Do Academics Make Good Entrepreneurs?

by sal64
256 replies
Hey folks,

I have been offline for most of the year due to illness but it's good to be back.

Was having a recent discussion about mindset with a colleague. More specifically, clients / students who believe that you have to be a rocket scientist to make it on line.

Funny enough, I have found the the smarter you are, the longer it takes. In particular, people who are more academic.

Now this is a general observation so if you have a masters and kicking butt, don't get p1ssed at my opinion, ok?

I have found that it takes a unique attitude to make it as an entrepreneur. A sort of rebel / free spirit.

Maybe it's why a lot of IT people fail at IM?

Anyways, I'd really be interested in your views, where you've come from and what have you found your background to be a limiting factor?

So do academics make good entrepreneurs? And what do you think makes one?

Sal
#academics #entrepreneurs #good #make
  • Profile picture of the author joemayerich
    Academics are usually good robots, they are trained to complete and fulfill tasks that are laid out for them under some kind of guidelines. Entrepreneurs are a different breed. There will always be exceptions to the rule of course, but that is generally the case.
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    • Profile picture of the author That Guy
      Originally Posted by joemayerich View Post

      Academics are usually good robots, they are trained to complete and fulfill tasks that are laid out for them under some kind of guidelines. Entrepreneurs are a different breed. There will always be exceptions to the rule of course, but that is generally the case.
      I don't think you're giving us enough credit. Solving a good hard math/science problem takes a lot more than a "plug-into-formula" answer.
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        Originally Posted by That Guy View Post

        I don't think you're giving us enough credit. Solving a good hard math/science problem takes a lot more than a "plug-into-formula" answer.
        Agree, but do these skills translate into an entrepreneurial situation?
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

          Originally Posted by That Guy View Post

          I don't think you're giving us enough credit. Solving a good hard math/science problem takes a lot more than a "plug-into-formula" answer.

          Agree, but do these skills translate into an entrepreneurial situation?

          The easy answer is, "Sometimes, but not often."
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          • Profile picture of the author sal64
            Originally Posted by tpw View Post

            The easy answer is, "Sometimes, but not often."
            Have to agree, sadly.

            Even offline, my wife works for a nurse training corp.

            The owner is from a public healthcare system. Knows her shyte... truly brilliant.

            But totally clueless when it comes to running a business. Tries to run webinars etc but has got no idea and won't listen. All about her systems and in the process creates an ever growing beaurocracy.
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            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
              Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

              Have to agree, sadly.

              Even offline, my wife works for a nurse training corp.

              The owner is from a public healthcare system. Knows her shyte... truly brilliant.

              But totally clueless when it comes to running a business. Tries to run webinars etc but has got no idea and won't listen. All about her systems and in the process creates an ever growing beaurocracy.
              And exactly where would we be if all her type decided to quit and go online? Online isn't a damned world - it's just another style of having a job. You might work for yourself and call your own hours - but I'm seeing a lot of people that sit in chairs for whole days and half the night to get it all done (and a lot don't make that much for it to be real honest) and when all is said and done and they are being wheeled into the hospital after that massive coronary they let their bodies slide into -- isn't it nice that there's someone that didn't go work online and is there to help you survive?

              Jeez people - normalize. This is business, not a whole ball of wax life. This is supposed to be for people who love it. Not everyone does. So exactly how does that make them less intelligent, focused, successful if they are offline doing what they want? Doing what you want is the point of life - not "oh I have to go online because you can make money there."

              Sh*t. I'm getting offline tomorrow and going to go out to the mountains and dig up some turquoise to sell. Maybe pan a little gold. This kind of crap drives me nuts. I have better things to do than listen to a bunch of people prattle about how superior they are because they like to make their money online instead of offline. Maybe I'll hunt up one of my scientist pals and tell them what a loser they are for not going into sales.
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              • Profile picture of the author professorrosado
                Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                I have better things to do than listen to a bunch of people prattle about how superior they are because they like to make their money online instead of offline. Maybe I'll hunt up one of my scientist pals and tell them what a loser they are for not going into sales.
                This whole concept (with all due respect to the OP) sounds to me just like the mentality of NYC street thugs whose pride and joy is being able to make easy money selling weed and crack while the rest of society goes to work everyday!

                They're selling what a lot of folks want - that's why they succeed in sales - it takes no brains to sell anything (just ask Bubba and that Fuller brush retarded guy who was #1 Salesman for years). So the question is flawed and prejudicial. The only problem academics have in selling as well as the pack is in their lacking of the pack mentality which is the communication needed to translateralize the bulk of online and offline sales. But I know for a fact that the majority of the pack are not salesmen but consumers.

                Intellectuals find it difficult to sell (IM)crack even under the guise of a WSO! And I've been watching a few here on WF with their equally gratuitous reviews - OMG! Between this truth and the underlying politics so apparent to us academics (not so for others, apparently) the OP's question is so on point - not for its query, but for what it portends.
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                • Originally Posted by professorrosado View Post

                  They're selling what a lot of folks want - that's why they succeed in sales - it takes no brains to sell anything (just ask Bubba and that Fuller brush retarded guy who was #1 Salesman for years).
                  If there were a reward for Most Offensive Post of the Day, you've won it.

                  That "Fuller brush retarded guy" is Bill Porter, born with cerebral palsy. His brain works just fine. (Unlike...) He sold door-to-door for Watkins for many years until his health broke down. He was a highly successful salesman because he created relationships with his customers and persevered.

                  Bill Porter (salesman) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                  About the only thing you got right was his gender. The amount of ignorance on this thread is appalling.

                  fLufF
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            • Profile picture of the author yeahvairily
              Academics tend to collect data and analyze. SOmetimes entrepreneurs have a good gut feeling and move on it. The two groups are not mutually exclusive but tend to be moved by different drivers
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      • Profile picture of the author Miguelito203
        Originally Posted by That Guy View Post

        I don't think you're giving us enough credit. Solving a good hard math/science problem takes a lot more than a "plug-into-formula" answer.
        That's true. Those things, however, revolve around logic. Internet marketing or being an entrepreneur isn't that cut and dry. Lots of people can grasp the ideas behind various methods of internet marketing, but most people give up once they've done everything by the book and don't see success.

        To be an entrepreneur, you have to be kind of nuts. That being said, I had a number of professors who were like that. I guess it has more to do with personality and determination to succeed than anything else.

        Joey
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Kennedy
      Originally Posted by joemayerich View Post

      Academics are usually good robots, they are trained to complete and fulfill tasks that are laid out for them under some kind of guidelines. Entrepreneurs are a different breed. There will always be exceptions to the rule of course, but that is generally the case.
      Wow. This is completely and utterly incorrect on every level. Now before I dismantle this sham of post I am going to make one assumption, an "academic" is a person who has completed a Ph.D and is currently employed at a university undertaking research and some teaching responsibilities. Simply having a Bachelor or Masters degree does NOT make you an academic.

      As an academic undertaking research, you are most certainly NOT just fulfilling tasks that are laid out before you. You find problems or events which are happening in the real world and try to deduce why they are occurring, how they are occurring and how the problems/events can be replicated and solved. For example, if you are a Professor of Economics, the Dean of your school does not come up to you with a check list and say "Here is a problem that the world is facing, here are all your data sets, here is all the current theory on the subject, here is how to run your statistical tests, here is how to structure your own theory and interpret your results, here is how to write your article and here is how to gain credibility within the economic community".

      Any academic worth the doctorate they received thinks similar to an entrepreneur. What does an entrepreneur do? They try to find solutions to things which are happening in their market of choice and attempt to profit off the solutions they come up with. What does an academic do? They try to find solutions to things which are happening in their field of interest and attempt to gain credibility with the research they come up with.

      Now I would highly suggest you take a minute or two before posting such nonsense again as you clearly have absolutely zero knowledge on the subject at hand.

      Now as for my opinion, I do not believe academics make good entrepreneurs because they have no desire to become one. If they did, they wouldn't be an academic. They would instead go into the private sector.
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    • Profile picture of the author bettersocial
      Originally Posted by joemayerich View Post

      Academics are usually good robots, they are trained to complete and fulfill tasks that are laid out for them under some kind of guidelines. Entrepreneurs are a different breed. There will always be exceptions to the rule of course, but that is generally the case.
      You do realize that the very science of robotics itself was created by academicians - professors and scientists in University labs?

      I can't believe the disdain so many people have for academicians and academics in general. "Those who can't do, teach" - I can definitely say that whoever coined this BS phrase must not have been very highly educated.

      Pretty much all of our inventions and discoveries can be traced back to some 'academician' tinkering in a laboratory.

      Heck, Einstein used to teach. Almost every Nobel prize winner is associated with some University. They're all academicians. And they are pushing the boundaries of human invention.

      ---


      As to the original question: do you know that one of the co-founders of YouTube went back to Stanford to complete a PhD and wants to eventually teach there?

      And that Stanford has some billionaire professors? And that Sergey Brin and Larry Page might have ended up as professors (after all, they were PhD students and teaching is the next platform after a PhD. In all probability, they were taking classes as TAs).

      Strong academics means strong intellect. Most tech businesses have been founded by people with a strong background in academics, typically with engineering degrees. Sure, Zuckerberg, Jobs and Gates are all drop outs, but they are also incredibly gifted and academically inclined individuals. Gates, according to one popular anecdote, reads books even while he drives (guess who hasn't heard of audio books!). Moreover, Zuckerberg, Jobs, and Gates are exceptions, not the rule.

      Unless you are incredibly gifted, I would never tell anyone to skip academics in favor of entrepreneurship. A strong educational background does wonders, not just for your technical and intellectual skills, but also in instilling the qualities of hard work, research, and planning.
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    • Profile picture of the author offline85
      Originally Posted by joemayerich View Post

      Academics are usually good robots, they are trained to complete and fulfill tasks that are laid out for them under some kind of guidelines. Entrepreneurs are a different breed. There will always be exceptions to the rule of course, but that is generally the case.
      I think anyone can do anything they put their mind and heart behind (other than learning to fly with their arms off a large building - DO NOT TRY!)
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      • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
        Originally Posted by offline85 View Post

        I think anyone can do anything they put their mind and heart behind (other than learning to fly with their arms off a large building - DO NOT TRY!)
        You really could've had the decency to tell that to Franz Reichelt, the man who discovered to his great cost that tailors don't make good aviators, and who most decidedly didn't go down "dressed in his best".

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    • Profile picture of the author BlueCollar
      Originally Posted by joemayerich View Post

      Academics are usually good robots, they are trained to complete and fulfill tasks that are laid out for them under some kind of guidelines. Entrepreneurs are a different breed. There will always be exceptions to the rule of course, but that is generally the case.
      My sentiments exactly! Good post.
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    • Profile picture of the author Manuelcrc
      Originally Posted by joemayerich View Post

      Academics are usually good robots, they are trained to complete and fulfill tasks that are laid out for them under some kind of guidelines. Entrepreneurs are a different breed. There will always be exceptions to the rule of course, but that is generally the case.

      Seconded here! Looks like we have pretty much the same view....barring the exceptions of course.
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  • Profile picture of the author HarrisonJ
    In my experience Academics tend to be more careful, and slow. They are less likely to see the big picture, and instead focus on details that don't really matter when it comes to making money.

    A good entrepreneur is willing to keep trying new things until they succeed, and not get stuck on one thing.

    That's why most people fail, they get stuck doing one thing that has very little chance of working, and before long they run out of time.
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  • Profile picture of the author vampiro
    Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

    So do academics make good entrepreneurs? And what do you think makes one?

    Sal
    Education doesn't tell us how to become good entrepreneurs. They only teach theories. They leave the practical applications to the students. This will serve as the foundation for business.

    In real world, only individuals who have critical thinking and high self-esteem plus confidence are the best entrepreneurs. Experienced is often the best teacher.

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  • Profile picture of the author tpw



    Now that I have shown you my WIDE PAINT BRUSH, I can answer your question... :p



    You know what they say...
    Those who can do, do...

    Those who cannot do, teach...



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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      You know what they say...
      Those who can do, do...

      Those who cannot do, teach...
      That explains 90% of the 'create a WSO' craze we've been seeing...

      ~Bill
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

        That explains 90% of the 'create a WSO' craze we've been seeing...

        ~Bill
        Probably has more to do with the fact that WSO's are the nearest things to instant cash for many marketers.

        Mind you, I've seen a ton of one-hit-wonders who cannot even make a fist of WSO's.

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    • Profile picture of the author Tracey_Meagher
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      You know what they say...
      Those who can do, do...

      Those who cannot do, teach...
      That's a scary thought when you think of all the gurus hustling their "teach you to make bazillion dollars in a minute" methods!

      I gave up on my PhD in my final year to work online. I lectured a little and just got tired of it and wanted something new. The academic mindset is very different from the entrepreneurial mindset, far more narrow and specialized. Academics are less likely to take risks I think, and more likely to want to analyze and postulate. It's not that these the skills aren't useful to entrepreneurs but being able to develop a risk taking mindset is not natural to a lot of academics. It took me years to get close to this! Most academics tend not to be visionaries beyond their field, which is something you need to be if you are to succeed as an entrepreneur. But that is not to say they can't be driven and ambitious. I've witnessed all kinds of bitching behind the scenes for positions, awards and so on. I'm sure for many that ambition and drive transfers readily enough to the business world .. if the person has the desire. It's just most academics don't, but then again how many successful entrepreneurs want to be academics?

      Bye the way, welcome back Sal
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Tracey_Meagher View Post

        I've witnessed all kinds of bitching behind the scenes for positions, awards and so on.

        This happens in the corporate world too...

        "Big fish in a little pond" syndrome = The only way for the big fish to grow is to eat the little fish and the other fish their own size.

        They also chase the big fish around, kissing their asses, believing that if they have their heads up the big fish's ass, they will go wherever the big fish goes, and so long as they are in tow, they are far from the mouth of the bigger fish.
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    • Profile picture of the author Terry Coombes
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post


      You know what they say...
      Those who can do, do...

      Those who cannot do, teach...
      They may well say that, but where's their evidence? What research have they done to back it up? Has their research been the subject of peer review? Where has it been published? Have they presented papers on this at conferences?

      And do they make good entrepreneurs?

      Probably not,

      I Think.

      Terry
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Terry Coombes View Post

        They may well say that, but where's their evidence? What research have they done to back it up? Has their research been the subject of peer review? Where has it been published? Have they presented papers on this at conferences?

        And do they make good entrepreneurs?

        Damn forum only allows us 25 Thanks buttons per day, and I am out right now...

        I was laughing my ass off when I read your response...

        Thank you for making my day!!!
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    • Profile picture of the author azmanar
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post




      Now that I have shown you my WIDE PAINT BRUSH, I can answer your question... :p



      You know what they say...
      Those who can do, do...

      Those who cannot do, teach...
      lol......... roflmao.


      A short story of how an academic transformed his LOVE TO TEACH into a major break-through. After 25 years teaching in various elementary schools, he now runs a literacy program and own several properties to run his programs.

      This little guy ( 5ft tall ), received several awards from the government for creating an innovative teaching technique that helps slow and illiterate children ( upto the age of 17 ).

      His programs include:
      1. Teaching illiterate children at summer camp style facilities.
      2. Teaching indigenous children in far-flung villages in the forest.
      3. Teaching teachers on how to teach illiterate children
      4. Working with the Government to implement his program in 2,000 schools.

      Imagine the smiles of parents who saw their children took up the stage and started reading newspapers over the mic. Before, the kids can't even read a sentence from a short story. The parents were in tears of joy.

      Even now he is a teacher, pure and simple, yet an entrepreneur that helped thousands of children, parents and other teachers. What makes him different is creativity, innovation and sincerity.

      And I'm proud to be involved in his program by converting his large amount of PowerPoint teaching materials into interactive multimedia-rich software. That was in 2004.

      Hey, even if teachers only teach, we all got the fundamentals from them that made us what we are today as doers.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Everything has its limit - iron ore cannot be educated into gold.
      - Mark Twain
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      Originally Posted by tpw View Post




      Now that I have shown you my WIDE PAINT BRUSH, I can answer your question... :p



      You know what they say...
      Those who can do, do...

      Those who cannot do, teach...


      Those who can't learn invariably belittle the teacher.

      I was being tongue in cheek on my first post...

      And as expected, many people in this thread are using that wide paint brush that I introduced to the thread. :rolleyes:

      I am not talking about you Ken... I am talking about about every third person to contribute to this thread. LOL
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      You know what they say...
      Those who can do, do...

      Those who cannot do, teach...

      So by that logic, since you teach people how to write content, that must mean you can't write to save yourself :p

      -Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

    Hey folks,



    I have found that it takes a unique attitude to make it as an entrepreneur. A sort of rebel / free spirit.


    Sal
    You apparently never met my U of M crowd. You might have seen us sitting on the lawns of the state capitol eating brownies, though.

    Many academics know what their interests are - at least they did when I went to school. They know a lot about what direction they want to go in. When they get online, they know what fields they want to build businesses in and aren't as likely to be drawn into the "anything for a buck" mentality.

    Have you checked out my website? It's not the biggest earning site on the net. Right now it's ratings on all but a few pages are dropping, too because I haven't had time to work on it - a few days of work though at it goes back up to page one for a lot of keywords - and it's still on page one for a lot of searches. It's a great and informative site. I didn't build it with the IM attitude that I just want something that would bring in the bucks. I built it because it's my first love off-line, where I make more at it than online periodically (seasonally, actually). It took a long time to build it up and it got chewed to crap - and I built it up again. Because I love it and it keeps me mentally stimulated and connected with others in my field and scientists, who I LOVE being able to call and chat with when I have questions - get the real dirt on stuff.

    What do academics have that other's don't? Focus. Direction.

    Whoever said we don't see the big picture was wrong. We see the big picture just fine - and are able to connect a few extra dots to enhance it. We're just less likely to dive into the net foaming at the mouth for quick money. Most of us aren't really sales people, the ones that are do pretty well. I see people love to ditch those who got educations - but it's only the people without one that have a problem with people who have one.

    Funny -- I've seen a LOT of major names running around that actually are academics. In fact a lot of the "gurus" are educated. They are the people a lot of you first learned from. Someone had to have the knowledge to teach to everyone else. Did you think it was the people that started with forum questions like "how do i make moneys online" or "help me pick out a business" types that were the ones that got everyone else cranking?

    I think if everyone who tries to justify the fact that educated people aren't as good as those who aren't went to school for a semester or two - not to make money but just to get some critical thinking skills and study something that cranks them like nothing else that they would find a whole world there that is just freaking all out awesomeness. There is more to life that being able to pull bucks off the net. There really is. If you don't believe it - you should come gem hunting with me sometime. Maybe you'd understand a few points that you seem to be missing.

    If all you can say at the end of the day is that you make money online....well.......I'm sorry for you. Sounds limited and very dull to me.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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    • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      You apparently never met my U of M crowd. You might have seen us sitting on the lawns of the state capitol eating brownies, though.

      Many academics know what their interests are - at least they did when I went to school. They know a lot about what direction they want to go in. When they get online, they know what fields they want to build businesses in and aren't as likely to be drawn into the "anything for a buck" mentality.

      Have you checked out my website? It's not the biggest earning site on the net. Right now it's ratings on all but a few pages are dropping, too because I haven't had time to work on it - a few days of work though at it goes back up to page one for a lot of keywords - and it's still on page one for a lot of searches. It's a great and informative site. I didn't build it with the IM attitude that I just want something that would bring in the bucks. I built it because it's my first love off-line, where I make more at it than online periodically (seasonally, actually). It took a long time to build it up and it got chewed to crap - and I built it up again. Because I love it and it keeps me mentally stimulated and connected with others in my field and scientists, who I LOVE being able to call and chat with when I have questions - get the real dirt on stuff.

      What do academics have that other's don't? Focus. Direction.

      Whoever said we don't see the big picture was wrong. We see the big picture just fine - and are able to connect a few extra dots to enhance it. We're just less likely to dive into the net foaming at the mouth for quick money. Most of us aren't really sales people, the ones that are do pretty well. I see people love to ditch those who got educations - but it's only the people without one that have a problem with people who have one.

      Funny -- I've seen a LOT of major names running around that actually are academics. In fact a lot of the "gurus" are educated. They are the people a lot of you first learned from. Someone had to have the knowledge to teach to everyone else. Did you think it was the people that started with forum questions like "how do i make moneys online" or "help me pick out a business" types that were the ones that got everyone else cranking?

