WSO's - A cautionary tale (for buyers and sellers)

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Hi all,

Been on the forum for a good while now and before I say anything, this is NOT a WSO bashing thread. However, there is something that all buyers AND sellers need to be very aware of.

This may have been stated elsewhere, nevertheless ...I'm going to state it here again.

I've made an awesome living using advice from this forum (both public and paid) so I'm not coming at this from an 'angry person' angle.

I've bought a few WSO's over the last 3 years, and usually I discard the ones which are crappy (yes, they do exist) and kept the ones that valuable to me. In fact, I keep them bookmarked so I can refer back to them sometimes.

It's been a while since I've looked at some of these great WSO's, but when I did a handful of them have been taken down. Meaning, the 'login' pages are not there. Even if I go to my original WSO receipt, the links doesn't exist anymore.

Now I'm NOT here to name and shame authors. Personally, it will only haunt their future business if they continue like that. But what I WILL say is: Sellers, please keep your products accessible to those people who have paid for it.

It's unfair to take things down on a whim because it's simply 'old'. Also, even if you HAVE sent out an email, know that certain customers will not be on that list anymore. It's your responsibility to redirect them to the login page, and then instruct them to use that URL in the future. (tip: this is a nice way to re-ignite the flame and perhaps get them on another list).

Now for the buyers: To be honest, it's not your job to make sure what you paid for is always there. However, in the interest of keeping your WSO (especially the ones which actually have information that you could put to use) I would download the product to your computer.

Yes, thus means pdf's, video's, audio's, etc. Make sure they are on your own hard drive so you can go back to it in a couple of years time if you have to.

Again, no hard feelings to any WSO author in particular here (and if you are one of these authors, I suggest you rectify this immediately) ...but do realize that just because you may have moved domain names, or changed hosting, - or just didn't care about your product anymore, there are others who do.

EDIT: In this post I am mainly referring to WSO's that have an online portal, with a login of some kind. This type of WSO typically leads into several modules, with a lot of video content and perhaps even some pdf's and other accompanying resources. This is where I feel it's totally the sellers responsibility to have it up there always, unless he states he's/she's talking it down or moving it elsewhere.

Stuff like one single ebook, or a couple PDF's - that is no big deal. The instructions to download are usually there. However, products with lots of organized video content, and then not telling your customer to download it is a mistake. Make it easy for them (and tell them to download) in case that portal is not around in a couple of years.

Cheers,

Shamir
#buyers #cautionary #sellers #tale #wso
  • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
    That's a great point, Shamir. Just recently I went to some older WSO download pages and they had disappeared.

    Occasionally, it might also be a matter of an old domain not having been renewed.
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
    Shamir,

    As far as I can recall, I've always downloaded the PDF or software immediately after purchasing a WSO, so I've seldom needed to revisit the download page.

    You don't say how long after the purchases you left it before returning, but to be fair, unless it's specified in the original offer, or if ongoing online access or support is intrinsic to the product or service, I think it's unreasonable to expect an offer to be kept open indefinitely - particularly if that product was indeed a "special offer".

    And where possible, as you point out, be sure to download your product as and when you purchase it.


    Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author writeaway
    This is hardly new. Sadly. Also, some older 'successful' Flippa deals suffer from the same patterns
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  • I tell my buyers to download products in 6 months, but I still get angry emails after 5 years saying where is my download link, they never open after downloading. I think people who buy have to download you can't complain after 5 years or call the next generation and say why the site is not up at some point it's over, download the stuff.

    Just my 2 cents. I sent it to the staglers but why do people wait years to open the thing they bought i have no clue then look for someone to blame.
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    • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
      One thing that has happened to me occasionally...

      Sometimes, items that are in zip files don't download correctly, and then they won't open. And I don't always notice it right away because I get distracted and end up forgetting about a product for a while.

      Then, when I try to open it later, I can't, and that's when I'm trying to go back to re-download it...

      I'm getting better about unzipping things right away so that I know whether they work right away and can re-download them in a more timely manner.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Shamir,

    It's been a while since I've looked at some of these great WSO's, but when I did a handful of them have been taken down. Meaning, the 'login' pages are not there. Even if I go to my original WSO receipt, the links doesn't exist anymore.
    What types of products are you specifically talking about? When you state "login" pages, are you referring to membership-type of websites where you have to log in?

    When the product is purchased is the membership site access itself the product or is it a membership site where people have to log on and then download their products? Please clarify.

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author IanGreenwood
    Very interesting thought Shamir Rele

    I have had this trouble as well with other products (not just WSO's).

    My take is that if you sell a product online you should maintain the access link. If you take the product website or download page down, or move it to another site, then it's the seller's responsibility to keep his / her buyers up to date with where they can access their product.

    Even although you have downloaded the product to your computer there are still circumstances where you might want to re-visit the product etc. One of these cases might just be to buy an upsell - think about that.

    Some of the biggest offenders are some of the biggest names in IM. There is one massive name (for obvious reasons I can't actually name him) and he continually closes his "old" products re-badges them and open them up in another site and re-sells them.

    I have had to email and produce receipts and customer numbers from way back, time and time again, to re-gain access to products i have bought previously. This is soooooo irritating, and it's happened at least 6 times to me now!

    One of the most annoying habits is the "lifetime access" that turns out to be around 3 months, and the "lifetime updates" that never happen.

