Will Dash Cams Be A Quick Fix?

11 years ago

I didn't watch the video, so no comment on that.
The incident in NYC was caught on video, did that help at all?
Now with that said I can see where recording all encounters would benefit both sides.

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ThomM

11 years ago

To add a little bit. I think the bigger problem is with the laws themselves. Look at the incident in NYC for an example.
A man lost his life for selling untaxed cigs. How is that any different from someone getting killed for not paying protection money to the mob? If you really want to protect citizens and police, then change or eliminate some of the thousands and thousands of laws we have and the way they are enforced.
That incident could of been handled with an appearance ticket.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

A man lost his life for selling untaxed cigs. How is that any different from someone getting killed for not paying "protection" money to the mob? If you really want to protect citizens and police, then change or eliminate some of the thousands and thousands of laws we have and the way they are enforced.
That incident could of been handled with an appearance ticket.

ALL good points! I take umbrage ONLY with "protection". Please put it in quotes. It was NEVER protection money(money paid to have them protect you). They merely CALL it that because they would otherwise do damage that you might NEED protection against. But a TAX is exactly the same thing. It is simply done under the COLOR of law!!!!!!!

That is a real legal term, and NOT racist. HERE is how google defines it:

Color of law refers to an appearance of legal power to act but which may operate in violation of law. For example, though a police officer acts with the "color of law" authority to arrest someone, if such an arrest is made without probable cause the arrest may actually be in violation of law.

Steve

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Joe Mobley

11 years ago

Thom,

Let me respectfully disagree. Trying to separate emotions from facts, it seems to me that there would have been no deaths in either NYC or Ferguson had the suspects not resisted arrest.

Joe Mobley

Originally Posted by ThomM

Look at the incident in NYC for an example.
A man lost his life for selling untaxed cigs.

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ThomM

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

Thom,

Let me respectfully disagree. Trying to separate emotions from facts, it seems to me that there would have been no deaths in either NYC or Ferguson had the suspects not resisted arrest.

Joe Mobley

That's not based on emotion Joe, but on fact.
That's all he was doing. He had also had issues with those cops harassing him before and was fed up with it.
I had a problem with a local cop years ago that this incident reminded me of. The cop had an issue with me because of my long hair (back in the early 70's) and because I rode a bike. It was common for him to pull me over on the bike or in my car and he would make me "assume the position" at gun point while he would frisk me, search my car (or bike) and then send me on my way. One time in my car I told him that was it, I was done. I Was rewarded by being pulled from my car and getting my face slammed on the hood. I was arrested for "resisting arrest".
You get harassed enough by the cops and you will finally resist, which is what they want so they can use force.
This guy was being harassed and the cops could of given him an appearance ticket. He was committing at the worse a non-violent, victim less crime, unless you conceder the state a victim for not receiving it's tax money.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

That's not based on emotion Joe, but on fact.
That's all he was doing. He had also had issues with those cops harassing him before and was fed up with it.
I had a problem with a local cop years ago that this incident reminded me of. The cop had an issue with me because of my long hair (back in the early 70's) and because I rode a bike. It was common for him to pull me over on the bike or in my car and he would make me "assume the position" at gun point while he would frisk me, search my car (or bike) and then send me on my way. One time in my car I told him that was it, I was done. I Was rewarded by being pulled from my car and getting my face slammed on the hood. I was arrested for "resisting arrest".
You get harassed enough by the cops and you will finally resist, which is what they want so they can use force.
This guy was being harassed and the cops could of given him an appearance ticket. He was committing at the worse a non-violent, victim less crime, unless you conceder the state a victim for not receiving it's tax money.

You don't think EVERYONE is upset at this? But it isn't an excuse to be antagonistic. And the Government is VERY greedy. It is said that the most fierce collection agency EVER is the US IRS. They will DESTROY you on a whim. They will search the planet for every penny, and shut down all access. They even threaten other COUNTRIES so they can do that. And they don't care about your health or even if you live another minute. If attacking YOU puts THOUSANDS out of work, they don't care about THAT EITHER! ALSO, if you should die, they will take every penny and likely try to see if they could find more. And they have ways to even encourage the local police to help out.

As for you with your long hair and bike, we don't know the whole story. There ARE a lot of bad people on Bikes, and some think ALL bikers are in nasty gangs, etc... So it COULD have simply been a bias, a kind of profiling. The long hair certainly didn't help. And NO, I am NOT saying anything against bike riders or people with long hair. It is simply how many people were.

Steve

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ThomM

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

You don't think EVERYONE is upset at this? But it isn't an excuse to be antagonistic. And the Government is VERY greedy. It is said that the most fierce collection agency EVER is the US IRS. They will DESTROY you on a whim. They will search the planet for every penny, and shut down all access. They even threaten other COUNTRIES so they can do that. And they don't care about your health or even if you live another minute. If attacking YOU puts THOUSANDS out of work, they don't care about THAT EITHER! ALSO, if you should die, they will take every penny and likely try to see if they could find more. And they have ways to even encourage the local police to help out.

