Buyer disputes in Paypal for digital product

9 years ago

paypays buyer protection:

PayPal Purchase Protection only applies to PayPal payments for certain tangible, physical goods. Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:

Intangible items, including Digital Goods
Services
Real estate, including residential property
Businesses
Vehicles, including motor vehicles, motorcycles, caravans, aircraft and boats
Custom made items

Point that out in the dispute and you will win. Digital items do not qualify for buyer protection.

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David Allen

9 years ago

One of the problems with selling online, it happens.

One way to look at it is rather than wasting time and energy fighting over a dispute for however much you charged (less than $100?), at the end of the day you are not missing actual stock and your time could be better used making even more money.

I know it sucks big time, especially when it's your first few sales or if money is tight but if your book is as good as you say it is then invest your time doing what you know with positive energy rather than worrying about idiots - who more than likely will never make money with any of the books they scam anyway.

M2c - David

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bob ross

9 years ago

The last thing you want to do is have paypal investigating you for selling make money online ebooks, particuarly when it involves a dispute right off the bat.

You should have just refunded him and closed the dispute. This is business and the trouble of fighting a dispute over a digital product just isn't worth it.

Don't even bother selling any more make money online products without a money-back guarantee from now on anyways.

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pilot35

9 years ago

Originally Posted by bob ross

The last thing you want to do is have paypal investigating you for selling make money online ebooks, particuarly when it involves a dispute right off the bat.

You should have just refunded him and closed the dispute. This is business and the trouble of fighting a dispute over a digital product just isn't worth it.

Don't even bother selling any more make money online products without a money-back guarantee from now on anyways.

I don't think so. I have a verified Paypal account that is in good standing. I will not let this scammer get pass me. I lost a lot in Paypal disputes alone. Since this is an intangible item, I think I have a chance in winning the dispute. I mean, the buyer does not even qualify to open the dispute in the first place right? Also, if they want to investigate my ebook sales, let them. I have nothing to hide.

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Not So New

9 years ago

My advice is to give him a refund and move on ...

You are going to run into this from time to time. Best not to waste your time and money trying to fight a claim.

Just not worth it

-Shawn

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WillR

9 years ago

I win every digital dispute a customer has ever initiated with me. I'm not sure why they even bother anymore.

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Cool Hand Luke 9 years ago

What you should do:

1. Give him the refund. It's not about whether or not you can win the dispute; it's about moving forward and leaving the issue behind you.

2. Blacklist Pakistani buyers (and all the other high-risk countries) from buying. It can you a lot of headaches in the future.
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Alex Blades 9 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

I win every digital dispute a customer has ever initiated with me. I'm not sure why they even bother anymore.

Maybe you can share some tips on how you achieve that, most people have a hard time winning digital disputes
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- GarrieWilson 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Alex Blades
  
  Maybe you can share some tips on how you achieve that, most people have a hard time winning digital disputes
  
  This is how I win 99% of them:
  
  - Use the buyers IP address as the tracking number to reach comments section.
  - Close/send dispute to PayPal saying it's a digital item.
  
  That's pretty much it. Takes under 3 minutes. I don't know why people say to refund, it takes too much time, you won't win, etc. Maybe they are just repeating what others say. :confused:
  
  If you don't accept a shipping address they can't even open one but they can file an unauthorized transaction complaints though but you can win them too.
  
  In the comments request PayPal compare the IP from the purchase and the IP range normally used when logging in. Mention that it will more than likely be the same ISP and geolocation.
  
  Now this doesn't always work but has for me several times in the past.
  
  Garrie
  
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- WillR 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Alex Blades
  
  Maybe you can share some tips on how you achieve that, most people have a hard time winning digital disputes
  
  I simply provide Paypal with proof (the users IP address) that the person bought the product from me and logged into the members area to access it.
  
  After that they have no legs to stand on.
  
  A person can't just demand money back because they change their mind. So as long as I show Paypal they bought the product, accessed it, and I am adhering to my published refund policy (which states only refunds are issued for technical issues), then I win each and every time.
  