    Good thread... good point.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
      I think it's unreasonable to expect an offer to be kept open indefinitely - particularly if that product was indeed a "special offer".
      Actually no, it's not unreasonable. If you have ANY digital products online, as a seller it is your responsibility to keep it there for your customers. A 'special offer' doesn't mean getting access to it goes away after 2 years (or whatever) It merely reflects a certain price point.

      I think people who buy have to download you can't complain after 5 years or call the next generation and say why the site is not up at some point it's over, download the stuff.
      If you have explicitly told your customers to download the stuff, then yeah, they shouldn't complain. If you made yourself clear, that's totally fine. However, I haven't seen any WSO authors who says "please download this content as it may not be online after X amount of time". I may be wrong since I haven't bought one in a while, but somehow I doubt that's being stated often - if at all.

      What types of products are you specifically talking about? When you state "login" pages, are you referring to membership-type of websites where you have to log in?

      When the product is purchased is the membership site access itself the product or is it a membership site where people have to log on and then download their products? Please clarify.
      I'm not referring to a membership portal. Heaven forbid if somebody buys a membership WSO and then the site goes down. That's just tacky.

      I'm talking about simple 'login to access my product' type WSO's. Typically, it would be a wordpress site with video's and pdf's.

      And I'll say this again: If you are a seller, and you feel after a couple of years your WSO won't be online anymore, tell your customers to download it - or tell them your new location.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
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        Originally Posted by Shamir Rele View Post

        Actually no, it's not unreasonable. If you have ANY digital products online, as a seller it is your responsibility to keep it there for your customers. A 'special offer' doesn't mean getting access to it goes away after 2 years (or whatever) It merely reflects a certain price point.
        Yes, it is unreasonable. It's like getting angry at a retail store that stops selling a product a year after you purchase it.

        It makes no sense and completely unreasonable.

        I go out of my way to avoid buyers with unreasonable expectations. It seems you don't want to take responsibility for downloading and backing up your purchases. Instead you want to put it all on the sellers.
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        • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          Yes, it is unreasonable. It's like getting angry at a retail store that stops selling a product a year after you purchase it.

          It makes no sense and completely unreasonable.

          I go out of my way to avoid buyers with unreasonable expectations. It seems you don't want to take responsibility for downloading and backing up your purchases. Instead you want to put it all on the sellers.
          Hi Thomas, I've edited my OP regarding the type of WSO I'm referring to. Hopefully, you'll see that it makes more sense now.

          >>> http://www.warriorforum.com/main-internet-marketing-discussion-forum/928450-warrior-special-offers-cautionary-tale-buyers-sellers.html#post9131638
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
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            Originally Posted by Shamir Rele View Post

            Hi Thomas, I've edited my OP regarding the type of WSO I'm referring to. Hopefully, you'll see that it makes more sense now.

            >>> http://www.warriorforum.com/main-internet-marketing-discussion-forum/928450-warrior-special-offers-cautionary-tale-buyers-sellers.html#post9131638
            Yes, I do agree that if they offer content that doesn't allow for downloading it should be made available or put in effort to allow customers to download if they do choose to close down the site.

            If there is a lot to download, sellers should give their customers plenty of time to download it.

            Now that is reasonable. Thanks for the clarification.

            Like Garrie, I have had customers come to me wanting something they purchased years ago. I, of course, got them a copy, even if I don't sell it any longer. All of them were quite thankful and it promotes good relations when a seller can do that even if they are not obligated.

            Now, if I had streaming video content that I required people to log in, well, that is a big difference. You either allow people to download what they purchase or you keep it up for them to consume it.

            This isn't a black and white sort of thing so thanks for the edit to make it more clear.

            For those that purchase these types of memberships sites, only purchase from people you know or have a good reputation. Otherwise, ask if you can download the content prior to purchasing. If you don't know them, expect them to disappear. Sadly this isn't uncommon for people selling online.

            As a buyer, I won't purchase anything unless I am ready to consume it and put it into action. That means even if they take it down a month later, I would have got what I needed out of it and got my money's worth.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jassen
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    • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
      Originally Posted by Jassen View Post

      I'll agree with this, within reason. As the buyer, you need to take some responsibility for the accessing and implementation of your purchase. It's reasonable to expect the site to stay up for 3 months, 6 months, a year. However, after a year or two, I see no realistic expectation to be able to access something online. Five years? Absolutely not.

      The same thing applies in the brick and mortar world. Look at return policies, for example, many of which are 30 days. That establishes a reasonable expectation of how long you can expect the store to still exist. Don't buy a shirt today, never wear it, and expect to be able to return it two years from now.
      With respect, your analogy is completely way off here. Unless you misunderstood my original post, this is completely wrong.

      Firstly, the buyer is responsible for implementing. That's correct. But what if it's a noobie who takes longer than 6 months? Should he have to suffer because the seller decided to take it down?

      A product online is exactly that... 'a product online'. Doesn't matter if it's 5 years or even 10 years. If you cannot keep your products online (somewhere, even if has moved location) then you should perhaps sell physical copies where the burden is truly on your customer to retain control.

      Secondly, buying a shirt means it's in your house. The store owner wouldn't then come back and take the shirt away. (which is exactly what happens when authors decided to take down their site with an ONLINE PRODUCT attached to it). Nobody is suggesting returning anything.

      I'm going to say this again here because I don't feel some of us are getting the message. It's the sellers responsibility to keep ONLINE PRODUCTS... well, erm, ONLINE. Unless they state otherwise. (which they SHOULD if they want to move, take it down, or whatever).
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  • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
    So here's the million dollar question - how long do you expect a seller to keep the materials up? Forever?