As for you with your long hair and bike, we don't know the whole story. There ARE a lot of bad people on Bikes, and some think ALL bikers are in nasty gangs, etc... So it COULD have simply been a bias, a kind of profiling. The long hair certainly didn't help. And NO, I am NOT saying anything against bike riders or people with long hair. It is simply how many people were.

Steve

And what a story it is

I will say I've had enough experience with the police to know what happened in NYC was uncalled for. I've also had enough experience to know what happened isn't the norm.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Don't ALL police now have dash cams? MANY DO! But that wouldn't have helped with the michael brown deal, unless there was a good mike, and things could be turned to the side. Dash cams are generally used to cover stops. You see things from the vantage point of the VEHICLE.

The talk with Michael brown was a "body cam". The idea would be that the officer could not generally interact with a person without his actions being videoed, from HIS/HER vantage point. If they disabled the camera, suspicion is raised, and defenses are obstructed. The IDEA is to make ALL people more civil and, if a michael brown, episode happens again, nobody can claim the victim did what he didn't, and it could corroborate the officers story. So, with NO camera, or disabled you will have a case like MB. If a video showed up from a body cam, I suspect MOST of the"witnesses" would ******DISAPPEAR******! Hopefully, most of the "leaders" would ******DISAPPEAR******! A grand jury would either not be called, or would INDICT. HOPEFULLY, the PROTESTERS would ******DISAPPEAR******! It would be harder to declare the innocent as guilty, etc....

Steve

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HeySal

11 years ago

As many cameras as we are paying for being operated in our cities, frankly, I'm a little shocked that a lot of stuff that goes on isn't on camera already. What happens to those camera shots when a victim is stopped by police?

Anyhow - yes, I think they need cameras on cars (all not just police) and they need cameras on their persons as well. Last year alone over 120 blacks, and over 320 whites were killed by police. Almost all of those people were unarmed and unnecessarily killed. Cops that aren't going gun happy are going taser freaky, often tasing someone to death rather than just stopping them. That's not the whole problem, though.

The films we do get that show brutal, and unnecessary beatings are just becoming more and more frequent, too -- and yeah, we don't always know what happened before the beating -- but you can sure tell when someone is already down and the beating is not justifiable. Watching 4 or 5 guys beating and on a guy who is in a wheelchair, in handcuffs or laying on the ground trying to protect themselves from the blows isn't justified anything. It's violence.

What we need is cops who understand they are not judge and jury and that murder is murder whether they wear a badge or not. No murder that is not solely self defense is justifiable. Not one. And no beating is justifiable after a person is down.

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Kay King

11 years ago

Sal - Got a source for that number? I find one entry that claims TOTAL 320 people killed by cops in 2013.

Another claims 39 cops killed by civilians in 2013 and 316 people killed by cops.

But - is there a list of WHY the person was dealing with the cops when they were killed? For the most part, aren't cops dealing with people who have a problem with the law? Do those numbers count killings of hostage takers or of those who fired on or attacked police or who resisted arrest or led a high speed chase?

There was a recent case where a totally innocent person seems to have been killed when he was shot by a cop. The man came down a stairway at the wrong time and was shot by accident.

Almost always there is more to the story - a robbery, resisting arrest, breaking the law, having a toy gun that looks real and pointing it at people. It's a tragedy people die over this but if you don't want to enforce laws - you need to eliminate the laws.

Considering the number of arrests made across the country in a year - I didn't think the number sounded that high. To hear protestors recently, it sounds as if police are roaming the streets killing people across the country every day. It's just not true.

Some blogs are claiming one black person is killed by police every 28 hrs - it's not true but it's being presented as truth and people believe it. It makes the problems worse because the facts aren't facts but exaggerations. Then you have anger building on lies - and the truth is lost in the mess.

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Sal - Got a source for that number? I find one entry that claims TOTAL 320 people killed by cops in 2013.

Another claims 39 cops killed by civilians in 2013 and 316 people killed by cops.

But - is there a list of WHY the person was dealing with the cops when they were killed? For the most part, aren't cops dealing with people who have a problem with the law? Do those numbers count killings of hostage takers or of those who fired on or attacked police or who resisted arrest or led a high speed chase?

There was a recent case where a totally innocent person seems to have been killed when he was shot by a cop. The man came down a stairway at the wrong time and was shot by accident.

Almost always there is more to the story - a robbery, resisting arrest, breaking the law, having a toy gun that looks real and pointing it at people. It's a tragedy people die over this but if you don't want to enforce laws - you need to eliminate the laws.

Considering the number of arrests made across the country in a year - I didn't think the number sounded that high. To hear protestors recently, it sounds as if police are roaming the streets killing people across the country every day. It's just not true.

I just checked my stats - you are right, it's 320 total - with twice as many whites as blacks.

Still - you think that's okay and seem to believe that all of those people were criminals so it was just fine and dandy to kill them? Police are not judge and jury. As I stated before, too -- there are videos that show people being beaten senseless who are already down or restrained. You side with police on that? Lets hope you don't try to argue with a cop who has a bit of a control freak issue if you should get pulled over for something you know you weren't doing. I was threatened with tasing once just for telling the cop that I wasn't even driving where he said I was. I had just turned onto the road he stopped me on. Yeah - I'm a real criminal. I had to eat a ticket I didn't deserve or get tased because the cop was a freak of nature with control issues.

