I Am Learning A Lot From My List...And YOU Can Too

33 replies
This week I tried something totally different with my various lists. The
results have been interesting to say the least.

First of all, let me give some background info on how I normally treat my
lists.

Each list gets a regular newsletter sent out. Some lists have a series of 52
weeks, others 62, and some only 17 weeks or around that amount. But each
list gets good quality content.

The mailings vary. Some lists get mailed once a week, others every 3 or 4
days.

Each list will get a sales pitch mixed in with that about once every 3 mailings.

There you go. That's my normal routine. It has served me very well over
the few years I have been list building.

Sound reasonable? Anybody see any problems? Any comments? Please
feel free to chime in.

Okay, this week I tried something different.

On December 13, I sent a broadcast email to all my lists saying that I
would be running a special 12 Days of Christmas sale starting on the 14th
and that they would be receiving one email a day in addition to whatever
regular email they were scheduled to get, with a different special offer
each day for 12 days.

I then told them that if they weren't happy about getting that many
emails and didn't want to receive them that the unsubscribe link was
below and that they should use it. I put it right below my signature so
that they didn't have to hunt for it.

I was upfront, warned them that this would be unusual activity for their
list and gave them the option to opt out BEFORE they got any of the
emails.

Now mind you, these are lists that up until now, they were receiving
quality content on a regular basis and very few sales pitches. And up
until this point, my opt out level has been virtually non existent.

So what happened?

About 2% of my total list members unsubscribed right away.

2%

That's a pretty hefty figure. And mind you, these are people who were
pleased enough with my content to stay on, some for a very long time.

So, what did this tell me?

It told me this, without any doubt in my mind. These people were tire
kickers, only interested in sucking me dry for all the info that they could
get and had no intention of ever buying a thing from me.

So I say...good riddens to bad rubbish.

But...something else happened.

I had other people emailing me asking me what the specials were going
to be in advance. Naturally I told them they'd have to wait to find out
just like everybody else.

And then, and this is the best part, I guess because of stupid spam filters
and unreliable email delivery, I had people emailing me after the first 4 days
complaining that they didn't get one of the day's offers.

Imagine that. They were upset because they didn't get sold to that day.

The people who are your customers, who value your products and your
knowledge...they want what you have to offer. They'll beg for you for it
even.

So many new marketers think that you can't sell to people, that it's
almost impossible to make sales, that you could give away the store but
as soon as you make a pitch, they're gone.

This experience of mine proves that this just isn't so.

Give the people what they want. Make them an offer that they can't
refuse...and they will beg you to sell them stuff.

Now I have to try to explain to people why they may not be getting
their emails because I have been getting a lot of complaints about this.

And people aren't happy when they can't buy stuff from you.

Don't ever forget it.
#learning #list #lot
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Money
    Hey Steve,

    I'm on your list and didn't unsubscribe, I've just been deleting the emails to be honest. I just don't want to buy anything right now. I like the idea though and I think it's a great offer, it's probably helping out a good handful of people. You're right about the tire kickers. No sweat.
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  • Profile picture of the author tomw
    The key insight from this is that when dealing with loyal customers and advocates, if you set it up in advance they'll expect it. If you don't deliver when you say you will they'll demand it. You'll rarely lose them unless you do something pretty extraordinarily wrong. They'll buy time and time again and, as long as you set it up in advance, you can lead them into adjacent markets and diversify your offering.

    Great post and AGAIN(!) a reminder about how vital building a list is for sustained income, long term viability and real growth potential.
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  • Profile picture of the author kazakhan
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    About 2% of my total list members unsubscribed right away.

    2%

    That's a pretty hefty figure. And mind you, these are people who were
    pleased enough with my content to stay on, some for a very long time.
    I think you have it backwards, 98% were still interested
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by kazakhan View Post

      I think you have it backwards, 98% were still interested
      I know. It's just that I never had a 2% opt out at one time. My opt outs
      are virtually non existent because of how I treat my lists. So this was kind
      of a surprise to me, though I know I shouldn't have been surprised as I know
      there will always be those who are just there to take what they can.
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      • Profile picture of the author kazakhan
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I know. It's just that I never had a 2% opt out at one time.
        You dared them pretty much and only 2% opted out, that's impressive!
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      • Profile picture of the author Barbara Eyre
        I am on one of your lists ... I did not unsubscribed ... and have bought 2 of your specials. I rarely buy (mainly because money has been tight) and I'm sorry I had to wait until these great informational materials were on sale. But I highly appreciate these Christmas gifts and have already put several points learned to use.