    Obviously there has to be a 'reasonable' time limit someplace in this logic because if not then it's just complaining to have something to complain about...

    Obvious 6 months isn't reasonable, but how many years are you talking about here?
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    • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
      Originally Posted by godoveryou View Post

      So here's the million dollar question - how long do you expect a seller to keep the materials up? Forever?

      Obvious 6 months isn't reasonable, but how many years are you talking about here?
      The answer is, as long as you are in business of selling online products, then yes forever.

      Isn't your website (the one that represents you and your company) going to be online forever?

      Is it not then right, for your customer (the one who PAID you money) to then have the right to access that product forever?

      It' simple. If you are the business of selling ONLINE products, then those products STAY online for those people who PAID you for it. (it's in your right to take it down, move it, etc...but you must TELL THEM).

      Seems like folks here are having a hard time with this 'forever' word. Why not? If you can't do that for your customers, get out of digital marketing and go into something else. (or, tell them what you're going to do with the product THEY purchased). Simple.

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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
        Originally Posted by Shamir Rele View Post

        The answer is, as long as you are in business of selling online products, then yes forever.

        Isn't your website (the one that represents you and your company) going to be online forever?

        Is it not then right, for your customer (the one who PAID you money) to then have the right to access that product forever?

        It' simple. If you are the business of selling ONLINE products, then those products STAY online for those people who PAID you for it. (it's in your right to take it down, move it, etc...but you must TELL THEM).

        Seems like folks here are having a hard time with this 'forever' word. Why not? If you can't do that for your customers, get out of digital marketing and go into something else. (or, tell them what you're going to do with the product THEY purchased). Simple.


        Geees, calm down already... Your fonts keep getting bigger and bigger (LMFAO) So, you expect a product creator to store your product for you forever free of charge until you feel like downloading it again and again and again... How many times do you need to download a product anyway?

        Yes you paid for the content of the product but you never paid for the storage of the product.

        Getting all bent out of shape because someone takes their product off the market and takes it offline after years is a little much.

        Tell me, what happens when you go to a download page that has a limited time to download the product? I know a few systems that work that way. Why not put some responsibility on the purchaser to download the product.

        Expecting a product creator to leave their products online forever in the off chance someone like you may want to download it again in 10 years is completely unreasonable, especially for a $5 to $20 dollar purchase.

        The only ones who aren't complaining are the ones who purchase a product, download it right away and actually use it instead of waiting years before cracking it open.
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        • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
          Yes you paid for the content of the product but you never paid for the storage of the product.

          Getting all bent out of shape because someone takes their product off the market and takes it offline is a little much.
          Ah. This is unreal. Of course everybody here who runs a WSO is sooo offended. I'll address your questions here Mike. Yes, the customer PAID for the content.

          Sometimes, this content is online portal (such as wordpres) and the best way to access it, view it, and learn from it is to login online and view the stuff. Many times the customer is not advised to 'download the product'. But they should be. We're talking about lots of video content in many cases.

          Tell me, what happens when you go to a download page that has a limited time to download the product? I know a few systems that work that way. Why not put some responsibility on the purchaser to download the product.
          If you read the previous posts I've repeatedly said "tell your customers" In this case, it's totally fine as it's explicitly stated. With limited download times, it's totally fine because it's already stated.

          AGAIN, many wordpress style portals do not say this. IN fact, they encourage the opposite. To login, check out the videos, look around, etc etc.

          Expecting a product creator to leave their products online forever in the off chance someone like you may want to download it again in 10 years is completely unreasonable, especially for a $5 to $20 dollar purchase.
          As usual, not thinking about your customer. Seems perfectly fine taking their money though, doesn't it? Again, TELL them what you're going to do with their product. Or tell them to download it. If its a bunch of video's, then a download link would help.

          The only ones who aren't complaining are the ones who purchase a product, download it right away and actually use it instead of waiting years before cracking it open.
          Not true. I do pretty well here. I've bought WSO's. I've used them. I want to refer back to some of them... those are gone.
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          • Profile picture of the author CyberAlien
            Originally Posted by Shamir Rele View Post

            If you read the previous posts I've repeatedly said "tell your customers" In this case, it's totally fine as it's explicitly stated. With limited download times, it's totally fine because it's already stated.
            If you buy a t-shirt from the store, does the owner need to tell you to take it home with you too? That must get pretty annoying for the store owners in your local area.

            Just imagine this... You want into a store. You see a t-shirt you want. You pay for it. You leave it on the counter and decide to not take it with you. The store owner doesn't know you left it behind because they don't have signs reminding customers to take their products with them because normal ones do. You come back 5 years later looking for the t-shirt and it's been thrown away.

            That's exactly what you're asking product owners to do - store it for you, forever.

            By the way, I don't have any WSOs here, so the fact you're singling out those sellers makes no difference to me. I'm just telling you how it is. Let me ask you this, exactly how much should the seller have to tell you?

            Should they also tell you keep your receipt? Or save your login information? Or upload a backup to an external server? How much common sense advice is "enough" for you to be happy with?
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        • Profile picture of the author ajbarnes777
          Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post


          Yes you paid for the content of the product but you never paid for the storage of the product.
          This "debate" should have ended right there.
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Stuff happens. I let go of one of the domains where I kept certain downloads. With one WSO in particular something that was relevant at one point actually became a liability so I took down the download. There are other perfectly legitimate reasons for moving on.

    I think you download your stuff and then back it up in several places. Then you've got it. Any seller has the right to remove old material, especially if it becomes dated or otherwise irrelevant.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    Arrggg... I can understand a membership site, even if it's basically dead, to be kept up. Perhaps for years.

