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I'm getting a bit pissed off with this...

by Nick Brighton
47 replies
OK, I've bit my tongue for a while now, but this is tipping me over the edge.

I recently ran a WSO for a product which received a lot of great feedback. It was a solid, jam packed report for less than $10, which would put anyone on the path to making money with a solid business.

Not some overnight money BS - I don't believe in those. I'm a straight up marketer with straight up products, and I sell to people who "get it."

My sales copy doesn't mislead, it isn't blind, it doesn't make any false promises.

Now, my refund rate was well within the % you'd expect (less than 5%).

But for the last week, I've woken up to emails asking for a refund on their $9 purchase, without a reason.

One person did a chargeback which cost me $10 in fees, plus the lost sale, but others have the decency to ask first.

As a result of these refunds, Paypal sends me an email yesterday saying "due to the recent refunds on your account, we've placed a hold on all your money for 21 days."

This has never happened to me before... not since I started selling WSOs, or niche products, or services, since 2006 when I started.

So I'm kinda pissed off.

I don't mind giving refunds, and I totally understand if the product doesn't deliver, but my products are always way above the usual standard, always overdeliver, always contain unique ideas and strategies, and always give people a real money making plan of action.

What the heck has happened to this place?

I'm starting to wonder if selling WSOs around here is actually a damaging practice, rather than anything else.

As I say, my refunds aren't sky high, and I don't mind people requesting refunds for legitimate reasons, but something has to give with this.

I'm already in the crapper with Paypal, and as far as I see it, I haven't done anything wrong at all.

(if you're thinking, "yeah, but it's probably because your product isn't very good" then I urge you to take a look at my profile, my recent testimonials, what other people say about me and my marketing.

I'm not some kid who is copying pasting articles into Word, or telling people to make money by creating WSOs. My products are always unique, fresh, practical and effective.)

Sorry for the rant.

What are your thoughts on this?
#bit #pissed
  • Profile picture of the author Giani
    I have not faced such issue but I am curious to know what others say. There should be some solution to this.
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    • Profile picture of the author Drake Kerrigan
      I have yet to sell anything but about a week ago I also get the same email from paypal. Once upon a time I sold a few things on ebay. Old news. I called paypal yesterday and was told that the 21-day hold was put there because they reviewed my acct and noticed i didn't sell on ebay anymore (backwards logic?). However, they also said that the 21-day hold only applied to any ebay payments I may get, and that any other type of payment wouldn't be held. Now I'm a bit concerned that I was lied to.
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      • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
        oh, Nick...it's a sad reality that, unfortunately, exists.

        Your post perfectly embodies just about everything that has gone through my mind.

        My first WSO was a labor of love for months. Like you had said, it wasn't just thrown together overnight. You aren't alone on this one man....

        P.s. Of several hundred sales, I've had 5 or 6 refund requests. Two or three of them were sent directly to me, and I obliged immediately. The remainder went directly through Paypal. Consider the nature and context of the refunds...doing it within minutes of downloading....I decided to escalate the claims and I won every won.

        More oftentimes than not, I found that the same laziness that was involved in their unwillingness to apply my products...also manifested in their unwillingness to make a case for themselves to Paypal. I would get emails like "I want a refund just because..." or "I want a refund because the product isn't what you said it would be..."

        Over those small amount of people, I consistently banged my head against the wall trying to figure out exactly what it was about my sales copy or product that needed to be changed. Of course, they provided no feedback either.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by Giani View Post

      I have not faced such issue but I am curious to know what others say. There should be some solution to this.
      Hi Giani

      When I click on that link in your signature, it take me to a page where you're offering a bonus for buying someone else's product. On that page you tell people it's very important that they clear their cookies and to PM you after they've bought to get their bonus.

      Are you an affiliate of the product or do you like the product owner so much your giving away a bonus worth $5k because you want him to earn lots of money? :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Kennedy
    Are you referring to this WSO; http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...g-reviews.html

    If so, look at the bottom of your sales letter;

    P.P.S - If you don't like it, change your mind, or whatever else, then I'll happily issue a refund on the spot with a 90 day guarantee.
    If you don't want people to refund your product for whatever or no reason, don't offer this. There are plenty of WSO's that say "I'll gladly refund your money if you show proof that you did not succeed with this method in 60 days" or whatever.

