Just horrific :(

It's hard when it hits that close to home.

Im having a hard time understanding this. Where I live in WV... you cant just walk into a school - with "possibly" a rifle no less. and when I say you cant just walk in... Im talking 2 doors you have to be buzzed through to actually get in.

and no security officer?

Every day ( recently ) I am reminded to how fortunate I am to live where I do.

We are seeing parents taking on school boards - for the first time in a long time parents are re-engaging with their kids' education.

This is something parents can do wherever they live - find out what precautions and security your child's school has - and whether they use it to keep students safe. School officials who know parents are watching are unlikely to cut corners to save time or effort.

Many small schools can't afford a full time security officer - but cameras and locks are cheap....the staff time needed to vet everyone entering the building is cheap....at least when you consider the value of a child's life.


Sadly, it took only a few hours for some politicians to start calling for gun control...why not call for school safety procedures?

I hate it when things like this happen. It's awful and there is no excuse for it.

However, the more hardened part of me asks these questions:

Where are all the impassioned speeches by presidents and senators every weekend when kids are shot, 2-3-4-5-6 at a time in Chicago, NY, LA, or elsewhere neighborhoods?
Where is the outrage on Fox, NBC, and CNN when those happen?
Where are the bios and pictures of the perps in those cases?
Where is the anger and grief for those children who are the same as the children that died today?
Or is it again a problem of selective outrage? We run news stories that advance the narrative.

Seriously, if you (not you Robert) love children and want to protect them, there are a lot more of them dying at the hands of gang bangers, unhinged parents, etc. than in these shootings.

Either get sick of all of it and tear it all down to fix it but don't pick and choose what you get mad about. A child's life is a child's life, and it doesn't matter if it's a rich white kid or a poor black child or an immigrant or whoever else. Children are innocent at those early ages. They never hurt anybody. Let's get outraged about it all.

Rant over for now.
Mark

No, it is not selective outrage. I see a lot of anger over children shot in the cities. Often the anger is that the killer is out on bail for other crimes or was paroled early, etc. We don't know this kiiller's background yet but i doubt this is the first sign of trouble from him.

There is a greater shock, I think, when someone invades a school where you assume children are not at risk. The count in Texas now is 19 children, grades 2-4....and 2 adults.

These were not stray bullets or crossfire a child was caught in - these children were targeted and there is something so evil about that.

We react because that's all we can do....any family who loses a child is in a world of hurt.

Yes, it's more shocking. Of course. All I'm trying to say is let's get shocked about all the deaths of children. Use the shock to create change across the board--in schools and neighborhoods-whatever that looks like. I'm not trying to distract from or diminish this horrific event in any way. These people truly are evil who kill innocent little children.

Mark

Does anyone know what happened to the two missing girls yet? Did they run away in fear? Is there rubble or places in the school where they could be? This just seems like a strange mystery. Normally, in shootings, people are accounted for pretty quickly. I haven't watched the news yet this afternoon so I may have missed something.

Mark

In Texas just a few weeks ago, a young girl was taken from a FB game and sex trafficked. That is a crime of opportunity and that worries me about those girls.

Not wanting to get political...

but it seems we can't talk out problems anymore because each side has dug into their bunkers and are willing to fight for their beliefs without compromise.

We have got to be able to work together.

A lot of things I don't agree with...but I'm willing to negotiate to find common ground...seems we've lost that ability.

We've become too entrenched in our beliefs to negotiate...

It is not going to happen - 'never let a good crisis go to waste' is a reality now.

PEOPLE have to ignore the roar of politics and get together to solve some of the problems.

What if schools had locked door policies that were clearly outlined and required to be used every single day....what if failing to follow the policies meant the school administration and the school board could be held liable?

Sometimes you have to put teeth into a law or a procedure in order for people to take it seriously.

What would have happened in TX had the door been locked - with a security camera installed that activated when someone approached the door? We don't need a nuclear option to kill an ant - we just need to keep the ant away from us.


edit: Something I didn't know. There is a fed law that if background check to buy a gun takes longer than 3 days....the dealer can go ahead and sell the gun. How does that make sense? A background check taking longer would seem to indicate a problem...

