of all the sales materials and then distribute copies to your students. That is not a swipe file. That is stealing.

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madaffiliatemoney

16 years ago

Cyber Sorcerer you are making a real good reputation for yourself here. You lost, nobody likes you, go to [deleted]

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Paul Myers 16 years ago

You lost, nobody likes you, go to [deleted]

Ummm... Why would anyone feel any strong dislike for him personally? It's not like he's been viciously abusive. Just asked a question in a mildly snide way, which may have just been a matter of poor word choice. His responses to some fairly aggressive comments have been measured and rational.

If this were the worst we ever had to deal with, it would be very good news indeed.

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Buildingfutures 16 years ago

Originally Posted by madaffiliatemoney

Cyber Sorcerer you are making a real good reputation for yourself here. You lost, nobody likes you, go to [deleted]

Settle down there, cowboy.

We don't advocate sending people off to those... Those HEATHENS!!!

If you don't like how CS is responding, working etc, don't buy or pay attention to him. Don't tell him to scram, that's just rude.

I like to believe we're all dapper gentlemen and eloquent ladies in this forum, and as such we should all have a modicum of decency in how we act.

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sbucciarel

Banned 16 years ago

Originally Posted by madaffiliatemoney

Cyber Sorcerer you are making a real good reputation for yourself here. You lost, nobody likes you, go to [deleted]

Don't put words into other people's mouths. I don't know Cyber Sorcerer well enough to like or dislike them and wouldn't send anyone to yonder. I was simply a little surprised at the distribution of sales copy materials that are copyrighted. At any rate, by the responses of the OP, it doesn't seem like mal intent, but probably not a good thing to do.

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AFI

16 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

@Jennifer

I didn't see that thread but I have seen threads on here before where there are a lot of posters who condone all manner of behavior. The activity in the thread you mention is called piracy and is just plain theft. Why anyone in an Internet Marketing forum would condone that, unless they're just thieves themselves, is beyond me. Sooner or later they may be creating a product that is stolen and distributed all over the Internet or resold for peanuts.

I found the thread:

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...purchased.html

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sbucciarel Banned 16 years ago

Originally Posted by AFI

I found the thread:

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...purchased.html

Ok ... still in shrink wrap and selling his own copy ... I don't see what the problem would be with that.
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- AFI 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by sbucciarel
  
  Ok ... still in shrink wrap and selling his own copy ... I don't see what the problem would be with that.
  
  Yeah I'd forgotten he'd said that.
  
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  Dennis Gaskill 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer
  
  .It does shock me that a forum of IM'ers don't know that, or even understand the concept.
  
  It's not that people don't know what a swipe file is, it's that people didn't know what YOU consider a swipe file. You left plenty of room for doubt.
  
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TimG

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

A swipe file is when your on the sales page and you go up to the top left menu bar and click on File. Then go down to and click on "Save File." A save dialog comes up where you can save the current page your viewing. This way you can load it later and view that page which is good for studying the sales page especially after the product has been taken down and the sales page is no longer available.

For what it's worth I appreciate what you posted here because there were certain sales pages I liked and saved as a favorite in my toolbar only to find them gone when the sites went down.

For me anyway this will help save the sales pages I like to look at and analyze at a later date.

Respectfully,
Tim

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theimdude

16 years ago

hmmmmm...... wonder if this will be carried over to 2011

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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Well, I must have taken my stupid pills today. I have gone through this
whole thread and I have absolutely no idea what all this commotion is
about.

And no...I'm not going to read through it again because my head already
hurts too much.

Seems like a lot to do about nothing, but like I said, I don't even know
what we're arguing about (and to confuse me that much takes a lot of
doing) so maybe there is something viable in this mess.

But cheese Louise...can we at least get organized?

We've gone from censorship to sales copy theft to, hell, I don't even know
what.

Lord...let this not be a preview of 2011 or I'm going to check myself into
the ward right now.

Carry on folks. I'm sufficiently bumfuzzled. (we'll see how many get THAT
reference)

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CDarklock

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Why would anyone feel any strong dislike for him personally?

I admire that he's not taken off in a snit. He's standing up for what he believes and weathering a pretty strong storm. That's not some random forum troll, that's a real person with a strong personality who could be one hell of an asset to this forum.

Originally Posted by AFI

Is it because the other guy was only selling one copy of everything?

