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is it really this bad in the U.S.A.?

by sloanjim
33 replies
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wow..... i never knew this:
I have been in the states for a few months and what l saw there was dreadful, tent cities everywhere, spoke to the people and it seems their homes are getting reposessed just for falling behind on county and state taxes and then having their 200k home sold for 10-15k
the people that buy them at these massive dicount rates will get hit with taxes higher than the mortgage and with people losing their jobs
they cant rent either.
I have never seen so many families on the street in my life.
There will be civil unrest in the states, all the numbers they bring out are lies.
  • Profile picture of the author redflea13
    Where did you find that?
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
      I've never seen tent cities, and I live in one of the states hardest hit by the housing crisis.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    it was an email I got from someone. They said it was California...... first I've heard as well. I knew things were tough but not as bad as that. I do not know how much truth there is here....
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  • Profile picture of the author webcreationuk
    That description sounds quite apocalyptic, I think it's way too much, although I do not live in US I do not think is so bad there right now...
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by sloanjim View Post

    wow..... i never knew this:
    It is basically ILLEGAL to OWN LAND in the US, and any home is considered a "FIXTURE", and adds value to the land. I am speaking FACT here, devoid of the popuar propaganda. Indians generally live on land ceeded by treaty, and I guess amish have similar concessions.

    What you "buy" is a COLOR of title(the appearance of title), and the fixtures. And you must pay the bank, etc.... The PROBLEM is that the "real" owners of the property are the state and federal governments and they basically LEASE the property to you for what are called property taxes. Periodically, the reassess the property, and fixtures are deemed to give it more value. So if YOU pay to enlarge your home, THEY want you to pay more to stay on the property. This trumps EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!

    SO, if you fail to pay a mortgage, THEY may fail to pay the taxes, or you may simply fail to pay. VIOLA! You now lose the land(and thus the fixtures, AKA your HOME), for faiure to pay the tax.

    The SICK part is that they want to be "fair", and want to get paid a higher value, so they generally have an auction. The new payer MIGHT get it for less than you owe in
    taxes. Of course, they aren't really buying the property, so the cycle may start OVER later.

    And YEAH, that happens.

    Most of the US does NOT have tent cities though. I think you have been subjected to propaganda.

    Even most HOMELESS have permanent fixtures they can be in.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
      All of what Steve said aside...the real problem with the housing 'bust' is people buying way more house than they could afford. They knew it (if you dont know you cant pay for a $300k house on $35k a year, you're a moron), the mortgage brokers knew it, and so did the bank.

      This is another part of the 'get mine' mentality in this country. The same kind of mentality that has ceos that already make more money than god stealing the retirement money of the people who actually do the work to generate the income under them. Banks that have no problem gutting you and your family so they can have a little extra change in your pocket, businesses that find new and exciting ways to take your money out of your pocket even if it means selling you something they know is dangerous.

      People in this country are self centered and selfish, and thats a shame.

      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      It is basically ILLEGAL to OWN LAND in the US, and any home is considered a "FIXTURE", and adds value to the land. I am speaking FACT here, devoid of the popuar propaganda. Indians generally live on land ceeded by treaty, and I guess amish have similar concessions.

      What you "buy" is a COLOR of title(the appearance of title), and the fixtures. And you must pay the bank, etc.... The PROBLEM is that the "real" owners of the property are the state and federal governments and they basically LEASE the property to you for what are called property taxes. Periodically, the reassess the property, and fixtures are deemed to give it more value. So if YOU pay to enlarge your home, THEY want you to pay more to stay on the property. This trumps EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!

      SO, if you fail to pay a mortgage, THEY may fail to pay the taxes, or you may simply fail to pay. VIOLA! You now lose the land(and thus the fixtures, AKA your HOME), for faiure to pay the tax.

      The SICK part is that they want to be "fair", and want to get paid a higher value, so they generally have an auction. The new payer MIGHT get it for less than you owe in
      taxes. Of course, they aren't really buying the property, so the cycle may start OVER later.

      And YEAH, that happens.

      Most of the US does NOT have tent cities though. I think you have been subjected to propaganda.

      Even most HOMELESS have permanent fixtures they can be in.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

        All of what Steve said aside...the real problem with the housing 'bust' is people buying way more house than they could afford. They knew it (if you dont know you cant pay for a $300k house on $35k a year, you're a moron), the mortgage brokers knew it, and so did the bank.
        RIGHT! The interesting thing is that I make a LOT more than $35K, and they would only allow ME $300K for a home! And I had to PROVE income! SERIOUSLY! How come some on WELFARE were allowed so much? BTW my home cost LESS than $300K, in case anyone is interested. I was just curious, and checked to see what they would allow me!

        But that does NOT put people in tent cities! It temporarily gives them a feeling that they are RICH! They end up where they would have been if the whole thing never happened. After all, a mortgage is a SECURED loan, and MANY people simply walk away if it gets TOO difficult or they are "under water"(owe more than the property is worth).

        Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

        This is another part of the 'get mine' mentality in this country. The same kind of mentality that has ceos that already make more money than god stealing the retirement money of the people who actually do the work to generate the income under them. Banks that have no problem gutting you and your family so they can have a little extra change in your pocket, businesses that find new and exciting ways to take your money out of your pocket even if it means selling you something they know is dangerous.

        People in this country are self centered and selfish, and thats a shame.
        Gee, don't think it is a US only phenomena, it ISN'T!