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Steve Wells 9 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

I win every digital dispute a customer has ever initiated with me. I'm not sure why they even bother anymore.

Will..... I normally do also...... I usually do not get any at all in the first place, but I would like to know what wording you use? Could you PM it to me when you get a chance?

All the best,
Steve
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Digital Info Diva

9 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

I win every digital dispute a customer has ever initiated with me. I'm not sure why they even bother anymore.

It's sellers like this that have put the Internet into the condition that it's in today. It used to be you could get a refund - no problem. Then again, I'm an honest buyer and only ask for a refund if the software doesn't work or the ebook info is rehashed stuff I already know.

I deal with refunds ALL the time. Back in 2005, no matter how many different ways I stated my refund policy, they came anyway. You can always tell when they are fake, buyer's remorse or genuine. If you're an experienced seller, you just have that gut reaction when you read the request.

Here's my position: I know I'm selling information in a package they won't find elsewhere. It may be priced higher than others in the niche, but it contains MY tips and tricks I learned through experience that worked for me. I also know they will not work for everyone because, well, not everyone has the same background and experience as I have. So my position is, I refund IMMEDIATELY because I don't want the bad publicity - it's not worth it. Remember, negative travels faster than positive.

I'm in different niches and I follow the same principles in each niche.

The high rollers - the ones who are only in it for the glory - they DON'T CARE about the customer because they don't have a conscience. That's why their support systems don't work - they REALLY don't want to hear from you.

So it's up to you, the seller. Who do you want to be? And how many disputes are you willing to accept before PayPal shuts you down?

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WillR

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Digital Info Diva

It's sellers like this that have put the Internet into the condition that it's in today.

Pot calling the kettle black?

It is ACTUALLY sellers like YOU who have put the Internet into the condition that it's in today. Sellers who do NOT stand by their product enough to question refund requests that are not valid.

I stand by all my products. If I sell a piece of software my refund policy guarantees it will work as advertised on the salespage. If you buy my software you agree to that refund policy. That is all one should ever need to guarantee -- that what you are selling does exactly what it says on the box. If it doesn't for whatever reason, then I will happily refund their money. You'd be silly not to. But we all know those types of refunds are the exception not the rule.

So if you are a vendor who simply refunds everyone who asks because you are scared of bad publicity, then you are a slave to the masses and all you are doing is training buyers to expect refunds at the drop of a hat. The reason we all get silly refund requests these days is because of the laxed attitude to refund guarantees -- an attitude that has been created by sellers who hand out refunds all day long.

So sorry, the problem has actually been caused by you and other sellers who agree with your no questions asked refund policy. Not me.

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RDInfo 9 years ago

I agree with WillR, sell a product/service which provides value to the user, be honest and fair about the description and what it can provide, but don't be a slave to the "complainers without a good reason" and to the "defenders of the all should be free".
A deal is a deal, nobody is forced to buy, sellers don't need more unfair rules to cope with.
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Digital Info Diva

9 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

Pot calling the kettle black?

It is ACTUALLY sellers like YOU who have put the Internet into the condition that it's in today. Sellers who do NOT stand by their product enough to question refund requests that are not valid.

I stand by all my products. If I sell a piece of software my refund policy guarantees it will work as advertised on the salespage. If you buy my software you agree to that refund policy. ......

Wow - it's really ALL ABOUT YOU then - not the customer? That's a nice blueprint for making money and you're just the type of seller I'm outing on the 'net today - thanks for stepping up and identifying yourself.

If you did care about your customer, then you would sell your software with a license key and a reasonable refund policy OR a trial period. You say your software works, but what happens when the customer finds out differently?

I'm in this situation with 2 sellers right now.....

There is no refund policy on their sales page; the seller only includes their first name on the page, and there are no legal statements. Usually this would be a BIG red flag, but I purchased on the recommendation of an affiliate I trust. No response to support tickets AT AL, but I continue to receive sales pitches for new WSOs.. The software has an activation key, so all the seller has to do is de-activate the key, refund my purchase, and I'm gone.

