Stop Dumping on WSO Threads... (please)

by LB
161 replies
This is one of those posts that I feel conflicted about writing because the people that really need to read it probably won't. Still, I think it's at the point where it would benefit from discussion.

I've noticed an increasing trend in WSO threads and with the advent of the WSOPro affiliate program it's getting worse.

Simply put, I see a LOT of people violating the WSO forum rules by posting negative and off-topic garbage in WSO threads- even though they haven't purchased the product!

There's nothing wrong with people who've purchased something leaving an honest negative review if that's how they feel. There IS something wrong with a bunch of people deriding a product or seller when they haven't even seen the product at hand.

I recently experienced this myself. Despite multiple positive reviews, one person left a negative one. I felt it was unwarranted and wrong...but such is the nature of the forum. He can do that.

Then, a bunch of people came in and quoted that one negative review and said things like, "ok, thanks another crappy WSO I won't buy" and "good review- will not buy". (I'm paraphrasing these as they were eventually deleted)

Then, someone incorrectly claimed I had multiple upsells (I did not). This would not be a huge deal by itself, but then people came in and proudly proclaimed how they would "never buy from someone offering upsells, let alone more than one. I won't be buying!" and another one claimed I was "guilty of bait & switch because I had an upsell" and also announced they would not buy either.

Pretty soon, despite hundreds of sales, the first page of my thread was filled up with negative crap from people who hadn't even purchased my product.

My conversion rate went into the toilet.

The mods eventually deleted those posts, but it took almost a full day to get some of them removed and in the interim it affected my sales and hurt my affiliates as well. (not to mention, it made my affiliates look like they were promoting a bad offer)

I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say those posts cost my affiliates thousands of dollars in sales and made them look bad.

But it's not just me.

I've seen posters incorrectly claim there was a forced-optin and soon the thread explodes with people proudly stating they won't buy because of it (even when it wasn't even true- but of course, they didn't buy so they don't know).

I've seen people state they won't buy because there's an upsell and pretty soon there is an angry mob agreeing with them. (Is this still a marketing forum?)

I've seen debates break out in WSO threads arguing over which is the best video-editing software. Completely off-topic and hurtful to the offer...but they don't care.

I've seen the most negative garbage get dumped on sellers because their product contains an affiliate recommendation...and soon there are a bunch of "non-buyers" in there agreeing with them.

This crap really needs to stop. It's unfair to sellers and affiliates and diminishing the value of the WSO forum. Again, I'm not talking about LEGITIMATE negative reviews, but negative and off-topic posts from non-buyers.

Looking at these threads I realized that probably 90% of these types of posts come from people with less than 100 posts. Many have less than 20.

I suspect with the new WSOPro affiliate program, there are a lot of new visitors being driven to the WSO thread.

I've learned, from contact with some of these people, that:
They don't realize the WSO forum is paid. They think listings are free. (which probably accounts for some of their actions)
They don't realize there are separate rules for that section.
I can't think of any great solution to this problem that wouldn't have other repercussions.

Perhaps some simple notice on the WSO forum when a post is about to be made? Something like:

"CAUTION: You are about to post in the WSO Forum. This is a paid marketplace with it's own rules. They can be found here." with a link.

Or maybe something more verbose is needed as a warning. I don't know. When in doubt, assume you're dealing with idiots I say.

I've seen some offers from new sellers that look good. According to their stats on WSOPro they haven't even sold 10 copies and yet morons are in their thread leaving ignorant comments and dashing their hopes of having a good WSO and perhaps, even recovering their listing fee. It's simply not fair to the seller.

There's been a lot of WSO-seller bashing lately, and with the increase in affiliate promotions I can see where some of that comes from.

However, this is an issue where sellers deserve better than having an army of unwitting troll non-buyers popping into every thread and listing reasons why they aren't buying or arguing their person beliefs as fact. (e.g. I don't like upsells)

What say you?
#dumping #stop #threads #wso
  • Profile picture of the author jasonthewebmaster
    Banned
    I have noticed the same exact thing. I usually tell those people to shove it and get out of my thread. Then I report them, give them an infraction, and request they be banned the their comments removed.
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    • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
      It is impossible to be politically correct when dealing with trolls. It's best to grab them by the ear and march them directly off of your thread. They'll squawk and complain the whole way too. But dang it, it feels pretty good sometimes putting a boot to their backsides.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Meaney
    I've also experienced this.

    Last week I had a complaint about a free WSO - because they had to opt-in to receive it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      I'd like to see temp bans as warnings for the idiotic postings there. Perhaps just 24 hours with an automatic PM or email going to them with the rules of the section for a first offense, but then escalating for the repeat offenders.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
        Banned
        It's a very good point LB. And it's not just in that forum but also in the Warrior For Hire forum too. And like you say, it's always from newer posters with a very low post count.

        The rules are there for a reason and it's the height of bad manners to interfere with another Warrior's promotion, one which s/he has paid for.

        A 24 hour ban isn't enough. Extend it to a week and it might have some impact.

        If it's any consolation, myself and no doubt others too, do click on the red reporting triangle to get posts removed which are blatantly breaking the rules in one form or another.

        I hope you find a solution to this / your problem.

        Best,


        Pete Walker
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        • Profile picture of the author Eduard Stinga
          Originally Posted by Pete Walker View Post

          A 24 hour ban isn't enough. Extend it to a week and it might have some impact.
          Probably this is the best solution to "educate" people.

          Also, a minimum post count of ~50-100, to be able to post in the WSO Section.

          But then again, probably some WSOs shouldn't be allowed in the section at all, but who can refuse $40 just like that (minimum, without considering bumps)?
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    • Profile picture of the author Jamie Drew
      Originally Posted by Mick Meaney View Post

      I've also experienced this.

      Last week I had a complaint about a free WSO - because they had to opt-in to receive it.
      Wow! That exactly the kind of subscriber you don't want!

      That is sheer cheek!
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      • Profile picture of the author Isaiah Jackson
        Originally Posted by JamieD87 View Post

        Wow! That exactly the kind of subscriber you don't want!

        That is sheer cheek!
        Wow that is crazy, why would people get angry to opt in to get something for free consequences need to be put out in order to keep those people in check if the complainers have less than 20 posts then I wouldn't allow anyone with less that 20 posts in the WSO Forum or have it set up so that when someone leaves a post in the forum the moderators have to approve of it first before everyone else can see it
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Sadly, I think one main reason for the problems you mention is because there is a growing number of two different types of WSO bashers.

    1. Those who are trying to build a tough rep so people who can't think for themselves will come to Big Sister or Big Brother so they can be told what to buy or not to buy.

    These Big Siblings have one of two agendas, one, they recommend only products they are affiliates of and two they have their own products that "Really" tell you how to do what the WSO failed (in their opinion) to tell you. In trying to build credibility they sometimes say something like, "This is a good product except it leaves this or that out, or it's basic info and....) Duh! It's $7 for Pete's sake.

    2. There is a malcontent group out there who have made it their sole purpose in life to destroy the WF. The WSO forum being a part of the WF has become a target. These ones chip away at the WSOs because they wrongly believe that the WF is Dependant on the WSO forum. Nothing is further from the truth. The WSO forum could go away today and the WF would live on.

    IMHO

    George Wright P.S. Edit. If the WSO forum did go away, which I hope never happens, true Warriors will always find ways to do WSOs. We were doing WSOs long before they had a name. We have ways of doing WSOs that the tire kicker, serial refunders and bashers never even know about and if the WSO Forum were disbanded today Warrior's WSO sales would go through the roof. Allen laid the ground work, those who "get it" can't be stopped.
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  • Profile picture of the author AnnaSEO
    But,There are people who also post fake positive reviews for all the products getting a review copy. What to do with them?

    WarriorPlus is the reason for all those scam offers and Now slowly this forum is losing its effectiveness and trust on wso's.As a result you are affected.

    In forums negative comments can't be suppressed but people who comment without buying is to be banned immediately.There should be staffs working full time to take care of this and at the same time should'nt delete real negative reviews from people who bought it.
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    • Profile picture of the author timpears
      Originally Posted by iwillwin View Post

      But,There are people who also post fake positive reviews for all the products getting a review copy. What to do with them?
      Ya think?

      Originally Posted by iwillwin View Post

      In forums negative comments can't be suppressed but people who comment without buying is to be banned immediately.There should be staffs working full time to take care of this and at the same time should'nt delete real negative reviews from people who bought it.
      A lot of people, me included, want to post and ask questions prior to any purchase. And sometimes I will express skepticism in these posts. Sorry if that offends you, but then some of the sales pitches offend me also. The claims are so over board it is unreal. I have read a couple claiming they could show you how to make millions. Maybe they can, and then maybe they can't. But the old, this will show you how to make a million by next week, without any work, is typically a scam or just plain BS. And one I read just yesterday was saying how you could accomplish all this with almost no work. Yea, right.

      Give me a break.
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      Tim Pears

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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
        Banned
        Some of them blatantly shouldn't get through the system Tim. They shouldn't be approved. Period.

        But it's not my call. If it was, quite a few wouldn't make it past my filter.

        It's these very WSO's which bring this forum a bad name from time to time. It would be better to weed out the crap and concentrate on allowing high quality WSO's only. Or at least to have a benchmark high quality standard for acceptance.

        If a WSO fails this benchmark standard, it doesn't go through the system period.

        Best,


        Pete Walker
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      • Profile picture of the author LB
        Originally Posted by timpears View Post

        Ya think?



        A lot of people, me included, want to post and ask questions prior to any purchase. And sometimes I will express skepticism in these posts. Sorry if that offends you, but then some of the sales pitches offend me also. The claims are so over board it is unreal. I have read a couple claiming they could show you how to make millions. Maybe they can, and then maybe they can't. But the old, this will show you how to make a million by next week, without any work, is typically a scam or just plain BS. And one I read just yesterday was saying how you could accomplish all this with almost no work. Yea, right.

        Give me a break.
        There's nothing wrong with legitimate pre-sales questions.

        None of what I'm talking about here would meet that description though.
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    • Profile picture of the author George Wright
      [QUOTE=iwillwin;4655846]But,There are people who also post fake positive reviews for all the products getting a review copy. What to do with them? If reviews bother you don't read them. You don't know if the review is fake or not unless you buy the product and then even if you think it's fake you don't know for sure maybe you just don't take the time to properly implement the product.

      WarriorPlus is the reason for all those scam offers and Now slowly this forum is losing its effectiveness and trust on wso's.As a result you are affected. Again, buy the products and if they are scams report them, scamers are NOT allowed here. If you can't afford to lose a few bucks wait for legitimate buyers to review it and let them do the thinking for you if need be. Never spend your kids' lunch money on a WSO anyway.

      (In forums negative comments can't be suppressed but people who Sorry I don't understand this part...)

      comment without buying is to be banned immediately. That's a good thing. I wish it were true. There should be staffs working full time to take care of this and at the same time shouldn't delete real negative reviews from people who bought it. Would you be willing to pay me $100 an hour to review any WSO you wish me to? If so we have a deal. Otherwise, again I say think for yourself, buy or not, refund or not whatever you want and yes I'm serious, Pay me $100 an hour to think for you and I'll be glad to. Please don't take this as an insult. I pay people to think for me all the time. I buy newspapers to read the food critiques, I pay my doctor to tell me how to eat and what medicine to take, I pay my tax man to tell me what I can and cannot deduct on and on.[/QUOTE]

      I put my answers in red above inside your quote.
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    • Profile picture of the author jonnyq888
      Originally Posted by iwillwin View Post

      But,There are people who also post fake positive reviews for all the products getting a review copy. What to do with them?
      See there is a difference between giving a negative review and being a troll. It's actually pretty easy to spot the difference, the problem is having someone out there who is actively on the lookout for the trolls.

      There needs to be a balance.
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  • Profile picture of the author skibbz
    Originally Posted by LB View Post

    This is one of those posts that I feel conflicted about writing because the people that really need to read it probably won't. Still, I think it's at the point where it would benefit from discussion.

    I've noticed an increasing trend in WSO threads and with the advent of the WSOPro affiliate program it's getting worse.

    Simply put, I see a LOT of people violating the WSO forum rules by posting negative and off-topic garbage in WSO threads- even though they haven't purchased the product!

    There's nothing wrong with people who've purchased something leaving an honest negative review if that's how they feel. There IS something wrong with a bunch of people deriding a product or seller when they haven't even seen the product at hand.

    I recently experienced this myself. Despite multiple positive reviews, one person left a negative one. I felt it was unwarranted and wrong...but such is the nature of the forum. He can do that.

    Then, a bunch of people came in and quoted that one negative review and said things like, "ok, thanks another crappy WSO I won't buy" and "good review- will not buy". (I'm paraphrasing these as they were eventually deleted)

    Then, someone incorrectly claimed I had multiple upsells (I did not). This would not be a huge deal by itself, but then people came in and proudly proclaimed how they would "never buy from someone offering upsells, let alone more than one. I won't be buying!" and another one claimed I was "guilty of bait & switch because I had an upsell" and also announced they would not buy either.

    Pretty soon, despite hundreds of sales, the first page of my thread was filled up with negative crap from people who hadn't even purchased my product.

    My conversion rate went into the toilet.

    The mods eventually deleted those posts, but it took almost a full day to get some of them removed and in the interim it affected my sales and hurt my affiliates as well. (not to mention, it made my affiliates look like they were promoting a bad offer)

    I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say those posts cost my affiliates thousands of dollars in sales and made them look bad.

    But it's not just me.

    I've seen posters incorrectly claim there was a forced-optin and soon the thread explodes with people proudly stating they won't buy because of it (even when it wasn't even true- but of course, they didn't buy so they don't know).

    I've seen people state they won't buy because there's an upsell and pretty soon there is an angry mob agreeing with them. (Is this still a marketing forum?)

    I've seen debates break out in WSO threads arguing over which is the best video-editing software. Completely off-topic and hurtful to the offer...but they don't care.

    I've seen the most negative garbage get dumped on sellers because their product contains an affiliate recommendation...and soon there are a bunch of "non-buyers" in there agreeing with them.

    This crap really needs to stop. It's unfair to sellers and affiliates and diminishing the value of the WSO forum. Again, I'm not talking about LEGITIMATE negative reviews, but negative and off-topic posts from non-buyers.

    Looking at these threads I realized that probably 90% of these types of posts come from people with less than 100 posts. Many have less than 20.

    I suspect with the new WSOPro affiliate program, there are a lot of new visitors being driven to the WSO thread.

    I've learned, from contact with some of these people, that:
    They don't realize the WSO forum is paid. They think listings are free. (which probably accounts for some of their actions)
    They don't realize there are separate rules for that section.
    I can't think of any great solution to this problem that wouldn't have other repercussions.

    Perhaps some simple notice on the WSO forum when a post is about to be made? Something like:

    "CAUTION: You are about to post in the WSO Forum. This is a paid marketplace with it's own rules. They can be found here." with a link.

    Or maybe something more verbose is needed as a warning. I don't know. When in doubt, assume you're dealing with idiots I say.

    I've seen some offers from new sellers that look good. According to their stats on WSOPro they haven't even sold 10 copies and yet morons are in their thread leaving ignorant comments and dashing their hopes of having a good WSO and perhaps, even recovering their listing fee. It's simply not fair to the seller.

    There's been a lot of WSO-seller bashing lately, and with the increase in affiliate promotions I can see where some of that comes from.

    However, this is an issue where sellers deserve better than having an army of unwitting troll non-buyers popping into every thread and listing reasons why they aren't buying or arguing their person beliefs as fact. (e.g. I don't like upsells)

    What say you?
    this is very unprofessional behaviour, come on warriors we should support each other and if there is a flaw with the product then send a message via pm indicating recommendations for improvement
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  • Profile picture of the author David Chung
    How would we find out who is an actual customer and who isn't?

    The only real solution I can think of as a WSO buyer would be to check the reputation - past posts and threads of the reviewer. Highly reputable Warriors would be less likely to post 'fake reviews'.

    But after a little self-examination, I realize that I tend to 'double-check' only the positive reviews. Since good reviews are the ones that convince me to buy, I need to check whether they are real or not.

    The bad reviews, I am more likely to take at face value, because I assume that negative reviewers have nothing to gain.

