Ok, so all this offline stuff was right... (See Update)

Best part is, the whole reason I did it is because copywriting is always slow in January... But now because of that project, I'm adding new methods to my marketing arsenal AND I've got momentum going.

Momentum is important. It's like I always tell my clients, friends, family, and business associates - Money Likes Speed!

- Cherilyn

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Ken Strong 16 years ago

Great job, Cherilyn! But charge more next time. These business owners get quoted fees well into four figures for a website (and that's without the marketing expertise), so you could easily double or triple your price...
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- Cherilyn Woodhouse 16 years ago
  
  Ken - actually this wasn't even a business... It's just a couple of guys who wanted a 4X4 website built for them. I wanted to take on the project more for fun, and for a local reference.
  
  If I quoted $250 on a business website I'd expect you to slap me. LOL!
  
  - Cherilyn
  
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  Capone 16 years ago
  
  Good post. There's a lot of business in most peoples local market. Possibilities are many. Web design, copy writing, PPC campaigns...etc.
  
  Thanks
  
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winebuddy

16 years ago

Biggest lesson here? DO SOMETHING. ANYTHING.

So, so many people sit and read this forum without doing anything.

Sometimes... even me

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Christie Love

16 years ago

Very encouraging. Thanks.

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Michael Mayo

16 years ago

Cherilyn, You Go Girl!

I've been telling people this for a couple years now.

Great Job on getting over the hardest part of it.(ie, The Fear Factor and
Taking Action)

Every time I attempt to get new offline clients I succeed. Why, Because
Failure is not an Option. Every time I gain a new client my confidence
increases and my knowledge of how to handle the next consultation
improves by leaps and bounds.

I enter with so much confidence now that they are sold before words
leave my mouth...lol It's fun and they get to be involved in every stage of
the sites production. <---Increases the Satisfaction rate and trust factor!

Remember not to allow this to consume all of your time.(ie, Don't trade
your time for Money) Instead, Hire people to do the trivial stuff so that
you have time to continue gaining clients and managing your new
Business.

Those Words of Wisdom came to me via John Taylor and have allowed me
to build another recurring income nearly on autopilot.(Thanks again John!)

Keep it up and see how I feel!

Have a Great Day!
Michael

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester

First off, no I'm not going to ask you to follow my progress. There will be no mastermind group, no WSO, no product, no articles, and no email list. I just wanted to say...

You were all right.

Now, I'm a copywriter, I've written for a lot of offline clients before. But very few locally - I figured why bother trying to educate them on why they need a copywriter if they don't know? I live in a small town, I didn't figure many people would know (or care, for that matter.)

Well, they didn't. But I still love local clients.

I've dabbled in web design before... I'm doing a website right now for a local guy who wanted a forum designed for him and his 4x4 buddies.

He's so excited... And so am I. I love the fact that I could sit down and go over notes with him (even though it WAS scary at first). The project is easy... He's loving everything I do, because the skills I have aren't "everywhere" like they are in the IM world. And...

There was no price resistance. None at all. He asked what it would cost, almost as an afterthought. Since it was 1 page plus a phpBB, I said $250. He said "Ok, do you want that all up front?"

My jaw dropped. I have never run into that little price resistance before, but these people truly value these skills.

And do you know what I did to get this client? I posted a "biz notice" (basically a classified) on a local email list offering to build websites. That's it.

I love this project, I love how my skills are valuable to this client, I'm enjoying working on it, and I'm finally getting paid what I'm worth.

If you've been sitting on the fence, thinking "this is hard, this is scary, I'm a wuss I don't want to make money" I gotta say...

GET OFF YOUR DUFF AND GET MOVING.

It's not hard, it is scary, and you will make money. So do it!!!! Take whatever you're good at, whether its graphic design or web design or SEO or article writing or what have you, and take it local. Now. Go!!

- Cherilyn

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Andy Money

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester

First off, no I'm not going to ask you to follow my progress. There will be no mastermind group, no WSO, no product, no articles, and no email list. I just wanted to say...

You were all right.

Now, I'm a copywriter, I've written for a lot of offline clients before. But very few locally - I figured why bother trying to educate them on why they need a copywriter if they don't know? I live in a small town, I didn't figure many people would know (or care, for that matter.)

Well, they didn't. But I still love local clients.

