double or single opt-in?

64 replies
Hey

I have just read an ebook from getresponse about single and double opt-ins....

Here's what they say:
According to the analysis, messages sent from accounts using confirmed opt-in returned 71% higher Open Rates and 66% higher Click Rates than accounts using unconfirmed opt-in. That's close to double the performance results!

That's not all! There were 75% fewer bounces (undeliverable messages) in accounts where users applied confirmed opt-in versus accounts where users chose the unconfirmed opt-in option.
Moreover, accounts using confirmed opt-in experienced almost 40% fewer spam complaints!

Advantages of confirmation opt-in
Based on these stats, imagine the difference confirmed opt-in could make in the success of your email campaigns. Here are just a few of the advantages:
  • Your recipients open your messages more willingly, because they chose to subscribe to your list.
  • Usually, recipients remember they subscribed and rarely send spam complaints to your email marketing provider (e.g. GetResponse) or your Internet Service Provider (ISP).
  • You get much better click-through ratios, which can lead to higher sales ratios.
  • You gain higher-value customers and fewer unsubscribes overall.

So here is my question:
What do you guys use for your lists (especially solo ad sellers)??
Do you go for the easy variant and use single opt-in and have subscribers immediately in your list (with the risk that they never open your mails), or do you tend to use the double opt-in but take longer to build your list?

thanks for your feedback
#double #optin #single
  • Profile picture of the author jimmyjackson
    I just got tired of seeing too many unconfirmed opt ins so I'm currently trying single to see how it goes. If those stats are correct though, double might still be the way to go as I only lose about 10 - 15% of people because they never confirm.

    Thing is these people who don't even bother to confirm are probable never going to buy anyway, so I guess you don't really lose anything.

    Anyways, I'll test and see!
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    • Profile picture of the author Miguelito203
      Originally Posted by jimmyjackson View Post

      I just got tired of seeing too many unconfirmed opt ins so I'm currently trying single to see how it goes. If those stats are correct though, double might still be the way to go as I only lose about 10 - 15% of people because they never confirm.

      Thing is these people who don't even bother to confirm are probable never going to buy anyway, so I guess you don't really lose anything.

      Anyways, I'll test and see!
      When it comes to the double-opt in issue, I tend to agree that those people are freebie seekers and not likely to buy anything. I've actually had a couple of people tell me that I should run my blog without using affiliate links and just give away free information all the time, so they don't have to spend any money. I told them they were nuts and to think of making money online like paying for college.

      Joey
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    • Profile picture of the author alodie
      Hi Jimmy,

      I think you are very correct: "Thing is these people who don't even bother to confirm are probable never going to buy anyway, so I guess you don't really lose anything."

      I know that sometimes, I might have done the same thing: not confirm. But in those cases it has almost always been that the response email did not seem to come immediately, and I get tired of waiting to see it drop into my email inbox.

      I am not sure why that happens. But when it does, it annoys me terribly.

      I think it boils down to the email system that you are using. And by the way, if the email system requires you to do double opt-in, you probably should be careful and take heed that you do.

      Alodie
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  • Profile picture of the author marcos08
    I am surprised by those stats, so may change what I do , when I use aweber I have no choice but double optin, however most of my stuff is now with GR and I have always chosed the single optin, may review this now......thanks for the info
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by surffab View Post

    • Your recipients open your messages more willingly, because they chose to subscribe to your list.
    And the single opted-in ones didn't "choose to subscribe to your list"?! This doesn't make much sense, does it? And even if it were true, using single opt-in would still leave you with all the same people who would have confirmed, if you were using confirmation, wouldn't it? It's not as if using single opt-in instead of confirmed opt-in loses you one single person? So this "reasoning" isn't too impressive.


    Originally Posted by surffab View Post

    • Usually, recipients remember they subscribed and rarely send spam complaints to your email marketing provider (e.g. GetResponse) or your Internet Service Provider (ISP).
    This is no more logical, either: whether someone "remembers" has nothing to do with whether they confirmed their address at the time of the opt-in. Seriously, who's going to remember that, months later? Whether people complain to your autoresponder company depends on what you send them, not on whether you got them to confirm their email addresses.

