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History Repeating Itself: Tienanmen Square once more?

by barbling
31 replies
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So who here thinks 1989 will repeat itself once more but this time, in Hong Kong?

Hong Kong protests: The umbrella revolution faces a time-honored tactic.
  • Profile picture of the author WalkingCarpet
    Banned
    These guys are asking for a slaughter.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Don't you LOVE it! People feel they have an idea for a UTOPIA, and FIGHT to get it. Once the leaders gain power, they realize that others can't be told the truth, so they try to cut off communication. Eventually, more and more people rebel, and the attacks get more public, frequent, and violent.

    The sad little secret is that they EXPECT this to happen, and areMORE than happy to oblige. After all, THEY aren't in danger.

    Some people NEVER find out that the whole thing was a ploy for a few to get power.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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    Originally Posted by barbling View Post

    So who here thinks 1989 will repeat itself once more but this time, in Hong Kong?
    I was thinking probably not, because the Chinese must sense that the world probably won't stand for that, again, and it would do them more harm than good?

    But I don't know, now - maybe that's an over-optimistic perspective, what with everyone's attention focused on the Middle East, and so on, at the moment? I hope not, anyway.

    Awaiting Derek's further input, here, since he lives there and knows the lie of the land better than any of us ...

    .
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    This can definitely end up very badly and I think this is the reason why there is so much interest from International media. But I don't think it will end up in a massacre or for that matter with the Chinese army on the streets. China risks severe international repercussions and sanctions should that happen. Also, it could spark off an exodus of skilled professionals, many of whom hold foreign passports.

    There is some movement today. It seems someone is paying triad members and thugs to try to break a protest at Mongkok. The government wants the protests to end by Monday so it is conceivable that we may see some use of force. The protests have been largely peaceful so far because mainly students are involved. But the fear is they will soon be joined by those who are much predisposed to violence.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      the world probably won't stand for that, again, and it would do them more harm than good?
      I don't know. The anti-protestors clearly are being backed. I'm not sure China cares what the world thinks - and not sure the rest of the world would do anything more than gasp in shock as it did after Tiananmen Square.
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      • Profile picture of the author HN
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        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I don't know. The anti-protestors clearly are being backed. I'm not sure China cares what the world thinks - and not sure the rest of the world would do anything more than gasp in shock as it did after Tiananmen Square.
        I was thinking the same. What would they do? Stop importing stuff from China?
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by HN View Post

          I was thinking the same. What would they do? Stop importing stuff from China?
          Some American products have historically, for the past 1-2 decades, just been tweaks on Chinese copies or versions of other products. And how much of the Apple IPAD, for example, is APPLE'S DESIGN? APPLE doesn't even, last I knew, use a standard CPU in their non laptop devices. It is a variant of an ARM design. ARM has become the LEAD designer of such chips. They are INTELS competitor in the low power world, and Intel only recently tried to compete. Ironically, it seems ARM DOESN'T fabricate, and most of their customers don't either. A THIRD party fabricates a customers mods of the ARM design into a new chip.

          All this means that switching to a new supplier, especially one in a different country, could be a REAL problem.

          Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by derekwong28 View Post

      This can definitely end up very badly and I think this is the reason why there is so much interest from International media. But I don't think it will end up in a massacre or for that matter with the Chinese army on the streets. China risks severe international repercussions and sanctions should that happen. Also, it could spark off an exodus of skilled professionals, many of whom hold foreign passports.

      There is some movement today. It seems someone is paying triad members and thugs to try to break a protest at Mongkok. The government wants the protests to end by Monday so it is conceivable that we may see some use of force. The protests have been largely peaceful so far because mainly students are involved. But the fear is they will soon be joined by those who are much predisposed to violence.
      Let's hope it doesn't turn violent.

      But I can't predict one way or the other.


      From what I've heard, people can do just about anything they want in China except challenge the rule of the communist party.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        Let's hope it doesn't turn violent.

        But I can't predict one way or the other.


