Amazon Rating System for WSOs

13 years ago

I don't think it's necessary to implement that, I personally think testimonials are fine. I think that would be a big feature to add to the forum too (allot of work).

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Ken Strong

13 years ago

Suggestions like these for the WSO section have come up many times already. People who have purchased can leave feedback in the threads. There are already constant complaints from members who allege that the positive reviews are fake and/or purchased, the negative reviews are deleted, etc. so not sure why some kind of star-rating system would be any improvement or any less vulnerable to gaming and complaints.

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Rod Cortez

13 years ago

^^^^ What Ken wrote. People already leave their feedback, both the good and the bad, in the actual WSO thread itself.

Negative comments are only removed when they go against the rules. For example, making a negative comment about the product or service and not having purchased it and the WSO is not breaking any of the forum rules. Also making negative comments about the actual sales process is not allowed (again, if it's not breaking any of the rules).

Negative comments ARE allowed if there are no personal attacks, are short and objective (within reason of course) and it is relevant to the product or service itself. They are also allowed if the original WSO post violates any of the rules or any obvious laws (such as copyright or trademark infringement or violates the TOS of another website).

This doesn't cover everything, of course, but should give you a general idea.

RoD

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Michael Oksa

13 years ago

Originally Posted by DoubleOhDave

Wouldn't it be a good idea if we could have a rating system for WSOs along the lines of Amazon's one where people who buy could vote out of 5 stars and if they left comments others could click a button for "x" number of people found this comment helpful?

In a world so perfect that such a rating system would work, that same rating system would not be needed.

Just wondering if people thought the benefits would outweigh the drawbacks?

BENEFITS:
Another way to offer feedback.

Feedback could be rated.

.

DRAWBACKS:
Too easy for sellers to get their friends to call positive comments helpful, and to call negative comments as unhelpful.

Sellers could offer bonuses for high ratings.

It's too "easy". The rater wouldn't have to EXPLAIN the reason for their rating, and this would remove the context of the rating.

Gaming the system would be simple.

There would be no way to call people out who rate something as helpful or unhelpful.

.

Our current "rating system" actually works pretty well, or at least has the potential of working well. Whether it lives up to that potential is dependent upon people participating or not.

In other words, the current system itself is great.

All the best,
Michael

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marketwarrior06

Banned 13 years ago

Yes its definitely a good idea. And we all know that why its not possible

The main reason is that most of the WSOs are crap. So most of them will get a low rating and the sells will be decreased. and the earning of WF will also be reduced

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Michael Oksa

13 years ago

Originally Posted by marketwarrior06

Yes its definitely a good idea. And we all know that why its not possible

The main reason is that most of the WSOs are crap. So most of them will get a low rating and the sells will be decreased. and the earning of WF will also be reduced

So you have purchased every WSO, and made an objective assessment of their crappiness?

If so, then how often have you commented in the WSO itself?

If you bought it, then you can comment.

If you didn't buy it, then you have no way of knowing.

Or, are you just making unfounded comments?

Just curious.

All the best,
Michael

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

The main reason is that most of the WSOs are crap. So most of them will get a low rating and the sells will be decreased. and the earning of WF will also be reduced

If that was a basis for policy, we really would delete all the negative reviews. And we wouldn't ban sellers for breaking the rules. We'd probably just shut down the section for comments, and let people post testimonials they claimed to have gotten via email or PM.

I find it interesting how many of these comments lately come from the city you live in. It's huge, as cities go, but not so big that it should generate 3-5 times as much spam and BS here as the entire population of the United States. And yet, it does.

You have exchanged PMs with exactly one person. A search of the WSO section for your username shows no results. If the latter is correct, that means you have never posted in that section. Of course, you could be posting there under a different username.

Based on the available evidence, it's likely you've never seen a WSO unless you stole it. So, yeah. You're a real credible critic.

Go away, before someone drops a house on you, too.

Paul

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Michael Oksa

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

If that was a basis for policy, we really would delete all the negative reviews. And we wouldn't ban sellers for breaking the rules. We'd probably just shut down the section for comments, and let people post testimonials they claimed to have gotten via email or PM.