Not only is that a frightening view of justice - it's that this kind of justice is way too frequent for comfort. People cheered on the 200 troops that were sent to the Bundy resident a year or two ago - even though his "crime" was no more than owing money, and the case was in court. What a US agency is doing with a militia and unleashing it on citizens for owing money is a question that people didn't seem to be able to understand to ask.

Okay - there were 104 cops that died in 2013 - most were in car accidents, or heart attack victims, there were a few that died such ways as in a fire or via drowning that could have actually been in the act of heroic actions.

41 - four of which were vehicular pursuit and they lost control of the car, so 37 is what we are talking about. The were killed either in gun fire - one was stabbed. Of the gun fire deaths - some were shot during swat raids in which they weren't even in the right house. I can't remember the stats on that and don't have time to look it up again.

Police have a hard job. Nobody said any different. They do, however, have tasers that they can put people down with when they aren't armed. Why all the deadly force against unarmed people? And why all the excessive tasing of people who are already subdued, handcuffed, or in wheel chairs. I've seen videos of a lot of people who have already been subdued that police continue to tase, very purposefully. A pregnant woman on the ground with handcuffs on was tased in the stomach several times after she was on the ground and handcuffed. Tell me where that is not excessive force? I don't care what she did - how is that not excessive force?

Videos are turning up a very severe problem. We have a social problem, that's true. We also have a problem with our badged police feeling they can do whatever the heck they want with no repercussions. Why do you think in some places they've tried to make it illegal for citizens to film what is going on? There is not one bit of reason that should be going on at all if someone in a badge isn't breaking laws themselves.

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TimPhelan

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Some blogs are claiming one black person is killed by police every 28 hrs - it's not true but it's being presented as truth and people believe it. It makes the problems worse because the facts aren't facts but exaggerations. Then you have anger building on lies - and the truth is lost in the mess.

There is a report that people are quoting/misquoting:

The Report exposes how every 28 hours someone inside the United States, employed or protected by the U.S. government kills a Black child, woman or man...

We certainly do not intend to minimize the horror and importance of thousands of Black people who tragically die at the hands of other Black people each year. However, in general, those killings are not directly sponsored or sanctioned by federal, state and local governments. On the other hand, police, sheriffs, security guards and to a certain extent self-appointed enforcers of the law (vigilantes) ARE authorized by governments and paid for by taxes...

They killed 313 in 2012, and 288 of these killings involved unnecessary excessive force. Only 10 police officers and 16 security guards/vigilantes were ever charged with a crime.

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Midnight Oil

11 years ago

All sides are playing fast and loose with these statistics. Truth is, the numbers just aren't accurate. Only a small percentage of police departments report this information. That's a shame, especially at this point in our history. We've got mega-databases that can track everything imaginable . . . but we can't keep better records on police related deaths and such? Bullshit.

Love it or hate it, this is a clear example of where government is failing the people . . . and a point that all sides should be pushing for immediate action.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midnight Oil

All sides are playing fast and loose with these statistics. Truth is, the numbers just aren't accurate. Only a small percentage of police departments report this information. That's a shame, especially at this point in our history. We've got mega-databases that can track everything imaginable . . . but we can't keep better records on police related deaths and such? Bullshit.

Love it or hate it, this is a clear example of where government is failing the people . . . and a point that all sides should be pushing for immediate action.

Police RELATED deaths? What the heck does THAT mean!?!?!? One could argue that if a black goes into a home with a gun, and is shot, that it is a police related death because the guy may have gone in UNARMED, if police would never be there, and he might then not be shot! So where does it stop? Is a black that died from a contaminated batch of drugs a police death because the police forced someone to substitute?

And I am SURE that if a person shoots a cop, hits him SQUARE where the heart is and the cop, surviving ONLY because of a bullet proof vest, shoots him in the heart and kills him, that THAT is a "police related death".

So NO! With all the vague references and "legal meanderings" It is IMPOSSIBLE to keep such records!

Do you REALLY think cops just want to kill blacks? ESPECIALLY with the riots and all, WHY? I still remember how people reacted with Rodney King. I was in Woodland Hills, CA during that time.

And they won't hold back with whites either.

Are there some that are racist? PROBABLY! Are there some that are power hungry? LIKELY! Are there some that make mistakes? CERTAINLY! There comes a time when the crime and average treatment have to be looked at BEFORE screaming RACIST.

Steve

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Midnight Oil

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Police RELATED deaths? What the heck does THAT mean!?!?!?

It isn't that difficult to figure out.

Originally Posted by seasoned

It is IMPOSSIBLE to keep such records!

Ridiculous.

Originally Posted by seasoned

Do you REALLY think cops just want to kill blacks?

These are the kind of questions asked when people are more interested in throwing gas on the fire instead of seeking actual solutions.

Originally Posted by seasoned

There comes a time when the crime and average treatment have to be looked at BEFORE screaming RACIST.

The only way to genuinely look at "the crime and average treatment" is to have accurate records.

The only one screaming racist in your post or mine is you.