TX doesn't have any waiting period to buy a gun - and that should change. The two guns were purchased days before this shooting. That an 18 yr old could purchase two high power guns 2 days apart with no flag being raised....doesn't make sense. He also bought a large quantity of ammunition with no flags raised.

I would think the waiting period is critical....10 days or even 2 weeks....time to reconsider, time to calm down, time for something else to grab your attention...time to think. Doctors tell you if you can keep someone from committing suicide for 24 hrs they are unlikely to go ahead with it. Why wouldn't a waiting period act as a cooling off period?

Background checks used to take days - now most take minutes and that's not really a good thing. Banning guns is not the answer - making it more difficult to qualify to BUY a gun makes a lot more sense.

This its realy horific when this things happen ,you remain with no words when you heard about an event like this

It's terrible, can't believe it's happening so often

This is not a cry to ban guns.

As far as I know, guns were advocated here in the US as a right in case the people did not favor the fledgling government that was formed so they could overthrow it. Question, is this state of affairs still relevant these days? Perhaps some would say yes, but would the people ever do it?

The minimum age to own a handgun is 18 but in 30 states, kids can still own a rifle or a shotgun, IE, a long gun!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...fe-or-shotgun/

So, it would help if you took that away methinks. On top of that, the ownership of a gun should be raised to 21. My reasoning is that an 18 year old brain is far mushier than a 21 year old one. Adolescent idealism, instability and fanaticism is going to be more the state of affairs in an 18 year old brain. A 21 year old one is at least a bit more stable.

So, I'm not saying ban them, just be sensible about the minimum age to own one, it would reduce crime and these shootings significantly.

Rather that than ask all schools to turn themselves into Fort Knox with armed security guards, many can ill afford them. And stop saying things like "Arm The Teachers" as somebody revoiced when it happened. They are just teachers, not vigilantes.

Guns, other than personal weapons should be stored in lockable metal box when not in use so people under whatever the legal age will be, cannot readily get their hands on them. I would say that should be a legal requirement to buy one as well.

The craziest thing is when we start talking about laws. Yesterday a person in congress got very angry, and one of the things he said was something like, "when are we going to have a law to stop these killings?"

There is already a law against killing innocent people. Are the crooks following it?

Take away the AR-15. That'll solve the problem. That's always the issue according to one side. Okay, so a shotgun could be used or even a handgun by a thug.

Banning the bump stocks was supposed to do a big part of stopping it. No.

Nobody needs more than 10 round magazines. That'll solve it. Okay. So, if you have 10 bullets how many apples can you shoot with those bullets?

Turn in your guns. Sure. I'll turn mine in so only the thugs who don't have any morals and won't follow the law and use guns to commit crimes have them. Yep, sign me up to be the sitting duck.

Posts on FB about COVID or against vaccines or in support of certain movements or politicians can be shot down quickly and many are never seen. But this guy can write these three statements about 30 minutes before the killing and FB does nothing. If you are going to censor posts, FB/Instagram/Twitter, spend more time censoring ones like this instead of the ones you don't like politically.

There has to be a balance. For example, one of the people crying loudest about the need for change introduced a bill in July 2020 to take cops out of schools and replace them with counselors because of racism when everyone was trying to prove which side of the riots they were on. Racism is awful. Killings are awful. Cops can prevent crime. Counselors can help prevent crime. Some cops are racists. Some counselors are racist. But at the end of the day when the bad guys are hunting someone down, they normally call the cops for protection not their therapist.

And many of those yelling for change have done everything they can to hamstring the border patrol. Yet it's the border patrol that was able to go in and take the shooter out. If not for them, there may be more children dead.

Want change? We need a balance and some sense of shared priorities. We need honest negotiations based on principles we're willing to stick with and not be changing every four years along with the resident of the WH. We need mutual respect and decency. If there is going to be change, there is only one way to do it in my opinion. Not as elephants or donkeys but as Americans. It's times like this which can bring us together, but the hateful rhetoric is at full blast. And that's why, I'm afraid, there will be NO real change.

Mark

There are some aspects of this that have been shared that are more... more... more... over inflated fiction?

If we pay attention to the details we have the weapon used was an AR-15 "LONG" rifle. So what exactly is that? we are all familiar with the term .22? ok so no body here would have an issue with kids under 18 having a .22 correct... an AR-15 and a .22? SAME THING.