    After reading George Wright's post I realize that there may be other motives for negative reviews as well - guess I have to remind myself to double check everything I read. :s
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  • Profile picture of the author BabyMama
    I have noticed the exact same thing! I was very shocked to see that when I launched a new service recently I got a person commenting on it leaving negative comments on my service even though they had never even purchased it and hadn't even read the sales thread. Then I saw they were offering a service almost identical to mine in their signature!
    I think this is really out of order and have reported them to WF it was an obvious pitch to make my service look bad so they could advertise their own service.

    I was then approached by another warrior who said the person had done the exact same thing on their thread!

    NOT GOOD!

    There is enough business here for everyone so please don't try to ruin it for others
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    • Profile picture of the author ttkim
      Originally Posted by BabyMama View Post

      I have noticed the exact same thing! I was very shocked to see that when I launched a new service recently I got a person commenting on it leaving negative comments on my service even though they had never even purchased it and hadn't even read the sales thread. Then I saw they were offering a service almost identical to mine in their signature!
      I think this is really out of order and have reported them to WF it was an obvious pitch to make my service look bad so they could advertise their own service.

      I was then approached by another warrior who said the person had done the exact same thing on their thread!

      NOT GOOD!

      There is enough business here for everyone so please don't try to ruin it for others
      I think I know who you're talking about. That person actually goes around giving negative comments to many other backlinking services.

      I like to check the history of the person giving negative feedback before putting any credibility into it. >< For positive reviews, I tend to look at their post count/reputation.

      Edit: I haven't bought any WSO nor do I plan to make one. However, fake positive reviews don't have nearly as much impact as fake negative reviews. I'm not sure about others, but I don't care if there are 10 positive reviews if there is that 1 negative review. I put more emphasis on the negative review because I want to know exactly what the problem is.
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    The "must buy to reply" rule is pretty lame though.

    There are times when we don't need to buy to know if it's as advertised or not.

    Example: Someone was selling a script, I looked at the demo and saw it wasn't 100% as advertised, pointed it out and *BOOM* seller cried and my post was deleted. Purchase wasn't needed to point it the problems but seller was "protected" anyway.

    Or If some one make outlandish claims, nothing wrong w/ pointing it out or past experiences w/ a person. As long as it's not done in a vindictive way. Especially since praise for sellers is always posted w/out buying as is OK.

    Garrie
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      OP, everyone feels your pain. I've been frustrated myself at seeing off-point comments, moronic comments, etc., all of which decreases conversions for something $40 was just paid for.

      Meanwhile, until fixed by a mod, your WSO scrolls off the first page.

      However, the forum is not in a position to evaluate and censor every post, or determine the motivation behind it.

      On the other hand after commenting about legal issues for a few WSOs, where a seller felt their opportunity to make money was compromised and they didn't care about legal issues standing in the way of a fast buck, believe me, the flames and threats can be incredible because of the money and emotions involved.

      I'm in awe at how much the mods are able to catch and fix as it is.

      However, by posting a WSO you are not paying for a mod to moderate anything, to protect the value of your WSO, etc. There is no obligation for the forum to even have moderators.

      This quote: "I've noticed an increasing trend in WSO threads and with the advent of the WSOPro affiliate program it's getting worse."

      is interesting, especially since you are using WarriorPro and having affiliates send traffic to the WSO.

      Maybe you need better affiliates?

      Is there a problem in relying upon the WSO subforum as your business?

      This is a discussion forum.

      What WarriorPlus is trying to do is use the forum for a purpose it is really not intended for. Not in idea. Not in technological implementation.

      And that is a very limited and focused discussion of just your product. But I'm not sure if that is possible, especially given the broad context you've outlined.

      "Warrior Special Offer"

      That is NOT affiliates blasting emails to who knows who about a product listed on the forum, bringing in someone who has never heard of the forum or aware of what it is.

      That is the ClickBank "marketplace" but with an opportunity to post comments.

      A couple ideas to address the situation:

      If you want to better control the discussion, do what some other Warriors do and that is to have a brief WSO which provides a special offer for Warriors but which directs people to YOUR website where you make the sales pitch, allow or not allow discussion, have the order button, etc.

      Some of my best WSOs are a two-step process where there is a brief WSO page, but no order link. Instead, someone must visit my website with the "real" sales page, offer, and order link where they can use a special "coupon" or other "code" only listed on the WSO page.

      I'm not sure if that is possible using WSOPro or not.

      Another idea: you can always start a new thread and copy into your sales page the positive comments from the old thread.

      I'm not sure if WSOPro will let you change your admin reference, or another fee may be required.

      I know what you're saying and what the problem is, and no one wants to see the WSO subforum degraded by the idiot horde. But the WSO subforum is also incredibly active and that compounds the problem. Maybe more mods is an answer.

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        That is NOT affiliates blasting emails to who knows who about a product listed on the forum, bringing in someone who has never heard of the forum or aware of what it is.
        I have said it before, I will say it again.

        Why can someone read the WSO forum without being logged in?

        If Warrior Special Offers are specials FOR Warriors, then you should have to be a Warrior - and therefore LOGGED IN, potentially also with other post count or join date requirements - to buy the WSO.

        But if Warrior Special Offers are just specials FROM Warriors, then things are just fine as they are. We just have to understand that the "special" part is not that it is a great deal or a discount or something exclusive to the forum, it is just that the person making the offer happens to be a Warrior. And that is honestly not very special at all.

        It would be reasonably simple to hack into the WSO Forum a little bit of code that strips links out of every post you view when you're not logged in. That way, search engines could still see the post, and they would still get indexed, and people could still be sold on the product... but they can't click the buy button until they log in.

        This will, of course, drop conversions dramatically for all the people who are driving and getting non-Warrior traffic. But if you ask me, those people don't belong here and if they don't make as much money maybe they will GTFO.

        Just my two cents. Which I value greatly, because they are mine, but the reality is they are still just two cents.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          I have said it before, I will say it again.

          Why can someone read the WSO forum without being logged in?

          If Warrior Special Offers are specials FOR Warriors, then you should have to be a Warrior - and therefore LOGGED IN, potentially also with other post count or join date requirements - to buy the WSO.
          Caliban,

          I actually happen to agree with you but it isn't relevant to the topic of this thread. Non-Warriors may buy, but they cannot comment so this is not causing the problem discussed in the OP.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

            I actually happen to agree with you but it isn't relevant to the topic of this thread.
            Yes it is. We are getting crap comments on WSOs because traffic is being driven here that does not belong here, because WSOs can be purchased by anybody. It is a minority of people who comment in the WSO threads, but that minority is often pulled from a much larger group that lowers conversions and raises refund rates without commenting: non-Warriors.

            A lot of affiliates are sending non-Warrior traffic to the forum - where they buy a WSO, join the forum, don't really fit in, then start pissing and moaning about it. Some of them are pissing and moaning on WSO threads, and some are pissing and moaning in the main IM forum, but they're all symptoms of the same disease: JACKHOLE AFFILIATES WHO DON'T GIVE A CRAP.
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        • Profile picture of the author retirewithsandie
          Originally Posted by timpears View Post

          A lot of people, me included, want to post and ask questions prior to any purchase. And sometimes I will express skepticism in these posts.
          That's fine. It's one thing to ask legitimate questions. If someone is telling you you'll make a gazillion dollars in the next 30 minutes definitely asking questions with skepticism is warranted. But saying "your product is junk/rehash" when you haven't looked at it, is totally different.

          Originally Posted by Janice Sperry View Post

          For transparency I would like to see at a minimum.

          The first words of a post MUST include one or more of the following:

          I bought the product.
          I read/tried the product.
          I did not buy the product.
          I am an affiliate.
          I received a review copy.
          It's a good thought but it would take extra steps to make sure everyone was being honest. Someone can still lie and claim they purchased the item when they didn't. Since the sellers aren't on here 24/7 there could be so much damage done before they can get in there to counter it. Anyone leaving a review, thoughts, etc. claiming they purchased the WSO, would have to provide their Transaction ID and/or email used to purchase and the WSO seller verify it.
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  • Profile picture of the author xxxJamesxxx
    What about all the affiliated positive reviews? Bet you're willing to turn a blind eye to them though?

    There is just too much BS in the WSO section now - don't even step foot in there now. Wild claims, affiliated positive reviews have totally destroyed the WSO now.

    I just go in the War room now. Somebody once said to me that every post in there is like a free WSO and I couldn't agree more.

    James Scholes
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    • Profile picture of the author LB
      Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

      The "must buy to reply" rule is pretty lame though.

      There are times when we don't need to buy to know if it's as advertised or not.

      Example: Someone was selling a script, I looked at the demo and saw it wasn't 100% as advertised, pointed it out and *BOOM* seller cried and my post was deleted. Purchase wasn't needed to point it the problems but seller was "protected" anyway.

      Or If some one make outlandish claims, nothing wrong w/ pointing it out or past experiences w/ a person. As long as it's not done in a vindictive way. Especially since praise for sellers is always posted w/out buying as is OK.

      Garrie
      The rule is not "must buy to reply".

      The rule states: "UPDATED: Anyone caught trying to purposefully harm another persons WSO will be removed from this forum permanently. If you bought the WSO you have a right to comment on it. However, if you have not bought it you have no right to say anything at all about it. You have no basis on which to even give an opinion one way or the other."

      It's been there for 3 years.

      Originally Posted by xxxJamesxxx View Post

      What about all the affiliated positive reviews? Bet you're willing to turn a blind eye to them though?

      There is just too much BS in the WSO section now - don't even step foot in there now. Wild claims, affiliated positive reviews have totally destroyed the WSO now.

      I just go in the War room now. Somebody once said to me that every post in there is like a free WSO and I couldn't agree more.

      James Scholes
      Again, the rules are: "Reviewers should make sure to say in their reviews that they received review copies. Transparency is the key here."


      See, the rules are actually pretty good as they stand. It's just that many people do not know or follow them.


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      • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
        Originally Posted by LB View Post

        The rule is not "must buy to reply".

        The rule states: "UPDATED: Anyone caught trying to purposefully harm another persons WSO will be removed from this forum permanently. If you bought the WSO you have a right to comment on it. However, if you have not bought it you have no right to say anything at all about it. You have no basis on which to even give an opinion one way or the other."

        It's been there for 3 years.
        Um.. "buy to reply" is the short version of the rule. I never said otherwise.

        Yet as I pointed out, there are times when you do have a basis without buying. You know, when the demo is flawed. When the seller didn't deliver in the past for something else, etc. But they still get deleted.

        There are always posts in WSOs that aren't questions or from buyers. Yet sellers enjoy the bennefit of those.

        Like I originally said, it's sorta of a lame rule. It protects sellers and not buyers.

        Garrie
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael D Forbes
      Originally Posted by xxxJamesxxx View Post

      What about all the affiliated positive reviews?...
      Have you considered this?

      A positive review from an affiliate can actually be one of the strongest possible reasons to buy.

      Yes, there are affiliates that will promote anything and everything for a quick buck.

      However, if you see a glowing recommendation from an established Warrior (that is quite likely an affiliate) you might want to consider that as a GOOD thing.

      Do you think someone with a real marketing business and a reputation to protect is going to leave a positive review for garbage? I seriously doubt it.

      I personally tend to pay for my own copy of any product I plan to promote (WSO, CB, or any other). I go through it and evaluate it based on the promises it makes. If it doesn't measure up, I don't promote it! I certainly won't leave a positive review if I think it's junk.

      You might still think it's junk, but my review is my opinion, not the final say.

      Originally Posted by xxxJamesxxx View Post

      ...affiliated positive reviews have totally destroyed the WSO now.
      Really? As alluded to above, I take a recommendation from an affiliate I trust as a very good reason to buy. I have found many excellent WSO's this way. As a matter of fact, I am very rarely disappointed with a WSO I buy, because I buy them mostly on recommendation from others.

      Michael D. Forbes
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by LB View Post

    What say you?
    I have no vested interested either way, here: I don't make negative comments about WSO's I haven't bought, and I haven't done a WSO of my own.

    I think your entire post is very well written and entirely valid and I agree with every word you say.

    And I hope many people take notice of it - though I share your concern that the people who need to read it actually won't.

    I do think it's right that the moderators should delete whining comments from non-customers. But I do think you have to allow non-purchasers to post in WSO threads, otherwise many people (without p.m. access) can't ask perfectly legitimate questions.

    I think Garrie makes a fair point, just above, too: there'll be times when a negative comment's entirely justified and doesn't require a purchase. But what can you do? Where you have a "rule", you're also going to have "anomalies".
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    • Profile picture of the author George Wright
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      I think Garrie makes a fair point, just above, too: there'll be times when a negative comment's entirely justified and doesn't require a purchase. But what can you do? Where you have a "rule", you're also going to have "anomalies".
      I agree with this 100%. I was trying to think of how to say it without seeming like I was disagreeing with Gary. You said it perfectly Alexa. Thanks.

      George Wright
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    There is a simple solution. It is against the TOS to review or bash products you haven't purchased, so unless they are paying customers, hit the report button and they disappear.
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    • Profile picture of the author LB
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      There is a simple solution. It is against the TOS to review or bash products you haven't purchased, so unless they are paying customers, hit the report button and they disappear.
      This is the ideal solution, but in my experience people rarely feel the need to report something like this. Thus it ends up at the help desk and may take awhile to get resolved (and increases their workload). Many sellers don't seem to bother fighting it and the threads just die after getting piled on with rude comments.

      Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

      Um.. "buy to reply" is the short version of the rule. I never said otherwise.

      Yet as I pointed out, there are times when you do have a basis without buying. You know, when the demo is flawed. When the seller didn't deliver in the past for something else, etc. But they still get deleted.

      There are always posts in WSOs that aren't questions or from buyers. Yet sellers enjoy the bennefit of those.

      Like I originally said, it's sorta of a lame rule. It protects sellers and not buyers.

      Garrie
      I'm not saying that anything should be done to silence legitimate concerns or pre-sales questions.

      If you see something broken or dishonest or just want to ask if it will work on your server setup (as an example) then those are perfectly fine IMO. If you had posts like that deleted then I would say that seems in error.

      I'm talking about posts like, "I don't buy from people with upsells they are scammers" or "you can get a better product here I think" or "looks interesting but probably a scam".

      Looking through some posters' histories you can see they basically "make the rounds" leaving ignorant posts on WSOs almost in batches. Others seem genuine but leave comments in response to others without buying ("Oh, he has affiliate links on the ebook? I will not be buying from you loser").
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by LB View Post

        This is the ideal solution, but in my experience people rarely feel the need to report something like this. Thus it ends up at the help desk and may take awhile to get resolved (and increases their workload). Many sellers don't seem to bother fighting it and the threads just die after getting piled on with rude comments.
        My experience is that any reported comments that violated TOS have been removed rapidly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
    Banned
    I'm guessing you're just fine with positive posts from folks who haven't purchased the product though, right?

    Originally Posted by LB View Post

    This is one of those posts that I feel conflicted about writing because the people that really need to read it probably won't. Still, I think it's at the point where it would benefit from discussion.

    I've noticed an increasing trend in WSO threads and with the advent of the WSOPro affiliate program it's getting worse.

    Simply put, I see a LOT of people violating the WSO forum rules by posting negative and off-topic garbage in WSO threads- even though they haven't purchased the product!

    There's nothing wrong with people who've purchased something leaving an honest negative review if that's how they feel. There IS something wrong with a bunch of people deriding a product or seller when they haven't even seen the product at hand.

    I recently experienced this myself. Despite multiple positive reviews, one person left a negative one. I felt it was unwarranted and wrong...but such is the nature of the forum. He can do that.

    Then, a bunch of people came in and quoted that one negative review and said things like, "ok, thanks another crappy WSO I won't buy" and "good review- will not buy". (I'm paraphrasing these as they were eventually deleted)

    Then, someone incorrectly claimed I had multiple upsells (I did not). This would not be a huge deal by itself, but then people came in and proudly proclaimed how they would "never buy from someone offering upsells, let alone more than one. I won't be buying!" and another one claimed I was "guilty of bait & switch because I had an upsell" and also announced they would not buy either.

    Pretty soon, despite hundreds of sales, the first page of my thread was filled up with negative crap from people who hadn't even purchased my product.

    My conversion rate went into the toilet.

    The mods eventually deleted those posts, but it took almost a full day to get some of them removed and in the interim it affected my sales and hurt my affiliates as well. (not to mention, it made my affiliates look like they were promoting a bad offer)

    I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say those posts cost my affiliates thousands of dollars in sales and made them look bad.

    But it's not just me.

