What would happen to a parent if they did the same thing?

16 years ago

Maybe things are coming around full circle from the past. In a high school a substitute teacher was knocked unconscious and ,maybe the same one, had her desk smashed through the glass and this is not even a violent city, like Chicago. Children need to know in certain terms that such behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Just talking and saying not to do such things is seen as weak and some students will walk right over that.

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garyv

16 years ago

I wouldn't know whether I'd sue the officers, or the parents for creating such a brat. My son would have had a behind the woodshed epiphany well before a situation like this is created.

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KimW

16 years ago

"My son would have had a behind the woodshed epiphany well before a situation like this is created. "

Gary, that all sounds so good, but the fact is that nowadays in most of the USA you will be thrown in jail and branded a child abuser after disciplining your child in such a manner. Just so you understand though, I agree with you 100%.

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whateverpedia

16 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

"My son would have had a behind the woodshed epiphany well before a situation like this is created. "

Gary, that all sounds so good, but the fact is that nowadays in most of the USA you will be thrown in jail and branded a child abuser after disciplining your child in such a manner. Just so you understand though, I agree with you 100%.

If I'd behaved like that when I was 10, my backside would still be sore and bruised.

On the other hand, surely two grown men should be able to pacify a 10 year old without having to use weapons.

Lot's of blame to go around in this case.

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garyv

16 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

"My son would have had a behind the woodshed epiphany well before a situation like this is created. "

Gary, that all sounds so good, but the fact is that nowadays in most of the USA you will be thrown in jail and branded a child abuser after disciplining your child in such a manner. Just so you understand though, I agree with you 100%.

Very true Kim - You have to be very discreet now days w/ discipline. I don't condone beating, but a few reinforcements from the backside never hurt anyone's feelings.

My wife works at the local HighSchool, and the kids there are a complete nightmare. They are completely out of control because the teachers have no legal way of keeping them under control. When I was in school, the principle kept a giant paddle hanging up in his office for everyone to see. And we all knew that it wasn't just a decoration.

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Andie

16 years ago

Awesome - a new hot niche "Discreet Discipline - Old school lessons in New school world"

yeah, lots of blame to go around w/that one no doubt
2 men vs >100lb boy? seriously...

did this 'caretaker' call the parents before the police? Hmmm..

world makes me sad anymore

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seasoned

16 years ago

Gee, if *I* were the police officer, it would have taken me MINUTES to settle the situation! I would have written a ticket for capricious, and possibly fallacious, filing of a police report, and issueed it to the SCHOOL! It is THEIR job to avoid this.

The police officer committed THREE felonies!

1. Abuse of force.
2. Child Abuse.
3. Child Endangerment.

The school should be fined, people that assisted or stood by should AT LEAST be fined! The police officers should lose ALL benefits, be fired, fined, and thrown in jail! A taser is DANGEROUS and controversial, and I don't know if it has been tested for minors.

The police, if they WANTED to restrain the kid, could have EASILY handcuffed the kid, thrown him into a car, scared him with what COULD have happened, taken him home, and given his parents a severe reprimand.

Steve

And WHO are THEY to say the child Sustained "no significant injuries"?!?!?!?!? The FACT is that his heart sped up, his muscles seized, could cause emotional damage,etc...(That is what a taser is for, since those symptoms incapacitate) That COULD have caused heart damage, vascular damage, and muscle damage and symptoms might not be known for YEARS! He was ONLY 10yo and 94 pounds. EVEN a doctor with an EEG, and MRI wouldn't give such a definitive statement, and they were LESS qualified!

BTW if they need to use THIS, what are they being paid for?

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KimW

16 years ago

"When I was in school, the principle kept a giant paddle hanging up in his office for everyone to see. And we all knew that it wasn't just a decoration. "

When I was in high school I had that huge paddle used on me.

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

"When I was in school, the principle kept a giant paddle hanging up in his office for everyone to see. And we all knew that it wasn't just a decoration. "

When I was in high school I had that huge paddle used on me.

I was spanked in 1st and 2nd grades for NO GOOD REASON! I will NEVER forget Ms. Brown.

Frankly, it would have been better if they spanked the BULLIES!

Steve

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Andie

16 years ago

Before it gets into a topic of 'school' things...it was a home day care setting (i'm guessing after school care)
from the article:
One officer called to a home day care to help control an unruly 10-year-old

: )
Andie

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KimW

16 years ago

You know, it doesn't matter where it was, there is NO justification for a police officer to taser a 10 year old. Of course, I also have to say I am against tasers being used on anybody.
No, you asked this:"did this 'caretaker' call the parents before the police? "
I'm not going to asnwer that for you, if in doubt, reread the source article.

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Andie

16 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

You know, it doesn't matter where it was, there is NO justification for a police officer to taser a 10 year old. Of course, I also have to say I am against tasers being used on anybody.
No, you asked this:"did this 'caretaker' call the parents before the police? "
I'm not going to asnwer that for you, if in doubt, reread the source article.

No, it doesn't matter where it was - I agree with you completely there was no good reason for the taser being used at all!
child wasn't even100 lbs; i can't imagine they couldn't restrain without slapping and using weapons.
Maybe I'm dense but it doesn't seem clear on who summoned them (for the 2nd time)...might have been a neighbor seeing the ruckus even?

regardless, I don't put a lot of stock in news media anymore anyway and the way they can make things sound so far from actuality.

Andie

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seasoned

16 years ago

Kim,

It doesn't say if his parents were called BEFORE the police! BTW The "daycare" should lose their license!

Did the police even ask the boy WHY he was doing this? Maybe he was mistreated! HECK, I have been in similar circumstances. I once ran around a "doctor's" office and acted HOSTILE! THEY tried to make me sound bad. I was about 8. WHY did I act that way? They were IDIOTS and kept sticking a needle into me saying they couldn't find a vein. EVENTUALLY, I got tired of that. I didn't want them hitting my tendons, or hurting my arm, so I refused to be a pin cushion. I had my blood taken PLENTY of times before that and since. HECK, I had my blood taken DOZENS of times in just the past 6 years! NOBODY was as incompetent as that "doctor". Only 4 people, including them, EVER had a problem!

ANOTHER time, when I was about 7, I broke a person's wrist. WHY? Because he claimed to be a karate expert, and was trying to hurt me. I was bullied a lot, and figured I should show how I could hurt him. I didn't know karate, he was bigger than I was, etc... He tried to hit me, I took his wrist and broke it. HEY, even THEN people didn't seem to care about bullies.

You REALLY have to try to get an impartial explanation.

Steve

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KimW

16 years ago

"I don't put a lot of stock in news media anymore anyway and the way they can make things sound so far from actuality."

But it's not just the media, the next door neighbor can too.Or the classmate, or the dispatcher on the other end of the radio. How do we know who if anyone is telling the story the way it really happened?

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graemewallis

Banned 16 years ago

I read this article earlier today. I wonder why did these Police Officers feel like they needed to use a Stun Gun on a 10 year old. This is sad.

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KimW

16 years ago

Originally Posted by graemewallis

I read this article earlier today. I wonder why did these Police Officers feel like they needed to use a Stun Gun on a 10 year old. This is sad.

Stun guns take away their responsibility to actually do their job. Its their easasy way out of almost any situation nowadays. Ten is the youngest I have heard about but I have also hear about them tasering elderly folks.
There can be a situation where there are twenty cops and one or two peaceful student protesters and the cops will taser them.
There are also instances of deaths from people being tasered.
Who says taseres are safe? The people that sell them and the police.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ser+abuse&aq=f

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

Stun guns take away their responsibility to actually do their job. Its their easasy way out of almost any situation nowadays. Ten is the youngest I have heard about but I have also hear about them tasering elderly folks.
There can be a situation where there are twenty cops and one or two peaceful student protesters and the cops will taser them.
There are also instances of deaths from people being tasered.
Who says taseres are safe? The people that sell them and the police.