Yes, in a nutshell. There's a legal doctrine called the "first sale doctrine," where once you have purchased something you have every right to resell it ONCE and the vendor can't stop you. There are some very tight and specific cases where it doesn't apply, e.g. the AutoCAD lawsuits recently, but in general they don't apply to ebooks. However, there's a subtlety to this which is often overlooked: with digital products, you must also destroy all copies you retain.

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

We've gone from censorship to sales copy theft to, hell, I don't even know
what.

I think the fundamental point down at the bottom of this is the idea that the "big name" IMers don't do enough for newbies. That they'll take your money and hand you a box, but then they disappear, and this is a Bad Thing that needs to be fixed.

The OP's own program then came up, and the way he described it set off a bunch of warning flags for me - because it sounded like he was saying he buys products and sells copies of them to his students. Instead, he's just giving copies of the sales funnel materials to his students, which is significantly less obviously wrong. Particularly with the "swipe file" concept floating around out there, and the humourous representation of copywriting as "stealing what works."

I think the point down at the bottom is still the notion that big-name gurus actively suppress lesser-known instructors and ostracise them from the community to avoid competition. And on some level, I think the OP wants to be banned, because it will serve as evidence for his argument. I actually think that's why he came here - to upset the powers that be and get himself kicked out, so he could say "see, even the mighty Warrior Forum cannot withstand the truth."

But I also think he's no idiot, and is starting to see the potential benefits of NOT getting himself banned.

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Buildingfutures

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Particularly with the "swipe file" concept floating around out there, and the humourous representation of copywriting as "stealing what works."

When it comes down to it, I could go through at least 20-30 products I've bought over the years that tell me specifically to go to sales pages that are known converters, and steal that page and use it as my own (essentially, I'd have to edit it and such, but the principal is the same).

Which is different to another few books I've got that tell me to simply Download and keep as reference.

I do enjoy keeping the sales pages that convert me so that I can look and see what it was that did convert me. But, I'm no product man, so that idea of "using" it just doesn't fit in with me.

Not quite sure where I was going with this, other than compared to what he does, I've come across individuals who tell their students to plagiarize constantly, and feel there won't be repercussions for it.

-Sean

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CDarklock

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Buildingfutures

go to sales pages that are known converters, and steal that page and use it as my own

There's a subtlety there which a lot of people miss. It is possible to take a sales page and render it very quickly from a copyrightable work of art into a pattern no longer eligible for copyright.

Nobody can copyright "headline subhead picture greeting intro benefits," for example. You can remove all the artistry and intellectual property from copy, and what you are left with is a schematic for a sales page that converts. That schematic is not a work of art or a piece of creative expression.

But many people don't understand this, and instead think they can just change a couple words. They don't grasp that it's the process of tearing the sales page apart which gives them the insights that lead to the conversion they'll see from this approach. Generally because they're not copywriters, don't understand copywriting, and honestly don't really want to.

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Buildingfutures

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

There's a subtlety there which a lot of people miss. It is possible to take a sales page and render it very quickly from a copyrightable work of art into a pattern no longer eligible for copyright.

Nobody can copyright "headline subhead picture greeting intro benefits," for example. You can remove all the artistry and intellectual property from copy, and what you are left with is a schematic for a sales page that converts. That schematic is not a work of art or a piece of creative expression.

But many people don't understand this, and instead think they can just change a couple words. They don't grasp that it's the process of tearing the sales page apart which gives them the insights that lead to the conversion they'll see from this approach. Generally because they're not copywriters, don't understand copywriting, and honestly don't really want to.

I'll be honest, I never took a sales page and tore it down, simply because I had nothing to sell. I still have nothing to sell. And over the years, I've just neglected to learn copywriting, mainly because I hate writing for work. Stupid, yes, I know, but that's why people like me pay people like you to write it. We don't want to, haha!

-Sean

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CDarklock 16 years ago

Originally Posted by Buildingfutures

I've just neglected to learn copywriting, mainly because I hate writing for work. Stupid, yes, I know

Not stupid at all. Copywriting is a very complicated and specialised skill, and it takes a long time to get good at it... so if you don't think it's fun, honestly, you're probably better off doing something else.
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Steven Wagenheim 16 years ago

Okay, as far as copywriting goes, what you want to do is look at a sales
page and understand the structure of it. And most sales pages (not all)
do follow a basic structure.

However...that alone is not going to turn you into a copywriter because
one of the biggest missing ingredients that you can't get from copy
structure, no matter how many sales pages you study, is buyer psychology.