Steve, you should really learn how to respond rather than react.

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seasoned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midnight Oil

It isn't that difficult to figure out.

Apparently, it IS! You didn't even say CAUSED! You simply said related. Some of the examples I said may sound absurd, but listen to some lawyers sometime. They come up with some ABSURD theories, and sometimes they WIN! I mean things like paying a thief's hospital bills for injuries sustained in trying to rob you? Now THAT is ridiculous!

Ridiculous.

Until you can agree on WHAT should be counted, you can't count it!

These are the kind of questions asked when people are more interested in throwing gas on the fire instead of seeking actual solutions.

I wouldn't ask the question, except I have heard many say YES! Listen to the news sometime! And there are PLENTY of cases on youtube. Some even have HATE CHANNELS where it seems like that is ALL they speak about. It is even in "music"!

The only way to genuinely look at "the crime and average treatment" is to have accurate records.

Tracking REASONABLE criteria for ALL races! There WAS a time when things like what Gates had happen to him happened OFTEN with blacks, and for good reason! Interestingly, for that SAME reason, they now DON'T happen so often. And I have heard of it happening as often with whites as with blacks. WHY? Because there are enough blacks in those areas that it ISN'T out of line, and it was ALWAYS a reasonable request. But Gates just, at least SUPPOSEDLY, believed he was asked ONLY because he was black, and he was obstinate.

The only one screaming racist in your post or mine is you.

Well, the idea was implied in much of the thread, and so....

Steve, you should really learn how to respond rather than react.

I would like NOTHING better than to just ONCE have a reasonable conversation with such people. It is certainly NOT all blacks that feel that way, and I am FINE with those that will discuss it rationally, or ones where we can FORGET about our respective races. There really isn't any reason to be so at odds. HEY, I have gone to school with blacks, work with blacks, fly with blacks, and have done business with blacks. HAPPILY, the idea of races almost NEVER comes up.

Steve
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Karen Blundell

11 years ago

If it means that violence is lessened because of them, bring on the Dash Cams -
so quick fix? No, more like the best possible solution to getting to the heart of the matter despite the possibility that, yes, videos, just like any other evidence, can be tampered.

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Midnight Oil

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

I wouldn't ask the question, except

There is no "except."

You asked "Do you REALLY think cops just want to kill blacks?"

Is that what I posted? Is that close to anything I posted?

Whatever you think you're arguing is pinballing around in your own head and has nothing to do with what I posted.

Originally Posted by seasoned

Tracking REASONABLE criteria for ALL races!

I never mentioned race. You're the one arguing about it.

Originally Posted by seasoned

I would like NOTHING better than to just ONCE have a reasonable conversation with such people. It is certainly NOT all blacks that feel that way, and I am FINE with those that will discuss it rationally, or ones where we can FORGET about our respective races. There really isn't any reason to be so at odds. HEY, I have gone to school with blacks, work with blacks, fly with blacks, and have done business with blacks. HAPPILY, the idea of races almost NEVER comes up.

Again, you're the one arguing about race. I never mentioned it.

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Kay King

11 years ago

Tim - My point is - that link you posted is LYING about the killings.

That site "assumes" all of those killed in 2012 by police were black - and quotes that 288 were unnecessary use of force....but doesn't say where they get that "fact" or who made that determination.

So the claim on the site is that EVERY PERSON killed by police in 2012 was black, and that only 24 of those killings are excusable....and other sites are saying the same thing and referencing THAT site as "proof".

Why would any person believe that? Do you believe NO white people or Latinos or Asians were killed by police action in all of 2012? ONLY blacks were killed? Of course not - because it didn't happen. It's a LIE promoted by those who want to foster unrest and racial tension. Look who published those "facts"...

I'm all for dash cameras and body cams IF they are small enough not to pose a problem for those who wear them. I think they would keep more antagonistic cops in line but I also think the public might be surprised at what the cameras show when the entire encounters are recorded.

That incident could of been handled with an appearance ticket.

Thom - I agree about changing laws but how many citations for the same behavior do you issue to one person before you arrest him? This wasn't something new he was doing. His method of earning a living was breaking this law every day.

The store owner who complained has to sell cigs for $13-14/pack to make a profit after cost and taxes. This guy is selling loosies for $10 a pack because he isn't paying the $4+/pack in taxes. Of course the store owners complain. If the only consequence is a ticket or citation - store owners should stop paying taxes, too.

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Kay King

11 years ago

Tim -

I thinks it's a form of obfusacation -

The Report exposes how every 28 hours someone inside the United States, employed or protected by the U.S. government kills a Black child, woman or man...

and with only a line space goes on to say

They killed 313 in 2012, and 288 of these killings involved unnecessary excessive force. Only 10 police officers and 16 security guards/vigilantes were ever charged with a crime.

without mentioning we are now talking about all races.

then says

On the other hand, police, sheriffs, security guards and to a certain extent self-appointed enforcers of the law (vigilantes) ARE authorized by governments and paid for by taxes...

and that makes no sense. Vigilantes and self-appointed enforcers, security guards....are NOT public employees or authorized by the govt or paid with taxes. That is a LIE - because it allows the author to include more deaths than he could otherwise.