        From what I've heard, people can do just about anything they want in China except challenge the rule of the communist party.
        I AM surprised at the apparent freedoms they have, but I know FOR A FACT that they interview people coming and going, and restrict some. Chinese coworkers have told me so. ALSO, COMMUNICATIONS are restricted! Various news programs and documentaries have said so. ALSO, some MAJOR changes are made with NO consideration for those affected, I watched a documentary about a river that was changed and nearly stopped a lot of farmers.

        So they do a LOT more than simply restrict what people do with the communist party. THINK ABOUT IT! If you simply say someone can't attack you, they could go out, get all sorts of weapons, and have a million people attack you AT ONCE! What you want to do is IDEALLY, either limit access, monitor access, or make them feel good about the situation. ALL communist countries try all of the above.

        Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by derekwong28 View Post

      I don't think it will end up in a massacre or for that matter with the Chinese army on the streets. China risks severe international repercussions and sanctions should that happen. Also, it could spark off an exodus of skilled professionals, many of whom hold foreign passports.
      Thanks, Derek.

      Originally Posted by HN View Post

      I was thinking the same. What would they do?
      Eventually, perhaps even remove/forfeit China's right to a permanent seat on the UN Security Council? I suspect that's also a longer-term underlying issue, here, with some countries allegedly already very eager to do so, and is perhaps among the many reasons why the international repercussions and sanctions may matter to China.

      .
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    China, IIRC, swore that this type of thing wouldn't happen in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is SUPPOSED to be different. MOST, including me, were SUPRISED with the apparent freedom in Hong Kong after China took over.

    If China has another Tienanmen, it will only hurt the little respect they have left, hurt Hong Kong, and maybe reverse the trend they have had. I think it would be DUMB! The LOGICAL "socialist" compromise, would be to isolate Hong Kong from China, and further restrict communication. Keep Hong Kong free, and hope China is not affected. They do that ELSEWHERE, why not hongkong?

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Look how effectively Occupy Wall Street was broken up. I believe that this too will be similarly broken up with necessary force applied. It won't be another Tiananmen.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

      Look how effectively Occupy Wall Street was broken up. I believe that this too will be similarly broken up with necessary force applied. It won't be another Tiananmen.
      Sure, but they didn't want it bad enough.....yet. You have to remember where the people activating are coming from. Here, we're being sold Marxism. There they're trying to get out of communism.

      I've read Marx. I've always been fond of his dialectics, and right now the way our move from republic to socialism is going, it's testimony to how actually brilliant he was. It still remains, though, that Marxism has been tried a few times and the only thing it's accomplished is making a very wealthy powerful upper class and murdering its own people.

      I would not call Hong Kong Marxist, but it is communist, and communist societies collapse fairly fast all in all. They are nice on paper, but they aren't very sustainable in the real world.

      Derek, do you know Marx? You realize what the next step is for Hong Kong on Marx's dialectic chart is, right?
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        Sure, but they didn't want it bad enough.....yet. You have to remember where the people activating are coming from. Here, we're being sold Marxism. There they're trying to get out of communism.

        I've read Marx. I've always been fond of his dialectics, and right now the way our move from republic to socialism is going, it's testimony to how actually brilliant he was. It still remains, though, that Marxism has been tried a few times and the only thing it's accomplished is making a very wealthy powerful upper class and murdering its own people.

        I would not call Hong Kong Marxist, but it is communist, and communist societies collapse fairly fast all in all. They are nice on paper, but they aren't very sustainable in the real world.

        Derek, do you know Marx? You realize what the next step is for Hong Kong on Marx's dialectic chart is, right?
        The occupy movement AGAIN, is NOT like tienamen square. It is like the communist revolution. Listen closely! It is EVEN the same message/demands! And it DOES sound like Marx! Look closely! The SAME methods by the SAME kind of leaders. The occupy movement wasn't really a protest, but kind of a trial run.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
          Sal, Hong Kong is not communist. It has been ranked many times as the freest economy in the world. Milton Friedman once said "If you want to see capitalism in action, go to Hong Kong." He wrote in 1990 that the Hong Kong economy was perhaps the best example of a free market economy. Another difference there is freedom of speech and association here, even though there is no real democracy.