    I've seen posters incorrectly claim there was a forced-optin and soon the thread explodes with people proudly stating they won't buy because of it (even when it wasn't even true- but of course, they didn't buy so they don't know).

    I've seen people state they won't buy because there's an upsell and pretty soon there is an angry mob agreeing with them. (Is this still a marketing forum?)

    I've seen debates break out in WSO threads arguing over which is the best video-editing software. Completely off-topic and hurtful to the offer...but they don't care.

    I've seen the most negative garbage get dumped on sellers because their product contains an affiliate recommendation...and soon there are a bunch of "non-buyers" in there agreeing with them.

    This crap really needs to stop. It's unfair to sellers and affiliates and diminishing the value of the WSO forum. Again, I'm not talking about LEGITIMATE negative reviews, but negative and off-topic posts from non-buyers.

    Looking at these threads I realized that probably 90% of these types of posts come from people with less than 100 posts. Many have less than 20.

    I suspect with the new WSOPro affiliate program, there are a lot of new visitors being driven to the WSO thread.

    I've learned, from contact with some of these people, that:
    They don't realize the WSO forum is paid. They think listings are free. (which probably accounts for some of their actions)
    They don't realize there are separate rules for that section.
    I can't think of any great solution to this problem that wouldn't have other repercussions.

    Perhaps some simple notice on the WSO forum when a post is about to be made? Something like:

    "CAUTION: You are about to post in the WSO Forum. This is a paid marketplace with it's own rules. They can be found here." with a link.

    Or maybe something more verbose is needed as a warning. I don't know. When in doubt, assume you're dealing with idiots I say.

    I've seen some offers from new sellers that look good. According to their stats on WSOPro they haven't even sold 10 copies and yet morons are in their thread leaving ignorant comments and dashing their hopes of having a good WSO and perhaps, even recovering their listing fee. It's simply not fair to the seller.

    There's been a lot of WSO-seller bashing lately, and with the increase in affiliate promotions I can see where some of that comes from.

    However, this is an issue where sellers deserve better than having an army of unwitting troll non-buyers popping into every thread and listing reasons why they aren't buying or arguing their person beliefs as fact. (e.g. I don't like upsells)

    What say you?
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

      I'm guessing you're just fine with positive posts from folks who haven't purchased the product though, right?
      Usually those are going to come from people who have actually read the WSO, though. There's a difference.

      You do raise an interesting point, though. Sometimes there will be positive comments from people who are friends or who bought a previous WSO from that person and loved it.

      Should those be allowed? For me, I don't care, I think they should be allowed.

      But by the same token should someone go in and be able to say, "I bought a previous WSO from this guy that was crap and I hated it and I was given horrible customer service, etc." all honest and true about that previous product but not necessarily relevant to the new WSO. Should that be allowed?

      That's what I wonder about.

      The problem with the OP though is where he's saying people go in and trash on threads and haven't even bought the product, and keep posting and posting about a minor issue. And then when fallacies are believed as fact and give the opportunity for serial complainers to just complain and spread their negativity and nonsense. That's the crap that happens sometimes that should not be tolerated, and usually isn't.

      Or when someone makes a huge issue out of an extremely minor point of the product and use it as a soapbox to deride the entire IM industry and what they see as "unethical" practices and bla bla bla complain complain complain. Seen it happen quite a few times the last month or two and it just makes you wonder, can some people ever be happy or do they have to find the negatives in every single thing in which they are involved?
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    • Profile picture of the author LB
      Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

      I'm guessing you're just fine with positive posts from folks who haven't purchased the product though, right?
      No. That's an unwarranted extrapolation on my original point.

      If someone is leaving positive reviews of products they haven't seen then that seems to be pretty clear shilling and they should be treated to an extended forum vacation.

      The forum rules already state that reviewers need to be transparent.

      It's very unlikely to get a stack of "drive by" positive reviews from people who haven't purchased.

      Occasionally, you'll see comments like "looks good, I will buy later" or "This looks like a method I've been using for awhile and I can state that it's very effective". Things of that nature.

      As an example of what I'm talking about, I've seen posts on WSOs that were literally 4 or 5 paragraphs long detailing the perceived evils of upsells, how they shouldn't be allowed, how they should be banned from the forum and how all sellers using them are scammers. At the end of their rant they openly said basically, "and that's why I won't buy this or any other product with an upsell!". Then, 4 other people quote that ranter and say "oh yes, I agree. I won't buy".

      Those debates can take place elsewhere on this forum...they shouldn't be dumped into a seller's thread just because someone feels like ranting.
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    For transparency I would like to see at a minimum.

    The first words of a post MUST include one or more of the following:

    I bought the product.
    I read/tried the product.
    I did not buy the product.
    I am an affiliate.
    I received a review copy.

    Any post that does not start with one or more of those sentences gets deleted. Most of the experienced long-timers here already post these things. Full disclosure is a classy thing.
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    • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
      Originally Posted by Janice Sperry View Post

      For transparency I would like to see at a minimum.

      The first words of a post MUST include one or more of the following:

      I bought the product.
      I read/tried the product.
      I did not buy the product.
      I am an affiliate.
      I received a review copy.

      Any post that does not start with one or more of those sentences gets deleted. Most of the experienced long-timers here already post these things. Full disclosure is a classy thing.
      that would actually be a really good "required field" option in order to make a post..

      i.e. someone clicks on reply and they have to fill that out before they are able to post. Then, it could post that info above their post, or color code it or something..
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    • Profile picture of the author Ron Silva
      Originally Posted by Janice Sperry View Post

      For transparency I would like to see at a minimum.

      The first words of a post MUST include one or more of the following:

      I bought the product.
      I read/tried the product.
      I did not buy the product.
      I am an affiliate.
      I received a review copy.

      Any post that does not start with one or more of those sentences gets deleted. Most of the experienced long-timers here already post these things. Full disclosure is a classy thing.
      I'd like to see this as the very minimum.
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  • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
    I've never released a WSO but I have bought quite a few.

    Personally, I am saddened by the complete loss of quality in the WSO section. Yes, I have bought many, many great WSO's. But there have been several that were absolute garbage and I couldn't believe they were allowed in.

    I feel some of the hostility in the WSO forum has been caused by sellers of terrible WSO's. To keep from further harming the forum, perhaps the sellers of junk WSO's should be banned also.

    I know there are people who are just looking to make trouble for sellers and I think that is despicable. Anyone who sets out to harm another sellers business is a low life.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Prevalent View Post

      ...perhaps the sellers of junk WSO's should be banned also.
      They're hardly going to be banned are they, when their thread has just been approved by a moderator.
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      • Profile picture of the author J Bold
        Originally Posted by Pete Walker View Post

        They're hardly going to be banned are they, when their thread has just been approved by a moderator.
        If their WSO is found to break forum rules by reports from buyers, then yes, they will be banned. Seen it happen several times.
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      • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
        Originally Posted by Pete Walker View Post

        They're hardly going to be banned are they, when their thread has just been approved by a moderator.
        True. That is part of the problem.

        If anyone has ever done business at ThemeForest, you know that they have very high quality standards.

        Designs are rejected all the time and are told their product is not high quality and what to fix.

        WSO's could be the same. I'm not looking for fancy graphics but...

        A thorough explanation of the method should be required.

        A new or novel approach should be required.

        Good customer support should be required.
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        • Profile picture of the author andynathan
          Originally Posted by Prevalent View Post

          True. That is part of the problem.

          If anyone has ever done business at ThemeForest, you know that they have very high quality standards.

          Designs are rejected all the time and are told their product is not high quality and what to fix.

          WSO's could be the same. I'm not looking for fancy graphics but...

          A thorough explanation of the method should be required.

          A new or novel approach should be required.

          Good customer support should be required.
          Sometimes the WSO is the method or explanation! Most WSO will state why they are different, but a lot of the buyers will determine how different the WSO really is.

          I do agree with you on customer support. You should not WSO and then run!
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Pete Walker View Post

          It's these very WSO's which bring this forum a bad name from time to time. It would be better to weed out the crap and concentrate on allowing high quality WSO's only. Or at least to have a benchmark high quality standard for acceptance.

          If a WSO fails this benchmark standard, it doesn't go through the system period.
          Originally Posted by Prevalent View Post

          True. That is part of the problem.

          If anyone has ever done business at ThemeForest, you know that they have very high quality standards.

          Designs are rejected all the time and are told their product is not high quality and what to fix.

          WSO's could be the same.

          This is easier said than done.

          If the mods have to vet the quality of the product, then the approval time would increase so much that the WSO sub-forum would slow to a crawl, and it would take weeks to get a new offer approved.

          Plus, if Thomas (or the new people they have to hire to approve WSO's to get them approved) doesn't know about the topic I am writing, then is he really qualified to judge the quality of my product or not?

          If my product contains 2 hours a video, how interested in my topic do you think Thomas will be when he has to sit and listen to it all? He won't be listening because he wants to learn, but because he "has to do it, because it is his job."

          When people are not interested in the topic, they are less inclined to find it worthy of recommendation... Imagine making me sit and watch a week's worth of "As The World Turns"....

          My head would explode 20 minutes into the job.
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          • Profile picture of the author creativeways
            I also believe that it is wrong of people to flame a post if they have not bought or seen the product.

            @Mick Meaney

            I think the person who flamed you or said bad things about your free offer just does not understand the concept of internet marketing since we give free stuff out so that we can gain subscribers to our list. He/She does not understand that the list is very important to the life of the business.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Pete Walker View Post

        They're hardly going to be banned are they, when their thread has just been approved by a moderator.
        Approval by a moderator only means that the copy doesn't violate WF TOS ... nothing more. It is not an endorsement of the product. The moderators NO NOT purchase and try out the WSOs. It is no different than the Classifieds on a newspaper.

        If you buy and it is a scam WSO, contact the Help Desk and tell them and prove it is a scam... and scam doesn't mean that there's too much work involved and you just don't feel like implementing it.

        Nobody holds your hands, I assume, in a Mall or store and tells you what to buy and what not to buy.

        The type of people who are the most let down are the dreamers looking to make a fast buck (or a lot of them) without doing much of anything to earn it. Unfortunately, too many sales pages promise that, but in reality, it just doesn't exist.

        Decide how you want to make money and then when shopping around, look for WSOs that will give you information and tools you need to implement your plan. I rarely ever buy a WSO that I'm disappointed in, but I don't just WSO shop. I shop for information relevant to my business and I usually buy a WSO from the signature link of Warriors I trust and who have a good reputation.

        It's on you to be smart in your purchasing decisions. It's on you not to fall for everything that is typed on a screen.
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        • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          [...]

          The type of people who are the most let down are the dreamers looking to make a fast buck (or a lot of them) without doing much of anything to earn it. Unfortunately, too many sales pages promise that, but in reality, it just doesn't exist.
          [...]
          You are so adept at bubble-popping.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Pete Walker View Post

        They're hardly going to be banned are they, when their thread has just been approved by a moderator.

        Depends on the nature of the offense. I have seen WSO sellers get banned after paying their $40, depending on the severity of the offense committed with their offer.


        One idea that I would like to see implemented is for posts in the WSO to not count, as they don't count in the Off-Topic sub-forum. If the WSO posts stop counting, we will be able to see at a glance whether the person posting the WSO or comment is someone who participates in the rest of the forum. And it will cripple those who are trying to drive up post counts by jumping into WSO threads to post gibberish.
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  • Profile picture of the author UMS
    On the other side of the coin as a buyer of a particular WSO I posted in the thread that there were a couple of issues with the product and bam, shortly after my post was deleted.

    I acknowledge that there's no way of absolutely determining the legitimacy of a post, but the system can also be abused by the WSO owner to get rid of any unfavourable (but honest) reviews.
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    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
      Originally Posted by UMS View Post

      On the other side of the coin as a buyer of a particular WSO I posted in the thread that there were a couple of issues with the product and bam, shortly after my post was deleted.

      I acknowledge that there's no way of absolutely determining the legitimacy of a post, but the system can also be abused by the WSO owner to get rid of any unfavourable (but honest) reviews.
      THAT should not have happened.
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  • Profile picture of the author codenaam
    Hi LB,

    Great you took the time to write this... I know it is irritating but don't let it stop you going for your goals... In the end you'll be proud of what you did and they... well, whatever...
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Two areas where I believe should be policed strictly...

    Firstly, potential customers should have the right to ask QUESTIONS. Any other comments should see the knuckleheads banned permanently IMO.

    Secondly, any review copies should be stated, and any reviews by posters who have like 3 posts and claimed they purchased 4 weeks ago (and their join date is like 3 days ago) should lead to the seller being banned or having the wso banned.
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  • Profile picture of the author sethdrebitko
    I have not created an wso yet but I agree that if you have not purchased a product you should not be able to offer a negative review. I think if an offer truly deserves a garbage review it should ge that but maybe something could be put in place so that you can only comment after purchase.
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    • Profile picture of the author salegurus
      I was fortunate enough to receive a "review copy" of this thread from the OP. Contains no fluff, makes a solid argument and has a no BS approach to....

      Enough of that

      Originally Posted by LB View Post


      I'm not saying that anything should be done to silence legitimate concerns or pre-sales questions.
      Unfortunately there are sellers who will use the TOS to do just that.

      Originally Posted by Prevalent View Post

      I've never released a WSO but I have bought quite a few.

      Personally, I am saddened by the complete loss of quality in the WSO section. Yes, I have bought many, many great WSO's. But there have been several that were absolute garbage and I couldn't believe they were allowed in.

      I feel some of the hostility in the WSO forum has been caused by sellers of terrible WSO's. To keep from further harming the forum, perhaps the sellers of junk WSO's should be banned also.

      I know there are people who are just looking to make trouble for sellers and I think that is despicable. Anyone who sets out to harm another sellers business is a low life.
      Totally agree with you about the increase in poor quality WSO's, looks like every man and his dog have discovered that there's money to be made in the WSO section. A lot of single digit posters now popping up in the WSO section who are experts in one field or another.

      Originally Posted by UMS View Post

      On the other side of the coin as a buyer of a particular WSO I posted in the thread that there were a couple of issues with the product and bam, shortly after my post was deleted.

      I acknowledge that there's no way of absolutely determining the legitimacy of a post, but the system can also be abused by the WSO owner to get rid of any unfavourable (but honest) reviews.
      That's just the thing it's always going to be difficult to strike a balance, yes i agree with the OP but at the same time i have seen a sharp eyed warrior saving people money by spotting inconsistencies attempts to deceive and posting in the thread.

      Originally Posted by Prevalent View Post

      True. That is part of the problem.

      If anyone has ever done business at ThemeForest, you know that they have very high quality standards.
      Designs are rejected all the time and are told their product is not high quality and what to fix.

      WSO's could be the same. I'm not looking for fancy graphics but...
      A thorough explanation of the method should be required.
      A new or novel approach should be required.
      Good customer support should be required.
      Would be great if there was enough manpower to do the same here, although vetting a WSO could be time consuming.

      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post


      Nobody holds your hands, I assume, in a Mall or store and tells you what to buy and what not to buy.

      The type of people who are the most let down are the dreamers looking to make a fast buck (or a lot of them) without doing much of anything to earn it. Unfortunately, too many sales pages promise that, but in reality, it just doesn't exist.

      It's on you to be smart in your purchasing decisions. It's on you not to fall for everything that is typed on a screen.
      I agree that nobody forces you to by a WSO but, if i buy at a store in a mall i am trusting that the store has put their wares through some sort of quality test. If the item is defective i can take it back as long as i have the receipt.
      If i buy a WSO that turns out to be a POS can i go to Allen with my problem, no. I have to trust that the seller is honest and will honor his guarantee. (Not always the case, i have lost my fare share over the years in the WSO section)

      Originally Posted by sethdrebitko View Post

      I have not created an wso yet but I agree that if you have not purchased a product you should not be able to offer a negative review. I think if an offer truly deserves a garbage review it should ge that but maybe something could be put in place so that you can only comment after purchase.
      How are you going to prove who has bought and who has not, it's going to take a lot of man hours to vet everyone who leaves a comment.

      Anyway
      I agree to a certain extent with the OP that comments with intent to harm is a problem and there are people who try to sabotage WSO's

      But, what about friends leaving fake reviews, a seller with multiple ID's giving his WSO a "boost", sellers giving a "bonus" if you leave an "honest" review and my pet peeve review copies.