      I think if everyone who tries to justify the fact that educated people aren't as good as those who aren't went to school for a semester or two - not to make money but just to get some critical thinking skills and study something that cranks them like nothing else that they would find a whole world there that is just freaking all out awesomeness. There is more to life that being able to pull bucks off the net. There really is. If you don't believe it - you should come gem hunting with me sometime. Maybe you'd understand a few points that you seem to be missing.

      If all you can say at the end of the day is that you make money online....well.......I'm sorry for you. Sounds limited and very dull to me.



      I am not seeing the example that an academic is a good entreprneur.
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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
        I guess academics like Dr Seuss, Einstein and Stephen Hawking must have become rich by accident


        Martin
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        • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
          Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

          I guess academics like Dr Seuss, Einstein and Stephen Hawking must have become rich by accident


          Martin
          Being rich doesn't mean you are an entrepreneur.
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          • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
            Given the thread title, the only answer that makes sense to me is: "it depends".

            But it's difficult to address the question, because, as Alexa and others have pointed out, the responses in this thread indicate that many people are taking the words "academic" to mean educated and "entrepreneur" to mean business person.

            The characteristics that define an entrepreneur are many and varied, but a large element is to do with one's attitude to risk. Another major contributor is the culture in which one has been raised. In either instance, one's academic inclination is probably not a factor.

            Academics and/or well-educated people often run successful businesses; just as many businesses started by entrepreneurs fail miserably.

            However, I doubt that you'll find many successful entrepreneurs who weren't also committed (often to the point of obsession) to continuous self-education.


            Frank
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            • Profile picture of the author sal64
              wow, there are some truly heavy-**** replies and opinions given. I could quote and reply to most, but I won't.

              @heysal: WT? I think you are way off track from my OP. All power to you,, but you miss my point totally. It's a simple question to be honest.

              As I see it, certain people have certain traits. Entrepreneurs in the pure sense have certain characteristics.

              Yes, many academics run successful businesses, but this alone doesn't make you an entrepreneur. Nor does being self employed to be honest. There is a massive gap between peddling your services / skills and being an entrepreneur.

              So let's get some perspective everyone. This isn't about degrading academics.

              drmani: the voice of reason as always.

              @IMwinner: nail-hammer-head

              @professorrosado: I have no idea what you are on about and what relevance it has to my question - with all due respect. However, you point about sales is relevant and one of those traits I refer to.

              Also, this isn't about education levels, because to be a successful E, you have to keep learning.

              My OP was more in reference to Academics making the transition to entrepreneurship... or even going into business.

              Maybe it's mindset. Maybe it's conservatism. Maybe it's paralysis by analysis. That's why I posed the question.

              Finally, the argument that many entrepreneurs fail doesn't wash with me... because essentially, that's what it's all about. I am yet to meet one that's rolled the dice and never got it wrong.
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
          There was an interesting study done a few years ago on the UK rich list (the reported top 1000 wealthiest UK based business people). It showed 40% had qualifications and 60% didn't that had gone on to make 9 figure's.
          So back to the question I guess yes sometimes is the answer.


          Rich
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        • Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

          I guess academics like Dr Seuss, Einstein and Stephen Hawking must have become rich by accident
          Dr Seuss (Theodor Geisel) had a bachelor's degree from Dartmouth but no Ph.D. Dr Seuss was a nom de plume.

          Albert Einstein was at Princeton for some twenty years until his death. I'm sure he was comfortable there but there's no reason to believe he was wealthy.

          Stephen Hawking? Wealth seems beside the point.

          fLufF
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    • Profile picture of the author WriterWahm
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      What do academics have that other's don't? Focus. Direction.
      And the drive to go through several grilling years without quitting. We do not quit.
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  • Profile picture of the author activetrader
    My educational background is in veterinary medicine and IT.

    I started my first business at the age of 17 to support myself through college.

    After graduation I worked as a vet and went to get my IT training at the same time.

    After I got my IT and networking certificates I stayed at home with my children while day trading stocks online.

    After leaving my ex I pulled money out of the stock market because I needed more stability.

    I joined a start-up where I was employed for several months until it went bankrupt.

    I didn't want to go back to work for someone so I started doing IM. Been doing it since 2007.
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    Me

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  • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
    I have a BA, MPhil and PhD and a couple of professional qualifications. Almost everyone I have met on the way has some kind of business on the side. This is either to help pay their way whilst studying or once they have secured a job in academia.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Kierkegaard View Post

      I have a BA, MPhil and PhD and a couple of professional qualifications. Almost everyone I have met on the way has some kind of business on the side. This is either to help pay their way whilst studying or once they have secured a job in academia.

      Or pay off the high cost of tuition...
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      • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Or pay off the high cost of tuition...
        Tell me about it!
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  • Profile picture of the author theemperor
    Another thing to consider is academics are reasonable well paid and often get to do a job they like or even love. The 'hate my job' drive is less in us than it would be in most people I guess, so it is more tempting to give up in IM compared to someone who absolutely must succeed or be poor and/or do a boring job.
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    • Profile picture of the author drmani
      Depends.

      Would you classify Sergei Brin and Larry Page as 'academics'? Or 'entrepreneurs'?



      All success
      Dr.Mani
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      • Originally Posted by drmani View Post

        Would you classify Sergei Brin and Larry Page as 'academics'? Or 'entrepreneurs'?
        Academics.

        History is clear on this point. Page and Brin were spectactularly lousy entrepreneurs -- and may still be. They repeatedly tried to sell Google without success because they wanted to return to academia.

        Without two things (1. Eric Schmidt and 2. huge infusions of venture capital) you never would have heard of them and there would be more vacant office space in Mountain View today.

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      • Profile picture of the author Rukshan
        Originally Posted by drmani View Post

        Depends.

        Would you classify Sergei Brin and Larry Page as 'academics'? Or 'entrepreneurs'?



        All success
        Dr.Mani
        I like to replace "Sergei Brin and Larry Page" with your name
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

    Anyways, I'd really be interested in your views
    I suspect it's pretty difficult to discuss here, constructively and sensibly, for two main reasons:-

    (i) As we can already see in many of the replies above, people don't agree about what an "academic" is (though I think we probably all more or less agree about what an "entrepreneur" is);

    (ii) As we see so regularly in so many other threads in which "IM or school" is discussed, in varying guises, there's often quite a wide - albeit usually well concealed - gulf in underlying attitude toward education, qualifications and academia between those who haven't been to college/university and those who have.

    Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

    where you've come from
    I have a first-class honours degree in history/philosophy/sociology of science and was supposed to start my very part-time PhD research in September of last year, and to teach a little class of first-year students once a week too, but I wasn't well enough and have postponed it all, in favour of things I can do purely from home. One day I'll start and eventually complete it (the research - probably not the teaching) but probably barely "use" it apart from maybe publishing some stuff in not-very-academic formats, because my own specialist subject happens to be of considerable and increasing popular interest and relevance: you can decide for yourself whether that'll make me an "academic". As I said, people won't agree about this, but having been offered a teaching position in a university, albeit a very junior, assistant and part-time one, makes me close enough - in my own estimation - to being an academic to be willing to try to answer from "that perspective", anyway.

    Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

    and what have you found your background to be a limiting factor?
    Nothing in my background has been a limiting factor. The intellectual rigour of an academic training has been hugely beneficial when it comes to "seeing through the crap". I hope that doesn't come across as too arrogant and opinionated (), but I think we can all agree that in internet marketing, there's rather a lot of that to see through.

    I agree with HeySal's observations in post #12 above.

    And much though it would suit me to claim otherwise, I happen to think Sergey Brin and Larry Page were probably never academics at all (but I don't understand enough about their subject(s) to rely on myself to be certain about that).

    Yes - I think academics make good entrepreneurs.
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      • Profile picture of the author drmani
        Originally Posted by tpwilliams View Post

        Academics and entrepreneurs are two separate things. So, the two are not interwoven because they reason differently.
        My best friend (almost a brother) is Professor Emeritus at MIT
        (Massachusetts Institute of Technology), has TWO Ph.D.s (and is
        planning to do a 3rd!!!) - and his start up software company,
        launched in or around 1984, today has a turnover of over $75M
        and has designed the supply chain software that fuels drug
        delivery processes of the Govt. healthcare system in several
        Indian States.

        To claim that 'academia' and 'entrepreneuralism' are mutually
        exclusive is frankly misguided.

        Both are separate skills/talents - some have one, few have both
        ... and many have neither!

        All success
        Dr.Mani
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        • Profile picture of the author cmccale
          [QUOTE=drmani;4541186]My best friend (almost a brother) is Professor Emeritus at MIT
          (Massachusetts Institute of Technology), has TWO Ph.D.s (and is
          planning to do a 3rd!!!) - and his start up software company,
          launched in or around 1984, today has a turnover of over $75M
          and has designed the supply chain software that fuels drug
          delivery processes of the Govt. healthcare system in several
          Indian States.

          To claim that 'academia' and 'entrepreneuralism' are mutually
          exclusive is frankly misguided.

          Both are separate skills/talents - some have one, few have both
          ... and many have neither!


          Way to go Dr Mani!

          Perhaps some folks are also grossly generalizing their experiences. There are all kinds of "professors" or "academics" at university. Are English professors even likely to THINK about entrepreneurship? No.

          However - MOST universities cannot afford to pay BUSINESS FACULTY what they're truly worth: they know it and the faculty knows it. So there is often an "unspoken" agreement that as long as the faculty member's outside business activities create no conflict of interest or prevent the faculty member from doing a good job.... Many will tolerate their business faculty pursuing outside, entrepreneurial interests.

          For example: PhDs in accounting are a RARITY. So many DO have outside businesses. Many Business Law professors (lawyers) may not actively practice but they may still do some legal work.

          Marketing Profs do this as well: especially consulting. There is a university professor making a KILLING doing market research for all the Fortune 500 firms on their target markets and whether buying Nascar advertising, sponsorships, etc is a good investment for them. No university sponsors his research; it's all him.

          To say that "those who can, do; those who can't teach" diminishes the value of both. Good teachers/professors CAN DO BOTH.

          And perhaps that is the real point of this conversation/thread: when you have a good student who applies him or herself, actively manages and owns his or her educational experience, and squeezes every drop of value out of the experience - then OF COURSE university is a great investment.

          If not - then save the tuition money.

          The same is true with profesors: some are amazing practitioners who got bit by the teaching bug - and found a new passion in life. To say that they can't be both a great business person /entrepreneur is ludicrous.

          But further - there is VALUE in having people who do RESEARCH. Just because they're not entrepreneurs doesn't mean that what they do isn't valuable.

          Some of the best teachers I have ever had were the ones who could do both: teach AND practice. It's the student's responsibiity to fnd schools that value this characteristic in their faculty (and yes - there are plenty of universities who DO value practical application and hands on learning with professors can do both).

          cm
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      • Profile picture of the author Lorraina
        Originally Posted by tpwilliams View Post

        Academics and entrepreneurs are two separate things. So, the two are not interwoven because they reason differently.
        Not sure that is true...we have had many entrepreneurs who are also academics already comment here on this thread...so the two areas must be able to be interwoven...
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    • Profile picture of the author IMWinner
      The school didn't teach us how to make money; they just teach us theories that will help us how to work to earn money. They input to our minds that you can never have a good future when you don't have the piece of paper called "DIPLOMA". In short those who have graduated and earn degrees like Master's or PhD have a brighter future ahead, especially when they graduated with FLYING COLOR'S. The tendency of this people, works every day in office waiting for the month to end then they receive their monthly salary. For this matter they become a SALARY SLAVE people.
      But in ENTREPRENEUR, it teaches you how to make money and by using money it teach you how make more money. A good entrepreneur might good academically, but academics don't produce a good entrepreneur. For a mindset of a good entrepreneur moulded by time and life experiences.
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    • Profile picture of the author magnates
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      I suspect it's pretty difficult to discuss here, constructively and sensibly, for two main reasons:-

      (i) As we can already see in many of the replies above, people don't agree about what an "academic" is (though I think we probably all more or less agree about what an "entrepreneur" is);

      (ii) As we see so regularly in so many other threads in which "IM or school" is discussed, in varying guises, there's often quite a wide - albeit usually well concealed - gulf in underlying attitude toward education, qualifications and academia between those who haven't been to college/university and those who have.



      I have a first-class honours degree in history/philosophy/sociology of science and was supposed to start my very part-time PhD research in September of last year, and to teach a little class of first-year students once a week too, but I wasn't well enough and have postponed it all, in favour of things I can do purely from home. One day I'll start and eventually complete it (the research - probably not the teaching) but probably barely "use" it apart from maybe publishing some stuff in not-very-academic formats, because my own specialist subject happens to be of considerable and increasing popular interest and relevance: you can decide for yourself whether that'll make me an "academic". As I said, people won't agree about this, but having been offered a teaching position in a university, albeit a very junior, assistant and part-time one, makes me close enough - in my own estimation - to being an academic to be willing to try to answer from "that perspective", anyway.



      Nothing in my background has been a limiting factor. The intellectual rigour of an academic training has been hugely beneficial when it comes to "seeing through the crap". I hope that doesn't come across as too arrogant and opinionated (), but I think we can all agree that in internet marketing, there's rather a lot of that to see through.

      I agree with HeySal's observations in post #12 above.

      And much though it would suit me to claim otherwise, I happen to think Sergey Brin and Larry Page were probably never academics at all (but I don't understand enough about their subject(s) to rely on myself to be certain about that).

      Yes - I think academics make good entrepreneurs.
      I completely disagree . I don't think it is a either -or case . I think it is what is inside of you that counts . Some people have it within to be entrepreeneurs and even after years of scholing and academics that abandon everything to chance their dream

      You can be taught till you are blue in your face but some people are just prone to see beyound the current situation in their life . Some people are entrepreneurs within them and no amount of programming and employee mentality will stop them from achieving their dreams

      ~Femi
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by magnates View Post

        I completely disagree . I don't think it is a either -or case .
        Neither do I, Femi.

        I actually agree with everything you said.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Daniels
    I dont see how it could hurt but there are to many true stories of people with only a high school diploma making millions. So i think it could go either way. (toss up?, depends more on the person's ability and drive etc., IMHO)
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Kennedy
      Originally Posted by Michael Daniels View Post

      I dont see how it could hurt but there are to many true stories of people with only a high school diploma making millions. So i think it could go either way. (toss up?, depends more on the person's ability and drive etc., IMHO)
      Your lifetime earnings and level of education are statistically correlated. So the more education one has, the more, on average, one will earn over their lifetime when compared to those who have a lesser degree of education.

      There are always going to be outliers but this isn't the question of the OP.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Scott Kennedy View Post

        Your lifetime earnings and level of education are statistically correlated.
        This. Exactly. It's all too easy for people to adduce "counter-examples" like Bill Gates (himself very strongly in favour of formal, academic education, interestingly, and even using some of his enormous wealth to endorse and promote it), but the reality is that they're a prominent but unrepresentative minority.

        And some of them, like Gates himself, were people who had the educational and academic qualifications needed to get into wherever it was he went to school (was it Harvard?) before dropping out. Just an "inconvenient little fact" which so many of the people who like to point out that Bill Gates wasn't a college graduate often seem, somehow, strangely, to overlook. :rolleyes:

        But being a college/university graduate, of course, doesn't make someone an "academic".
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      • Originally Posted by Scott Kennedy View Post

        Your lifetime earnings and level of education are statistically correlated.
        Oh PLEASE don't tell me you actually believe this?!?! We don't live in the 50s anymore!
        • Now a days, your average plumber gets a better annual income than your average accountant.
        • Your average swimming pool builder gets a better annual income than your average IT programmer.
        • Your average Air Conditioner technician gets a better annual income than your average math teacher.
        • Do I need to go on?
        It's been decades since education and income are not directly correlated anymore!
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          Oh snap!

          Ain't that the truth.

          If I had my time again I would have taken up a trade.


          Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

          Oh PLEASE don't tell me you actually believe this?!?! We don't live in the 50s anymore!
          • Now a days, your average plumber gets a better annual income than your average accountant.
          • Your average swimming pool builder gets a better annual income than your average IT programmer.
          • Your average Air Conditioner technician gets a better annual income than your average math teacher.
          • Do I need to go on?
          It's been decades since education and income are not directly correlated anymore!
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        • Profile picture of the author Scott Kennedy
          Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

          Oh PLEASE don't tell me you actually believe this?!?! We don't live in the 50s anymore!
          • Now a days, your average plumber gets a better annual income than your average accountant.
          • Your average swimming pool builder gets a better annual income than your average IT programmer.
          • Your average Air Conditioner technician gets a better annual income than your average math teacher.
          • Do I need to go on?
          It's been decades since education and income are not directly correlated anymore!
          A 2011 report;
          Lifetime Earnings Soar with Education – How a Higher Education Leads to Higher Lifetime Earnings

          2002 report;
          http://www.nyu.edu/classes/jepsen/censusJul02.pdf

          2008 Journal article;
          Mind the gap? Estimating the effects of postponing higher education

          2011 Working paper;
          Life-Cycle Bias and the Returns to Schooling in Current and Lifetime Earnings by Manudeep Bhuller, Magne Mogstad, Kjell Salvanes :: SSRN

          2007 Report; Pay particular attention to page 7;
          https://www.ofy.org/uploaded/library...al_Jan2007.pdf

          I am able to provide additional peer reviewed journal studies if you wish. What you perceive to be correct and what the facts say are correct are two different things. So in short, you're wrong.

          If you have any data or peer reviewed evidence (not anecdotal as in "my friend Bob has a cousin who makes $1m per year as a fridge mechanic") then I would be very interested in seeing it. Once again we are talking about averages and not outliers.

          Originally Posted by Zanen22 View Post

          People in academics are trained to be told what to do and how to do it. They are trained to spend the first 22ish years of their life in school and then right when they graduate college, they expect to get a job.
          Companies want someone they can fit in a single position.

          Most people who graduate college don't graduate college to then start their own business, they graduate to get a job within a company.

          They become successful entrepreneurs when they see an idea that has 95% success rate. It's rare to have those opportunities right in front of your face.

          People who dropout or don't go to college know that they need to fight to survive. It seems they are willing to fail more in order to succeed.


          Also, the entrepreneur mindset isn't a genetic disposition. It's not giving to you at birth. It is a skill developed based on your experiences in life and how you're brought up. It's a drive to achieve a dream.

          Don't say you have it or you don't. You have it or you haven't developed the mindset, the skill, the desire to be an entrepreneur...
          Once again someone who has merely completed an undergraduate degree is not considered an academic.
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        • Profile picture of the author J Bold
          Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

          Oh PLEASE don't tell me you actually believe this?!?! We don't live in the 50s anymore!
          • Now a days, your average plumber gets a better annual income than your average accountant.
          • Your average swimming pool builder gets a better annual income than your average IT programmer.
          • Your average Air Conditioner technician gets a better annual income than your average math teacher.
          • Do I need to go on?
          It's been decades since education and income are not directly correlated anymore!
          I just wonder if you have any statistics or sources to back up these claims?

          I'm not saying you're wrong, you just say it with such conviction I'd like to hear where from where you get these stats.

          It's true a lot of people, like plumbers, can make good money with their business, because I know a few of them. then I know those plumbers who work hard and do a good job but don't make much more than $30K a year.

          Interested to hear your sources or stats that back up your statements.
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  • Profile picture of the author Crystal_Jobs
    Let me say this the way I see it.

    Academics are trained to follow the most predictable route, and avoid whatever is unpredictable. Unfortunately, to be an entrepreneur, you have to follow your guts - not logic or theory.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Crystal_Jobs View Post

      Let me say this the way I see it.

      Academics are trained to follow the most predictable route
      Really? I see it from exactly the opposite perspective!

      Academics are specifically trained not to follow the most predictable route, but to question, examine, evaluate, analyze and discuss alternatives: whether in the sciences, the arts or the social sciences, that's a substantial part of what "academia" is.
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      • Profile picture of the author cmccale
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Really? I see it from exactly the opposite perspective!

        Academics are specifically trained not to follow the most predictable route, but to question, examine, evaluate, analyze and discuss alternatives: whether in the sciences, the arts or the social sciences, that's a substantial part of what "academia" is.