          But the reality is much more complex. The economy is dominated by well connected oligarchs who run various monopolies. This is why there is so much frustration at the moment. There are almost as many billionaires as Britain which has nine times the population. You have an abundance of Lamborghinis and Ferraris on the streets while eighty year olds have to collect discarded paper boxes for a living. You have thousands of people literally living in extremely small "cages" or "coffin homes" where the owners charge exorbitant rents. This article explains the reality of the economy in Hong Kong.

          Economist crony capitalism index: The world's freest economy, Hong Kong, is also the most plutocratic.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by derekwong28 View Post

            Sal, Hong Kong is not communist. It has been ranked many times as the freest economy in the world. Milton Friedman once said "If you want to see capitalism in action, go to Hong Kong." He wrote in 1990 that the Hong Kong economy was perhaps the best example of a free market economy. Another difference there is freedom of speech and association here, even though there is no real democracy.

            But the reality is much more complex. The economy is dominated by well connected oligarchs who run various monopolies. This is why there is so much frustration at the moment. There are almost as many billionaires as Britain which has nine times the population. You have an abundance of Lamborghinis and Ferraris on the streets while eighty year olds have to collect discarded paper boxes for a living. You have thousands of people literally living in extremely small "cages" or "coffin homes" where the owners charge exorbitant rents. This article explains the reality of the economy in Hong Kong.

            Economist crony capitalism index: The world's freest economy, Hong Kong, is also the most plutocratic.
            That is why I said what I did about Hong Kong earlier, like isolating it from china, as opposed to making it communistic, or having another tienamin. Say what you want though, but I doubt many thought this would work THIS long under chinese rule, no offense. I didn't think it would work so well.

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              That is why I said what I did about Hong Kong earlier, like isolating it from china, as opposed to making it communistic, or having another tienamin. Say what you want though, but I doubt many thought this would work THIS long under chinese rule, no offense. I didn't think it would work so well.

              Steve
              Steve, Hong Kong's relative autonomy is only guaranteed until 2047. I expect that an exodus will happen unless China extends Hong Kong's autonomy beyond that. They will have to make their intentions clear at least 15-20 years before 2047. There were hopes before that China will become more like Hong Kong rather than the other way. But as time goes on, this is becoming more and more of a pipe dream.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              they didn't want it bad enough.
              I've heard that said about OWS - and that gives those people a lot more credit than they deserve. In hindsight people treat that protest as something really important - and in the end it wasn't.

              They didn't KNOW what they wanted - you could ask 6 of them why they were there and get 6 different answers. They didn't have an solutions to offer or present a dedisred outcome - they were just protesting.

              They didn't police themselves well so took over and trashed a public park and allowed unsavory elements into their ranks.

              The protestors in Hong Kong have a specific goal for their elections. I've read about Hong Kong a long time ago and was surprised at the freedoms there - could have been Friedman I was reading.

              Hong Kong is relatively free to live in - but poor are poorer - and rich are richer. Same complaint in the US. Interesting.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                I've heard that said about OWS - and that gives those people a lot more credit than they deserve. In hindsight people treat that protest as something really important - and in the end it wasn't.
                The fact is that it had NOTHING to do with the people! If you look at the front of the line, that becomes OBVIOUS! They even wore special vests to make it clear who the leaders were.

                They didn't KNOW what they wanted - you could ask 6 of them why they were there and get 6 different answers. They didn't have an solutions to offer or present a dedisred outcome - they were just protesting.
                People asked them! They cam up with different off the wall answers that they were CLEARLY reaching for. During the communist revolution, they might have said "Personal freedom, and equal pay". The REALITY was that they were working to move in a dictator! It was like irobot!

                They didn't police themselves well so took over and trashed a public park and allowed unsavory elements into their ranks.
                They WERE the unsavory elements! The trash was just their way of life!

                The protestors in Hong Kong have a specific goal for their elections. I've read about Hong Kong a long time ago and was surprised at the freedoms there - could have been Friedman I was reading.

                Hong Kong is relatively free to live in - but poor are poorer - and rich are richer. Same complaint in the US. Interesting.
                Well, the seniors being so poor, and the casket homes, like derek was talking about, make sense. Because of inflation, etc.... That will happen when infrastructure and populations are stretched. As for the rich being richer? One of the reasons why hong kong has done as well as it has is because it is a free port and so free. But HEY, there are RICH people in CHINA also, apparently, and there are certainly POOR people in china.