I find it interesting how many of these comments lately come from the city you live in. It's huge, as cities go, but not so big that it should generate 3-5 times as much spam and BS here as the entire population of the United States. And yet, it does.

You have exchanged PMs with exactly one person. A search of the WSO section for your username shows no results. If the latter is correct, that means you have never posted in that section. Of course, you could be posting there under a different username.

Based on the available evidence, it's likely you've never seen a WSO unless you stole it. So, yeah. You're a real credible critic.

Go away, before someone drops a house on you, too.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Would it be possible to just start handing out temp bans for anybody who spouts this "all/most/the majority of all WSOs/IMers/sellers are crap/dishonest/ripping you off" stuff?

I'm not saying it should be a rule, just a way of helping people decide if they really want to be in a place that they think is so awful.

All the best,
Michael

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Michael,

Would it be possible to just start handing out temp bans for anybody who spouts this "all/most/the majority of all WSOs/IMers/sellers are crap/dishonest/ripping you off" stuff?

Unlikely, unless it's a truly obvious situation, like with this fellow. I did turn his sig off, to help him decide if this is somewhere he wants to play, though.

If someone thinks baseless allegations of fraud against their host are appropriate, I think it's appropriate to refuse them free advertising in return.

Paul
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Paul Myers

13 years ago

By the way, leaving aside the potential for gaming the system, a rating process like that would require that whatever plugin/add-on powered it be able to verify that the person doing the rating had actually purchased the product.

Considering that we've got people selling directly through Paypal, and also using Warrior Plus, DigiResults, JV Zoo, Mooshpay (sic?), and others coming down the pike, what do you think the odds are that it could be done, just from a technical perspective?

Remember: No-one who's involved in the operation of the forum handles any of the money from those transactions, or has any way to be sure who's bought what.

Paul

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Bjarne Eldhuset 13 years ago

You could put your information product on amazon, and later offer it as wso. That way people could read the comments on amazon before they decide if they want to purchase your wso.
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- Paul Myers 13 years ago
  
  Bjarne,
  
  You could put your information product on amazon, and later offer it as wso. That way people could read the comments on amazon before they decide if they want to purchase your wso.
  
  Conceptually, that's funny.
  
  In practice, it wouldn't work. As soon as you posted it here, you'd be breaking the rules either for the WSO section or for Amazon. Amazon will shut your account down if you're giving a better deal outside their marketplace.
  
  Paul
  
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GarrieWilson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

By the way, leaving aside the potential for gaming the system, a rating process like that would require that whatever plugin/add-on powered it be able to verify that the person doing the rating had actually purchased the product.

Considering that we've got people selling directly through Paypal, and also using Warrior Plus, DigiResults, JV Zoo, Mooshpay (sic?), and others coming down the pike, what do you think the odds are that it could be done, just from a technical perspective?

Remember: No-one who's involved in the operation of the forum handles any of the money from those transactions, or has any way to be sure who's bought what.

Paul

Or do like Amazon and NewEgg, put verified purchase. An API could easily determine if its done and the sites that greatly rely on the WSO forums, (JV Zoo, WSO+), could be required to pass the data. If they don't/won't, block their access.

Not hard at all.

It could, maybe should be, done for people leaving reviews anyway. So people know who paid and who didn't.

Garrie

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Garrie,

Get the folks who run those services to allow the forum software to query their databases, and you pay for the modifications, and I'll bet Allen would go for it. vBulletin can be a pain to hack properly. Just keeping the beast upright takes more effort and time than most people would believe.

The idea doesn't suck. The implementation requirements to avoid gaming of the thing is a whole different story.

Paul
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sbucciarel

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by marketwarrior06

Yes its definitely a good idea. And we all know that why its not possible

The main reason is that most of the WSOs are crap. So most of them will get a low rating and the sells will be decreased. and the earning of WF will also be reduced

What a crock ... same old conspiracy theory. Can't even add a new twist to it. :p

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

There is already something along those lines.

For the "X out of 5 stars" thing, its called "Rate Thread" and is shown at the top of every thread, as you can see in the photo below:

Regarding the "X number of users found this review helpful" - I think the "Thanks" system that is in place is equivalent.

If a review of a product has a lot of "thanks", then chances are the review was helpful to a lot of people

lol

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Lance K

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

There is already something along those lines.