        Hallelujiah.

        There are different types of academics: teaching professors and research professors. They are very different creatures, with different interests and career paths.

        Research academics are like detectives: they're on the hunt, conducting research, gathering and analyzing data. They are CREATING KNOWLEDGE - new information or facts.

        So for example: do we know - statistically supported evidence - that students who were taught through hands on learning activities actually learn the course content better? Ok - sure, maybe "Common Sense" might say OF COURSE! but the researcher doesn't assume. They look for evidence.

        (BTW: the answer to the question above is Sorta - they learn the content "better" if you mean by "better" that they learn material holistically - that they can not only understand the content but actually apply it, do it, and even critically evaluate their activities after the fact.)

        But there is another career path for professors: teaching. Professors who are predominently focused on teaching are not as valued by research universities because research universities get grants because of the research they do. Professors in some cases are expected to go out and get their own grants to help defray their overhead. Teaching profs are about the classroom experience - and the good ones are worth their weight in gold.

        There's always bad people in every profession: professors who should have retired years ago; professors who haven't kept up with their topics.... just like ANY OTHER profession to include entrepreneurship.

        To assume that all professors would make for lousy entrepreneurs is just simply silly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Kennedy
    So many misconceptions in this thread it's mind blowing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Melanie Crouse
    I really don't see how one is mutually exclusive of the other. Maybe I'm not educated enough to see the correlation, given that I am not an "academic."

    Successful entrepreneurs come from all sorts of backgrounds, have all sorts of different personalities and varying levels of education. If you have the drive, determination, mindset and ability - you will be a great entrepreneur, regardless of how many degrees you do or do not have.
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  • Profile picture of the author salegurus
    Originally Posted by CherylDewitt View Post

    Academic studies is very important to learn, perhaps it has a big part in making us a great person.
    PS. You are not fooling anyone with your pointless one liners
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  • Profile picture of the author azmanar
    Hi,

    Let's drill down.

    Do accountants make better entrepreneurs than the rest?
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by azmanar View Post

      Hi,

      Let's drill down.

      Do accountants make better entrepreneurs than the rest?
      Why do so many accountants keep books for entrepreneurs, see how much money they make... yet spend their entire lives as accountants trading time for dollars?
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      • Profile picture of the author azmanar
        Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

        Why do so many accountants keep books for entrepreneurs, see how much money they make... yet spend their entire lives as accountants trading time for dollars?
        lol.. Sal ... roflmao.

        I know enough accountants that work for people, work for themselves as well as become CEO/Presidents of public listed companies in the Far East.

        They have stark differences in Direction, Knowledge, Skills, Attitude and Habit ( D.K.S.A.H ). And all those attributes made them what they are today.

        Thus, they see things differently:

        -> An entrepreneurial mind would see biz opportunities
        -> A consulting mind would see future fees
        -> A working mind would see workload and bills.

        It all depends on their frame of DKSAH.
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      • Profile picture of the author cmccale
        Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

        Why do so many accountants keep books for entrepreneurs, see how much money they make... yet spend their entire lives as accountants trading time for dollars?
        That's assuming that those same accountants are working for someone else. ;-) Every accountant I have ever worked with, outside of the Fortune 500, worked for themselves for that very reason: they kept the books of entrepreneurs, saw the money - and followed it - realizing that they could make a better living and control the quality of their lives by running their own company.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by azmanar View Post

      Hi,

      Let's drill down.

      Do accountants make better entrepreneurs than the rest?
      Drill, baby. Economists do it with models.
      - Paul Uhl PhD Economics
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      • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        Drill, baby. Economists do it with models.
        - Paul Uhl PhD Economics
        lol accountants do it double entry
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

          lol accountants do it double entry

          Sounds like my kind of party...

          I ought to hang out with more accountants!!
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          • Profile picture of the author sal64
            Originally Posted by tpw View Post

            Sounds like my kind of party...

            I ought to hang out with more accountants!!
            Fair enough too. Stay away from matehmaticians. They work it out with a pencil.
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  • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
    Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

    Was having a recent discussion about mindset with a colleague. More specifically, clients / students who believe that you have to be a rocket scientist to make it on line.

    [...]

    So do academics make good entrepreneurs?
    The only advantage to be on the more "academic" side of the spectrum is to easily spot the flaws in your initial 'hypothesis'.

    You started talking about "making it online"... and in your later sentence you somehow implied that being an entrepreneur and making it online are the same.

    I hope you didn't mean that only those that make it online are entrepreneurs, did you?

    I cannot answer your question because I am not sure what was your question

    Can academics be successful ONLINE?
    Can academics be successful ENTREPRENEURS?
    Can academics be FREE-SPIRITED?

    P.S. I don't even know whether my expectation of flawless logic comes from my educated background or from my OCD... :confused:
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath View Post

      The only advantage to be on the more "academic" side of the spectrum is to easily spot the flaws in your initial 'hypothesis'.

      You started talking about "making it online"... and in your later sentence you somehow implied that being an entrepreneur and making it online are the same.

      I hope you didn't mean that only those that make it online are entrepreneurs, did you?

      I cannot answer your question because I am not sure what was your question

      Can academics be successful ONLINE?
      Can academics be successful ENTREPRENEURS?
      Can academics be FREE-SPIRITED?

      P.S. I don't even know whether my expectation of flawless logic comes from my educated background or from my OCD... :confused:
      Intelligent post Istvan.

      The short answer is no. In fact I'd guess that 90%+ on here are not entrepreneurs in the pure sense. I refer to online as this was the context of the conversation I was having.

      I was looking for rational feedback, not the emotional rantings of some.

      Just seeking to learn people's experiences compared to what I have seen with my clients.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

        I was looking for rational feedback, not the emotional rantings of some.

        Rational?

        That is a lot to ask of people in the Warrior Forum, isn't it? :p


        I don't think I have actually answered your question yet...

        So here goes...

        The Entrepreneurial Mindset is something you have or don't have, regardless of your level of education or lack thereof.

        Entrepreneurs are a breed unto themselves... Some are smashing successes, and others just get by...

        The level of education is not what makes the man/woman... But what he/she does with the knowledge that has been given to them.
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          Rational?

          That is a lot to ask of people in the Warrior Forum, isn't it? :p


          I don't think I have actually answered your question yet...

          So here goes...

          The Entrepreneurial Mindset is something you have or don't have, regardless of your level of education or lack thereof.

          Entrepreneurs are a breed unto themselves... Some are smashing successes, and others just get by...

          The level of education is not what makes the man/woman... But what he/she does with the knowledge that has been given to them.
          I tend to agree. It's not so much about education levels as opposed to ingrained character traits.

          Not all Harvard Business grads end up in business. Many end up working for others in highly paid jobs.
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        • Profile picture of the author azmanar
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          Rational?
          The level of education is not what makes the man/woman... But what he/she does with the knowledge that has been given to them.
          Bill,

          I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here. ... lol ... Just bringing up a concept of knowledge.

          Knowledge is acquired and cannot be transferred by giving.

          That's why we have teachers (lecturers/trainers) and students (trainees).

          Teachers teach, students listen.

          It is up to the students to apply, that subsequently produce results in their trials and errors. The outcome is various levels of understanding about the same subject matter. This understanding is knowledge.

          Knowledge has quality. From low quality to high quality.

          Applying high quality knowledge for future endeavours would have a high probability of success.

          Apparently, low quality knowledge begets low quality results, most of the time.

          However, quality knowledge alone is not enough to be an entrepreneur. You'll find many top students not being entrepreneurs.

          What makes an entrepreneur is his creative ways in using his knowledge to materialize his vision.
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    • Profile picture of the author dorianjohn425
      For me, entrepreneurs take more risks...
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    • Profile picture of the author Haruki92
      I would say those with high Academical level will less likely to be a good entrepreneur.Reason?Most of them thinks that they are smart and do not want to ask simple questions because they are afraid of being mocked and if it accumulates,you will definitely be missing out lots of essential knowledge.Also,they are afraid of failing because in school,their lecturers don't teach them to fail,they teach them to score as high marks as possible.These two points are what successful entrepreneurs have been emphasizing on.
      1)Don't be afraid of failing
      2)Ask questions

      This is just my opinion
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    • Profile picture of the author DrLegend
      I'll have to partially agree. I come from a VERY acedemic environment (have a PhD in math) and I am still struggling with making good money with my business. I think one of the main reasons is a disease called "thinking too much". Also I am good at understanding concepts, but struggle at apllying them into practice (although it's getting much better).

      The advantge is of course the fact that we can learn huge amounts of new stuff in a very short time.

      Any similar experiences around here?
      Ivan
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      • Profile picture of the author drmani
        Originally Posted by theemperor View Post

        This entire discussion is academic
        And it's being followed by many entrepreneurs

        Originally Posted by blog8491 View Post

        I like to replace "Sergei Brin and Larry Page" with your name
        Love it! btw, early on in my medical career, I decided to model those
        cardiac surgeons I saw as having an entrepreneurial streak to their
        work. One, whom I was fortunate to work with closely for a few years
        and count as one of my mentors, built India's biggest heart hospital
        in just 10 years - where almost FIVE THOUSAND operations are carried
        out every year!

        All success
        Dr.Mani
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      • Profile picture of the author cmccale
        Originally Posted by DrLegend View Post

        I'll have to partially agree. I come from a VERY acedemic environment (have a PhD in math) and I am still struggling with making good money with my business. I think one of the main reasons is a disease called "thinking too much". Also I am good at understanding concepts, but struggle at apllying them into practice (although it's getting much better).

        The advantge is of course the fact that we can learn huge amounts of new stuff in a very short time.

        Any similar experiences around here?
        Ivan
        I'm sorry for your experience. But I wouldn't diminish your incredible accomplishments by blaming them for your struggles in IM.

        The skills you have from your academic preparation incredibly valuable. You've been taught to question: to not just follow the bouncing ball or to buy into the latest "hype" or buy the most current shiny object.

        You've been taught the scientific method - you understand there is a process for things. That understanding of processes will ABSOLUTELY help you as you grow your business.

        Your IM business is a reflection of who you are: your core values, your interests, skills; it should capitalize on the things that YOU are uniquely good at and enjoy. Like writing? Great - pursue that. Love analysis - maybe you should be looking more at running crm solutions for IM folks? There are REALLY great marketers out there who ARE PHDs, JDs and MDs (Dr Mani being one!) who do great stuff and have a whole lot of education behind them.

        Just my two cents worth.
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  • Profile picture of the author ejm
    I don't post very often but I thought I would chime in on this thread since I can relate to it.

    My best subject in high school and college was Mathematics. I have a degree in IT.

    Maybe this is why I'm having a hard time making it as an entrepreneur as much as I want to be successful.

    I tend to be caught up with details than looking at the big picture.

    I hope to change my thinking and hopefully will be successful in making it as an entrepreneur.
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    • Profile picture of the author azmanar
      Originally Posted by ejm View Post

      I don't post very often but I thought I would chime in on this thread since I can relate to it.

      My best subject in high school and college was Mathematics. I have a degree in IT.

      Maybe this is why I'm having a hard time making it as an entrepreneur as much as I want to be successful.

      I tend to be caught up with details than looking at the big picture.

      I hope to change my thinking and hopefully will be successful in making it as an entrepreneur.
      Hi,

      I have a friend with a Degree in Mathematics from Leicester U. He was teaching earlier. Right now he is operating his own hi-tech factory producing Green Materials and has exhibited his products from China to France.

      Another friend is a Mechanical Engineer. After resigning from Mattel, he now owns a factory producing green-based autoparts for Toyota China and Proton Malaysia.

      Worth mentioning is another friend, who has a Degree in Law. He is currently having 3 outlets selling luxury high-powered Big Bikes from Germany, Italy and Japan.

      There is also an acquaintance, an Electrical Engineer. He resigned his senior position and started a web-based Software Development company. 9 municipals ( district offices ) of a state are using his software for asset management which is connected to GIS ( Geographical Information System ) as well.

      All 4 of them got their funds from banks partly and venture capitalists. There are more but we leave it at that.

      What are their similarities ?
      1. Their businesses do not reflect their education
      2. They have a direction in life - entrepreneurial ventures
      3. They are resourceful, strong-willed and optimistic.

      It doesn't matter what you are and what is your education.

      When you want something, dream about it, plan well and go get it.

      This thread seems to be is about pessimism, that should be debunked.
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        Let me clarify...

        When I say Academic, I don't mean that one has a diploma or phd. I am referring to one's work / career environment.

        There are millions who have degrees and don't use them... myself included. We get them because we are told that it's the only path to financial security.

        Well, that's the major accepted view of society. But that's another debate altogether.

        Originally Posted by azmanar View Post

        Hi,

        I have a friend with a Degree in Mathematics from Leicester U. He was teaching earlier. Right now he is operating his own hi-tech factory producing Green Materials and has exhibited his products from China to France.

        Another friend is a Mechanical Engineer. After resigning from Mattel, he now owns a factory producing green-based autoparts for Toyota China and Proton Malaysia.

        Worth mentioning is another friend, who has a Degree in Law. He is currently having 3 outlets selling luxury high-powered Big Bikes from Germany, Italy and Japan.

        There is also an acquaintance, an Electrical Engineer. He resigned his senior position and started a web-based Software Development company. 9 municipals ( district offices ) of a state are using his software for asset management which is connected to GIS ( Geographical Information System ) as well.

        All 4 of them got their funds from banks partly and venture capitalists. There are more but we leave it at that.

        What are their similarities ?
        1. Their businesses do not reflect their education
        2. They have a direction in life - entrepreneurial ventures
        3. They are resourceful, strong-willed and optimistic.

        It doesn't matter what you are and what is your education.

        When you want something, dream about it, plan well and go get it.

        This thread seems to be is about pessimism, that should be debunked.
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        • Profile picture of the author azmanar
          Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

          Let me clarify...

          When I say Academic, I don't mean that one has a diploma or phd. I am referring to one's work / career environment.

          There are millions who have degrees and don't use them... myself included. We get them because we are told that it's the only path to financial security.

          Well, that's the major accepted view of society. But that's another debate altogether.
          Hi Sal,

          I was merely replying to the post before mine about Mathematicians. Not really relevant to your interesting topic.

          You really have issues with Academics..... lol.... I do some times when they get very fickle about things ... lol ... Been working closely with them in some projects.

          Well, for the past hours I've been downloading lots of resources. Now it is done. I'm outta here.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
            At least the educated don't make some of the dumb assumptions I see in this thread. Like everybody else (whether they never graduated, have a high school education, or did some college) some academics make good entrepreneurs, others don't.

            This has nothing to do with education. It has to do with mindset.
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          • Profile picture of the author sal64
            Why if a question is posed, does one have to have issues??

            After all what the heck is a forum for?

            Maybe I should rephrase my question to: Do intellectuals make good entrepreneurs?


            Originally Posted by azmanar View Post

            Hi Sal,

            I was merely replying to the post before mine about Mathematicians. Not really relevant to your interesting topic.

            You really have issues with Academics..... lol.... I do some times when they get very fickle about things ... lol ... Been working closely with them in some projects.

            Well, for the past hours I've been downloading lots of resources. Now it is done. I'm outta here.
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        • Profile picture of the author myob
          Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

          Let me clarify...

          When I say Academic, I don't mean that one has a diploma or phd. I am referring to one's work / career environment.
          With this clarification, anyone working in academia without credentials certainly would be considered extremely entrepreneurial.
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  • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
    When I was in college all my room mates studied went to class etc etc.

    3 of the 5 went on to be CPAs at one of the big 8(yes there used to be 8) accounting firms. The other 2 are CEO and CFO of billion dollar companies.

    I played tennis and drank A LOT in school. I now hire accountants, own a multi million dollar company and make more than all 5 of them combined.

    N1 result.
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  • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
    I do NOT think being an academic prevents you from being a good entrepreneur.

    It is that MOST academics do things by the rules. They go to college, get a job work for others and are probably happy and satisfied with this. The VAST majority of people will never have a business of their own.

    Thank goodness this is true, for if it were not there would NEVER be enough employees to work for the entrepreneurs.


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  • Profile picture of the author Jaymark
    The easy answer is ... it depends. There are some brilliant academics who make incredible entrepreneurs. Look at Hewlett and Packard. There was also a Caltech professor who eventually went on the start a little company called Intel.

    Then there are brilliant academics who don't know the first thing about business or making money from one. So again from my perspective there are no hard and fast answers. The only thing is that an academic usually has great information to share which may be of interest to a lot of folks. That can be an integral part of a great business.
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  • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
    Notice the academics write a freaking book and still don't show good examples to prove their point.

    Einstein was an entrepreneur? You listed inventors NOT entrepreneurs. Stick to the thread title

    Being paid NOT to go to college

    Pay Pal Co-Founder paying $100,000 NOT to go to college

    PayPal Co-Founder Hands Out $100,000 Fellowships To Not Go To College : The Two-Way : NPR
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      No, academices write books but don't know how to market them.

      Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

      Notice the academics write a freaking book and still don't show good examples to prove their point.

      Einstein was an entrepreneur? You listed inventors NOT entrepreneurs. Stick to the thread title

      Being paid NOT to go to college

      Pay Pal Co-Founder paying $100,000 NOT to go to college

      PayPal Co-Founder Hands Out $100,000 Fellowships To Not Go To College : The Two-Way : NPR
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  • Profile picture of the author Zanen22
    People in academics are trained to be told what to do and how to do it. They are trained to spend the first 22ish years of their life in school and then right when they graduate college, they expect to get a job.
    Companies want someone they can fit in a single position.

    Most people who graduate college don't graduate college to then start their own business, they graduate to get a job within a company.

    They become successful entrepreneurs when they see an idea that has 95% success rate. It's rare to have those opportunities right in front of your face.

    People who dropout or don't go to college know that they need to fight to survive. It seems they are willing to fail more in order to succeed.


    Also, the entrepreneur mindset isn't a genetic disposition. It's not giving to you at birth. It is a skill developed based on your experiences in life and how you're brought up. It's a drive to achieve a dream.

    Don't say you have it or you don't. You have it or you haven't developed the mindset, the skill, the desire to be an entrepreneur...
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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    I went to school to become an engineer- something I regret these days, now that I know IM is my true calling.

    Academics can certainly become entrepreneurs... but I think it's a lot tougher.

    In school you're taught there's a right answer and a wrong answer, you're taught to listen and obey, and you are taught to study, study, study

    In the business/entrepreneurial world, there's more than one way to reach the end goal, you need self-discipline to think into the future and obey yourself (not a teacher or boss), and you have to do, do, do

    To be honest, the only real advantage I see that academics have in the business world is that they know how to learn and study.

    I don't even think you can argue that they have self-discpline, because it's a different type. Academics fear a bad grade or getting yelled at by a boss- entrepreneurs fear their business won't flourish.

    Bottom line is- yes we academics can make good entrepreneurs, but the vast majority of us are going to over-analyze, over-study, and over-think EVERYTHING instead of actually taking action.

    Academics look for the magic bullet- the one solution that's "the right one".

    Entrepreneurs put a possible solution in front of people who want it.
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  • Profile picture of the author murtuza
    Here's what I feel that makes someone successful in IM and probably whatever field one goes into, without this thought process you are sure to fail, this is what I believe...

    1. Have a burning desire to achieve your definite goal.

    2. Your goal should be BIG and definite.

    3. Focus on one thing at a time and make it really BIG and exciting.

    4. Believe that you can succeed. If you don't have belief create artificial belief by doing affirmations and visualization.

    5. Setup a concrete specific and definite plan that lays down every nuts and bolts that will take you towards your end goal.

    6. Take massive action towards your end goal.

    7. Be persistent, never ever quit, no matter how much time or how many problems you face to reach there.

    8. Get started, it is not necessary to be perfect to get started.

    9. Focus in setting up systems. Create a system, test it, increase the speed of your system and then reinvest your profits into the system.

    10. Don't fear to get out of your comfort zone as your success lies outside your comfort zone.

    Just my 2 cents, this system makes people millionaires, this is what I believe....:rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
      Originally Posted by murtuza View Post

      Here's what I feel that makes someone successful in IM and probably whatever field one goes into, without this thought process you are sure to fail, this is what I believe...

      1. Have a burning desire to achieve your definite goal.

      2. Your goal should be BIG and definite. When I changed my goals from big to just making $25 a day is when I started to succeed.