        As for your unsubscribes. Yes, many were probably your tire kickers as already mentioned. Others probably just took the opportunity to ween themselves off of lists period.

        Up to you to mention or not, Steven, but of your remaining 98% ... what has been your open and buy conversion rates thus far? And wouldn't those stats be more meaningful than the unsubscribe rate?
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  • Profile picture of the author Eric Johnson
    Wags dares ya...

    it's time to back down folks.

    I'm actually fairly impressed with the cajones of the folks who dared opt out
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  • Profile picture of the author utproducts
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by qkz283 View Post

      Hey Steven, do you care sharing how many people 2% is?

      If not, I completely understand.
      While I'd like to keep my list size private (some people wouldn't believe it)
      I can say this much. It took only 2 days for me to replace the 2% that I
      lost through new opt ins.

      It was a shock to see so many leaving like that.

      Guess I must have really ticked them off.
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  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    I write emails all the time with the express intent of
    agitating people so they unsubscribe. Sounds worse than
    it is. I'm like, "there goes another dead-weight subscriber".

    The funny thing is by pissing-off one crowd you get another
    crowd more interested in what you are doing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Preuss
    Steven,

    A valuable lesson you give here.

    Hate to say it, but if your list is that large you should be making 4 to 5 times what you are currently making every month. Just sayin'.

    The common consensus among ultra successful marketers is if you're not losing 10-15% of your list regularly you are not selling hard enough.

    Now, for quality and relationship reasons I don't agree with that entire premise. And you clearly don't either.

    However it appears you may be at the complete other end of the spectrum where you are extracting the bare minimum amount of dollars for the value you deliver.

    Just something to consider.

    Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Ken Preuss View Post

      Steven,

      A valuable lesson you give here.

      Hate to say it, but if your list is that large you should be making 4 to 5 times what you are currently making every month. Just sayin'.

      The common consensus among ultra successful marketers is if you're not losing 10-15% of your list regularly you are not selling hard enough.

      Now, for quality and relationship reasons I don't agree with that entire premise. And you clearly don't either.

      However it appears you may be at the complete other end of the spectrum where you are extracting the bare minimum amount of dollars for the value you deliver.

      Just something to consider.

      Ken

      No arguments here Ken. I have under promoted to my lists since day 1.

      I have no plans to change that either. I'm happy with the way my
      business is going. The money is good enough that I don't have to worry
      and I don't get a lot of emails like "You're just like all the other gurus. All
      you do is sell and sell."

      Call me crazy, but knowing my list actually likes me is more important to me than soaking every last time out of them that I can.
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      • Profile picture of the author neddag
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Call me crazy, but knowing my list actually likes me is more important to me than soaking every last time out of them that I can.
        Careful with that one. There's a pretty fine line there I think.

        I remember the first list I ever built probably about 5 years ago in a non IM niche. I was so excited to actually have a list with real live subscribers that wanted to hear from me. I gave them only the highest quality information.

        The list was only several thousand strong but boy were they devoted. Unsubscribes were almost non-existent. They wrote me all the time, thanked me constantly, sent me online Christmas cards etc. Boy did I feel good inside. I felt like a million bucks. And I made zero bucks every time I tried to promote something.

        Why would they buy something when I was giving it all to them for free?

        I still give my lists quality stuff, but I have learned to also hold some stuff back.

        As for that old list, I finally sent an email saying they would probably only hear from me once every couple of months or so. And I still do mail them. And I still don't make a dime from that list.

        Ned
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  • Profile picture of the author ShaunAllen
    I am one of those people that love to buy things. If you have a great product I want to know about it. I buy things in a variety of niches. I like a little content mixed in with a pitch for most e-mails. But I don't make getting 50% discount e-mail either.

    P.S.

    Did I mention I like buying things? As do most people so give them a reason to buy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    Steve,

    I'm on your list[s].

    You give great value in your pitches, and I ALWAYS read, and ALWAYS learn...even if I don't always buy.

    I just wanted to mention one thing...

    they will beg you to sell them stuff.
    Not true. When was the last time you begged someone to sell you something?