    Downloadable products that are supposed to be downloaded after purchase should be kept up for a reasonable amount of time after the last sale. The question becomes, what is reasonable?

    If a person orders a product, never downloads it, or has a disaster like a hard drive crash and wants it again, I can see that they should be able to get it. If it's years and years however I don't think it's reasonable to expect the seller to keep it there. They should be able to open a support ticket and get it sent to them.

    This reminds me that I need to work on a policy that tells buyers that the download will expire at x number of months, years, etc. I would still give a legit buyer the product via help desk ticket, but it could avoid future hassle.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    Tell me, what happens when you go to a download page that has a limited time to download the product?
    That's the first thing that came to my mind.

    The average expiring link is good for seven days. I regularly buy from a site that limits downloads to three in a year.

    Odds are good that someone is paying every time you download. S3 is not free.

    I instantly download everything to a 50 gig external HD. They are really inexpensive. (;
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  • This is why I will never pay for access to "streaming only" video products or any other non downloadable training modules that you can only view by logging in. Especial those memberships asking for a large upfront fee in exchange for so called "lifetime access" to a membership where videos will be made available to view, but not allowed to download. I know some marketers choose to offer this type of thing because they are afraid that their material will be shared etc etc. But hey, that means you're missing out on my cash.
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  • Profile picture of the author J. Barry Mandel
    I've found that 95% of the time if a WSO is listed with JVzoo based on my experience that if I never downloaded the product initially it will remain there to be accessed for eben up until months afterwards.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
      If you buy a t-shirt from the store, does the owner need to tell you to take it home with you too? That must get pretty annoying for the store owners in your local area.

      Just imagine this... You want into a store. You see a t-shirt you want. You pay for it. You leave it on the counter and decide to not take it with you. The store owner doesn't know you left it behind because they don't have signs reminding customers to take their products with them because normal ones do. You come back 5 years later looking for the t-shirt and it's been thrown away.
      What a ridiculous comparison. Firstly because it is understood that when you walk into a store, and you pay for an item, they usually bag it up, and you walk away with it. This is what we call 'standard procedure'. It's been like this for decades.

      Secondly (and more importantly) digital products are there so you can LEARN from them. You don't put it on, like a shirt. You learn from them, apply the stuff and often you would refer back to it.

      That's exactly what you're asking product owners to do - store it for you, forever.
      *Sigh*. I see you're having an issue with the word 'forever'. Read my above post. If you can't list a product online forever, tell your customers. (by the way, I wonder if you would list a product on say, Clickbank... and then desert your download, or page where your customers stream your product. Somehow I doubt it.)

      I'm just telling you how it is. Let me ask you this, exactly how much should the seller have to tell you?
      I thought that was obvious. He should tell you where the hell all those video's are after 2 years.

      Sellers: Quit telling yourself it's OK to ditch your product page without telling your customers because 'its been 2 years' or because 'my domain name expired'.

      For those who understand me here, thank you.
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      • Profile picture of the author CyberAlien
        Originally Posted by Shamir Rele View Post

        What a ridiculous comparison. Firstly because it is understood that when you walk into a store, and you pay for an item, they usually bag it up, and you walk away with it. This is what we call 'standard procedure'. It's been like this for decades.

        Secondly (and more importantly) digital products are there so you can LEARN from them. You don't put it on, like a shirt. You learn from them, apply the stuff and often you would refer back to it.
        Since when has downloading a digital product not been considered 'standard procedure'? If I pay for an eBook, video, template, etc. I download it right then.

        What exactly do you do with a t-shirt when you're done with it? You put it somewhere safe so that you can use it later. Should the store owner replace your t-shirt if you lose it over the years?
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        • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
          Originally Posted by Escalate Internet View Post

          Since when has downloading a digital product not been considered 'standard procedure'? If I pay for an eBook, video, template, etc. I download it right then.
          Ah, I see where the disconnect is here. Let me clarify what I mean here. There are certain WSO's where the author gives you a login. This login goes to an online portal where you (the customer) view a bunch of modules. Typically, these modules will each have a few videos in it.

          The whole thing may consist of 20 videos, a few accompanying pdf's and possibly a resource section. There can be a lot to consume. Usually, there is no encouragement to download. To be honest, because of the nice layout, it's much more easier (and convenient) to simply login and view the videos, as and when.

          As you can imagine, this is also a nice way to refer back to the videos. You could login say, a year from now and still see those videos. In fact, some WSO's are very good at keep their products online. Unfortunately, some are not. Hence I started this thread.

          This segues into your next point...

          What exactly do you do with a t-shirt when you're done with it? You put it somewhere safe so that you can use it later. Should the store owner replace your t-shirt if you lose it over the years?
          I hope you can see now that this analogy doesn't pertain. Because when you buy a t-shirt, it's yours. It's in your home. You've traded cash for a t-shirt. A physical item. When you trade your cash for videos in an online portal (a very popular form of WSO), then that's exactly what you've paid for.

          Somebody in this thread (I forgot the name) said something like "isn't it common sense to download". Well, it would be common sense if it was just an ebook or a site template. When it's 20 videos (often with no download link) a bunch of pdf's and other things, it's not common sense. It then becomes down to the seller to think "this product may not be online in a couple of years from now. Let me tell my customers to download it and give them an easy way to do it".
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        • Profile picture of the author Jassen
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          • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
            Originally Posted by Jassen View Post

            Bingo! I think that the reasonable person standard from the legal world applies here, and that said reasonable person would follow "standard procedure" and download their purchase right away.