      3. Focus on one thing at a time and make it really BIG and exciting.

      4. Believe that you can succeed. If you don't have belief create artificial belief by doing affirmations and visualization.

      5. Setup a concrete specific and definite plan that lays down every nuts and bolts that will take you towards your end goal. I don't know what I am going to do for the day. I make it up as I go along depending upon what is in my email for that day.

      6. Take massive action towards your end goal. I take TINY TINY TINY actions. Take a big action and you could be out of the game before you even start.

      7. Be persistent, never ever quit, no matter how much time or how many problems you face to reach there. You should know when to quit. Quitting is not necessarily a bad thing. Seth Godin's book The Dip is a good read on this.

      8. Get started, it is not necessary to be perfect to get started.

      9. Focus in setting up systems. Create a system, test it, increase the speed of your system and then reinvest your profits into the system.

      10. Don't fear to get out of your comfort zone as your success lies outside your comfort zone.

      Just my 2 cents, this system makes people millionaires, this is what I believe....:rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author Ruth Hendrickson
        I believe academics can make very good entrepreneurs. They are usually good at organization, have drive, and can focus on the task at hand. Writing usually comes easy to them, and they are experienced researchers.

        Academics usually have jobs they like with good salaries This could keep them from wanting to make it on their own. Like others have said, the desire is probably the most important element to having your own business.
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          Interesting viewpoint, Ruth.

          Surely there are also non Acs who possess that skill set as well?

          Much as I possibly have the wrong definition of Academics, I think many on here misunderstand the true definition of an Ent. As stated earlier, being self-employed does not automatically make you and entrepreneur. Especially if you are trading time for $$.

          Originally Posted by Ruth Hendrickson View Post

          I believe academics can make very good entrepreneurs. They are usually good at organization, have drive, and can focus on the task at hand. Writing usually comes easy to them, and they are experienced researchers.

          Academics usually have jobs they like with good salaries This could keep them from wanting to make it on their own. Like others have said, the desire is probably the most important element to having your own business.
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  • Profile picture of the author anthonyb
    Being an academic and an entrepreneur are not mutually exclusive. If an academic has survival instinct he or she will do just fine. In fact I postulate that anyone can be an entrepreneur if their very survival depended on it. Then again most can be academics if they are so interest
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    • Profile picture of the author MValmont
      No, not at ALL.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Ansar Pasha
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      I think "academics" and "entrepreneurs" have completely different personality make ups that drive them. That's not to say you can't have a little or a lot of each that are required to be successful in either profession.

      For example, an academic might be very analytical, "has to get the facts first before they do anything", and very interested in figuring out the worlds problems.

      But an entrepreneur on the other hand has traits such as taking risks, overcoming obstacles, putting together a team, and so on.

      And there are qualities that both share.

      As a side note, I used to work with a math professor who also claimed even the "smart" ones can be true morons, I'm guessing he was talking about social or street smarts. Lets face it - we all know some uber geek intellectual who isn't that smart outside of academia

      John Carlton also has an interesting post on this, a classic:
      Intelligent, Educated Savvy | The RANT

      I'm not taking sides with anyone - I think both academics and entrepreneurs both share admirable traits. Just that they aren't always best suited for one another.

      Ansar
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      The Op has nothing to do with earning potentials whatsoever. It's about traits required.

      Nor is it about which is the better life option.

      Can? Might? Should? No... do they?

      I have one friend. Went to Uni in Sweden. Worked for the UN. Earned $300k+ per annum. Went into business. Now facing a 20mill lawsuit.

      Another friend is a country boy. Owns 2 McDonald franchises. Has more money than he knows what to do with... go figure.


      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      My guess is that a lot of responders to this thread have absolutely no idea the earnings potential in the academic community alone.

      Aside from teaching, access to research facilities, grants, publishing, speaking etc., it's all there for those choosing to take advantage of it.



      Ask yourself this - do Internet Marketers make good Entrepreneurs? Based on this presumed 95% failure rate, I'd have to answer no. Why would it be different for Academics?

      I do think, over the long-term, an academic would stand a better chance of achieving success simply because of the mindset, work ethics, the attention to detail, etc.
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          you have lost me mate. What generalizations?

          I asked a simple question about a subject based on my experiences.

          I have never implied one or the other.

          For all you know, I may well be an academic.

          Still, I guess people will read into to as they see fit.

          Never did I mention IM. I am relating to entrepreneurs generally.

          Is it really that ambiguous?

          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          The problem is your OP makes generalizations about a specific "Group", i.e.; academics, which you're trying to qualify with individual examples, rather than group ones.

          By your logic, all "Country Boys" make better Entrepreneurs than those who attended university. That's nothing more than a statistical anomaly - not a pattern.

          I'd hazard a guess that the success rate in academia is the inverse of IM. I'll repeat the traits I mentioned in case you missed them - mindset, work ethics and attention to detail.

          Entrepreneurialism is ALL about earnings potential - is what drives the true Entrepreneur in the first place.
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          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

              Entrepreneurs are a sub-group made up of members of a multitude of other, much larger, diverse groups. It doesn't matter whether you're referring to a cultural, political, educational, professional, ethic, religious or other group.

              I beg your pardon...

              I am unique, just like everyone else... :p
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            • Profile picture of the author sal64
              With respect, if you can set your ego aside for a moment, scroll thru and you will see that I have thanked various posters of differing opinions.

              To presume to know where I'm coming from, what experience I have etc, shows your arrogance to be honest.


              Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

              Again, this is a generalization and my point. You're trying to arrive at a conclusion based on limited experience/data.



              No, you didn't imply - you clearly stated your opinion.



              No, people will read into it what you wrote. You asked a very specific question and then rather than provide data supporting your position/thoughts on it, you provided a couple of specific examples to reach an overly generalized conclusion.

              It doesn't matter if you're an academic or not. It doesn't matter if you're successful as an Entrepreneur or not. The two are not mutually exclusive nor indicative of a pattern.



              Ah, so there are no IM'ers who are Entrepreneurs? These two words are synonymous with each other, albeit in vaguely accurate sense.

              And you use the word generally, but then say you're not making generalizations?



              No, your responses are ambiguous because you're trying to defend an untenable position.

              The point you don't seem to be grasping is that Entrepreneurs are a sub-group made up of members of a multitude of other, much larger, diverse groups. It doesn't matter whether you're referring to a cultural, political, educational, professional, ethnic, religious or other group.

              The answer is always going to be the same - it has nothing to do with being a member of one or more of these groups. It has nothing to do with academics.

              Your question has been answered over and over in this thread, but you don't want to accept that. As a result, your responses just aren't making any sense.
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              • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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                • Profile picture of the author sal64
                  Therein lies my point.

                  You assume that I am trying to stereotype people.

                  Dead wrong!

                  I have a view and contrary to what you think that is, the reason I started the thread was to garner other people's views... and not validate them for me.

                  Otherwise I would have made the statement rather than ask the question.

                  If my view is ill founded, then I stand to be corrected or enlightened as the case may be.

                  Unlike many, I am open to counter argument based on logic... yours included.

                  And apart from the emotional drivel by some people who have misconstrued the OP, I have achieved a broad cross section of views.

                  As for the name calling... from where I sit, it looks like you're playing the man and not the ball. But hey I could easily be wrong, just as you are wrong about my reasoning behind this thread.






                  Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                  So we resort to name calling? Nice way to handle a discussion...that you started no less. :rolleyes:

                  All you've done by reply is call me names because my viewpoint is different from your own - that's, well, interesting, to be polite about it.

                  I stand by every single word I wrote; calling me arrogant or talking about me ego doesn't change the fact that you're wrong in trying to pigeonhole or stereotype any group of people.

                  And yes, I do have a very BIG....um, ego.
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          • Profile picture of the author Scott Kennedy
            Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

            you have lost me mate. What generalizations?
            You generalized "academics". You never specified what you meant by the term. As such the discussion that has ensued has been a waste of time. Some people consider you an academic if you have a Bachelor degree, others consider you an academic if you have a vocational education, others (like myself) believe that an academic is someone who has earned a Ph.D and is currently working within the realm of academia (IE - undertaking research and teaching at a university).

            If you had been specific in your original question you would have gathered many more constructive responses.

            Your original question is akin to me asking "Do consultants make good entrepreneurs?". What kind of consultants? How do I define a consultant etc.
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            • Profile picture of the author sal64
              sorry... double post.


              Originally Posted by Scott Kennedy View Post

              You generalized "academics". You never specified what you meant by the term. As such the discussion that has ensued has been a waste of time. Some people consider you an academic if you have a Bachelor degree, others consider you an academic if you have a vocational education, others (like myself) believe that an academic is someone who has earned a Ph.D and is currently working within the realm of academia (IE - undertaking research and teaching at a university).

              If you had been specific in your original question you would have gathered many more constructive responses.

              Your original question is akin to me asking "Do consultants make good entrepreneurs?". What kind of consultants? How do I define a consultant etc.
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            • Profile picture of the author sal64
              Yes, I agree. However I did go on to clarify my position as best I could.

              Actually stated it quite a few times.

              Suggest you re read the thread.


              Originally Posted by Scott Kennedy View Post

              You generalized "academics". You never specified what you meant by the term. As such the discussion that has ensued has been a waste of time. Some people consider you an academic if you have a Bachelor degree, others consider you an academic if you have a vocational education, others (like myself) believe that an academic is someone who has earned a Ph.D and is currently working within the realm of academia (IE - undertaking research and teaching at a university).

              If you had been specific in your original question you would have gathered many more constructive responses.

              Your original question is akin to me asking "Do consultants make good entrepreneurs?". What kind of consultants? How do I define a consultant etc.
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            • Profile picture of the author azmanar
              Hi Sal,

              Your come back to WF is quite an entrance, especially by having a really sticky thread.

              I agree with Big Mike, that you ought to handle this discussion without name calling. It will take away the very advantage you already had going on in here, if you are not careful.

              So, I still say Academics can be great entrepreneurs when they wanted to. Just like everyone else of non-academic careers, anyone who wants to be an entrepreneur need to have the right attributes and get immersed in the right environment.

              I'll repeat the attributes : Direction, Knowledge, Skills, Attitude & Habit. The right attributes can be acquired. It is up to anyone !

              If anyone wants to be an entrepreneur, they need to eat, drink, talk, write, plan and sleep with that dream. They create the environment to achieve it.

              However, being an entrepreneur is not everything. It is not special and not being above everyone else.

              Again another story.

              There was this guy who was teaching Civil Engineering in a University College. He resigned at the age of 45 and pursued his dream as a property developer. Some of his projects included building government schools. The biz synchronized pretty well with his background. Now he expanded his biz by being a supplier of building materials to the industry.

              I met him in Makkah some years ago. We became close friends. He wanted to test 2 things :
              1. How does it feels like being an international trader
              2. How does it feels like being a tour operator

              Lol... As an opportunist, I planned and packaged both projects for him. He was extremely happy with each of the one-time experience.

              If you're curious to know, the international trade experience was exhibiting coffee products and canned pineapple in Dubai. The other was a grand tour of Middle-East - from Bahrain to Lebanon, for him and his business associates. Matched what he wanted.

              So you see, that is an academic.

              Now I did mention, being an entrepreneur is not everything. Just by being better off than others is too materialistic. Being happy and feeling good are what most wise and sensible people should be looking for as well.

              I have more stories to share, but I think this thread has had enough of me and my stories already. lol.
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              • I tend to agree with the OP's observations.

                Obviously there are always going to be academics who make good entrepreneurs, and by the looks of it, there are quite a few in this thread. But if we are generalising, then I think 'HarrisonJ' hit the nail on the head.

                Originally Posted by HarrisonJ View Post

                They are less likely to see the big picture, and instead focus on details that don't really matter when it comes to making money.
                This is exactly the mindset of many academics. Of course there are always exceptions, and I guess these 'exceptions' are living the dream and have the best of both worlds.

                I think the biggest picture is doing what makes you happy. Some people work to live, others live to work. IM is one of those exceptions that allows you to do both.
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  • Profile picture of the author uebomoyi
    I've also noticed that a lot of people who had a harsh upbringing usually did a lot better than those who came from a more pampered academic background. I think those who are uneducated do well because they don't really have a lot of safety nets and there situation is more so a do or die type of thing. Whereas with the educated people, they have time, money but no patience which is probably what leads to their downfall.
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    • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
      Originally Posted by uebomoyi View Post

      I've also noticed that a lot of people who had a harsh upbringing usually did a lot better than those who came from a more pampered academic background. I think those who are uneducated do well because they don't really have a lot of safety nets and there situation is more so a do or die type of thing. Whereas with the educated people, they have time, money but no patience which is probably what leads to their downfall.
      agree 100%

      I find now that I have done well and don't have to struggle for money I am much less likely to take a risk and jump into a new business.
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      • Profile picture of the author Heidi White
        Re: Do Academics Make Good Entrepreneurs?

        It depends.

        I've seen too many highly educated people from my generation on their fourth or fifth or even tenth careers -often getting knocked down a notch with each lay-off (yes - that's typically the only reason they are in a new career)- and harboring MAJOR RESENTMENTS because of this.

        Now, should they find themselves unemployed and seeking relief in the Online Marketing world . . . the same entitlement mentality (I have this great education - so I deserve a great job/great pay) could get in the way of starting in the trenches and doing the hard work to make 'it' happen...

        so...instead of debasing themselves by actually creating a product, making any money or moving forward to make this online thing work - they instead go about pursuing an unofficial degree in online marketing, hitting everyone else over the head with their intelligence and knowledge.

        And when there's a question - they don't know the answer to . . . they suggest that we Google it.

        But I'm sure that's just a small percentage..:rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author azmanar
        Originally Posted by uebomoyi View Post

        I've also noticed that a lot of people who had a harsh upbringing usually did a lot better than those who came from a more pampered academic background. I think those who are uneducated do well because they don't really have a lot of safety nets and there situation is more so a do or die type of thing. Whereas with the educated people, they have time, money but no patience which is probably what leads to their downfall.
        Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

        agree 100%
        I find now that I have done well and don't have to struggle for money I am much less likely to take a risk and jump into a new business.
        Hi,

        Have you ever heard of people living in a vicious life cycle that they cannot run away from? There are plenty of people in such situation around the globe. They are like living in aquariums of violence, drugs, destitution, sickness and modern day slavery.

        Some managed to climbed out of the fire but went straight into the frying pan.

        Only a small number of them are fortunate, however. But not without a helping hand or not without seeing an opportunity that he could seize. Yes he struggled, became biz-street wise and finally made it.

        I'm not sure of any who became millionaire or billionaire from such unfortunate background.

        On the other, many with pampered lifes do squander. Many do not as well. Whether they squander or not, does not mean a thing. Their parents have laid down almost endless opportunities for them to inherit. They inherit connections, networks and ready businesses. With the ready circle of support from their parent's closest friends, the probability of them flopping their parent's businesses are low. In fact, sooner or later, they will grow mature enough to follow the biz track.

        And these people belong to the 3 percent of the world population that controls 97% of the wealth.

        I think growing-up environment is the main factor that makes a person an entrepreneur - biz environment, surrounded by biz people who talk biz, expansion, risks and all sorts of talks related to biz.

        My guess is, the majority of successful entrepreneurs came from a biz environment - small biz, medium biz and big biz environment. They have the knack to sell stuff at school even when their parents were just labourers or street peddlars.

        WF is a good biz environment albeit for online one.
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  • Profile picture of the author ajona
    It seems as it the majority of marketers have been doing it part time for a while to help pay for our astronomical tuition prices...
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  • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
    Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

    So do academics make good entrepreneurs? And what do you think makes one?
    It's simple: "No! They don't".

    Being an academic doesn't mean that you can't be a good entrepreneur. But in reality most academics aren't.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by drmani View Post

      Depends.

      Would you classify Sergei Brin and Larry Page as 'academics'? Or 'entrepreneurs'?



      All success
      Dr.Mani
      Or how about a certain noted, highly respected heart surgeon? Definitely both!

      A lot of you are hanging out with the wrong academics. To reach the upper echelons of many fields of study, especially tech, engineering, bioscience, etc. takes a remarkably entrepreneurial mindset.

      A typical top-level research project requires a plan every bit as sophisticated as the business plans of 'entrepreneurs'.

      The researcher has to find funding, assemble a team, coordinate different tasks, show results and sell those results, often in a highly competitive atmosphere.

      Sounds a lot like launching an entrepreneurial venture, does it not?

      As opposed to peddling some acne ebook, conning people into filling out a CPA form, or other online hustles.

      Bottom line, do academics make good entrepreneurs? Yeah, some of them. Same as just about any other demographic group you might choose...
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      • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        takes a remarkably entrepreneurial mindset.

        A typical top-level research project requires a plan every bit as sophisticated as the business plans of 'entrepreneurs'.

        The researcher has to find funding, assemble a team, coordinate different tasks, show results and sell those results, often in a highly competitive atmosphere.
        .
        That may be an entrepreneurial mindset but it is NOT an entrepreneur.

        en·tre·pre·neurNoun/ˌäntrəprəˈno͝or/

        1. A person who organizes and operates a business or businesses, taking on financial risk to do so.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

          That may be an entrepreneurial mindset but it is NOT an entrepreneur.

          en·tre·pre·neurNoun/ˌäntrəprəˈno͝or/

          1. A person who organizes and operates a business or businesses, taking on financial risk to do so.
          I didn't realize that the question had morphed into "Are academics entrepreneurs?" My bad... :rolleyes:

          My point was, and is, that many academics would make excellent entrepreneurs should they ever decide to go in that direction. And many do.

          If we take a few of the obvious figures (Gates, Dell, a few others) out of consideration, I would wager that many of the startups in the tech fields are founded by former academics.

          By your definition, every clown who plunks down $10 to put up a splog touting some quack affiliate product is an 'entrepreneur'. Maybe so, in the strict definition you offered. But are they good entrepreneurs?
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      • Profile picture of the author drmani
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        A lot of you are hanging out with the wrong academics. To reach the upper echelons of many fields of study, especially tech, engineering, bioscience, etc. takes a remarkably entrepreneurial mindset.

        A typical top-level research project requires a plan every bit as sophisticated as the business plans of 'entrepreneurs'.
        That's GOLDEN insight, John. Very true. And involves a lot of cross-specialty
        information/knowledge, and co-ordination with experts across multiple areas
        as well. Plus, in many cases, the stakes are higher than with a potential failed
        business!

        All success
        Dr.Mani
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        • Profile picture of the author Henry White
          If there is any "problem" with academics it's that they're experts in too narrowly defined specialties, and as ill-informed and mislead as the average Joe Sixpack about everything outside their area of expertise.

          Still, true entrepreneurs cut across all professions, trades, crafts. And if you've been paying any attention at all to recent threads, it even reaches a growing number of secondary school students! That's more empowering than any PhD from any Ivy League university! Plus they don't have to go into 6-figure debt! ['Course, I still encourage them to get as much post-secondary education as they can, just not under the pretext that it's going to be as financially rewarding.]

          Part of this is a question of generation (the older they are the more likely to tend toward being a bit of technophobe) and discipline (hard sciences like engineering, physics, chemistry, computer science embraced it decades ago; soft sciences and the more liberal arts are and probably will remain stuck in the 19th century forever with Karl Marx and Thomas Malthus).
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  • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
    really?

    I was under the impression that most mcdonalds net is less than a million per year for the owner?

    McDonalds Franchise - Buying a McDonalds Franchise For Sale - McDonalds Profits, Sales, Earnings - McDonalds FDD


    Add to that the cost of between $650,000 to 2.1 mil to get started I am just not seeing it.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

      really?

      I was under the impression that most mcdonalds net is less than a million per year for the owner?

      McDonalds Franchise - Buying a McDonalds Franchise For Sale - McDonalds Profits, Sales, Earnings - McDonalds FDD


      Add to that the cost of between $650,000 to 2.1 mil to get started I am just not seeing it.
      Not down under they ain't... not sure about his, but he's doing ok. And with a major mall being across the street... he's smiling.

      Our stores are different here than in the USA... much different.

