What is Genius?

Genius is the ability to quick
solve problems..if we have
good long term memory
doesnt mean that we are genius..

Normally genius people use
left brain and goods in mathematics
and science...

Dont you think so?

Well I read that if we went back in time and took an intelligence test from Abraham Lincoln's time we would all score very low. Of course there is always some sort of bias, but in this example I would classify it more as relevance.

I have also seen intelligence tests that use symbols and made up words. "If a gleem has 42 zembos and 6 cornats make half a zembo, and a blesho always has three times as much as a gleem..."

It is my understanding that MENSA requires its members to score at a certain level on at least two separate tests. Only certain tests qualify.

A few years ago I almost went through with joining, but decided I didn't need a membership card to prove anything - one way or the other. I'm as smart as I am - a genius at some things and a blithering idiot at many others; aren't we all?

Your criteria seem relatively sound. What ultimately counts though is something that few tests can accurately measure: the ability to APPLY said genius in real-life situations.

All the best,
Michael

What about 'idiot savants'?

Certainly they would not meet most of the criteria you have, yet in one area - be it for example, musical or mathematical, they are geniuses.

Yes I do feel extreme artistic talent qualifies as true genius, and they also may be sans most of the criteria cited here.

I think that a true genius would be a visionary - yet could possibly be unable to execute what they see or know; they can still 'see' what 'average' people would never even dream.

I think a true genius could have a 'sixth sense' and no other manifestation whatsoever.

Remember even monkeys can be trained, so I don't really feel it has that much to do with what people are able to learn or memorize.

I think genius is something that they are born with - whereas 'IQ' would be a combination of congenital and learned 'intelligence' or abilities.

Part of me also believes that someone can't be truly intelligent and be a pig at the same time. In other words if they have real mental intelligence they would also be 'sensitive', have spiritual awareness and 'emotional IQ'.

On the other hand these gifts could be what is missing for them, just as the idiot savant has missing pieces. dunno.

I saw a show about a Mensa chemist that poisoned several people purposely, killing them. (I forget what you call people who think they are better than everyone else and felt his victims were low lifes that didn't deserve to live on the same planet (his neighbor's children, who were noisy, for example).

No doubt he had a high IQ, but is obviously quite insane and just another Bubbah sitting in prison for the rest of his life. (naturally he probably thinks he is being persecuted because he is so smart).

So as with most things, I do not believe there are absolutes about what makes a genius a genius...

Research on IQ and career or profession shows artists as a group have higher IQ's than scientists, leaders, etc.

Research also shows that the higher the IQ the higher the income and lower the incidence of illness.

Genius on testing requires consistent attainment of IQ levels of 140 and over. The criteria that you need for these are nominally logical process. Logical process allows the person to glean the answer of anything that s/he doesn't already know or could not deduce in the allotted amount of time.

My IQ has been tested as extreme high - and there are a few subjects in which when outlining or debating I can rip just about anyone a new one. However - that isn't all subjects. There are a few subjects that I would consider myself extreme low in IQ. Some are low because I just don't care enough about them to learn about, others I definitely just don't have any neuron synopsis set for them for some reason.

Now that is deductive IQ. In Inductive IQ, the person would be a right brain genius. The actual level of IQ pertaining to the right brain cannot be measured. Thus you have someone such as Mozart (just an example, I have no idea of his deductive IQ) who might perform horribly on the average IQ test, yet performing light years beyond others in the field of music composition. The only way we can judge the right brained genius is by extraordinary accomplishment or dictoms.

There are ways to spot geniuses, both left and right brainers.

One of the means to spot a genius is lack of language restriction. Words are innate symbols for ideas and restrictions in vocabulary are a dead give-away of restrictions of IQ in any given field. The more restricted the vocabulary at the complex abstract idea levels more generally restricted the general IQ. Highly intense knowledge of the formal register (terminology) of one or two left-brained fields does not a genius make.
General left-brained geniuses can also be mistaken for stupid because their conversational skills can veer quite wildly from the norm. The most aggravating of those deviations is in the frame/insert construction of conversation. Severe level mathematicians can quite simply be a bitch to try to converse with (MW - yes you know I am talking to you ).

People can also mistake someone who is extremely knowledgeable in their field as being geniuses when most of what they know may be memorized material. As someone already pointed out - high levels of memorization does not insure genius, however, all geniuses do have exceptional long term memory - most have unusually high levels of short term memory as well, often going beyond the average 7 bits.

One of the most common social phenomena is that of which the genius is usually scorned by society because they do not conform to social norms unless they deem them logical and necessary. Most social norms are merely induced into populations for control and are more readily adapted by those with average or below IQs because they are unable to deduce the difference in logical and illogical mandates. Because herd instinct is stronger in those who are not able to think on high level abstract planes -- the genius gets outcast for deviant behavior very often.

