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Refresher Course On Existence &The Universe

by thunderbird
28 replies
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We simultaneously harbor what seems to be contradictory notions of existence -- namely, the continuity of of things vs particulates composing matter (fragments and fragmentation). I don't know what I'm talking about but this is a cool lecture.
  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    THAT was interesting.

    So, if the Universe is expanding at a growing rate, something out there is countering the force of gravity. Without such a counter-force, it would tend to slow growth and eventually cause the Universe to fall back in on itself into a single massive black hole. This would then explode, starting the whole process again. (Sometimes called the Long Wave Theory.)

    I'm fascinated by the thought of what that driving force of acceleration might be.
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      THAT was interesting.

      So, if the Universe is expanding at a growing rate, something out there is countering the force of gravity. Without such a counter-force, it would tend to slow growth and eventually cause the Universe to fall back in on itself into a single massive black hole. This would then explode, starting the whole process again. (Sometimes called the Long Wave Theory.)

      I'm fascinated by the thought of what that driving force of acceleration might be.
      I can't listen to the lecture, no audio here in this lab.

      I'll admit, I'm outta my element in this discussion, although I used to read a lot about things like this years ago.

      I thought the Hubble Constant, figured out years ago, proved the universe is expanding. If I remember correctly, the rate of expansion is slowing at some very small rate which implies or begs the question of what happens when the rate equals zero. I think some have suggested a contraction, or an effect similar to what happens when a stretched rubber band is allowed to contract.

      https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~dfabricant/huchra/hubble/

      It seems the countering force may be a natural loss of momentum. Sort of a natural drag.

      If the Long Wave Theory, which I know 0 about, is close to accurate, then it seems there would be another type of big bang which starts it all over again. Imagine a front row seat to that one.

      So, well, what started it all? And one thing I've tried to ponder, and of course I'm not the first, is what's on the "other side" of the expanding universe? Or, what is the universe expanding into? Unused space? Encroaching on some other expanding universe? lol

      But then it can't be another universe because that would imply collision, or something.

      Ever read anything about the universality of certain geometries such as the circle? Fascinating stuff.

      Ken
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        On the related subject of "dark matter", I found this, during the week: Dark matter may be massive: Theorists suggest the standard model may account for the stuff -- ScienceDaily

        (In case anyone's puzzled, as I was at first: I very strongly suspect that Science Daily has carelessly omitted the word "not" from the title, when they published this on their site a few days ago! ).

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        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          On the related subject of "dark matter", I found this, during the week: Dark matter may be massive: Theorists suggest the standard model may account for the stuff -- ScienceDaily

          (In case anyone's puzzled, as I was at first: I very strongly suspect that Science Daily has carelessly omitted the word "not" from the title, when they published this on their site a few days ago! ).

          .
          There were recent recent observations of the sun that suggest detection of dark matter. I wonder if it somehow plays into ideas discussed in that article you shared.
          Dark matter may have been detected
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            I read something else interesting, recently, about the theory that "dark energy is somehow consuming dark matter" (I didn't understand much of it), but I can't find it now. I'll come back later and edit this post, if I find it.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              I just have a strong feeling that this subject is confusing enough to most people, that it will end up as a rationale for any nonsensical "theory" one of us chooses to sell.
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                I just have a strong feeling that this subject is confusing enough to most people, that it will end up as a rationale for any nonsensical "theory" one of us chooses to sell.
                I think it was Richard Feynman, himself, who first observed that "The only certainty about quantum theory is that nobody really understands it", wasn't it?

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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  I think it was Richard Feynman, himself, who first observed that "The only certainty about quantum theory is that nobody really understands it", wasn't it?

                  .

                  I only watched the first several minutes of the video, but I'll watch the rest later. Physics like this fascinates me.
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              • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                I think it was Richard Feynman, himself, who first observed that "The only certainty about quantum theory is that nobody really understands it", wasn't it?