    Sure, anticipation...but desperation? Nah.

    Mostly, folks are looking out for their lives...not begging for IM products.

    I understand your sentiment, though.

    Keep the quality coming, Wags. My inbox would feel empty without it.

    Cheers,
    Steve
    Signature

    Not promoting right now

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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

      Steve,

      I'm on your list[s].

      You give great value in your pitches, and I ALWAYS read, and ALWAYS learn...even if I don't always buy.

      I just wanted to mention one thing...



      Not true. When was the last time you begged someone to sell you something?

      Sure, anticipation...but desperation? Nah.

      Mostly, folks are looking out for their lives...not begging for IM products.

      I understand your sentiment, though.

      Keep the quality coming, Wags. My inbox would feel empty without it.

      Cheers,
      Steve

      Actually Steve, I have had people write to me telling me that they didn't
      get my special the other day and begged me to send them the link.

      I am NOT kidding, though I have to say I was quite surprised.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Actually Steve, I have had people write to me telling me that they didn't
        get my special the other day and begged me to send them the link.

        I am NOT kidding, though I have to say I was quite surprised.
        Bows down humbly...
        Signature

        Not promoting right now

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  • Profile picture of the author Fabian Tan
    That's why its important to keep a balance between content and promotions.

    If you had to go for more content or more promos in that balance, I say go for more promos. Because the purpose of building that list is to make money by offering products.

    Even better - mix content with promos in the same email. Give the content, but promote hard too.

    Think about it - there are free newspapers and there are paid ones. The paid ones often make more money than the free ones. It's simple logic.

    Some people will give the excuse that you are promoting too much - the reality is all they want is to suck you dry of your free content and not have to pay you a cent for it.

    Other marketers who are saying you have to provide more content to make more money - well, how exactly do they know YOUR numbers? Or the numbers that supposed constant product pitchers are making? Chances are, they don't.

    This is like getting free driving lessons or flying lessons all the way through.

    Also, people end up not valuing the information and guess what? It reflects on their efforts and business.

    Fabian
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
      Originally Posted by Fabian Tan View Post

      That's why its important to keep a balance between content and promotions.

      If you had to go for more content or more promos in that balance, I say go for more promos. Because the purpose of building that list is to make money by offering products.

      Even better - mix content with promos in the same email. Give the content, but promote hard too.

      Think about it - there are free newspapers and there are paid ones. The paid ones often make more money than the free ones. It's simple logic.

      Some people will give the excuse that you are promoting too much - the reality is all they want is to suck you dry of your free content and not have to pay you a cent for it.

      Other marketers who are saying you have to provide more content to make more money - well, how exactly do they know YOUR numbers? Or the numbers that supposed constant product pitchers are making? Chances are, they don't.

      This is like getting free driving lessons or flying lessons all the way through.

      Also, people end up not valuing the information and guess what? It reflects on their efforts and business.

      Fabian
      Depends on if you are in this business to make money or to help people. I prefer to mix links with content, but I rarely hard sell my list because I know what it is like to receive those emails...I simply delete them and if they really get annoying I opt out.

      Personally, I am branding my business by putting my name on everything - I have much loftier goals than to be content with making money via lists for the rest of my life. Done properly, I can use my lists to make some money, but the end goal is to create a brand that one established will be promoted by my list. People like to be a part of something and watch it grow. If my list watches me create a successful brand and they get to be a part of it, they will be much more likely to hang around long term as well as keep that grassroots promotion alive. Too many people focus on the short term - we should be building business empires with our brands - not taking the easy way out.
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      • Profile picture of the author tomw
        Originally Posted by nhangen View Post

        Depends on if you are in this business to make money or to help people. I prefer to mix links with content, but I rarely hard sell my list because I know what it is like to receive those emails...I simply delete them and if they really get annoying I opt out.

        Personally, I am branding my business by putting my name on everything - I have much loftier goals than to be content with making money via lists for the rest of my life. Done properly, I can use my lists to make some money, but the end goal is to create a brand that one established will be promoted by my list. People like to be a part of something and watch it grow. If my list watches me create a successful brand and they get to be a part of it, they will be much more likely to hang around long term as well as keep that grassroots promotion alive. Too many people focus on the short term - we should be building business empires with our brands - not taking the easy way out.
        Almost ALL business is about helping people in one way or another. It's called business and not charity because those in business expect to be compensated for their efforts by that apparently ignoble stuff called money.