Even that statement is not the whole truth... so the most available AR-15 styled piece you can buy in large chain stores etc is .223 caliber ( IE .22 ) These specifically would not be considered "High Powered"

If you look at the time line of this particular situation... the young man had a prior felony charge. He purchased the items 2 days after his 18th birthday, and 2 days prior to the incident. There was no waiting period on the purchase of the item, because it is a "Long" item. Every State is a bit different but i believe my 13 yr old son could go in and buy this item.

Things get interesting in the details. At 18 you become an adult - you can vote... you also have your prior 17 years of criminal record - removed as it were. His "Felony" prior to turning the age of 18 would not show up on the minimal check for such things would not show up when he went to purchase the item.

The question then becomes where do you draw the line... if you look to the past, you will see that the argument of "Semi-Automatic" was a thing... The 6 shot revolver pistols from the wild west are/were "Semi Automatic" weapons... It was basically an attempt to ban all items... it didnt fly... so now the narrative has shifted to "Assault" items. Which begs the question.. what exactly is an assault item?

No one seems to have an issue with buying a 6 shot shotgun or a cartridge shotgun for that matter... or say a 30-30 or 30-6 - those are for "hunting" all 3 of those are far more powerful weapons than the .223 ar-15.

I believe most of us in this discussion are of a more mature age... we have seen news footage of police forcing their way into a building, or the troops in Afghanistan. What is most often carried in these situations?

And before I answer that... Ask any young person that plays video games what the weapon of choice is in close combat quarters.

The answer here kids is a shotgun. As warped as this is going to sound we are in a way BLESSED these crazy people are using AR-15's with .223 rounds. Imagine a hallway full of kids and a shotgun shell with 100 pieces of led per shot - it doesnt paint a pretty picture.

The cry to ban "Assault Weapons" is as Mark points out yet another empty solution to a problem... at this point an assault weapon is what? a Gun that looks like... but you can buy an uncool version that just looks like a regular gun - in terms of ability there is no difference.

Clips... this kid was in this school before the situation was brought to an end for 1.5 hours... 5 shots per mag or 20 - would it have mattered?

Here is an interesting question... we know 19 kids and 2 adults were killed... how many were injured? ( EDIT: just read 17were injured ) It will be interesting to see how many casings were found?

And to really throw this conversation into an uncomfortable place... the school was actually a "Modern" school with all of the bells and whistles I was speaking of last night... there came a time when the school was "Locked down". This young man did not "barricade" himself in a room... he was locked in... and I want you to think about that scenario for a moment. Locked in a class room...

My heart goes out to the person that ultimately made that decision to lock the facility down - and lock the young man in a room with what we can only presume was a room with kids and a teacher in it - We will never know THAT truth.

A very sad day - will be a frustrating few weeks as the information of the incident is released to hide an aspect of the truth ( and probably rightfully so ) and also to move forward a narrative of yet another non working solution.

I personally can only think of 2 govt funded public facilities that dont have an armed presence... Libraries and Schools. $10 says the Board of Education building has armed security..I know ours does.

I dont know what the answer is... but I am pretty sure of a current right now solution.

With all of the rules in place, this kid side stepped them. The whole must be 21 argument is really null and void - the only reason this is an option is based on the mis-information based narrative of "Assault Weapons"

If you look at the Buffalo incident... and if you have read the very left leaning manifesto ( thats right kids the young man was not a right wing extreme white supremisist... ) He chose that specific target because of the amount of gun control - "Data" would show that the probably more effective solutions falls towards the opposite of restriction, and more towards the allowance of ownership with a better check prior to purchase.

ALL weapons should have a waiting period - for as long as it takes. A gun purchase should include your entire record and not just your adult record. THIS would be a god start.

My family owns a lot of guns including about a dozen AR-15s - and not one of those guns has harmed or threatened anyone. We need purchase limits - waiting periods and perhaps other gun laws....and to enforce laws we have...but that doesn't solve the problem.

An 18 yr can buy a gun because an 18 yr old can join the military and carry a gun. That is the reasoning...and it makes sense. Most of these shooters are under 18.

A military vet suggested arming SOME teachers and it was not a bad idea...but in a case like this there was no time to retrieve a weapon that would have been locked up for safety.

This person was able to walk through an unlocked door....and then walk into an unlocked classroom, close that door and start shooting.