YouTube - taser abuse

IT'S A fact THAT TASERS ARE NOT SAFE! EDISON said that AC was NOT SAFE! When they first used AC to KILL a person, in the electric chair, he basically felt VINDICATED! The taser simply uses a lower wattage and higher voltage, and the idea is to limit the damage and basically use the power to incapacitate. It is ALSO a fact that smaller people are more likely to be affected, and placement can mean the difference between a veritable tingle and DEATH! LUCKILY, there is a BIG separation there, and most bypass the heart well enough and are separated enough to have the OBVIOUS and SHORT TERM symptom APPEAR to be only incapacitation.

Frankly, any police officer that uses it in this way on a little kid is downright EVIL and STUPID and shouldn't be allowed anywhere in government. And a 10 year old is barely into puberty! He isn't even a teenager yet! What is next, trying it on a baby? And a baby is small enough that they may just DIE. Any real damage would certainly be more obvious.

BTW I used to sometimes check inductive kickback by feeling it.(Almost like some checked 9volt batteries by putting the contacts on the tounge) HECK, I was into electronics. Sounds stupid, yeah, but I was anxious, etc.... It causes you to lose control of affected muscles temporarily, and can cause them to move abruptly, With seizures, some have died simply because of THE abrupt movement! I mean try bashing your head on concrete and see how you feel. And inductive kickback is EXACTLY what a taser uses. Granted, I was younger, but I CONTROLLED placement, the voltage was LOWER, and it was only ONE quick pulse! A taser could have thousands or millions of pulses. In fact, there is NO way you could get a taser to generate only one pulse. That is just a minor fraction of a second.

BTW just as an example. It takes 99volts to power the average neon indicator lamp. A 6volt lantern battery will not cause a neon bulb to do ANYTHING! The inductive kickback from a momentary contact with that SAME 6volt battery will cause that 99volt neon bulb to FLASH!

Steve

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Kay King

16 years ago

The officers arrived at the house to find the boy out of control, hitting and kicking his caretakers, according to police. He also wouldn't obey the officers before they used force, they said.
Davis said the confrontation occurred on the porch of the house while other children were inside. Police had been called to the day care once before in recent months about the same child, he said.

What the story doesn't say is how big the child is. I just wonder why the day care continued to allow the child there after the first time police had to be called.

It's a story meant to create outrage - and we have no idea what the full story is. I don't believe we are talking about a normal 10 yr old though.

kay

Much more of the story here

http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...-10-questioned

I will say I don't care much for the police chief - he is issuing statements before a full investigation.

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Andie

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

What the story doesn't say is how big the child is. I just wonder why the day care continued to allow the child there after the first time police had to be called.

It's a story meant to create outrage - and we have no idea what the full story is. I don't believe we are talking about a normal 10 yr old though.

kay

Much more of the story here

IndyStar.com | Communities | The Indianapolis Star

I will say I don't care much for the police chief - he is issuing statements before a full investigation.

Sorry -- but I read 94 lbs...no matter how it is put together, it is *still* only 94 lbs even if it is a psychotic 94 lbs it is less than half of a one of the officers. the only scenario I can see them being 'unable' to restrain him is if he was waving a gun - holding hostages - or some other weapon and it doesn't seem any of that was happening.
(my 2cents)
Andie

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JohnMcCabe

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Andie

Sorry -- but I read 94 lbs...no matter how it is put together, it is *still* only 94 lbs even if it is a psychotic 94 lbs it is less than half of a one of the officers. the only scenario I can see them being 'unable' to restrain him is if he was waving a gun - holding hostages - or some other weapon and it doesn't seem any of that was happening.
(my 2cents)
Andie

At 94 lbs., this kid is the size of a small man or woman. Would it have been better if the officers used nightsticks or batons to control someone who was out of control, kicking and screaming and attacking people? Maybe people would have been happier if the officers had tried to physically subdue the boy and had an eye gouged out or finger bitten off?

Without knowing the actual situation, it's possible that the boy was a danger to himself and others, and subduing him with a taser jolt was the option with the least potential for harm. We'll never know for sure.

I'm not saying they made the right decision. I can't say that based on the accounts of two newspapers who count on controversy to sell papers. I also can't say they made the wrong decision, for the same reason.

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pickthat apple 16 years ago

I think that a lot of energy is wasted in this world, which could be channeled and used in more productive ways...
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Michael Motley

16 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

Stun guns take away their responsibility to actually do their job. Its their easasy way out of almost any situation nowadays. Ten is the youngest I have heard about but I have also hear about them tasering elderly folks.
There can be a situation where there are twenty cops and one or two peaceful student protesters and the cops will taser them.
There are also instances of deaths from people being tasered.
Who says taseres are safe? The people that sell them and the police.

YouTube - taser abuse

While i agree, the cops are damned if they do, damned if they dont. If people dont follow the cops orders, the cops get a bunch of crap from the people and their superiors for not making them follow orders. If they dont follow orders and the cops taser them, the public gets outraged, if the cop used a nightstick instead, my god the outrage that would go on, and if they pull their weapon, they will be crucified before sunset.

They are paid to do a job that requires them to use force but if they use that force people get up in arms about it. There is a simple answer to this, just follow their orders.

I'm not saying blindly follow them, but if you dont want to, be prepared for the reaction.

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

While i agree, the cops are damned if they do, damned if they dont. If people dont follow the cops orders, the cops get a bunch of crap from the people and their superiors for not making them follow orders. If they dont follow orders and the cops taser them, the public gets outraged, if the cop used a nightstick instead, my god the outrage that would go on, and if they pull their weapon, they will be crucified before sunset.

They are paid to do a job that requires them to use force but if they use that force people get up in arms about it. There is a simple answer to this, just follow their orders.

I'm not saying blindly follow them, but if you dont want to, be prepared for the reaction.

Police are NOT paid to do a job that REQUIRES them to use force! If they can simply talk to a person, and stop a problem, they can do that. Cops are asked to do a LOT of things. I would be surprised if less than 30% can be solved WITHOUT force. And that is disregarding things like traffic related isssues. Add those in, and maybe 70%+ don't require force. HECK, I had about 8 runins with the police that I can remember. ALL were traffic related or car related in some way. 7 were TOTALLY non violent and quick. 4 left me feeling worse about the police, and 4 better. ONE time the cop said he almost shot me, because he pulled me over needlessly, I was tired, and I got out of my car. If he shot me, and I came close to dying, but could give a disposition, he could likely have ended up in JAIL for quite a while. I had NO police record, NO wants/warrants/tickets/gun, was unarmed, and he stopped me for no reason.

OH YEAH, I forgot. I ALSO filed a police report on stolen property. WHAT A FARCE! They did NOTHING!

Steve

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Michael Motley

16 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Police are NOT paid to do a job that REQUIRES them to use force! If they can simply talk to a person, and stop a problem, they can do that. Cops are asked to do a LOT of things. I would be surprised if less than 30% can be solved WITHOUT force. And that is disregarding things like traffic related isssues. Add those in, and maybe 70%+ don't require force. HECK, I had about 8 runins with the police that I can remember. ALL were traffic related or car related in some way. 7 were TOTALLY non violent and quick. 4 left me feeling worse about the police, and 4 better. ONE time the cop said he almost shot me, because he pulled me over needlessly, I was tired, and I got out of my car. If he shot me, and I came close to dying, but could give a disposition, he could likely have ended up in JAIL for quite a while. I had NO police record, NO wants/warrants/tickets/gun, was unarmed, and he stopped me for no reason.

OH YEAH, I forgot. I ALSO filed a police report on stolen property. WHAT A FARCE! They did NOTHING!

Steve

Steve, they dont wear bullet proof vests, carry weapons, pepper spray and hancuffs or ride in a car that comes equipped with a shotgun because they have extra space on their belts.

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Steve, they dont wear bullet proof vests, carry weapons, pepper spray and hancuffs or ride in a car that comes equipped with a shotgun because they have extra space on their belts.

HUH?