    Originally Posted by surffab View Post

    • You get much better click-through ratios, which can lead to higher sales ratios.
    For me, this was simply untrue. I had no better CTR's with confirmed opt-in than I now have with single opt-in.

    Originally Posted by surffab View Post

    • You gain higher-value customers and fewer unsubscribes overall.
    Why do you "gain higher-value customers"?! I don't believe a word of this.

    Which customers do you lose by using single opt-in instead of confirmed opt-in? Now, let me see ... ah, yes, that's right: the answer would be none at all!

    And "fewer unsubscribes" isn't an advantage at all, is it?

    I want to make it as easy as possible for people who don't want to be on my list to unsubscribe. There's no point at all in sending email to people who have changed their mind about wanting to receive it, is there?

    This is what I always find, in discussions of "single and confirmed opt-ins": the arguments and "evidence" adduced in favor of the confirmation (it isn't really "evidence" at all, of course - it's only unsubstantiated personal beliefs) simply don't stand up to examination at all, to anyone with much experience of actually earning most of their living this way.

    Originally Posted by surffab View Post

    What do you guys use for your lists
    I switched a long time ago from confirmed opt-in to single opt-in, and benefited significantly from it, in all of my niches.

    Originally Posted by surffab View Post

    Do you go for the easy variant and use single opt-in and have subscribers immediately in your list (with the risk that they never open your mails)
    I don't acknowledge that risk: the reality is that they're no less likely to open my emails just because they haven't been through email-address confirmation at the time of their original subscription! Like many other experienced email marketers here who use single opt-in, I've done both and seen for myself. Some of your reasoning is mistaken, here: you're assuming that an individual subscriber's prospects can somehow be "improved", from your perspective, by having him confirm his email address - and that just isn't so.

    Collectively, they may be a little different, but that's because there are more of them, when you don't ask for confirmation: it isn't because you've lost any of the good ones! You've just added more people - some good and some bad. If the few "bad" ones lower the "average quality", it still increases your income.

    There are invariably more subscribers to start with, when you use single opt-in.

    If you use opt-in confirmation, absolutely everyone successfully subscribed to your list would also have been subscribed to the same list if you'd used single opt-in instead. Not a single person would have been "lost" by using single opt-in instead. This much is pretty unarguable, it seems to me. Their open-rates aren't any higher just because you asked them to confirm their email addresses at the time they originally opted in. The additional subscribers you'll have by using single opt-in instead may, overall, be "of lower average quality" than the first group and may open fewer emails, I suppose. Some people apparently mind that, while others don't. I don't. They're only "additional" people, anyway - it's not as if anything's actually been lost.

    Using single opt-in instead doesn't - and can't - somehow reduce the "quality" of the people who would successfully have confirmed their email addresses anyway. They're all still there.

    To me - and this is point I admit is purely a subjective one - it's also very telling that in all the WF threads dicussing "Single or Confirmed Opt-In?" almost all the marketers I trust and respect and think are highly successful are the ones consistently speaking out in favor of single opt-in.

    For myself, I'm unreservedly pleased that I switched to single opt-in, and I've gained significantly from having done so.
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    • Profile picture of the author moneylover24
      How do you add an email with video to any autoresponse I plan to use get response and listwire or whatever works
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by moneylover24 View Post

        How do you add an email with video to any autoresponse I plan to use get response and listwire or whatever works
        Use html mail and the standard embed code. If the reader's email client allows the outside content, it will display.

        Back that up with a "if you can't see this video" link.
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  • Profile picture of the author surffab
    Thanks a lot for your feedback, especially to Alexa, always a pleasure to see your comments.
    I'm glad that you go for single opt-in. I was always doing this because most of the eboosk/WSOs and so on teach this.... then I saw those stats of getresponse and was wondering what others are using, if there is a trend to change to double opt-in or not....
    So I think I will also stay with single opt-in and completely agree that in the end what matters is the content of the mail you send out (like subject, header, content of the mail and so on....)
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  • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
    There are two very important words in email marketing: "It depends." Double opt-in is a best practice which is a standard for ESPs. We aren't writing the bible here, we are giving people something to think about. We regularly do analysis of such things and post the results and our conclusions. Those conclusions may jive with your experience or they may not. We can only go by the data we collect. The only absolute I can give you is that you should consider such conclusions and test to see what works best for you as the individual marketer.