The other product is a very high ticket item; one of a kind, blah, blah, blah. It's been a week and the killer plugins must be activated with a License Key. The License Key cannot be found - it's not where the seller said it would be in a pdf and in a video. Open a support ticket and I get jacked around with a canned response. I finally have to YELL at them to get their attention; they send me a License Key; doesn't work. They send me a 2nd License Key, doesn't work. I finally ask for a refund and it's "escalated" to the billing department. No response, but I do receive an email the seller has sent to the buyers telling them all the excuses why things don't work and just hang on because he's about to share some amazing things!! Again - there was no refund policy on the sales page.

Needless to say, I have been forced to open a PP dispute on both products, which I really don't like to do. Both were escalated to PP by the seller, with no response to me, their customer.

So - I guess if I purchased a product from YOU I would just be screwed, huh?

THE INTERNET IS NOT A CASH REGISTER for you to make money. We are supposed to be creating products that solve a problem and deliver on the promise on the sales page. Whether you have an online or offline business, there is always a cost related to doing business; they're called businesses losses and they are a valid tax deduction, so suck it up!

With my offline business, they just wanted to complain IN MY FACE; at least I don't have to put up with that anymore!

I digress... my comments are about running a business; I guess you're just running the buyers.

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WillR

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Digital Info Diva

Wow - it's really ALL ABOUT YOU then - not the customer? That's a nice blueprint for making money and you're just the type of seller I'm outing on the 'net today - thanks for stepping up and identifying yourself.

Who made you the Internet police? Do you have a badge. I have literally thousands of testimonials from VERY happy customers who have purchased my products and achieved results. You can go and look for them. They are there for everyone to see. I also have one of the longest selling WSO's on this forum. You don't do that by treating your customers like crap. You are making one very big assumption. Because I do not honor silly refund requests I am somehow a bad seller? Yeah, ok. :rolleyes: Results speak for themselves so let's leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Digital Info Diva

If you did care about your customer, then you would sell your software with a license key and a reasonable refund policy OR a trial period. You say your software works, but what happens when the customer finds out differently?

You clearly did not read through my post above OR you chose to just ignore what I said so as to think you were still correct. I VERY clearly stated...

I stand by all my products. If I sell a piece of software my refund policy guarantees it will work as advertised on the salespage. If you buy my software you agree to that refund policy. That is all one should ever need to guarantee -- that what you are selling does exactly what it says on the box. If it doesn't for whatever reason, then I will happily refund their money. You'd be silly not to.

Yes, please read that again because you appear to have missed it the first time around. After reading that also tell me how that is an unfair refund policy? I would love to hear your reasoning on that.

Originally Posted by Digital Info Diva

The other product is a very high ticket item; one of a kind, blah, blah, blah. It's been a week and the killer plugins must be activated with a License Key. The License Key cannot be found - it's not where the seller said it would be in a pdf and in a video. Open a support ticket and I get jacked around with a canned response. I finally have to YELL at them to get their attention; they send me a License Key; doesn't work. They send me a 2nd License Key, doesn't work. I finally ask for a refund and it's "escalated" to the billing department. No response, but I do receive an email the seller has sent to the buyers telling them all the excuses why things don't work and just hang on because he's about to share some amazing things!! Again - there was no refund policy on the sales page.

So if I go to a pizza restaurant and they serve me crappy pizza, that means all pizza places must serve crappy pizza right? All you are doing is putting vendors under one big umbrella because of a few purchases you have made. I have bought plenty of products over the years and I could count the issues I have had on one hand. The reason being that I do my research BEFORE I buy. More often than not when a person is continually complaining about bad products or bad service it has a lot more to do with their poor buying decisions than anything else. Sorry, that's just the truth. Ask most of the experienced Warriors around here and I am sure they will all tell you the same thing. They very rarely have any issues with sellers because they buy from reputable people.

Originally Posted by Digital Info Diva

So - I guess if I purchased a product from YOU I would just be screwed, huh?

As we have been through several times already, if you bought from me and the product did not work as advertised you would get your money back. If you bought from me and simply changed your mind then you wouldn't. My sales pages and videos show VERY clearly (in detail) what my products do and so if people go ahead and purchase those products, they know exactly what they are buying. So the only reason they should ever need a refund is if that product does not do what I said it would do. No questions asked refund policies are just for those who can't do a good enough job of selling without them.