    Only yourself to blame mate. Whilst a small majority of people are serial refunders, internet marketers that use this tactic often only have themselves to blame.
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    • Profile picture of the author AdmiralGloom
      Originally Posted by Scott Kennedy View Post

      Are you referring to this WSO; http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...g-reviews.html

      If so, look at the bottom of your sales letter;



      If you don't want people to refund your product for whatever or no reason, don't offer this. There are plenty of WSO's that say "I'll gladly refund your money if you show proof that you did not succeed with this method in 60 days" or whatever.

      Only yourself to blame mate. Whilst a small majority of people are serial refunders, internet marketers that use this tactic often only have themselves to blame.

      So to compare, how many people would buy the WSO with or without the refund.

      We are talking exactly or near 0, having a refund help you sell hundreds if not more.

      It is a trade off but at the same time he has put trust in the Warrior Forum as he has in the past, sadly it seems as if people have changed.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
      Originally Posted by Scott Kennedy View Post

      Are you referring to this WSO; http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...g-reviews.html

      If so, look at the bottom of your sales letter;



      If you don't want people to refund your product for whatever or no reason, don't offer this. There are plenty of WSO's that say "I'll gladly refund your money if you show proof that you did not succeed with this method in 60 days" or whatever.

      Only yourself to blame mate. Whilst a small majority of people are serial refunders, internet marketers that use this tactic often only have themselves to blame.
      Yeah, I guess you're right.

      Maybe it's time to start taking those guarantees away, at the cost of sales upfront.

      Or maybe I should reword the guarantee, to that it stipulates showing proof of action taken.

      I ran another WSO last year, and didn't mention a guarantee at all, and I had less refund requests... BUT one guy emailed me and said "give me a refund."

      I kindly told him that I don't offer refunds.

      But then I worried that he'll go and flame me publicly, or do a chargeback.

      You can't seem to win.

      In fact, the ONLY way to get around this is by selling phsyical items. But I can't see that going down well in the "instant gratification" WSO section.
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      • Profile picture of the author Scott Kennedy
        Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

        Yeah, I guess you're right.

        Maybe it's time to start taking those guarantees away, at the cost of sales upfront.

        Or maybe I should reword the guarantee, to that it stipulates showing proof of action taken.

        I ran another WSO last year, and didn't mention a guarantee at all, and I had less refund requests... BUT one guy emailed me and said "give me a refund."

        I kindly told him that I don't offer refunds.

        But then I worried that he'll go and flame me publicly, or do a chargeback.

        You can't seem to win.

        In fact, the ONLY way to get around this is by selling phsyical items. But I can't see that going down well in the "instant gratification" WSO section.
        Every business has the same problem. You just suck it up and deal with it. As I said, a lot of other WSO state that the owner will offer a refund if the customer can show proof that they implemented the strategy and it failed. In fact, I know of one WSO which offers this and that has sold 1,300+ copies. So I doubt it hurts upfront sales too much.
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      • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
        Originally Posted by AdmiralGloom View Post

        So to compare, how many people would buy the WSO with or without the refund.

        We are talking exactly or near 0, having a refund help you sell hundreds if not more.

        It is a trade off but at the same time he has put trust in the Warrior Forum as he has in the past, sadly it seems as if people have changed.
        To be honest, I haven't really seen much of a difference between products I sell with and products I sell without a guarantee.

        In fact, I've had more refunds when offering a guarantee, but not necessarily more sales compared to totally different products without one.

        That's a hard thing to measure accurately though, because they're two totally different products aimed at totally different people.

        I think the more you sway towards easy and quick, the more refunds you'll get, regardless of the product quality.

        It's just the mindset thing. There are a LOT of people on this forum who have been conditioned to be able to push a button and get rich.

        Somebody needs to regulate this industry a lot harder, if we don't want to see the whole game flushing down the crapper.
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        • Profile picture of the author Evan-M
          I once ( around 6 years ago) Was selling equipment on one of my sites, and a top seller that was out of stock had over 700 presales.

          there was around 70k in my paypal, and 3 people decided they didn't want to wait, and without telling me did a refund request.

          well before I could login to PayPal to fix the issue and send the refunds ( withing 10 min) I got another email saying my account was locked for recent activity.