People who write stuff like this are trying to prove their own theories - they aren't out to solve a problem or to even identify if there is a real problem. They want to inflame opinions, raise objections, incite anger...and the LAST thing they want is for the problem to be solved.

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Joe Mobley

11 years ago

Let's see, where were we? Oh yea, dash cams.

Quick fix, probably not. Help in many situations, probably so.

Stop the sharpton-terrorist-group from rioting, burning, pillaging and plundering in the name of Jesus and MLK, I'm thinking not.

One thing I do predict is that personal body cams will be MORE prevalent than cell phones as prices come down and image quality goes up. Add some tracking features and a couple of apps and you're good to go.

Joe Mobley

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Kay King

11 years ago

Dash cams have been quite useful where they've been used consistently - I think body cams would be the same and I'm all for them. However, they would be less helpful in a scenarios where people are moving rapidly as in a takedown. If they were small enough to be incorporated into a hat or helmet that would be the best choice in my opinion.

I know from working 20 years with cameras trained on me - you forget about the cameras for the most part. But - if you think about violating a procedure, you remember the cameras are there. At the same time, if you think of violating a procedure or doing something wrong....your mind quickly reminds you there are cameras focused on you all the time.

The bonus for police and the public is the ability to capture and save any and all videos taken during a potentially problematic encounter. With body cams you have a video from differing perspectives and isolating the videos from an "event" quickly means no editing so they should stand up well in court.

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TimPhelan

11 years ago

"So the claim on the site is that EVERY PERSON killed by police in 2012 was black..."

Ridiculous. The report didn't say any such thing.

Kay, did you even bother to look at the report? Your responses indicate to me you didn't. I don't know, but if you are going to say someone is LYING and wrong it's a good ides to at least look at the report. It's pretty extensive at 130 pages, with names, hundreds of photos of the victims ( they all look to be black to me ), dates they died, circumstances of death, updates on what is happening in the cases regarding justice, if anything, etc... The author days it took her well over a year to put together!

By the way, the two quotes I used come from different pages. That's why I put the ... after the first.

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ThomM

11 years ago

Thom - I agree about changing laws but how many citations for the same behavior do you issue to one person before you arrest him? This wasn't something new he was doing. His method of earning a living was breaking this law every day.

The store owner who complained has to sell cigs for $13-14/pack to make a profit after cost and taxes. This guy is selling loosies for $10 a pack because he isn't paying the $4+/pack in taxes. Of course the store owners complain. If the only consequence is a ticket or citation - store owners should stop paying taxes, too.

NYS cig tax is $4.35 a pack plus NYC cig tax of $1.50 a pack totals out to $5.85 tax a pack not including the 8% sales tax.
That is what created the black market for loose cigs.
An appearance ticket still requires the person to appear in court and face the charge of selling illegal cigs and the fine or prison sentence if convicted. It's not a consequence for the alleged crime, but a non-violent approach to a non-violent offense as opposed to murdering someone while trying to arrest them. In the end they end up in the same place (court) facing the same charges.

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SteveJohnson

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

"So the claim on the site is that EVERY PERSON killed by police in 2012 was black..."

Ridiculous. The report didn't say any such thing.

Kay, did you even bother to look at the report? Your responses indicate to me you didn't. I don't know, but if you are going to say someone is LYING and wrong it's a good ides to at least look at the report. It's pretty extensive at 130 pages, with names, hundreds of photos of the victims ( they all look to be black to me ), dates they died, circumstances of death, updates on what is happening in the cases regarding justice, if anything, etc... The author days it took her well over a year to put together!

By the way, the two quotes I used come from different pages. That's why I put the ... after the first.

The 'report' is all about black people and is utter crap.

Did YOU read any of those circumstances or just look at the pictures?

'Excessive force':

Atkins arrived home in visibly drunk state and
held a gun to his head and said "boom".
Neighbors called police. When deputies arrived
they exchanged gunfire with Atkins

'Excessive force' because the suspect was trying to elude police, crashed, and was fatally injured (no report of whether people in the Jeep or truck he collided with were injured or killed):

Police responded to a report of a burglary and
spotted a car that matched the description. They
followed the car in their cruiser and by
helicopter. During the pursuit, McCoy collided
with a jeep and truck and crashed into a
telephone pole.

That's just two of what are probably a hundred or more farcical claims of 'excessive force'.

There are some believable examples of excessive force (judging from the descriptions), but whoever wrote this - and whoever promotes it - is pushing a leftist agenda that is perfectly illustrated by the quoted remarks a few posts before this one.

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TimPhelan

11 years ago

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

'Excessive force':...
That's just two of what are probably a hundred or more farcical claims of 'excessive force'.

You got the 1st one wrong. It was not considered excessive force to shoot the guy who shot at them.

I'm not saying this report is perfect or agree with all of it's methods. It does exist though, which is why I originally posted it's link.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

You got the 1st one wrong. It was not considered excessive force to shoot the guy who shot at them.

I'm not saying this report is perfect or agree with all of it's methods. It does exist though, which is why I originally posted it's link.