      Mind you, he has been an owner for about 20 years.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      According to the McDonalds FDD Item 19, the average sales volume of traditional restaurants in the U.S. open at least one year was $2.4 million in 2010. The highest sales volume for a U.S. McDonalds in 2010 was $9.8 million (the "star" performer). The lowest performing restaurant clocked in at $387,000.
      Item 19 of the McDonalds FDD goes on to list proforma financial results for restaurants that hit three different sales levels - $2 million, $2.2 million and $2.4 million, showing cost of sales, gross profit and operating profit at each level. Operating profits are in the mid to high six figures at each sales level.
      Above items sourced from link shown in quote below.




      Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      Another friend is a country boy. Owns 2 McDonald franchises. Has more money than he knows what to do with... go figure.

      really?

      I was under the impression that most mcdonalds net is less than a million per year for the owner?

      McDonalds Franchise - Buying a McDonalds Franchise For Sale - McDonalds Profits, Sales, Earnings - McDonalds FDD


      Add to that the cost of between $650,000 to 2.1 mil to get started I am just not seeing it.

      What are you not seeing exactly?

      The guy owns 2 McD franchises, and by your guidelines of assuming that he earns the average for a McDonald's franchise holder, and according the the information provided on the referenced page, his two stores likely have "Operating profits are in the mid to high six figures".

      With two McD franchises, he is pulling between 1 and 2 million per year, operating profits!

      Back to what Sal said, "Has more money than he knows what to do with..."

      Where exactly is the disconnect?

      Is it the "$650,000 to 2.1 mil to get started"?

      Paid in advance or financed over 10 years?

      If paid in advance, I'd say that earning between 100% or 33% of your original investment per year as profits is a good investment of one's wealth.

      I am sure I used the wrong online calculator, but I look at this one, which is actually a mortgage calculator.

      I calculated the payback rate for a $2.1 million loan over 10 years at 10%. His monthly payment would be, $27,751.65 per month or $333,019.80 per year, per store.

      With operating profits in the low to mid 7-figures, he should be able to pay his yearly debt costs of just over $665,000 per year, and still take home anywhere from $300,000 to $800,000 per year --- assuming that the loan schedule is not calculated as part of his operating costs, which I am sure it actually would be.

      What exactly is wrong with Sal's story about his friend?

      Do you feel that low 7-figure earnings per year does not qualify as, "more money than he knows what to do with"?

      Maybe I have different priorities in my life, but if I was taking home 7-figures a year, I would never be able to spend all of my earnings. I would also have "more money than I know what to do with"...


      Please set aside your disbelief for a moment and explain what is wrong with this story?
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        5 years ago he asked / told to renovate one franchise. He had to foot the $1.1m loan. But he also negotiated a new 20 year lease.

        since then he has had the best 5 years growth ever.

        Once again, our stores are much different down here to the ones I have seen in the USA.

        Oh, and I mentioned he was a country lad purely as part of the comparison... not saying that country people make better Ent'rs.

        As posted earlier, maybe Academics is the wrong choice by me.

        Maybe it should have been intellectuals.

        Let's be clear on my views: Having a degree does not make you an academic. being self-employed does not make you an entrepreneur.

        Maybe people just gloss over the thread and comment only on parts they relate to?

        For the record, I think airline pilots make excellent day traders.




        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Above items sourced from link shown in quote below.







        What are you not seeing exactly?

        The guy owns 2 McD franchises, and by your guidelines of assuming that he earns the average for a McDonald's franchise holder, and according the the information provided on the referenced page, his two stores likely have "Operating profits are in the mid to high six figures".

        With two McD franchises, he is pulling between 1 and 2 million per year, operating profits!

        Back to what Sal said, "Has more money than he knows what to do with..."

        Where exactly is the disconnect?

        Is it the "$650,000 to 2.1 mil to get started"?

        Paid in advance or financed over 10 years?

        If paid in advance, I'd say that earning between 100% or 33% of your original investment per year as profits is a good investment of one's wealth.

        I am sure I used the wrong online calculator, but I look at this one, which is actually a mortgage calculator.

        I calculated the payback rate for a $2.1 million loan over 10 years at 10%. His monthly payment would be, $27,751.65 per month or $333,019.80 per year, per store.

        With operating profits in the low to mid 7-figures, he should be able to pay his yearly debt costs of just over $665,000 per year, and still take home anywhere from $300,000 to $800,000 per year --- assuming that the loan schedule is not calculated as part of his operating costs, which I am sure it actually would be.

        What exactly is wrong with Sal's story about his friend?

        Do you feel that low 7-figure earnings per year does not qualify as, "more money than he knows what to do with"?

        Maybe I have different priorities in my life, but if I was taking home 7-figures a year, I would never be able to spend all of my earnings. I would also have "more money than I know what to do with"...


        Please set aside your disbelief for a moment and explain what is wrong with this story?
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  • Profile picture of the author marcuslim
    I once heard Eben Pagan say that the difference between an expert and a marketer is that the expert tells you what you should know, while the marketer tells you what you want to know.

    Academics also tend to be more 'what' learners in that they are more concerned about the theory of something, while entrepreneurs are 'how' and 'what if' learners in that they take action on what they've learnt.
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  • Profile picture of the author KamauAustin
    They make good managers and consultants but entrepreneurs - not so much IMHO. I've had some work for me and with me.

    Many people with advanced degrees (masters and above) have a hard time even completing a blog or web site I've found. They are very theoretical and great quoting famous people but have a hard time completing simple common sense tasks.

    Seriously I know people with advanced degrees and they are always working on their websites but never seem to be able to finish a basic website or blog. They are better working in corporate America or Academia on teams of developers to actually get things accomplished in my experience.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by KamauAustin View Post

      Many people with advanced degrees (masters and above) have a hard time even completing a blog or web site I've found. They are very theoretical and great quoting famous people but have a hard time completing simple common sense tasks.
      An educated person is one who has learned that information almost always turns out to be at best incomplete and very often false, misleading, fictitious, mendacious - just dead wrong.

      - Russell Baker
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    • Profile picture of the author drmani
      Originally Posted by KamauAustin View Post

      They make good managers and consultants but entrepreneurs - not so much IMHO. I've had some work for me and with me.
      The entrepreneurial ones might work WITH you, but not FOR you. It's at the root
      of their mindset - "employee" versus "entrepreneur".

      One occupies jobs - the other creates them.

      It would take more time than I have available now to expound on my views on
      the difference between the two mindsets - but imho, they lie at the core of
      whether one is an entrepreneur or employee... and education levels, formal
      coaching/training, or even skills or talents have less to do with it than this
      distinction.

      My 2 cents

      All success
      Dr.Mani
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    I remember donald trump once saying that a degree is good, but sometimes hey would rathar pick someone who is street smart and has experience. Rather than loaded up with PHD's and degrees mounted on walls.
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  • Profile picture of the author HorseStall
    Personally I think its difficult for a pure academic to become an entrepeneur. Rarely do things work in business, the way they are supposed to, as presented in a classroom.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by HorseStall View Post

      Personally I think its difficult for a pure academic to become an entrepeneur. Rarely do things work in business, the way they are supposed to, as presented in a classroom.

      I think it is just as difficult for us college-dropouts as it is for the pure academic to pull off.
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  • Profile picture of the author ghostrecon
    Strong academic ability (i.e. great knowledge of maths, science, history etc) isn't a necessity. Some of the richest people in the world never even went to college. Being an entrepreneur takes a certain creative attitude and a ferocity in taking risks.
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  • Profile picture of the author agababryn
    Academics train you to be a good employee other than an employer which is a character needed by an entrepreneur
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  • Profile picture of the author stevegilcrest
    Probably yes,
    Why because the intelligence depends on the Academics and marks obtained. How every some are genius thanks for the knowledge.
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  • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
    WHOA! Someone has too much time on their hands
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

      WHOA! Someone has too much time on their hands
      Yep, sure do. That's the benefit of being an Academic Entrepreneur.
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  • Profile picture of the author sam12six
    I'll always remember a line from the series Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman where Clark is trying is trying to convince Lois to continue pursuing a romantic relationship with him just after she discovers his dual life and is freaked out trying to reconcile the guy she's really falling in love with and the icon she's had a hero crush on.

    He says, "Superman is what I can do. Clark is who I am."

    Being recognized as an academic (by whatever standards the recognizing person is using) is about what someone has done - their education and occupation.

    Being a (successful) entrepreneur requires a certain mindset. It's more reliant on who you are.

    The two are not mutually exclusive, but being successful in either requires so much time and effort that someone being extremely successful in both worlds is a rare thing.

    Anyway, for my answer to the OP: No, most academics do not make good entrepreneurs, but neither do most of anyone else.
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  • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
    HA I LOVE it

    I post WHOA someone has too much time on their hands and 2 guys jump in with their edick measurements lol You people are fun to screw with
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

      HA I LOVE it

      I post WHOA someone has too much time on their hands and 2 guys jump in with their edick measurements lol You people are fun to screw with
      LMAO

      Never heard edick before.

      Oh, and those little smiley thingies usually mean that people are gagging with you.

      Don't give yourself too much credit.
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  • Profile picture of the author Stevie G
    Put it this way - the two biggest internet marketing companies in the world - Google and Facebook were both started in academia.

    And anyway what is your definition of 'academic' and 'entrepreneur'? Don't you stop being an academic the moment you become an entrpreneur and vice versa?

    Interesting question but I don't think it's that black and white - You get what you set your sights on and work towards, I don't think personality type really comes into it.
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  • Profile picture of the author RAGolko
    No, no no! No academic should every be allowed to become an entrepreneur. It defines the meaning of 'academic.' Us entrepreneurs need people like them to buy our great information products.
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  • Profile picture of the author Buddha94
    Academics are potential, actions are the end product. If academics make good entrepreneurs, then everyone with a degree is an entrepreneur.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    academically speaking its irrelevant...

    The true spirit of an entrepeuner is the willingness to take risks and live with the consequences. If your risk taking gene isnt turned on then you will struggle to create wealth (as opposed to just making money)

    Its incidently why the working class shoot themselves in the foot constantly, they dont seem to grasp that wealth is created from the top down. And without the wealth creaters (IE rich people) there is no money for the workers.
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    • Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      academically speaking its irrelevant...

      The true spirit of an entrepeuner is the willingness to take risks and live with the consequences. If your risk taking gene isnt turned on then you will struggle to create wealth (as opposed to just making money)

      Its incidently why the working class shoot themselves in the foot constantly, they dont seem to grasp that wealth is created from the top down. And without the wealth creaters (IE rich people) there is no money for the workers.
      I agree 100% with this!
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Okay - you don't like emotion - lets use some logic.

    95% of all people trying to make a living at IM fail. Are these people academics or just people who decided they want to run a business without any of the disciplines actually needed to do so? Would an academic not be able to use enough reason to know where their skill levels are concentrated and where they are weak? Is it the academics who decide to enter the field that have the highest statistics of failure? I can't prove that they aren't - but taking a look at the background of MANY who are doing well, I am seeing some higher educations at work.

    2. Impetus -- Just because there are more non-academics online than academics is no reason to feel they are less suited. That's faulty logic. For one thing there are fewer academics than non-academics per capita in the first place. Secondly, I suppose if your best alternatives are fast food and factory assembly lines you probably have a lot more impetus to get online than those who can have a comfortable living doing something they are really interested in working for someone else. They are usually treated much better by companies than the lower level staff, because they are usually harder to replace than the average working stiff. Sometimes their bosses don't even understand enough of the academic's expert field TO tell them how to do their work - just what they need to happen as a result of it. Working for someone else when you are expert in a field allows you to call more of the shots and is not as miserable as having a micro manager breathing down your neck all day.

    3. Did you stop to think that many of the accountants that do entrepreneur's books are often independent themselves? Some are just as much entrepreneurs as anyone else who has their own product and builds a business to sell it. They just offer services instead of products. . Where you see a difference between an entrepreneur and an independent accountant this is beyond me.

    4 - that crack about academics having "entitlement attitudes" is just plain emotional. Wanting, and expecting, work in a chosen field that you have spent much time preparing for is not an "entitlement attitude". If you see working years to prepare for something being an "entitlement attitude" - how do you see getting online with no education and expecting to have your own business as NOT being one? Double standards like this reveal a very strong animosity that you are denying, yet revealing at the same time.

    5. - Affiliate marketing is no more entrepreneurial than the brick and mortar field rep who works for a company. You work for the people who provide the products. Just because you pick your own hours and work online and may make your own website, doesn't make you a business owner -- you still have to follow that company's rules or they will get rid of you. If you can't tell the difference between business ownership and working for someone else, it's not a very good clue that you have any real concise idea of what you are talking about - just a concise attitude.

    6. Do you know what is involved with constructing a bachelor's, master's, or a doctorate thesis? Nobody tells you HOW to do anything. The only requirement is that you cover an idea that has either not been explored before or in a way that successfully refutes an established view. It takes entrepreneurial skills up the ying to do it. Yet people who have done so successfully are seen as being less capable of thinking from that mindset just because they have not chosen to follow suit in their career? Let me stress once more -- lack of impetus does NOT indicate lack of ability.

    -- For the person that asked people arguing in favor of academicians - where are YOUR stats? What exactly are the stats for percentage of failures at different education levels? Maybe we should get some stats that can be used for demographics. Oh, I'm not talking a silly WF poll. I'm talking about hiring a sociologist who would contract to do an actually scientifically valid data collection stream and analysis.

    We already have general stats - 95% failure rate. Since so few of those online are academicians - that means those that aren't, really have a HUGE percentage of failure, so maybe they aren't as entrepreneurial minded as some want to think. Unfortunately for the OP who wanted to hear logic instead of emotion -- that fact alone just blows your whole position right out of the water. Sorry - but you want logic, you might well understand the nature of the subject. Your argument is called a motus ponens argument. It's one of the simplest forms of invalid logical argument structures. Forgive me for sounding "emotional" before. I should have explained it a tad more professionally, I guess.

    So what would you do if every academician got online and started competing with you in business. You are looking at people who know how to analyze, synthesis, hypothesis. They are capable of learning new material with exceptional speed. They often are adept at writing reports to acquire funding - which puts them right up the alley for writing exceptional sales letters. They know how to reverse engineer other people's progression of action so they can develop new ways of doing things that are more efficient. They often have to have exceptional networking skills.

    You've seen what academicians have done on the net already - google, Facebook, skype and a myriad other programs and businesses that are rock solid.

    If academicians started looking at your business and decided to run you out of the market - How long do you think you'd last? I'm afraid you'd find you have greatly underestimated their creative and analytical abilities solely because of their scarcity.
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    • Profile picture of the author professorrosado
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      If academicians started looking at your business and decided to run you out of the market - How long do you think you'd last? I'm afraid you'd find you have greatly underestimated their creative and analytical abilities solely because of their scarcity.
      As I continually suffer personal attack and criticism from all sides because of my ingenuity! Some people don't like someone smarter than they. They are intimidated by someone able to out think and out perform them. They seem to think that just because they are unable to do what I do, that it means that I be nefarious to some degree!

      This is the contradiction that the illucidated face day to day by those who fancy themselves as knowledgeable.

      They will always find me a stumbling stone!

      (For those who don't follow - I speak in part on behalf of academia, truth and intelligence. The other part is my own reality.)
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        This point is more reflective of human nature and isn't confined to a specific background. Insecurity and envy happen at all levels.


        Originally Posted by professorrosado View Post

        As I continually suffer personal attack and criticism from all sides because of my ingenuity! Some people don't like someone smarter than they. They are intimidated by someone able to out think and out perform them. They seem to think that just because they are unable to do what I do, that it means that I be nefarious to some degree!

        This is the contradiction that the illucidated face day to day by those who fancy themselves as knowledgeable.

        They will always find me a stumbling stone!

        (For those who don't follow - I speak in part on behalf of academia, truth and intelligence. The other part is my own reality.)
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Re quoted from the OP...

      Now this is a general observation so if you have a masters and kicking butt, don't get p1ssed at my opinion, ok?

      I have found that it takes a unique attitude to make it as an entrepreneur. A sort of rebel / free spirit.

      Maybe it's why a lot of IT people fail at IM?

      Anyways, I'd really be interested in your views, where you've come from and what have you found your background to be a limiting factor?

      So do academics make good entrepreneurs? And what do you think makes one?



      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Okay - you don't like emotion - lets use some logic.

      95% of all people trying to make a living at IM fail. Are these people academics or just people who decided they want to run a business without any of the disciplines actually needed to do so? Would an academic not be able to use enough reason to know where their skill levels are concentrated and where they are weak? Is it the academics who decide to enter the field that have the highest statistics of failure? I can't prove that they aren't - but taking a look at the background of MANY who are doing well, I am seeing some higher educations at work.

      2. Impetus -- Just because there are more non-academics online than academics is no reason to feel they are less suited. That's faulty logic. For one thing there are fewer academics than non-academics per capita in the first place. Secondly, I suppose if your best alternatives are fast food and factory assembly lines you probably have a lot more impetus to get online than those who can have a comfortable living doing something they are really interested in working for someone else. They are usually treated much better by companies than the lower level staff, because they are usually harder to replace than the average working stiff. Sometimes their bosses don't even understand enough of the academic's expert field TO tell them how to do their work - just what they need to happen as a result of it. Working for someone else when you are expert in a field allows you to call more of the shots and is not as miserable as having a micro manager breathing down your neck all day.

      3. Did you stop to think that many of the accountants that do entrepreneur's books are often independent themselves? Some are just as much entrepreneurs as anyone else who has their own product and builds a business to sell it. They just offer services instead of products. . Where you see a difference between an entrepreneur and an independent accountant this is beyond me.

      4 - that crack about academics having "entitlement attitudes" is just plain emotional. Wanting, and expecting, work in a chosen field that you have spent much time preparing for is not an "entitlement attitude". If you see working years to prepare for something being an "entitlement attitude" - how do you see getting online with no education and expecting to have your own business as NOT being one? Double standards like this reveal a very strong animosity that you are denying, yet revealing at the same time.

      5. - Affiliate marketing is no more entrepreneurial than the brick and mortar field rep who works for a company. You work for the people who provide the products. Just because you pick your own hours and work online and may make your own website, doesn't make you a business owner -- you still have to follow that company's rules or they will get rid of you. If you can't tell the difference between business ownership and working for someone else, it's not a very good clue that you have any real concise idea of what you are talking about - just a concise attitude.

      6. Do you know what is involved with constructing a bachelor's, master's, or a doctorate thesis? Nobody tells you HOW to do anything. The only requirement is that you cover an idea that has either not been explored before or in a way that successfully refutes an established view. It takes entrepreneurial skills up the ying to do it. Yet people who have done so successfully are seen as being less capable of thinking from that mindset just because they have not chosen to follow suit in their career? Let me stress once more -- lack of impetus does NOT indicate lack of ability.

      -- For the person that asked people arguing in favor of academicians - where are YOUR stats? What exactly are the stats for percentage of failures at different education levels? Maybe we should get some stats that can be used for demographics. Oh, I'm not talking a silly WF poll. I'm talking about hiring a sociologist who would contract to do an actually scientifically valid data collection stream and analysis.

      We already have general stats - 95% failure rate. Since so few of those online are academicians - that means those that aren't, really have a HUGE percentage of failure, so maybe they aren't as entrepreneurial minded as some want to think. Unfortunately for the OP who wanted to hear logic instead of emotion -- that fact alone just blows your whole position right out of the water. Sorry - but you want logic, you might well understand the nature of the subject. Your argument is called a motus ponens argument. It's one of the simplest forms of invalid logical argument structures. Forgive me for sounding "emotional" before. I should have explained it a tad more professionally, I guess.

      So what would you do if every academician got online and started competing with you in business. You are looking at people who know how to analyze, synthesis, hypothesis. They are capable of learning new material with exceptional speed. They often are adept at writing reports to acquire funding - which puts them right up the alley for writing exceptional sales letters. They know how to reverse engineer other people's progression of action so they can develop new ways of doing things that are more efficient. They often have to have exceptional networking skills.

      You've seen what academicians have done on the net already - google, Facebook, skype and a myriad other programs and businesses that are rock solid.

      If academicians started looking at your business and decided to run you out of the market - How long do you think you'd last? I'm afraid you'd find you have greatly underestimated their creative and analytical abilities solely because of their scarcity.
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      • Profile picture of the author Terry Coombes
        Some simple working definitions (via Google):

        Academics - the people who teach and undertake research at a university.
        An Entrepreneur - someone who organizes a business venture and assumes the risk for it.