I've dabbled in web design before... I'm doing a website right now for a local guy who wanted a forum designed for him and his 4x4 buddies.

He's so excited... And so am I. I love the fact that I could sit down and go over notes with him (even though it WAS scary at first). The project is easy... He's loving everything I do, because the skills I have aren't "everywhere" like they are in the IM world. And...

There was no price resistance. None at all. He asked what it would cost, almost as an afterthought. Since it was 1 page plus a phpBB, I said $250. He said "Ok, do you want that all up front?"

My jaw dropped. I have never run into that little price resistance before, but these people truly value these skills.

And do you know what I did to get this client? I posted a "biz notice" (basically a classified) on a local email list offering to build websites. That's it.

I love this project, I love how my skills are valuable to this client, I'm enjoying working on it, and I'm finally getting paid what I'm worth.

If you've been sitting on the fence, thinking "this is hard, this is scary, I'm a wuss I don't want to make money" I gotta say...

GET OFF YOUR DUFF AND GET MOVING.

It's not hard, it is scary, and you will make money. So do it!!!! Take whatever you're good at, whether its graphic design or web design or SEO or article writing or what have you, and take it local. Now. Go!!

- Cherilyn

Offline is a great way to go, for sure. Congrats!

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AndrewCavanagh 16 years ago

Nice story but Cherilyn do you have any idea how badly you undercharged this guy?

If you're happy with the fee you charged that really is great but most business owners are thinking in the thousands of dollars when they're talking to someone who's taken the time to get to know them and what they need.

The real key is that selling your services as a copywriter to local businesses is very tough...no one knows what a copywriter is and they don't see the value in it.

But generally speaking most business owners ARE interested in collecting some of the dollars everyone seems to be making with "that interweb thang".

The perception of value is high and often they perceive the cost of entry as high too (most web designers are charging $5,000 to $15,000+ for a basic website).

If only someone explained this to me when I was starting out as a copywriter.

You really can be up and running making a full time living within a week or two.

And you can be charging $1,000 to $2,500+ for simple 1-5 page websites.

Best of all it's worth it to the local business owners who hire you because you'll be creating websites that make real sales for them or changing their websites to something that makes real sales instead of looking pretty.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh
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Ron Killian

16 years ago

Congratz on your success! I agree with Andrew, you might want to charge more next time. One local client I had, when he wanted to check the site out, I had to help him with the mouse! It was a 3 mill business, even though he had no idea how a pc works. It's like your a guru knowing all this " internet stuff", kinda cool

Think "interweb thang" needs to go in the swipe file

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Michael Mayo

16 years ago

Hey Guys, She's getting her feet wet before she jumps into the shark
infested waters...lol

Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh

Nice story but Cherilyn do you have any idea how badly you undercharged this guy?

If you're happy with the fee you charged that really is great but most business owners are thinking in the thousands of dollars when they're talking to someone who's taken the time to get to know them and what they need.

The real key is that selling your services as a copywriter to local businesses is very tough...no one knows what a copywriter is and they don't see the value in it.

But generally speaking most business owners ARE interested in collecting some of the dollars everyone seems to be making with "that interweb thang".

The perception of value is high and often they perceive the cost of entry as high too (most web designers are charging $5,000 to $15,000+ for a basic website).

If only someone explained this to me when I was starting out as a copywriter.

You really can be up and running making a full time living within a week or two.

And you can be charging $1,000 to $2,500+ for simple 1-5 page websites.

Best of all it's worth it to the local business owners who hire you because you'll be creating websites that make real sales for them or changing their websites to something that makes real sales instead of looking pretty.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

Originally Posted by Ron Killian

Congratz on your success! I agree with Andrew, you might want to charge more next time. One local client I had, when he wanted to check the site out, I had to help him with the mouse! It was a 3 mill business, even though he had no idea how a pc works. It's like your a guru knowing all this " internet stuff", kinda cool

Think "interweb thang" needs to go in the swipe file

You may have missed her saying this:

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester

Ken - actually this wasn't even a business... It's just a couple of guys who wanted a 4X4 website built for them.

Just thought I'd Help Clear that issue up a little!

Thanks

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rlnorthcutt

16 years ago

First - another congrats. Getting out of your comfort zone is the key to growth. Pat your self on the back... now get back to work

Second - you DID undercharge for this.