    Test, test and test.

    Regards,
    jim
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  • Profile picture of the author adrian49
    Interesting statistics, but I've always got a lot more optins using single optin than with double. In the early stages the relationship is rather tenuous, so I think its not a good idea to make them jump through too many hoops.
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    • Profile picture of the author TheInternet
      I look at it from a different perspective: The double opt-in is a second chance to put your name and brand in front of the subscriber right after they subscribe. That makes you more memorable, so they're more likely to recognize you when you start sending messages to them.

      That said, I would consider single opt-in if I used a provider that allowed it.
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      • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
        Originally Posted by TheInternet View Post

        I look at it from a different perspective: The double opt-in is a second chance to put your name and brand in front of the subscriber right after they subscribe. That makes you more memorable, so they're more likely to recognize you when you start sending messages to them.

        That said, I would consider single opt-in if I used a provider that allowed it.
        GetResponse offers the option of single opt-in. Options are always good.

        Regards,
        jim
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        • Profile picture of the author TheInternet
          Originally Posted by JimDucharme View Post

          GetResponse offers the option of single opt-in. Options are always good.

          Regards,
          jim
          I'm currently benefiting from MailChimp's free 2000 subscribers (until I can afford a paid provider). I only promote my own stuff, so their perspective on affiliate marketing isn't an issue for me.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by TheInternet View Post

        The double opt-in is a second chance to put your name and brand in front of the subscriber right after they subscribe.
        And so is the first email of the series if they're single opted-in. It goes out at exactly that time, and also puts your name and brand in front of the subscriber, doesn't it? So what kind of logic is this?

        Originally Posted by TheInternet View Post

        That makes you more memorable, so they're more likely to recognize you when you start sending messages to them.
        How on Earth is a confirmation request supposed to make you "more memorable" than your first email does? On which planet, and why?!

        Sorry to heckle so much, but honestly, every thread on this subject is very similar: some of the alleged "arguments" adduced in favor of confirmed opt-in really don't even stand up to examination for a second.

        Originally Posted by TheInternet View Post

        I'm currently benefiting from MailChimp's free 2000 subscribers (until I can afford a paid provider).
        Good luck moving the list, when you can afford it. If you'll excuse a nosey question, if you're selling your own stuff, how many subscribers do you need, to cover the $15 per month (and first month free) that you'd need to use a proper autoresponder instead?

        Originally Posted by TheInternet View Post

        That said, I would consider single opt-in if I used a provider that allowed it.
        The market leaders, Aweber and GetResponse, both allow single opt-in, and the great majority of their competitors accordingly feel they have to, too, because the market leaders do. For myself, talking of "affording", I can't afford to use one that doesn't allow single opt-in lists to be built: it would cost me a fortune just in lost income, over the years.

        If you're promoting "marketing and business stuff", how professional does it look to be using a free autoresponder? Are you not concerned that people will wonder why they should sign up to the list of someone who purports to be able to teach them about business and marketing stuff, and can't afford a professional autoresponder? I'm not trying to offend you, but the obvious loss of credibility there would disturb me greatly. I certainly wouldn't subscribe, and I'm really not going to be the only one, you know?

        Sorry to sound so disparaging about it, but I think you're shooting yourself in the foot.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          As Internet users get more sophisticated, I find myself moving more towards a mix of single and confirmed opt-ins.

          When I do use a confirmed opt-in (aka, "double opt-in"), it's for a reason that has nothing to do with spam, delivery, freebie hunters, etc. It's for psychological reasons. I do it in a way that deepens commitment and engagement.

          I run a self-hosted system, so I see every spam complaint. Anything addressed to webmaster@, abuse@, spam@, etc. comes to me. I can count the number of complaints in the last year on one hand, and still have enough fingers to make rude gestures.
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        • Profile picture of the author TheInternet
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          [...]
          If you're promoting "marketing and business stuff", how professional does it look to be using a free autoresponder? Are you not concerned that people will wonder why they should sign up to the list of someone who purports to be able to teach them about business and marketing stuff, and can't afford a professional autoresponder? I'm not trying to offend you, but the obvious loss of credibility there would disturb me greatly. I certainly wouldn't subscribe, and I'm really not going to be the only one, you know?

