A-Plays, B-Players, C-Players

25 replies
I was recently on a phone call where the topic of
"A-player" or "A-listers" came up as it pertains
to internet marketing, and it caused me to smile.

I was taught long ago that there are generally
three "levels" of players in business... and my
mentor was referring to IM

- Those at your level
- Those above your level
- Those below your level

People are constantly moving up and down although
hopefully, for those doing thing right, it's a steady
upward climb. My mentor was actually teaching me never
to discount anyone or think of them as "below my
level."

In IM, when you here the term "A-lister" there are
referring to those that they perceive are making the
most money.... usually.

People that I've engaged in private conversations
right here on the forum, that I'd never heard of
previously, turned out to be "the millionaire next
door"... someone that you'd guess was struggling at
first glance. I don't think ANY of those made their
money selling how to make money products. Some did in
software, but it wasn't software just for the IM crowd.

What caused me to smile during that phone call is the
fact that even among the apparent A-listers, many of
them don't really know how well, or how poorly, others
are really doing.

I mentor several A-listers, and consult from time to
time with others. They turn to me because I HAVE been
around IM forever, and I do understand marketing...
both online and offline.

Internet marketing is such a tiny pond of players
though

At an IM seminar not TOO long ago, I sat across the
table for one non-IMer with a net worth of something
over $300 million. He didn't "get" the IM space.

At another event, a friend put out the world that
he and his inner circle had millions to lend... for
the right opportunity. They were mostly interested
in energy and construction at the time, but they
offered me a finders fee for pointing deals their way.

You are a part of an amazing community here. There are
many players at all levels.... and in the bigger
picture that matters less than which players can help
you... to your mutual benefit.

People are fascinating... aren't they?

Willie
#aplays #bplayers #cplayers #gurus #players #top marketers
  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Willie,

    People certainly are. I remember back in the mid-1990's when a disheveled man walked into our office of over 20 financial advisors. He was clearly dirty from a hard day's work, wore a large cowboy hat, and was accompanied by a young man who we later found out was his son.

    The man was looking for a financial advisor and nobody rushed to help him, including me. One of the junior staff members eventually invited him into his office, closed the door, and began talking to the man. A couple hours later we found out that the man owned a landscaping business worth over 1.5 million dollars and he had over 600,000 US dollars in a savings account. Everyone, except the junior advisor, missed out a nice commission, but just as important, missed out on meeting one heckofa nice guy with a lot of business street smarts.

    You just never know about people, until you get a chance to know them. And yes, we are a very small pond in the business world, even smaller in the world in general.

    RoD "I've-got-Tiger-Coffee!" CorteZ
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Willie, several of my students have gone on to surpass me by leaps and bounds.

      It makes me smile.

      Truth is, I think very few people around here really know what's going on
      out there outside of their small little circle of "IM" friends.

      In a recent post, I essentially told folks that there is a huge world out there
      that, quite honestly, makes even some of the top IMers look like small potatoes.

      Seriously, do you think Donald Trump even knows who 99% of the "top"
      names in our biz are?

      In the grand scheme of things, many of these folks who we look up to are
      small potatoes. Hell, I don't even consider myself a blip on the map.

      That's why when I see anybody with a big ego who thinks they're God's
      gift to IM, I have to smile.

      Believing your own press is one of the biggest mistakes anybody can make.

      The only thing that matters to me, when all is said and done at the end
      of the day, if one thing...Have I helped somebody?

      If I have, I've had a good day and made a difference. If I haven't, then all
      I'm doing is taking up space. It's part of the reason why I have gone into
      semi retirement. I just didn't feel that I was helping anybody, regardless of
      whose fault it was. Ultimately, the buck stops here and if I'm not helping
      somebody then I'm not doing my job.

      I know I've gone off on a bit of a tangent but I think it's important for
      people to keep things in perspective.

      No matter how great you think you are, there is somebody out there with
      a lot more success than you have.

      That's something I learned a long time ago and has helped to keep me
      somewhat humble. Yeah, I get on my high horse from time to time, but for
      the most part, I realize that I can learn just as much from John Nobody as
      I can from Joe Success.

      We all have different lessons to teach.
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      • Profile picture of the author bretski
        I had my accountant tell me the same thing a few years back after I asked him if he had any millionaires for clients. He told me that the ones with the real money were the ordinarly looking folks who drove nondescript cars, usually dressed in a flannel shirt and jeans and the money meant nothing to them. They didn't measure their success in dollars but in what they had accomplished and learned in life and business. The challenge was in building the business and providing for their families right then and in the future.

        That just always sort of stuck with me... and thanks for reminding me, Willie.
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      • Profile picture of the author drmani
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        No matter how great you think you are, there is somebody out there with
        a lot more success than you have.
        ...
        We all have different lessons to teach.
        Great post, Steven.