Third - Undercharging for projects to build your experience and portfolio is a really smart way to go... especially when you are working with friends/family.

Just make sure you tell them that they are getting a sweetheart deal: "Normally, I would charge at least $1000 for this, but I really want to work with you... just tell everyone that I charged more!"

Consider that you got paid not only in $$$, but also in experience. Education is always a sound investment, and this is building your portfolio.

If any of you are scared to start, do what I suggest to the newbies I train that are reluctant to begin:
1st job - 50%
2nd job - 60%
3rd job - 70%
4th job - 80%
5th job - 100%

The point is that offering a discount changes the way YOU think about it, which changes the way you talk, act, etc. By the time you hit your 5th site, you are confident enough to charge all of what you are worth and you have a handful of successes under your belt.

Please note - if you have experience and/or confidence, then this approach is not needed. This approach is NOT FOR THE CUSTOMER... its for you.. its like training wheels.

Also - as your skills improve, your price should raise too... if you do it right, this will naturally result in you having more jobs than time to do them.

Again - well done.

Ron

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david-forer

16 years ago

Great Job you are now in the top 95% who take action.
I do like to hear the success stories helps motivate me
Thanks again

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Chuck Staff

16 years ago

Cherilyn:

You did GREAT!

You got up the courage to get out of the bleachers and into the arena.
Your ego and confidence got a HUGE boost as evidenced by your post.
If you'd done it for FREE it would have been worth it:
1. Ego & confidence boost...
2. Added to your portfolio...
3. You now have a valuable asset - a local reference
When I used to build sites, the hardest part was getting content from clients. I'm not a copywriter. My clients weren't either. I've taken more than one $1,500 deposit, built out the site with "Lorem ipsum upsom" and had the dummy site just sit there for the lack of content. You skill set is tremendously valuable to local businesses AND web developers. (Hint, hint... send all the web designers in your area / region an email / letter and let them know you're available...)
I'm sure you're client is happy - he sure didn't balk at your price. So, make like you know he knows you gave him a great deal and tell him you'd love a referral or two: Somebody cuts his hair... Someone sells him tires for his 4X4... Someone in his club owns a business or works for a contractor or... With each new referral or job, increase your prices at a pace that make YOU comfortable.

Congratulations on a job well done, Cherilyn!

Chuck

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JohnSpangler

16 years ago

Hi Cherilyn,

Congrats on diving in because the local markets are wide open.

These local businesses absolutely love working with people who
are in their own town.

I landed a client who had paid a firm in Texas to design his site
and when he met with myself he decided he would rather work
with a local person than someone so far away.

Don't under estimate the power of being local, these business
owners are willing to pay a premium if they know they can get
you and not PRESS 1 For XXXX or PRESS 2 For XXXX you get
the picture.

The businesses I work with know that they can pick up the
phone and actually deal with me and they love that not to
mention knowing I am local makes them feel more comfortable
because I actually know their business. I have been in their
store first hand.

Again congrats and keep up the great work!!!

John

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Adesoji_O 16 years ago

Thanks for the wonderful
article.Congratulation and
keep up the good work
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- AndrewCavanagh 16 years ago
  
  One guideline that might help you to get those fees up:
  
  # 1: Work out a fee you'd be thrilled to do the work for.
  
  # 2: Triple it.
  
  # 3: Negotiate down from there. But be sure not to be a push over in negotiations. Always ask for something in return if you give a lower price than the one you started with (I talk about that process in detail in Offline Gold For The Online Marketer).
  
  The negotiation process is the real key.
  
  Once you're skilled at it you can start at almost any price and negotiate to the point where you've got very close to the maximum price your client will pay and still feel happy hiring you.
  
  If you truly understand the value you're giving to business owners then over time the fees you'll feel worthy of charging will increase substantially.
  
  But as a guideline I think most simple 1-5 page websites designed to sell the products and services of a business are worth $5,000 to $100,000+ to small businesses so you should feel very comfortable charging $1,000 to $5,000+ for creating those sites.
  
  Put another way if you create an extra $100 a week in sales for a business over a year that comes to $5,000, over 5 years...$25,000.
  
  Charging $1,000 to $2,500 for that is a stunning bargain for the business owner.
  
  And in many cases you'll be helping business owner make thousands of extra dollars a month.
  