For the "X out of 5 stars" thing, its called "Rate Thread" and is shown at the top of every thread, as you can see in the photo below:

Regarding the "X number of users found this review helpful" - Its called "Thanks"

So if a review of a product has a lot of "thanks" then chances are, it was useful to a lot of people

lol

The "Rate Thread" function is disabled in the WSO forum.

That said, I think the explanations above make it clear as to why it's disabled.

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Robert Michael 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

The "Rate Thread" function is disabled in the WSO forum.

That said, I think the explanations above make it clear as to why it's disabled.

Well damn.

Just shows how often I visit that area of the forum.. *cough, almost never, cough* haha
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DoubleOhDave

13 years ago

Ah! That's a great point - and one I had totally overlooked - thanks for that!

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

There is already something along those lines.

For the "X out of 5 stars" thing, its called "Rate Thread" and is shown at the top of every thread, as you can see in the photo below:

Regarding the "X number of users found this review helpful" - I think the "Thanks" system that is in place is equivalent.

If a review of a product has a lot of "thanks", then chances are the review was helpful to a lot of people

lol

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travlinguy

13 years ago

I can see all the sig files now. Buy WSO likes on fiverr. 10 for a finsky... :rolleyes:

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DoubleOhDave 13 years ago

Originally Posted by travlinguy

I can see all the sig files now. Buy WSO likes on fiverr. 10 for a finsky... :rolleyes:

lol! maybe a WSO on that too!
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GarrieWilson

13 years ago

Get the folks who run those services to allow the forum software to query their databases, and you pay for the software, and I'll bet Allen would go for it.

The forum wouldn't query them. They would post to an API of the forum. As to me paying for it... if it was my forum and I was making six figures a month from it, I would have already.

Garrie

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Garrie,

The forum wouldn't query them. They would post to an API of the forum.

Ah. I misread that. Thanks for the correction.

I suspect that would violate a few data privacy laws, but that could probably be fixed with an adjustment to the membership agreement. Well, and a change in the same for each affiliate system. And assuming they and the vendors were all willing to allow the forum to have their entire client lists.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the amount of info *I* have access to here. I'd damned well not use any system that required that I give a third party my whole customer list that way. But then, I'm weird like that.

I know Allen has always been very reluctant to get involved in any way with the merchant/customer data. I don't blame him.

As to me paying for it... if it was my forum and I was making six figures a month from it, I would have already.

Seeing things from the other side of the mirror, I'm not sure that's a rabbit hole you'd so cheerfully chase anything down.

"Beyond this point be Jabberwocks!"

Paul
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- Paul Myers 13 years ago
  
  Garrie,
  
  Let's suppose for a moment it was you who was running the place, and you did what you propose. What do you think would be the likely outcomes of the following scenarios?
  
  1: Tons of people who buy WSOs are getting spammed, and the sellers deny any involvement. Someone reminds world+dog that Garrie has all those addresses.
  
  2: It becomes common knowledge that Garrie Wilson runs a server with lists of transactional details, including the Paypal addresses and purchase histories of tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands of cash-paying customers.
  
  Want me to go on? I could, you know...
  
  Paul
  
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GarrieWilson

13 years ago

Paul, Paul, Paul...

Allen has EVERYONES email address already. The forum also has transaction details (payment emails) for every WSO, upgraded member, ad ran, etc. Does Allen keep the data longer than needed to approve something? Dunno. He might or might not but I'm sure he keeps some data for charge backs, renewals, etc though.

You also would NOT have those details for buyers.

The Warrior User name could be a hidden variable passed to the order page then upon sucessful payment it posts WARRIOR ID and THREAD ID to the WF API.

Please. Go on. I have solutions for everything

Garrie

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Allen has EVERYONES address already.

AN address for everyone. Not their Paypal address and purchase history.

The Warrior User name could be a hidden variable passed to the order page then upon sucessful payment it posts WARRIOR ID and THREAD ID to the WF API.

Doesn't fix the previously stated potential problems. But it does move in the right direction. Clever. Simple and elegant. I like where it's going, despite still thinking it's a horrifically bad idea.

This just makes 3 servers targets, rather than a single machine.