          Sorry to sound so disparaging about it, but I think you're shooting yourself in the foot.
          I'm not really making a business out of it. It's a hobby that runs alongside my personal blog. Sometimes I'll sell something or have a post go big, and I share some ideas/thoughts on it. I don't make guarantees, I just say what I did and what happened.

          If Gary Ambrose (for the tip list) or the folks down the road in Atlanta (MailChimp, for my blog's newsletter) deleted my accounts tomorrow, it wouldn't hurt me at all. I might even get a post out of it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jasmin27
      Originally Posted by adrian49 View Post

      Interesting statistics, but I've always got a lot more optins using single optin than with double. In the early stages the relationship is rather tenuous, so I think its not a good idea to make them jump through too many hoops.
      I completely agree with adrian49 and prefer single optins. However, AWeber does not allow single optins which is a real bugbear of mine. Double optins force people to jump through an extra hurdle when they are trying to make up their minds and is not very helpful.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Jasmin27 View Post

        AWeber does not allow single optins
        Simply not so, Jasmin. I have many single opt-in lists at Aweber, and so do a few hundred (or thousand) other Warriors, some of whom regularly post in these threads. Please excuse the observation that if you'd just read this thread, in which you've posted, you'd have seen this very point discussed, just above.
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  • Profile picture of the author brentb
    Originally Posted by surffab View Post

    According to the analysis, messages sent from accounts using confirmed opt-in returned 71% higher Open Rates and 66% higher Click Rates than accounts using unconfirmed opt-in. That’s close to double the performance results!

    That’s not all! There were 75% fewer bounces (undeliverable messages) in accounts where users applied confirmed opt-in versus accounts where users chose the unconfirmed opt-in option.
    Moreover, accounts using confirmed opt-in experienced almost 40% fewer spam complaints!
    I believe these stats but they are completely misleading. If we delete your whole list except for the handful of people who open every email and click in every email, then your opens and clicks will be 100%, so should we tell everyone they should delete almost their entire lists to get 100% open rates? This is basically the exact same logic that is done in this article.

    DOI is an invention by email services to benefit email services by protecting them against newbie list builders who may try risky behaviors such as misleading for opt ins for example, purchasing bad traffic, etc.

    Aweber & mailchimp experience less spam, so win for them, they could care less if your list is less profitable.

    DOI should ONLY be considered when you are paying on CPA for your traffic. And even then, you will still want to mail the SOI that have not DOI.
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    • Profile picture of the author alodie
      Hi Brent,

      You could be right: "Aweber & mailchimp experience less spam, so win for them, they could care less if your list is less profitable."

      But can you blame them: aweber and getresponse, and the other reputable email services.

      Conducting business online these days seem to be a dangerous habit or preposition.

      But I am sure that although they seem so selfish, they are still trying to protect you, their valued customer by putting these stipulations in place.

      Like I said earlier: "Conducting business online these days seem to be a dangerous habit or preposition."

      Alodie
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      Alodieanne
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      • Profile picture of the author brentb
        Originally Posted by alodie View Post

        But can you blame them
        No but you can't blame me for using another service that will make me more money either.
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  • Profile picture of the author tdanz
    I collect contacts with an optin form to an sql database, and send a welcome message. I export the contacts to an excel file and import them into mailchimp.
    All this to avoid double optin.
    Is there an easier way to do this?
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by tdanz View Post

      I collect contacts with an optin form to an sql database, and send a welcome message. I export the contacts to an excel file and import them into mailchimp.
      All this to avoid double optin.
      Is there an easier way to do this?
      Yes: use GetResponse, Aweber, or some other proper autoresponder company instead. (Or there are self-hosted solutions.)
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  • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
    I agree with Alexa on this.

    Personally, I'm on the side of confirmed opt-in. I want to make sure that we stay completely above board and ethical and confirmed opt-in is just taking that extra step to make sure we do.

    HOWEVER, then I started doing PPC purely to build a list. It was working well too... until 2/3 of my opt-ins did NOT confirm! I'm paying hard $$$ to acquire those subscribers and I can't communicate with most of them because they can't be bothered to confirm their subscription. Grrrr!