      To me it looks like there are 2 separate issues to address here...
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

        I agree that nobody forces you to by a WSO but, if i buy at a store in a mall i am trusting that the store has put their wares through some sort of quality test. If the item is defective i can take it back as long as i have the receipt.
        If i buy a WSO that turns out to be a POS can i go to Allen with my problem, no. I have to trust that the seller is honest and will honor his guarantee. (Not always the case, i have lost my fare share over the years in the WSO section)
        You actually think stores put their wares through a quality test? Not so. I can't tell you how much junk I've purchased from stores.

        Most of the WSOs also have a refund policy and if they don't honor it, you can just click on the help desk on WF and report that the seller is not honoring a refund policy.

        If they don't have a refund policy and you are uncomfortable with that, don't buy it. Simple as that.

        I have gained more than my fair share from WSOs ... but I don't buy stupidly and the more outrageous the claims are in a WSO, the less likely I am to buy it.

        But the very few times that I have thought that a WSO that I bought was crap, I just chalked it up to a $7 or $27 lesson. No biggie to me. I take full responsibility for the decisions I make (including buying decisions).

        Some lessons cost a lot more than most of the WSOs do.
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        • Profile picture of the author salegurus
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          You actually think stores put their wares through a quality test? Not so. I can't tell you how much junk I've purchased from stores.

          Most of the WSOs also have a refund policy and if they don't honor it, you can just click on the help desk on WF and report that the seller is not honoring a refund policy.

          If they don't have a refund policy and you are uncomfortable with that, don't buy it. Simple as that.

          I have gained more than my fair share from WSOs ... but I don't buy stupidly and the more outrageous the claims are in a WSO, the less likely I am to buy it.

          But the very few times that I have thought that a WSO that I bought was crap, I just chalked it up to a $7 or $27 lesson. No biggie to me. I take full responsibility for the decisions I make (including buying decisions).

          Some lessons cost a lot more than most of the WSOs do.
          Let me just say that i don't buy those hyped "make $xxxx" in 1 day products, when i buy it's generally a theme, plugin or script that will make my life easier or enhance my site in some way.

          I also take full responsibility for my purchases, but my point is that i'm buying on the principle of trust. If the seller tells me that his/her product is going to perform a certain function and that it will be supported for a certain period that's what i am counting on when i buy.

          If the product fails to deliver i am certainly not going to chalk it up to a $7 or $27 lesson, not because i can't afford it, i just have a thing about liars and conman. And if everybody just "chalks it up to a lesson" they will keep on doing it.

          I await for your response Sir/Mam...
          Respectfully
          Theo
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

            Let me just say that i don't buy those hyped "make " in 1 day products, when i buy it's generally a theme, plugin or script that will make my life easier or enhance my site in some way.

            I also take full responsibility for my purchases, but my point is that i'm buying on the principle of trust. If the seller tells me that his/her product is going to perform a certain function and that it will be supported for a certain period that's what i am counting on when i buy.

            If the product fails to deliver i am certainly not going to chalk it up to a $7 or $27 lesson, not because i can't afford it, i just have a thing about liars and conman. And if everybody just "chalks it up to a lesson" they will keep on doing it.

            I await for your response Sir/Mam...
            Respectfully
            Theo

            Trust is earned. Trust is not earned by just typing some words in an ad. It should not come as any surprise to anyone that there are liars and scammers. If it does come as a surprise, you've been living under a rock your whole life. Buy from those who have earned your trust. I do and I'm happy with 99.8% of the WSOs I buy.

            As for lessons learned by paying $7 or $27 for something I'm not happy with ... I'm not into refunding. If you are, go ahead. If one was offered, get it if you feel shortchanged. It's just not me. The seller has lost a customer and I'm happy with that remedy.
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            • Profile picture of the author salegurus
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              Trust is earned. Trust is not earned by just typing some words in an ad. It should not come as any surprise to anyone that there are liars and scammers. If it does come as a surprise, you've been living under a rock your whole life. Buy from those who have earned your trust. I do and I'm happy with 99.8% of the WSOs I buy.

              As for lessons learned by paying $7 or $27 for something I'm not happy with ... I'm not into refunding. If you are, go ahead. If one was offered, get it if you feel shortchanged. It's just not me. The seller has lost a customer and I'm happy with that remedy.
              You make some good points, but i just have a different opinion.
              I think we can agree to disagree on this one.
              Anyway, i really enjoyed our repartee, time get another cuppa coffee...

              Cheers Mate
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              Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.

              ― George Carlin
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              • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                Originally Posted by precious007 View Post

                Two of my WSO's that made a couple hundred sales back in the day when I've launched them have been completely compromised by idiots that made false claims about my products.

                I'm afraid this can't be stopped entirely, that would basically mean that there should be roughly 5 mods constantly watching each and every WSO to detect these "intruders".
                Why should there be mods to do all the watching?

                It's your product. Your $40. Your thread.

                If someone is making bogus claims about your product, report them. That's what that little triangle thingy is for.

                Originally Posted by Prevalent View Post

                WSO's could be the same. I'm not looking for fancy graphics but...

                A thorough explanation of the method should be required.

                A new or novel approach should be required.

                Good customer support should be required.
                > For many simple WSOs, a "thorough explanation of the method" would completely negate the necessity of buying the WSO.

                Who gets to judge whether an approach is new or novel? As one of the US TV networks used to say, "if you haven't seen it, it's new to you..."

                Who gets to evaluate what is or is not "good" customer service? If the seller is following the published rules (i.e., honoring refunds or having an off-forum communication channel), what else can the forum do unless an issue (with proof) is reported?

                Originally Posted by David Chung View Post

                The solution I'm proposing: Have a Transaction ID field that posters can optionally fill in as proof of purchase.

                Solutions I liked: Require login to see links in WSOs, make WSO posts not count.
                David, from reading several of your posts, I would conclude that you are very likely a very honest individual. And a very trusting one.

                Your solution here presupposes that anyone filling in that filed would do so with an ID that actually corresponds with purchasing the product in the thread where they are posting. Not a bad supposition - if everyone were as honest as you. That's not the case.

                Requiring a login to see links? Nothing in the rules saying non-members are not allowed to buy WSOs, or that members have to be logged in to do so.

                Removing WSO comments from post count is an excellent idea, as it removes one of the reasons for posting nonsense or trying to stir up a debate.

                WSO Sellers:

                Some of the responsibility is on your shoulders, too. If you put up the $40 to open a 'booth' in the marketplace, you should take some responsibility for policing your booth. (I'm using the word 'policing' as in "cleaning up", not as in "law enforcement".

                Monitor your thread and report problem posts. If you ran a retail store, would wait for the cops to patrol your store against shoplifters and vandals? Or would you watch out for the same yourself?

                Maybe we need to add a sticky link to this post:

                http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...moderator.html

                for the WSO forum, too.

                I very rarely go into the WSO forum because I usually end up spending more time reporting shills, spammers and saboteurs than I do shopping for the product I came looking for...
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Bill's suggestion to not count posts in the WSO section has been set up. I suspect it will only ignore future posts, but that should start showing useful benefits pretty quickly.

                  Thanks, Bill. That's the first practical new suggestion for improving things in that part of the forum, other than making signatures invisible, in a long time. It doesn't impose any new rules, takes nothing away from anyone, and provides measurable benefits to all the members who use that section. Well, except for the folks who use ONLY that section.

                  Yes, this can be gamed, but doing so will be obvious, and won't have any significant impact on the rest of the forum. If they start heading out into the discussion sections to rack up a few one-liners so they don't look like WS-Onlys, they'll draw attention to themselves for that, and likely end up having all their posts removed.

                  They'll hang themselves. Works for me.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    Bill's suggestion to not count posts in the WSO section has been set up. I suspect it will only ignore future posts, but that should start showing useful benefits pretty quickly.

                    Thanks, Bill. That's the first practical new suggestion for improving things in that part of the forum, other than making signatures invisible, in a long time. It doesn't impose any new rules, takes nothing away from anyone, and provides measurable benefits to all the members who use that section. Well, except for the folks who use ONLY that section.

                    Paul
                    Paul, maybe you can give Bill a few extra clicks on his 'thanks' button, and he can put that damn harmonica away... :p
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            • Profile picture of the author Rachel Zaouche
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              The seller has lost a customer and I'm happy with that remedy.

              I think thats a great attitude. While I agree with the other points made on here, most of the solutions are impractical simply because there are not enough people to implement them.

              we have to take ownership of our own threads and report those who flout the rules.

              When it comes to buying wsos, if people buy from those that they trust who are either offering their own products or making recommendations, it can save a lot of headaches.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Chung
    I like CDarklock's idea of stripping WSO links for non-Warrior's...
    And twp's idea of WSO posts not adding to your post count...

    Here's a couple ideas of my own... just brainstorming some solutions.

    -Require every post in the WSO section to include the product name, or it can't be posted. That way they have to talk about the product or mention it at least once, which will force people to focus on the WSO rather than going off topic.

    -Have a 'verified transaction' feature that either integrates with PayPal, or the seller updates a list of Transaction IDs/PayPal emails.
    Each poster has the option to 'Prove your purchase' by typing in their transaction ID/Paypal email. Then each post would have some Verified/Not Verified notification on it.
    Now you'll have a way of knowing for sure if someone is a buyer. This will help determine the fake negative reviews. If there isn't actual PayPal integration it won't address the fake positive reviews though.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by David Chung View Post

      Here's a couple ideas of my own... just brainstorming some solutions.

      -Require every post in the WSO section to include the product name, or it can't be posted. That way they have to talk about the product or mention it at least once, which will force people to focus on the WSO rather than going off topic.

      -Have a 'verified transaction' feature that either integrates with PayPal, or the seller updates a list of Transaction IDs/PayPal emails.
      Each poster has the option to 'Prove your purchase' by typing in their transaction ID/Paypal email. Then each post would have some Verified/Not Verified notification on it.
      Now you'll have a way of knowing for sure if someone is a buyer. This will help determine the fake negative reviews. If there isn't actual PayPal integration it won't address the fake positive reviews though.

      Over-complicated ideas have no chance of implementation, especially when the programming hurdles are too high and when the ideas do not take into account all possible situations.

      Not to shut you down, but to let you know that few ideas get implemented without concern to simplification of the entire process for programmers, vendors and buyers.

      Besides, people should be allowed to ask questions and if we require a transaction id, no one would be able to post questions.

      And, the payments are not integrated at all with WF per se, so WF would have no way to verify the transaction ids.
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      • Profile picture of the author David Chung
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Over-complicated ideas have no chance of implementation, especially when the programming hurdles are too high and when the ideas do not take into account all possible situations.

        Not to shut you down, but to let you know that few ideas get implemented without concern to simplification of the entire process for programmers, vendors and buyers.

        Besides, people should be allowed to ask questions and if we require a transaction id, no one would be able to post questions.

        And, the payments are not integrated at all with WF per se, so WF would have no way to verify the transaction ids.
        I see your point about the solution being too complicated.

        I did suggest allowing sellers to update their own list of transaction ids/emails. And the posts' ids would somehow check against the seller's manually updated list. But it does complicate things as you say.

        Wasn't suggesting requiring Transaction IDs though. Just the option to use them to add credibility to your post.

        Even just a little box for people to optionally "copy+paste your Transaction ID here" would add a little credibility. Visible to everybody or mods and OP only. Then the seller could at least check the transaction id to see if it's a real buyer.

        It doesn't have to be complicated.

        Just trying to put the focus more on what can be done. I think we've more or less got the problem down. But what could the solution(s) be?
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        • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
          Interesting topic.

          There are naysayers and trouble makers but there are also people who post when things aren'r right, I am one of them. I have no issue if someone has a question about an offer, I have no issue if someone leaves a bad review based on experience, or if the review being given is outing a scammer. That is healthy and one way we can protect each other by catching things like that.

          However. People posting just to bash a thread I believe the rules have been updated that will lead to a ban I am pretty positive that has been added so the forum is trying to keep order IMO
          -WD
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    • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
      Originally Posted by Prevalent View Post

      ...Personally, I am saddened by the complete loss of quality in the WSO section.
      Personally, I am grateful for the quality in the WSO section.

      Though it's been around for a relatively long time I think it's a special and unique market place and I find it warming that there are so many intelligent people putting thought into how to keep it going.

      I think Janice's comments below have merrit...

      Originally Posted by Janice Sperry

      For transparency I would like to see at a minimum.

      The first words of a post MUST include one or more of the following:

      I bought the product.
      I read/tried the product.
      I did not buy the product.
      I am an affiliate.
      I received a review copy.

      Any post that does not start with one or more of those sentences gets deleted. Most of the experienced long-timers here already post these things. Full disclosure is a classy thing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Don Luis
      Banned
      I suggest that the WSO should be divided or classified into sections, such as those for newbies or advanced marketers. Some people will say that this and that WSO is crap just because it was geared towards beginners and does not contain any groundbreaking strategies. That way, you can choose which WSOs to buy depending on your skill or experience level.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Lim
    Same things happen to me, a kid not happy with the product that was bought and request a refund. Then he uses another account to spam some non-sense message on my thread, claiming he is one of the victim.

    I trace the "thanks count" from his profile, all "thanks count" is coming from that kid!

    Such a kid.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Same thing happened to one of my WSOs as well.

      Simply put, these people should be permanently banned from the forum.

      I have ZERO tolerance for this crap.

      And that's all I'm saying on the subject as I don't want to raise my blood
      pressure anymore than it is now.
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    • Profile picture of the author moneymax
      LB

      I feel your pain when it comes to negative comments on WSO's. If it is warranted, I think a person should be allowed to leave a negative comment. As far as all of these people that are jumping on the band wagon and perpetuating the negative comment...I don't think that should be allowed. If you bought the product and you feel that the product is bad, then by all means, leave a negative comment, but state why and
      possibly a solution to improve it...don't just see someones negative comment a beat a man further down without looking at his program.

      On the other side of the coin, I have a problem of WSO sellers giving away something else, just for leaving a postive comment on their program, especially if the program is bad. That is what is wrong with this IM thingy. A guru comes out with a CRAPPY program and everyone and their brother is out there promoting it, just to make a quick buck. How cheap do we sell our souls for....amazes me.

      Upsells...I HATE an upsell, not so much because it is an upsell...sometimes I buy the upsell because It has substance. I would much rather know going into it, if the seller has an upsell and how many. I have seen as many as 5 upsells. Makes me want to ask for a refund right then and there.

      As far as number of post comment, you are not being fair to us. Although not new to WF, I don't leave many comments, but I feel (such as this post, I do offer value) and I don't want to Spam (what is the new word - Blue Fart, I believe) the forum, but leave it better than when I started.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Whilst it may be difficult to moderate, I like the idea of providing a transaction number in order to comment.

    Sadly, there are too many people online who have yet to tap into, or discover the maximum potential of their IQ and intelligence.

    And until we fix this, nothing will change.
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  • Profile picture of the author MattVit
    I agree it is unfair, especially when you pay $40 to list it. However, if you have a poor quality product, or a spammy product or something illegal or loop-hole'y (heh, my new word - loop-hole'y!) then I don't see anything wrong with it.

    What if I made a WSO called:
    "Selling Elephants via the internet - receive it in 20 days!"
    "That's right. For only $2,000 (you'll need to pay for your own ticket to Africa), I will sell you an Elephant. It should be somewhere in Africa, not too sure where, just go on a safari and you'll find (the) one!"

    ...what a brilliant idea. Keep your eyes peeled for my next WSO!
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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Originally Posted by MattVit View Post

      I agree it is unfair, especially when you pay $40 to list it. However, if you have a poor quality product, or a spammy product or something illegal or loop-hole'y (heh, my new word - loop-hole'y!) then I don't see anything wrong with it.

      What if I made a WSO called:
      "Selling Elephants via the internet - receive it in 20 days!"
      "That's right. For only $2,000 (you'll need to pay for your own ticket to Africa), I will sell you an Elephant. It should be somewhere in Africa, not too sure where, just go on a safari and you'll find (the) one!"