Paul

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GarrieWilson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

AN address for everyone. Not their Paypal address and purchase history.Doesn't fix the previously stated potential problems. But it does move in the right direction. Clever. Simple and elegant. I like where it's going, despite still thinking it's a horrifically bad idea.

This just makes 3 servers targets, rather than a single machine.

Paul

Read my edited post.

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GarrieWilson

13 years ago

I like where it's going, despite still thinking it's a horrifically bad idea.

How is a rating system horrible?

As to hacking three systems, there would be ZERO reason to hack the WSO system. The data would be public. It would be listed on their comment of the WSO.

The two problems you mentioned, to me, wouldn't be problems.

-g

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Garrie,

It is generally considered poor netiquette to edit a post which has been replied to in ways that make it look like the person replying missed obvious statements. That's what further comments are for.

How is a rating system horrible?

It isn't, if it can be made to work, and to serve some purpose that customer reviews don't.

The forum also has transaction details (payment emails) for every WSO, upgraded member, ad ran, etc.

And you believe those are stored on the forum servers?

No. The only things stored on the forum servers relevant to those transactions are flags in a database.

When someone buys an ad or a War Room membership, they know that action will be publicly observable. For ads, it has to be, or they're wasting their money. They CHOOSE to make that info public. Same with reviews. (Which is one reason some customers may choose not to leave a comment on a purchase.)

I don't like the potential issues involved with storing purchase information the customer didn't know would be shared. Too much room for abuse and allegations of abuse, just by the existence of that information in a place it doesn't need to be. And that's just from the perspective of a member.

If I were Allen, I wouldn't even think about something like that without a very real and strong purpose that served the members. As the suggestion stands now, I don't see any such need being answered.

All this kind of rating system would do is create an easy index for people to make more unthinking assessments. No useful context would be conveyed, and it would be one more thing idiots could run around claiming we'd rigged when they disagree with the other customers.

Paul
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sbucciarel

Banned 13 years ago

This gets dabated every now and again and I always wonder what the reasoning behind people wanting little bells and whistles that will not work as intended when there is already a more than adequate system in place.

1. Buy WSO
2. Use and evaluate WSO
3. Leave review in WSO thread

Simple and uncomplicated solution, yet people want extra programming, itty bitty little starts, etc.

Personally, I hate the stars in the Warriors for Hire. All of my clients have been very happy with their work and yet, my thread started out with, and may still have a 1 star rating. Why? Because some of the competitors on this forum are a bunch of douchebags, and rather than compete head on, they think by rating my thread 1 star I'll lose business.

There was another designer who's title was something like .... so good that my competitors hate me ... want proof? Look at the stars on my thread.

And it's true. Petty people who can't compete in an honest way on talent, try every stupid little trick in the book to discredit you. Amazon's system is no different. It's gamed all the time, both for and against a product.

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DoubleOhDave

13 years ago

Some good points there - I didn't realise the system already had something in place like this anyway (see above) so it's a moot point now but some interesting debate on it nonetheless...

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

This gets dabated every now and again and I always wonder what the reasoning behind people wanting little bells and whistles that will not work as intended when there is already a more than adequate system in place.

1. Buy WSO
2. Use and evaluate WSO
3. Leave review in WSO thread

Simple and uncomplicated solution, yet people want extra programming, itty bitty little starts, etc.

Personally, I hate the stars in the Warriors for Hire. All of my clients have been very happy with their work and yet, my thread started out with, and may still have a 1 star rating. Why? Because some of the competitors on this forum are a bunch of douchebags, and rather than compete head on, they think by rating my thread 1 star I'll lose business.

There was another designer who's title was something like .... so good that my competitors hate me ... want proof? Look at the stars on my thread.

And it's true. Petty people who can't compete in an honest way on talent, try every stupid little trick in the book to discredit you. Amazon's system is no different. It's gamed all the time, both for and against a product.

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BloggingPro

13 years ago

I think the WSO review system is fine as is. Additionally, I could really care less if someone else found a review helpful, even on Amazon. A bunch of extra data for the server to handle if you ask me.

If it came to a vote (which it certainly will not) I'd keep the system as is.

Buy a product, leave review. Pretty simple if you ask me.

BP

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Amazon Rating System for WSOs

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