                Let's look at russia. There are people that are EASILY among the very richest in the world! There are also people that are so poor that they are lucky if they have heat or a meal. SOME of those problems are BECAUSE they are, or because they were, communist! Communist countries give less incentive to do even a decent job. Look at the yugo. One of the worst cars made, and it was STILL somewhat rare and bad.

                Go to the US. TV, until recently, had an OK set of channels in most areas for FREE! Public assistance and low income housing, even if you had NOTHING. Places that would feed you if you even had NOTHING. A lot of places are like Panera. Panera is a nice restaurant, and they don't like to keep bread/pasteries for more than a day. What do they do with them, AS A PART OF CORPORATE POLICY? They give them to the poor! It is STILL good bread! It is bread they could probably sell the next day with no complaints. But they give it to the poor.

                As another person said here, even many of the most impoverished in the US don't know real poverty. HECK, I try to watch some videos, and see "the gnjr stry". I won't dignify that ad by spelling it right. Anyway a media company is giving the poor free access to the internet. Meanwhile, I am paying SEVEN times what I used to for MINE from the SAME company. Now $1680/year(about what the difference is SO FAR per year) might not sound like a lot to YOU guys, but to me it is almost a complete month on my mortgage, every year, and maybe another year or two I can live in my old age without having to struggle. It is ALSO about 30% of what I am supposed to pay for tests every year. My costs are going up EVERY YEAR because of the idiotic government. And if a person feels it is unfair that they don't get paid as much because they decided NOT to work in a meaningful job, WHY do they consider it fair that I should have to pay over like $6000 extra(AFTER INSURANCE) simply because I have some problems.

                I don't even get to use my access much of the time. But don't worry..... She said it is ok because(HER WORDS) "I like to feel...................(pausing like the royal (arkellian?) alien in MIB, when he asks "what is word? WHAT is word!?!?!?")...........smart.". YEP! I bet she plays games and watches movies all the time.

                Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                I've heard that said about OWS - and that gives those people a lot more credit than they deserve. In hindsight people treat that protest as something really important - and in the end it wasn't.

                They didn't KNOW what they wanted - you could ask 6 of them why they were there and get 6 different answers. They didn't have an solutions to offer or present a dedisred outcome - they were just protesting.

                They didn't police themselves well so took over and trashed a public park and allowed unsavory elements into their ranks.

                The protestors in Hong Kong have a specific goal for their elections. I've read about Hong Kong a long time ago and was surprised at the freedoms there - could have been Friedman I was reading.

                Hong Kong is relatively free to live in - but poor are poorer - and rich are richer. Same complaint in the US. Interesting.

                Kay - I'm talking about all the social unrest here right now, not just OWS. OWS didn't get the support because a lot of their aims are socialist and most people still don't want socialism here. Our gov is overstepping their authority something furious. I believe if the elections don't go right in Nov, we might be looking at mass revolt. Our gov is making a lot of decisions that aren't their place to make and they are not listening to the people at all -- they are working for the corporations. I think that what Derek just said about the corporations in Hong Kong, they've about reached their boiling point, too.

                Over here, I think it's going to be the consensual poisoning of food and land that pushes us over the edge, but it's all the socialist bills going through and the royalty attitude of the politicians that's the core.
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by derekwong28 View Post

            Sal, Hong Kong is not communist. It has been ranked many times as the freest economy in the world. Milton Friedman once said "If you want to see capitalism in action, go to Hong Kong." He wrote in 1990 that the Hong Kong economy was perhaps the best example of a free market economy. Another difference there is freedom of speech and association here, even though there is no real democracy.

            But the reality is much more complex. The economy is dominated by well connected oligarchs who run various monopolies. This is why there is so much frustration at the moment. There are almost as many billionaires as Britain which has nine times the population. You have an abundance of Lamborghinis and Ferraris on the streets while eighty year olds have to collect discarded paper boxes for a living. You have thousands of people literally living in extremely small "cages" or "coffin homes" where the owners charge exorbitant rents. This article explains the reality of the economy in Hong Kong.