            I stand by my earlier statement that a year or two is more than adequate to keep a site up, and that there is absolutely no reasonable expectation to keep it up indefinitely.
            As I said, there are certain WSO's where the author gives you a login. This login goes to an online portal where you (the customer) view a bunch of modules. Typically, these modules will each have a few videos in it.

            The whole thing may consist of 20 videos, a few accompanying pdf's and possibly a resource section. There can be a lot to consume. Usually, there is no encouragement/instruction to download. No link either. To be honest, because of the nice layout, it's much more easier (and convenient) to simply login and view the videos, as and when.

            As you can imagine, this is also a nice way to refer back to the videos. You could login say, a year from now and still see those videos. In fact, some WSO's are very good at keep these types of WSO's online. Unfortunately, some are not. Hence I started this thread.
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            • Profile picture of the author cindyl
              This happened to me ,when I logged on to watch the video training it was all gone. It was about setting up blogger blogs. The website is still there with the same seller only selling a different course not on the same subject. That really bothered me because I thought it was really good training.
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              • Originally Posted by timpears View Post

                I hate it when I can't download the videos to a product I bought, for this very reason, and I will probably not be able to find the damn URL months later if I need to refer back.
                Yup! I download everything I can as well.

                Originally Posted by Escalate Internet View Post

                Since when has downloading a digital product not been considered 'standard procedure'? If I pay for an eBook, video, template, etc. I download it right then.
                Yes but not all sites are set up to download files. I have a FF add-on that downloads most videos but some I have trouble doing. Also things get accidentally deleted (yeah I know always back up but not everyone does).

                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                Yes, it is unreasonable. It's like getting angry at a retail store that stops selling a product a year after you purchase it.
                I've had that when I worked at Penney's. I worked in the Window Coverings & Home department. We'd have people who would come in wanting to purchase additional coverings months even years later & we not have the product anymore.

                Originally Posted by rr1958 View Post

                I don't know, perhaps its me. When I buy a WAO, I'm quick to download it and get right into the product.Am I missing something?
                No but not everyone does *guilty right here* I do download but don't always get to it right away.

                Originally Posted by brutecky View Post

                You know if I order something online and have it sent to a local retail store they generally store it for me for 14 days before they ship it back to the warehouse.
                Yes and you'd be surprised how many folks get *upset* when we've sent their items back. Ours was 2 weeks, but often would hold for 30 days. One time someone came in 6 MONTHS later, that's right 6 MONTHS & had a hissy fit because they ordered some T-Shirt on clearance & never came to pick it up. It never showed as a pick up or returned/credit but it couldn't be found. So they did a credit on it. And a few days later, we ended up finding the shirt. Someone had put it in one of the hold closets that was never cleared out.

                Originally Posted by brutecky View Post

                This actually leads to another point. If your buying stuff and not using it for months and months on end then your probably spending to much time buying stuff you dont really need.
                Yes...many things I never touched & others decided I wasn't ready for. But yes after adding up my purchases I'm beyond embarrassed as to how much I've spent. But that's stopping!
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                • Profile picture of the author beasty513
                  I know that product owners may change the hosting or let the domain expire.

                  Things like this happen and I for one have

                  come to the conclusion that trying to buy a information product that has

                  launched years ago shouldn't be a hassle.


                  You should contact the owner and deal with them directly.
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    I've had people years later want to redownload because they had hard drive crashes and I help them if they can provide proof or if I can quickly look it up but it's not really my responsibility to provide them backups.

    A lot of major companies charge for extended download periods now. After "X" time you can't download it w/out buying it again. Pretty smart if you ask me.

    Of course if the content is online, that's a little different. Members/buyers should have plenty of notice and a method to download it before it's closed.

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  • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
    The answer is, as long as you are in business of selling online products, then yes forever.
    You're either absolutely insane or...

    .. and what I believe to be more true, using this thread to prove yourself as one of the best forum trolls in the history of WF.

    You seriously want someone's estate to secure and host a resource for your personal access after they are dead? You really know how crazy and pathetic that makes you sound, right?

    Isn't your website (the one that represents you and your company) going to be online forever?
    No, as a matter of fact it's not. LOL. Why would it be around any longer than when what purpose it served is over...

    By your deluded logic, there should never be an expired domain.
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    I hate it when I can't download th videos to a product I bought, for this very reason, and I will probably not be able to find the damn URL months later if I need to refer back.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
      You're either absolutely insane or...

      .. and what I believe to be more true, using this thread to prove yourself as one of the best forum trolls in the history of WF.

      You seriously want someone's estate to secure and host a resource for your personal access after they are dead? You really know how crazy and pathetic that makes you sound, right?
      Trolls huh? Empty Jab. Been on the WF long before you. Hopefully WSO sellers can take this info and do some good with it. My friends included.

      And to your 'crazy and pathetic' comments, clearly you miss the point entirely. You've probably also missed the posts I've made above. I'll say it again: tell your cusomers if you're going to move. Or tell them to download all the video's. The key thing is inform them. That doesn't sound 'crazy' or 'pathetic'. It sounds logical.

      No, as a matter of fact it's not. LOL. Why would it be around any longer than when what purpose it served is over...
      .

      What on gods name are you talking about? Seriously. Have you read anything on this thread? Or were you cherry picking? Christ.

      So by your awesome logic, one should host a WSO to serve it's purpose? Which is what? Six months to read and then the seller can discard it? If anything, this is making you look terrible. As I said: TELL your customers your product has a shelf life, if need be. It's not rocket science. Clearly there are people who feel the same. (even here on this thread).