What hot buttons are being pushed by the copywriter and why?

If you don't understand your target market and what makes them tick,
you will, at best, be a so-so copywriter. And yes, this is my opinion.

As for gurus not giving help to those after selling a "business in a box" or
"home study course" there is a double edged sword here.

I try to do the best I can to help people after the sale, but there is only
so much I can do. If somebody comes back to me writing...

"I don't know anything about HTML or FTP or (fill in the blanks) so can you
please (and then comes the list of all the things the customer needs my
help with that ends up amounting to my giving him 4 weeks of my time)"

Obviously...I can't do it. I might as well close up my business because
nothing else will get done.

Imagine I sold 500 copies of a $297 course and had 100 customers that
needed that kind of support?

If that's what was expected in the first place (don't ever assume) then
questions should have been asked before the purchase. I then could have
said that my time is limited and will help how I can, but if you're looking for
somebody to essentially hold your hand through the whole process, then
it's best you stay away from this product.

Yes, we have an obligation to our customers, but that obligation only
can go so far.

I know many won't agree with this and will feel that we need to go above
and beyond with every customer we have.

Before you spout those absolutes, wait until you've released a $297 or
$1,297 home study course and get 100 people demanding 8 hours of your
time every day for 3 months.

You will feel a whole lot different about it.

I could keep going on this subject about morals and ethics (honesty in
sales copy) and all that, but then you'd end up more confused than I was
before Caliban (thank you my friend) explained to me, essentially, what's
going on here.

Yeah, it's always going to be the "gurus" against the rest of the world (I
never asked for that title) which is one of the reasons I'd just assume pack
this whole gig in and spend my days writing songs, playing video games
and playing Magic The Gathering.

Caliban, now do you understand why I went into semi retirement last year?

Sometimes the hassles of dealing with unrealistic expectations make this
whole thing just not worth it.

Now I know why Frank Kern got out of the "IM info product business."

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on all this...for whatever they're worth.
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- CDarklock 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim
  
  Caliban, now do you understand why I went into semi retirement last year?
  
  Very much so.
  
  People like you and I care deeply about our customers. We want to help them as much as possible. And no matter how much we've already greased the squeaky wheels so far, we still feel guilty that there are still wheels squeaking.
  
  It's hard not to get so wrapped up in it, you just trade every waking moment of your life for the comfort of those squeaky wheels. On some level, you feel like ignoring those wheels makes you a worse person.
  
  I can't tell anyone how to start ignoring them, or when, or how many to ignore, or how to live with yourself for doing it. But I can say that you have to figure out a way to do all of those things, or you'll never get anywhere.
  
  For all my spiky demeanor, I'm a big softy. Always have been. And that's largely why I need the spiky demeanor - to keep the thronging hordes of whinging newbies at bay. If you don't have a soft underbelly, you don't need a shell.
  
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  Signature
  
  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
  
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  Richard Van 16 years ago
  
  For all my spiky demeanor, I'm a big softy
  
  And there lies the truth. I can personally add to that, a very nice chap as well.
  
  Having said that I still believe Steven has a gun and a meat cleaver with him at all times.
  
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  Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...
  
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sbucciarel

Banned 16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

Yes, as my wife can attest to. I have purchase over 100k in products more for analyzing the "make money from home", "work from home", and "affiliate marketing" niches and what's being sold.

After my students are in my course for 2 months I give them my swipe file collection. This is a collection, separated into folders, of each product I've purchased along with the OTO, upsells, down sales, pages etc. Going over these are a good learning experience that cover's a lot about the pyschology of selling.

My course is private and I put on a webinar every Tuesday that covers all the material that was covered the previous week. Because it's private, yes I do have time to spend with each person and help them where they need help. BUT! There's a vbulletin forum with a blog for each member that has to update their progress each week "and show" the work they've done, what they have accomplished, etc. If nothing is done then NO, they get no help. You have to have action with IM if you expect anything to happen. All the production is the world is ok, but at the end of the day you have to have something to show for that work.

Now to other's reading this, I am responding to the quote above and no I'm not advertising my course because as mentioned "It's private."

I guess that's why it's called a swipe file collection ... unless of course, you purchased MRR for all that stuff. You actually don't have the right to distribute products that you buy. Even if you aren't distributing the actual products, you are distributing copyrighted sales copy, OTOs, etc. You say it's for study. How many of the "students" will just use someone else's sales copy as is?