      ...what a brilliant idea. Keep your eyes peeled for my next WSO!
      I'll be 1st in line to buy. Elephants over the internet? Count me in!
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  • Profile picture of the author electroglyder
    Maybe it's time that all WSO'S that are being released to the forum,go through a quality control, before being released to the public.
    I for one am tired of buying crap!
    No names named ,those that are guilty know themselves.
    Half products ,I mean those that start of promising the whole internet,and then piling up-sell after upsell on you,make me want to puke.
    What the hell is wrong with offering a product that really would work?
    We should take pride in what we have to offer our fellow Warriors.
    There is far too much negativity all over,why cant we here at least try to be good to each other?
    I haven't been here long,But I have bought my share of WSO's and until now Iv'e Thrown EVERY single one out.
    WHY,you might ask. It's because every single one has been Not worth the after thought.
    I am not whining,but I 100% understand those that don't have any other means to express themselves except by splurting out "Negative" comments!
    Straighten out the front end ,and the back end will straighten itself out !
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    To be fair maybe those buyers have bought something similar and were so disappointed they didn't want anyone falling into the same trap, but ideally threads should be for those who have bought the product
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    These threads come about every few weeks and the same is said each time. It doesn't matter what new rules you try to implement, the trouble makers will always find a way around them. Paul has stated that they would be more than happy to implement an idea if it were to stop any of these issues but none of the suggestions being made would actually remove the problem - it might make it harder or more difficult for people to do so, but the problem would still exist.

    If you want to take the GOOD part of allowing people to leave comments in your WSO thread then you also have to be prepared to take the bad. If you suspect someone has posted a negative review without purchasing your product then report the post and move on... just like you would if you saw a problem post anywhere else on the forum.

    Yes there are probably some trouble makers leaving comments in the WSO forum... but there are also vendors breaking the rules as well... it's not just the customers who are the problem.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      This is an inconvenient truth.

      Is that you Al?



      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      These threads come about every few weeks and the same is said each time. It doesn't matter what new rules you try to implement, the trouble makers will always find a way around them. Paul has stated that they would be more than happy to implement an idea if it were to stop any of these issues but none of the suggestions being made would actually remove the problem - it might make it harder or more difficult for people to do so, but the problem would still exist.

      If you want to take the GOOD part of allowing people to leave comments in your WSO thread then you also have to be prepared to take the bad. If you suspect someone has posted a negative review without purchasing your product then report the post and move on... just like you would if you saw a problem post anywhere else on the forum.

      Yes there are probably some trouble makers leaving comments in the WSO forum... but there are also vendors breaking the rules as well... it's not just the customers who are the problem.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Chung
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      These threads come about every few weeks and the same is said each time. It doesn't matter what new rules you try to implement, the trouble makers will always find a way around them. Paul has stated that they would be more than happy to implement an idea if it were to stop any of these issues but none of the suggestions being made would actually remove the problem - it might make it harder or more difficult for people to do so, but the problem would still exist.
      I see the logic in this argument, but in my view it sounds a little like saying criminals will always find a way around the law, no law instituted would actually eliminate crime, it might make it harder for criminals to commit crimes, but crime would still exist. So...we should stop making new laws??

      If it keeps popping up then clearly there's a problem, and any existing solutions either don't work or aren't being implemented properly (like maybe not enough members helping to report posts?).

      BUT then again, in the end it's not our forum and not our choice to make. I'm not sure if that means we should just say 'oh well' and not even talk about it though. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.

      Well at least I think we can agree on "If you see something, say something."
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  • Profile picture of the author ColinChia
    AFFILIATED REVIEWs IS MAKING WSO's LOOK LIKE A CIRCUS!

    Testimonials for $5 on Fiverr - The Cheek!
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by ColinChia View Post

      Testimonials for $5 on Fiverr - The Cheek!
      WSOs with fake or purchased testimonials should be reported. The sellers generally have their WSOs deleted and their accounts banned. The mods do not take this sort of thing lightly.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Devid Farah
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post


        WSOs with fake or purchased testimonials should be reported. The sellers generally have their WSOs deleted and their accounts banned. The mods do not take this sort of thing lightly.
        This is totally true and i agree.

        I saw many wsos (even from respected members) full of fake testimonials bought on fiverr...
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Shay,
          If someone asks for a review copy and promises to leave a good review in exchange, can we simply report the PM?
          Yes. Please do.

          David,
          How about this - anyone can see the full sales letter, but a special [warriorsonly][/warriorsonly] code allows you to lock sections of the offer so that only Warriors can see it. So you can have a regular buy button and a locked discount button only visible Warriors.
          I don't know that this would work, but I personally like the idea. A lot. I'd have to think about the implications, but nothing horrible springs to mind immediately.

          Anyone know if vBulletin supports anything like this?

          That's two new ideas on this subject. That may be the most in a single thread in the past 8 or 10 years. I'm liking this.

          Devid,
          I saw many wsos (even from respected members) full of fake testimonials bought on fiverr...
          If you see them any more, report them. That is now grounds for firing up the orbital laser death-ray platform.

          "Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
            David,

            How about this - anyone can see the full sales letter, but a special [warriorsonly][/warriorsonly] code allows you to lock sections of the offer so that only Warriors can see it. So you can have a regular buy button and a locked discount button only visible Warriors.
            This seems to be a great idea but...

            If you block the warrior price button from a regular visitors/guest's view that's great as they are not an official member of the forums so in reality they shouldn't be getting a warrior price.

            BUT!

            You'd have to also hide the "regular" price button from registered members and they'd have to be logged into the forum before making a purchase to be able to see the warrior price button.

            Then, you'd have to make sure that when logged in the warrior no longer sees the NONE member price button.

            Here's why,

            People don't pay attention sometimes and if presented with two buttons I already know I'll be refunding some one because they clicked the wrong payment button and paid the non warrior price. So I refund and ask them to go through the process all over again. It also creates a customer segment problem for merchants as well. None warrior buyers and registered user buyers.

            Another possible solution is to simply ask the non registered user to register a free account with the forum in order to get the WF member pricing.

            This is a win for the forum but...not as much of a win for the merchant as it creates a sort of barrier to entry to buy a merchants product. Some people just don't want to register an account, they merely want to buy a product and move on.

            Granted the forum is exclusive but not so exclusive that the WSO forum is private to all non registered users.

            What are the implications for WSOPRO sellers and affiliates? Many of the wsopro affiliates send out emails to their lists and a percentage of those recipients never even visit the forum and just end up purchasing directly from the email. no? I might be wrong on this account as I don't use WSOPRO as a merchant. = )
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            • Profile picture of the author David Chung
              Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

              You'd have to also hide the "regular" price button from registered members and they'd have to be logged into the forum before making a purchase to be able to see the warrior price button.

              Then, you'd have to make sure that when logged in the warrior no longer sees the NONE member price button.

              Here's why,

              People don't pay attention sometimes and if presented with two buttons I already know I'll be refunding some one because they clicked the wrong payment button and paid the non warrior price. So I refund and ask them to go through the process all over again.
              Good point. Since it's just code though you can adapt it to different things. Like Warrior only bonuses that you can simply email out if they bought from the wrong button.

              Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

              It also creates a customer segment problem for merchants as well. None warrior buyers and registered user buyers.
              If it's an offer available to the general public with a special discount for Warriors, shouldn't there already be a customer segmentation 'problem' anyway?

              Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

              What are the implications for WSOPRO sellers and affiliates? Many of the wsopro affiliates send out emails to their lists and a percentage of those recipients never even visit the forum and just end up purchasing directly from the email. no? I might be wrong on this account as I don't use WSOPRO as a merchant. = )
              Good point as well. I just tried WSO Pro out for the first time and I love it. Well if you use WSO Pro you can just not use the code . Or use it to offer bonuses rather than different buy buttons. (e.g. Warriors, email me here (hidden email, googlebot doesn't index it ) with your transaction ID to set up a skype session!)
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          • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            I don't know that this would work, but I personally like the idea. A lot. I'd have to think about the implications, but nothing horrible springs to mind immediately.
            Has Allen given up with the forum these days then Paul?
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Les,
              Has Allen given up with the forum these days then Paul?
              Nope. He just okayed the change to post counts re: the WSO section yesterday.

              I try to consider potential problems and benefits so I have an understanding of what might be involved before I suggest changes. Doesn't stop anyone else from suggesting them to him, of course. In the end, he's the one who makes decisions on policy. Same as always.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Les,Nope. He just okayed the change to post counts re: the WSO section yesterday.
                Paul, will the change also be implemented in the other paid to advertise
                forums?

                Have a Great Day!
                Michael
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Michael,
                  Paul, will the change also be implemented in the other paid to advertise forums?
                  Haven't discussed it. Let's see if it has the desired effect in one section first.


                  Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author inspiredguy
          Originally Posted by Devid Farah View Post

          I saw many wsos (even from respected members) full of fake testimonials bought on fiverr...
          How are you able to determine that testimonials were purchased from fiverr? I would like to be able to spot that since I buy a lot of wso's!
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          • Profile picture of the author Devid Farah
            Originally Posted by inspiredguy View Post


            How are you able to determine that testimonials were purchased from fiverr? I would like to be able to spot that since I buy a lot of wso's!
            Hi,

            well, first off that's very simple;

            i have worked on Fiverr and use it very much so i can easily recognize them and i noticed that the same guys who offer testimonial gigs on fiverr are the same here on many wsos....

            Second, go on fiverr and type "testimonial" on the search bar and when results appear, see if that particular guy is the same on the wso sales letter....

            Pretty easy.

            Best,
            Devid
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  • Profile picture of the author DeborahDera
    When you see these things, I'd suggest responding that you do not believe this person actually purchased the WSO and, as a result, has no grounds for comment. At least that will be something for your readers and visitors to see before the posts are deleted.

    I'm not sure how valid David's post is, but I like the idea of having buyers validate their purchases before leaving a review. The flag would make it possible for buyers and non-buyers to post (which is necessary or others won't be able to ask questions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Henri Lind
    I'm seeing some 1 post members here too, with many-many thanks.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by David Chung View Post

      I see the logic in this argument, but in my view it sounds a little like saying criminals will always find a way around the law, no law instituted would actually eliminate crime, it might make it harder for criminals to commit crimes, but crime would still exist. So...we should stop making new laws??
      We are talking about two very different things. No one is breaking the law here by posting on a WSO thread... and I never said new rules should not be implemented. What I said was the mods don't see the point in implementing any new rules if they are not going to eliminate the problem - there's no point in doing so. So far I have not seen any suggestions in this thread that would eliminate the problem and that is why things will continue on as they are.

      Originally Posted by mr2monster View Post

      that would actually be a really good "required field" option in order to make a post..

      i.e. someone clicks on reply and they have to fill that out before they are able to post. Then, it could post that info above their post, or color code it or something..
      Is this something that is going to eliminate the problem the OP is talking about? No. If someone is out to ruin your thread they will still post whether or not they have to select an extra simple field before they do so.
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      • Profile picture of the author David Chung
        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        We are talking about two very different things. No one is breaking the law here by posting on a WSO thread... and I never said new rules should not be implemented. What I said was the mods don't see the point in implementing any new rules if they are not going to eliminate the problem - there's no point in doing so. So far I have not seen any suggestions in this thread that would eliminate the problem and that is why things will continue on as they are.
        I agree that no one is breaking a law by posting. That was not the point of the analogy though. I was trying to apply the logic used in that argument in a different situation to demonstrate why I felt it didn't make sense.

        Non buying posters purposefully harming a wso (breaking a forum rule) + proposed solutions cannot completely eliminate the problem = do nothing

        Using the same logic:

        Criminals purposefully breaking the law + no new laws proposed can completely eliminate crime = don't bother to make new laws

        Or if you prefer a different analogy:

        Earthquakes cause damage + no currently proposed solutions can completely eliminate earthquakes = don't do anything at all to reduce damage from earthquakes

        So I'm just trying to demonstrate why I don't agree with that logic. Not implying that this forum situation has anything to do with law making or earthquakes.
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        • Profile picture of the author WillR
          Originally Posted by David Chung View Post

          I agree that no one is breaking a law by posting. That was not the point of the analogy though. I was trying to apply the logic used in that argument in a different situation to demonstrate why I felt it didn't make sense.

          Non buying posters purposefully harming a wso (breaking a forum rule) + proposed solutions cannot completely eliminate the problem = do nothing

          Using the same logic:

          Criminals purposefully breaking the law + no new laws proposed can completely eliminate crime = don't bother to make new laws

          Or if you prefer a different analogy:

          Earthquakes cause damage + no currently proposed solutions can completely eliminate earthquakes = don't do anything at all to reduce damage from earthquakes

          So I'm just trying to demonstrate why I don't agree with that logic. Not implying that this forum situation has anything to do with law making or earthquakes.
          Ok, using your logic.

          Earthquakes cause damage + no currently proposed solutions can completely eliminate earthquakes. Let's put a fridge in the middle of the desert and hope that eliminates the problem.

          Problem still exists. D'oh. What a waste of time.

          There are already a lot of rules surrounding WSO's. You can find them all here:

          http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...29-2011-a.html

          So no, this forum is NOT doing nothing about it. They have already implemented a lot of rules to try and combat all the problems. What I am saying is there is no point adding extra rules (just for the sake of it) that are not going to have any meaningful impact on the situation.
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          • Profile picture of the author David Chung
            Originally Posted by WillR View Post

            Ok, using your logic.

            Earthquakes cause damage + no currently proposed solutions can completely eliminate earthquakes. Let's put a fridge in the middle of the desert and hope that eliminates the problem.

            Problem still exists. D'oh. What a waste of time.

            There are already a lot of rules surrounding WSO's. You can find them all here:

            http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...29-2011-a.html

            So no, this forum is NOT doing nothing about it. They have already implemented a lot of rules to try and combat all the problems. What I am saying is there is no point adding extra rules (just for the sake of it) that are not going to have any meaningful impact on the situation.
            I see the confusion here WillR. The "new laws" thing was just an analogy to demonstrate why I didn't agree with that logic. I wasn't proposing that new rules be added.

            I also see that things have been done in the past, such as all the rules you linked to. What I was getting at was that it did not seem to be adequate and that perhaps some things could be changed to control the damage. For example, people actually using the report button when they see something.

            The solution I'm proposing: Have a Transaction ID field that posters can optionally fill in as proof of purchase.

            Solutions I liked: Require login to see links in WSOs, make WSO posts not count.

            If you still feel that these proposed solutions have the same effect as "putting a fridge in the middle of a desert" in answer to an earthquake, then that's probably where we'll have to disagree.
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            • Profile picture of the author WillR
              You know I love a good argument David!

              Originally Posted by David Chung View Post

              The solution I'm proposing: Have a Transaction ID field that posters can optionally fill in as proof of purchase.
              Who is to say the transaction id they enter is legitimate? A nuisance poster can easily enter a random transaction id. I always see people post transaction id's in their reviews but it doesn't mean I believe them anymore than the next person. So does this really solve anything? I don't believe so.

              Originally Posted by David Chung View Post

              Solutions I liked: Require login to see links in WSOs
              If you do this you are going to see a BIG decrease in the amount of traffic to the WSO forum and a BIG increase in the amount of people signing up for an account simply so they can view the forum. I don't think this is REALLY a solution that is going to benefit the WSO forum in any way. The extra traffic far outweighs the very small minority of trouble makers that come as a result of that traffic. Besides, the trouble makers we are talking about here are leaving posts so they are already registered members.

              Originally Posted by David Chung View Post

              Make WSO posts not count.
              This might be a better way to see if the person has contributed elsewhere on the forum however I don't believe it is NOT going to stop people posting their nuisance remarks.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                I think that fake testimonials are a big problem!
                Not like they used to be. The rule forbidding paid videos stopped a lot of it, and publicly nuking a few dozen shills didn't hurt. They'll never be completely gone, though. Too many new people thinking they're the first to have the idea for that to happen.

                Response: If you spot them, report them.


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                • Profile picture of the author tpw
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Not like they used to be. The rule forbidding paid videos stopped a lot of it, and publicly nuking a few dozen shills didn't hurt. They'll never be completely gone, though. Too many new people thinking they're the first to have the idea for that to happen.

                  Response: If you spot them, report them.


                  Paul

                  Does that include people who guarantee a good review in exchange for a review copy?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                    Does that include people who guarantee a good review in exchange for a review copy?
                    Yes.

                    And yes, again, just to hit the 10 character limit.
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                    • Profile picture of the author ShayB
                      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                      Does that include people who guarantee a good review in exchange for a review copy?
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Yes.

                      And yes, again, just to hit the 10 character limit.
                      If someone asks for a review copy and promises to leave a good review in exchange, can we simply report the PM?

                      Or is there some other procedure we should use?