    It's a good example of "You are not your subscriber/customer" because I ALWAYS confirm when asked to do so. Of course, not everyone understands the process or lives their entire life online like I do...

    But when I'm using PPC to build a subscriber list and 2/3 DON'T confirm... I may as well be throwing that money in the trash -- literally.

    I use AWeber and have been with them a long time (over 10 years), since BEFORE they allowed single opt-in. I didn't even have the option to turn on/off single opt-in -- until I called AWeber recently, screeching about all the money I was losing...

    They were ale to give me the option to use single or confirmed opt-in, but ONLY for future lists -- NOT for any current lists. Good thing I caught this early in my PPC ventures, BEFORE I spent a lot and built up significant list numbers.

    I quickly created a NEW list (and new opt-in form) to replace my main list and put the new form on my website. (My website is heavily customized, so finding the correct places in the PHP templates was a bit challenging and time-consuming, but I got it done.)

    I also collect snail mail and phone info on the backend via my 1 Shopping Cart account. Now, instead of being re-directed to a "Please confirm your subscription" page, they're immediately re-directed to my 1SC page and asked for all of their info. (I consider that my confirmation.) Anyone who submits their complete contact info is much more interested and committed.

    The first time out of the gate, I THOUGHT I got just 8 subscriptions after a day of FB PPC, judging by the 1SC notifications I got. It was very disappointing -- UNTIL I logged into AWeber and discovered a total of 23 MORE subscriptions, most of whom had never confirmed! I was THRILLED to find out that my ad had NOT been a failure, but was instead a huge success. The breakdown was in the subscription process.

    I quickly changed it. I called AWeber, got the option to switch to single opt-in, created a new list, redirecting them to the 1SC page for their full info (instead of a "please confirm" page). Then I tested the SAME ad. I made no changes to the ad itself, only to the subscription process.

    Ironically, I got EXACTLY 23 new subscribers that second day, but this time, my numbers flipped: more than 2/3 filled out the 1SC form -- AND I can communicate with ALL of my subscribers now.

    I was one happy camper after seeing the results of my changes. The good news is that I caught the problem early and fixed it without wasting much time or money.

    I may turn double opt-in back on later, if I become large and well-known and want to protect myself against spam accusations. But for now, when I'm just starting this and want to grow my subscriber base quickly, single opt-in is a great choice.

    Hope that helps!

    Michelle
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Michelle, the key words here are "interested" and "commited". Filling out the contact information serves the same purpose for you as the confirmation click for me.

      I don't tell people they have to confirm. I don't even mention spam, privacy, selling/renting/sharing lists or anything else to do with raising doubts about the safety of their email address.

      I simply ask them to do me a favor and click the link in the test email I send out to make sure everything worked the way it was supposed to, and I got their info safely and accurately.

      When they do, I thank them and ask them to download a free resource (usually a report of some sort) and tell me what they think of it, that many people find it useful. Then I set the stage for the first actual email.

      Confirmations this way have been running ~70-90%. This is people clicking the confirmation link, not necessarily the number of people filling out the form. That's a different metric for another time.
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  • Profile picture of the author 4q
    simple solution, use single opt in and on your squeeze page have this text "as we have not met before, pls check your junk/spam for my message"
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  • Profile picture of the author IanGreenwood
    I recon a lot of these autoresponder stats come from traditional e-Commerce sites rather than IM users. The clients of some of the big e-commerce sites will be very different from those that IM'ers deal with. So, these stats wont be applicable across the board.

    Your response rates for double opt-in will be lower, especially if you are promoting an IM, mass market, free ticket item on your squeeze page. This is because of the type of traffic you're attracting with your opt-in offer.

    Contrast this with say the e-newsletter from USA Today. You are not comparing apples with apples. Each market is different and I don't know that extrapolating anything from a Get Response industry report will necessarily tell you anything useful about your own market except in the broadest possible terms e.g. does email marketing still work???
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    • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
      Originally Posted by IanGreenwood View Post

      I recon a lot of these autoresponder stats come from traditional e-Commerce sites rather than IM users.
      Not in our case. If the data being analyzed is internal, then the majority or a considerable percentage at least of those providing the data would likely be IMers.