            Economist crony capitalism index: The world's freest economy, Hong Kong, is also the most plutocratic.
            Derek - what they "say" and how a country is run is two different things. If they are so "free" -- why are the Chinese even a factor? I'm not just talking about economics - I'm talking about social structure. Hong Kong is controlled by China. Nuff said.

            If you ask me you have as much crony capitalism there as we do here, these days, too. If you didn't, "thousands of people" would not be sleeping in boxes.

            It will be interesting to see what happens if you can ditch China's control there, though.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Hong Kong Protesters Make Apparent Concessions To Authorities
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      It will be interesting to see where this world is in 10 years. There are people in place in EVERY nation to spring into action and reveal a nefarious plot. Some have been found in the US and Germany, for example. Muliple countries know this, and have admitted it. ISIS is now trying to twist michelle bachmans words to incite action against those they call enemies. They are ALSO showing Obama feigning to care about Israel, complete with wearing a token yarmulke, in front of a US flag with the Israeli prime minister to create an ENEMY! The Germans are again talking about German jihadists.

      Of course, I am only talking about ONE form of the enemy. There are many more, including those aligning with places like China. If I could, I would move them to a nearby planet and become a trillionare by having exclusive rights to publicize the now ABSURDLY FUNNY result. IMAGINE! The WORLD would want to watch, and they would have to pay ME to do it.

      I wonder how long it would last! 100 years?(UNLIKELY) 50 years?(without opposition, UNLIKELY) 20 years? (doubt it) 10years?(How would they act?) 1 year? 1 hour? 10 minutes? I give it maybe a couple months.

      I WONDER! Could I make a bet with soros, and maybe have HIM PAY for it? If I could think of a way to do it, FOR EVEN A BILLION DOLLARS, I would do it TOMORROW!!!!!!!!! If he declined, I would publish it all over youtube, etc...

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    Concessions? They don't have a leg to stand on.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

      Concessions? They don't have a leg to stand on.
      Actually, they have a LOT of legs to stand on. What is your point? I mean they DO physically exist! THAT is why they can be killed and why we hear about it. Because they exist, they CAN block roads, etc... NO ARMY on the planet can retroactively undo that, and since they are people, they can put the military into a position where they would have to be killed and physically moved.

      So YEAH, they can make a concession. It doesn't matter if they are one little kid against every country's army on the planet!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    Things are beginning to heat up a bit now. Yesterday, more than 200 people were injured at this protest in Mongkok.


    Here is a worrying incident a few days ago when the police arrested a protester and carried him off to a side alley. They then proceeded to beat him up with kicks and punches. The protester happened to be a local politician of some standing. It was alleged he might have thrown some sort of liquid, perhaps urine at the police.

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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    Man, some countries really really really deserve to be higher up that list.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    There would be less LEGITIMATE unrest in the US if all the ILlegitimate "unrest" would STOP!!!!!!!!!! The Occupy movement is one example of clear ILlegitimate unrest.

    HECK, if it were legitimate, WHY would they "occupy" wall street? WALL STREET!?!?!?!?!?!? GIVE ME A BREAK! It used to cost a lot to trade stock, and "full service brokers" didn't even have a set price. I believe you even had to buy a round lot (100 shares) and even if you bought 1 share, and the charge were $5, a share would likely have to cost over $500 and have decent up potential to have a chance at making a decent profit to just break even.

    Long story short? People considered it a "rich man's game". So how many on OWS do you suppose figured they owned stock? And WHAT do you think they thought Wall Street would or could do? Wall street is just a place where orders are matched up. They don't generally determine if a stock will go up or down, or what company will fail or succeed.

    Now the interesting thing is that most people in OWS WERE in the stock market, but didn't know it. A LOT of people are. Some may even buy a mutual fund like "openheimer capital appreciation"! It ISN'T a stock! Many DON'T buy it from a stock broker. You KNOW most DON'T read the prospectus or care! I bet it NEVER occured to many that IT, like so many others, and like pension funds, etc... invests in STOCK! ALSO, matching USED to be 100% like that illustrated in the movie "trading places". NOW, most of it is done by COMPUTERS!