Originally Posted by Digital Info Diva

I digress... my comments are about running a business; I guess you're just running the buyers.

Comments like that just make you look stupid. Once again, I'll let my results speak for themselves I'm obviously doing something very wrong because my 20,000+ customers just hate me. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

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An Al 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Digital Info Diva

So - I guess if I purchased a product from YOU I would just be screwed, huh?

Reading comprehension not your strong suit is it? He said he issued refunds per his guarantee if his software doesn't work.

THE INTERNET IS NOT A CASH REGISTER for you to make money.

It apparently is a vehicle for ignoring what someone posts and making up what you want to believe they posted.

Originally Posted by Digital Info Diva
I deal with refunds ALL the time.

Now the picture becomes a little clearer. No wonder you're so concerned about bad publicity, because apparently the bad publicity is justified, lol.
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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Digital Info Diva

It's sellers like this that have put the Internet into the condition that it's in today. It used to be you could get a refund - no problem. Then again, I'm an honest buyer and only ask for a refund if the software doesn't work or the ebook info is rehashed stuff I already know.

So, you know Will and his products? Well, I do. He overdelivers and doesn't sell the usual crapola. No refund policy or limited? Who cares. His product is what it says it is.

Originally Posted by Digital Info Diva

I deal with refunds ALL the time. Back in 2005, no matter how many different ways I stated my refund policy, they came anyway.

Hmmm. I don't. Hardly ever get a refund request, but when I do, it's my decision whether or not to give a refund, as I don't have a refund policy.

Originally Posted by Digital Info Diva

The high rollers - the ones who are only in it for the glory - they DON'T CARE about the customer because they don't have a conscience. That's why their support systems don't work - they REALLY don't want to hear from you.

Wow ... sounds like you buy creepy products from creepy people. I don't have that problem. I do my research before buying and buy from reputable sellers with outstanding products .... like Will and many others on this forum.

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Tim_Carter 9 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

I win every digital dispute a customer has ever initiated with me. I'm not sure why they even bother anymore.

What he said. Me too. You will win the dispute. Don't listen to those telling you to move on, Scammers need to learn the lesson.
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lilc800

9 years ago

Stop using paypal... People take advantage of it even here on The warrior forum.

Use a payment processor that doesn't allow refund (nothing like payza or anything).

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WillR

9 years ago

Originally Posted by lilc800

Stop using paypal... People take advantage of it even here on The warrior forum.

Use a payment processor that doesn't allow refund (nothing like payza or anything).

A surefire way to decrease the number of sales you get.

If your products/services are of good quality then refunds should not be a big issue for you at all. If they are then it's time to look at your own products/services and the places you are advertising them.

A payment processor is not going to fix an abnormally high refund rate.

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Bruce NewMedia

9 years ago

Originally Posted by pilot35

Hey guys,
.....Do you think I have a shot in winning the dispute? I really think he is a scammer attempting to get my product for free. Thanks.

Yes, you could win the dispute, because its digital. And you could win the next one.
But while you are winning these small battles, you may lose the war.

I have had four extensive conversations with PayPal Account Managers this year.

During these talks it was pointed out to me that they monitor the number of Disputes and Chargebacks. (they also monitor the number of refunds/percentage, but you need to be above a certain threshold to get into trouble there).

Disputes add up. If even a few disputes result in Chargebacks, you will wish you had just quickly refunded them.

Once PayPal starts focusing their attention on your account, they look at everything....including what you sell, your advertising claims, your policies, your financial standing, your affiliate arrangements and more.
_____
Bruce

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petelta

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Bruce NewMedia

During these talks it was pointed out to me that they monitor the number of Disputes and Chargebacks. (they also monitor the number of refunds/percentage, but you need to be above a certain threshold to get into trouble there).

Disputes and chargebacks give your account the same red flag as a refund. They aren't look at any harsher. This has been confirmed from my personal contact through PayPal and many other conversations had from friends in the biz.