Thanks
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CyberSorcerer

16 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Even if you aren't distributing the actual products, you are distributing copyrighted sales copy, OTOs, etc. You say it's for study. How many of the "students" will just use someone else's sales copy as is?

You do have a point there but I don't believe my students would resort to something like that. Granted my students are regular people that I don't believe think along those lines, but other internet marketing guru's do do that. I got the idea myself from one of those $1997 courses I purchased because one of the guru's gave away his swipe file collection to anyone that wanted it after finishing the 3 month course. I though that was a great idea.

True someone could use the copy, but then again sense the sales page is public ANYONE could do the same thing by just clicking on Save File and they've done it. You can do what done with duplicate content by just copying a paragraph of searching Google. You'd be surprise of how much sales copy is copied by newbies, on their own already.

Thanks

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globalpro

16 years ago

Putting aside the fact that you are dealing with some top level marketers here, I would think instead of worrying about the 'gurus' are, or are not doing, you would use what you are saying to your advantage.

You have an issue with what you are saying is a lack of concern from the 'gurus' through not responding directly to your questions/emails. It could be received as a slight to you on their part...

but I would think it better to focus on the fact that you are more hands on for your students and there to help them. People, for the most part, aren't stupid and can see soon enough who cares and who doesn't. For the most part, they would rather pay someone they feel is really there to help, instead of just being in it to make a buck.

For that matter, you could even charge more for what you do and people would pay it. I know I will pay more for any product or service, if I feel the level of support (personal touch) is there. I don't think I am alone in thinking this way.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Thanks,

John

Thanks

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CyberSorcerer

16 years ago

Well it's clear this thread has turned to what I'm doing in my course and what it's all about so it's turned to a kinda of self-promotion and that's not what I want to get into.

As mentioned before a swife file is simply a saved webpage. It does shock me that a forum of IM'ers don't know that, or even understand the concept.

I've spent to much time involved with this thread and will move onto helping some of the other people here asking for some help.

I guess if Alan doesn't like what I'm doing then I'll be banned and don't have to worry about it anymore, if not, then I'll stay and continue helping.

Thanks
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Richard Van

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

Well it's clear this thread has turned to what I'm doing in my course and what it's all about so it's turned to a kinda of self-promotion and that's not what I want to get into.

As mentioned before a swife file is simply a saved webpage. It does shock me that a forum of IM'ers don't know that, or even understand the concept.

I've spent to much time involved with this thread and will move onto helping some of the other people here asking for some help.

I guess if Alan doesn't like what I'm doing then I'll be banned and don't have to worry about it anymore, if not, then I'll stay and continue helping.

I don't think it's self promotion.

I think there's confusion, as I asked above your last post, between whether you show your students how other IMers are selling their products, by looking at their sales letters, emails and so forth OR if you are actually giving your students copies of the actual products that you bought as part of the course.

I just haven't seen that clarified and I think it's a very important point.

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CyberSorcerer

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

if you are actually giving your students copies of the actual products that you bought as part of the course.

I just haven't seen that clarified and I think it's a very important point.

Giving away actual products, really?

Look, no I'm not giving away actual products. If a swipe is such a foreign concept, really it's just saving a webpage, I can make a video tutorial showing everyone what it is, what it looks like, etc, and put it up on my YouTube channel.

Giving away the actual product is illegal and I haven't been in business for myself the last 15 years doing illegal stuff.

Thanks
1 reply

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Richard Van

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

Giving away actual products, really?

Look, no I'm not giving away actual products. If a swipe is such a foreign concept, really it's just saving a webpage, I can make a video tutorial showing everyone what it is, what it looks like, etc, and put it up on my YouTube channel.

Giving away the actual product is illegal and I haven't been in business for myself the last 15 years doing illegal stuff.

I'm well aware of what a swipe file is and in no way accusing you of anything. Sorry if it seemed that way. I just read the post and somethings didn't seem right and there was no clarification of the matters I found confusing. Thats all I was trying to figure out, a clear view of what you were doing, right or wrong.

I was in no means trying to start anything, I just think, in this case, perhaps, your wording, let you down. :confused:

Or perhaps as Kay has mentioned, not. It all boils down to whether the swipe file is part of the course you sell and one that you actually distribute to your students.

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JohnMcCabe

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

After my students are in my course for 2 months I give them my swipe file collection. This is a collection, separated into folders, of each product I've purchased along with the OTO, upsells, down sales, pages etc. Going over these are a good learning experience that cover's a lot about the pyschology of selling.