Fact of interest -- America's Government run school systems with their high level of focus on socializing, high enough often to forgo teaching in favor of socializing, blows more geniuses out of the schools than any other nation in the world.

Almost, we got almost all the way through one post without it happening. Oh well, I guess even geniuses can be void of original thought.

Ok, prove it. Show me the data or retract the statement.



Even if it is true, the question is why. Maybe it's because we have mandatory education longer than most other countries. Maybe it's because we have more students in the first place. There are all kinds of other reasons besides BIG BAD GOVERNMENT! (And that's only assuming that statement is true, though I can't see how it could be objectively quantified).

I just wanted to add the Malcom Gladwell's book Outliers covers genius. Ultimately, being smart over a certain level does not impart any additional benefit. In short, you just need to be smart enough, not super-smart.

All the best,
Michael

You're a genius, Michael - go find it or figure it out yourself. LOL.

Okay - actually the figures I have are from 2003
20% of high school dropouts are gifted
Michael S. Matthews
The University of North Carolina at Charlotte, Raleigh, NC
In his research analysis:
Gifted Learners Who Drop Out: Prevalence and Prevention

I think it is sick that we are spending millions and billions teaching
kids with mental disabilities yet are not giving as much as spit to save
the education of our nation's gifted kids.
My father was a school administrator and attempted to bring in a few techniques that the Soviets were having much luck with - and he was disallowed to do so. This very subject is why I refuse to go into teaching.

And Michael - I'll retract something when I damned well please to retract it so you can just run to Allen and cry if you think I have to do ANYTHING because YOU order me to.
You are not the Warden and I am NOT an inmate so I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from your bullying methods and discontinue speaking to me as if I were a naughty child. It does not behoove your claim of intellect to do so.

Your humor didn't come across Michael. The smilie was a nice addition. You're forgiven All is good. I don't always HAVE links - online isn't the only place I get my info and I don't always take notes on where it came from so actually having to cite credentials just to make a statement in a forum gets me riled sometimes.

I don't think it's wrong to spend for special ed - I just think it's a furious waste to NOT spend as liberally for gifted kids. I've seen tons of money sunk into the education of some students who are so severely disabled that they will never live independently - yet the little genius gets stuck with the mainstream. It's like putting someone with a 170 IQ at McDonalds and expecting them to love the job.

My roommate has an exceptionally bright 7 year old and she's getting bombed right out of school herself right now. I showed her agates the other day (she's a geology enthusiast in the making) and I had to go all the way into how silicas react to different factors to produce the difference between quartz, agate, opal, etc. In school she is reading "The little Red Hen" because some of her classmates just aren't all there after first grade. Give it a break. She's becoming bored by reading because of it.

I'm doing all I can to make sure this little one doesn't get blown out of the water. I just turned her on to 1984, which incidentally, is now banned in the public schools. She's struggling a bit with it, but she's interested enough to keep reading regardless. Little Red Hen didn't have that effect on her. She remembered it from having it read to her in kindergarten.

It doesn't matter that we have excellent teachers if they aren't allowed to teach in a fashion that is conducive to creating interest and challenge and right now the systems are becoming very concerned about developing opinions that are what the gov wants kids to think instead of about teaching. They are giving them much propaganda about how good it is to line up and get their flu vaccines right now and my roommate is scared out of her mind after the reaction she had to the last one. She's been in conference twice now because her teachers are teaching the kids that it is selfish and wrong not to get a vaccine when Uncle Sam tells them to. What the hell kind of education is that? What about another woman I know who has a gifted kid who gets bored in class and becomes disruptive......so the teacher advised (not a doctor - a TEACHER) that the kid be put on psychological drugs. The woman did so for a week and came home from work to find the kid literally drooling in front of the TV - now she's in court to get a reversal on the schools mandate of drugs when all they had to do is give him lessons advanced enough to keep him busy.

All is not well with education in America - and if you don't believe it walk the street some time and ask grads of any high school or some college students some very simple questions about geography, history, science, etc. and prepare to be astounded by the lack of knowledge you will encounter.

Abraham Lincoln couldn't take an IQ test today. He's dead.

Just thought I'd point out the obvious.

Hey Sal,

Your post is spot on, and one I can relate to directly.

Glad to see you're helping the youngster stay interested in learning.

Believe me, you are all too correct in your last paragraph. It really is sad. Even the most basic things. For example, ask someone to name as few as three countries in Africa, or even to name the continents - you'll be surprised at how many can't.

~M~

It's funny how a discussion on "genius" turns into a discussion about the "poor" education system of the US. Granted, it has its faults, but in the sake of honesty, it should also be noted the US system produces more Nobel prize winners than any other. It can't be all bad.