If you get a bunch of refunds, they look at your account... if you get a bunch of chargebacks/disputes, it's just like you are receiving a bunch of refunds. No different.

You can place a note the buyers see right before being able to follow through with a dispute.

My message says I will fight every dispute that occurs, but if they would like a refund, they simply need to email me. I have won 100% of my disputes.

People always think they are going to win even though I clearly state PayPal's ToS which says plainly they will lose.

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alexnob

9 years ago

Originally Posted by petelta

Disputes and chargebacks give your account the same red flag as a refund. They aren't look at any harsher. This has been confirmed from my personal contact through PayPal and many other conversations had from friends in the biz.

If you get a bunch of refunds, they look at your account... if you get a bunch of chargebacks/disputes, it's just like you are receiving a bunch of refunds. No different.

You can place a note the buyers see right before being able to follow through with a dispute.

My message says I will fight every dispute that occurs, but if they would like a refund, they simply need to email me. I have won 100% of my disputes.

People always think they are going to win even though I clearly state PayPal's ToS which says plainly they will lose.

I DISAGREE! If you're scammed, it just a waste of time trying to contact seller and "ask for a refund" as you said (I dont say "you", I say "all scam sellers"). And who can assure they will never be scammed during his online business? (disregard how hard, how carefully you do research about the sellers, everything can happen), so DISPUTE is a part of game, I don't care if my account was flagged or not, but sometimes, you have to do what you should do.

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10kaday

9 years ago

you will win no chance

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John J M

9 years ago

Interestingly, I'm on the other end of this. I bought something from somebody on this forum, and they never actually delivered. I know - "There's a risk in buying things online." I get it.

But the reality remains: I lost money (it was a middle-ticket kind of item), and when I emailed about a refund, the seller actually told me he would process it. Needless to say, he never processed it, so I opened a dispute after trying to email several more times with no response.

So #2 comment, you're telling me there's no hope and I can't win?

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Mogly

9 years ago

And this is why I hate paypal...

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pilot35

9 years ago

Thanks for the insights guys. I have a conditional refund policy for my sales, that is, the buyer must do all the steps mentioned in the ebook correctly and isn't seeing the desired results. Actually, I've managed to persuade him to close the dispute so now he agreed to close it. Now, I need to know if the buyer can still close it even it already escalated to a claim.

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mgsmith

9 years ago

He won't be able to close it once he escalated the dispute. Paypal will take a look at the issue and decide on it. But you can try contacting paypal.

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Randall Magwood

9 years ago

It's just 1 sale. Refund this guy and restrict him from ever buying from you again, and just keep going on marketing and making money from your ebook.

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Slab

9 years ago

I was refunded for an intangible item.

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Alex Blades

9 years ago

I never really get refunds, but I don't sell alot of units and my products are basically plugins or software, I don't sell products with outlandish claims. I have had 1 or 2 and just brushed it off as serial refunders. Thanks for the ip tip though, never know when you will need to dispute a refund...

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.X.

9 years ago

No reason to hate on, nor fear, Paypal.

1. With digital products there is no buyer
protection. If you can show any evidence
the product was purchased and delivered
then the buyer has no case.

If you can't? Then just post an access
link in the dispute. Case closed.

If you promised a refund, offer that - or
just issue it - AFTER you try this first.

It will be obvious if the person has a legit
claim or if they're truly a scammer and you
can choose which ground you want to stand
on then.

Sure, if you have a higher than normal
number of these you might have an issue
with PayPal but we're not talking hypotheticals -
we're talking about one incident.

I've been with PayPal 15 years have moved at
least $1 million through them without
a single issue (with PayPal).

Just reply with a "Sorry if you didn't receive
immediate access to the product. Here is
your access link. If you need further assistance
please contact our help desk at helpdesk.com"

Regarding chargebacks, that's not an automatic
deal either. PayPal *will* fight for you. I think
I've had one, maybe two chargebacks in 14 years.

X

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.X.

9 years ago

Digital Diva - you have your opinion, respect Will's.