                .
                It was. "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." ~ Richard Feynman


                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                I just have a strong feeling that this subject is confusing enough to most people, that it will end up as a rationale for any nonsensical "theory" one of us chooses to sell.
                I think it is time to bring out that video again:
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      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

        I thought the Hubble Constant, figured out years ago, proved the universe is expanding. If I remember correctly, the rate of expansion is slowing at some very small rate which implies or begs the question of what happens when the rate equals zero.
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Ken,According to that video, and unless I misheard/misinterpreted something, the rate of expansion is increasing.

        The 2011 Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded to three scientists for their work in explaining that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. They studied the light from distant supernovae and noticed that "the supernovae's host galaxies are flying away from each other at increasing speed."

        What remains unclear is whether this acceleration is caused by what is termed "dark energy" or whether we have to revise what we think we know about the nature of gravity.

        Physics Nobel Explainer: Why Is Expanding Universe Accelerating?

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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

          The 2011 Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded to three scientists for their work in explaining that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. They studied the light from distant supernovae and noticed that "the supernovae's host galaxies are flying away from each other at increasing speed."

          What remains unclear is whether this acceleration is caused by what is termed "dark energy" or whether we have to revise what we think we know about the nature of gravity.

          Physics Nobel Explainer: Why Is Expanding Universe Accelerating?

          ..
          The rate of expansion is increasing, and galaxies are moving further apart, at an increasing speed.

          Suns explode and create heavier elements. Each generation of Suns has a larger percentage of heavier elements to work with, and eventually that cycle will stop.

          Every computer model shows that eventaully, all the other galaxies will be traveling away from us fast enough...and far enough, that they will be invisible to us.

          And trillions of years from now, the universe will be dark and cold, because the nuclear fuel has all run out...and no stars are being formed.

          Out with a whimper.

          Of course, this is just what the science says.
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          • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            The rate of expansion is increasing, and galaxies are moving further apart, at an increasing speed.

            Suns explode and create heavier elements. Each generation of Suns has a larger percentage of heavier elements to work with, and eventually that cycle will stop.

            Every computer model shows that eventaully, all the other galaxies will be traveling away from us fast enough...and far enough, that they will be invisible to us.

            And trillions of years from now, the universe will be dark and cold, because the nuclear fuel has all run out...and no stars are being formed.

            Out with a whimper.

            Of course, this is just what the science says.
            Yes, I'm aware of those computer models. My post was in response to previous comments regarding the increasing rate of acceleration. (Unless you were just making a general point).


            The Whimperer


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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

              Yes, I'm aware of those computer models. My post was in response to previous comments regarding the increasing rate of acceleration. (Unless you were just making a general point).


              The Whimperer


              ..

              Frank....um...Mr. Donovan.....

              Sometimes I post something after something was said that was interesting, and my post isn't directly about what you said. Basically, I was adding to something you said.

              My ways are mysterious.....
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              • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Frank....um...Mr. Donovan.....

                Sometimes I post something after something was said that was interesting, and my post isn't directly about what you said. Basically, I was adding to something you said.

                My ways are mysterious.....
                We know....

                In fact it's estimated that up to 73% of your output on this forum might be in the form of "dark posts". We know they exist, because we can see their effect on other posts, but as yet, nobody has been able to identify them.



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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    I need some of that force to expand the space inside my my tiny house.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    Personally I know very little about the theories, but I do personally know a few of the most reputable scientists that have published works on matters of the universe. One day we were talking and I made a comment that made them stop talking and return to their lab "Who's to say that our universe is our first and only occurrence of the universe."

    A little background, prior to our discussion we all agreed that there would be no questions, so my comment was not a question posed to our little group. Albeit, there were past and future discussions wherein we all agreed to pose only questions. It is a process.

    That same month I was asked to elaborate to a larger group of scientists. Initially, I declined simply because I am not educated in science of any nature unless you consider computer sciences to be a.. science. However, I accepted based on a promise that anything and everything I said would not be considered a statement of fact and only as food for thought and never be part of any official record and more importantly never considered as a question.

    We all sat down in a secured area and my statements were kept short and taken in a very profession way with open minds.

    The gist of it is the simple the that no one can say with certainty if we are living in the first universe or the millionth universe that exists today. When one considers that the universe is expanding and there may be a limit to the expansion that results in an extraction that also results in a new expansion then it is possible that our universe is not first or the last.