Well, I never said there was NO danger, etc... I just said that not nearly all their tasks had any danger or required force. I can't be SURE that answers your post but, well....

Steve

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Michael Motley

16 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

HUH?

Well, I never said there was NO danger, etc... I just said that not nearly all their tasks had any danger or required force.

Steve

They are cops, everything they do that has them out in the public has danger and may require force. There are people that wake up every day and try to think of new and exciting ways to off a cop over coffee

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

They are cops, everything they do that has them out in the public has danger and may require force. There are people that wake up every day and try to think of new and exciting ways to off a cop over coffee

You're right about that, I forgot. Still, MANY have/had such problems. A bully, when I was in grade school, once said he would come to my house and shoot me. An 8yo once chased me with a VW bug, while I was on a bike! I don't know HOW he got the VW, but he did. Apparently, it was just some stupid joke(He joked about it the next day), but STILL, I could have been killed.

And I could tell you of hundreds of people nobody would weep for if THEY died. They probably have BPVs and the secret service, etc.... I would say more but...

And what of people that LOOK like the cops, their families, etc?

So hey, the police aren't the only ones that may be hurt.

Steve

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Michael Motley

16 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

You're right about that, I forgot. Still, MANY have/had such problems. A bully, when I was in grade school, once said he would come to my house and shoot me. An 8yo once chased me with a VW bug, while I was on a bike! I don't know HOW he got the VW, but he did. Apparently, it was just some stupid joke(He joked about it the next day), but STILL, I could have been killed.

And I could tell you of hundreds of people nobody would weep for if THEY died. They probably have BPVs and the secret service, etc.... I would say more but...

And what of people that LOOK like the cops, their families, etc?

So hey, the police aren't the only ones that may be hurt.

Steve

People that look like cops? Who else is in a car that says POLICE, wearing a badge, a gun, a night stick, pepper spray, bullet proof vest?

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

People that look like cops? Who else is in a car that says POLICE, wearing a badge, a gun, a night stick, pepper spray, bullet proof vest?

Someone that REALLY wants to hurt a cop is probably angry at the PERSON wearing the uniform. If they see that PERSON, do you REALLY think they won't react?

Steve

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JohnMcCabe

16 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Someone that REALLY wants to hurt a cop is probably angry at the PERSON wearing the uniform. If they see that PERSON, do you REALLY think they won't react?

Steve

Here's one place in this thread I have to agree with you, Steve. Back when I was a teenager, I worked under the golden arches. Friday nights after the local HS football game got so rowdy that we had to have off-duty cops on hand for security.

Some got liquored up and out of hand, and ended up getting arrested. One mental midget who fancied himself a badass confronted our regular cop off duty. It was mostly a cussing match until the dumbass threatened the cop with a bat and said that when he was through with the cop, he was going to visit the cop's wife and "give her what she was missing."

The cop's third job was unloading trucks, by hand, for US Steel. When the dumbass got out of the hospital, he spent 18 months in Juvy, then another ten in the state pen. I lost track of that whole mess when I moved away, but someone told me the guy was killed at 29 in a knife fight for trying to screw over a drug dealer.

But the point is, add a low IQ to a high hostility factor and mix in alcohol, and the danger is real.

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seasoned

16 years ago

KAY,

OK, you're right. The average 10 year old boy is supposedly 4'3" and 70.5 pounds. A 13yo would be 4'8" and 94.6 pounds.

STILL, if he were a teenager, he was just barely so. If he were overweight, it would only be about
25 pounds. He is STILL a minor! SO, any material fact here is still in line with what all were discussing.

BTW that article didn't really cover much new material info. The MOST material info was:

Jennings said he had been called to the day care within the past week because the boy had been acting unruly. A joint statement by Martinsville police and the Morgan County Sheriff's Department noted that officers had been called previous times on reports of the boy's out-of-control behavior. No reason for the boy's outbursts has been disclosed.
The officers said when they arrived Tuesday, the boy was kicking and yelling at a female guardian, who was lying on the porch, trying to get him under control.
The boy also allegedly spat on and kicked another woman. Johnson said the boy kicked him in the left leg.
"I had my department-issued X26 Taser out and displayed the arc for the juvenile to see," Johnson said in his report. "I advised the juvenile that if he didn't stop, then he would be tased."

Johnson said the boy swore at a woman, and Jennings told him to apologize. When the boy shook his head, Jennings "smacked the juvenile in the mouth, causing the juvenile to hit the back of his head on the house," according to Johnson's report.
Police say the boy became further enraged and lunged toward the woman again, hitting her.

Johnson and Jennings tried to control him, and Johnson shot the Taser gun at the boy's left shoulder for one to two seconds, according to Johnson's report.
The boy calmed down, and when Johnson asked him if there "were going to be any more problems today he shook his head no," according to Johnson's report.
Jennings' report does not mention the use of the stun gun or the child being slapped.
It concludes: "After several minutes he appeared to be under control and advised us he would not do it again." The police reports do not identify the boy or any other adults involved.
Area police agencies say there is no state law regarding minimum age for being subjected to a stun gun, but that the Taser manufacturer recommends a person weigh at least 60 pounds.
A written statement released jointly by the Martinsville Police Department and mayor's office, stated: "While this department will not condone the unnecessary treatment of any subject, regardless of age, in an apprehension situation, additional comments will not be made pending results of the final investigation."
The use of a stun gun on a child is rare, but in 2008, a Carmel police officer used a stun gun on a 90-pound middle-school boy with autism after he became disruptive at his school.
The boy, 14 at the time, was briefly knocked unconscious by the electrical jolt, was taken to a hospital and recovered.
In February 2009, his parents filed a federal lawsuit against the police department, the officer and the Carmel-Clay school district.
Ronald Frazier, the Indianapolis attorney who represented the parents, said the case was resolved last summer with a confidential settlement that prohibits all parties from talking about the specifics.

Frazier, whose firm specializes in cases involving children abused in educational settings and children with disabilities seeking appropriate educational accommodations, said at the time he filed the Carmel suit that he could find no other local cases of law enforcement using Tasers on children.
No state law covers when, whether or under what circumstances police can use Tasers or similar devices on children, he said. Each department sets its own policy, generally guided by the principle that officers begin with the least amount of force and "step up" their response as the situation warrants.

When cases come up, the question becomes whether "reasonable" force was used, and if it wasn't, it raises constitutional questions and therefore can be federal cases.
Frazier said he didn't know all the facts of the Martinsville case, but that it seemed strange that two adult police officers didn't have a less-painful option to control a 10-year-old boy.
"It's just hard to imagine," he said, given that police officers are trained in ways to control adults.
Sgt. Matthew Mount, spokesman for the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department, said the city's policy requires officers to gauge a situation, begin with the least amount of force and move up a "continuum" of options, up to and including deadly force.
That process might take a while and begin with talking, or it can escalate in seconds, Mount said, if a suspect lunges at officers or others with a knife, for example.
However, age, he said, is not specifically a factor that is supposed to dissuade an officer from using a Taser.

Jennings hit the child, and caused him to bang his head, out of SPITE because he asked the child to LIE, and he wouldn't! If they did that with ME at this time, I would need a CT scan(Costing a couple THOUSAND dollars!)! Frankly, I would sue for no less than a million dollars($3K for the CT, $4K for being out of work, $500K for the attorney and red tape, leaving me with $493K for unforeseen problems, possible recuperation, trouble, etc.... ), and would likely win. Of course, that is primarily because I am on warfarin, but they don't know the problems that kid has, and it was STUPID! They could have KILLED the kid because he wouldn't LIE in an attempt to make a person feel better. A person that MIGHT have even ABUSED him!?!?!?

Johnson tased him for TWO SECONDS! That is a LONG time! One second was doable and should have been MORE than enough!

Jennings broke the law by failing to report this!

Autism is OVER diagnosed, misdiagnosed, etc... so it shouldn't even come up, but it could be used to mitigate or exacerbate things.