  For example if you help a real estate agent make just one extra sale a month that's an extra $2,000 to $5,000+ in commissions or $24,000 to $60,000 a year.
  
  Or an extra $120,000 to $300,000 over 5 years.
  
  You should be feeling pretty good about charging a client like that $5,000+ for their website.
  
  They're going to make that back in less than three months and make a fortune out of your work over the coming months and years.
  
  Kindest regards,
  Andrew Cavanagh
  
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  BrashImpact 16 years ago
  
  +3 for andrew, You really gave this site away, its great you feel like your getting what your worth, heres a question to ask yourself, What am i worth ? Worth now ? what will this be worth too the client 1yr 2 yrs 3 yrs 10 yrs from now, and how will i add value. Add value for the client, then charge them accordingly.
  
  I dont do deals now that generate less than 1200.00 per hour, and i am giving things away, its time to raise prices again.
  
  Good luck
  
  Regards,
  Robert Nelson
  
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  Darrell Hagan 16 years ago
  
  Cherilyn, I see your point. Its not about how much you charged, but rather the motivation and the fact that you took action. Good for you! If you like that type of work, then keep doing as you are and build a solid reputation. Perhaps ask the 4x4 guy for a reference if needed. Business will come . And don't be afraid to ask for fair market fees for your skills.
  
  Now then, about that money you received. Lets go celebrate . I'm a cheap date, I promise - $1.00 menu at McDonalds is fine .
  
  Seriously, good for you and keep up the good work.
  
  P.S. I'm not sure why this is all in bold, and I can't seem to shut it off......
  
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Mickey Wong

16 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnSpangler

Hi Cherilyn,

Congrats on diving in because the local markets are wide open.

These local businesses absolutely love working with people who
are in their own town.

I landed a client who had paid a firm in Texas to design his site
and when he met with myself he decided he would rather work
with a local person than someone so far away.

Don't under estimate the power of being local, these business
owners are willing to pay a premium if they know they can get
you and not PRESS 1 For XXXX or PRESS 2 For XXXX you get
the picture.

The businesses I work with know that they can pick up the
phone and actually deal with me and they love that not to
mention knowing I am local makes them feel more comfortable
because I actually know their business. I have been in their
store first hand.

Again congrats and keep up the great work!!!

John

There's a huge advantage in being the local web guy or girl. This is one of the main reasons why local businesses hire me. I'm not only on the other end of the phone but just a few minutes away from them.

I always make a point of taking a walk every week and dropping into each of my clients' businesses. Say "hello", see how they're doing, if they need help with anything... and so on. No selling involved.

One example, I popped into a client's shop last week (a hair salon). He was just in the process of setting up his laptop to connect wirelessly to the Net (so he could collect customers' email addresses). He was having problems so I lent a helping hand and got him online. Took all of 10 minutes. It was no big deal to me but to him it was huge! He's now referred several businesses to me.

At Christmas, I did the Santa thing and delivered gifts and cards to my local clients. You think some fancy, out of town web agency would do this? Not likely.

Being local is a big selling point, and it's one of the main things local businesses look for. That's what I find anyway. And now, whenever I talk to new potential local clients, they want to know who else local I've worked for.

They want to not only see what I've done for them but also talk to my local clients as well for their opinion. And since I go to great efforts to take good care of my clients, they always have glowing things to say about me to others!

Keep up the momentum and effort, Cherilyn. Good job!

Mickey

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chrisnegro

16 years ago

Simply put....there is so much money offline its not even funny. I will be sharing some free tips shortly (via video) on just how this is done.

Best,

Chris Negro

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rlnorthcutt

16 years ago

I have found that the $1500-2000 range is a good place to aim for. Its affordable, but still large enough to command some respect.

The question is - what services do you provide for this? Just the site? Design too? Content? Hosting? Support? Training? etc....

I think its helpful to create a few packages of services... this give the client a choice AND it clarifies the deliverables. You can get into alot of trouble fast when there are no clear boundaries! People will think you should do way more.

Another great reason to create some packages is that it allows you to "upsell" the client and increase the price tag, but they know why. Its like getting extra features when you buy a car... base price + desired upgrades.

Clients NEED structure - and they want you to provide it. If you make it very clear and simple, you will do well.

Ron

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IainBuchanan

16 years ago

Congrats Cherilyn.

I definitely need to form an offline plan!