    And the idea that people should get all these freebies, etc? I still remember what it was like even in the 1970s-1980s. We had to search for a payphone, if we needed to make a call, etc.... We had to search for a gas station, if we were lost. I STILL have to do either at times. A cell phone may be out of power or left behind, and GPS systems may be old, etc... So why do the poor suddenly get what they get? I didn't even get a cell phone until like 1997! A few years earlier, I SPLURGED and bought a BEEPER, REMEMBER THOSE? For those that don't remember, a beeper was simply a device that gave you a phone number of a caller so you could get to a land line and call THEM! This was the second variant of a game called "telephone tag"!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Steve. OWS was about the illegal crap that WS was doing (probably could have used present tense "is"). They're against corporate ownership of the US. However - their answer is socialism. I don't think they "got" what they are asking for. That's true. But you misunderstood their point of going after Wall street by a mile. Also - many of the protesters were fairly well off themselves. The media played it as only poor people on welfare to make people ignore them. I'm sure there were poor there - but there were a lot of rather wealthy people in that crowd that know exactly how WS runs.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Steve. OWS was about the illegal crap that WS was doing (probably could have used present tense "is"). They're against corporate ownership of the US. However - their answer is socialism. I don't think they "got" what they are asking for. That's true. But you misunderstood their point of going after Wall street by a mile. Also - many of the protesters were fairly well off themselves. The media played it as only poor people on welfare to make people ignore them. I'm sure there were poor there - but there were a lot of rather wealthy people in that crowd that know exactly how WS runs.
      WALL STREET has NOTHING to do with "corporate ownership of the US". They don't even really have to do with "corporate ownership" AT ALL! Shares of stock are SUPPOSED to be shares of OWNERSHIP in a corporation, but even THAT is often questionable. Take berkshire hathway.... A B class costs 1/30th the A, and is supposed to signify 1/30th the shares of A, but it represents 1/150th(iirc) the vote of the A. So you really only get 1/5th the ownership. But that is NOT dictated by wall street! That is dictated by the COMPANY according to authorization given by the STATE of INCORPORATION!

      As for the company's lobbying, that has NOTHING to do with the stock. OH, and a corporation has *******ALWAYS******* been a person under the law! That is what the word CORPoration MEANS!

      CORP......BODY(AKA PERSON)
      ORATION....MADE A

      So a CORPORATION is "MADE A PERSON".

      A sole proprietorship is effectively considered a part of the "NATURAL PERSON" who is the owner or owners.

      And THAT is why if you sue a proprietorship, you sue the owner, and suing a corporation does NOT allow you to sue the owner.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW about the cell phones in the US? They had satellite phones LONG ago! Does ANYONE here have one? I DON'T! THEN, they came out with the first generation cell phones. Does anyone here have one of THOSE? I don't! THEN they had like the SECOND generation, that were FAR smaller. You see them every now and then in comedies and the like to poke fun. In the movie "Beverly hillbillies", miss cathcart(?) is seen talking on one, and granny laughs at her. Does anyone have one of THOSE? I DON'T! OK, so now we get to like the mid 80s maybe, and cell phones look more like they do now. They were EXPENSIVE, and you had to buy them, and the cost per minute was HIGH. Does anyone have one from THERE? I DON'T!

    So when I got my beeper, I don't think I knew ANYONE that had ANY cell phone, though similar phones had been out for decades. My father had a nice company with HUGE clients, bought a home, bought a NICE EXPENSIVE car, and STILL didn't have a phone. HECK, he didn't buy a cell phone until after like 2005, though he bought yet ANOTHER car, that has onstar, IIRC, For a ride down memory lane: History of mobile phones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia They even have that comical phone I spoke of. Apparently IT came out in 1973!

    OH YEAH, I must REALLY be privileged! I get to pay taxes and I couldn't get a free phone and had to search for maybe over an hour for a payphone. TODAY, a poor person that may never leave their home and pays NO taxes may get a free cell phone! They EVEN have time to shoot the breeze with a friend next door while they do the laundry!

    Steve
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