Keeping doors locked is a necessity - even when there is a security guard as there was here. PREVENT ACCESS is the first step and too many schools are not doing that. It's a pain to have to unlock a door - it's time consuming to have to identify every vendor or visitor asking for entry.

I called two friends yesterday - both teachers - to ask how their schools handle security. For both of those schools - one large and modern - the other small and old - doors are 'monitored' when students enter in the morning. Every door has a teacher or admin to welcome students and watch for problems.

It was interesting to learn the larger school has a lot of protocols but they aren't always followed. Two security guards and yet there is often no security guard at the one door left open during school hours. The reason - there are other things they can be doing - and it's too time consuming for office personnel to help with door duty. That's a decision that could come back to haunt you.

The little school was different - in a town of 900+ people - the school takes security as part of the daily grind. NO door is left unlocked when students are in the building....NO one - parent or vendor or anyone - is allowed to come into the building without showing ID and being accompanied by a person from the office even a parent delivering a forgotten book or lunch.

Wouldn't those schools likely represent tens of thousands of other schools around the country? Some being very serious every single day about security and others slacking off a bit because security is time consuming?

I don't like the Dept of Education much - but since it exists seems to me it should be participating in safety protocols, in adding cameras and fences if needed, in providing trained security officers/door monitors, in adding metal detectors in high risk area schools.

When I was in elementary school, county and state school boards made all the decision....that's no longer the case. School security doesn't start with gun laws - it starts with the Dept of Education and state and local school boards with the guts to set and maintain security protocols. Unfortunately, school boards can't be heard over the politicians with their anti-gun agendas.

IN THIS TRAGEDY - this killer did not post about his intentions until 30 minutes before he killed. He apparently doesn't have a criminal background - no one expected this of him. here was a security guard it seems but he engaged after this kid was in the school. The only thing that might have stopped or at least limited this tragedy is a locked/monitored exterior door and a locked classroom door. Low tech.


Sorry to be so wordy on this topic. Columbine was the first we remember...police did not enter the school until the next DAY out of fear of 'additional shooters'. Medical personnel were not allowed to enter. My cousin's husband was the teacher who died because there was no medical help allowed into that school after the shooting. That was over 20 years ago and it's only gotten worse, not better.


As a country - we should be smarter than this.

Gotta tellya, don't gaht much sway with guns 'n stuff, Moi.

Gimme toosix shootahs on muh hips, an' they slip right offa my legs bcs no fancy leathah belt scrawny ol' Moi evah seen gaht enough holes to make with the poifect buckle less'n we summonin' snakes can eat thuhown tails.

So, hey, can we touch base on 2 ways more hooman-friendly to coexist as we pondah our potential fyootyoore conduct regardin' guns?

I would so wish for nowan dies don't gotta.

Plus also, gotta hope you with me here in my perfectly executable sentiment ...



1.

Don't evah position yusself into a scenario where wantin' to kill sumone makes actschwl frickin' sense.

(I believe Asimov's robahts nailed this like eons ago, an' they were only stoopid robaaahts FFS.)

2.

Don't evah question 1..

(You may argue for the existence of inevitable or desirable conflict ONLY if you break this rule.)


Alternatives?


These are the stuff of degree, I figure.

An' you may mebbe wanna measyoore it out this way.

Ask yusself ...

Who would YOU most wanna shoot?

Not as a desperation thing ... nor even as a way crayzee whim ... but simply bcs you could?

Course'n, you would nevah shoot no *child*.

But you would surely have a *list* ...

if'n you invited this WHO WOULD I MOST WANNA SHOOT question upon yusself.

A list ...

like a pyramydahl hierarchy with the NO NO NO TIP cut offa by possibyooly the lack of immediate weaponry to hand, plus also an absence of massed 5yos tryin' to undahstand which witch is whatevah (etc) dead center beneath your gaze.

Could be a stoopid list you gaht there, but it is nonetheless TO DO if'n you say it is. A proto-WISH, if'n you wish.

(Cats. Octogenarians. Guys with unauthentic beards who would rathah you hadn't see through their act.)

All I know is, without a gun in your hand -- how would you make your way down your (possibly octogenarian) TO DO list, item by item, with the consummate effectiveness of a proven slayah?