BTW they DO speak of an older boy being tased earlier, and it says:

The boy, 14 at the time, was briefly knocked unconscious by the electrical jolt, was taken to a hospital and recovered.
In February 2009, his parents filed a federal lawsuit against the police department, the officer and the Carmel-Clay school district.
Ronald Frazier, the Indianapolis attorney who represented the parents, said the case was resolved last summer with a confidential settlement that prohibits all parties from talking about the specifics.

Does THAT sound harmless!?!?!?

And I am SICK AND TIRED of IDIOTS like that saying that "There is no law against this..." *************BULL************!

There ARE laws regarding how police are to act!
There ARE laws against undue use of force!
There ARE laws against how citizens and children are to be treated!
There ARE rules regarding the use of such devices.

and some of those rules/laws are ******FEDERAL******!!!!!

Based on that earlier case, they could find themselves in REAL
trouble! It is bad enough to pull this garbage but to pull this NEEDLESSLY after losing another case that is similar is FAR worse!

Steve

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seasoned

16 years ago

John,

The cops were CLEARLY in the wrong. One INSISTED on an appology without knowing ANYTHING, and slapped the kid HARD! HARD enough to possibly cause SEVERE secondary injuries! Can you BLAME the kid for being upset!?!?!? The OTHER failed to put it in his report, which is ITSELF possibly a felony, violates general police protocol, and is reason for a severe reprimand! And that is BEFORE any other specifics!

HECK, if anything mitigated that, you can BET it would have been reported.

It reminds me of the time my mother had her car totaled. The damage fit HER version of the story, and the other party was obviously LYING! THEIR van was OK, and they drove home. MEANWHILE, the police officer on the scene HARASSED my mother EVEN while she was being hauled away on a stretcher from her TOTALED car, and INSISTED that SHE take credit for the crash. He bugged her EVEN in the hospital and filed a FALSE POLICE REPORT! There were items that could not POSSIBLY be right!

And she was just BARELY lucid! I would be the FIRST to speak against her if I thought she was wrong! I was at the hospital just after he left, saw the police report, and saw the totaled car! She also told me her version of what happened. I had to go to the hospital to take her home.

And are you saying that the police are SO incredibly small and weak that they can't subdue that kid while he is on the ground? WHY do they have to rely on ANY weapons?

SO, if a person has full body armor on, they have to use clubs or guns, and forget about anything else? I mean tasers likely wouldn't be accurate enough.

What ever happened to the idea that a man was seen a a (excuse the term)
1. PUSSY!
2. COWARD!
3. Place other derogatory term here!

if he attacks a woman, a kid, or a senior? I mean do these police officers just go home and beat their kids and wives? THINK ABOUT IT!

steve

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JohnMcCabe

16 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

John,

The cops were CLEARLY in the wrong. One INSISTED on an appology without knowing ANYTHING, and slapped the kid HARD! HARD enough to possibly cause SEVERE secondary injuries! Can you BLAME the kid for being upset!?!?!? The OTHER failed to put it in his report, which is ITSELF possibly a felony, violates general police protocol, and is reason for a severe reprimand! And that is BEFORE any other specifics!

HECK, if anything mitigated that, you can BET it would have been reported.

It reminds me of the time my mother had her car totaled. The damage fit HER version of the story, and the other party was obviously LYING! THEIR van was OK, and they drove home. MEANWHILE, the police officer on the scene HARASSED my mother EVEN while she was being hauled away on a stretcher from her TOTALED car, and INSISTED that SHE take credit for the crash. He bugged her EVEN in the hospital and filed a FALSE POLICE REPORT! There were items that could not POSSIBLY be right!

And she was just BARELY lucid! I would be the FIRST to speak against her if I thought she was wrong! I was at the hospital just after he left, saw the police report, and saw the totaled car! She also told me her version of what happened. I had to go to the hospital to take her home.

And are you saying that the police are SO incredibly small and weak that they can't subdue that kid while he is on the ground? WHY do they have to rely on ANY weapons?

SO, if a person has full body armor on, they have to use clubs or guns, and forget about anything else? I mean tasers likely wouldn't be accurate enough.

What ever happened to the idea that a man was seen a a (excuse the term)
1. PUSSY!
2. COWARD!
3. Place other derogatory term here!

if he attacks a woman, a kid, or a senior? I mean do these police officers just go home and beat their kids and wives? THINK ABOUT IT!

steve

Slapping the kid hard enough to whack his head against the wall for cussing the cop? DEAD WRONG.

Omitting material facts from an official report? Again, DEAD WRONG.

Steve, I'm sorry for what happened to your mother, but it as nothing to do with this.

I'm not saying the cops were small or weak. I'm saying that if a 95 lb. person is hysterical, violent and out of control, there may not have been an obvious choice. Do you tackle the kid, and maybe break a bone or something? Do you get into a wrestling match with a kid and maybe get hurt yourself, which still opens you up to charges of excessive use of force? Do you use the same level of force you'd use on an adult of the same size?

I didn't see any mention of full body armor anywhere...

Going back to the cop that slapped the kid upside the head for cussing him, yeah, he earned whatever name you want to call him. For all we know, he may have brought about a situation where a higher level of force was called for.

I think those cops were in a no-win situation no matter what they did. Their actions after the fact didn't help them any.

I'm not defending the cops. I'm saying we weren't there, we didn't see what happened, and all we have to go on is a news account written to stir the pot. Yet this lynch mob is all for boiling tar and collecting feathers, if you want to get dramatic about it...

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KimW

16 years ago

"I also can't say they made the wrong decision, for the same reason. "

Actually maybe you won't, but don't say you can't,because reality is as both Steve and I have stated,tasers are NOT safe on anyone.
As I said, two groups say they are safe, the manufacturers and the police .

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JohnMcCabe

16 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

"I also can't say they made the wrong decision, for the same reason. "

Actually maybe you won't, but don't say you can't,because reality is as both Steve and I have stated,tasers are NOT safe on anyone.
As I said, two groups say they are safe, the manufacturers and the police .

Okay, no weasel words. I won't say they made the wrong decision because I don't know what the real situation was. I also won't say they made the right one, for the same reason.

IF I accept that you and Steve are correct about tasers, then the use of one should have never been an option, but reality is, that decision is made way above those cops' pay grade.

I choose to believe that these two cops were placed in a no-win situation, and one of them used the tool he was trained to use after making a snap decision based on his training. Whether that snap decision was the right one is for his superiors, and likely a judge, to decide.

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

IF I accept that you and Steve are correct about tasers, then the use of one should have never been an option, but reality is, that decision is made way above those cops' pay grade.

********************BULL********************** The decision is made IN THE FIELD! It is supposed to be for unarmed but hard to control people that NEED to be controlled! The "decision ... made way above those cops' pay grade" is *****NOT***** whether to use it or not, but to give them the OPTION to! Although STUPID for something like a small unruly minor, it is preferable, to a GUN, for an adult harasser that can't be otherwise controlled.

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

I choose to believe that these two cops were placed in a no-win situation, and one of them used the tool he was trained to use after making a snap decision based on his training. Whether that snap decision was the right one is for his superiors, and likely a judge, to decide.

And WHY has that "day care" chosen to keep doing this? THAT is the REAL basic question. The police are NOT there to help with day care!

Steve

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seasoned

16 years ago

John,

He WAS 10-14 years old, assuming only one fact was correct. You don't have to use FULL force, or brake bones. ALSO, unless he is REALLY working out, his arms won't be that strong anyway. They said the woman was on the ground restraining him, He was slapped, etc... So he OBVIOUSLY wasn't running everywhere.

I used the body armor info to try to get you to realize that what you said was not as wholly as true as you implied. AGAIN, what if this were HIS kid or HIS wife!?!? Would he beat THEM!?!? Would he STUN them!?!?!? The answer HAS to be yes because if it is YES, he is just a stupid jerk! If it is NO, he is ALSO saying that he INTENTIONALLY overreacted and was abusive.