        Thomas
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        • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
          Originally Posted by tomw View Post

          Almost ALL business is about helping people in one way or another. It's called business and not charity because those in business expect to be compensated for their efforts by that apparently ignoble stuff called money.

          Thomas
          I disagree.

          Are you telling me the primary factor for you starting a business was to help other people? If it was, congratulations - you are an inspiration.

          If it wasn't, that is ok - that doesn't make you greedy.

          What makes you greedy however, is feeling you have to pull every dime you can out of people while you have them on your list. I think Steve's got it right, which is why he is one of the few lists I actually use, AND buy from.

          Making money is ok, but lets not kid ourselves and say we are doing this for other people. Yes I want to help people in the process of making money, but I don't see money as the holy grail. Relationships are worth much more.
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          • Profile picture of the author tomw
            Originally Posted by nhangen View Post

            I disagree.

            Are you telling me the primary factor for you starting a business was to help other people? If it was, congratulations - you are an inspiration.

            If it wasn't, that is ok - that doesn't make you greedy.

            What makes you greedy however, is feeling you have to pull every dime you can out of people while you have them on your list. I think Steve's got it right, which is why he is one of the few lists I actually use, AND buy from.

            Making money is ok, but lets not kid ourselves and say we are doing this for other people. Yes I want to help people in the process of making money, but I don't see money as the holy grail. Relationships are worth much more.
            *sigh*

            The reason for the existence of business is to provide.
            Provision of something that is either needed or wanted by people.
            Misguided morality or altruism has nothing to do with this simple logic.

            Thomas
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            • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
              Originally Posted by tomw View Post

              *sigh*

              The reason for the existence of business is to provide.
              Provision of something that is either needed or wanted by people.
              Misguided morality or altruism has nothing to do with this simple logic.

              Thomas
              Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.

              Businesses that provide value succeed, while those that don't do not. I guess that's as simple as it can get. Call it "misguided" if you like.
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              • Profile picture of the author tomw
                Originally Posted by nhangen View Post

                Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.

                Businesses that provide value succeed, while those that don't do not. I guess that's as simple as it can get. Call it "misguided" if you like.
                LOL! Stop moving the goalposts!

                When did "value" enter into your position - until now!

                And, if your are using it to further your original argument, you clearly do not understand what value represents!

                For example;

                You have X, I'd like to give Y for it. You agree because you want my Y. You are happy. I'm also happy because you accepted my offer for your X and I got what I wanted in return for something I was prepared to trade, my Y.

                We both got value.

                This process is the foundation of ALL businesses, ALL relationships and certainly ALL transactions.

                No ethics, no morals, no cuddly, touchy, feely, noble sentiments, just an agreement to and process of trade.

                Thomas
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by tomw View Post

                  LOL! Stop moving the goalposts!

                  When did "value" enter into your position - until now!

                  And, if your are using it to further your original argument, you clearly do not understand what value represents!

                  For example;

                  You have X, I'd like to give Y for it. You agree because you want my Y. You are happy. I'm also happy because you accepted my offer for your X and I got what I wanted in return for something I was prepared to trade, my Y.

                  We both got value.

                  This process is the foundation of ALL businesses, ALL relationships and certainly ALL transactions.

                  No ethics, no morals, no cuddly, touchy, feely, noble sentiments, just an agreement to and process of trade.

                  Thomas

                  Thomas, are hanging out with Paul Myers a lot? You two are so darn
                  logical that it's almost scary.
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                  • Profile picture of the author tomw
                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    Thomas, are hanging out with Paul Myers a lot? You two are so darn
                    logical that it's almost scary.
                    No, but he would be on my 10 marketers at a dinner party list and not just because we have a common interest in some of the weird and wonderful things made with barley and Speyside water

                    I think we both just love Marketing theory, practice and philosophy and have studied it...a lot!

                    Thomas
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                • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                  Originally Posted by tomw View Post

                  LOL! Stop moving the goalposts!

                  When did "value" enter into your position - until now!

                  And, if your are using it to further your original argument, you clearly do not understand what value represents!