        It really doesn't matter what the exact definitions are, provided everyone's talking about the same thing, which isn't the case in this thread. There are wildly differing views as to what qualifies someone as an academic, with only slightly more agreement on what makes an entrepreneur.

        It's a pity that it's generated such a lot of emotive language and polarized views.

        To answer the question: In my experience, as both a former academic and (offline) entrepreneur, I can say that no, I didn't make a good entrepreneur. And I have to say that very few of my academic colleagues would have made good entrepreneurs, either. That's no slur on them. They were good academics.

        However, I'm back for another go at being a good entrepreneur, so maybe the answer depends on how many attempts we're allowed before judgement's made.

        I Think,

        Terry
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Very nice post, Terry. And I wish you the very best.

          Originally Posted by Terry Coombes View Post

          It really doesn't matter what the exact definitions are, provided everyone's talking about the same thing, which isn't the case in this thread. There are wildly differing views as to what qualifies someone as an academic, with only slightly more agreement on what makes an entrepreneur.
          This has turned out to be so, indeed.

          I knew there'd be very little consensus about what an "academic" is, but I naively thought there'd be almost complete agreement about what an "entrepreneur" is. The thread became even more chaotic than I expected. :p
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          • Profile picture of the author Terry Coombes
            Thanks Alexa. I think many people play down the "risk" part of being an entrepreneur, which, of course is essential. No risk = No entrepreneur.

            Regards,

            Terry
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          Thanks for sharing, Terry.

          Can you please share why this was the case or what you think was the case?

          Is it because of a set mind and approach to things... ie: programmed to respond / act in a certain way?

          Is it because of a belief system such as being averse to selling or even a lack of self belief that you weren't worthy of charging a fee for your product?

          I know that coming from an employee environment, I struggled at the start also because I was carrying too much job baggage. I also struggled with guilt when it came to working from home.

          Please feel free to elaborate.

          Best,

          Sal



          Originally Posted by Terry Coombes View Post

          Some simple working definitions (via Google):

          Academics - the people who teach and undertake research at a university.
          An Entrepreneur - someone who organizes a business venture and assumes the risk for it.

          It really doesn't matter what the exact definitions are, provided everyone's talking about the same thing, which isn't the case in this thread. There are wildly differing views as to what qualifies someone as an academic, with only slightly more agreement on what makes an entrepreneur.

          It's a pity that it's generated such a lot of emotive language and polarized views.

          To answer the question: In my experience, as both a former academic and (offline) entrepreneur, I can say that no, I didn't make a good entrepreneur. And I have to say that very few of my academic colleagues would have made good entrepreneurs, either. That's no slur on them. They were good academics.

          However, I'm back for another go at being a good entrepreneur, so maybe the answer depends on how many attempts we're allowed before judgement's made.

          I Think,

          Terry
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          • Profile picture of the author Terry Coombes
            Hi Sal,

            I think, in my case, I've always had this "can-do" thing somewhere inside me and it's mostly been a good guide. As I went through my working life, I usually managed to shine, in a small way, in most things I did. I've also long had a built-in "need" to have a business, it didn't matter what, although manufacturing appealed to me. That wasn't what I did in the end - it was B+M retail that killed me.

            So going into a retail environment, I suppose, in the back of my mind was, "How difficult can this be, compared to anything else I've done?" I visualized, planned, wrote persuasive letters to the relevant people and set off...

            I think the timing was unfortunate, given how the economy went, but I don't blame that, or anyone else, for what happens to me in life - every decision is my own, and I make plenty of wrong ones - and pay for them!

            So, I think it's built in to me to at least want to be an entrepreneur, even if it doesn't translate into success (It Will, It Will). I think that desire was something I didn't see in most of my colleagues, so they had no reason to become entrepreneurs - they weren't drawn to it.

            I don't think there are any hang-ups regarding selling, setting prices/fees, or whatever. For me, now, it's finding the right direction and, as you can see from my (recent) photo, I'm time-limited.

            Funny thing is, whatever life throws at me, I cannot believe that the day won't come when I'm a multi-millionaire.

            We'll see...

            This is a great thread, Sal - I'll bet you didn't expect such a response when you posted. And it looks like it could run and run.

            Regards,

            Terry

            Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

            Thanks for sharing, Terry.

            Can you please share why this was the case or what you think was the case?

            Is it because of a set mind and approach to things... ie: programmed to respond / act in a certain way?

            Is it because of a belief system such as being averse to selling or even a lack of self belief that you weren't worthy of charging a fee for your product?

            I know that coming from an employee environment, I struggled at the start also because I was carrying too much job baggage. I also struggled with guilt when it came to working from home.

            Please feel free to elaborate.

            Best,

            Sal
            Signature


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    • Profile picture of the author Henry White
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      ...

      So what would you do if every academician got online and started competing with you in business. You are looking at people who know how to analyze, synthesis, hypothesis. They are capable of learning new material with exceptional speed. They often are adept at writing reports to acquire funding - which puts them right up the alley for writing exceptional sales letters. They know how to reverse engineer other people's progression of action so they can develop new ways of doing things that are more efficient. They often have to have exceptional networking skills.

      ...
      Well, first and foremost, I think the learning curve would discourage most them.

      Essentially, I agree with everything else you wrote, but I have to take exception to this (bolded by me).

      Writing a research grant for foundations is completely different from writing a business plan for bankers, making a presentation to venture capitalists, or - eventually for a few of us - the prospectus for an IPO:
      the audience, scope and content, detail, yada-yada-yada.

      Foundations are predisposed to getting the best advance in knowledge;
      bankers on security; VC on maximum ROI - up to and including throwing you under the bus ASAP, bringing in their own team, and effectively taking over your company; stockholders generally high dividends or long-term growth, preferably both.

      In my experience, academics revert to how they handled their dissertation eons before - with all the procrastination, doubt and fear, agonizing for weeks and months; not the happiest or most pleasant people to be around.

      Most good academic writing, IMNSHO, begins with a reason, often something like: "I wrote this book because I wanted to know more about ____"; and ends with an invitation and suggestions for additional research. Whether it's accessible to the general public is another matter entirely - which simply won't work in IM.
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        I have to confess - at the risk of being torched - that almost 98% of writers and copywriters I have outsourced to, which boast degrees etc, have pretty much been a failure.

        Direct response is a different dynamic as you rightly point out.

        Frankly, if they were my competitors, I'd dominate my market.

        The reality for me has shown that it is difficult for whatever reasons for them to write content on a basic level (so a grade 6 can understand it). Maybe it's ego or maybe they only see it through their eye.

        As for sales copy, I think they wrote with logic and not emotion. Once again, this may be ingrained training, or a particular personality type. I am merely speculating here.

        I consider myself pretty sharp and have a 25 year history in top level sales. Yet my first attempts at copy really sucked. it took me over 6 years to get it to the level that it is today.

        To state that they would make great copy writers straight off the bat is a furphy.


        Originally Posted by hwhite View Post

        Well, first and foremost, I think the learning curve would discourage most them.

        Essentially, I agree with everything else you wrote, but I have to take exception to this (bolded by me).

        Writing a research grant for foundations is completely different from writing a business plan for bankers, making a presentation to venture capitalists, or - eventually for a few of us - the prospectus for an IPO:
        the audience, scope and content, detail, yada-yada-yada.

        Foundations are predisposed to getting the best advance in knowledge;
        bankers on security; VC on maximum ROI - up to and including throwing you under the bus ASAP, bringing in their own team, and effectively taking over your company; stockholders generally high dividends or long-term growth, preferably both.

        In my experience, academics revert to how they handled their dissertation eons before - with all the procrastination, doubt and fear, agonizing for weeks and months; not the happiest or most pleasant people to be around.

        Most good academic writing, IMNSHO, begins with a reason, often something like: "I wrote this book because I wanted to know more about ____"; and ends with an invitation and suggestions for additional research. Whether it's accessible to the general public is another matter entirely - which simply won't work in IM.
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  • Profile picture of the author jtimes
    Some great advice I recieved when I first started in IM-KISS

    Keep It Super Simple!

    Dont try to reinvent the wheel and dont put to much thought into it, just ACTION!
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by jtimes View Post

      Keep It Super Simple!

      I understood the acronym KISS to be a similar message, but not as targeted to the academic demographic.
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    • Profile picture of the author Matt Daniel
      Originally Posted by jtimes View Post

      Some great advice I recieved when I first started in IM-KISS

      Keep It Super Simple!

      Dont try to reinvent the wheel and dont put to much thought into it, just ACTION!
      I strongly agree with this
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  • Profile picture of the author IronRing
    Banned
    I'd say if the person is more pragmatic than just about theory, then he's much more likely to succeed
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  • Profile picture of the author EricMN
    This is a 'It depends' sort of question. What sort of academic is it? Here's the downside to -some- academics. Many of them spend their entire lives in school and are groomed from a general knowledge to a very specific mindset. Whereas someone in their freshman year of university may have a superb general knowledge of the sciences, a PhD+10 professional years in a field doesn't give you much time to deal with other topics -- especially if you want to be at the head of the curve. This means a very narrow perspective.

    On the other hand. These individuals also lead their own research teams, apply for grants, manage finances and attend conferences worldwide promoting their research and bringing brand new ideas to the table in their fields.

    In essence, they have all the tools necessary, but I don't think academics are any different from others in that if you have an entrepreneur mindset, then you can be one. If you dont, then sorry.
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  • Profile picture of the author IronRing
    Banned
    Also entrepreneurship requires a lot of street smarts and business sense / interpersonal skills, which aren't taught in a classroom
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  • Profile picture of the author JamesGw
    I'm not sure how you define an academic, but being properly educated will afford you a huge benefit in the marketing world.

    If you go through school to actually learn and understand the analytical process (as opposed to just rehashing what is said in order to get a good grade), then you can most certainly apply this to your business. Being able to understand why things are happening is hugely beneficial. Granted, intelligent people can do this whether they're educated or not, but being educated will help more than it hurts.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sandra Martinez
    Well, I was academic - have a master on physics - and have been online since 2003.

    I don´t have a day job and feed my babies only with this. Not rich, and most of my income is service, but still happy.

    Was it tougher for me than for non academics? it was tough, but not sure the academics played such a role. My issues with IM as it is were:

    - most of the money is expended in stupid things that ravage the environment and are actually not good for the person buying, so it took me a while to find a niche I am comfortable with.

    - most of the methods taught are spammy and parasitical of other sites. So I had to find my own way to take traffic to my sites that feel right and actually compete with the other guys who don´t have my sissy limitations.

    about other academics... I don´t know. There are different breeds - at least in physics - some might kick butts if they wanted, some others might not make it.

    also consider that real academics have an "Open source" type of mentality, switching "service to humanity" mentality for a "service to self" one is tough as touches the core of the beliefs system.

    just my 1.5 cents...

    Sandra
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  • Profile picture of the author InterMG
    Nope, I am no academic smartie, but I am already earning quite a lot from this game.
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  • Profile picture of the author YasirYar
    I have an MBA degree but whatever I learnt in business school has already been forgotten..

    Now I am not saying that MBA is not helpful, its just that in class they teach theories which cant really be applied by most people in the real world.

    Business school does not teach you to try new stuff.. they do not increase your creativity.. it just helps you in your presentation skills.

    Has education helped me? Sure.

    Has it facilitated me in starting my business or becoming a better business person? Not really..
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by YasirYar View Post

      I have an MBA degree but whatever I learnt in business school has already been forgotten..

      Now I am not saying that MBA is not helpful, its just that in class they teach theories which cant really be applied by most people in the real world.

      Business school does not teach you to try new stuff.. they do not increase your creativity.. it just helps you in your presentation skills.

      Has education helped me? Sure.

      Has it facilitated me in starting my business or becoming a better business person? Not really..

      I consider the best advantage of a MBA is the credibility that it offers to investors.

      If I wanted to raise private investor capital to accelerate the growth of one of my operations, they probably would not invest in me, because I don't have the degree on my wall to show that I really know what I am doing.

      The investor would only support my enterprise if I agreed to bring in a MBA to manage me.

      However, in the same conversation, people would throw their money at you, because you have the paper on the wall.

      Is it fair? It doesn't matter, because that is the way things are, whether we think it is fair or not.
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      • Profile picture of the author YasirYar
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        I consider the best advantage of a MBA is the credibility that it offers to investors.

        If I wanted to raise private investor capital to accelerate the growth of one of my operations, they probably would not invest in me, because I don't have the paper on my wall to show that I really know what I am doing.

        The investor would only support my enterprise if I agreed to bring in a MBA to manage me.

        However, in the same conversation, people would throw their money at you, because you have the paper on the wall.

        Is it fair? It doesn't matter, because that is the way things are, whether we think it is fair or not.
        Yea I guess it does offer you added credibility.. I have that paper hanging on my wall in my office
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    I think it does help to be focused on the subject, but then again some of our best businessmen didn't graduate college
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Some interesting discussion in here, and it hasn't gotten too out of hand, for the most part.

    It's a bit off-topic but I saw some confidently say that education isn't tied to income level and it really piqued my interest as to if I was just believing a myth or not.

    So, I found a US Census report from about 9 years ago I think, that said those with more education DO make more money.

    I also found an interesting graph that can be a bit confusing but infers that "probably" people who are higher educated make more money:

    Infographic of the Day: Do Smarter People Make More Money? | Co. Design

    Also, there's quite a fascinating article, I would say, about how some believe the "education bubble" will burst just like the dotcom and housing bubbles did.

    Quite interesting stuff if you have the time:

    Higher education: The latest bubble? | The Economist

    Raises all sorts of questions but perhaps that's better left for another discussion.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      As interesting as these figures are - and I thank you for posting them - surely it's not a black and white situation.

      Firstly, how do we define education? I consider myself very well educated, but do not have a degree or MBA etc.

      Secondly, my wife has a degree in criminology which she never used, so her income would probably be lower than what she makes in the corporate world.

      And what about tradespeople? Usually drop outs at 17 years old to do an apprenticeship... but now commanding $150K + per year.

      It's off-topic, but an interesting discussion.




      Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

      Some interesting discussion in here, and it hasn't gotten too out of hand, for the most part.

      It's a bit off-topic but I saw some confidently say that education isn't tied to income level and it really piqued my interest as to if I was just believing a myth or not.

      So, I found a US Census report from about 9 years ago I think, that said those with more education DO make more money.

      I also found an interesting graph that can be a bit confusing but infers that "probably" people who are higher educated make more money:

      Infographic of the Day: Do Smarter People Make More Money? | Co. Design

      Also, there's quite a fascinating article, I would say, about how some believe the "education bubble" will burst just like the dotcom and housing bubbles did.

      Quite interesting stuff if you have the time:

      Higher education: The latest bubble? | The Economist

      Raises all sorts of questions but perhaps that's better left for another discussion.
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    redicelander...no argument intended, but...

    What truly constitutes the definition of an education?...think about it.

    In my personal experience, be it a rare case or not I don't know, that was the exact opposite of what I lived. In fact, after the housing market crash, and this lovely economy spin, I was looking at average earning of lawyers, professional business majors, etc...many of them had huge debts to re-pay for their educations, and they averaged like $60k per year across the board. I ask You; "Is $60k per year constituted as real money or silent sophisticated slavery?"

    I made on average $100k per year for 15 years, and I'll tell you with 3 kids, a morgage, insurances, phones, a business, ...you see where this is going. I had no time, and looking back, even $100k wasn't enough to be remotely free in the best sense of the word. Mind you, had I took a course on financial planning...or money management, I'd likely be retired at 39 today.

    Honestly, I only have an 8th grade education and have nothing against academics, in fact, I sincerely encourage learning in all aspects of life.

    However, I found it amusing, and quite inspiring actually to learn that Eben Pagan was initially a high school drop-out, and a college drop-out, yet has been invited to speak to aspiring entrepreneurs at well known colleges...LOL (*Let alone that he's sold over $100 Million in 'info products' in roughly 10 years)

    He also theorizes that "WE" the independent information providers, marketer's and smaller then college(s) are providers of open source and free source information. Hence, entrepreneurs can experience exponential growth by capitalizing, providing, and creating information products from the huge gaps caused by the rate and ever-growing independent niches NOT covered in any formal academic arena...thanks to the internet, and "How" we now transfer and acquire our information.

    Personally, I think the colleges are facing a huge challenge to keep up with the rate in which we are prepared to absorb intelligence. So much as to say; "It could be intentional to a DEGREE to stall the general publics growth as a measure of conformity, control, power, and greed.

    Gimme a break, they hand out student loans today in similar accord to the previous morgage loans, insurance scandal's, and wall street...it almost appears the academic area will be bankrupt next!

    There too, I don't believe it's a matter of "How" you acquire the knowledge...it's what you do with it after you acquire it.

    How many times have we all read these line; "TAKE ACTION".."APPLY WHAT YOU"VE LEARNED"...and might I add; "SCALE UP" (or EXPAND UPON".

    In many cases, You can teach a parrot to recite words, even sentences...yet it is not necessarily a true form of intelligence, but rather a mockery of a true (or greater) intelligence.

    Sadly, many (not all) 'students' (and people alike) don't grasp the concept of of applied learning, whereby the objective is to "EXPAND" upon the knowledge and bring forth greater intelligence.

    As I just wrote on one of my many articles earlier this week..."You Are Only As Smart As The Tools You Acquire, But the Key Is How Sharp You Are Using Them!"

    ...not my best metaphor, yet befitting to this thread none-the-less.

    I read another one that said..."A Formal Education Can Earn You A Decent Living...Self-Educating Can Earn You A Fortune" <---I think was actually in a Warrior's signature somewhere.

    Besides, the more I learn, the more ignorant everything appears...a war I cannot win!

    For the record, I too quietly earned $100k per year for nearly 15 years as a 'smart' laborer/artisan - building pools, fountains, waterfalls, with my 8th grade education.

    Often my clients called on me for answers, as they held both degree's in business, and in the construction industry, and still I saw what they couldn't.

    Yet, I was too blind to see how greedy they were, and just how fragile the housing market really was, and as a result...fell flat on my face!

    2.5 years now at a $10 per hour job...now that's an education in itself. I have learned all about sophisticated slavery, control, power, and conformity...none of which am I a big fan!

    Point being, I often questioned..."Should I have Gone to College?" and to this day, I believe to be too diversified to fit in any one category college offers, thus "IM" here for one thing, and one thing only....educational interests, and the posterity and prosperity therein, and thereof!

    While I am NOT religious by ant means I am highly spiritual indeed. I once had a pastor ask me; "Why don't you pray for prosperity?"(<--- he "meant" money!)

    I answered; "Simple, because I pray for understanding, knowledge, and wisdom...and with that; all else will be revealed, and fall under!"

    Besides, if I were God, which believe you me; I am NOT, nor claiming to be - How would I feel about my creation denouncing the intelligence I gave them, and instead was belly-aching about the infamous "I need's, I want's, I gotta Have's"...when all that takes a back seat to wisdom when you can see what raw intelligence/experience delivers.

    To each her/his own..."do what you love, love what you do, and strive to expand on all of it!"

    Now if only I could quit smoking, and curb my insomnia, life would be perfect...

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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Art, don't think I have the energy to respond to all that, ha ha.

    Nicely done.

    I was just interested in the actual statistics as a previous poster appeared to blow it out of the water with his confidence that education no longer correlated with earning potential but I don't know if he has stats to prove this.

    However, I agree, that any true entrepreneur can have much higher income potential than the average person with a Ph.D. even if this entrepreneur has no high school education, at all.

    I think that's also pretty awesome.

    I do think that people like you are the exception rather than the rule, however.

    I think anyone with a true entrepreneur mindset will not stop until they succeed and the education level of true entrepreneur's may have very little affect on true earning potential. Fair enough?

    I was just interested in the averages and the averages say "more education = more earnings" over a lifetime.

    However, though, you raise a good point at what is true wealth, and I think many who have great salaries and jobs are worse off than a homeless person in the sense they may have more debt. It's one reason I'm a proponent of finding a great place to RENT. Houses are great assets except for when you can't sell them! My parents have tried to sell their house for 10 years with no success. True freedom? I think not.

    Anyway I think I'm getting a little off topic, here...
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  • Profile picture of the author Coach Louisa
    Things work slightly differently online than in the academic world. If the academicians are willing to be open and adapt, I am sure they can succeed too. Can't make general statement here, I know of quite a few learned men who are great IMers
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    While it was late, (or early really) when I replied to this thread, I got a few Z's and wanted to clarify; I remain neutral as to whether or not academics formulates a mandatory ingredient to become a good entrepreneur?