      As for why email service providers prefer confirmed opt-in, consider this is one of the only industries which is (in part) regulated by another industry: ISPs. This means that above and beyond the laws in place, the email service providers had to develop what are called "best practices" (double opt-in being one of those).

      "Best Practices" = it depends. It depends on you and your situation and your preferences.

      Regards,
      jim
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  • Profile picture of the author john2010
    (1) If I am not mistaken AWeber still allows single opt-in for new accounts.
    Only if you have turned on confirmed opt-in or AWeber has forced you to, then you cannot go back (easily).

    (2) Open Rates, Click Thru Rates, … all bogus metrics. What counts is your money earned!

    (3) Have you observed big launches in the guru internet marketing space? All single opt-in with only a few exceptions! Why do you think is that? Full inbox, little attention span, ... people might not notice your single "Please confirm" email but may act once they have a couple of messages from you in the box. Confirmed opt-in takes away that opportunity.

    BTW: EU regulations require confirmed opt-in.
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    • Profile picture of the author AlisonM
      Well I just had my fastest ever UNSUBSCRIBE yesterday - double opted in - grabbed my quite valuable free gift - and opted out all within a minute!!

      My answer would be "it depends"

      - if I'm paying out cash for a banner ad, then I might go for the single opt in, as you could get extra subscribers who might otherwise not figure out the double opt in process.

      Kind regards
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  • Profile picture of the author DeanJames
    @AlisonM - What difference does it make if you are paying cash for a banner ad or not. That is immaterial. The simple fact of the matter here is that if you choose double opt-in and your subscriber does not confirm (for *whatever* reason), you've lost them. Period.
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  • Profile picture of the author Laura Raisanen
    I personally prefer single opt-in. They already agree to receive emails from me once, that's good enough for me. If they decide against it, they can always unsubscribe, which would be exactly the same if they agreed to be on my list twice.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mikeyrooney
      I prefer to use single opt in too. I make more money this way
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  • I manage an e-commerce site and I acutally use both. If the customer buys a plugin or theme from my site and opt-in to my mailing list, I use single opt-in because I consider it more important for them to get emails from me (updates, support, new products, etc.). They'll also be more likely to remember purchasing from my site and know that that's why they're receiving the email.

    On the other hand, I have an opt-in on some of my site's forms (contact, WordPress support, etc.) that utilizes the double opt-in. This is because people are less likely to need emails from me and to remember why they're getting them.

    So, in my opinion, I'd consider using both depending on the situation.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jim Cockrum
      Originally Posted by ProServe Web Solutions View Post

      I manage an e-commerce site and I acutally use both. If the customer buys a plugin or theme from my site and opt-in to my mailing list, I use single opt-in because I consider it more important for them to get emails from me (updates, support, new products, etc.). They'll also be more likely to remember purchasing from my site and know that that's why they're receiving the email.

      On the other hand, I have an opt-in on some of my site's forms (contact, WordPress support, etc.) that utilizes the double opt-in. This is because people are less likely to need emails from me and to remember why they're getting them.

      So, in my opinion, I'd consider using both depending on the situation.
      Great advice. Buyers = single opt-in. Prospects = confirmed opt-in. (I don't like the term double opt-in for a few reasons. I prefer to call it "confirmed opt-in").

      I've added over 400K names to my lists over the last 10 years...100% confirmed opt-in the last 7 years w/ no regrets. My "spam" complaint rate is very low. It's not unusual at all for me to send an email to 45K people and get literally ZERO spam complaints.

      I don't want to risk a mean competitor adding dozens or hundreds of false names to my lists and getting me shut down. That's just one justification for confirmed opt-in.

      Yes - it's sad to see the stats on how many folks don't confirm their opt-in, but the benefits of "confirmed" far outweigh the potential risks of going "single" imho.
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  • Profile picture of the author steflove
    I say double
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    @steflove - Did your keyboard run out of virtual ink? ;-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Lindap07
    I think most of the experts recommend double. I had the same issue recently and did some investigating. Double provides better quality leads who dont unsubscribe as easily.
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  • Profile picture of the author maxjpip
    I think that's really easy to decide. I am a subscriber on many list and I think I will open an email as long as it has great info for me, no matter it's double or single opt-in.

