Concerned about WF banners...

by WillR
25 replies
I've been noticing lately a lot of Warrior Forum banners at the top selling people on business opportunities and guaranteeing people their first sale (customer) within x amount of days.

If I'm not mistaken this then puts them under the rule of business opportunity.

A business opportunity is one where:

1. A seller solicits someone to enter into a new business.
2. A prospect makes a required payment.
99% of offers on this forum meet the first two conditions but not the third one which is:

3. The seller represents that they, or someone they
recommend, will do any of the following:

A. Provide locations for the use or operation of devices
paid for by the buyer.

B. Provide existing or potential outlets, accounts, or
customers for the buyer's goods or services. Here the FTC rule
specifically refers to Internet outlets, accounts, and customers.
The amount of disclosures and additional things that must be adhered to for a biz opp are much more complicated than regular offers. For this reason I would have thought this forum would want to distance themselves from these types of offers that are guaranteeing people their first customer, etc. It will only lead to trouble down the line.

What are your thoughts on these types of offers?
#banners #concerned
  • Profile picture of the author drewfioravanti
    New owners.

    Anyway, I saw that ad a few times. I immediately thought to myself "how can they guarantee a customer in X amount of days?". Then, I went on to answer myself "They probably buy one product to meet the claim, and that product is at a lower price than the product offered."

    I clicked it out of curiosity, to try to figure out the scheme. But it only took me to a crappy squeeze page.
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  • Profile picture of the author nicholasb
    well it's illegal to guarantee a certain amount of income in a certain amount of time, so whoever is running the banner better hope the FTC doesn't find out because if they do they will owe a hefty fee to the FTC
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      Originally Posted by nicholasb View Post

      well it's illegal to guarantee a certain amount of income in a certain amount of time, so whoever is running the banner better hope the FTC doesn't find out because if they do they will owe a hefty fee to the FTC
      This is no longer a US-owned forum.


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      • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
        Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

        This is no longer a US-owned forum.
        That doesn't matter.
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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
          Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

          That doesn't matter.
          It does when discussing the FTC. Or did you mean in the great scheme of things?


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          • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
            Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

            It does when discussing the FTC. Or did you mean in the great scheme of things?
            Both.

            It's hosted in the USA. It has 'Mericans for members.

            If it was so easy to side step FCC, FTC, etc. then all companies would go else where.

            -g
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            • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
              Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

              It's hosted in the USA. It has 'Mericans for members.

              If it was so easy to side step FCC, FTC, etc. then all companies would go else where.
              Fair enough. I did hear of the FTC trying to sue an Australian company a few years ago, but I don't know if anything came of that.

              I'm sure it's academic anyway. Even without the increasing incidence of cross-border co-operation, the new owners are unlikely to want to be seen promoting anything that contravenes FTC guidelines.


              Frank
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    • Profile picture of the author igrowyourbiz
      Originally Posted by nicholasb View Post

      well it's illegal to guarantee a certain amount of income in a certain amount of time, so whoever is running the banner better hope the FTC doesn't find out because if they do they will owe a hefty fee to the FTC
      it is not illegal to give an earnings guarantee. It is only illegal not to be able to substantiate it.

      In every Coaching Program I do (and have done and will do) I guarantee an earnings amount within a time period (usually 365 days) at which point I will pay them their coaching dollars back should they not make it to the specified level after following my systems.

      IF IT is a business opportunity/franchise then the FTC says:

      "In addition, companies that make earnings representations must give consumers the written basis for their claims, including the number and percentage of owners who have done at least as well as claimed."

      The key is this has to be a true guarantee. There is no law that says you can not guarantee someone will make money. You do have to however honor a refund to those that do not meet the claim.

      if you disclose all details ahead of time, provide it in a contract IN WRITING and honor any refunds...there is no problem.

      Business with integrity. I know it is rare to see these days, but for us old timers its the only way to go.
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  • Profile picture of the author Content Commando


    I think this is the one you're referring to/
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    HERE
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    Will whats going on my man?

    Ever since the new owners took over the forum you have been on a crusade to bring attention to all that's [seemingly] wrong here.

    First it was the design, then it was an affiliate in the classified section, then it was about not spending any more money in the WSO forum when they lowered the price... and so on.

    Now I like you man, I think you're a brilliant marketer but gees all this whining is a little over the top don't you think? If you're that upset with the place then maybe take a break or something.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

      Will whats going on my man?

      Ever since the new owners took over the forum you have been on a crusade to bring attention to all that's [seemingly] wrong here.

      First it was the design, then it was an affiliate in the classified section, then it was about not spending any more money in the WSO forum when they lowered the price... and so on.