    Food for thought.

    Jeffery 100% :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by Jeffery View Post

      Personally I know very little about the theories, but I do personally know a few of the most reputable scientists that have published works on matters of the universe. One day we were talking and I made a comment that made them stop talking and return to their lab "Who's to say that our universe is our first and only occurrence of the universe."

      A little background, prior to our discussion we all agreed that there would be no questions, so my comment was not a question posed to our little group. Albeit, there were past and future discussions wherein we all agreed to pose only questions. It is a process.

      That same month I was asked to elaborate to a larger group of scientists. Initially, I declined simply because I am not educated in science of any nature unless you consider computer sciences to be a.. science. However, I accepted based on a promise that anything and everything I said would not be considered a statement of fact and only as food for thought and never be part of any official record and more importantly never considered as a question.

      We all sat down in a secured area and my statements were kept short and taken in a very profession way with open minds.

      The gist of it is the simple the that no one can say with certainty if we are living in the first universe or the millionth universe that exists today. When one considers that the universe is expanding and there may be a limit to the expansion that results in an extraction that also results in a new expansion then it is possible that our universe is not first or the last.

      Food for thought.

      Jeffery 100% :-)
      That is amazing. I've had great conversations with scientists doing advanced research in various branches of science, myself. There're generations of scientists in my family, but I didn't go that way (wish I had). I hope my son becomes a scientist (but I'm not pushing any life itinerary on him LOL). Anyway, I can't honestly make any claims to inspiring any compelling scientific investigations, but it sounds like you really sparked something with them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Ken,
    I thought the Hubble Constant, figured out years ago, proved the universe is expanding. If I remember correctly, the rate of expansion is slowing at some very small rate
    According to that video, and unless I misheard/misinterpreted something, the rate of expansion is increasing. That was the big surprise, at least for me.

    FTR, the "Long Wave" isn't a formal theory (outside of economics), as far as I know. I've never heard that name used by a physicist, at any rate. It's a rather simplistic model, but without some force overriding the pull of gravity it seems obvious. But then, a lot of things that seem obvious end up being wrong, so...
    It seems the countering force may be a natural loss of momentum. Sort of a natural drag.
    That drag would be gravity.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      That drag would be gravity.


      Paul
      I don't know if anyone knows that or how it can be proven. It seems anything in motion will naturally slow down unless there's some energy preventing it from happening. Friction can do it.

      If the universe is expanding, and apparently it is according to smart folks with degrees in these matters, then whatever it's expanding into "seems" like it may exert friction on the expanding universe. Unless it's frictionless, and I have no idea but I'd venture a guess no one knows.

      But, in the end, what the hell do I know about all this..;


      Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    The universe is much easier to explain than good ole existence.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      The universe is much easier to explain than good ole existence.
      Explaining the universe, me? I have a hard time coming up with a coherent answer to my son's question, "Why do things get wet?" Because water makes them wet didn't work -- it just gets followed up with, "Why does water make things wet?"
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

        Explaining the universe, me? I have a hard time coming up with a coherent answer to my son's question, "Why do things get wet?" Because water makes them wet didn't work -- it just gets followed up with, "Why does water make things wet?"

        I meant to say its much easier for scientists to explain the universe than to explain existence.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          T-Bird

          If you get a chance - show your son how much faster dirt "gets wet" when you add a drop or two of liquid soap to the water. Breaking that "invisible shield" will get his little scientific mind churning with ideas
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        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          I meant to say its much easier for scientists to explain the universe than to explain existence.
          Phew! I feel so much lighter now.
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      The universe is much easier to explain than good ole existence.
      Ain't that the troof.


      Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    T-Bird's son, 4, becomes the next Bill Nye or Neil deGrasse Tyson or Michio Kaku or.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I'm glad "We know." is still around.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      I'm glad "We know." is still around.
      We know....



      But I do miss WalkingCarpet. "We know" fit most of his posts perfectly. And I suspect he was in on the joke. I hope he comes back.
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