HEY, HERE is a nice thing to put up NEXT time!

TRIPLE LAYER CHOCOLATE-MARZIPAN CAKE RECIPE - Best Friends For Frosting

MARZIPAN! MMMM!

IT exists ALSO!

Steve

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Cali16 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

TRIPLE LAYER CHOCOLATE-MARZIPAN CAKE RECIPE - Best Friends For Frosting
Steve

Dang, Steve, now I'm salivating. Definitely saving that recipe!!

(Sorry to take things off topic, but had to comment on that post!)
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SteveJohnson

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

You got the 1st one wrong. It was not considered excessive force to shoot the guy who shot at them.

I'm not saying this report is perfect or agree with all of it's methods. It does exist though, which is why I originally posted it's link.

I certainly did get that one wrong, sorry.

BTW - just because I think the 'report' is trash doesn't mean I do not think there is a problem with LEO's excessive use of force. I do. I just don't think the root of the issue comes from "the perpetual war on Black
people or 'Operation Ghetto Storm'."

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Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

The store owner who complained has to sell cigs for $13-14/pack to make a profit after cost and taxes. This guy is selling loosies for $10 a pack because he isn't paying the $4+/pack in taxes. Of course the store owners complain. If the only consequence is a ticket or citation - store owners should stop paying taxes, too.

I know that this is true with FEDERAL taxes, and it likely is with state taxes as well, but the merchant doesn't really "pay" the taxes, the manufacturer does. So the tax is included in the price the merchant pays. Even if the could reimburse the merchant, he or she lost all that money for that period. Perhaps the government should pay them 120% of the tax for the cigarettes, and exempt them from future tax.

Eric Garner and Bad Laws - YouTube

Steve

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Midnight Oil

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

There is a report that people are quoting/misquoting:

Operation Ghetto Storm - Home

Much of the language in this report is very similar to the militiaspeak that some here warn about. Like one of those dangerous anti-government groups.

After more than three months of marathon internet searching, we are sure that the actual number is closer to one state-sanctioned killing of a Black person every 24 hours.

Defining "state sanctioned": The "state" includes all branches of government at the federal, state and local levels, as well as their law enforcement, and all other military agencies.

The facts presented in Operation Ghetto Storm: 2012 Annual Report on the Extrajudicial Killing of Black People present us with a deeper understanding of the utter disregard held for Black life within the United States. Operation Ghetto Storm is a window offering a cold, hard, and fact‐based view into the thinking and practice of a government and a society that will spare no cost to control the lives of Black people. What Operation Ghetto Storm reveals is that the practice of executing Black people without pretense of a trial, jury, or judge is an integral part of the government's current overall strategy of containing the Black community in a state of perpetual colonial subjugation and exploitation

This demonization of Black "targets" reinforces the insidious propaganda of the United States government and its supporters, that the United States is the most democratic and socially liberated country on Earth.

And the United States government's grand strategy of domestic containment and pacification via perpetual war shows no signs of either slowing down or coming to an end on its own accord any time soon. Extrajudicial killings are clearly an indispensible tool in the United States government's pacification pursuits.

Self‐defense in and of itself is not enough, however. We will not turn back "Operation Desert Storm" and the military machine that aims to keep Black and other oppressed people subordinate and contained, until we defeat and dismantle the systems of colonialism, national oppression, white supremacy, capitalism and imperialism. It is imperative that we build a broad and dynamic mass movement capable of transforming the system and building a new social order.

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seasoned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midnight Oil

Much of the language in this report is very similar to the militiaspeak that some here warn about. Like one of those dangerous anti-government groups.

Man, one part right at the beginning is LAUGHABLE!

"a perpetual war to invade, occupy and pacify Black communities"

PERPETUAL? <-Kind of disputes everything ELSE!
INVADE? <-Perhaps in the most superficial way, but that would be more a nuisance than to any end!
OCCUPY? <-WHEN? I mean it wouldn't be too hard to detect!
PACIFY? <-WHEN? I mean with the riots, they don't seem to be pacified!

Seriously! If the government wants to do this, they are doing it WRONG.

Steve
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pjgahagan

11 years ago

Not a fix. The only permanent solution would be to get rid of the media as a whole to stop sparking controversy. It seems like police are getting worse and worse.

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Midnight Oil 11 years ago

The other side of the badge. Stories and faces that never seem to draw the same attention in these police discussions. Just blips on the media's radar.

Agent Carlos Rivera-Vega, Puerto Rico Police Department, Puerto Rico
Agent Carlos Rivera-Vega succumbed to gunshot wounds sustained seven days earlier in an unprovoked attack while conducting an investigation.

Sergeant Cory Wride, Utah County Sheriff's Office, Utah
Sergeant Cory Wride was shot and killed from ambush while checking on what he believed was an abandoned vehicle

Deputy Sheriff Jonathan Scott Pine, Orange County Sheriff's Office, Florida
Deputy Sheriff Jonathan Pine was shot and killed while responding to reports of car break-ins in a gated community

Correctional Officer Amanda Baker, Scotts Bluff County Detention Center, Nebraska
Correctional Officer Amanda Baker succumbed to injuries sustained two days earlier when she was attacked by a 15-year-old inmate in the Scotts Bluff County Juvenile Detention Center.