          I still logged in and was able to refund them 3 sellers. but there was still 69k and change in the account.

          They put a 180 ( 6 MONTH! ) hold on the fund, and released it on the 180 day, to the second.

          and that is when I learned not to use PayPal...and if I really have to, to make sure I cash it out daily.

          refunds are one thing, but having the rest of your money held without reason is absolutely crazy!

          The problem with PayPal is everyone has it and they know it, so they can really get away with murder, and they know you will be forced to still use them lol

          What drove me even crazier, was after we got the product back in stock, 2 of the 3 Re-ordered! needless to say there orders were canceled.
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      • Profile picture of the author Vikram73
        Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

        In fact, the ONLY way to get around this is by selling phsyical items. But I can't see that going down well in the "instant gratification" WSO section.
        From what I can tell - the two niches which are infamous for refunds are Forex and MMO. IM/MMO seems to be filled with people who are just looking to get the WSO's and Clickbank products for free (not to mention how much stuff is just being pirated right now on other forums).

        I think it's going to get worse - more people are turning to IM for money and the quality and quantity of products is headed in the wrong direction.

        Might want to look into 'dog training' ;-)
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      • Profile picture of the author jan roos
        Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

        Yeah, I guess you're right.

        Maybe it's time to start taking those guarantees away, at the cost of sales upfront.

        Or maybe I should reword the guarantee, to that it stipulates showing proof of action taken.

        I ran another WSO last year, and didn't mention a guarantee at all, and I had less refund requests... BUT one guy emailed me and said "give me a refund."

        I kindly told him that I don't offer refunds.

        But then I worried that he'll go and flame me publicly, or do a chargeback.

        You can't seem to win.

        In fact, the ONLY way to get around this is by selling phsyical items. But I can't see that going down well in the "instant gratification" WSO section.
        I don't offer refunds on my WSO for this same exact reason. I don't want these product thieves to get their hands on my product because that just pisses me off like you won't believe. If someone really has a valid problem then I refund them no problem. I think I have lost sales because of this sure but the headache and frustration it saved me outweighs the lost sales so far IMO.

        Btw Nick, aren't you the guy who has all those golf products? If so, I'd love to get into that niche. Maybe you can give me some pointers.

        Cheers
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        • Profile picture of the author mrmanpower
          this is part of the game and I think that you should have a form that goes for refunding. they have to fill it out to be eligible and should include reasion etc.

          all the best,

          f
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    • Profile picture of the author suemax
      Originally Posted by Scott Kennedy View Post

      Are you referring to this WSO; http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...g-reviews.html

      If so, look at the bottom of your sales letter;



      If you don't want people to refund your product for whatever or no reason, don't offer this. There are plenty of WSO's that say "I'll gladly refund your money if you show proof that you did not succeed with this method in 60 days" or whatever.

      Only yourself to blame mate. Whilst a small majority of people are serial refunders, internet marketers that use this tactic often only have themselves to blame.
      Yes, I agree. You have set yourself up to be exploited whilst trying to open the sale up to everyone. Really, you DON'T want the deals that are only swung by those few words. There are plenty of real buyers out there. Cut out the real "I want you to shaft me" words.
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    • Profile picture of the author AFI
      Originally Posted by Scott Kennedy View Post

      Are you referring to this WSO; http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...g-reviews.html

      If so, look at the bottom of your sales letter;



      If you don't want people to refund your product for whatever or no reason, don't offer this. There are plenty of WSO's that say "I'll gladly refund your money if you show proof that you did not succeed with this method in 60 days" or whatever.

      Only yourself to blame mate. Whilst a small majority of people are serial refunders, internet marketers that use this tactic often only have themselves to blame.
      I was just going to say the same exact thing. Why offer a money back guarantee if you don't want people to take it?
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      • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
        Originally Posted by Evan-M View Post


        The problem with PayPal is everyone has it and they know it, so they can really get away with murder, and they know you will be forced to still use them lol
        This is the problem. If you offer a different method of payment around here, you'll likely make ZERO sales. Paypal have embedded themselves as the only way to conduct transactions for 90% of online purchases.

        Monopoly players have the puppets by the strings. Google are another example.

        I know PP are doing it for everyone's best interests, but like Google, they're elusive, withdrawn from customer service, unreachable, and often heavy handed without further inspection.

        Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey View Post

        Hi Nick,

        Here is your problem...demographics and customer targeting.

        When you are thinking up your next product, I urge you to keep in mind the target customer. If you attract poor and desperate people, you will see irrational behavior. It isn't there fault, they are desperate, and probably so busy looking for the next magic bullet before the gas bill arrives, they don't actually have any time to try anything they learn. This is, I believe, your serial refunder.

        If you attract wealthy people looking for extra information, they will act in a logical way. They will have time to assess what you have taught them, and ferret out the golden nuggets for themselves. I rarely buy a WSO that contains more than one golden nugget, but that justifies the purchase.

        Obviously the issue is much more complex, but I believe this is the basis of your current problem. You simply targeted a very desperate base of people, then saw the affects of that desperation.

        Cheers,
        Colin Palfrey
        Wise words... thanks Colin, you're bang on the money there.

        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        Hey Nick,

        Sorry to see you upset by this stuff but it really is of your own making.

        People will tell you that you should offer unconditional money back guarantees and that doing such things will mean more sales but you already know that there are serial refunders around and that this is like a red flag to a bull to them.

        Also - it's almost guaranteed that you WSOs will end up on other sites that share them for free, so there will also be some people who buy it and then realise they can download for free somewhere else and want their money back.

        These type of people are highly unlikely to actually use the information they get because they value it so poorly and don't take it seriously - they're after the magic bullet.

        So - while I completely understand your frustration - you're also creating the problem in part because you're shooting the low hanging fruit by offering it as a wso with such loose refund policies.

        I know it's tempting to try and get the maximum sales up-front with a wso but if you value your long-term business you really want to focus on the real customers who will be back to buy time and time again and value what you offer.

        Like Will said - make your back-end so sweet that people won't want to refund for fear of missing out on what else they could've got from you.

        At the end of the day - don't take it personally. I've made many more sales of stuff that took me 30 minutes to make than the things I spent months creating so once you're clear who your buyers are - just look after them in the way they want and ignore the rest.

        Andy
        Hey Andy, again, wise words. I couldn't agree more. I suppose I knew this deep down, but like you and Colin eluded to, I was targeting the wrong demographics in exhange for a higher front end return.

        Whereas my list subscribers are awesome, positive, friendly and helpful people... so I've kinda dug up the gold but dived in dirt to get it.

        Originally Posted by AFI View Post

        I was just going to say the same exact thing. Why offer a money back guarantee if you don't want people to take it?
        Well, that's true, albeit a simplistic way of looking at it, I can't really falter that logic
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  • Profile picture of the author AdmiralGloom
    I have been selling on eBay for a bit now.

    The 21 day is completely insane, and very annoying.

    Since eBay and PayPal are one in the same they really track what you sell on eBay but that is just ridiculous that they did that to you! I mean, guessing by your status on here you have probably have made quite a nice capital compared still to the refunds.

    Maybe give it a shot and talk to PayPal although they are tough to convince.

    But really, what could be an alternative?
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  • Profile picture of the author WillDL
    I can only say that I hate Paypal, with a passion, for entirely different reasons.

    As for the refunds, I've got nothing, it's the risk you run with no questions asked guarentees (I know, you know that) Has anyone ever tried changing their refund policy from "what ever reason" to "what ever reason as long as you tell me why in the e-mail"?

    Don't use whether the reason is legitimate or not as grounds for not refunding a purchase, but if they don't give one, or don't give a legit one, ban them from making purchases in the future.

    EDIT: Wow there were a lot of responses in the time it took me to post that.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    So to compare, how many people would buy the WSO with or without the refund.
    We are talking exactly or near 0, having a refund help you sell hundreds if not more.
    Anyone tested this theory?
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  • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
    Nick

    First off, I agree that it's a pain when someone asks for a refund when they have no good reason. I also agree with the Warrior above who said you should change the wording of your refund policy.

    That said, here's what you should do:

    1. Build a back-end
    2. Offer your best products to your repeat buyers
    3. Only offer the sign-up opportunity to those that have bought
    4. Delete people who refund for no good reason from your buyers list

    Over the course of time, you will have a very responsive list without the idiots.

    And good luck to you.

    Will
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    • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
      People who do a chargeback without requesting a refund
      first are the lowest of the low.