    *Academics in itself is merely an institutionalized version of obtaining an education, whereby, any other means or to 'self-educate' often appears to hold far less value in the eyes of employer.

    In my experience, many employer's generally do not 'mesh well' with those of use who maintain an entrepreneurial drive, and who are self-educated and driving to reach a higher level of success.

    Whether it's their level of complacency, the threat of suggestive "outside" the box thinking, or simple a silent threat...not one employer in my past seemed to appreciate the 'vision' for growth I brought to the table.

    Much of the time, it was my intention to point out areas of weakness, whereby my vision had the potential to be of benefit to my employer, the end user (the consumer), and went way beyond the duties I was paid for as an employee. *I watched companies waste tons of money, being non-productive, and though I can't prove it; it seems common people are set in their ways, and will not readily accept the rate in which change really occurs.

    Hence a large portion of militant and formerly trained individuals are all-to-often infused with a clouded mindset, a one-track mind, and fail to accept a less bias, and more broad vision for success can be reached through a unified effort, as opposed to this robotic behavior many employ after wielding academic degrees.

    In short, I hate prejudice in all forms as it is the root of evil, and more often than not society dictates that a formerly educated individual holds more value then that of a person who learns in the trenches of life itself.

    While, I haven't found any solid statistics, there was a similar post written on another blog that was a decent read.

    The first 2-3 paragraphs were interesting to know...you can read more @ Do entrepreneurs need education? | Entrepreneurial

    *No affiliation to the site.

    Definitely, some notable mentions of some big players in the internet, advertising, and music Fortune 500 elite class.

    redicelander...for the record, I just wanted to clarify, my initial post wasn't meant to be aimed solely at your post directly. Immediately after I initially posted my 2 cents, I noticed your post and attempted a quick edit and added a bit at the top.

    I have seriously weighed the option to attending FullSail University to pursue my interests regarding online marketing, as I am only 6 months into this endeavor.

    But again, the ability to source information, and remain diversified in this new learning curve, I personally cannot justify the value in paying for college.

    Especially, while it systematically appears to cost a great deal of money, and essentially puts limitations and time restraints on my goal of obtaining knowledge in several aspects of marketing, psychology, web design, philosophy, artwork, writing, and business in general

    Much of that which is taught in the academic arena is to some degree "narrowed" down to a specific or targeted niche, and as such can be great if you intend to sell one service, one product, or master one aspect of any field of study.

    Now, if I were to consider college, I would need to spend twenty years and likely 100's of thousands of dollars to pursue my real interests:

    • Psychology, human behavior, and mindset
    • Marketing Methods (too many to list)
    • Business: Develoment & Innovation, Management, Ownership, etc..
    • Artwork, Design, Sketch, Layout, and Construction
    • Literature: Copywriting, poetry, documentation, journalism, copyrighting, article submission, syndication, and publication
    • Webmastering: design, layout, XHTML, HTML, CSS, PHP, etc..
    • Philosophy: Perception, Influences, Metaphysics, Spirituality, and our ability to measure our significance, purpose, and chief aim as a whole, and individually
    • Social Media, Networking, and Unifying Resources
    • Sales: Direct, Drop-ship, affiliate marketing, etc...
    • Mathematics: Probabilities, Statistical Calculations, Measurements, and all that factors into the equation of creating calculated risk
    • History, and the acquisition of expansion upon the documented knowledge of those before us
    • Sciences...the separating of theory to factual data, in an effort to expand upon the unknown mysteries that we all encounter in this existence. It seems there is a 'proven' science to all the above.
    Truthfully, I would need 2 maybe 3 lifetimes, and boatloads of money to pay for the above interests, and I didn't even drill down or target specific 'sub-categories' within all the subjects of my passion.

    Perhaps, this is "How" so many of us experience information overload.

    I am guilty of wanting to know everything above, and sadly I must settle for acquiring pieces of them all while maintaining the knowledge to know that each subject shares a similar tongue and compliments the other.

    Hence "The Writing Is On The Wall"

    In the pursuit of knowledge the 'unknown' has and will always expose our ignorance, for we have barely scratched the surface of obtaining any true wisdom.

    Academically, Mathematically, Spiritually, Metaphysically, Socially, or even Socioeconomically, we are all challenged to accept our true ignorance, fear, and limitations.

    Having a college degree is and can be a powerful leverage tool in the JOB market, but in the eyes of the many successful entrepreneurs it can also be viewed as a stepping stone or even a road block, as a form of complacency, limiting ones 'vision' to expand beyond the traditional mannerisms in which we conduct ourselves in the pursuit of knowledge.

    People pay for free information everyday...less it be we wouldn't have seen such growth online.

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    • Profile picture of the author professorrosado
      Originally Posted by art72 View Post

      Having a college degree is and can be a powerful leverage tool in the JOB market, but in the eyes of the many successful entrepreneurs it can also be viewed as a stepping stone or even a road block, as a form of complacency, limiting ones 'vision' to expand beyond the traditional mannerisms in which we conduct ourselves in the pursuit of knowledge.
      Art
      This is because of the widespread abandonment of classical education which once afforded many with the wherewithal to solve problems and progress. Now colleges are nothing more than inflated and boastful job training programs - and their product: a lot of prideful, obnoxious and narrow-minded pseudo intellectuals who go around preaching open-mindedness with myopic profundity.

      Not the stuff of the true entrepreneur at any level of education!
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      • Profile picture of the author Henry White
        Originally Posted by professorrosado View Post

        This is because of the widespread abandonment of classical education which once afforded many with the wherewithal to solve problems and progress. Now colleges are nothing more than inflated and boastful job training programs - and their product: a lot of prideful, obnoxious and narrow-minded pseudo intellectuals who go around preaching open-mindedness with myopic profundity.

        Not the stuff of the true entrepreneur at any level of education!
        That's why I never pass up an opportunity to talk with students!
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Hey Mike,

      Firstly, I trust you got my PM and apology for my comments.

      Secondly, I pretty much understand and agree with your comments.
      Especially the point that IM'rs fail due to a lack of management skills. This is so true, and I suspect that it's also partly due to how they stumble across the industry - usually by some guru telling them that any dumbed-down-dodo can do this stuff.

      After all, why go to all the trouble to start a real business and all the responsibility it involves, when you can simply sit around the kitchen table in your underwear and rake in a six figure income, right?

      Hence why most of my products contain a massive amount of strategic and business information.

      I cannot speak for others, but I certainly wasn't out to bash people who have educations.

      It's a free world and people make their own choices.

      My personal view is that if my kids asked me about investing a few hundred K's into a Uni degree... I'd tell them to buy a house. But that's me.

      Much of what we have seen here is subjective opinion based on preconceived perceptions and the cards have fallen according to which side of the street people belong to.

      Once again, generally speaking, I have coached people from all walks of life about writing and publishing a book.

      Teachers, Doctors, Programmers never seemed to get it done and were usually the first to drop out.

      Hence the question. Not sure why this happened. But I suspect that the paradigm shift from going from academic / professional to marketer etc was too much behavioural change.

      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      I'm re-quoting the OP as this seems to be turning into an anti-education thread, as similar threads always do. I know the OP tried to "Clarify" his thoughts later, but what polarized this discussion was the original post.



      Of course not, but, you're not going to find any idiots succeeding at it either.

      And at this point, you're referring to making it online, not anything to do with being an entrepreneur until your last sentence.



      I highlighted the phrase "More Academic", which I took to mean those who focus more on the education side of their careers. Combined with your reference to "the Smarter you are", stop and think about that for a moment.

      Someone with a solid education, "Smarter" than normal, isn't going to jump in blindly and follow the path most other IM'ers do. I think Hey Sal explained why in great detail and was spot on.

      Those folks are going to take one look at an IM sales page and laugh...sure, they'll recognize that it will sell to a certain group of people, but they won't buy into it.

      What they will do is study, analyze and plan - yes, that's "Slower" than what many of those in IM do, but at the end of the day, they will come out ahead on a far greater scale.



      I don't see anyone really getting pissed off - I do sense a lot of frustration from those of us with the educational background reading what the anti-education side is saying.

      Comments like "Academics are robots", pretty much says it all about their closed off worldview.

      The Internet itself was created by Academics...think about that. The Web as we know it, was created by an Academic (Tim Berners-Lee).

      Virtually every advanced technology got it's start in the Academic world or by those who were a part of it. That is still true today more than ever.



      Yes - it's one that says, "I'm not afraid to fail, but I am afraid of not trying!"



      I believe the reason most IM'ers fail is because that lack a background in management - they don't know how to start and grow a business online or off. They don't have the education, the skill set required and so they tend to buy up info products like crazy to educate themselves.

      To the best of my knowledge, their is only one "True" entrepreneur on this forum. That would be Allen Says, the owner. There are many of us who have earned millions online and helped others reach their goals, but I can't think of a single person in IM that has made it the way Allen has.



      My background is what gave me the edge to be where I am today. I'm a former US Marine, which is where I learned never to give up - that I could do anything. It's where my BIG Ego comes from.

      I've earned 3 degrees (Engineering, BS, Computer Science, MS and Education, MS) and am involved Doctoral research now in Computer Science.

      I retired at age 39 from my professional career - and started online at age 40. Within 6 months I had earned $80K - all before I was familiar with the term Internet Marketing. That was ten years ago - it's gotten a little better since then, LOL.

      I own several companies offline and on - including a private EFL school (my wife's passion is teaching). By all the definitions I've read, I guess that makes me an Entrepreneur.



      As I've said and Hey Sal went into great detail about, I believe there is far more potential for an Academic to succeed online than the average person.

      There is certainly no one in IM (entrepreneurs or not) today that can even be remotely compared to the success stories of Entrepreneurs like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, The Google Boys, Zuckerburg (sp?), etc., etc. - virtually every hi-tech company out there was started by someone with some kind of related Academic background.

      But, at the end of the day, it boils down to a lot of different factors including personal qualities...which is why so many people fail in IM or as Entrepreneurs.

      Personally, if I had a choice between partnering with an Academic versus a non-Academic, I'd choose the Academic - because I understand the education, work ethic and thought process that person would come with.



      I can only speak from my own experience - what has enabled me to succeed online (in no particular order):

      1. Education, especially technology related.
      2. Management experience at the executive level.
      3. Research and project management background (mutli-million dollar projects).
      4. Willingness to take calculated risks (Risk Management).
      5. Persona qualities or mindset that doesn't allow room for failure.
      6. Financial resources to commit to ideas.
      7. Finding and partnering with several very talented people.
      8. A very BIG Ego...

      Without items 1 through 3, I would most likely be muddling through making a few bucks here and there like most Internet Marketers.

      I recognized a long time ago that my unique combination of education, experience and drive (typical A type personality), gave me an edge. I've used it to start a number of very successful ventures that have become increasingly profitable over the long-term.

      It's also what gives me the luxury of having to spend whatever time I want in this forum or elsewhere. And to pursue my personal interests as I choose to.

      I know a lot of good people here in this forum and elsewhere online pursuing IM or some kind of business activity. Unfortunately they're seemingly trapped into a mindset of earning $10K a day and follow so called gurus posing in front of parked jets or sports cars.

      I spend a lot of time helping them and my goal is to change their mindsets to thinking far bigger than a measly $10K a day or a month. And especially stop thinking about overnight success - to focus on the long-term success they can more realistically achieve.

      I've said my piece - your PM'ed apology is accepted Sal and no hard feelings on my side.
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    • Profile picture of the author azmanar
      Hi,

      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post


      My background is what gave me the edge to be where I am today. I'm a former US Marine, which is where I learned never to give up - that I could do anything. It's where my BIG Ego comes from.
      I can't seem to notice the ego part at all from most of your posts in WF.

      This is a quote from Socrates
      " The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance. ".

      And a quote from Plato
      " A good decision is based on knowledge and not on numbers. ".

      And Aristotle said
      " Education is the best provision for old age.".

      Sir Francis Drake said
      "Knowledge is Power.".
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        ... and Sal64 said:

        Knowledge is useless unless applied. The real power is in the actioning of knowledge.



        Originally Posted by azmanar View Post

        Hi,



        I can't seem to notice the ego part at all from most of your posts in WF.

        This is a quote from Socrates
        " The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance. ".

        And a quote from Plato
        " A good decision is based on knowledge and not on numbers. ".

        And Aristotle said
        " Education is the best provision for old age.".

        Sir Francis Drake said
        "Knowledge is Power.".
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        • Profile picture of the author azmanar
          lol .... so now Sal thinks he is greater than the Greatest Minds of the world about knowledge ... :p

          That means, my opinion and everyone else's in this thread aren't even worth a penny to you.

          So my answer to you is this ancient one :

          " Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. "
          Confucius

          And this modern one :

          "Today knowledge has power. It controls access to opportunity and advancement."
          Peter Drucker

          And these :

          " Information is not knowledge. "
          Albert Einstein

          " An investment in knowledge pays the best interest. "
          Benjamin Franklin

          " The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is a knowledge of our own ignorance. "
          Benjamin Franklin

          " Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge. "
          Lao Tzu

          " Knowledge rests not upon truth alone, but upon error also. "
          Carl Jung

          " The goal of education is the advancement of knowledge and the dissemination of truth. "
          John F. Kennedy

          And I think you are referring to these :

          " A little knowledge that acts is worth infinitely more than much knowledge that is idle. "
          Khalil Gibran

          " The only real security that a man can have in this world is a reserve of knowledge, experience and ability. "
          Henry Ford

          " Knowledge has to be improved, challenged, and increased constantly, or it vanishes. "
          Peter Drucker

          And the greatest action taker in the world said :
          " I am indebted to my father for living, but to my teacher for living well. "
          Alexander the Great

          " I had rather excel others in the knowledge of what is excellent, than in the extent of my power and dominion. "
          Alexander the Great

          And finally Sal, you are just a guy who has an opinion. That's all.
          ... just like me.

          The difference is, I have respect towards knowledge and academicians.. :p
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          • Profile picture of the author sal64
            Yes, but what did these guys know about Internet Marketing?
            I seriously hope you don't take these comments seriously. That's what I post smiley faces.

            It's not about disrespect for anyone. From my perspective, life can be taken away at any moment, so I try to not take things too seriously.

            You can pull out as many quotes as you wish. It doesn't mean anything unless you use that knowledge to better yourself.

            And frankly, am I not worthy of being quoted? Am I not entitled to espouse my wisdom, just these others have? Or do I need to be dead and have a PHD?

            To firstly assume that the opinions mean nothing and secondly to assume that I have no respect for knowledge or academics is disingenuous to say the least.

            The difference as you put it, is that I have a less serious approach to life these days. A perspective which can only be gained by looking death in the eye and staring him down.


            Originally Posted by azmanar View Post

            lol .... so now Sal thinks he is greater than the Greatest Minds of the world about knowledge ... :p

            That means, my opinion and everyone else's in this thread aren't even worth a penny to you.

            So my answer to you is this ancient one :

            " Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. "
            Confucius

            And this modern one :

            "Today knowledge has power. It controls access to opportunity and advancement."
            Peter Drucker

            And these :

            " Information is not knowledge. "
            Albert Einstein

            " An investment in knowledge pays the best interest. "
            Benjamin Franklin

            " The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is a knowledge of our own ignorance. "
            Benjamin Franklin

            " Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge. "
            Lao Tzu

            " Knowledge rests not upon truth alone, but upon error also. "
            Carl Jung

            " The goal of education is the advancement of knowledge and the dissemination of truth. "
            John F. Kennedy

            And I think you are referring to these :

            " A little knowledge that acts is worth infinitely more than much knowledge that is idle. "
            Khalil Gibran

            " The only real security that a man can have in this world is a reserve of knowledge, experience and ability. "
            Henry Ford

            " Knowledge has to be improved, challenged, and increased constantly, or it vanishes. "
            Peter Drucker

            And the greatest action taker in the world said :
            " I am indebted to my father for living, but to my teacher for living well. "
            Alexander the Great

            " I had rather excel others in the knowledge of what is excellent, than in the extent of my power and dominion. "
            Alexander the Great

            And finally Sal, you are just a guy who has an opinion. That's all.
            ... just like me.

            The difference is, I have respect towards knowledge and academicians.. :p
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            • Profile picture of the author azmanar
              Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

              Yes, but what did these guys know about Internet Marketing?
              I seriously hope you don't take these comments seriously. That's what I post smiley faces.

              It's not about disrespect for anyone. From my perspective, life can be taken away at any moment, so I try to not take things too seriously.

              You can pull out as many quotes as you wish. It doesn't mean anything unless you use that knowledge to better yourself.

              And frankly, am I not worthy of being quoted? Am I not entitled to espouse my wisdom, just these others have? Or do I need to be dead and have a PHD?

              To firstly assume that the opinions mean nothing and secondly to assume that I have no respect for knowledge or academics is disingenuous to say the least.

              The difference as you put it, is that I have a less serious approach to life these days. A perspective which can only be gained by looking death in the eye and staring him down.
              Sal,

              You're not alone. I have been there.

              But to me, it does mean to take things more seriously than taking them for granted. Make the best of every moment with optimism.

              If we ever made a name in our field, when we're long gone, our quotes will be worth at least 1,000,000 times more. ... lol .. Just like MJ's songs.

              See... we can still make fun of ourselves at the same time to lighten up.

              Did you notice that those dead people MOVED THE HEARTS OF MILLIONS of living people to this day.

              MOVED = change.

              Examples of change are : from negative to positive, from futility to success, from desperation to stability, from sadness to happiness, from stupidity ( disingenuous as you say it ) to wisdom, from poor to rich, from chaos to bliss.

              They lived centuries ago but they have influenced with what we see, hear, smell and hold today.

              Those dead guys may not know anything about internet marketing. But they know what most people really need to achieve all kinds of goals in life.

              1. Direction
              2. Hope

              Even Internet Entrepreneurs need these 2 in them. Imagine if they don't have 'em. Tell me.

              Finally, there is no reason not to use the word STUPID at me, because I deserve it.

              Socrates said " The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. ".
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  • Profile picture of the author satrap
    I personally think it really doesn't matter where you come from, its whats driving you inside and the actions you take that matters.

    Yeah, some people can do better in some situations because of their background. For example, I would think academics are good at sticking to the task at hand and being on schedule. But, then again, you dont have to be an academic to do that. Anyone with a bit discipline can do that as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author NanaMiz
    I do wonder about this question as a daughter of an academic and I notice so many of the successful entrepreneurs are not academic types. Intelligence is not always the same as wisdom. A successful entrepreneur has to have that right balance of openness, flexibility but also persistence and self-discipline. After a lot of ups and downs, I think I have that balance now and I look for that in others.
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  • Profile picture of the author spacechimpmedia
    Does academics make a good entrepreneur? No! Does academics make a better entrepreneur? Yes!

    To be an entrepreneur you have to be a certain personality type and personality types have nothing to do with your degree. Simple as that.
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    • Profile picture of the author azmanar
      Originally Posted by Hardy Chou View Post

      I wonder where he learnt how to count, read and write?

      He doesn't have teachers?

      He learnt all the 3 fundamentals on his own?
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  • Profile picture of the author barrogz
    Knowledge is power if applied. Learning can be done outside of institutions. I'd rather learn on the streets
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      There are obvious pros and cons to both forms of learning to be honest.

      Learning from a mentor is other, because it teaches you what you need with the benefit of real world experiences.
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  • Profile picture of the author pbdollars
    Education is key for success. The number skills you learn determine the money one can make. Brain Tracey advises that everyone should spend an hour each day learning new things. It is not a easy task but has its own benefits.
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  • Profile picture of the author Aviator Joe
    honestly, i don't think academics make good entrepreneurs. The "academic" people i've encoutered lacked that required ambition. Heh maybe it was just my bad experiences, i don't know
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    There is no doubt there is no definitive answer. It comes down to the individual's mindset and desire.

    What one sees as a weakness such as over analysis, someone else sees as a strength. And vice versa.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dean Jackson


    If you don't have an hour to watch this, here is the main takeaway:


    Annual college tuition on average $27,293


    Inflation over 2 years - 5.15%


    Average cost over 4 years: 117,900


    This is where the doco takes a slight shift to exagerate the cost of college, but according to it's stats most people will spend 6 years on average in college, bringing the total to $186349 (including inflation).