    People only opt-in because they "WANT" what you offer or giveaway, report, if they are good and you let them know there are more great useful content on the way, they will wait to open your next email.
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  • Profile picture of the author yakim1
    I'm agree 100% with Alexa on this list building subject. It does not matter if you use double optin instead of single optin if you don't instill the know you, like you, trust you priciples.

    I always use single optin and have very few spam complaints. Maybe one every 2 years. I have my autoresponders set up to remove email bounces if the email bounces two times. This is one way to help keep my list cleaner.

    The problem I worry about more than anything is email spoofing.

    This is where a spammer uses your email address as their sending address and then I get blamed for the spamming and start recieving a lot of bounced emails to my server. I had to delete one of my email addresses to stop one spoofing attack.

    I hope this has been helpful,
    Steve Yakim
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  • Profile picture of the author troy23
    I always used double and switched to single recently.
    What stops me going back to double is the recent Gmail update.
    Can't imagine people bothering to look through their tabs to confirm.
    Maybe though double will become the law at some point.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by troy23 View Post

      What stops me going back to double is the recent Gmail update. Can't imagine people bothering to look through their tabs to confirm.
      If your thank you page, following submission of their email addresses, doesn't advise your Gmail subscribers how to ensure they receive your emails, and they don't look through their tabs, then what possible difference is it going to make to you whether or not you use email address confirmation? If they won't see the confirmation request because it's in their "promotions" folder, then they won't see your emails anyway, even if single opted-in, will they, because they'll all be in the same place?!

      Since you're using Aweber, yourself, you might like to know that emails to single opt-in and confirmed opt-in subscribers are sent out from different servers by Aweber. "Just saying" ...
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  • Profile picture of the author troy23
    Advising them on your thank you page makes no difference at all.
    Some people barely use email.
    People have better things to do in the grand scheme of their day than to go fiddling with their tabs.
    Keep it simple, that's all they ask for.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by troy23 View Post

      Advising them on your thank you page makes no difference at all.
      Oh well, one always has to test these things for oneself, and evidently you have, otherwise you couldn't know that. Most unfortunate for you. (Strange that it seems to make such a huge difference for everyone else who tries it, though?).
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by troy23 View Post

      Advising them on your thank you page makes no difference at all.
      Some people barely use email.
      People have better things to do in the grand scheme of their day than to go fiddling with their tabs.
      Keep it simple, that's all they ask for.
      Maybe I'm missing something here.

      If "people have better things to do than fiddle with their tabs", what's the difference between ignoring your confirmation email and ignoring your promotional email or other communique?

      If they don't see it, it doesn't exist.

      Unless, of course, you enjoy paying higher autoresponder bills for people who ignore your emails because they have better things to do than look for them... :confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author RyanLima
    Ive always used DOUBLE OPT IN!

    The qulaity of the list is much better than SINGLE OPT IN.
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    • Profile picture of the author yakim1
      Originally Posted by RyanLima View Post

      Ive always used DOUBLE OPT IN!

      The qulaity of the list is much better than SINGLE OPT IN.
      If you always use double optin, then how do you know you get a better quality list?

      Best regards,
      Steve Yakim
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  • Profile picture of the author Fazal Mayar
    I changed to single opt in recnetly so i think its for the best
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  • Profile picture of the author troy23
    Well how many times do you check your spam and bin folders?
    Me - hardly.
    The promotios tab is just the equivalent of those.
    If it does not drop in my inbox then I'm not desperate for an IM mail.
    Could that be why read rates have dropped?
    Clever chaps those people at Google I'd say
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by troy23 View Post

      Well how many times do you check your spam and bin folders?
      Me - hardly.
      The promotios tab is just the equivalent of those.
      If it does not drop in my inbox then I'm not desperate for an IM mail.
      Could that be why read rates have dropped?
      Clever chaps those people at Google I'd say
      The only time I check my spam folder is if something I expect and want doesn't show when I want it to.

      I check my promotions tab at least twice a day, because in among the IM stuff and the even more numerous IM crap are other promotions I'm actually interested in.

      Even email that does drop in my main tab only gets opened if it's something I want to see. And the latest JV launch or affiliate product I just can't live without just doesn't tick my box.

      Oh, and I haven't really noticed my read rates dropping.