The US also seems to have the best university system in the World. It's our schools teaching the engineers of India, China and Russia and our schools were the World wants to come to get a higher education, more so than any other country.

I also believe "speed of thought" is an important part of intelligence, which no one else discussed. It's one thing to be a chess master and take your time, but try being Alexander the Great on the actual battlefield, making decisions and plotting strategies, and in an instant, changing those strategies. All under the duress of life and death.

Also, memory has been discounted here. I believe memory is one part of intelligence. And the speed of recall is a big factor, to me. Take the game show Jeopardy, three contestants may know the answer, but the one that consistently comes up with the answer the fastest, has a huge advantage, and I would say is the more intelligent.

No one else mentioned art and whether a genius can be creative, like a Mozart or Picasso.

I do think IQ is related to genius, as those with high IQs are associated with being a genius. However, how do you make an IQ test that is accurate and without bias? IMO, a true IQ test would give the same expectation of success to all people, if they are highly educated, from a tribe in New Guinea, a Polish farmer, etc.

In reality, it seems genius is when very high intellect meets opportunity.

So, because you don't like Picasso he couldn't be a genius?

I'm not saying he was or wasn't.

But what your comment seems to be saying is that only people you like can be geniuses.

Now THAT'S a test I don't think I could pass.



~M~

Hey Steve. I knew precisely what you meant. Just having a little fun is all.

Measuring intellegence is difficult because it has to be defined first, and defined objectively. That's where the problems begin.

Ultimately, intelligence as a thing doesn't matter so much. It's effectiveness in a given situation. Of course, some intelligence tests try to measure problem solving, but, again, they fall short because they are not testing it in the real world.

On the other hand, if my brother-in-law and I took an intelligence test, I have no doubt whatsoever as to who would score lower.



~M~

kurt:

The word genius is that it is very difficult to define, if we use your suggested criteria:


In my view genius is about looking at the tiny details and finding connections between them others cannot see. It is bring unity and coherence to a concept and finding insights. It is the ability to understand the interplay and relationships beteew facts and concepts that others have not seen or understood: a new discovery in science, i.e the discovery of DNA, creating an original piece of music or art etc At the extreme Newton did this and Einstein did this.

Your mention of Einstein reminded me of this billboard...

http://www.values.com/images/billboa...tein_14x48.jpg

Genius in everyday usage is what people perceive to have value. I've known people who are math whizzes and seemed stupid in just about everything else. There are many forms of intelligence but most don't get the popular vote for having any real value.

Genius is really nothing more than the abiliity to look at a things from a completely different perspective than others around you.

Yes, some schools are rotten. I went to some of them and dropped out real early. However, just because a school is public doesn't mean it can't bend the rules coming down from on high. Last year, in kindergarten, my favorite little grand daughter was learning algebra, geometry and biology. This is a big public school.
When 4 of my children were all in a tiny little public school I went to the first meeting that came up. The teachers were asking for a 20% raise. They pointed out that they weren't quite at the bottom of the wage spectrum, but they were pretty close. I remembered everything that had been shown to me in the tour.. and when the man next to me suggested a 100% raise was more in line with the quality of teachers we had I seconded the motion. A vote was put to the community and the measure was approved with overwhelming support. My kids graduated from there ready to tear up anything in front of them. One daughter became one of the best programmers in the U.S. The second daughter scooped 1st and 3rd place for journalist in her state in one year. The next year she won so many awards for the little paper she wrote for that the state's only daily refused to mention the event. The 3rd daughter is gifted in mathematics, but had boy problems. My son had his choice of colleges for architecture but chose bricklaying for his career. He's never looked back, so why should I?
There were dozens of others from that tiny school that went out ready and capable of great things.
Schools are a reflection of the community's core, the ones that care.
What is genius? Genius is the ability to see the obvious and connect it in ways that aren't so obvious. For example, there was a community in Utah that had been promised a temple. They waited, and finally decided that if they were going to have a temple they would have to build it themselves. They were able to find local volunteers with talent for everything, except the roof. No one there knew how to make a roof for a structure of that size. Finally a small ward was assigned to build the roof. In that ward was a group of shipbuilders, recently immigrated. "Can you build a roof?" No, no way. We are shipbuilders.
So the walls kept going up and the need for a roof became crucial. The Bishop came back to the shipbuilders. "Please, build us a roof."
They sat for hours, pondering how to build a roof. Finally a man stood up and said: "We are shipbuilders; we cannot build a roof. But we can build a ship. Let us build a ship, and turn it upside down. When we lift it into place that will be our roof."
Genius sees the obvious, and applies it.

What is intelligence ? - mental functional ability

genius ? - mental functional ability above a predefined level

What determines functionality ? - adaptation to the environment

Gosh, YES. I got a world class education at Rutgers that I'd put up against Princeton any day...and that was because I proactively sought out my professors to learn.