      Now I like you man, I think you're a brilliant marketer but gees all this whining is a little over the top don't you think? If you're that upset with the place then maybe take a break or something.
      Mike,

      I've made about 3 posts regarding the forum since it has been taken over. First they asked about changing the design. I gave my opinion (as did everyone else) saying it ain't busted, doesn't need to be fixed. The new design went ahead anyway. Has it really made a huge difference to the forum? Not that I can see so I still stand by that.

      Next I brought attention to the fact that by lowering the WSO fee they have made it less appealing for me to advertise there since your drop off the first few pages in a matter of hours. Being that I have spent over $40,000 in WSO bump fees the last couple of years, I just assumed they may want to know how I felt about the change? Better to keep that to myself is it?

      Sorry, but I will always call a spade a spade. Nothing to be gained by sugar contacting and living in a fairy land. So I will continue to point out anything I think could be improved. Running banner offers guaranteeing customers is just asking for trouble and it seems the new owners are not aware of this, thus why I am pointing it out.

      I've invested a lot of time into this forum the last few years and want to see it still here in a few years time.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        Mike,

        I've made about 3 posts regarding the forum since it has been taken over. First they asked about changing the design. I gave my opinion (as did everyone else) saying it ain't busted, doesn't need to be fixed. The new design went ahead anyway. Has it really made a huge difference to the forum? Not that I can see so I still stand by that.

        Next I brought attention to the fact that by lowering the WSO fee they have made it less appealing for me to advertise there since your drop off the first few pages in a matter of hours. Being that I have spent over $40,000 in WSO bump fees the last couple of years, I just assumed they may want to know how I felt about the change? Better to keep that to myself is it?

        Sorry, but I will always call a spade a spade. Nothing to be gained by sugar contacting and living in a fairy land. So I will continue to point out anything I think could be improved. Running banner offers guaranteeing customers is just asking for trouble and it seems the new owners are not aware of this, thus why I am pointing it out.

        I've invested a lot of time into this forum the last few years and want to see it still here in a few years time.

        That's all fine and good and I hear where you're coming from but 2 of those issues could have easily been handled in a PM to Allister. We also have to remember that everyone here in the forum are adults and as adults can make their own buying decisions.

        Plus the thing they are guaranteeing in the banner ad is their 1st sale in 14 days. That certainly seems plausible even for a newbie. But the fact of the matter is why you think you have to police the forum. Yes, we moderate the forum by the little red Triangle to the left but you seem to have the desire to do it publicly when it really only needs to be handled via a PM.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
    Originally Posted by WillR View Post

    I've been noticing lately a lot of Warrior Forum banners at the top selling people on business opportunities and guaranteeing people their first sale (customer) within x amount of days.

    If I'm not mistaken this then puts them under the rule of business opportunity.

    A business opportunity is one where:



    99% of offers on this forum meet the first two conditions but not the third one which is:



    The amount of disclosures and additional things that must be adhered to for a biz opp are much more complicated than regular offers. For this reason I would have thought this forum would want to distance themselves from these types of offers that are guaranteeing people their first customer, etc. It will only lead to trouble down the line.

    What are your thoughts on these types of offers?
    1.) People pay to advertise on WF. They pay $100 for banner ads. It has nothing to do with WF anymore then when people pay to advertise on Google or Facebook. Even the WF classified ads or WSO's are paid advertising and have nothing to do with WF since it's a marketplace/platform. Similar if Craigslist would be liable for ads...

    2) In your sig: [VIDEO] $37,801.35 in the Last 40 Days? Click to Watch >>: 2014-06-02_0041 - MarkHess's library leads to a pre-sell for a biz-opp of Matt Llloyds program that's been reviewed on this forum: http://www.warriorforum.com/internet...xperience.html

    Hilarious. A person promoting biz-opp's, bitching about other people promoting biz-opp's.

    Classic.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
      We also have to remember that everyone here in the forum are adults and as adults can make their own buying decisions.
      1.) People pay to advertise on WF. They pay $100 for banner ads. It has nothing to do with WF anymore then when people pay to advertise on Google or Facebook. Even the WF classified ads or WSO's are paid advertising and have nothing to do with WF since it's a marketplace/platform. Similar if Craigslist would be liable for ads...
      I agree, everybody needs to use due diligence. I've seen all kinds of crap up in those banners, but never gave it any more thought then it deserves. Most of the time I don't even see those ads, my blinders kick in. I see it as an advertising spot, never thought of it as the WF promoting anything.

      A person promoting biz-opp's, bitching about other people promoting biz-opp's.
      Guess some people don't like competition
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      • Profile picture of the author salegurus
        Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

        Guess some people don't like competition
        Sorry but that ^^^ did make me chuckle...
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  • FTC doesn't concern most people on this planet, some are more free to advertise however they like. In America you can go to jail if the feds want you there since they have 1000 new "laws" every-year. It's like Keven Spacey said in that net-fix show as the President, figure out who they are and then find the law they broke. In any case many Warriors don't have to worry about this stuff like Americans do.
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    soon people... Relax...
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  • Profile picture of the author RichBeck
    Originally Posted by WillR View Post

    I've been noticing lately a lot of Warrior Forum banners at the top selling people on business opportunities and guaranteeing people their first sale (customer) within x amount of days.