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Cherilyn Woodhouse

16 years ago

Just an update (I got so busy I forgot about this thread!)

1. I found the client through a "buck or two" style local classified, not even prospecting (this was an "extra cash" kind of thing.) I never intended to change my whole copywriting business model into working locally instead of internationally, although I'm seriously rethinking that now...

2. I do work with "real world" businesses all the time, with brick and mortar buildings, just not a whole lot of local ones because of the intimidation factor.

3. I didn't undercharge. For a business, charging this much, I would have been taking it from behind on this project... But they won't be making any money off of it, at all, so the value is just in the fun. They work 9-5, they don't have $15k to spend on web design. I did this for my own reasons.

They're just two guys who wanted to post youtube videos of them getting their trucks dirty on the internet. It was a fun project, it brought in some extra cash, it was dead simple for me to do, and it got me over my fear of being dismissed.

That is a real issue for me, as I feel as though the fact that I'm a 22 year old female only hurts my career, and people don't take me seriously.

This is not an unfounded fear, either. It's not fun to be passed over for a job because you "need more life experience" and "should take time to start a family before building a career" (true stories, separate employers.) Yeah, those people can bite me.

4. "Offline" is not a niche, or a medium, or a plan. So stop thinking of it that way. If - and ONLY if - you have a valuable skillset that these businesses need, like copywriting or web design or SEO, then you have another group of people you can sell your services to.

Stop thinking in terms of offline vs. online, start thinking like a business.

I have my "offline" niche layed out nicely, like a freshly ploughed field waiting to be planted. I have a plan, I have a method, and I'm working it. I am HELPING business owners succeed at things they either don't know, or don't have the time to do - and I'm not limiting myself to the title of "copywriter".

I'm not going to tell you my plan, or what I DO call myself, or anything else. Because I'm not going to try and sell you anything, and therefore it really isn't anything you need to know.

And as a side point, what I'm doing offline is my secret, and I'll be damned if I want it filled with competitors who don't know what they're doing - because I hate cleaning up other people's messes. Not that some people here wouldn't do a fantastic job, but others... Well, no.

I'm not going to broadcast my profitable business model all over the world wide web. Maybe some day, when I retire - but not now.

But if you have a skill that businesses can use... And you're damn good at it... Go for the brick-and-mortar businesses, because they VALUE you more.

It isn't even that they pay you more, it is that they VALUE you more. Whole different mindset.

Go out and HELP them. They will VALUE you. And you'll build a fantastic BUSINESS helping business owners succeed.

The bottom line of the original post was... For heaven's sake, whatever you're going to do - get out there and DO it!

- Cherilyn

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Tom B Banned 16 years ago

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester

I'm not going to broadcast my profitable business model all over the world wide web. Maybe some day, when I retire - but not now.

- Cherilyn

Cherilyn, sorry but that made me chuckle some. I think the more abundance mindset you have the less things like your age or competition will matter.

Anyway, glad to hear it is working for you.
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- Cherilyn Woodhouse 16 years ago
  
  Thomas;
  
  That was more bitterness towards the recent "everybody and their dog can scam mom n' pop out of cold hard cash easy as cow pie!" trend than anything.
  
  Plus I want it to be perfectly clear that I'm not out to sell something.
  
  If anybody really wants to know that bad, PM me. I'm sure there are plenty of clients out there who can use this, and I can't reach all of them.
  
  But I'm going to be selective in who I tell. If you PM me asking "I make money now how can I plz tell?" or "So how do I get these guys to pay me, so I can make money?" you're not going to get a reply.
  
  Work to provide VALUE - money will follow. Now THAT'S a mindset I can get used to.
  
  - Cherilyn
  
  P.S. That was not a knock at people who have created and marketed legitimate "offline niche" products, which I know there are because I've purchased some. It is a knock at people who use that information in improper ways.
  
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JohnMcCabe

16 years ago

Amen, sister girl...

(Sorry, my wife had the TV on in the background...:p)

Two things that bother the heck out of me when I see these 'market your service to offline businesses threads'...

People who preach going out and making sales, whether you have a clue about what you are doing or not, because you can "just outsource everything but cashing the check." If you have no clue about what you are doing, how the hell are you going o make sure your outsourcer is giving your client their money's worth?

The mirror image to that are the folks, mostly well meaning, who swallow this line and come here to post in a panic about what to do next - the "OK, now how do I put a form on a web page?" crowd.