      And serial refunders are nearly as bad and will never succeed
      until they change their mindset and modus operandi.

      Annoying chargebacks, serial refunders, file sharers, etc are
      an unfortunate and very distasteful part of this business.

      It's REALITY.

      The quicker you accept it as an unfortunate part of doing
      business online the better.

      Instead, focus your attention on serving the prospects and
      customers who DO want to give you money continuously -
      that's where the money is.

      Focus on things you can control - not on things you can't
      control and your business will get better.

      Regarding money-back guarantees and refunds, I remember
      hearing Gary Halbert say that offline, he found that having
      a money-back guarantee in place on average doubled refunds,
      but actually tripled sales overall.

      Having a money-back guarantee tips some genuine people
      into buying your product (but some of the dregs in life push
      through too).

      C'est la vie.

      Dedicated to mutual success,

      Shaun
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
    Hi Nick,

    Here is your problem...demographics and customer targeting.

    When you are thinking up your next product, I urge you to keep in mind the target customer. If you attract poor and desperate people, you will see irrational behavior. It isn't there fault, they are desperate, and probably so busy looking for the next magic bullet before the gas bill arrives, they don't actually have any time to try anything they learn. This is, I believe, your serial refunder.

    If you attract wealthy people looking for extra information, they will act in a logical way. They will have time to assess what you have taught them, and ferret out the golden nuggets for themselves. I rarely buy a WSO that contains more than one golden nugget, but that justifies the purchase.

    Obviously the issue is much more complex, but I believe this is the basis of your current problem. You simply targeted a very desperate base of people, then saw the affects of that desperation.

    Cheers,
    Colin Palfrey
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  • Profile picture of the author Giani
    I think it is better not to write any guarantee clause. This would mean that only serious users who are interested in your product will buy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Hey Nick,

    Sorry to see you upset by this stuff but it really is of your own making.

    People will tell you that you should offer unconditional money back guarantees and that doing such things will mean more sales but you already know that there are serial refunders around and that this is like a red flag to a bull to them.

    Also - it's almost guaranteed that you WSOs will end up on other sites that share them for free, so there will also be some people who buy it and then realise they can download for free somewhere else and want their money back.

    These type of people are highly unlikely to actually use the information they get because they value it so poorly and don't take it seriously - they're after the magic bullet.

    So - while I completely understand your frustration - you're also creating the problem in part because you're shooting the low hanging fruit by offering it as a wso with such loose refund policies.

    I know it's tempting to try and get the maximum sales up-front with a wso but if you value your long-term business you really want to focus on the real customers who will be back to buy time and time again and value what you offer.

    Like Will said - make your back-end so sweet that people won't want to refund for fear of missing out on what else they could've got from you.

    At the end of the day - don't take it personally. I've made many more sales of stuff that took me 30 minutes to make than the things I spent months creating so once you're clear who your buyers are - just look after them in the way they want and ignore the rest.

    Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    I was just going to say the same exact thing. Why offer a money back guarantee if you don't want people to take it?
    It's not so much a matter of offering a refund for legitimate reasons, like I was possessed by evil spirits and they made me do it, but the dillweeds who abuse refunds just to get freebies.

    But you know, for a product under $10 I wouldn't offer a refund. If they can't afford to lose $10 then they shouldn't be buying MMO ebooks.
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    An interesting topic, and a common one, and why there is not a better understanding of refund policies and what triggers one and how to apply for a refund are not put together as a way to part solving the problem ? not sure.

    As for the part of not offering the refund it may breach some laws (I am not a legal legal / so may be wrong ) but in oz it is against the law to say to a consumer that there is no refund policy, and i would see this law extending to anything ip purchases on or offline ? if i purchases from a major retailer from an on line store be it a book or what ever it would hold, but where do country boundaries fall into play ?

    Misleading consumers about their rights Statutory rights are consumers’ rights which are implied in all consumer contracts by the Act. They cannot be changed, limited or refused by a seller. It is against the law for a seller to do anything that leads consumers to believe their rights are limited, or do not apply – for example, by claiming that no refunds will be given under any circumstances.

    also worth reading is the reasons for why a refund can be applied for, in particular, did the sales information provide misleading information ? did it imply one thing and not deliver on those words ?

    was the product faulty ? if it was an application ? / did or was the service delivered as described ?

    if things like that we stated in a refund policy along with a simple refund policy just because you changed your mind is not valid to request a refund and that if fault was found with the above options then the correct way to request a refund would be to send a pm or set up a support@mysite.com email then it may help to fix some of the problems ?