Steve

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KimW

16 years ago

Sorry John, cops handled situations like this for quite a long time before they were given tasers. This situation is just an extreme but I stand by my opinion that tasers should not be used on humans.

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JohnMcCabe

16 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

********************BULL********************** The decision is made IN THE FIELD! It is supposed to be for unarmed but hard to control people that NEED to be controlled! The "decision ... made way above those cops' pay grade" is *****NOT***** whether to use it or not, but to give them the OPTION to! Although STUPID for something like a small unruly minor, it is preferable, to a GUN, for an adult harasser that can't be otherwise controlled.

And WHY has that "day care" chosen to keep doing this? THAT is the REAL basic question. The police are NOT there to help with day care!

Steve

That's my point. The option to equip the cops with tasers is made on a much higher level, and they are given training that conditions them to use the taser in situations calling for less than deadly force.

According to the story, that "small, unruly minor" was the size of a small adult and was kicking and hitting people. Had it been a small adult, it would have been battery. This was not some poor little tyke who was sticking out his tongue and talking out of turn.

I'm neither backing the cops nor condemning them because I don't know what the real situation on the ground was.

As for why the daycare continued to take in a kid they couldn't control, that seems pretty dumb to me. After the first incident, they should have sent the kid packing back to his parents.

Originally Posted by KimW

Sorry John, cops handled situations like this for quite a long time before they were given tasers. This situation is just an extreme but I stand by my opinion that tasers should not be used on humans.

Yup, they did. They used the tools/weapons they were issued and trained with, be it a nightstick, a baton, maybe even mace. Maybe they should have just hit the kid with pepper spray. Or just let him hit the teachers until he wore down enough to give him a time out.

Tomorrow, I'll see if I can still find the cite, but there was a local case just recently where police were forced to use a taser on a ten year old girl because she was completely hysterical and a danger to both herself and her mother. The mother backed the police for their actions.

Kim, I respect your opinion that tasers should not be used on humans. You may ultimately be right. But in this case, I can't condemn an officer for following his training in the same way that I can't condemn a soldier in battle for doing the same.

Condemn the training and the issuing of the equipment if you want, but I have a hard time believing that these two cops were just looking for a chance to tase a kid. In many places, part of the training is experiencing what being hit with a taser feels like, so that officers do think twice before using them.

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Kay King

16 years ago

It's the job of news stations to present the news in a way that will get attention.

It's normal for people to cry "foul" when they hear such news. However, we are thinking of the videos we've seen of tasing - and it seems this taser wasn't used like that. Interesting info from an expert not associated with that police department is at

Cops Taser 10-Year-Old Boy At Day Care Center : Deadline Live with Jack Blood

kay

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KimW

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

It's the job of news stations to present the news in a way that will get attention.

It's normal for people to cry "foul" when they hear such news. However, we are thinking of the videos we've seen of tasing - and it seems this taser wasn't used like that. Interesting info from an expert not associated with that police department is at

Cops Taser 10-Year-Old Boy At Day Care Center : Deadline Live with Jack Blood

kay

Kay, while he is not associated with that police department, he far from an impartial opinion.

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

According to the story, that "small, unruly minor" was the size of a small adult and was kicking and hitting people. Had it been a small adult, it would have been battery. This was not some poor little tyke who was sticking out his tongue and talking out of turn.

HOW do YOU know!?!?!?!? Maybe he WAS merely sticking out his tongue! The "day care" people may have assaulted HIM, etc... the police arrived, etc... I saw the first few seconds of the rodney king tape! He DID act like the police said! For whatever reason, they later only showed the later parts, and the police all looked like BULLIES! The FACT is that NOBODY even TRIED to explain how THIS incident started!

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

I'm neither backing the cops nor condemning them because I don't know what the real situation on the ground was.

As for why the daycare continued to take in a kid they couldn't control, that seems pretty dumb to me. After the first incident, they should have sent the kid packing back to his parents.

EXACTLY!

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Tomorrow, I'll see if I can still find the cite, but there was a local case just recently where police were forced to use a taser on a ten year old girl because she was completely hysterical and a danger to both herself and her mother. The mother backed the police for their actions.

AGAIN, the mother benefited, so her word shouldn't be so readily accepted as THE truth.

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Kim, I respect your opinion that tasers should not be used on humans. You may ultimately be right. But in this case, I can't condemn an officer for following his training in the same way that I can't condemn a soldier in battle for doing the same.

Under a case like this, a SOLDIER would be held to task! Soldiers have been COURT MARTIALLED for things like this. The LAST thing the US needs is some soldier to go in NEEDLESSLY hurting/harassing civilians!

Steve

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JohnMcCabe

16 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

HOW do YOU know!?!?!?!? Maybe he WAS merely sticking out his tongue! The "day care" people may have assaulted HIM, etc... the police arrived, etc... I saw the first few seconds of the rodney king tape! He DID act like the police said! For whatever reason, they later only showed the later parts, and the police all looked like BULLIES! The FACT is that NOBODY even TRIED to explain how THIS incident started!

Steve

Steve, the same question works both ways. HOW do YOU know that this was NOT a kid who was seriously out of control, violently attacking the day care teachers? YOU DON'T!

NONE of us know all of the facts, yet you are ready to condemn two cops based on sketchy reports and, it seems, some personal issues you have with cops.

You're right - no one that wasn't there knows how the incident started or exactly what led to using the stun. Including you. And me.

And that's why I'm refusing to takes sides, either for the cops or against them. If you can't, or won't, accept that, too bad.

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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Sorry...you don't taser kids.

End of story.

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KimW

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Sorry...you don't taser kids.

End of story.

I'm basically with Steven on this except I say you don't taser people.

While I understand Kays argument that you need some sort of effective control, something that can kill without intending to kill is not the kind of deterrent we need. ( I mention this because it was said guns kill.Yes they do, and the saying goes if you are going to shoot a gun at someone the intent better be to kill.)

And yes, there might actually be times when deadly force might need to be used, but a rowdy or even out of control 10 year old isn't that time.
Nor is a elderly person with dementia the time to use force either.

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

I'm basically with Steven on this except I say you don't taser people.

While I understand Kays argument that you need some sort of effective control, something that can kill without intending to kill is not the kind of deterrent we need. ( I mention this because it was said guns kill.Yes they do, and the saying goes if you are going to shoot a gun at someone the intent better be to kill.)

And yes, there might actually be times when deadly force might need to be used, but a rowdy or even out of control 10 year old isn't that time.
Nor is a elderly person with dementia the time to use force either.

KAY seems to think it is 100% HARMLESS! As I said, I have subjected MYSELF to a controlled shock like from a taser. Made the SAME way! I got the SAME jolt the tased people obviously get. It is NOT fun, and MINE was CONTROLLED! Just my FINGERS and just ONE pulse, like a flashbulb. I think I know a bit more than she does about this. BTW if it WERE as harmless as she implies, it wouldn't be any good ANYWAY! They use it PRECISELY for the jolt, like what I got! Saying otherwise would be like saying anesthesia doesn't put you to sleep OR reduce pain. If they didn't, there would be no point in using them.

And the taser thing is probably ok on an ADULT that DESERVES it. It is better than a rubber bullet(I forget the actual name), or a gun.

Steve

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JohnMcCabe 16 years ago

OK, Steve, you win. Screw all this "due process" crap and let's line 'em up against a wall, give them their blindfolds and cigarettes, and bring in the firing squad.

I wish I had your psychic ability to read a few lines in a news story (does the word hearsay ring any bells?) and know exactly what happened and what each of the parties was thinking while it happened.
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Kay King

16 years ago

Kay, while he is not associated with that police department, he far from an impartial opinion.

I'm not arguing for tasers - but I've read of dry tasing before and it's not the heavy jolt that some here seem to assume. I'm not fond of tasers and I think they are overused in some cases and sometimes are set too high.

The argument against tasers is "some people have died" - but how many died of gunshots before tasers? If your job is to control people - you have to have a weapon of some sort. That's the reality.