The other thing that gets under my skin are the folks that want to be taken by hand, sat down in a cyber high chair, and spoon fed every step of the way...

What should I offer?

What could a [whatever] put in his autoresponder?

Any ideas for generating leads for a [whatever]?

Can you give me a list of what types of businesses to approach and the perfect contact letter/phone script/email copy I can cut and paste to haul in the big bucks?

Sorry I lost my head a little bit, but torques me off when charlatans and fools pee in the pool where I swim...

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jan roos

16 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Amen, sister girl...

(Sorry, my wife had the TV on in the background...:p)

Two things that bother the heck out of me when I see these 'market your service to offline businesses threads'...

People who preach going out and making sales, whether you have a clue about what you are doing or not, because you can "just outsource everything but cashing the check." If you have no clue about what you are doing, how the hell are you going o make sure your outsourcer is giving your client their money's worth?

The mirror image to that are the folks, mostly well meaning, who swallow this line and come here to post in a panic about what to do next - the "OK, now how do I put a form on a web page?" crowd.

The other thing that gets under my skin are the folks that want to be taken by hand, sat down in a cyber high chair, and spoon fed every step of the way...

What should I offer?

What could a [whatever] put in his autoresponder?

Any ideas for generating leads for a [whatever]?

Can you give me a list of what types of businesses to approach and the perfect contact letter/phone script/email copy I can cut and paste to haul in the big bucks?

Sorry I lost my head a little bit, but torques me off when charlatans and fools pee in the pool where I swim...

So people who are trying to learn how to do these things and asks for help in an "internet marketing forum" is fools that pee's in your pool?

One thing I really like about you is your willingness to help when people post questions like "how can an attorney use an autoresponder"

A lot of people here including myself are very serious about this business model and might not be as experienced and skillfull as you or others on here and thats why we come heer and ask and learn.

As far as the outsourcing goes, yes a client will be much better off hiring me to "outsource his web design and SEO" to a person on this forum than to pay the local web design company 12K for a pretty website without proper SEO or even a lead capture page.

I think you're just having a bad day though because this was the first negative posts i've seen you make.

Cheers

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SuperSammi 16 years ago

Wow how motivating!! I just started with all of this but I'm very excited! Thanks for the confirmation Cherilyn, I kinda needed it
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AndrewCavanagh

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester

It was a fun project, it brought in some extra cash, it was dead simple for me to do, and it got me over my fear of being dismissed.

That is a real issue for me, as I feel as though the fact that I'm a 22 year old female only hurts my career, and people don't take me seriously.

This is not an unfounded fear, either. It's not fun to be passed over for a job because you "need more life experience" and "should take time to start a family before building a career" (true stories, separate employers.) Yeah, those people can bite me.

if you have a skill that businesses can use... And you're damn good at it... Go for the brick-and-mortar businesses, because they VALUE you more.

It isn't even that they pay you more, it is that they VALUE you more. Whole different mindset.

Go out and HELP them. They will VALUE you. And you'll build a fantastic BUSINESS helping business owners succeed.

The bottom line of the original post was... For heaven's sake, whatever you're going to do - get out there and DO it!

Great advice.

I figured from your posts that you were much older.

You realize that a huge part of the way people treat us is a result of the way WE act.

People are responding to our behavior.

So if you act with confidence and kindness and there's a tiny bit of a don't give me any crap about you then you're probably going to do okay.

Just taking action as you did is a huge part of building that confidence.

I was in my early twenties when I first started selling to business owners and building my own brick and mortar businesses.

Of course I'm male so it is different but the number of people who will dismiss you because you're young is very small.

On the other hand the number of people who'll use that (or anything else that comes to mind) as an excuse to dismiss you when the real reason is because you didn't make a connection or get their attention or show them something they thought could benefit them...that is far more common.

Some people are just not worth worrying about anyway.

Almost any problem you have can be overcome by taking serious action.

I applaud your effort.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

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rlnorthcutt

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester

4. "Offline" is not a niche, or a medium, or a plan. So stop thinking of it that way. If - and ONLY if - you have a valuable skillset that these businesses need, like copywriting or web design or SEO, then you have another group of people you can sell your services to.

Stop thinking in terms of offline vs. online, start thinking like a business.