    Now let's think about the actual paying back of your college funds.


    Over 10 years, with an interest rate of 6% you'd pay an additional $61,914.


    ... bringing the total cost to $248,263.


    But it doesn't stop there - you also have to consider lost income during your study period:


    Average income for an entry level job - $35,400... over 6 years which tallies $212,400 in lost income.




    Let's add it all up:


    6 year tuition: $186,349
    Interest: $61,914
    Lost income: $212,400


    Total: $460,663


    I just want to reiterate that I'm terrible at maths, and I haven't checked my statistics because I don't live in the US and A


    That said, the figures are very plausible.


    Personally, I think the education system itself is a dinasaur, but that's another discussion for another day.


    Any thoughts?


    Dean
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    • Profile picture of the author Sandra Martinez
      Originally Posted by Dean Jackson View Post

      College Conspiracy - YouTube

      Let's add it all up:


      6 year tuition: $186,349
      Interest: $61,914
      Lost income: $212,400


      Total: $460,663


      Any thoughts?


      Dean
      I didn´t pay a dime for my education. In my country public university is free. The drawback is that it is a heads chopper, you need to be very good or die (we started 45 and finished 5).

      I did give back by taking teaching positions pro bono, and later on other positions that were paid joke money. But that was about it.

      Education in USA is kind of weird... it is outrageously expensive, and the actual subjects related to your area are not enough to get you started. It actually takes the place high school should, which is to give you a second language, broad general culture, scientific foundation and access to different lines of thinking.

      When I translated my title, they gave me master degree as equivalent of my degree. I didn´t mention the published papers or the post degree courses I took toward the phd I never actually finished. The translation of title was only counting the numbers of specific subjects.
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  • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
    MAJOR flaws are many I will only list a couple.

    It assumes that you have the $117K when in reality people would be borrowing this in many cases so that kills the entire logic of this.

    Also you get college for way less than 26K per year at quality colleges.

    entry level job - $35,400 with no college not where I live nor my family.


    BUT I think if you want to own your own business you don't need to go to college.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Ignorance: priceless.
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    • Profile picture of the author Henry White
      Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

      MAJOR flaws are many I will only list a couple.

      It assumes that you have the $117K when in reality people would be borrowing this in many cases so that kills the entire logic of this.

      Also you get college for way less than 26K per year at quality colleges.

      entry level job - $35,400 with no college not where I live nor my family.


      BUT I think if you want to own your own business you don't need to go to college.
      ROLF! Patrick you seriously need to re-read that post.

      The true costs of college goes beyond tuition, textbooks and other course materials, etc., and MUST include all other normal living expenses - so $26-27K is on the low side, conservatively assuming you're attending a state university where tuition is traditionally significantly lower than private schools who don't have the benefit of taxpayer subsidies.

      Similarly, there are benefits of a college education, and even attending one of the private universities or paying the premium for an Ivy League. You have to weigh this against the opportunity costs strictly on an individual basis.

      There aren't many entry-level jobs for high school grads that pay $17/hour, especially not in this economy! But they do exist: locally our garbage collectors start at roughly the same pay as school teachers; the main difference being that teachers are on a 9-month contract year. (I'm sure there are some very profound messages here about what/how we truly value if you look for them. )
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Hey guys, what age is college years?

    Our system is different down here.

    And when does Uni kick in?

    Thanks.
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Kennedy
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      Hey guys, what age is college years?

      Our system is different down here.

      And when does Uni kick in?

      Thanks.
      It's exactly the same age range. 18-22.
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        In Peru, it's 16 to 20 - one of our employees is just finishing up his internship. We hired him as a programmer when he was 15 and paid his way through university plus his living expenses. He's worked for us all this time, now specializing in graphics/video.

        His degree is in marketing and he's done some really excellent work for us along those lines. He's an investment in our future - ironically, while going to school he actually earned more than his parents and double that now that he's finished.
        That's awesome Mike.

        Dare I ask if that would be possible with a local person?
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    • Profile picture of the author cmccale
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      Based on the latest twist in the discussion, once again I have to say it comes down to mindset more than anything else.

      During my first year at university I started a mobile locksmith business (couldn't stand working in the cafeteria). By the end of the school year, I had 3 locksmiths working for me and grossed $200K. I netted around $70K or so - to be fair, I was working my ass off...a lot of 20 hour days, between classes service calls and studying.

      I was recruited out of university for my first position during my last year for $90K, plus some awesome benefits. It was a tough call - I carefully considered whether to even stay in school or continue my locksmith business. I decided to take a chance and pursue a professional career. Two years later my salary had doubled and I was in senior management (and still working a lot of 20 hours days).

      Three years later I went independent, forming my own consulting and design company. During all this time, I continued pursuing my education, eventually earning two more degrees and making more money than I knew what to do with. I retired at 39 and moved to Greece to raise a family.

      Point being, I paid for my education as I received it, I worked and earned while getting it and finished owing nothing, including my living expenses. That education and professional career earned far more than most Internet Marketers earn, including many of the "Gurus" I read about.

      In hindsight, I probably could have stayed with my locksmith business and built that into a multi-million dollar company (I had some interesting ideas on franchising), but the truth is, I wouldn't know where to begin doing it with out the education and experience from my professional career.

      As this discussion descends into correcting each others take on the cost of university the point is utterly missed. You find a way to cover those expenses, negate any long-term interest and pay for it. You work your ass off to do what you have to do to accomplish your goals instead of giving up because you want to convince yourself it's too costly.

      Look at it this way - how many marketers today are investing heavily into high-end IM products, and doing it by charging everything to credit cards, home equity loans, etc, and paying 20%+ in interest? How many eventually just give up, owing thousands of dollars with nothing at all to show for it?

      Mike - you did it the RIGHT WAY.

      I know a student - brilliant girl - who delayed going to university for two years after graduating top of her high school class; she got her beauty liscense and got a job cutting hair. She built her business first and fostered incredibly loyal customers. Then she went back to school.

      Because her customers were SO loyal to her, they made appointments that fit into HER class schedule. In her frist few years of school she worked 3-4 days a week, but at the end she was working 2 -3 days a week and was making $100+ a cut! Between her scholarships and her wages (sucked it up and lived at home), she too graduated debt free.

      Her degree: accounting. She was a top recruit for every major firm. Why? Because for 6 years she had not only run her own business but she had learned the fine art of diplomacy, listening, consultative selling, upselling..... ;-)

      There is nothing wrong with university folks. It's what you put into it or the effort you make to get something out of it.
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      • Profile picture of the author kiwiviktor81
        Lots of people insecure about their edicks in this thread.

        An academic is going to beat the crap out of a non-academic in entrepreneurialism for a number of reasons. Firstly, it takes incredible drive to become an academic. You have to be focused and committed, two things that the average person isn't.

        Secondly, academics know how to look at mountains of data and see patterns and trends. Someone with a research degree in statistics could rule IM by reducing it to a numbers game. The average person couldn't multiply 6 by 9 without help, so looking at RPM, traffic stats, etc. is just going to overwhelm them.

        Thirdly, academics is all about new thought. It's about looking at data and finding the simplest description of it, whether this involves coming up with a new theory or modifying an old one. The average person is incapable of new thought.

        The only difficulty that an academic might have is dealing with the insecurity, both financial and social.

        Having said all this, I think there's a wide variation in the suitability of the various academic professions to IM. We psychologists, of course, rule.
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          Ok, so do you have the stats to back up your argument?

          I am no academic, but hey I do have drive and hunger, don't get bogged down in over analysis, work hard and have focus.

          Secondly,not all academics are good at analysis. Some can't spot a tree in a rain forest.

          Thirdly, understanding marketing and being an entrepreneur are two separate things. Not mutually exclusive however.

          The average person is incapable of new thought?

          Wow, it's no wonder you Kiwi's have an inferiority complex.

          What total tosh.

          IM is simple...

          Find a market

          Find a product

          Sell it to the market.

          Perhaps this is something too simple for academics?

          Whilst they analyze, we drop outs make money and create wealth / employment.

          Originally Posted by kiwiviktor81 View Post

          Lots of people insecure about their edicks in this thread.

          An academic is going to beat the crap out of a non-academic in entrepreneurialism for a number of reasons. Firstly, it takes incredible drive to become an academic. You have to be focused and committed, two things that the average person isn't.

          Secondly, academics know how to look at mountains of data and see patterns and trends. Someone with a research degree in statistics could rule IM by reducing it to a numbers game. The average person couldn't multiply 6 by 9 without help, so looking at RPM, traffic stats, etc. is just going to overwhelm them.

          Thirdly, academics is all about new thought. It's about looking at data and finding the simplest description of it, whether this involves coming up with a new theory or modifying an old one. The average person is incapable of new thought.

          The only difficulty that an academic might have is dealing with the insecurity, both financial and social.

          Having said all this, I think there's a wide variation in the suitability of the various academic professions to IM. We psychologists, of course, rule.
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          This one...

          You seem to state your opinion as fact, so back it up.

          Simple really.

          Originally Posted by kiwiviktor81 View Post

          Lots of people insecure about their edicks in this thread.

          An academic is going to beat the crap out of a non-academic in entrepreneurialism for a number of reasons. Firstly, it takes incredible drive to become an academic. You have to be focused and committed, two things that the average person isn't.

          Secondly, academics know how to look at mountains of data and see patterns and trends. Someone with a research degree in statistics could rule IM by reducing it to a numbers game. The average person couldn't multiply 6 by 9 without help, so looking at RPM, traffic stats, etc. is just going to overwhelm them.

          Thirdly, academics is all about new thought. It's about looking at data and finding the simplest description of it, whether this involves coming up with a new theory or modifying an old one. The average person is incapable of new thought.

          The only difficulty that an academic might have is dealing with the insecurity, both financial and social.

          Having said all this, I think there's a wide variation in the suitability of the various academic professions to IM. We psychologists, of course, rule.
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  • Profile picture of the author absolutelee
    I think the word "academics" is a pretty broad category. I'm not sure you can pin this down like this. When I was in college, one of my physics professors had several patents. He was rumored to be a multi-millionaire. One thing I do think, however, is that entrepreneurs are not easily classified and categorized. That's why they're entrepreneurs.
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  • When I first started college (I later dropped out for career reasons) I was given a great answer to the question "Why go to college..."

    I was told by a very wise man, "The most important thing you learn in college is how to learn. And that's something you'll use forever." And that's true in our businesses. If you know how to learn, you can eventually do anything.
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    • Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing View Post

      "The most important thing you learn in college is how to learn. And that's something you'll use forever."
      Funny but I totally think it's the exact opposite.

      In my experience, nothing teaches you "How To Learn" about XXXXX than actually "Doing" XXXXX! And the sad truth is that there's very little "doing" going on in College. Lot's of "learning" and "lecturing", but very little actual "doing".

      Here's a real-life example: I studied English for years (English is not my native language). Well, guess what? I was never able to hold a solid ongoing conversation in English until I actually moved to an English speaking country. Within 3 months I learned more than in 3 years attending English classes back home.

      You know what they say: You can READ as many books as you want about fishing, but you won't be catching any fish until you actually GO to the river. Well, the same principle applies to most businesses: Doing trumps Learning.

      Sorry guys, but what can I say... anything that I truly know a damn thing about has been learned by actual first-hand experience rather than by formal theoretical education.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sandra Martinez
        Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

        Funny but I totally think otherwise. In my experience, nothing teaches you "How To Learn" about XXXXX than actually doing XXXXX! And the sad truth is that there's very little "doing" going on in College. Lot's of "learning" and "lecturing", but very little actual "doing".

        You can READ as many books as you want about fishing, but until you actually GO to the river you won't be catching any fish. Well, the same applies to most businesses.
        Any education that worth it forces you to DO.

        This is an interesting discussion because I have the feeling that for each person the definition of education is different.

        I do believe there is something really wrong going on in the educative system right now in all levels. But that is not a problem of academics per se, more of a taken over of the academic world and a twisting of it. Same thing that is happening in other sectors of society right now, starting by food.
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        • Originally Posted by Sandra Martinez View Post

          Any education that worth it forces you to DO.
          Incorrect.

          Education forces you to nothing but to learn. It's ACTION what forces you to actually DO. Which is why, once again, I believe that action trumps education.
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          Originally Posted by Sandra Martinez View Post


          I do believe there is something really wrong going on in the educative system right now in all levels. But that is not a problem of academics per se, more of a taken over of the academic world and a twisting of it. Same thing that is happening in other sectors of society right now, starting by food.
          Or it may be due to who is driving the agenda? It's a catch 22 as I see it.

          EG: who would be best placed to decide what we learn in a business school... someone with a phd or someone with real business savvy?

          Same goes for politics... to many ex-lawyers.
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          • Profile picture of the author MValmont
            IMO, College is all about social skills.

            This is where you go to make contacts.

            This is what I did anyway. Was going out 5-6 times per week. Was always hosting the biggest party in town.

            All these contacts are really useful today.

            Contacts > Grades , In college, IMO


            MValmont
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          • Profile picture of the author cmccale
            Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

            Or it may be due to who is driving the agenda? It's a catch 22 as I see it.

            EG: who would be best placed to decide what we learn in a business school... someone with a phd or someone with real business savvy?

            Same goes for politics... to many ex-lawyers.
            True - but that, again, presumes that the professors DON'T have business savvy.
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  • Profile picture of the author theemperor
    This entire discussion is academic
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  • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
    how very true just look at Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg all drop outs and all having the crap beat out of them by academics in the business world
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

      how very true just look at Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg all drop outs and all having the crap beat out of them by academics in the business world
      ooooooh - SNAP!!
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi,

      There are many things to be learnt here, but most of all the main lesson appears to be about how bias and personal experience can influence the answers.

      My answer to the question -

      Do Academics Make Good Entrepreneurs?
      ...is that it varies - some do, some don't.

      One quick example -

      MValmont said -

      IMO, College is all about social skills.

      This is where you go to make contacts.

      This is what I did anyway.
      kiwiviktor81 said -

      An academic is going to beat the crap out of a non-academic in entrepreneurialism for a number of reasons. Firstly, it takes incredible drive to become an academic. You have to be focused and committed, two things that the average person isn't.
      Putting aside the underlined part where MValmont emphasised the bias, one area was also highlighted where college can provide an advantage (contacts).

      kiwiviktor81 pointed out that 'it takes incredible drive and commitment' to succeed as an academic, accurately implying that these qualities are essential for entrepreneurs too.

      My response is this -

      How much MORE drive and commitment does it take for someone with no advanced education, no long term contacts and none of all the other things - to succeed as an entrepreneur? (Is that my bias rearing it's ugly head? ) Why is the alternative an 'average person?'

      On that basis, the person with less education probably has MORE drive and commitment, which would then completely negate this point -

      An academic is going to beat the crap out of a non-academic in entrepreneurialism for a number of reasons.
      My opinion is that we all get dealt a hand of cards in life. When we compare our hands, they will look very different in value at first glance (Hey! He got a pair of bullets!), prompting some to feel hard done by.

      Sometimes we don't always get the full hand delivered at once. But at the end of 'the day', however different those hands might look, they are all of equal value over time because that's just how life works. What really matters is how one plays that hand.
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    • Profile picture of the author drmani
      Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

      how very true just look at Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg all drop outs and all having the crap beat out of them by academics in the business world
      Well, exceptions sometimes prove the rule.

      And Larry and Sergei ("academics") haven't finished with Bill ("entrepreneur") yet

      All success
      Dr.Mani
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      • Profile picture of the author kiwiviktor81
        I think if a person is a drop out and they still went on to make lots of money, then their mothers should be very proud of them.
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          Originally Posted by kiwiviktor81 View Post

          I think if a person is a drop out and they still went on to make lots of money, then their mothers should be very proud of them.
          I'm still waiting for the stats to back up your argument.
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi kiwiviktor81,

          Originally Posted by kiwiviktor81 View Post

          I think if a person is a drop out and they still went on to make lots of money, then their mothers should be very proud of them.
          (Assuming that their mothers paid attention or even stuck around, right?)

          ...and academics could learn something from them

          'School of life' and all that.

          Help me out here dude.

          Which argument am I making that you disagree with
          This one -

          An academic is going to beat the crap out of a non-academic in entrepreneurialism for a number of reasons
          Then -

          what statistics would you need to see in order to reconsider your opinion?
          None. I would just use my eyes, ears and noddle (simple logic) to know that you are incorrect. But if you had said 'can often', instead of 'is going to', we wouldn't be having this discourse.

          But here's one stat (that's utterly erroneous (there's a not-so-subtle point there about stats)) - most of the books that I have read about self-made millionaires mention that they were educated in the same school as myself, the one mentioned just above.

          You should consider that while academics are doing the college/university thing, the 'less fortunate' have already started at that school, thus giving them a head-start. Some even graduate from there during childhood, the 'certification' for that can literally be their survival.

          Add to this that some academics consider that their education is over once they graduate, whereas some of the 'disadvantaged' never stop learning and spend their life accelerating that process. For example, a neglected child may learn to 'people-watch' from a very young age. Which college teaches that course?
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          • Profile picture of the author kiwiviktor81
            Hi Ex-Rat,

            I don't mean this comment as an argument, but can you tell me what it is about the 'school of life' that would give a normal person an advantage over an academic?
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            • Profile picture of the author kiwiviktor81
              Another way to look at this issue is to do a thought experiment.

              Imagine you have two people, one of whom you get to meet. He is an academic, blessed with the energy, focus, determination, ambition and intelligence to get a Ph.D. Now he is embarking on a career as an Internet Marketer.

              The other person you know absolutely nothing about, except that he is the same age and that he has also just started a career as an Internet Marketer.

              Then you get told that you have to pick who is going to make a million bucks first, and if you guess wrong you get shot in the face.

              Who will you pick? I'm going with the guy who has the proven track record of success in an extremely difficult enterprise.
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              • Profile picture of the author sal64
                That's a really dumb analogy.

                All you are doing is playing the percentages based on your biased preconceptions.

                What if one was an academic and the other was a street smart sales person?

                In this case, and much like the arguements you are trying to make...

                R.I.P

                Originally Posted by kiwiviktor81 View Post

                Another way to look at this issue is to do a thought experiment.

                Imagine you have two people, one of whom you get to meet. He is an academic, blessed with the energy, focus, determination, ambition and intelligence to get a Ph.D. Now he is embarking on a career as an Internet Marketer.

                The other person you know absolutely nothing about, except that he is the same age and that he has also just started a career as an Internet Marketer.

                Then you get told that you have to pick who is going to make a million bucks first, and if you guess wrong you get shot in the face.

                Who will you pick? I'm going with the guy who has the proven track record of success in an extremely difficult enterprise.
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                Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
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                • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                  Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

                  Frankly I give little credence to academics ability to analyze and have vision if they don't have the stomach to sell or learn how to sell. Give me a smart salesperson over an academic who can't sell anytime (speaking as an entrepreneur).
                  One could say the same thing about a non-academic. Sal, you're doing the same thing - stating your opinions as facts and constructing illustrations that support your opinion.

                  Would you take a smart salesperson with the demonstrated ability to analyze and have vision over an equally smart salesperson without that ability?

                  Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

                  When I was coaching authors, I found most of the academics to be the driest of all sales people and their material reflected their nature. Others were getting on with their books - didn't question the process - just got on with it... The A's analyzed and kept thinking... and got nothing done. If the process challenged their established beliefs, then they struggled. That's just my experience.
                  Having read through my share of academic writing, both as a student and as a researcher for things I wrote, academic authors can indeed be the driest of all writers. But your coaching students are/were a small subset of academia.

                  It's entirely natural for humans to generalize their own experiences. You worked with a set of academic authors who were, shall we say, entrepreneurship challenged. So you hold the opinion that academics do not make good entrepreneurs. That does not mean that all academics make poor entrepreneurs.

                  Some graduates of the school of life go on to build amazing commercial successes. Some go on to become street-hustling sewer rats. You can't paint the entire group with one brush or the other without mislabeling a fair portion.

                  Finally, to all the people who point to entrepreneurs like Gates, Jobs, and Zuckerberg as evidence that university is a waste of time...

                  If the likes of Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg had never gone to college at all, would we still be talking about them?

                  Kiyosaki is a college graduate.
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                  • Profile picture of the author sal64