Steve -

Every report on this says this child was kicking, spitting, and screaming.

I had a friend with a 9 year old son who had an anger problem - when that child went ballistic it could take three or more people to subdue him. He screamed, bit, kicked, hit - and that was done to anyone who came near him. When he was in a rage it was surprising how strong he was.

This is not the first police call on this one child - which should tell anyone there's more involved here than a simple "mad".

My friend's son had to be taken away by police several times just to get him under control. That was at 9-10....at 13 he seriously injured two other kids - at 14 he attacked his mother with a knife.

The idea above that you could just ask this kid "what is wrong" is crazy. This is an out of control situation - an attempt to physically restrain the kid would leave bruises, the standard "toss them to the ground and sit on them" could break a kid's bones.

We wonder why the child was still in day care - but there are publicly funded after school programs where children are not allowed to be banned.
Is this one of them? We don't know.

Point is - there is not enough real info to be taking sides or slamming the police involved in this. One sharp pain in his shoulder stopped the incident - and was far less brutal than some methods that might have been used.

The parents of this child (or foster parents - seems to be some question about that) should be looking for help for the kid to correct behavior problems. Instead, they are probably talking to attorneys to see how much money they can get for this "atrocity".

I've noticed if the truth ends up being found to be far less than the sensationalized news reports - we usually just don't read much more about the incident.

kay

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

We wonder why the child was still in day care - but there are publicly funded after school programs where children are not allowed to be banned.
Is this one of them? We don't know.

It said it was a HOME "DAY CARE"!

1. PUBLIC funding for a HOME?
2. Such laws for "DAY CARE"?

I DOUBT IT! Even the 3rd amendment says NOT without consent of the owner, unless prescribed by law in time of WAR.

Steve

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Steve, the same question works both ways. HOW do YOU know that this was NOT a kid who was seriously out of control, violently attacking the day care teachers? YOU DON'T!

NONE of us know all of the facts, yet you are ready to condemn two cops based on sketchy reports and, it seems, some personal issues you have with cops.

The story inidcates CLEARLY that the kid COULD have been restrained, was slapped for NO good reason, suffered a secondary impact, and it was NOT reported by one of the officers. So I WAS commenting on what WAS in the story!

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

You're right - no one that wasn't there knows how the incident started or exactly what led to using the stun. Including you. And me.

And that's why I'm refusing to takes sides, either for the cops or against them. If you can't, or won't, accept that, too bad.

Again, I was talking about what WAS discussed.

Steve

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HeySal

16 years ago

There have been over 300 US citizens killed by tasers used by police. In one incident a teenage boy fell off a bridge and was tased 19 times. His back was broken at the time that police claimed him "suspicious acting" and yadda yadda.

They are being sued, of course, but if a teenager with a broken back is cause for mass tasing, we can suspect that all of us are suseptable to being tased at some time.

That kid needed a serious and humiliating spanking but he didn't need to be tased.

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garyv

16 years ago

We're at a point where there's almost nothing that can be done to protect your school or daycare center from the irresponsible behavior of some of these kids. Personally I'd send home some strict policies w/ warning of expulsion. But I don't even know if that's legal.

Teachers don't know what to do, because any type of discipline can be turned into a lawsuit by the parents. There was a time when parents were more trusting of those put in charge of their kids. When I was in the care of someone else, be it at school or daycare, my mom used to warn me to behave myself. If I got into trouble at school, my punishment at home would be double what it was at school.

Now, when any type of discipline is given out at school, those parents that are used to not disciplining their children, want to protect them from any discipline at all costs. Thus we end up with these spoiled monsters in our system. And the system just gets worse, because these spoiled monsters breed even worse monsters.

But what is a teacher to do? You can't discipline the child yourself as a teacher. Do you leave it for the police? Or do you do like this teacher did, and let the students handle the punishment?...

Teacher encourages beatings on bus, educator says | Chronicle | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

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seasoned

16 years ago

Yeah, where IS the due process? Just GO, ask the kid to apologize AND, when he says NO, slap him hard enough to have him hit the back of his head against something! Pity they couldn't have simply handcuffed him, huh? And HEY, they KNEW how this could end up because THEY DID IT BEFORE! OH YEAH, and don't forget to not report any hitting or tasing!

Steve

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sarahberra

16 years ago

Oh my!! A stun gun is a form of torture. What is going on with the police. It's hard to know who to trust. Yikes. The poor boy.

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Vis

16 years ago

They need more training to use specific approaches to different kinds of violences.. The "one size fit all" approach is very outdated...

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fallencrest

16 years ago

I couldn't blame the officers for employing force on kid because he's such a brat refusing to be pacified. :rolleyes:

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sloanjim

16 years ago

You can't even smak your own kids these days without getting all kinds of stares and comments. PC has gone mad..... Sometimes..you have to. No doubt about it. Yet we now live in such a nandy, pandy world we feel like criminals

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by sloanjim

You can't even smak your own kids these days without getting all kinds of stares and comments. PC has gone mad..... Sometimes..you have to. No doubt about it. Yet we now live in such a nandy, pandy world we feel like criminals

Smack your OWN kid in ONE way with controlled force for something you KNOW he/she did? THAT is ok in my book.

Smack ANOTHER'S child in an uncontrolled way and possibly cause a secondary injury that COULD EVEN LEAD TO DEATH, because he/she didn't listen to some "COMMAND" you gave that may be TOTALLY WRONG!?!?!? You should get LOCKED UP!

Steve

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sloanjim

16 years ago

from what I have heard no kids have ZERO respect for teachers. They now know nothing can be done. I have heard of kids putting ipods on in class, swearing at teachers, taking indecent pictures of them (can you beleive that?) doing bascially as they wish.

So..well done PC idiots. What a fantastic new set of human beings we have to look forward to. Wait till lthey get on the roads, in the bars....that'll be fun.

We're at a point where there's almost nothing that can be done to protect your school or daycare center from the irresponsible behavior of some of these kids. Personally I'd send home some strict policies w/ warning of expulsion. But I don't even know if that's legal.

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conet

16 years ago

It is very confusing at all and make all so messy.

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nadia712

16 years ago

Geez. That article really leaves a lot to be desired as far as factual information goes.

What were the police called over for, exactly? What was he doing? Were his parents contacted first? Did they try to subdue the kid before they used the stun gun? Were others at risk?

If he was endangering other kids at the daycare and the officers were, for whatever reason, having a hard time subduing him, perhaps they did what they had to do.

Personally, I'm not totally sure who to label as the "bad guy." It does look like the police could have chosen another avenue in getting the boy under control, though.

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Kay King

16 years ago

After an internal investigation - the two officers were suspended for violating department policies. A meeting this week will decide their punishment.

The boy is a foster child and his guardian was present at the time - he was trying to attack her once he went out of control.

Comments made seem to indicate both officers were aware of this particular child because police had been called to subdue him on more than on occasion.

It's sad to use a taser on a child - even sadder for police officers to have to be baby sitters for kids out of control.

In Texas a 72 yr old woman was tasered after being combatant at a traffic stop - she was awarded $40k by the city (without court trial) even though she admitted she lost control and was abusive. They said it was cheaper to pay her than go through a court case.

Why would anyone want to be a cop these days?

kay

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

After an internal investigation - the two officers were suspended for violating department policies. A meeting this week will decide their punishment.

The boy is a foster child and his guardian was present at the time - he was trying to attack her once he went out of control.

Comments made seem to indicate both officers were aware of this particular child because police had been called to subdue him on more than on occasion.

It's sad to use a taser on a child - even sadder for police officers to have to be baby sitters for kids out of control.

In Texas a 72 yr old woman was tasered after being combatant at a traffic stop - she was awarded $40k by the city (without court trial) even though she admitted she lost control and was abusive. They said it was cheaper to pay her than go through a court case.