Try this out with spoons, an' you way less effective!

But you no less self-summonably harmful to othahs.

As in kinda I will naht even hold out till'n #12,567 on the WHO WOULD I MOST WANNA SHOOT list ("anonymous" on most theoretical rosters you see, but could mebbe show as "anywan" IRL) bcs technically that is algorithmin' out in the direction of You So Troolz -- even if'n you don't get math!

Aftah all, when you shot 'bout most evrywan, who in hell be left to shoot, zackly?


Hey, so mebbe we gotta start askin' people this question.

Who would YOU most wanna shoot?

Nowan gaht no gun, nuthin' happens.

It is a technicality, but ... hey.

For sure, I could POP both your EYEBALLS with a BIRO as we WRITHE on the floor TOGETHAH in a PROFOUNDLY DOUBLE-MURDEROUS TRYST ...

But why would I wanna do that?

Prolly bcs I don't evah position musself into a scenario where wantin' to kill sumone makes actschwl frickin' sense.

The problem with 'instant news' is that it is so often wrong. TX police are walking back comments made yesterday...now they say no security officer was in the building and the shooter was in the school for over an HOUR while police waited outside for a 'tactical team'.


Sounds like the story told yesterday was mostly made up facts. Watching the news tonight my son said 'too bad the parents weren't armed - they would not have waited for backup.'

...cause I want to Don't have to use 'shift'....

i ate a hamburger 'yesterday'

see - I started a whole new 'thing' without even trying. I should be a marketer....just sayin'....


Which reminds me of something I read recently....


"you may notice I often end a comment or answer with 'just sayin'...I do that that because it's more considerate than saying 'dumb a@@'"

I joke because I'm so frustrated with the thread topic - I hear so many experts and politicians and armchair lawyers proposing solutions...


No one wants to talk about the unlocked door....or the one hour wait outside for a techgear squad to show up even though officers were present.

So are there ever times the security measures work and keep shooters out of school so only a few people outside the schools get hurt.

There has to be some cases of that or is it a 100 percent failure rate when someone wants to find a way in they get in

Someone who should not own weapons finds a way to get their hands on weapons and get into a school to shoot children. Bypassing all the security measures put in place from previous shooters.

Maybe we should not have experts design the security systems but 16 or 17 year olds

I heard the teacher propped the door open just 30 minutes before the guy went in. That right there is how conspiracy theories start. Some say it was to get ready for the false flag. Others say it was them innocently opening the door.

Who knows?

I hope they get to the bottom of all this. That may help prevent future tragedies. I'm not ready to fully blame anyone except the shooter until it all gets figured out. Jumping to conclusions and coming up with theories without hard proof hardly ever helps things.

During all this figuring out time, though, those poor families are being traumatized over and over as they learn x didn't do y in time or z was in the wrong spot or why did a do this.

It's a mess.

Mark

The more this plays out..the more information we are getting ( and not getting ) The more we are reading these news stories that discuss the effectiveness of "Laws" as it pertains to these types of situations... its very clear the approach is tail end backwards.

"Control the Controllable" - you simply can NOT control insanity... and to think for 2 seconds you can... is insane. The absolute correction for this will fall into the lines of forget the bad guy in these scenarios and start thinking about the facilities - how do you stop bad guys getting in.

"Propping a door open" given this situation sounds ludacris... But WHY did the teacher feel the need to do so? Musky smell? air flow? and again take the bad guy out of the picture and look at the underlying issues.

Lets start with installing a alarm for any and every exterior school door in any and every school across America... At the very least alert the office there is an open door - vs a blaring alarm -no more open doors. Would THIS alone have stopped this tragedy? one could very much argue this. WHY are teachers inclined to open doors - FIX the underlying issues. F "District Budgets" and get it done

In the case of Florida a few years back... thats an open campus meaning it is laid out more like a college IE multiple buildings - So a fenced parameter becomes a very good start - would this have stopped that incident... and again the argument could be made that yes it would have.

Start with the controllable. "Laws" will not resolve this - has not yet and will not anytime in the foreseeable future. Preventative systems based apon the known history of these situations ( hindsight being 20/20 vision ) mitigates at worst, and flat out stops this nonsense at best.