                      Or is that a violation? (Given the quoted exchange, I would think it would be.)
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                  • Profile picture of the author WillR
                    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                    Does that include people who guarantee a good review in exchange for a review copy?
                    IMO anyone contacting you and asking you for review copies are people we should all be staying well clear of... massive time wasters.
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              • Profile picture of the author David Chung
                Originally Posted by WillR View Post

                You know I love a good argument David!
                Who is to say the transaction id they enter is legitimate? A nuisance poster can easily enter a random transaction id. I always see people post transaction id's in their reviews but it doesn't mean I believe them anymore than the next person. So does this really solve anything? I don't believe so.
                I did say that after this was entered, to maybe make it visible to only the admins/OP so that the seller had a way of checking who was a real customer and who wasn't. So it would be useful for the seller to know whether they should report a post or not - whether a comment is a legitimate customer with a complaint. I do concede that this wouldn't be as useful unless there was real payment integration with the Warrior Forum, which like Paul said probably isn't going to happen.

                Originally Posted by WillR View Post

                If you do this you are going to see a BIG decrease in the amount of traffic to the WSO forum and a BIG increase in the amount of people signing up for an account simply so they can view the forum. I don't think this is REALLY a solution that is going to benefit the WSO forum in any way. The extra traffic far outweighs the very small minority of trouble makers that come as a result of that traffic. Besides, the trouble makers we are talking about here are leaving posts so they are already registered members.
                After sleeping over it I realize that you're right WillR, it doesn't really solve the problem of comment dumping on threads. But I do still think it would benefit the forum.

                I feel that forcing users to register to buy would increase the amount of people who would potentially post feedback in the thread (you've already signed up, so why not). And every buyer would have a Warrior Forum username so you could PM them or look at their post history to see whether they're a troublemaker or a real member.

                WillR and Tina have a good point about the reduced sales - I don't like it either :p, but if the WSO section is meant to be special offers for warriors then it just means I'm losing sales I wasn't supposed to be making in the first place.

                How about this - anyone can see the full sales letter, but a special [warriorsonly][/warriorsonly] code allows you to lock sections of the offer so that only Warriors can see it. So you can have a regular buy button and a locked discount button only visible Warriors.
                The WSO stays a special for warriors, people who aren't warriors can still buy but don't get the special because they aren't a warrior. You sell to Warriors, you make money. You sell to non-Warriors, you make even more money. The offer then becomes special only for Warriors, without the WSO creator having to create a separate sales page for non-warriors. Thus reducing the problem some people have with WSOs becoming merely a "buy my stuff" section.
                I don't know how hard a "you have to be logged in to see this particular part of the post" code would be, but if it was possible this might be a good way to make WSOs special again.


                Anyhow, the simpler solution of wso-posts-not-counting feature has been implemented so let's hope that helps.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        This paragraph sums up a big chunk of the problem:
        Personally, I am saddened by the complete loss of quality in the WSO section. Yes, I have bought many, many great WSO's. But there have been several that were absolute garbage and I couldn't believe they were allowed in.
        So many issues in such a small space; First, the people approving these things don't review the products. They don't know which ones are junk and which aren't.

        Next, "complete loss of quality" is at odds with "many, many great" and "several garbage."

        Bill,
        One idea that I would like to see implemented is for posts in the WSO to not count, as they don't count in the Off-Topic sub-forum. If the WSO posts stop counting, we will be able to see at a glance whether the person posting the WSO or comment is someone who participates in the rest of the forum.
        Excellent idea. I've just passed it along with a recommendation we do this. That doesn't mean it will happen, mind you. But I like this. A lot.

        Garrie,

        Either someone goofed, or you didn't state that you had seen the demo. Or both. That sort of comment is entirely legitimate, and actively encouraged. Assuming it was kept to the product and not bashing the seller, of course.

        electroglyder,
        I for one am tired of buying crap!
        Then be pickier about what you buy. Don't purchase anything that promises specific income or search engine results, for example. Those are the most common traits of problem offers.


        General notes: Asking pre-order questions is also fine. They should be limited to the product, too. The WSO section is NOT the place for debate about the effectiveness of various techniques, or whether OTOs are acceptable, or any of that other stuff.

        It is also not the place to go on a rampage against a person, with multiple nasty and insulting posts full of personal attacks. Either by sellers or buyers. I've handed out plenty of time-outs for that sort of thing. It's almost a daily occurrence at this point.

        As far as shills... We find 'em, we nuke 'em.

        We've also started removing the "I'll wait for more reviews" comments. They're pointless.

        Someone mentioned the "WSO reviewers," whose sites or lists are built around that service, acting like they're kings or queens of the WSO forum. A few of them have found out recently that this is not going to be allowed. Some in polite terms, some not so much.

        Same with sellers who get caught trying to get legitimate reviews with negative tones deleted. If the review is from an actual buyer and stays within the guidelines, reporting it is likely to do them more harm than good. It's not unusual for a seller to get a temp ban for this. Yet another reason for having some means of contact with your customers that doesn't depend on the forum.

        That is, by the way, a requirement. If you don't have a reliable way for customers to contact you outside the forum, we'll close your offer until you do.

        I think it's funny when I check a WSO and see someone ranting on for 5 or 6 posts about how terrible it is that the mods haven't done anything about an offer and realize the person howling has never bothered to report the issue. Sometimes it's because they're new and don't know the process. That's understandable. But it's often from people who have been here for years and have reported spam in their own threads.

        The urge to ban those people for a month is a powerful thing.

        The same is true for sellers who get into lengthy debates with members about things that have nothing to do with the product. Or who go off on a member whose comments would be deleted if reported. One fellow recently mentioned to me that a WSO of his had been derailed by another member on a rant. It cascaded into a train wreck, which could have been avoided if the problem had been reported with the first post.

        The moderation system here is primarily report-driven. If you don't tell us about an issue, it isn't likely to be noticed. If we don't know about it, we're not going to be able to do much about it.

        Same with complaints about the sub-forums. Don't gripe about how bad they are if you haven't reported the problems you see.


        Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author jimbobo2779
    I agree, it is always sad to see reviews (negative or positive) from people that have never even seen the product.

    I do know that from my experiences issues tend to get sorted by mods pretty quickly on this forum and I imagine the WSO forum to be just as well moderated. If it is reported and genuinely is a bad post I imagine it would get removed pretty quickly.
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  • Profile picture of the author grandstar
    The solution to this problem is simple- admin should create a win-win-win situation.

    One that favors seller, prospective buyers and finally buyers.

    Perhaps, admin should seek the assistance of warriors in finding a solution that favors all parties.

    Perhaps a rating system should be created for sellers such as on ebay and amazon. This will guard against sellers putting up crap or underdelivering on their promise.

    Lets put heads together. Some are bigger than others
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    i certainly empathize with the op and others this happens too. however any wso seller has the right to sell their product via any advertising method they see fit.

    some of those methods have potential negatives..like the WF. Just like those that focus on SEO and do great for a bit and then get google danced to the back of the line.

    i would be all for a "rules quiz" that must be passed before posting in any forum. lets be honest, that would improve the quality of posts 5x, but thats not a realistic option.

    if you want to have ultimate control of every aspect of the sales page for your product, the WSO section is probably just not the section to launch your product in. you have to know going in that any thread can take a turn in a negative direction at almost anytime. we have all seen it over and over again.

    no one is forcing anyone to launch their product in the WSO section.

    i also think a big part of the reason the negative reviews seem to hold so much weight is because the WSO section is overrun with incentivised positive reviews , and very few realistic honest reviews.

    but dont get me wrong, people should be help responsible for their actions / WF posts. however, like real world terrorists, its hard to deter those who dont give a sh*t about their reputation.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      The more hoops you make people jump through, the less likely it is that you will see meaningful feedback in the WSO threads.

      Requiring a login to see links in WSOs will drop your sales - is that really what you want?

      The best suggestion I've seen that might actually have some positive impact is Bill's. Having the WSO section not add to post count will help, I think. It certainly couldn't hurt, like most of the other ideas.

      And of course, reporting the problem posts each and every time you see them.
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  • Profile picture of the author electroglyder
    Quoting out of context is also a problem!
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      David,
      The solution I'm proposing: Have a Transaction ID field that posters can optionally fill in as proof of purchase.
      The only way that would be useful is if the forum handled all the transactions for every WSO. That is not going to happen.

      electroglyder,
      Quoting out of context is also a problem!
      You suggested a "solution" which has been offered many, many times, and which has been answered in this thread. Specifically:
      Maybe it's time that all WSO'S that are being released to the forum,go through a quality control, before being released to the public.
      Count the number of new WSOs that are released daily. Then come up with an average time needed to vet them before approval. Then take into account the wide range of topics, and the expertise needed to make proper assessments of each.

      How many people do you think would be needed to be handle those reviews?

      Then consider that this would be like the forum giving an endorsement to any offer that was approved. That is simply not going to happen.

      My response was a workable solution that each person can implement on their own. Seems in context to me.


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  • Profile picture of the author Celeste Green
    There will always be people who like to complain or bash – especially against those people who are successful. It’s too bad they can’t channel that negative energy into a useful, productive outlet. But I guess that's just one more quality that separates successful IMers from the naysayer wannabes.


    I’m sorry to hear the headache you had with your thread! That sounded like such a mess.
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  • Profile picture of the author maxmed
    I think that fake testimonials are a big problem !
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  • Profile picture of the author Sam Sinopoli
    I agree with a lot of the stuff being posted here. I think it is terrible to screw up someone's wso for any reason. If you bought it and thought it was a scam, ask for a refund through a PM. But the one thing that bothers me are WSOs that have a forced opt in to receive a product that you just paid for. I have been spammed by many WSO sellers and I don't want to be forced to opt in if I don't trust the seller for some reason.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by samsin1 View Post

      I agree with a lot of the stuff being posted here. I think it is terrible to screw up someone's wso for any reason. If you bought it and thought it was a scam, ask for a refund through a PM. But the one thing that bothers me are WSOs that have a forced opt in to receive a product that you just paid for. I have been spammed by many WSO sellers and I don't want to be forced to opt in if I don't trust the seller for some reason.
      I disagree that feedback should be given through PM. That completely negates the value to the rest of the forum.

      I don't believe people should simply post "I want a refund". That is just as valueless as "waiting for reviews". Either give your reasons for your issues with the product or keep it private.

      The forced optin is only an issue if it's not disclosed and they're using PayPal. That is against PayPal's AUP and could get them shut down. Despite that having been made clear over and over again, you still see it happening.

      However, it only takes an additional couple of seconds to UNSUBSCRIBE right after getting your product so it's really a very petty thing to complain about.

      And if you don't trust the seller enough to be on his list, why on earth do you trust him enough to give him money?

      One more point, it's NOT spam if you agreed to be emailed. I don't care if they send you 50 emails per day or they're nothing but junk, if you confirmed your subscription, it is NOT SPAM.

      Why is the one-click unsubscribe process such a difficult thing for so many people?
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  • Profile picture of the author Kai Pei
    The whole, "I won't buy a product because it comes with an upsell" argument is really naive and juvenile.

    I can't even express how many times I've purchased a product with killer upsell content and ended up happy as pie that I bought.

    Plus, if you really hate the content, then return it for a refund.

    These complainers are probably the same people that have never sold a single product or made a single dollar online.

    I'm sure that these are the same people that drink their coffee without cream or sugar.

    I'm sure that these are the same people that eat a burger without fries and a coke.

    I'm sure that these are the same people that wear shoes without socks.

    Because those are all upsells - aren't they?
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Kai Pei View Post

      The whole, "I won't buy a product because it comes with an upsell" argument is really naive and juvenile.

      I can't even express how many times I've purchased a product with killer upsell content and ended up happy as pie that I bought.

      Plus, if you really hate the content, then return it for a refund.

      These complainers are probably the same people that have never sold a single product or made a single dollar online.

      I'm sure that these are the same people that drink their coffee without cream or sugar.

      I'm sure that these are the same people that eat a burger without fries and a coke.

      I'm sure that these are the same people that wear shoes without socks.

      Because those are all upsells - aren't they?

      Occasionally when I go to a restaurant, those *******s try to upsell me too!!

      Just the other night, a waitress said, "For only $1.95, I could get you a piece of apple pie for dessert..."

      I am getting so tired of all of these people and all of their damn upsells!!

      I was in the McDonald's drive-through today, and I ordered a value meal. The voice crackled across the speaker saying, "Would you like to Super-Size your meal today?"

      I was so angered by the attempt to get me to spend more money, that I cancelled my lunch order and went home to eat bologna sandwiches!!

      On my way home to eat bologna sandwiches, I stopped at the convenience store to get a pop, and the guy behind the register asked me if I needed chips or anything to go with my pop...

      The nerve of them people to keep trying to get me to buy more crap!!

      LOL

      :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author plongmire
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        On my way home to eat bologna sandwiches, I stopped at the convenience store to get a pop, and the guy behind the register asked me if I needed chips or anything to go with my pop...
        I love bologna sandwiches...

        I have to say that after reading the whole post...people who create WSO's or sell good ones need to protect their investment. I myslef spend a lot of time and money providing real services to people and give out a ton of information, I am floored when these guys want everything for free and complain about getting over delivered for $7 bucks...

        Perhaps it is time to raise the price of WSO's...I have found great information from the trusted ones, and even started making money because of the things I have learned. For those that want everything for free, and complain about it, dont last long anyway
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        Here's the rub...

        You have marketers who complaining about upsells.

        Kinda weird isn't it?

        Do as I say but not as I do.

        You are dealing with your own kind... what do people expect?

        So it's ok to build a list, but not ok to have the tables turned on you when you buy something from a marketer?

        Besides, with almost 99% requiring a double opt in and confirmation, if you get your product, just ignore the confirmation request.

        EDIT: Instead of bitchin' why not actually watch what these people are doing and get some clues on how to actually set up a real sales funnel to maximize their income per sale and ROI.

        What's that? They annoy you so you don't want to do that on your site?

        Well get real sunshine. You are NOT your customer. So if you presume that your customers won't like it because you don't... then you are leaving thousands on the table for the smart marketers.

        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Occasionally when I go to a restaurant, those *******s try to upsell me too!!

        Just the other night, a waitress said, "For only $1.95, I could get you a piece of apple pie for dessert..."

        I am getting so tired of all of these people and all of their damn upsells!!

        I was in the McDonald's drive-through today, and I ordered a value meal. The voice crackled across the speaker saying, "Would you like to Super-Size your meal today?"

        I was so angered by the attempt to get me to spend more money, that I cancelled my lunch order and went home to eat bologna sandwiches!!

        On my way home to eat bologna sandwiches, I stopped at the convenience store to get a pop, and the guy behind the register asked me if I needed chips or anything to go with my pop...

        The nerve of them people to keep trying to get me to buy more crap!!

        LOL

        :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author Kai Pei
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Occasionally when I go to a restaurant, those *******s try to upsell me too!!

        Just the other night, a waitress said, "For only $1.95, I could get you a piece of apple pie for dessert..."

        I am getting so tired of all of these people and all of their damn upsells!!

        I was in the McDonald's drive-through today, and I ordered a value meal. The voice crackled across the speaker saying, "Would you like to Super-Size your meal today?"

        I was so angered by the attempt to get me to spend more money, that I cancelled my lunch order and went home to eat bologna sandwiches!!

        On my way home to eat bologna sandwiches, I stopped at the convenience store to get a pop, and the guy behind the register asked me if I needed chips or anything to go with my pop...

        The nerve of them people to keep trying to get me to buy more crap!!

        LOL

        :rolleyes:
        Me too - I'm sitting on the couch eating a bologna sandwich, cursing all the upsellers of the world.
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by Kai Pei View Post

      The whole, "I won't buy a product because it comes with an upsell" argument is really naive and juvenile.

      I can't even express how many times I've purchased a product with killer upsell content and ended up happy as pie that I bought.

      Plus, if you really hate the content, then return it for a refund.

      These complainers are probably the same people that have never sold a single product or made a single dollar online.

      I'm sure that these are the same people that drink their coffee without cream or sugar.

      I'm sure that these are the same people that eat a burger without fries and a coke.

      I'm sure that these are the same people that wear shoes without socks.

      Because those are all upsells - aren't they?
      Agreed with all but the cream and sugar, ha ha.

      Those are usually free!

      But yes, it can get a bit silly with the complaints you hear, sometimes...
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  • Profile picture of the author absolutelee
    The thing about WSO's is that it's the epitome of free enterprise. The more free the marketplace the more chaos you're going to have. I ran a wso recently, and someone with just 1 post posted a very negative comment. Not a review, because they obviously hadn't bought the product. What can I say...Troll Happens?