Why would anyone want to be a cop these days?

kay

The days of a cop being respected, not having to really ever fire, etc... are LONG gone. It became, at least MANY decades ago, something like another branch of the military. There will probably always be people, etc... but I have often asked the same question. Just today, I heard that the starting salary is $42K in MA. That is about what it was for the LAPD like 20 years ago.

BTW the term guardian is HEAVILY overused. In WHAT way was she a guardian? Still, SHE should have taken care of the kid. If it is a foster parent, I hope she loses everything related to such a position.

Steve

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by nadia712

Geez. That article really leaves a lot to be desired as far as factual information goes.

What were the police called over for, exactly? What was he doing? Were his parents contacted first? Did they try to subdue the kid before they used the stun gun? Were others at risk?

If he was endangering other kids at the daycare and the officers were, for whatever reason, having a hard time subduing him, perhaps they did what they had to do.

Personally, I'm not totally sure who to label as the "bad guy." It does look like the police could have chosen another avenue in getting the boy under control, though.

Well, the police were called over BEFORE! They had time to demand that he appologize, and HIT him, before using the stun gun.

The other kids weren't in danger at the moment. A person had him outside, and THEY were basically struggling.

There isn't enough to say if the boy or the center were at fault, but the police obviously did the WRONG thing!

Steve

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Michael Motley

16 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, the police were called over BEFORE! They had time to demand that he appologize, and HIT him, before using the stun gun.

The other kids weren't in danger at the moment. A person had him outside, and THEY were basically struggling.

There isn't enough to say if the boy or the center were at fault, but the police obviously did the WRONG thing!

Steve

So a grown man blasting a 10 year old with a punch or a nightstick is ok...but a tazer isnt?

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

So a grown man blasting a 10 year old with a punch or a nightstick is ok...but a tazer isnt?

HEY, I spoke against the SLAP ALSO! That is lighter than a punch OR a nightstick. I spoke about the taser a LITTLE bit more. If you didn't read my posts on the slap or taser, you would have VERY little to respond to.

Steve

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Michael Motley

16 years ago

I've been tazed before..its no fun, but its temporary.

While people dont like to hear it, the cop probably had no alternative. Had he laid a hand on that kid, like the parents should be doing, my god the outrage would shoot through the stratosphere in this country. A nightstick? yeah...the aclu would be ripping him a new one in seconds. Pepper spray? Oh yeah, nothing would help out public relations like the red, teary eyed, snot running from the nose face of the kid plastered all over the papers and cnn.

The tazer is an approved response method for cops. I have never seen a cop pull a tazer without giving a couple warnings, I doubt it was any different here.

If people would teach their little crumbsnatchers some manners, they wouldn't be glowing in the dark and twitching when they came home.

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

I've been tazed before..its no fun, but its temporary.

While people dont like to hear it, the cop probably had no alternative. Had he laid a hand on that kid, like the parents should be doing, my god the outrage would shoot through the stratosphere in this country. A nightstick? yeah...the aclu would be ripping him a new one in seconds. Pepper spray? Oh yeah, nothing would help out public relations like the red, teary eyed, snot running from the nose face of the kid plastered all over the papers and cnn.

The tazer is an approved response method for cops. I have never seen a cop pull a tazer without giving a couple warnings, I doubt it was any different here.

If people would teach their little crumbsnatchers some manners, they wouldn't be glowing in the dark and twitching when they came home.

He DID lay a hand on the kid! He slapped him SO hard that the kid hit the back of his head! That happened BEFORE the tazing! Heck, even PEPPER spray would have been preferable. As for YOU being tazed? First, WHY? Second, they aren't all the same and not all people are the same. NEXT, you will be saying OH, airbags are SAFE, even though they are PROVEN to be potentially DEADLY in some cases, or seatbelts are safe, etc... NOT EVEREYONE OR EVERYTHING is the same!

Steve

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Kay King

16 years ago

The other kids weren't in danger at the moment. A person had him outside, and THEY were basically struggling.

Why are you so upset about this one news story? Reports are that the end of the confrontation was on the porch with young children in the yard nearby. You don't know what the kid was yelling or who he was originally fighting with - none of us do because the media is focused on the "bad cops". I agree it looks like they over-reacted but the original statement was that he was slapped (he was cussing his guardian at the time) and his head hit the house. Did that happen? ...or did he pull his head back and bump it? We don't know. What we do know is that the only marks on the kid were two red marks on his shoulder. No bruises, no lump on his head.

Interesting that there have been no stories explaining why the "guardian" was standing there - why he was trying to attack her - or what the home situation and background is. Why is that do you think? Maybe because there's a lot more attention and outrage if we think this is a poor, defenseless 10 yr old kid?

kay

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Why are you so upset about this one news story? Reports are that the end of the confrontation was on the porch with young children in the yard nearby. You don't know what the kid was yelling or who he was originally fighting with - none of us do because the media is focused on the "bad cops".

I never claimed I knew ANY of that. You're right! Like I said, we don't know if the kid was responsible or not...

I agree it looks like they over-reacted but the original statement was that he was slapped (he was cussing his guardian at the time) and his head hit the house. Did that happen? ...or did he pull his head back and bump it? We don't know. What we do know is that the only marks on the kid were two red marks on his shoulder. No bruises, no lump on his head.

Well, if he was so close, that is all the more reason not to slap. But YEAH, that's my point. They were too harsh.

Interesting that there have been no stories explaining why the "guardian" was standing there - why he was trying to attack her - or what the home situation and background is. Why is that do you think? Maybe because there's a lot more attention and outrage if we think this is a poor, defenseless 10 yr old kid?

WHO KNOWS? As I said, I am curious myself. I am even curious as to what SORT of guardian she is. She might be one of those lousy piece of trash foster parents doing this to get money, etc... Maybe SHE caused the problem. Maybe the child was RIGHTFULLY angry at her.

So WHY do I react like this? Because people are acting like the police should be able to do all they want, and that the kids are all bad. NEITHER is necessarily the case.

Steve

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Michael Motley

16 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

He DID lay a hand on the kid! He slapped him SO hard that the kid hit the back of his head! That happened BEFORE the tazing! Heck, even PEPPER spray would have been preferable. As for YOU being tazed? First, WHY? Second, they aren't all the same and not all people are the same. NEXT, you will be saying OH, airbags are SAFE, even though they are PROVEN to be potentially DEADLY in some cases, or seatbelts are safe, etc... NOT EVEREYONE OR EVERYTHING is the same!

Steve

The kid probably needed the slap and more. So physically slapping him didnt work...well guess what the next step is...

hmm...tazing or possible blindness/respratory arrest...decisions decisions...

I wanted to be tazed..i wanted to see what it was like. I've been hit with a cattle prod, a contact tazer and an electrode tazer. the pistols that fire electrodes will light you up..but its not deadly for most.

And yeah, not everything is safe for everyone, so here's what we do, the next time there is a violent criminal with a butcher knife threatening to cut someones head off, or a crackhead with a ballbat, or a 250+lb biker that doesnt want cuffs put on him, we'll call you and you can go give him a quick physical to determine if it will be a problem for him or not before they light him up.

You know the best way to not have to worry about whether or not you are one of the people that might be seriously hurt by a tazer? Dont make the cop unholster that tazer.

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

You know the best way to not have to worry about whether or not you are one of the people that might be seriously hurt by a tazer? Dont make the cop unholster that tazer.

Well, if YOU get tazed, my response will be "So what?".

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Michael Motley 16 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, if YOU get tazed, my response will be "So what?".

As it should be!

If I or anyone else gets tazed by a cop, most likely there's a reason for it. I've never seen cops taze anyone without a warning and many officers now actually have cameras on their tazer pistols that records what is happening when the tazer is deployed, so they know they are being videoed.

Should you whine about the cop defending himself? I'm 6'3, I've had cops pull me over that have to look up to give me a ticket, i outweigh them by close to 100lbs, I've had hand to hand training and usually have atleast a small knife on me or my ASP if i'm riding my bike (small telescoping rod for self defense), if i really didnt want to be put in the car or in cuffs, they damn sure aren't going to do it by themselves. Should they just let me go? Hope i'll be a nice guy and leave them with the ability to make it home to their families on their feet if I move on them?
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KimW

16 years ago

Definitely have to agree and disagree with you here Michael.