Detective John Hobbs, Phoenix Police Department, Arizona
Detective John Hobbs was shot and killed as he and other members of the Fugitive Apprehension Team attempted to serve a felony warrant on a man who had recently been released from prison.

Agent Joaquín Correa-Ortega, Puerto Rico Police Department, Puerto Rico
Agent Joaquín Correa-Ortega was shot and killed while conducting an undercover arms purchase

Officer Jason Crisp, United States Department of Agriculture - Forest Service Law Enforcement and Investigations, U.S. Government
Officer Jason Crisp and his canine, Maros, were shot and killed in Burke County, North Carolina, while participating in the manhunt for a subject who had committed two murders.

Deputy Sheriff Ricky Del Fiorentino, Mendocino County Sheriff's Office, California
Deputy Sheriff Ricky Del Fiorentino was shot and killed while searching for a subject who had abducted two people in Oregon earlier in the day and then shot at a store owner near Leggett, California.

Police Officer Robert German, Windermere Police Department, Florida
Police Officer Robert German was shot and killed while investigating two suspicious people

Master-at-Arms Mark Mayo, United States Navy Security Forces, U.S. Government
Master-at-Arms 2nd Class Mark Mayo was shot and killed aboard the USS Mahan by a civilian who had boarded the ship while it was docked at Naval Station Norfolk's Pier 1.

Much, much more:
Law Enforcement Line of Duty Deaths in 2014
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seasoned

11 years ago

Heysal,

I would be the FIRST to complain about cops, etc... I HAVE, and have HERE! And I think the cops have SERIOUS problems! I was once stopped, for NO reason, at 1:30am, and accidentally got out of my car. The police officer almost shot me, and SAID SO! IMAGINE if I had been walking towards him, etc.... After trying to confuse me, claiming that I was lying and a road that I had gone down for months didn't exist there, and saying I was almost shot, he let me go NO warning, ticket, or any statement or claim. He just stopped me for NO reason!

Another time, I found a cop behind me that wanted me to pull over. That was IMPOSSIBLE! It would have meant a crash, and potentially being killed. I had to go several blocks, and FINALLY managed to pull into a PRIVATE driveway. The jerk COP actually had the AUDACITY to say that next time I shouldn't pull into a private driveway. I only did it to avoid who knows what. Had I not done that, where could I stop? It was RUSH HOUR, a SMALL STREET, and everyone just wanted to get somewhere. If I stopped, I would have been rear ended, I couldn't pull over and, if I had, I had no place to park.

HECK, ONE guy picked me out of HUNDREDS of cars to give me a ticket for speeding. Before he left, he said I should make sure I am going the speed of the traffic before pulling out! In other words, he was saying I should KEEP going over the speed limit!!!!!!

HECK, a police officer stopped me like 2 years ago saying that they had a BOLO for my license plate! The car was different, and the driver was said to be hispanic, and I had my paperwork, so he let me go.

Once, a policeman HARASSED my mother, while she was like 1/4 conscious and literally NEAR DEATH(She was in an ambulance to get taken care of because of SEVERE injuries), and apparently EVEN in the ambulance, to try to brainwash her to believe a lie, and he also lied on his report.

One policeman, when I was possibly dying, threatened to arrest me, and tow me car away because I didn't have my current registration papers, and insurance card! I was the one rear ended! Luckily, I got fed up and realized this was NOT the 1960s!!!!!!! I told him "JUST CHECK YOUR COMPUTER! My registration and insurance should be THERE!:"! He was SNIDE about it, and said "MAYBE I ****WILL****!". Luckily he did, and let me go, and I went to the hospital to get checked out.

So some cops are just BAD! Realize, I ALWAYS tried to make it clear I tried, and was always respectful. ALSO, these are only the BAD ones. There was the cop that took me to get gas without being asked, the ones that just gave little warnings, the ones that told me about my mothers condition when she had alzheimers, etc... So sometimes they ARE very nice, even going out of their way to do things few bother to do.

There are cameras all over, but MOST are to track VEHICLES and people at ATMs, private property, and the like. So they may not catch things like police interactions. And I doubt the police will look that hard. They may need subpoenas, etc...

I am ALL FOR police officers having cameras on themselves. I hope they have a long lasting LIPOpowersupply with a solar and inductive charger so they won't even have to bother charging them and may even forget they have such a device. They can certainly be time indexed and have an automated download so that, if 10 years later, they are accused of something, it can be pulled up to show WHAT happened. Made for a purpose like this, it could maybe be done for less than $200 per.

There ARE now some commercial 2 way dash cameras for consumers. Currently, I am on an austerity kick, but I plan to get one. They would only cover the cabin, the front of the car, and maybe the back, but it could be a help. If wilson had something like that, it could have caught the sounds and video of the guns use in the car. Just THAT could have been enough to exonerate him.

Steve

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Joe Mobley

11 years ago

Let me ask for some clarification, a quick fix for what?

Joe Mobley

Originally Posted by Tariqsal

Are dash cams really a quick fix? - CNN.com Video

I just watched this video on CNN and curious to know what your opinions are. I know one thing for sure, it will be expensive to implement.