    Warranties and refunds

    /\ if people want to download a pdf that covers this stuff in simple terms it can be found here , it is easy to read and looks easy enough to adapt and create a short refund policy that should sort most problems.

    i can agree having your account hit by paypal by serial refunders must be a pain in the bum for all.
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  • Profile picture of the author anthony2
    Nick

    Some people are just scumbags.
    Now if someone ask for a refund because they feel the product
    just didn't deliver then I understand.
    But if you have people who just buy the product and within 15 mins
    ask for a refund. Especially if you have a product on clickbank or paypal
    it can really get bad if you have a serial refunder.

    Only thing I can really say to you Nick is... if you know you are making the
    high quality products, just keep on over delivering and if you keep getting serial
    refunders just black list them from buying anything from you
    again.

    hope that helps
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  • Profile picture of the author raycowie
    How about if you worded your 'guarantee' thus: "Within 60 days, if you're not satisfied that my product can do what it says, I'll gladly give you a refund, but you must contact me by PM first to arrange payment. Anyone refunded via chargeback will be automatically banned from future sales."

    Might work?

    Ray
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    • Profile picture of the author Diane S
      Originally Posted by raycowie View Post

      How about if you worded your 'guarantee' thus: "Within 60 days, if you're not satisfied that my product can do what it says, I'll gladly give you a refund, but you must contact me by PM first to arrange payment. Anyone refunded via chargeback will be automatically banned from future sales."

      Might work?

      Ray
      This sounds great, Ray, but I would take out the 'you must' as most people don't like to be told what they must do. How about "Within 60 days, if you're not satisfied that my product can do what it says, I'll gladly give you a refund if you contact me by PM first to arrange payment. Anyone refunded via chargeback without first requesting a refund via PM will be automatically banned from future sales."
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      • Profile picture of the author raycowie
        Yes, you're right. Your version sounds more friendly like.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Here's what I usually do (there have been exceptions). I offer refunds without question, BUT I don't tell people that I do so. Nowhere in the sales copy will it mention a guarantee, but if somebody asks for one, they get it.

    This way, you can feel good as a seller who wants to keep buyers happy. At the same time, you get rid of those whose sole intention is taking advantage of a printed guarantee.

    In your situation, Nick, I wonder if they would have froze your account if you escalated every refund request. After all, they rarely, if ever, side with buyers on digital items.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't honor your guarantee, but I think something is seriously wrong when a payment processor (any processor) is more likely to punish somebody for being a good guy, than if they're not.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Evan-M
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Here's what I usually do (there have been exceptions). I offer refunds without question, BUT I don't tell people that I do so. Nowhere in the sales copy will it mention a guarantee, but if somebody asks for one, they get it.

      This way, you can feel good as a seller who wants to keep buyers happy. At the same time, you get rid of those whose sole intention is taking advantage of a printed guarantee.

      In your situation, Nick, I wonder if they would have froze your account if you escalated every refund request. After all, they rarely, if ever, side with buyers on digital items.

      I'm not saying you shouldn't honor your guarantee, but I think something is seriously wrong when a payment processor (any processor) is more likely to punish somebody for being a good guy, than if they're not.

      All the best,
      Michael

      isn't that PayPals slogan ? lol
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    In your situation, Nick, I wonder if they would have froze your account if you escalated every refund request. After all, they rarely, if ever, side with buyers on digital items.
    There was a thread a while back on this topic and that was the conclusion that I came too, that digital products were not guaranteed a refund unless you stated so.

    You could also look into the Kunaki CD solution (search the forum for the thread). It's essentially a cheap solution for sending a hard copy of your product to buyers and this way you can require that the product is returned before a refund is issued.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ti
    This hasn't been mentioned, but there is a type of attack that IMers have been doing to other IMers lately. They initiate purchases and then force charge backs or refund. If there is enough of both, it will trigger Paypal and Clickbank to investigate and suspend your payment processor account.