Of course its an approved response for cops,as I said in an earlier post, it takes away responsibility from the cop.
But just because its been approved that doesn't make it a correct response.
I believe in my fist post in this thread I posted a link to a list of youtube videos that show how this "correct response" has been misused and abused.

You've been tased before,and its no fun,but its temporary you said. Well, in various posts over time you have implied that your a pretty big, in pretty good shape guy. And thats great.But a child has not fully developed physically or mentally. And if the person is not big and/or in shape, the taser can be, nad has been in numerous cases over and over again,deadly.

Of course,that said, the kid probably did and does deserve some back of the toolshed manner lessons.

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KimW

16 years ago

"Maybe because there's a lot more attention and outrage if we think this is a poor, defenseless 10 yr old kid?"

Most of my posts have said one thing over and over, tasers should not be used on humans.

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KimW

16 years ago

Michael, there is a thing known as being held to a higher standard of behavior.Now I admit, we are living in a society where standards have fallen to just above cesspool levels, but police fall into that category. The are expected to use sense in situation where sense has dissapeared.
So, taking away from the fact whether any 10 year old should be tased or not, police are expected to use a level of reasoning above the average citizen.

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Michael Motley

16 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

Michael, there is a thing known as being held to a higher standard of behavior.Now I admit, we are living in a society where standards have fallen to just above cesspool levels, but police fall into that category. The are expected to use sense in situation where sense has dissapeared.
So, taking away from the fact whether any 10 year old should be tased or not, police are expected to use a level of reasoning above the average citizen.

I agree, and in my opinion (just my opinion) using a tazer was a better option than pepper spray or a 9mm.

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KimW

16 years ago

"in my opinion (just my opinion) using a tazer was a better option than pepper spray or a 9mm. "

Point taken.

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Sylvia Meier

16 years ago

WOW, tough crowd on this thread LOL.

I'm with Kim and Steven on this, nobody, especially children, should be tazed.

I mean from the weight etc, that's my daughter's size. She's 5'1 and 96 lbs. I would wrestle her to the ground and subdue her BEFORE I would ever allow someone to taze her. And that's with the knowledge she has martial arts training and kickboxing training. If I can do it at my size, there is no reason that more than one cop couldn't do it.

Sylvia

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Sylvia Rolfe

WOW, tough crowd on this thread LOL.

I'm with Kim and Steven on this, nobody, especially children, should be tazed.

I mean from the weight etc, that's my daughter's size. She's 5'1 and 96 lbs. I would wrestle her to the ground and subdue her BEFORE I would ever allow someone to taze her. And that's with the knowledge she has martial arts training and kickboxing training. If I can do it at my size, there is no reason that more than one cop couldn't do it.

Sylvia

There USED to be a rule that cops had to be over a certain height and strength. Good old PC shot THAT down!

Steve

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Sylvia Meier

16 years ago

But still,
I'm only 125lbs and 5'6 and I can do it. You can't tell me 2 cops couldn't do it, without use of a taser?

Sylvia

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seasoned 16 years ago

Originally Posted by Sylvia Rolfe

But still,
I'm only 125lbs and 5'6 and I can do it. You can't tell me 2 cops couldn't do it, without use of a taser?

Sylvia

NAW, one could SLAP the kid. A slightly different move, and he could have handcuffed the child. But some cops are SCARED. 8-O

Steve
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Michael Motley

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Sylvia Rolfe

But still,
I'm only 125lbs and 5'6 and I can do it. You can't tell me 2 cops couldn't do it, without use of a taser?

Sylvia

Yeah, and how livid are you going to be when your daughter comes home, bruised, crying, clothes probably a little jacked up and she tells you that a couple male cops bulldogged her down to the pavement before cuffing her at school?

A couple years ago down here, there was a little kid, probably 11, 12 or so. Black female, kinda chunky but not really fat, larger that most in her age bracked i'd guess. She was acting up at school. Had taken a swipe at the counselor, tore up the principals office. Most school around here have an onstaff 'resource officer' that is usually a cop. When the cop got there she was going off but settled down. There was video of her not complying with the officers commands, she just stubbed up and folded her arms...as a child will do. He GENTLY put cuffs on her and she started crying...all this caught on film.

My god the outrage that pured out of the community because they cuffed this little girl. Its not like they pepper sprayed her and cuffed her, they just cuffed her, she put up a minor struggle but it wasn't anything that got too out of hand. For probably 2 weeks every single night on the news there was this mother and her relatives screaming HOW COULD THEY CUFF MY BABY on tv, even after seeing how the little tard was acting on video.

Why should police take a shot to their relations in the community because some parents dont teach their kids how to act or the kid is just a brat?

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Yeah, and how livid are you going to be when your daughter comes home, bruised, crying, clothes probably a little jacked up and she tells you that a couple male cops bulldogged her down to the pavement before cuffing her at school?

That wasn't what I was talking about, and I doubt it was what SHE was talking about, but handcuffing ONCE, even after a scuffle bruised is preferable to being ELECTROCUTED and possibly WORSE! BESIDES, he was slapped hard, maybe he DID get bruises. And many females probably WOULD cry!

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

A couple years ago down here, there was a little kid, probably 11, 12 or so. Black female, kinda chunky but not really fat, larger that most in her age bracked i'd guess. She was acting up at school. Had taken a swipe at the counselor, tore up the principals office. Most school around here have an onstaff 'resource officer' that is usually a cop. When the cop got there she was going off but settled down. There was video of her not complying with the officers commands, she just stubbed up and folded her arms...as a child will do. He GENTLY put cuffs on her and she started crying...all this caught on film.

My god the outrage that pured out of the community because they cuffed this little girl. Its not like they pepper sprayed her and cuffed her, they just cuffed her, she put up a minor struggle but it wasn't anything that got too out of hand. For probably 2 weeks every single night on the news there was this mother and her relatives screaming HOW COULD THEY CUFF MY BABY on tv, even after seeing how the little tard was acting on video.

Why should police take a shot to their relations in the community because some parents dont teach their kids how to act or the kid is just a brat?

HEY, if they got upset at THAT, they would get upset at ANYTHING! At least she wasn't endangered or hurt!

Steve

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Michael Motley

16 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

That wasn't what I was talking about, and I doubt it was what SHE was talking about, but handcuffing ONCE, even after a scuffle bruised is preferable to being ELECTROCUTED and possibly WORSE! BESIDES, he was slapped hard, maybe he DID get bruises. And many females probably WOULD cry!

You know how you keep from getting tazed right? Comply with the officers commands.

HEY, if they got upset at THAT, they would get upset at ANYTHING! At least she wasn't endangered or hurt!

Steve

You're right. So if people are going to get pissed either way...why should the cop further risk injury to himself, other students, the child hurting themselves, or destruction of more taxpayer property. Tazer fixes all.

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seasoned

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

You know how you keep from getting tazed right? Comply with the officers commands.

Didn't I tell you about the policeman that almost SHOT ME.....WITH A GUN!?!?!?!?

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

You're right. So if people are going to get pissed either way...why should the cop further risk injury to himself, other students, the child hurting themselves, or destruction of more taxpayer property. Tazer fixes all.

OK, so you are ok with them shooting you dead! GOT IT!

Steve

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Michael Motley 16 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Didn't I tell you about the policeman that almost SHOT ME.....WITH A GUN!?!?!?!?

OK, so you are ok with them shooting you dead! GOT IT!

Steve

Yes captain strawman....thats exactly what i said.

meds steve...take them.
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KimW

16 years ago

Yeah, I almost posted before that in my health condition ( I really have only one good arm due to surgery for dialysis) and age ( I'm not the spry youngster I used to be,shocking,I know!) I still don't think I've seen a 10 year old that I couldn't handle without a weapon.

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