I have my "offline" niche layed out nicely, like a freshly ploughed field waiting to be planted. I have a plan, I have a method, and I'm working it. I am HELPING business owners succeed at things they either don't know, or don't have the time to do - and I'm not limiting myself to the title of "copywriter".

I'm not going to tell you my plan, or what I DO call myself, or anything else. Because I'm not going to try and sell you anything, and therefore it really isn't anything you need to know.

.....

It isn't even that they pay you more, it is that they VALUE you more. Whole different mindset.

Go out and HELP them. They will VALUE you. And you'll build a fantastic BUSINESS helping business owners succeed.

The bottom line of the original post was... For heaven's sake, whatever you're going to do - get out there and DO it!

- Cherilyn

Two fantastic points, and from such a young one! Very insightful.

1) I agree - IM = IM = IM
Whether you are selling your services to a local restaurant, or a guy learning IM in his basement or to hundreds of people at a $$$ seminar... its all the same. Its the CLIENT/CUSTOMER that changes... and helping local businesses is a market that is wide open for the right people.

2)Price <> Value
For a small local business, $1,000 might be ALOT to pay for a website. For a Fortune 500 company, it would be a footnote on the invoice. But VALUE is key. Those that value your services will come back again and again, and they will refer you to everyone they meet.

There seems to be alot of people who are only focused on making huge gobs of money. I personally don't have a problem with that, but its poor "manifesting" and I don't think it makes most people happy.

I have found that there is a ton of personal satisfaction and joy that comes from helping people succeed. Its what makes the job worth doing.

Don't get me wrong - money is reeeeaaally nice to have. But, I would guess that a large majority of the warriors on this forum could be making more money TODAY if they were doing something they didn't enjoy...

The small business market is NOT for everyone... but its great for those that resonate with it.

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JohnSpangler

16 years ago

Mickey,

That is absolutely spot on, these companies love the fact your in their backyard and would gladly pay a little extra knowing that you are right
down the street.

Now the truth is that this is a double edged sword because if you don't
provide good service since this is your locale they'll find you very easy
and drag your name then on the flip side that if you truly care about
these companies they'll be so grateful for your help that they'll refer
more business to you because you are good and local.

John

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Mickey Wong 16 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnSpangler

Now the truth is that this is a double edged sword because if you don't provide good service since this is your locale they'll find you very easy

John,

If ever an incentive was needed to provide good service then this is it, especially if you live in some really rough neighborhood. Fortunately, mine's pretty civilized. Even so, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night (or take a walk down my street) knowing I didn't do my best for my clients.

Mickey
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FlightGuy

16 years ago

I also applaud your effort, Cherilyn.

You conquered a few things here:

1.) Overcame an apparent inner fear of being dismissed
2.) Overcame the infamous, "what should I charge?" constraint
3.) Closed the deal, made some money, and gained EXPERIENCE
4.) Created a "business contact"
5.) Established the start of your portfolio
6.) Posted here on the WF and inspired many about your success

GREAT start, I'd say.

Remember:

"Ability is what you're capable of doing,
Motivation determines what you do,
Attitude determines how well you do it."

[- quote by Lou Holtz]

So again, great start, keep up the good work and make sure to keep us posted of your progress with details. It's a proactive way to keep your brain thinking positively by keeping everyone updated here.

Kindest,

John Dennis

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JohnMcCabe

16 years ago

Originally Posted by jan roos

So people who are trying to learn how to do these things and asks for help in an "internet marketing forum" is fools that pee's in your pool?

One thing I really like about you is your willingness to help when people post questions like "how can an attorney use an autoresponder"

A lot of people here including myself are very serious about this business model and might not be as experienced and skillfull as you or others on here and thats why we come heer and ask and learn.

As far as the outsourcing goes, yes a client will be much better off hiring me to "outsource his web design and SEO" to a person on this forum than to pay the local web design company 12K for a pretty website without proper SEO or even a lead capture page.

I think you're just having a bad day though because this was the first negative posts i've seen you make.

Cheers

Jan, you are correct. Reading that back after a good night's sleep, I realize it came out more harsh than I intended.

Yes, there are a lot of serious people (like you) who are always trying to learn more. Heck, I'm always trying to learn more.

And when I sense that's the motivation for a request for advice or help, I'll keep helping. People like that weren't the target for that shot.