        One of my favorite poems is Max Ehrmann's "Desiderata"

        Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
        and remember what peace there may be in silence.
        As far as possible without surrender
        be on good terms with all persons.
        Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
        and listen to others,
        even the dull and the ignorant;
        they too have their story.

        Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
        they are vexations to the spirit.
        If you compare yourself with others,
        you may become vain and bitter;
        for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

        Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. "

        (there's more - here)

        All success
        Dr.Mani
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    • Profile picture of the author LB
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      Willie,

      People certainly are. I remember back in the mid-1990's when a disheveled man walked into our office of over 20 financial advisors. He was clearly dirty from a hard day's work, work a large cowboy hat, and was accompanied by a young man who we later found out was his son.

      The man was looking for a financial advisor and nobody rushed to help him. One of the junior staff members invited him into his office, closed the door, and began talking to the man. A couple hours later we found out that the man owned a landscaping business worth over 1.5 million dollars and he had over 600,000 US dollars in a savings account. Everyone, except the junior advisor, missed out a nice commission, but just as important, missed out on meeting on heckofa nice guy with a lot of business street smarts.

      You just never know about people, until you get a chance to know them. And yes, we are a very small pond in the business world, even smaller in the world in general.

      RoD "I've-got-Tiger-Coffee!" CorteZ
      I have a similar story.

      Many years back I sold jewelery in a high-end shop. One weekend a guy came in looking much the same- covered in dirt and wearing a cowboy hat. No one helped him. Thank goodness, I was too new to have any preconceived notion about him! It ended up being his 20th anniversary and he was looking for something special...to the tune of about $20,000.

      I made a nice commission that day.
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  • Profile picture of the author glopin2003
    Great info and so true Willie!
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  • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
    Steve, I've often thought of joining you in that semi-retirement.

    I could spend months on end lazing away on some beach in
    the South Pacific.

    With the internet and VOIP and outsourcing, I keep thinking
    that even if I keep doing the work that I'm doing, I could do
    it while doing a lot more traveling.

    ... and you're right about the tendency to eventually believe
    your own press... although, I see nothing wrong with deciding
    what you're going to be, declaring it to "the universe" and then
    letting it happen.

    Finding a niche that provides a sustainable, more than adequate
    life-style, and then sticking with it, while spending more time
    enjoying life, does have a certain appeal.

    Maybe were just getting old

    Willie
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  • Profile picture of the author theory expert
    Banned
    My God Father was a nondescript millionaire at one time in his life. He owned a blue collar business that still is functioning today thanks to his biological son. The only signs of wealth you would see was the company trucks he owned. The wife drove a nondescript car, and, they lived in a modest home. He was a great guy R.I.P.

    P.S. Great reminder of you never know who you might meet.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Lamb
    I'm pretty new here, and have found this to be a fascinating community for the reasons you mentioned. There's this strange dichotomy of helpfulness and secretiveness.

    People here on the WF seem very willing to help each other on general points, but keep a pretty tight lid on their exact methods and income.

    I've also noticed that there seems to be very little teamwork in most IM endeavors. We're all just floating around in our own little bubbles doing our thing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
      Originally Posted by David Lamb View Post

      I'm pretty new here, and have found this to be a fascinating community for the reasons you mentioned. There's this strange dichotomy of helpfulness and secretiveness.

      People here on the WF seem very willing to help each other on general points, but keep a pretty tight lid on their exact methods and income.

      I've also noticed that there seems to be very little teamwork in most IM endeavors. We're all just floating around in our own little bubbles doing our thing.

      Part of what you observe is necessary in that there are those who don't
      model an idea, but blatantly steal it, and some as bold enough to copy
      your website and even link to your download page if practical.

      That's of course, not the norm, so if you have something that's working
      exceedingly well, you might not want to post it here.

      The teamwork problem that you speak of is often caused because lots
      of people aren't willing to put their pet project on hold to help others
      with theirs. So, you do have a dozen people in the same space, launching
      similar/competing products to the same people, and often competing
      for the same affiliates.

      The solution there is obvious.

      The problems that you describe are more prevalent in some
      niches than others though.

      Willie
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  • Profile picture of the author Tinu
    Oh Willie. Great post. As a professional Warrior Forum Lurker, you know it really takes something for me to say something given my totally ridiculous forum phobia. lol

    Anyway, the thing about what you've written here that fascinates me is the flip side of the coin. Not only is it smart not to discount anyone and think of them as below your level. Not only are most of the people you'd consider above your level humble and gracious (if you approach them correctly and not like they owe you something).

    Not only are those same people Not posing, because they have nothing to prove, and no need to swell with ego....