      As for the folks at Google being clever? I'll give you that one all day long. The new promotions tab has saved me time setting up dozens of filters to send things to the "whenever, if ever" folder.
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      • Profile picture of the author TheInternet
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        The only time I check my spam folder is if something I expect and want doesn't show when I want it to.

        I check my promotions tab at least twice a day, because in among the IM stuff and the even more numerous IM crap are other promotions I'm actually interested in.

        Even email that does drop in my main tab only gets opened if it's something I want to see. And the latest JV launch or affiliate product I just can't live without just doesn't tick my box.

        Oh, and I haven't really noticed my read rates dropping.

        As for the folks at Google being clever? I'll give you that one all day long. The new promotions tab has saved me time setting up dozens of filters to send things to the "whenever, if ever" folder.
        I actually had to go and delete some filters from one of the earlier versions of the Labs feature that led to the tabs. The tabs are that good.
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    • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
      Originally Posted by troy23 View Post

      Well how many times do you check your spam and bin folders?
      Me - hardly.
      The promotios tab is just the equivalent of those.
      If it does not drop in my inbox then I'm not desperate for an IM mail.
      Could that be why read rates have dropped?
      Clever chaps those people at Google I'd say
      If you use Gmail via a client or especially via mobile then you don't even see the tabs. You only see them via the browser or if you happen to install the official Gmail app and according to usage stats the vast majority of people access their Gmail via the default mobile client installed on their phone which has no tabs.

      Regards,
      jim
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  • Profile picture of the author webmonopoly
    Always single if you can!
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  • Profile picture of the author troy23
    I'm glad it's working for you and Alexa.
    I'm probably doing it wrong so whatever I can learn all the better.
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  • Profile picture of the author msmedia11
    For all the "obvious" reasons... double opt-in's get more opens and much higher clicks. You'll also save by cutting down your email marketing list subscribers. Why keep non active subscribers on the list and pay more money?

    A new service that has been in development for 18 months called ListStream.NET -- offers no single opt-in in the control panel. The reason? Single optin catches literally hundreds of spam trap email accounts (expired accounts on Yahoo! and other major ESP) and is reported for spam. Single opt-in is borderline illegal according to spam laws. Opt-In Laws in the USA and EU
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  • Profile picture of the author Luke Corden
    I am in agreement. A single opt ensures the same amount of quality leads as a double opt in. The fact that single opt ins also encourage more bad leads just gives you a chance to convert them with good quality content. You wouldn't have had this option should you have started out at double opt in.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matthew Trujillo
    Double opt in does have it's place. It depends what you type of subscriber is on your list. If you have a free newsletter typically it is a good thing to do double opt in. If you are in this business mostly to market products I prefer single opt when marketing as most people don't care to "confirm" from my experience thus resulting in less leads and less $.
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  • Profile picture of the author Afreeman
    I just have to say that both Lexy and John McCabe have made excellent points in this thread. I always learn a new trick here or a new idea.

    I have tried both and my results were that I got greater opt-ins on the single but I was concerned due to the issue of truly getting a valid email. I don't want to get in a Honey Pot with a bunch of stolen emails in it and then I find out it is now a setup for a fine. So I switched to a dbl opt-in. I am likely going back to a single opt-in after thinking about the logic and my wording in my opt-in message including the needed opt-out required by the AHJs.(Authority Having Jurisdiction)

    I would think twice though of hosting my own Campaign off my own SMTP or ISP especially if on a shared server account. For (1) your limited to how many you can send in one campaign from your own ISP due to a possible high bounce rate ( maybe a 100 or so) and (2) if you have a newly acquired "bad list" you could be responsible on getting your site shutdown or having the IP address Blacklisted ( bad news for other sites on a shared IP/ISP site) .

    I would search for a SMTP provider with remote relay forwarding or an A/R built in the service.

    Respectfully...Just my two cents.
    Steve aka Afreeman
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    • Profile picture of the author taranisman
      Double opt-in does seem a bit, uh, redundant. It does decrease the number of unsubscribes, but I think it's worth a try to convert them off of a single opt-in.
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  • Profile picture of the author sherah
    That said, I would consider single opt-in
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  • Profile picture of the author djneill
    When you use single opt in you the opurtunity to reach more people. The trick is to clean your list of people who havn't open an email in X period of time.
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