      By your deluded logic, there should never be an expired domain
      This is why I can't debate here. *shakes head*. The whole point is RENEW your expired domain name, especially if your product is attached to it.
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    • Profile picture of the author RMTxjpbof
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  • Profile picture of the author absolutelee
    Originally Posted by Shamir Rele View Post

    Sellers, please keep your products accessible to those people who have paid for it.
    Great idea...sometimes less easy than you might think. Especially when there are partners involved who own part of the sites. But in general, you're right on this.
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  • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
    You've been here longer, with no thanked posts... Not even this one.

    Is it taking you 10 years to get the point, which would be that you have nothing of value to contribute.

    Go cry in a corner because someone moved on and you can't.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
      Originally Posted by godoveryou View Post

      You've been here longer, with no thanked posts... Not even this one.

      Is it taking you 10 years to get the point, which would be that you have nothing of value to contribute.

      Go cry in a corner because someone moved on and you can't.
      Getting personal are we? You don't even know me or what I've contributed. It's unfortunate that you would stoop so low dude. Nobody is crying here. I've been busy working and creating a successful business. Away from forums like this one. I don't need 'thanked posts' to validate myself in the WF. Seriously bro.

      My point here was to open a debate to possibly affect some change. Hopefully, some sellers have noticed. I know some buyers certainly have.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
        Originally Posted by Shamir Rele View Post

        My point here was to open a debate to possibly affect some change. Hopefully, some sellers have noticed. I know some buyers certainly have.
        What, so you're eluding to the fact some of us sellers who disagree with you don't take care of our customers? That's a BIG mistake on your part...

        Also, if you're so busy creating your business away from this forum like you mentioned why on earth are you here now stirring shit up? If you simply wanted a debate then you wouldn't be in here yelling and stomping your feet until everyone agrees with you.

        A debate takes into account both sides of the story from everyone's perspective. in a debate no one is right or wrong... it's a debate... it's about perspective from all sides.

        BUT NO... you gotta keep pushing. And now to elude to the fact that "buyers have noticed" tells me you should just stroll along and continue creating your business AWAY from this forum.
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        • Profile picture of the author daftdog
          Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

          What, so you're eluding to the fact some of us sellers who disagree with you don't take care of our customers? That's a BIG mistake on your part...

          Also, if you're so busy creating your business away from this forum like you mentioned why on earth are you here now stirring shit up? If you simply wanted a debate then you wouldn't be in here yelling and stomping your feet until everyone agrees with you.

          A debate takes into account both sides of the story from everyone's perspective. in a debate no one is right or wrong... it's a debate... it's about perspective from all sides.

          BUT NO... you gotta keep pushing. And now to elude to the fact that "buyers have noticed" tells me you should just stroll along and continue creating your business AWAY from this forum.
          Best and most sensible post on this thread!
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  • Profile picture of the author Ghoster
    This is a great point.

    To anyone with low hard drive space, you can often get a good amount of free storage space from cloud storage services. Dropbox will give you 2G just for using the service.
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  • Profile picture of the author dougb
    This has happened to me a lot as well. I don't have issue with the owner taking the product down, but give your buyers adequate notice to download the product before you just take it down
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  • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
    Mike, some sellers do not care. I'm not saying you are one of them.

    I'm not yelling (well, besides that one post).

    And buyers have noticed yes. Just stating the obvious man. I'm a buyer. I'm also a seller. I'm also just responding to people here in this thread. I'm not saying anymore than I need to.

    On that note Mike, you don't need to contribute anymore if this is pissing you off. You can step out. Anybody can.

    You're also not calling anybody else out, which shows me a bias on you're part. Again, calling it like I see it. You can say the same thing to them... ask them to chill.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
      Originally Posted by Shamir Rele View Post

      Mike, some sellers do not care. I'm not saying you are one of them.

      I'm not yelling (well, besides that one post).

      And buyers have noticed yes. Just stating the obvious man. I'm a buyer. I'm also a seller. I'm also just responding to people here in this thread. I'm not saying anymore than I need to.

      On that note Mike, you don't need to contribute anymore if this is pissing you off. You can step out. Anybody can.

      You're also not calling anybody else out, which shows me a bias on you're part. Again, calling it like I see it. You can say the same thing to them... ask them to chill.

      I'm addressing you because you are the OP are you not? Forget it, I'm not wasting any more time on a "right fighter" who just wants to stir shit up without looking at both sides here... If it will make you feel better you win, you are the winner of the troll award (and numerous others) for today. Congrats...
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  • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
    I'm able to make a call because I am on both sides Mike. Anyways, thanks for the award. The winner of the most sarcastic has to be you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Shamir Rele View Post

      I'm able to make a call because I am on both sides Mike. Anyways, thanks for the award. The winner of the most sarcastic has to be you.
      We are all consumers. Yes, even people who sell stuff also purchase stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dee Syed
    Spot on, Shamir. I've had similar experiences and it's very disappointing.
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  • Profile picture of the author NK
    I don't really agree that sellers have the responsibility to keep the product up indefinitely. Not every product out there has that long of a shelf life. Certain products goes out of date and becomes useless months, weeks or even days later.

    If your product no longer holds accurate information after 2-3 years, is there really a point to keep it up there? You could argue that the seller can just include a note of some sort on the download page notifying buyers about it, but as Mike said, it costs the seller money to keep it running.