Law reform.... background checks for ALL weapons... background checks for ALL munitions, background checks for ALL clip sales. This kid spent in excess of $6000 in a day or 2? ding ding ding RED FLAG. A young man with a part time job in fast food - there is without question more to this story.

Oversee the purchasing - Control the ability to enter - and a lot of this stuff just stops

that's one unmotivated mass murderer that is deterred by a locked door and a fat rent-a-cop

I think a combination of a waiting period before you can get your new gun....and perhaps a flag on multiple purchases....along with security fences, cameras, locked steel doors and even locked classroom doors....might stop some of these shooters. Limit entrances that can be used when students are present - and put cameras, alarms and security personal AT the door.

An armed guard at the door could have stopped this - a police leader with real experience could have stopped this sooner. That will haunt these parents for the rest of their lives.

We see it on the news - but we don't think it will happen in our town....so the room is stuffy or the hall is hot - you open the door for a bit.

That children so young were calling 911 and that was not being relayed to police at the school is inexcusable. This tragedy will end up being a case taught in police academies.

I was thinking of 10 days or so as a waiting period - thinking of it as the same 'wait 24 hrs' that is advice offered on suicide watch. The thought that the person may change their focus - change their mind. Might make no difference.

We could also have a registry of 'approved buyers' - those who have passed an extensive background check and have a record of purchases and no criminal record.

My son and d-in-law have 'fast pass' passports - they bypass security lines in airports everywhere. It's more expensive and it requires a background check that takes some time.

I don't see why gun purchases couldn't be like that. Except there's no political glory in it - any more than there is requiring school doors to be locked and monitored when children are present.

Even when background checks took days - my son could clear a purchase in 10 minutes because of his gov security clearance level. Why can't we have a security database for guns? Do a full background check for those willing to pay a fee for convenience - and slow walk any other buyers through an extensive background check for every gun they buy?

What we are all saying is there are things we CAN do to improve security. Those things often are ignored because there is no political benefit to them...and that is sad.

Can't believe people can just carry guns in public as they wish.

@Savidge4 - I'm not for banning guns because I don't think it would work.

I am for enforcing the laws we have...and, holding parents more responsible.

44 shootings in Chicago this past weekend with 8 fatalities (last count).

If I were in charge for a day, I'd hold every parent responsible for any crime their child did under the age of 18. Too many parents have no clue what their kids are doing... 13-year-olds robbing and then getting shot and the parent is suddenly outraged at law enforcement. Mind you, this was like 2 in the morning when the kid was out robbing someone and stealing a car...so many stories like this...

I'm all for holding parents responsible.

Personally, I think it's an outrage and a complete shame we let parents just get off with no charges after they let their kids roam the streets all night and cause problems.

Thanks for your insight.

My rant for today

Edit: I said under 18, because the overwhelming majority of the offenders over 18 have a long list of problems before they were 18 but their records are sealed because they were juveniles

Ban guns and you'll see a decrease in school shootings. But you'll see an increase in mass stabbings and school bombings. A twisted mind will always find a way to inflict misery and pain.

Gun restrictions are a band aid to the issue. Mental health is the real issue, IMHO. Treat the tumor, not the symptom.

Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to how to go about that or what the root cause is. If I were to proffer a guess, I'd say children aren't learning how to handle rejection and adversity at appropriate ages anymore. This lack of coping skills creates a tidal wave of negative emotion which culminates, in the right person, as a need to seek retribution as violently as possible.

It's so sad that such kind of things keeps happening and to make a lot worse, it's our kids that are being targeted.

Imagine the pain of all the parents that have to bury their own child/children. A lot of them would get depressed over this.

I'm not convinced we live in any worse times than ever before...

Look at history. People were thrown in vats of boiling oil because of their beliefs. Witches were hung. WWII and I. Plagues that killed millions in the world...

some very horrible events occurred in history.

I do believe with social media and a 24-hour news situation, we're more aware of what is happening and it creates bigger discussions.

Yes, we see a lot of terrible things happening, but every generation before us had their list of terrible things.

Events get used for political reasons and religious reasons during every generation.

Mental health always needs more consideration in my opinion.

Saw a report today where some guys stomped on a woman's head in broad daylight in China and people there are outraged over it...shows how the current news cycles bring us reports we would have never heard of before....

We get most of our news from social media these days...and the opinions and conspiracy theories and ideas are endless