                  For example;

                  You have X, I'd like to give Y for it. You agree because you want my Y. You are happy. I'm also happy because you accepted my offer for your X and I got what I wanted in return for something I was prepared to trade, my Y.

                  We both got value.

                  This process is the foundation of ALL businesses, ALL relationships and certainly ALL transactions.

                  No ethics, no morals, no cuddly, touchy, feely, noble sentiments, just an agreement to and process of trade.

                  Thomas
                  You brought it up, not me

                  I'm talking about abusing the hell out of your list and hardselling them vs developing a relationship with them.

                  I subscribe to a LOT of lists, and generally I will know within the first email if I will hang around. If someone is going to do nothing but hard sell in every email, then I will instantly opt out. If they provide value that develops their reputation (in my mind) and gives me a sense that they know what they are talking about, then I will go to the next step, which is to wait until they have something I want and then purchase it.

                  The IM crowd has a seedy reputation because of people that focus solely on money (see the hundreds of "launches" that have been spamming your inbox lately). You may be able to profit short term, but what sort of equity does that provide you?

                  I prefer to use a list to build a brand and let the brand make money, not the list. Maybe we just have different strategies. There is a reason why these guys have to keep spamming lists and creating new products all the time.

                  I never said I was in business to help people...maybe I alluded to it, but what I really meant was that my focus isn't solely on money. Cautioning someone because they don't hard spam their list often enough is laughable.
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  • Profile picture of the author GoGetta
    Wow, I never thought of doing something like that! One thing that does jump out in all of this though, is that money is in the list and any Internet Marketer should be byilding a list of some sort!

    GoGetta
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  • Profile picture of the author trafficwave
    2% is really pretty good! I think you saw the increase because of the basic, "If you don't like it, you can unsubscribe".

    Some folks are going to take that personally and do it "just to show you".

    But the other side of that coin is that probably isn't the kind of person you really want to be doing business with.

    From my perspective, you got rid of some dead weight.

    And the important thing is ... you are making sales.

    Now to handle that deliverability issue!
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
    Steven,

    This was a good move. You realize that you've made room
    for more buyers (and most remote AR services do actually
    charge for additional volume, so you've just economized
    your operation).

    The only thing I would say, based on the way I work it,
    is that I would do this right from the start...

    ...your most viewed email is the 1st one sent. I tell my
    subscribers right there and then what the deal is, and they
    know right there and then that at some point, should I do
    my job correctly and EARN THEIR TRUST AND RESPECT,
    that I may, just may, suggest products which I think would
    help them.

    Guess what? I get a 2% unsubscribe rate too...

    ...it's just that I know that at the end of each day of lead
    generation, exactly how many people are left on the list,
    because THAT is the true indication of who might buy from
    me in the future.

    And that sure does make it easier to "do your numbers" for
    the month.
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  • Profile picture of the author IMChick
    Of the 98% of subscribers who stayed, what is your conversion rate for the 12 days promotion? Higher than average makes sense here.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    Without any doubt in my mind. These people were tire kickers, only interested in sucking me dry for all the info that they could get and had no intention of ever buying a thing from me. So I say...good riddens to bad rubbish.
    I can't help but wonder how many on your list (buyers included) would unsubscribe if they really took the time to understand a seller who feels this way about them.

    [Added later] I have no desire to bother you Steven. I just couldn't believe what I was reading.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by John Rowe View Post

      I can't help but wonder how many on your list (buyers included) would unsubscribe if they really took the time to understand a seller who feels this way about them.
      Hey John, how are you? Haven't heard from you in a while.

      My friend, I'm in too good a mood to let even you bother me.

      Have yourself a very happy holiday my friend.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fabian Tan
    Here's the thing: there are some people who just want free content, they don't intend to spend money with you. And there are people who truly want more free content from you so they can make a decision whether to buy your products.

    There is a crucial difference there.

    Ever seen people queue up for free samples who don't intend to buy? Those are the people you don't want on board.

    The bottom line: are you getting more sales or more complaint emails? If the answer is very little sales and very little complaint emails, well, time to change the game plan.

    A few whiners can make you think you are doing things wrong. It's called the 'vocal minority'. And guess what? The whiners won't end up buying from you anyway. These are the guys with the 'entitlement mentality'.

    And these are the guys you don't want on your list anyway.

    Fabian
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