    It's truly amazing how -- and why -- people who have all the trappings of wealth are often in debt up to their eyeballs, and have to work ridiculous hours just to stay afloat.

    And also how much people assume that a person who is well known is rich. Or people who aren't known can't possibly have any money. I've been guilty of it. And those assumptions man, they kick my butt. Every time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
    So, are all the IMers just C-Players in the big scheme of marketing, business, wealth?

    LOL, it reminds me of the soccer leagues back home:
    There was an A and B and C league - they were on the national level.
    Then there was the county leagues... and the local city/town league... and of course, every village had its own team.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
    I posted this in a thread here one time before, but I know a guy that owns a small roofing company that does $30 Mil a year... Its a little mom and pop company in Atlanta. As far as I've seen, thats the most any "A-list" IM person is claiming to make a year.

    So, I guess the "A-list" for IM can be the "C-list" or less for real bricks and mortar business. And believe me, my roofer buddy isn't doing any webinars about how to copy his exact method of roofing etc... That's why I often think the whole selling shovels thing is mis-used and damaging. When EVERYBODY is trying to sell shovels, the dude who picks one up and actually uses it will be the one making all the money.
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    • Profile picture of the author Matthew Iannotti
      I don't buy into the whole A-Players , C-Players, B-Players thing. I do think there are levels of our success - but that "GURU A Player" has got to go..

      We are all equal no matter how much money we make. I made over 100k my first 6 months online and will make much more than that in the next 6. It doesn't make me any better than the marketer who makes 1k per year.

      The terms A Players generally have marketers with huge list in the 6-7 digit number that can promote their product while the so called C player does not but makes a decent income online. That is why I do not buy into the levels of players. Take that same A player minus his contacts and lets see how well he can do on his own like some of us are doing now with success. If anything, I often look at a decent clickbank launch and think, man, if that guy didn't have all those people promoting, what would he really make. I bet he wouldn't do better then me

      I commend Willie & Steve, mentoring is not an easy and the level of your success should be measured in knowledge and success stories and not wealth or how much you make from it.
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      • Originally Posted by Matthew Iannotti View Post

        I don't buy into the whole A-Players , C-Players, B-Players thing. I do think there are levels of our success - but that "GURU A Player" has got to go..

        We are all equal no matter how much money we make. I made over 100k my first 6 months online and will make much more than that in the next 6. It doesn't make me any better than the marketer who makes 1k per year.

        The terms A Players generally have marketers with huge list in the 6-7 digit number that can promote their product while the so called C player does not but makes a decent income online. That is why I do not buy into the levels of players. Take that same A player minus his contacts and lets see how well he can do on his own like some of us are doing now with success. If anything, I often look at a decent clickbank launch and think, man, if that guy didn't have all those people promoting, what would he really make. I bet he wouldn't do better then me
        In the first place, everybody starts out at the same place - the bottom.

        The successful ones learn and apply what they learn to go on a do great
        things. The more they apply, the faster they succeed.

        Having a ton of contacts and lists in the upper 5 and 6 figure range is
        what makes them 'A-Listers' in my book. They've earned the position
        because of their hard work and persistence.

        You say "Where would they be without their contacts and big lists?"

        Take the case of Frank Kern when the FTC came down on him a few
        years ago. He lost all his assets, and most of his "friends" wouldn't
        touch him, but he's back - bigger and badder than ever.

        Take away Willie Crawford's list(s) and his contacts - leave him nothing but
        a computer and an internet connection, and he'll still be back within 6
        months to a year simply by virtue of being an 'A-Lister' and the knowledge
        of what it takes to achieve that level of success.

        Mike Filsaime, Armand Morin, Shawn Casey, Tellman Knudsen, Willie Crawford,
        Mark Hendricks, Marlon Sanders, Yanik Silver, Johnathan Mizel, to name
        a few; all these guys have built multi-million dollar companies out of
        nothing but sweat and a dream.

        As far as the marketing world goes, these are among the elite - the
        cream of the crop, so to speak, and have earned the right to be 'A-Listers'.

        Now, I'll finish up by saying - if you made 100K the first 6 months, then
        you're an 'A-Lister', or well on your way to being one. Most people
        don't make a dime the first 6 months, and some even the first year so my
        hat's off to you. You deserve, and have, my respect.

        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author PatriciaJ
          I've met allsorts while running a home business and from all walks of life and that's one of the great things about it all.

          I had a business meeting a few years back with this middle aged long haired guy who turned up wearing a t shirt and jeans and his t shirt had spilt food stains down the front. You would never have guessed that he was a millionaire to look at that's for sure.

          The several hours that I spoke with him were some of the most fascinating hours that I've ever spent. It was almost as if I could see his mind working on overdrive, the ideas and the speed of his thought process as we jumped from one idea to another were amazing.