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

Sorry you didn't understand what a swipe file was, I just assumed every here knew what one was.

Before you ride off into the sunset, you might want to climb down off your high horse and look at the words you actually posted. Since more than one person read those words the way I did -- that each folder contained the various sales materials along with the product itself --it appears to be more a case of you being sloppy in your phrasing than us being ignorant of what a swipe file is.

Had you worded it as "the sales page for each product", you wouldn't be in the position you're in.

Talk about adding value... An ethics lecture AND condescension. Wow...:rolleyes:

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winds

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

Well it's clear this thread has turned to what I'm doing in my course and what it's all about so it's turned to a kinda of self-promotion and that's not what I want to get into.

As mentioned before a swife file is simply a saved webpage. It does shock me that a forum of IM'ers don't know that, or even understand the concept.

No, it's not self-promotion, and you shouldn't be in shock. We're all so curious because you just admitted to serious copyright violations.

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

Yes, as my wife can attest to. I have purchase over 100k in products...

After my students are in my course for 2 months I give them my swipe file collection. This is a collection, separated into folders, of each product I've purchased...

Thanks

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sbucciarel

Banned 16 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

Well it's clear this thread has turned to what I'm doing in my course and what it's all about so it's turned to a kinda of self-promotion and that's not what I want to get into.

As mentioned before a swife file is simply a saved webpage. It does shock me that a forum of IM'ers don't know that, or even understand the concept.

I've spent to much time involved with this thread and will move onto helping some of the other people here asking for some help.

I guess if Alan doesn't like what I'm doing then I'll be banned and don't have to worry about it anymore, if not, then I'll stay and continue helping.

We do know that. We use it for personal use only and don't distribute to people.

Thanks
1 reply

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CDarklock 16 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

We do know that. We use it for personal use only and don't distribute to people.

Which, I must note, is perfectly okay. When someone sends you an email, you have every right to keep it as long as you want. Similarly with a web page or a picture. Once the legitimate owner has sent you a copy - and everything we view on the web is, fundamentally, a copy - you can save that copy as long as you want and do anything at all with it... provided you do not distribute that copy to others.

Put more simply, it is entirely legal (in the United States) to buy a book, photocopy the entire thing, and sell the original. What you cannot do is borrow a book and photocopy the entire thing; nor can you give or lend the photocopy of a book you own to anyone else.

The only real right protected by copyright is the distribution right. Once copyrighted material is in your hands, you can make all the copies you want. You simply cannot distribute them.
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- AFI 16 years ago
  
  What is the difference between this thread and the other thread from about a month ago where the guy was selling copies of all of the WSOs and programs he'd bought? He was asking if it was ethical/legal and everyone said yes because it was like selling a book at a garage sale.
  
  I'm not sticking up for the OP, I'm just trying to understand myself the difference between him selling the stuff he's bought and the other guy who was selling everything he'd bought? Is it because the other guy was only selling one copy of everything? Dammit, I wish I could find that thread for reference....
  
  Basically he was like
  
  1. product 1 - I bought for $97 you can have it for $37
  2. product 2 - I bought it for $30 you can have it for $15
  
  etc.
  
  Why was everyone okay with that and this is different? :confused:
  
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  Paul Myers 16 years ago
  
  Jennifer,
  
  The only way that would be legal is if he's not keeping a copy for himself, and the terms of sale don't forbid it.
  
  Paul
  
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CyberSorcerer

16 years ago

Well Steve, I understand perfectly what's been said and I'm following along just fine.

Apparently, it's my lack of writing skill that's been my problem and I'm the first to admit I'm not the best at getting my point across in writing. English wasn't one of my strong subjects in school. That's why I have outsourcers handle my copywriting.

This thread started out directed at a particular post that was deleted and from there has gotten diverted into all forms or other areas, except dealing with the original subject of the post. I'm probably the blame for that too for answering each question as it came up and each question pretty much went in different directions.

So basically, I guess this thread has got confusing because of my lack of direction in handling it. I'm sorry for that and yes it did sound like I was mixing in products with copying, again better sentence structure could have solved that. Normally I research things I write and take my time but questions from this thread has been coming in at a good speed and I'm a little hasty in writing my answer and not proof reading my responses.

Ok, let me stop and post this because I'm even getting lost in where I'm at in my own answer!