    Very shade, unethical, and probably illegal. But it happens.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
      Originally Posted by Ti View Post

      This hasn't been mentioned, but there is a type of attack that IMers have been doing to other IMers lately. They initiate purchases and then force charge backs or refund. If there is enough of both, it will trigger Paypal and Clickbank to investigate and suspend your payment processor account.

      Very shade, unethical, and probably illegal. But it happens.
      Urm, how do you know that's happening?

      I don't mean to kick up dirt here, but that kind of statement puts you in a bad light... albeit unintentionally.

      Just a heads up on that one, nothing implied.
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  • Profile picture of the author SeoWizzard
    Maybe it would be a good idea to hire an expert to take a look over your sales page and everything, maybe you can get some tips... also try talking to paypal and explain the situation.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
    Some interesting ideas going on here.

    One thing is very clear though... selling information is highly ambiguous when it comes to "delivering what is advertised."

    At what point does that become valid?

    How can you - or Paypal - argue the toss? Is Paypal really going to send a representative to the advertisement and then asses the product to see if it holds water?

    You see, that's my beef with PP. They punish you for other people's laziness, theft, or lies.

    I'm not saying anyone who requests a refund is a lazy, thieving liar (lol) but the point is, Paypal assumes none of them are, and therefore punishes the seller, regardless of history or any significant detail.

    Seems very unfair to me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anonymous Affiliate
    Lesson for you: do not use PayPal for any serious payment processing. I had a 3-year-old verified business account blocked with over $100k in transaction history for some stupid nonsense. It took me 2 weeks to get the account back up on its feet.

    Ever since, I only use paypal to transfer money to my employees, that's all.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      Lesson for you: do not use PayPal for any serious payment processing. I had a 3-year-old verified business account blocked with over $100k in transaction history for some stupid nonsense. It took me 2 weeks to get the account back up on its feet.

      Ever since, I only use paypal to transfer money to my employees, that's all.
      So who do you use then? How do you process payments in a world of people who demand Paypal checkout?
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    • Profile picture of the author BruceWood
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      Lesson for you: do not use PayPal for any serious payment processing. I had a 3-year-old verified business account blocked with over $100k in transaction history for some stupid nonsense. It took me 2 weeks to get the account back up on its feet.

      Ever since, I only use paypal to transfer money to my employees, that's all.
      This raises a question. What are alternetive payment processors, other than opening an account with itransact or one of the big credit card processors (which isn't exactly easy for a small IM)?
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      • Profile picture of the author Anonymous Affiliate
        Originally Posted by BruceWood View Post

        This raises a question. What are alternetive payment processors, other than opening an account with itransact or one of the big credit card processors (which isn't exactly easy for a small IM)?
        There are many: 2CheckOut, Clickbank, Plimus, eJunky, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Hunter
    Is there not a way to allow people to JUST pay with Paypal?

    Doesn't 2Checkout offer this ability so that the money received doens't go into your Paypal account?
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
    Originally Posted by JsamsonNJ View Post

    I did not see it, however how are product sales outside of the WF? Do you get as many refund requests when selling off the WF WSO or are these products specifically targeted to warriors?
    I think I've had ONE refund request across all my niche businesses since 2006... outside the WF.

    I think that probably speaks volumes.

    Originally Posted by Gordon Gekko View Post

    Lol....
    I had a guy file a claim with Paypal within 30 mins. after buying one of my products. Was it because the product was bad? No. He simply told paypal, "I bought this product without thinking and I need the money back for upcoming bills."

    At least the guy was honest, but however, that's bull. Even though I despise gaypal, I do like the fact that they didn't side with that guy.
    LOL. I like the one where the guy buys it on Monday, then Tuesday evening comes around and he's suddenly had a family emergency (non-specific) and he won't have any time to implement this amazing strategy, and he "needs all the money he can get" to cope with this problem...

    ... including the $9 he just paid you.

    Highly original.
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    • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
      Nick, I feel for you, but maybe your wording and layout is attracting they wrong sort of buyer.

      A bit like a pub opening up and advertising half price beer, it tends to attract the "wrong" type of people, where as one opening next door advertising high class beer and wine tends to get the mature clients who can afford to pay the premium for quality.

      You sales copy talked about "sneeky" and "Cheaters" plus it sounds like it's easy to do and doesn't require any work. "hands free" Maybe the people that are attracted to it think it will be a push button method that they don't have to do anything with.
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