    If I'm not mistaken this then puts them under the rule of business opportunity.

    A business opportunity is one where:



    99% of offers on this forum meet the first two conditions but not the third one which is:



    The amount of disclosures and additional things that must be adhered to for a biz opp are much more complicated than regular offers. For this reason I would have thought this forum would want to distance themselves from these types of offers that are guaranteeing people their first customer, etc. It will only lead to trouble down the line.

    What are your thoughts on these types of offers?
    WillR,

    I believe many, many, many things advertised here in several sections would be seen as "business opportunities." They mention how money they "made" without meeting the very strict FTC guidelines...

    Selling a Work-at-Home or Other Business Opportunity? Revised Rule May Apply to You | BCP Business Center

    All The Best,

    Rich Beck BCIP, MCSD, MCIS
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    For those who believe that a foreign company cannot be prosecuted by the US, for violations of US law, may have missed this story:

    File-sharing kingpin arrested in New Zealand at US request | The National Business Review
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    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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    • Profile picture of the author James Campbell
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      For those who believe that a foreign company cannot be prosecuted by the US, for violations of US law, may have missed this story:

      File-sharing kingpin arrested in New Zealand at US request | The National Business Review

      The final outcome of that story is very different than what is implied by that link.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by James Campbell View Post

        The final outcome of that story is very different than what is implied by that link.

        Yeah. He is out on bail in NZ, and he started up a new site like the one that the Feds shut down. But charges are still pending against him.
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        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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        • Profile picture of the author James Campbell
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          Yeah. He is out on bail in NZ, and he started up a new site like the one that the Feds shut down. But charges are still pending against him.
          That is also not quite the whole story. He has continually been winning his legal battles in NZ as the NZ govt violated multiple NZ laws by moving forward with the raid and confiscation of property while acting on the orders of the US govt.

          He has received much of his belongings back and is still dealing with the ramifications of the BS actions that the NZ officials unlawfully took. His new venture works quite well and functions in a very different way than the original site/project he had.

          It isn't quite over yet, but it isn't looking good for the entertainment corps...err....I mean the US govt. case against him where they are hoping (read: praying) that they will be able to extradite him.

          The whole thing was a cluster of idiocy from the beginning on the part of govt officials from both the US and NZ.
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  • Profile picture of the author admin
    Administrator
    Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We are going to clean up the rules around advertising.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
      Originally Posted by admin View Post

      Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We are going to clean up the rules around advertising.
      If you're doing that, make sure to remove biz opp links from all forum signatures as well because the rules for these types of offers should be applied to both paid and free forms of advertising.

      Just because one person complains about their competition that's no reason to start scrapping the opportunity people have to advertise these types of offers.

      That's one of the things that makes this forum great and one of the reasons people keep coming back. There's opportunity here to grow your business.

      It has nothing to do with "guaranteed sign-ups". If the particular biz opp's TOS or owners allow their members to do this, they are allowed to. If someone has a problem with people offering "guaranteed sign-up" they should take it up with the biz opp.

      Any time you promote a biz opp (with or without the guaranteed sign-ups) the FTC compliance rules must be followed because they apply to the opportunity as a whole.

      If the people promoting "guaranteed sign-ups" don't follow through, typically they are called out and the biz opp bans them.

      People are actively searching for these types of offers all the time on here. There's threads about them in the reviews section, classified section, etc..

      If you start removing the content people are searching for and restricting the opportunities people have on here to grow their business, what incentive do people have to continue coming to this site?
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      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        The WSO rules already include a notice about Biz Opp offers, with a link to this thread:

        http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...e-changer.html

        where you can get my compliance report.

        http://internetmarketinglawcenter.co...bizopprule.pdf

        For banner ads it would be simple enough to include a link or other legal information and disclosures.

        However, unlike a WSO a banner ad may link to a sales page offsite. For a WSO it is easy enough to report a concern to have an issue looked at. Not so for a third party site over which the forum has no power to modify or take down.

        Ultimately, the responsibility for legal compliance is on the advertiser. Forum moderators are not attorneys and given the nature of the offers it can often be very difficult to discern if something qualifies as a Biz Opp or not. The forum isn't even based in the US anymore. It is not realistic to expect an advertiser will turn over their product for a thorough legal review by the forum before it is approved. (The seller should have already done that on their own nickel.) Some video products, with dozens of videos running an hour each could not possibly be vetted.

        This assertion:

        99% of offers on this forum meet the first two conditions [A seller solicits someone to enter into a new business. ]
        Is plainly not true and reflects a misunderstanding of what a business opportunity is, versus selling a tool, or general business or marketing advice.

        .
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