    But at the end of the day, it really does depends on the type of product you're selling. As a buyer I would try to always download everything, or at least the most important parts of what I bought simply because it may no longer be there in the future. Even if the seller kept paying for the storage, the files could still end up corrupted and the sellers themselves may no longer have the original files or could no longer be contacted for various possible reasons.

    There are just too many factors involved here that to expect something to still be around online after 5 years (especially when we're talking about downloadables like ebooks) is really you taking risks.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
      When a customer has unsubscribed from the update list or changed emails and no longer monitors the subscribed one, he or she is indicating that they no longer want to be notified about the product.

      That's a choice on their part and NOT the responsibility of the seller, simply because it's the agreed upon method of communication.
      Hey Mike. Sure, I can agree here. If this is the case thou, there needs to be a better system in place where one list is strictly about products 'updates', and not about product 'upgrades'. With (especially) internet marketers, the lines are blurry here.

      Yeah, it is their job - how about a bit of personal responsibility on the buyer's part? When you buy something, especially online, it's not unreasonable for the seller to expect you to make a diligent effort to download the product promptly.

      If you're not organizing your products/downloads and making regular backups, that's your choice and not the responsibility of the seller to store it for you into perpetuity.
      I've updated/edited my OP to reflect what type of WSO I'm talking about here. Ebooks and website templates are often explicitly stated "download here". But these online portals where you login and view tons of video content, there often is no mention to download anything. Then one day, it's all gone, but the WSO is still relevant today. >>> http://www.warriorforum.com/main-internet-marketing-discussion-forum/928450-warrior-special-offers-cautionary-tale-buyers-sellers.html#post9131638


      Actually no - whether the product is downloadable or the product can only be accessed online, the seller's responsibility should be outlined in the TOS and most likely gives them the out to stop providing it at some point.

      As a buyer, it's up to you to read the legal docs and decide for yourself whether or not you agree with them. If they're unclear as to the length of time that the product will be available online, then again, you need to communicate with the seller BEFORE you make your purchase.

      A buyer's relationship with a seller isn't the one-way street you seem to make it out to be.
      Sure. A buyer does have a responsibility. Honestly tho, I've never seen a TOS that states what you're saying Mike. If it does, it would be helpful. It would be best if they just say it outright. Esp with the type of WSO I'm talking about.
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  • Profile picture of the author Clixess
    I think it's the buyers' responsibility to download and store the product they have bought. Digital or not, product is a product. You buy it and you take it away with you. Then, it's your responsibility. Of course, if the product gets taken down the next day, than this will be wrong, but few years to forever, this is just too much that the buyer can want, unless it is mentioned that they get free lifetime storage of the file. I think there should be a TOS somewhere on the download page that clarifies this kind of things.
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  • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
    Yep, that's absolutely an insurmountable problem with no known resolution.

    This all seems much more reasonable now that you put it in that light. I suppose it really is the WSO seller's responsibility to keep portals and resources up forever.

    It's not often that I have my mind changed but you've done it and I'm certainly impressed. I say we go to every WSO and post about this to warn future potential buyers and serve notice to anyone with the nerve to list a WSO who may have previously thought 2-5 years was 'enough.'

    Those scumbags....
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  • Profile picture of the author kencalhn
    Although I don't sell wsos, I sell lots of downloadable video content -- I always clearly tell people to download within 30 days, and that links will be removed after that time. I use password IP tracking security to limit logins, to prevent password sharing. Like buying a downloadable video or image from a microstock site like istock, you can download it once or twice, and then you're done.

    Hint: I also tell my customers to be sure to backup their videos to a 2nd hard drive (so that if their initial hard drive crashes, they have a backup). With dozens of downloadable courses, and thousands of customers, I'm not going to be in the business of maintaining administrative continued download access per user for years, for so much content. Nobody's complained, as it's a sensible approach.

    Buy it. download it. make a safe backup. we're done.

    think of the administrative pain in the rear it would be if some person said "help I bought a course from you 4 years ago and my hard drive crashed and can you reupload it to your server and give me a new login and password", Multiplied by several thousand customers? no thanks.

    by telling people you won't reupload courses/videos later (I do), and tell them to make backups (I do), you help control for the lazy people who don't want to work and do their fair share. It's like selling books, and if the customer loses the book, or their dog eats it, amazon/barnes and noble won't just give them a free replacement book, years later. or lost/scratched dvd/cd/whatever.

    as my business continues to grow, putting reasonable rules/guidelines/fences in place helps customers be more responsible. if it ever gets to be a problem (it hasn't so far, with few exceptions), I may offer some "reupload/re-enable download access" service at some high price to cover my wasted time, though that's highly unlikely. eg "lost a webinar video download from 2009, sparky? ok there's a $200 admin fee to reupload/re-enable download links per video".

    Thankfully most of my customers aren't morons so I don't need to worry about it. I'm just fair and firm in setting rules of conduct/TOS when buying from me that are specific, and followed. When your info business grows (I'm up 12%+ growth year over year), you have to not let customers be irresponsible children; instead have fair/firm guidelines. By having firm guidelines, you also scare away moron customers, which is especially helpful. I don't want business from password-sharers, lazy people, those who don't follow directions etc
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  • Profile picture of the author rr1958
    I don't know, perhaps its me. When I buy a WAO, I'm quick to download it and get right into the product.Am I missing something?
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    • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
      Originally Posted by rr1958 View Post

      I don't know, perhaps its me. When I buy a WAO, I'm quick to download it and get right into the product.Am I missing something?
      Sorry I didn't respond earlier. You are not wrong, but as I mentioned, it's easy to download a pdf or site template. But when the WSO is an online portal (through a user name and password), full of several modules, which contain several videos, mind maps and audio, it becomes a little less black and white as to if you should download it all.