          Not surprising that he was successful really and I'm sure that one of the things that attributed to his success was that he had the knack of making you feel like an equal and as if your opinion was extremely important to him.

          A few months later I interviewed him for a magazine column that I wrote and he said that his proudest moment as far as business was concerned was discovering an international singing star in a bar, not how much he made from the discovery.
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      • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
        Originally Posted by Matthew Iannotti View Post

        Take that same A player minus his contacts and lets see how well he can do on his own like some of us are doing now with success. If anything, I often look at a decent clickbank launch and think, man, if that guy didn't have all those people promoting, what would he really make. I bet he wouldn't do better then me
        I hear you but the difference IS often not marketing skills, BUT their
        contacts... and the cooperation they can get out of them.

        On the CB launches, I don't know the actual stats from many of them,
        so I don't feel qualified to comment on that. I will say that on and
        off clickbank, I sometimes quote the sales stats as much as I question
        the claims made on the salespages

        Willie
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    • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
      Originally Posted by Kevin_Hutto View Post


      So, I guess the "A-list" for IM can be the "C-list" or less for real bricks and mortar business.
      If measured by income, but given that many get into IM because of
      the low start-up capital requirement, it's still a major accomplishment.

      And believe me, my roofer buddy isn't doing any webinars about how to copy his exact method of roofing etc...
      But many in other industries do license their proprietary
      systems, tools, etc. That is one way to gain tremendous
      leverage.

      That's why I often think the whole selling shovels thing is mis-used and damaging. When EVERYBODY is trying to sell shovels, the dude who picks one up and actually uses it will be the one making all the money.

      In some circles, you are left wondering if anyone has actually even
      DONE what they are teaching...or is it all theory... and outsourced
      research.

      Willie
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    • Profile picture of the author theory expert
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Kevin_Hutto View Post

      I know a guy that owns a small roofing company that does $30 Mil a year...
      That's the same biz my Godfather was in.


      P.S. Love the responses everyone.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        - Those at your level
        - Those above your level
        - Those below your level
        Also important - no matter how high you fly...there is always someone flying a little bit higher. No matter how low you think your level is, it's unlikely you are the lowest knob on the totem pole.

        kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Seatbelt99
        Thanks for the thread and all the posts everyone!

        From this sub-C-Lister (lol) it is motivating. Hopefully I'll someday be what people consider an A-Lister, even if nobody ever knows it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Spot on Willie.

    I've known many IMers over the years who have gone from nothing to something and back to nothing, so whatever someone's situation when you meet them, you're only getting a snapshot in time.

    I've always treated everyone the same. I've met royalty, pop stars and successful business people but I still give the guy who sweeps the road the same respect as a millionaire, not because he might get rich later, but because we're all just doing what we can with the resources we have.

    In a way the same thing has always applied to link building in IM. Some people don't go for low PR links, but every site starts out with low PR so if you operate based on relationships rather than statistics you get your best links before the site becomes popular and valuable.

    Thanks for reminding me what great people there are in this community.

    Andy
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    nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    I remember a dirty, smelly guy coming in the dealership when I was a rookie. He had a paper bag lunch and had different color socks (with holes) on and no one would wait on him. Sold him a new 1983 Toyota Supra for a $1200 commission and he tipped me a thousand bucks! Needless to say, wasn't lunch in that paper bag. (Plus he came back and through 7 years bought his whole family cars (9 of them) always at sticker and always tipped me).
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  • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
    Sometimes we forget, there are those who would just as soon "fly low and collect the dough" as to have their name splashed across the Internet. So, here is a link to a FREE pdf, which gives some ideas and a few stories about some of those "under the radar" types.

    http://www.angelfire.com/biz/gjbiz/myflylow2.pdf

    I'd rather spend time with Tiny the tow truck driver than with a guy who uses "ornamental magnifiers" to inflate his ego.

    A little dirt under the nails is a sign of a working man.

    Willie Crawford has been at it a long time, few of you remember his humble start, it has been fun to watch him soar as high as the planes he used to work on.

    gjabiz

    PS. And a darn right nifty BBQ expert too.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
    What a great thread. Thanks Willie. My father was a lawyer for just over 40 years in the UK. He had clients that struggled to pay his bills and clients that were worth high 8 figure sums and some low 9 figure sums. I always remember being disappointed when I was introduced to one of these vastly wealthy guys (a farmer) as a kid I wasn't expecting him to look 'normal'. I guess I was expecting in your face bling rather than a understated smart attire and a 4 year old merc!
    I recently met a guy that is quietly making authority forums which make him 6 figure incomes from advertising before he flips them for multiple 7 figure sums. You won't know him. He works under a number of pen names and as he says he quietly does his thing and has no interest in being 'outed'!
    Funny old world as my grandad used to say.

    Rich
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