Each of you get to run your own business the
way you see best. Ain't that great?

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mrdomains 9 years ago

Unless your delivery method is similar to WillR, access inside membership area, you won't be able to keep paypal from nagging you about it, and make a note of the incident.

Hving a set of rules people must complete before a refund can be claimed is sort of like entrapment. paypal will not love you because of it.

Pay the refund. An simple e-book isn't worth the trouble and the tons of negative crap you may be getting instead of attracting more buyers.
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alexnob

9 years ago

My own experience: I dispute and escalate twice this year.
1. The first one, I buy a site package (Seo included) on Warrior forum, but the seller disappear after that (just send me the site, no SEO at all).
2. Another case, I buy an adsense site on Digital point forum, the seller receive money, then disappear and never reply.
Let me tell you. In both case, I WIN and get FULL REFUND from Paypal (so please don't be sure if your product is intangible, as long as the buyer provide enough proofs to prove that you're a scammer or your product is not as you claimed, he/she will WIN.
In addition, if you escalte, you will have to wait about 1 month until Paypal give out the final conclusion.
PS: I already bought an ebook from you on DP (not sure it's the same as you mention in this thread), I think it's a good ebook, excluding the most important part about driving traffic. If you have time, can you help me deal with the issues?

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Slab

9 years ago

Originally Posted by alexnob

My own experience: I dispute and escalate twice this year.
1. The first one, I buy a site package (Seo included) on Warrior forum, but the seller disappear after that (just send me the site, no SEO at all).
2. Another case, I buy an adsense site on Digital point forum, the seller receive money, then disappear and never reply.
Let me tell you. In both case, I WIN and get FULL REFUND from Paypal (so please don't be sure if your product is intangible, as long as the buyer provide enough proofs to prove that you're a scammer or your product is not as you claimed, he/she will WIN.
In addition, if you escalte, you will have to wait about 1 month until Paypal give out the final conclusion.
PS: I already bought an ebook from you on DP (not sure it's the same as you mention in this thread), I think it's a good ebook, excluding the most important part about driving traffic. If you have time, can you help me deal with the issues?

In my case, I lost the first time around and they closed the dispute for the intangible item. I reopened, and provided "better" proof, and won the 2nd time.

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Tim_Carter

9 years ago

Originally Posted by alexnob

My own experience: I dispute and escalate twice this year.
1. The first one, I buy a site package (Seo included) on Warrior forum, but the seller disappear after that (just send me the site, no SEO at all).
2. Another case, I buy an adsense site on Digital point forum, the seller receive money, then disappear and never reply.
Let me tell you. In both case, I WIN and get FULL REFUND from Paypal (so please don't be sure if your product is intangible, as long as the buyer provide enough proofs to prove that you're a scammer or your product is not as you claimed, he/she will WIN.
In addition, if you escalte, you will have to wait about 1 month until Paypal give out the final conclusion.
PS: I already bought an ebook from you on DP (not sure it's the same as you mention in this thread), I think it's a good ebook, excluding the most important part about driving traffic. If you have time, can you help me deal with the issues?

You only won because the seller did not escalate and explain the situation, If they had you would have lost. As per Patpals buyer protection plan rules.

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alexnob 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Tim_Carter

You only won because the seller did not escalate and explain the situation, If they had you would have lost. As per Patpals buyer protection plan rules.

How a scammer can "Escalate" and "explain" whey I provide strong proof to prove he/she a scammer?? (via conversation between us). I really doubt your opinion!
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GarrieWilson

9 years ago

Sorta off-topic but..

Depending where you live a cash refund is implied unless a different one is clearly stated. In my state, if I remember correctly - it's been years since I looked, it was 30 days.

So, check with your laws before you decide.

Garrie

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Raydal

9 years ago

"Advertising" here how easily you give refunds is like asking people
to steal your products. I honor refund requests that are within my
policy. Interestingly I find that when you deliver a product within
a membership site rather than the normal download this reduces
refund requests dramatically. Somehow not being able to log in
the site makes the refund tangible.

-Ray Edwards

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Buyer disputes in Paypal for digital product

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