      Besides the fact that downloading in those instances isn't exactly encouraged. In fact. it looks beautifully organized in the portal and my guess is that it's exactly the way the WSO author intended - to get the customers to consume the material in that order so they are more likely to take action.
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  • Profile picture of the author brutecky
    And how long do you think that sellers should keep the access up?
    3 months, for sure, 6 months yes, after a year though your just procrastinating. And you know what they say about procrastination dont you?

    If you have not downloaded your puchase after a year or more and the seller has not sold that product for a year or more do you really expect him to keep the access portal up still. Should he renew the domain and keep paying hosting because after a year a buyer still has not taken 5 minutes to make a download? Come on get real.

    You know if I order something online and have it sent to a local retail store they generally store it for me for 14 days before they ship it back to the warehouse. If a seller gives you a year to download your purchase and you still have not then its your fault not theres. Just because you bought there product does not mean they are your digital storehouse. Thats what your hard drive is for. Download your purchase already.

    This actually leads to another point. If your buying stuff and not using it for months and months on end then your probably spending to much time buying stuff you dont really need.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shamir Rele
      Originally Posted by brutecky View Post

      And how long do you think that sellers should keep the access up?
      3 months, for sure, 6 months yes, after a year though your just procrastinating. And you know what they say about procrastination dont you?

      If you have not downloaded your puchase after a year or more and the seller has not sold that product for a year or more do you really expect him to keep the access portal up still. Should he renew the domain and keep paying hosting because after a year a buyer still has not taken 5 minutes to make a download? Come on get real.

      You know if I order something online and have it sent to a local retail store they generally store it for me for 14 days before they ship it back to the warehouse. If a seller gives you a year to download your purchase and you still have not then its your fault not theres. Just because you bought there product does not mean they are your digital storehouse. Thats what your hard drive is for. Download your purchase already.

      This actually leads to another point. If your buying stuff and not using it for months and months on end then your probably spending to much time buying stuff you dont really need.
      Hey brutecky, if the seller has told his customers to download all the videos, audios and pdfs within the portal, then sure I agree, it would be silly for the customers to expect it to be there after a couple of years.

      However, most sellers to do not tell there customers (when its a bunch of videos, that is) to download all the stuff. When it comes to a pdf, it's common practice.

      With these slick online portals with a bunch of content, it's not clear to download everything in there. Remember, we're talking sometimes gigabytes of video which is not even really explicitly there for 'downloading'.

      To your last point, I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. I for one do very well online. But I sometimes go back to certain videos (in online portals WSO's) which I've referenced in my swipe file, which I'd like to access after a couple of year. In fact, I have done this many times. If you're thinking, "2 years, are you nuts?", I'll say there are WSO's online portals which are actually up their for longer. There are sellers (couple which I know personally) who pride themselves on giving their customers access to their online portals for a LONG time, or unless they tell their list they have moved (or are ceasing to exist). If they can do it, others can too.
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  • Profile picture of the author tj
    There is always the possibility - if you want to keep the videos - to record them via a screen recording program like snagit.

    Timo
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  • Profile picture of the author brutecky
    Well to be fair for training / videos I can understand. But I was speaking in the context of the products I sell, which is software. (and yes I have had buyers contact me over a year ofter their purchase wondering why there download link is broken,.. good thing for them I archive everything I write) With software my though process which I feel is reasonable is that a year to press the download button is plenty.
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  • Profile picture of the author LearningChinese
    That is a great piece of advice. I used to be quite this freeware software geek and used to love to try out various programs. I always downloaded them and kept them. people sometimes ask me why. It's funny that I'm still using freeware that has since been removed from the Internet or has been changed into a lockdown paid version.

    You know swipe the input method for android phones? That used to be freeware piece of software from the IBM research lab for Tablet PC computers (I mean the original ones with the stylus running Windows Tablet PC) back in 2004. I still have it. Great piece of software and not available for the Tablet PC anymore. Tons of examples like that.

    Download everything hard drive space is cheap!
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  • Profile picture of the author WFDUDE
    I think OP has turned blue in the face with his explanation here and needs no more clarifying. People here are too quick to jump on him. He has a very valid point. Everyone keeps saying, download as soon as you pay for it. okay, let me look for the downl........oh, there isn't one. It's a view portal only without the option of downloading. His point was, since it's a view port only, give your customers the chance to download it before you take it down or leave it up. There are many cheap and free ways the seller can do this. The comparison to brick and mortar is completely off the mark and irrelevant.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
      Originally Posted by WFDUDE View Post

      I think OP has turned blue in the face with his explanation here and needs no more clarifying. People here are too quick to jump on him. He has a very valid point. Everyone keeps saying, download as soon as you pay for it. okay, let me look for the downl........oh, there isn't one. It's a view portal only without the option of downloading. His point was, since it's a view port only, give your customers the chance to download it before you take it down or leave it up. There are many cheap and free ways the seller can do this. The comparison to brick and mortar is completely off the mark and irrelevant.

      There are also free ways a buyer can download videos without a download link... HELLO. So they can download everything without a problem if that be the case of not having a link that says "Download here, yes right here on this very link... click it now before it turns purple"

      People have to be more resourceful and not expect to be coddled like a child. Heck, if you don't know how to download a video without having a link then has it ever occured to you to go to YouTube and look for how to do it? Geeees....
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