There are also a lot of people who see real-world business owners as a fresh crowd of marks they can make some fast cash on. There are also people who see the interest in this topic and slap together a product the same way they slap together a product for any other 'niche' they smell a profit in. They are my target.

I don't mind the ignorant (as in 'don't know something'), it's the lazy that trip my trigger. There's a big difference between 'what could an attorney put in a newsletter' and 'could you post a complete set of autoresponder messages I can use'.

I also have nothing against outsourcing as such. For example, other than fairly simple stuff, I rarely attempt to do my own programming any more and I royally suck at graphics. I do, however, know enough to tell if someone is trying to blow sunshine up my leg.

To be fair, if I were to charge anyone for graphics or more than superficial programming, I would be doing them a disservice. And I'm sure that as time goes on, I'll end up farming out some of the things I am competent with because I'll have more profitable uses for that time.

If I seemed to target people who are serious about learning to provide useful services, and providing value to their clients, my apologies.

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Cherilyn Woodhouse

16 years ago

Originally Posted by FlightGuy

You conquered a few things here:

1.) Overcame an apparent inner fear of being dismissed
2.) Overcame the infamous, "what should I charge?" constraint
3.) Closed the deal, made some money, and gained EXPERIENCE
4.) Created a "business contact"
5.) Established the start of your portfolio
6.) Posted here on the WF and inspired many about your success

Just for a little clarification here, so people don't misunderstand...

1. Yes, that was a big one for me.

2. That wasn't really an issue, I know I should have charged about $2500 for that site if it had been a business, and I probably would have quoted that under those circumstances. I have lots of experience working out what to charge, being a copywriter for the last 2+ years full time and nearly 5 part time.

3. The only thing I didn't really have experience in was selling this exact product to local people... I have boatloads of sales experience, and lots of experience designing sites. And the money was really a side point, my copywriting business brings in plenty. I used it to buy party favors for my sister's baby shower.

4. THAT is important here. Even though he isn't a business owner, that doesn't rule out his friends and contacts. When he comes to review everything with me for the final time, I'll be sure to let him know about my referral system (which is already in place from copywriting). If nothing else, if you're going to be working as a consultant, have a referral system in place.

5. I already have a portfolio, and this site won't be going in it... It directly flies in the face of many elements of design and persuasion that I implement on most client sites, but I created what he wanted and what he is happy with and that is the most important.

Besides, I didn't write any of the content, so it would be unfair to put it in my already extensive copywriting portfolio.

6. I sure hope so! But I probably won't be posting updates on my progress in the "offline niche", the lines are too blurred with my line of work. I'm still a copywriter, and I still work with online and offline clients big and small. I don't want people to think it's too easy, I have a lot of experience that guided me through the process.

The bottom line is, if you get off your duff and do something, the laws of physics state that SOMETHING will happen in return. So stop procrastinating, and give it a try.

- Cherilyn

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Melody

16 years ago

Cherilyn -

Kudos! You set yourself up for a great long term relationship and a wealth of referrals. Yes, you could probably have charged more but would that have gotten you the same emotional response from your client? From the sounds of this client - probably not. Will this client tell others about his great experience with you? You bet!

There are a lot of ways to price your services - but the bottom line is that it has to be a price structure that is comfortable for BOTH you and the client. If you feel like you are ripping off the client - the client will feel your hesitation and respond with a 'wall' to the close.

As your confidence and your portfolio grows - so will your rates.

Congrats!

Melody

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a2dsilva

16 years ago

The OP gave me an idea. Although I know a lot of people on the thread have mentioned the benefits of being local I think there is a huge advantage to advertising in local free papers of other small cities and towns.

I remember when I was living in a few small towns in Southwestern Ontario each town had only a few webdesign firms - the sites produced were quite unprofessional and definitely very little SEO - Unfortunately then I worked for a company that had a no-compete contract with each of the cities I consulted with so I couldn't do my own web design.

I did do some websites after leaving the company and coming back to the big city and I'm thinking I can easily start up again.

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w123 16 years ago

thats a great story. I can't believe all the people saying you undercharged, which perhaps you did, but I'm sure that the $ wasn't the point of it. Just think of the excellent referrals you can get from these guys. Besides $250 for a few hours work... thats not too shabby (even if you could have got more). I know lots of people right now that would be ecstatic getting "just" this amount for doing the work.
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