    On the flip side, if you try to control things too much you're going to stifle creativity and entrepreneurship. What ever happened to Caveat Emptor? I just bought a wso about ten minutes ago. It was crap. It cost me $6 or so. Am I mad? No. Will I buy that vendor's product again? Probably not. It's a lesson learned. Do I want to restrict other vendors just because I happened to get burned? Not at all!

    I agree with WillR (forgot to quote the comment), above, that none of the suggestions so far would solve the problem without killing the marketplace.

    So, what's the solution? Report the obvious infractions, then forget it and move on.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by absolutelee View Post

      What ever happened to Caveat Emptor?

      He moved on.... Mumbling something about understanding Pig Latin on the way out the door... I haven't seen him since...

      :p
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    To quote Paul,
    Too many new people thinking they're the first to have the idea for that to happen.
    True understanding of the human nature! EPIC!
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    People who dump on wso threads are as bad as people who don't clean up after their dog does a doo doo on the nature strip.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi sal64,

      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      People who dump on wso threads are as bad as people who don't clean up after their dog does a doo doo on the nature strip.
      After three pages of discussion is that the best contribution that you can muster? It's kind of ironic in the context of the thread title and discussion topic.
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        Forgive me for having a sense of humour.

        Perhaps you care to read the entire thread and check out my contributions.

        The irony is that I have made 3 other constructive posts, yet all you can do is take a swipe at me without making any other constructive contributions.

        Bit of the ol' pot kettle black, ey Guv?

        Some people really take themselves a bit too seriously.

        Or are you one of those people that doesn't use a pooper scooper???

        Anyways... here's one from yesterday. Not one of my better works, but certainly one to add to your swipe file.

        "Bwahahahahahahaha!

        ROFLMBFHIAO (Big Fat Hairy Italian Ass)

        Why do people get so uptight about WSO's?

        Seriously, what's the obsession?"

        Life is good.

        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi sal64,



        After three pages of discussion is that the best contribution that you can muster? It's kind of ironic in the context of the thread title and discussion topic.
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  • Profile picture of the author SweetCarroll9
    Personally I don't think anybody has the right to run into somebodies topic and whale on them. Especially without good reason.

    What I need to tell myself is that just about every single one of the WSOs on here were made by someone, they put fecking plenty of time into it, and I know that from the good reviews I've had so far on my own WSO, it made me feel like a million dollars.

    It's a great feeling to have your fellow Warriors compliment you -so I can't imagine how upsetting it is to get negative feedback consistently.

    I'd be furious if somebody came into my topic unwarranted and started panning my product. The owner knows better than anyone if it's genuine. If somebody bought the product and they don't like it, fair enough but personally I still don't think it's right to have a big barmy with them in the middle of their topic.

    It may not have been to your taste - but maybe to somebody else it is the Holy Grail. Give everybody a chance.

    I'd like to see less of it, but some people just can't concentrate on anything but the negatives it's a disgrace.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      What about all the affiliated positive reviews? Bet you're willing to turn a blind eye to them though?
      The proper sequence for responding to a thread in a discussion forum:

      Read first. Then reply.


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      • Profile picture of the author cheilman
        I know I'm still new to the whole IM and Warrior forums and still trying to create a brand for myself, but I'd like to throw out some thoughts:

        I've read the posts and I've seen a few good ideas also knowing even thou good idea would be hard to implement into the forums. I wanted to say that I feel sorry for someone out there has to post bad and/or negative things about a WSO that either never bought it or knows nothing about it just to be that way.

        Thoughts on some type of possibilities:

        1.) Maybe come up with a paid seal of approval from a certified group of warriors that would review your WSO to help slow down the crap of WSOs?

        2.) Forget who posted it but something like the ebay ranking system wouldn't be too bad an idea.

        3.) How about have a code generated for all forum members when used to at the time of purchase of the WSO it gives them a Warrior discount? Like a coupon code etc.

        Just a few thoughts I'm sure most of them are tough to create or implement on the forums or even good ideas, but just throwing them out there.

        I also want to say for those of you that ever watched or know of Gordon Ramsey and his TV show Kitchen Nightmare, I like his one rule of wanting to know the legitimate complaints about his product and/or service so he can learn what is wrong to fix it for future products/services. Warriors who want to delete legitimate negative are only hurting themselves for growing as an legitimate business person.

        I wish all warriors luck in your future businesses.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by cheilman View Post

          Thoughts on some type of possibilities:

          1.) Maybe come up with a paid seal of approval from a certified group of warriors that would review your WSO to help slow down the crap of WSOs?
          A "certified group of Warriors" qualified to review the wide range of offers on the WSO forum would make the seal so expensive that no one would post a WSO. Lots of other problems with this idea as well, such as having highly experienced people trying to "unknow" what they know to review a product aimed at new people.

          Originally Posted by cheilman View Post

          2.) Forget who posted it but something like the ebay ranking system wouldn't be too bad an idea.
          That's been suggested a number of times, and it would be subject to the same type of problems eBay sees with the feedback system. One of the worst is coercion - 'give me a discount or a free product or I'll leave you bad feedback'. Very easy to manipulate the other way, too, if you make the rating cumulative to the seller.

          Originally Posted by cheilman View Post

          3.) How about have a code generated for all forum members when used to at the time of purchase of the WSO it gives them a Warrior discount? Like a coupon code etc.
          That might work IF the Warrior forum were the payment processor or tightly integrated with it. Otherwise, it would require each seller to implement that integration, which would force out the majority of sellers. Also any universal coupon code would last maybe five minutes before it was sold several times in order to give non-members a discount.

          I think a combination of removing the incentive to post (post counts, sigs), and sellers and concerned others policing their threads by reporting the offending posts (getting those posts, and the posters themselves, removed) seems the most likely to succeed.
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  • Profile picture of the author manny2513
    I feel you man I got a great WSO with tons of positive reviews and just one guy who didn't even buy said ohh this can get saturated with ease when I explained several times that it can't get saturated and also explained why but all noobs jumped to that post leaving all types of negative feedback and none of them had even read the sales thread and sales went down. I think Mods should be more active reviewing WSO threads as that's what makes this forum so popular and makes them the most $$$
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by manny2513 View Post

      I feel you man I got a great WSO with tons of positive reviews and just one guy who didn't even buy said ohh this can get saturated with ease when I explained several times that it can't get saturated and also explained why but all noobs jumped to that post leaving all types of negative feedback and none of them had even read the sales thread and sales went down. I think Mods should be more active reviewing WSO threads as that's what makes this forum so popular and makes them the most $$$
      First off, the mods don't make a dime off of your, or any other, WSO. It's a volunteer position that can suck up a lot of time.

      Second, since it was your WSO thread, did you report these posts? Or did you sit back waiting for 'Mods' to clean up for you?
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom Brownsword
    Just thinking out loud...

    1. Would it be possible to give WSO thread creators the right to delete posts on their thread?

    2. I *EXPECT* an upsell when I buy a good, inexpensive WSO. The creator is most likely giving out most (if not all) of the front-end in the form of commissions -- and an upsell enables them to recoup some of their investment. In fact, if the seller is using Warrior+, I'll log in to the affiliate area to see if there is one... (super-secret ninja trick... or something like that...).

    3. Forced opt-in? I don't like it, but as long as I can opt-out after delivery and I'm reasonably sure that I won't be moved to another list (or have my contact details sold), I'll go for it. But I think it should be specified that it will be required before I buy (some people are doing that). Having said that, it's MUCH better if you can come up with a compelling reason for an optional opt-in.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by Tom Brownsword View Post

      Just thinking out loud...

      1. Would it be possible to give WSO thread creators the right to delete posts on their thread?
      No way. Then you'd have the problem of the less-than-honest sellers deleting ANY negative feedback. If you think about it for a few seconds, I'm sure you'll realize that this is a very bad idea.
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      • Profile picture of the author J Bold
        Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

        No way. Then you'd have the problem of the less-than-honest sellers deleting ANY negative feedback. If you think about it for a few seconds, I'm sure you'll realize that this is a very bad idea.
        yes that's just too much temptation for even the most honest and ethical sellers...
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        • Profile picture of the author budfox
          I wonder what you think of this:

          1. I buy an ebook WSO that has a raving sales page, I mean this is the best thing ever, just buy it and start benefitting, no mention of any possible upsell on the sales page.

          2. I am squeezed for an email and cannot even get the download page location except by email delivery.

          3. To get the product I paid for I now have to scroll waaaayyyyy down to the bottom of the download page where there is a small download button, underneath a HUGE upsell page.

          I now feel that the sales page lied to me before I even read the ebook. This thing I bought was supposed to be the best thing ever and it is buried underneath a hard sales pitch for the apparent REAL best thing ever, which costs three times the price of the thing I just bought.

          Sooooooo.... I go to the WSO and express my disappointed feelings with the buying experience before I even read the ebook (of course I make it clear that I have not read it yet).

          What do you think of me doing that? Because I have done that on the last two WSO's that I purchased (both from the same seller by the way, as the products are not bad) and my feedback was the first negative feedback on the thread and exactly what you described happened afterwards - the thread went sour with non-buying complainers saying they will not buy because of what I posted.

          I would (and probably will) do it again. If you don't like that, provide a better buying experience. Don't make me feel like the sales page lied to me before I even read your ebook. Don't make me jump through ten hoops to get the thing I just paid you full price for.

          I really don't care that it is a "marketing technique" and this is an ebook about marketing. I still feel cheated before I even crack page one.
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          • Profile picture of the author sal64
            I think your pov is a valid one from a customer's perspective.

            I recently purchased a non wso product and had to get through 9.. yes 9 upsells before I got to my product. Needless to say I was ready to just refund it.

            I think there is definitely a message here for wso vendors to sharpen their act.

            In fact, if they are clever, they can probably use this to increase sales.

            On the flipside, it is what it is and not sure what the answer is.

            I see it for what it is.. a front end lead generation system. Is it in keeping with the original spirit? Certainly not.

            So I expect to go through the mill every time I buy one. Mind you, I no longer buy how to MMO products.

            You have every right to defend your position, but all I can say is that rty and understand what your actions do to other people's sales. And how you would feel if it happened to you.

            Not saying it's right or wrong, but sometimes it's better to let sleeping dogs lie... and perhaps a PM will be more appropriate. You see, the seller creates good products, but you don't like his marketing approach.

            But that's his prerogative to have a funnel in place. I don't believe that any of us have the right to play God with someone's business purely because of our own beliefs.

            Anyways...

            It's a IM product purchased onn an IM forum. What does one expect to get?

            It's a but like walking into a strip club and then getting offended at seeing naked breasts.

            It goes with the territory.




            Originally Posted by budfox View Post

            I wonder what you think of this:

            1. I buy an ebook WSO that has a raving sales page, I mean this is the best thing ever, just buy it and start benefitting, no mention of any possible upsell on the sales page.

            2. I am squeezed for an email and cannot even get the download page location except by email delivery.

            3. To get the product I paid for I now have to scroll waaaayyyyy down to the bottom of the download page where there is a small download button, underneath a HUGE upsell page.

            I now feel that the sales page lied to me before I even read the ebook. This thing I bought was supposed to be the best thing ever and it is buried underneath a hard sales pitch for the apparent REAL best thing ever, which costs three times the price of the thing I just bought.

            Sooooooo.... I go to the WSO and express my disappointed feelings with the buying experience before I even read the ebook (of course I make it clear that I have not read it yet).

            What do you think of me doing that? Because I have done that on the last two WSO's that I purchased (both from the same seller by the way, as the products are not bad) and my feedback was the first negative feedback on the thread and exactly what you described happened afterwards - the thread went sour with non-buying complainers saying they will not buy because of what I posted.

            I would (and probably will) do it again. If you don't like that, provide a better buying experience. Don't make me feel like the sales page lied to me before I even read your ebook. Don't make me jump through ten hoops to get the thing I just paid you full price for.

            I really don't care that it is a "marketing technique" and this is an ebook about marketing. I still feel cheated before I even crack page one.
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

              It's a but like walking into a strip club and then getting offended at seeing naked breasts.

              It goes with the territory.




              LOL

              I heard a story about some writer from a previous generation (cannot remember the name), and he was telling about one night he went to a high-dollar dinner and show.

              Some really hot young chick in an evening dress, with a lot of exposed cleavage, came to his table, sat down and started flirting with him.

              He was older than dirt, so he knew what was up...

              He asked the woman, "If I gave you a million dollars, would you sleep with me?"

              She giggled, then agreed.

              Then he asked the woman, "If I gave you $20, would you sleep with me?"

              She got all pissy with him and said, "What do you think I am? A whore?"

              He responded, "We have already established that... Now we are just negotiating a price..."



              Don't be offended by such things... It goes with the territory...
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          • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
            Originally Posted by budfox View Post

            I wonder what you think of this:

            1. I buy an ebook WSO that has a raving sales page, I mean this is the best thing ever, just buy it and start benefitting, no mention of any possible upsell on the sales page.

            2. I am squeezed for an email and cannot even get the download page location except by email delivery.

            3. To get the product I paid for I now have to scroll waaaayyyyy down to the bottom of the download page where there is a small download button, underneath a HUGE upsell page.

            I now feel that the sales page lied to me before I even read the ebook. This thing I bought was supposed to be the best thing ever and it is buried underneath a hard sales pitch for the apparent REAL best thing ever, which costs three times the price of the thing I just bought.

            Sooooooo.... I go to the WSO and express my disappointed feelings with the buying experience before I even read the ebook (of course I make it clear that I have not read it yet).

            What do you think of me doing that? Because I have done that on the last two WSO's that I purchased (both from the same seller by the way, as the products are not bad) and my feedback was the first negative feedback on the thread and exactly what you described happened afterwards - the thread went sour with non-buying complainers saying they will not buy because of what I posted.

            I would (and probably will) do it again. If you don't like that, provide a better buying experience. Don't make me feel like the sales page lied to me before I even read your ebook. Don't make me jump through ten hoops to get the thing I just paid you full price for.

            I really don't care that it is a "marketing technique" and this is an ebook about marketing. I still feel cheated before I even crack page one.
            You really feel having to scroll down past the upsell or one-time-offer is making you "jump through ten hoops"? Seriously?

            And if you bought from a WSO, you didn't pay full price.

            I think if you have such a major problem with what is a very standard marketing practice, then perhaps your attitude is the issue.

            As to making you optin to get the product you already paid for, unless it's clear in the copy that it's a membership or otherwise required, that is against PayPal's AUP. But it really is quite simple to just unsubscribe once you get your product, isn't it?
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            • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
              Originally Posted by Ofthemix View Post

              I posted my review, that his product would work, but it was going to take a lot more time than he claimed in his sales copy. It was an honest review, not bashing his product, in fact I even said that I thought it was a good product to buy, but I was giving other potential buyers realistic expectations.

              In return, I got a PM from him that if I didn't change my review to 100% positive he was going to have the mods take it down. I didn't budge so he quoted my review and said that I didn't know what I was talking about.
              This is why an eBay-type feedback or rating system won't work.

              "You didn't gush about how great my product is, so now I'm going to try to trash your credibility."

              This type of coercion is even more powerful if the one who posted the less-than-glowing review is running one or more WSOs themselves.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Roger,
                In other words, from my perspective as an outsider it seems like you're having to employ 'whack-a-mole' currently, but with continued exponential growth I reckon the moles will pop up so quickly and in so many places that only 'nuke-all-moles' will be effective. Just my opinion.
                If you have suggestions for how to determine who is and is not legitimately reviewing something for which they have paid, or of which they've been given a review copy, I'm all ears. It may just be something I'm missing, but I can't see it at this point.

                I happen to personally think getting rid of all video reviews is a good idea. Same basis as auto-nuking threads that start with a video created by the poster: Not enough time to go through them all and make sure they're not stealth self-promotions. I've seen enough of these videos that were to feel that's a justified position.
                For example, as a helpful discussion forum participant, I'm finding myself giving more general forum advice (how to subscribe to threads for example) and more repetitive advice (of the 'this has been stated 1000 times' nature) to clueless newbs who appear to be new to any kind of forum protocol, internet marketing etc. and I have a sneaking suspicion these are emanating from the external workings of the WSO affiliate program.
                Welcome to my world, 1998-2011.

                John,
                "You didn't gush about how great my product is, so now I'm going to try to trash your credibility."
                Ah. That brings up another set of issues.