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seasoned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

Let me ask for some clarification, a quick fix for what?

Joe Mobley

I think they think that it is quick to do. It ISN'T! They have to get the funding, if they don't have it, and they have to determine what they need, and what is the best standard. THAT can take a long time. THEN, they have to send out an RFP. THEN, they have to validate all the responses and some IDIOTIC laws actually MANDATE that they THROW OUT some GOOD proposals. You can't just buy them, because of all the requirements. You may end up paying a higher price. More of it may be due from the PD. It may not be useful or standard.

Steve
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HeySal

11 years ago

The only cop I ever had a problem with in my life was a Nevada cop. Nevada is generally one of the most corrupt little cesspools I've ever personally lived in. It's why I hesitate to go back even though I somewhat want to. I know one too many people who have had real bad experiences with the cops in that state.

It's true that Americans are becoming more violent - the Gov agencie's "crack down" on everything and anything, it's going to make it worse instead of better. BLM is considered a terrorist group in my crowd. They're even harassing people on their own claims now. All that paperwork and money to stake a claim and the BLM walks up and arrests people for trespassing. It's really getting out of control.

There's still a lot of good cops around. They are, in general becoming dangerous, though. They are killing for no good reason and getting off without even much of a slap on the wrists when they beat and kill unjustly and that breeds abuse.

Who would you hurt if there were no law against it? Really. Don't say nobody. While a few of you might mean it, a few of you would be lying to yourselves. Really think about who. Factory farmer? I'd level every one of them if I knew I could do it with the blessings of the police departments. There's nothing in this world I hate more than an animal abuser. Nothing. Now - figure what your local cop has to deal with day in and day out -- then ask who would he really like to get rid of. I'd put 5 on the table right now saying they would probably have at least a short list.

That's your local cops. Now get one of those militia trained cops in who are taught not even to think about our rights. Or the psychopath who gets his badge solely to stroke his ego and give him a way to abuse without repercussion.

Police in the US are being trained solely to reinforce laws. They aren't taught to serve and protect you at all now. I think that went in around 2005. Everything changed after 9/11 and those that don't understand that need to do some catching up.

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Kay King

11 years ago

Still - you think that's okay and seem to believe that all of those people were criminals so it was just fine and dandy to kill them?

You think it's OK to make up things I didn't say? Do you believe all those people were innocent victims of brutal cops?

I said - when you consider the tens of thousands of arrests being conducted in this entire country....that number of deaths doesn't seem excessive.

I didn't say it was fine and dandy to kill them - but remember those stats include people killed while robbing stores or shooting people in schools or businesses - people killed who were holding hostages - people killed who were harming other people or fleeing police or resisting arrest.

Do you truly believe the police could avoid all death and still keep dangerous people off the streets? What would YOU do if someone resisted arrest?

Cops were using tasers but the same people complaining now about people being shot with guns were complaining about tasers back then. If cops use nightsticks they are charged with brutal beatings. That's why they went to tasers but that wasn't good enough either. Truth is, either a nightstick or a taser is less deadly than a bullet - and the people complaining over the years didn't think that part through. A taser can be just as deadly to someone with a bad heart and severe asthma.

Should the police just back off and walk away if someone doesn't want to submit to an arrest or refuses to do what the police ask? Is that a solution?

There are mitigating factors. People who die while committing crimes or while resisting arrest play a part in their own demise. If the cops are wrong about your activity - you can argue it later, you can sue them later. But you don't fight with them when they approach you or you put yourself at risk.

It's still sad that people have to die - but it's real life. People who commit crimes or resist arrest are more likely to die at the hands of police than people who don't commit crimes or resist arrest.

Police in the US are being trained solely to reinforce laws. They aren't taught to serve and protect you at all now.

You think those are exclusive? I AM protected and served by police officers who arrest robbers, rapists, killers, drunk drivers, child molesters....

Cops aren't "reinforcing laws" - they are enforcing them. Some cops are over eager to get physical but for the most part they are enforcing laws people WE elected have passed.

There's still a lot of good cops around. They are, in general becoming dangerous, though. They are killing for no good reason and getting off without even much of a slap on the wrists when they beat and kill unjustly and that breeds abuse.

Unjustly? So what should the cops do when someone resists arrest - or robs a convenience store - or breaks the law? Just say "Ok, sorry..." and walk away?

If you let people do what they want and only enforce laws you personally agree with - how does that protect business people and home owners from those who would victimize them?

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seasoned

11 years ago

BTW if they want to REALLY PACIFY the blacks, and get rid of the ghettos, they can get rid of the teachers that spread propaganda and all and replace them with ones that teach meaningful things!

BAM!

1.SCORES GO UP!
2. POVERTY CAN GO DOWN!
3. THE GHETTO CAN GET CLEANED UP!
4. MORE BLACKS WOULD BE HAPPIER!
5. LESS RACISM!

SIMPLE! NO SHOTS! NO POLICE! NO BULLETS! NO EXPENSE! Too bad it may never be done!

Steve

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Will Dash Cams Be A Quick Fix?

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