                Anyone who threatens to post nasty comments if they don't get a free copy or a refund on something for which no refund was offered, or any seller who withholds a warranted refund until a buyer removes a negative review or refund request from a thread, is going to be banned if we can prove the claim is true.

                That sort of thing, by the way, is the real reason behind a lot of the instances of multiple nasty posts about the same issue in the same thread.


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                • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Anyone who threatens to post nasty comments if they don't get a free copy or a refund on something for which no refund was offered, or any seller who withholds a warranted refund until a buyer removes a negative review or refund request from a thread, is going to be banned if we can prove the claim is true.

                  That sort of thing, by the way, is the real reason behind a lot of the instances of multiple nasty posts about the same issue in the same thread.

                  Paul
                  What would be acceptable proof? A screenshot of their threat? We do a fairly large chunk of business and have only ran across this happening to us less than five times. But it is still irritating as all get out when it happens.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ga RedNeck
    Quiet a few good post here from both sides of the fense.
    But I Lean more to the side of not trashing the thread post you want a refund and why.
    Thats enough if they dont respond in a timely manner then post again .

    Timely is not 10 minutes some people do have lifes outside the computer.
    Also IF they send you urls to download DO not be stupid and post the url in the thread stating you couldnt get to it .
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    • Profile picture of the author cheilman
      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

      A "certified group of Warriors" qualified to review the wide range of offers on the WSO forum would make the seal so expensive that no one would post a WSO. Lots of other problems with this idea as well, such as having highly experienced people trying to "unknow" what they know to review a product aimed at new people.

      That's been suggested a number of times, and it would be subject to the same type of problems eBay sees with the feedback system. One of the worst is coercion - 'give me a discount or a free product or I'll leave you bad feedback'. Very easy to manipulate the other way, too, if you make the rating cumulative to the seller.

      That might work IF the Warrior forum were the payment processor or tightly integrated with it. Otherwise, it would require each seller to implement that integration, which would force out the majority of sellers. Also any universal coupon code would last maybe five minutes before it was sold several times in order to give non-members a discount.

      I think a combination of removing the incentive to post (post counts, sigs), and sellers and concerned others policing their threads by reporting the offending posts (getting those posts, and the posters themselves, removed) seems the most likely to succeed.
      I agree, just throwing out some thoughts and ideas.

      Originally Posted by Ga RedNeck View Post

      Quiet a few good post here from both sides of the fense.
      But I Lean more to the side of not trashing the thread post you want a refund and why.
      Thats enough if they dont respond in a timely manner then post again .

      Timely is not 10 minutes some people do have lifes outside the computer.
      Also IF they send you urls to download DO not be stupid and post the url in the thread stating you couldnt get to it .
      Always a good point I'd say at least 24-48hrs some people do have families to take care of.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr.money411
    Well first off anything you buy from the WSO is really at your own risk their are those that do not give you enough information just enough to make you buy and which at times people are not satisfy with the purchase.

    Their also the review copy junkie that wants to get it for nothing their a few i noticed that even the reviews are almost the same as the last review copy that got from someone else lol

    People leaving a negative review in first place is just more being a ass then anything if you do not like what you purchase that is why you can get a refund or one is offered.

    But some people forget just because you may not like it does not mean the next person is going to feel the same and if you have a strong product,service ect. ect. no negativity is going to bring it down nor should become a thread fight or debate with the person that is saying something negative because that just turns a potential buyer off as well.

    The Good fake reviews is just as bad as a negative reviews and if you been on here for a while you can read through the bull****

    Maybe they can make the WSO thread have 2 threads for each WSO that posted for example.

    You post your WSO then you have 2 threads within your WSO thread one for questions and the other for reviews which of course they would have to buy to post in the review thread.

    This would help with your reviews being from a buyer as well as keep people questions in order and stop the ones making bad reviews that did not purchase because then people would know they are full of S***

    Just a Thought
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Paul (Myers),

      A couple of questions if you'd be so kind.

      a) is there ever likely to be anything done about the 'review junkies' (as mentioned just above)? I don't really have a specific problem with them myself, but I pay attention to what I see around, as I'm sure others do and I think that they are doing harm, to a degree, in that they are devaluing reviews in general which I believe might be having a detrimental knock-on effect.

      My personal thoughts are that by doing what they do (never seeming to leave a bad review, leaving good reviews aplenty on a high percentage of WSOs, even those that get shut down later by a mod or appear to be particularly poor for other reasons) they add an air of collusion/dishonesty to the place and possibly provide fuel to the 'complainers'.

      I know that there is one serial reviewer and every time I see a review from them, I don't believe a word they say and I sigh to myself that yet again, they got themselves a freebie. Or if I come across a WSO that has 'gone bad', I play a mind game with myself as I scroll through the original comments, almost expecting that this person will be there with a glowing review.

      b) I saw a WSO which had been locked yesterday and it had an animated rosette stating 'voted WSO of the weekend.' Typically, when I see these types of awards on other websites, I would expect the rosette to at least be clickable so that any prospect could investigate who gave the award and whether it's at all legitimate.

      With this one I couldn't. In recent times I have noticed all sorts of people loitering around with WSO related websites with WSO in the URL, acting as some kind of authority and offering 'awards' in the style of WSO of the day (I notice you mentioned that some action had been taken regarding these people getting out of line, above). I also noticed how the sellers like to use these awards in their WSO titles.

      My point is that personally, I pretty much ignore these things now because like everything else that appears to give a seller an edge, they tend to get out of hand quite quickly and ruin it for themselves, by devaluing their own 'edge' through over-use or incorrect usage.

      But my question is, if someone is using some award such as 'WSO of the weekend', shouldn't they be required to make them clickable, with the click leading to validation of the legitimacy of the 'award', or provide some validation in some other, standardised manner?
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  • Profile picture of the author DianaHeuser
    If I may make a suggestion from a newbie.

    What about not allowing the WSO Seller to copy and paste his full advert repeatedly through the thread so that it hides the negative comments?

    I have seen this done in one WSO offer particurlarly and the Seller is just not refunding these guys that are asking but it gets missed by having to scroll through pages of his repeated advert.

    Di
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Tom,
      Would it be possible to give WSO thread creators the right to delete posts on their thread?
      We have people throwing (self-)righteous fits about any legitimate negative review. Some go nuts over pre-sale questions. Others ignore refund requests and then demand that we remove them from the sales thread after someone realizes that's the only way they're going to get a response.

      There are people I'd believe would handle that level of access properly, but those people don't need it anyway.

      Moneymax,
      As far as all of these people that are jumping on the band wagon and perpetuating the negative comment...I don't think that should be allowed.
      This sort of thing is why we come down on people who leave post after post in the same thread, pounding on the same issue and throwing accusations around. It creates a cascade, in which people with no clue jump in and talk about how horrible the seller is, making more people believe it and post more nonsense.

      I've seen threads that were destroyed by a single person who was completely wrong and wouldn't listen. Or someone who got everything that was described and went nuts because it wasn't laid out the way they thought it should be. Or because they didn't like the tone of the seller in a response to an emailed or PM'd question.

      When people get their egos involved, it gets ugly. They don't care how many people they hurt, they're going to extract their 150 pounds of flesh. They're going to destroy that seller to make up for the perceived insult or shortcoming. And often they'll attack anyone who questions their positions.

      When you see this starting, as a seller or just someone reading a sales thread, report it. This sort of behavior needs to be stopped as soon as it starts. If it's let go for even a few hours, it can escalate to that point. A day, and it can destroy a thread.

      If you're tempted to go off on that kind of rampage yourself, resist. Make your comment (singular), and report the problem to the mods. Provide whatever evidence you have to support your claim, and we'll deal with it.

      And be careful. If there's no stated refund policy, you're buying at your own risk.

      We don't tell people what terms to offer. We only require that they fulfill the terms posted.

      Roger,
      is there ever likely to be anything done about the 'review junkies'
      I just deleted 75 posts from a single member because he had established a long pattern of asking for review copies where none were offered, and banned him with a warning. Someone reported the issue.

      Yeah. If we're told about it, we do something.
      I know that there is one serial reviewer and every time I see a review from them, I don't believe a word they say and I sigh to myself that yet again, they got themselves a freebie.
      There are a few of those. One who leaves video reviews. That gets into a different area.

      Do we have any business deleting reviews from someone who has clearly bought or been given a copy of the product and isn't pimping an affiliate link or their own site? On what basis do we act on those?

      The same is true for people who regularly leave negative reviews of things they've bought and keep their reviews within the rules. Do we have any business acting against them? On what basis?
      I saw a WSO which had been locked yesterday and it had an animated rosette stating 'voted WSO of the weekend.'
      I saw that, too. I wanted to ask "Who voted?" Since it was already being closed, it didn't seem useful to spend the time.

      I strongly recommend that people ignore such claims, including "WSO of the Day," and treat them as having no value or relevance at all to the product's worth. I've seen great products that sold very few copies and (in my opinion) utter trash that got picked as WSOtD.

      If you see something like "Voted WSO of the weekend," report it. If I see that, I'll personally delete the "award seal" and any reference to the spurious vote.

      Diana,
      What about not allowing the WSO Seller to copy and paste his full advert repeatedly through the thread so that it hides the negative comments?
      Report it. It shouldn't happen.

      I deleted 40-some copies of that sort of thing from a single thread yesterday. Very likely the same one you're talking about. The occasional countdown note or "Reminder: This ends on XX/YY/ZZZ" is fine. That has a legitimate purpose. But reproducing the whole sales letter? Nope.

      I've spoken to that fellow about the refund issue. He assures me it's being taken care of. If it's not, I'll be told by the folks who reported the problem.


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  • Profile picture of the author Ofthemix
    I personally think there are arguments on both sides of the fence. How do you tell a buyer from a non-buyer unless they leave a comment that is obviously untrue to your WSO?

    I bought a WSO not too long ago from a guy that has a ridiculous amount of WSOs on here. I followed his system step by step, bought every single affiliate offer he had in his WSO to follow his system exactly, then it failed to deliver what I already thought was a sketchy claim in his sales letter.

    I posted my review, that his product would work, but it was going to take a lot more time than he claimed in his sales copy. It was an honest review, not bashing his product, in fact I even said that I thought it was a good product to buy, but I was giving other potential buyers realistic expectations.

    In return, I got a PM from him that if I didn't change my review to 100% positive he was going to have the mods take it down. I didn't budge so he quoted my review and said that I didn't know what I was talking about.

    No one likes a negative review, or even a half negative review, but one has to admit that there are a lot of income claims and time frame claims that are pure and simple fraudulent. That is why so many people have stopped purchasing WSOs.

    I agree that non-WSO buyers should not be able to leave reviews as it's damaging to the seller. But I also believe that buyers should have the option of leaving a review, whether it is positive OR negative.

    Perhaps they should make WSOPro a permanent integrated part of the WarriorForum and track who buys so that only those people are allowed to make posts on a WSO thread. All questions from non-buyers regarding the product can be dealt with via PM to the seller. Then as people ask questions, the seller could add a FAQ section to their listing addressing those questions (and of course send a copy of the answers via PM to the original asker).

    Just my 2 cents.
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  • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
    Curious: What constitutes a review junkie? Whenever I've gotten review copies, its because it was being offered already and I was curious or (more often), the product creator has pm'd me and given me access.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi cypherslock,

      Answering for myself, I don't have a set amount, but one person I'm thinking of is in well over 50% of the WSOs that I ever look at.

      If this person works alone and actually reads/watches/tests them all, they simply cannot have enough time to do anything else, including implementing the ideas.

      On a different note, I looked at a locked WSO yesterday, which had a mix of reviews, something like this -

      Either -

      a) best WSO ever

      or

      b) worst WSO ever

      Seriously. Talk about polarisation. The good ones were loaded towards the start of the WSO, the bad ones started appearing after one person stood up and trounced it (a bit like the customers in that episode of Fawlty Towers (The Americans) where they are all too scared of Basil after he has waved the american bloke off, until one of them stands up to him and suddenly they all join in - 'I'm not happy either!')

      Then a flurry of bad reviews came in. The 'best WSO' ones were still coming in, inbetween the refund requests.

      What was most ridiculous was a previously 'best WSO' reviewer coming back after the deluge of refunds started, trying to recoup some face -

      'Sorry everyone, I should have paid more attention when I reviewed this and read it properly, rather than just skimming.'

      Draw your own conclusions from that, but it suggests to me that people are viewing their name 'in lights' as a testimonial as a method of gaining recognition, perhaps through association, perhaps through reciprocation.

      It just seems very messy to me and in reply to Paul's point above -

      Do we have any business deleting reviews from someone who has clearly bought or been given a copy of the product and isn't pimping an affiliate link or their own site? On what basis do we act on those?
      ...my point is that I think it will possibly come to a point where you may have to make certain changes to retain the integrity of the marketplace, regardless of whether there is a concrete basis for doing so such as 'A happens, which causes B and B definitely needs to be eradicated.'

      In other words, from my perspective as an outsider it seems like you're having to employ 'whack-a-mole' currently, but with continued exponential growth I reckon the moles will pop up so quickly and in so many places that only 'nuke-all-moles' will be effective. Just my opinion.

      For example, as a helpful discussion forum participant, I'm finding myself giving more general forum advice (how to subscribe to threads for example) and more repetitive advice (of the 'this has been stated 1000 times' nature) to clueless newbs who appear to be new to any kind of forum protocol, internet marketing etc. and I have a sneaking suspicion these are emanating from the external workings of the WSO affiliate program.
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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    Just throwing an idea out there- maybe it has been discussed before, I'm not sure.

    If I missed it in this thread, I apologize.

    What if you had to pay money to see the WSO section?

    I'm not talking $40, but maybe something like $5/month.

    This will make it so only Warriors who are serious about buying will use it.

    If you have to pay a bit of money just to see WSO offers, you understand the value of money (somewhat). Hopefully that means you won't destroy someone's thread even though you haven't seen the product.

    Would this mean fewer people would look at the WSO section? Yes.

    But it's the difference between having a freebie list and a buyers list.

    1000 buyers > 5000 freebie seekers
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      No offense, Justin, but isn't that rather like Walmart charging me $5 to get in the door?

      I buy a lot of WSOs but I wouldn't pay for the privilege of browsing it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Matt,
        What would be acceptable proof? A screenshot of their threat?
        Screenshots are too easily faked. Any kind of screenshot.

        It would have to be something we could verify independently.


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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Tina,

          There are plenty of discount outlets that require paid memberships to shop there.

          The idea isn't going to fly here for different reasons. Mostly having to do with the loss to sellers, and the likely reduction in useful offers to the regular members.


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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Justin Stowe View Post

      Just throwing an idea out there- maybe it has been discussed before, I'm not sure.

      If I missed it in this thread, I apologize.

      What if you had to pay money to see the WSO section?

      I'm not talking $40, but maybe something like $5/month.

      This will make it so only Warriors who are serious about buying will use it.

      If you have to pay a bit of money just to see WSO offers, you understand the value of money (somewhat). Hopefully that means you won't destroy someone's thread even though you haven't seen the product.

      Would this mean fewer people would look at the WSO section? Yes.

      But it's the difference between having a freebie list and a buyers list.

      1000 buyers > 5000 freebie seekers
      Seriously? Try this and see what happens to the WSO forum. It will turn into
      a ghost town.

      Just an all around bad idea if ever I heard one.

      And you can't compare places like BJs (that do charge to be members) to
      the WSO forum. It's just not the same thing. If I belong to BJs, I can get
      ground beef at 50% off what it would cost me in the store. What will I get
      here? I'll get the same thing that I paid for when browsing this place was
      free.

      Sorry, it just won't fly here.

      ** Disclaimer ** This is just my opinion, but I'll bet my best mule that I'm
      right.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
    Originally Posted by precious007 View Post

    Or McDonals charging $5 to be able to buy
    the new menus.

    While it may be true, that's just the stupidest thing I've ever heard possible. That's very similar to the sites that charge a monthly fee to be able to complete "surveys" which IMO are all scams. I mean if you're selling something - open the doors largely for the public... don't charge extra.

    ;-)
    Sam's club and Cosco are two extremely profitable and successful businesses that require a paid recurring membership in order to shop there.

    People LOVE exclusiveness - "I'm part of a MEMBERSHIP in which only I and other elite people get to shop here..."

    Just saying.

    Rob

    EDIT: And I in no way, shape or form believe that it will work here. It won't. But it's not a completely stupid idea with the proper business model.
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