        BTW regarding taxes, people that have "owned" land for over a hundred years, and built EVERYTHING on it, have LOST it for the paltry taxes, MOST of which were due to fixtures and improvements THEY paid for and/or built! And some is later leased out for an even MORE paltry sum! Not naming any names, one company has leased an ENTIRE CITY BLOCK in WASHINGTON DC only about a BLOCK from the WHITEHOUSE, for 99 years for $99USD!!!!!!!! NO TAXES, etc... in fact, they will probably get tax WRITEOFFS!

        The ONLY time I liked it was when my mother put me in a BAD situation. She would make me a pariah(BTW for those curious, that is ANOTHER word loaned from HINDI!) and force me to put my mother out on the street in a state she doesn't know, or have her bugging me IN MY OWN HOME! I know her ways, and she wants some legal right to stay there. She has made two OBVIOUS attempts, that I have shot down. I suspect she thinks she can homestead, like in california BUT, THIS state requires her to pay property taxes for 15 years to homestead! So THAT is out of the question. Besides, any attempt to do so would PROVE the whole thing is a farse, and she WOULD be quickly out on the street!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Thomas
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          BTW regarding taxes, people that have "owned" land for over a hundred years, and built EVERYTHING on it, have LOST it for the paltry taxes, MOST of which were due to fixtures and improvements THEY paid for and/or built! And some is later leased out for an even MORE paltry sum! Not naming any names, one company has leased an ENTIRE CITY BLOCK in WASHINGTON DC only about a BLOCK from the WHITEHOUSE, for 99 years for $99USD!!!!!!!! NO TAXES, etc... in fact, they will probably get tax WRITEOFFS!
          Are you saying prime real estate seized by States in the US for non-payment of property taxes is then leased back into private hands for such paltry sums with no applicable taxes for the duration of the lease?

          Sounds like a pretty sweet deal for the leasee! If it happens as you say, I wonder why it isn't more widepsread (or maybe it is?).
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by sloanjim View Post

            wow..... i never knew this:
            Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

            Are you saying prime real estate seized by States in the US for non-payment of property taxes is then leased back into private hands for such paltry sums with no applicable taxes for the duration of the lease?

            Sounds like a pretty sweet deal for the leasee! If it happens as you say, I wonder why it isn't more widepsread (or maybe it is?).
            They aren't well advertised. If YOU hear about it others may. BANKS, as well as private investors, bid. ALSO, it is usually done for CASH.

            So yeah, it IS a sweet deal, IF you can be there, have enough, and have the wiinning bid.

            Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    The tent cities spoken of are prevalent in the US SW - Nevada has several. Many people migrated there hoping to pick up "easy" jobs at gaming towns then got there on their last dime to find that there are no jobs there. I saw news articles last year begging people not to aim for Las Vagas for jobs any more.

    You can buy the rights to your land but most people buying homes don't realize that in many places the surface mineral rights and water rights have to be purchased separately. When FDR bankrupted the US he got loans from the FED that he installed illegally on top of us. Now what do people think that government uses for collateral when they borrow extraordinary sums of money? Duh.
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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Now what do people think that government uses for collateral when they borrow extraordinary sums of money? Duh.
      Hence the term "collateral damage" when non-military personel are killed.

      " If the people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system, there would be a revolution before morning." - President Andrew Jackson
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      • Profile picture of the author JRCarson
        I've had to downgrade my cable. It's devastating.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          The problem with the email is the person has seen some of the problems but hasn't had the scope of experience in this huge country to put them into perspective. It's like visiting an area with mountains and deciding the US has a mountainous terrain - because you've never seen states with rolling hills or miles of flat plains. To have a true overview you need a wider view.

          All of the things mentioned have some truth in them - but none are the whole truth.

          If you came to the US for a few months your experience would be totally dependent on where you located for those months. To understand where the country is as a whole would require some understanding of the financial and taxation processes and experience the lifestyles of people in many areas, cities and countryside.

          kay
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by JRCarson View Post

          I've had to downgrade my cable. It's devastating.
          Gee, they forced me to UPgrade! More HD, and twice as many channels.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      The tent cities spoken of are prevalent in the US SW - Nevada has several. Many people migrated there hoping to pick up "easy" jobs at gaming towns then got there on their last dime to find that there are no jobs there. I saw news articles last year begging people not to aim for Las Vagas for jobs any more.

      You can buy the rights to your land but most people buying homes don't realize that in many places the surface mineral rights and water rights have to be purchased separately. When FDR bankrupted the US he got loans from the FED that he installed illegally on top of us. Now what do people think that government uses for collateral when they borrow extraordinary sums of money? Duh.
      The US really doesn't "borrow" money like a person APPEARS to. They TRADE like we REALLY do, or states, etc....

      So HOW do they do it? They publish a special instrument called a NOTE, which they may also call BILL, BOND, or DOLLAR!!!!! Does that last one sound familiar? And people dictate what the dollar is worth. Lets say that 2 RMB =$1! OK, the US sells a bond and says that if they pay $1000, or 2000RMB, they will make say 3% on their money. If 3% sounds good, and people feel the US can pay it, they may PAY for the debt! If they DON'T feel the US can pay, or 3% sounds too low, the price of the bond falls, and that makes the effective interest higher.

      Dollars effectively work on the SAME principle! If people feel the value isn't good enough, or the risk is too high, they want MORE dollars(So they are basically paying less for each dollar!)! HEY, that is INFLATION! and LOOK ON THE DOLLARS! "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private"! YEP, it is NOT currency, it is a BOND! "ZERO COUPON BOND". And it has a value JUST LIKE A BOND! It VARIES, JUST LIKE A BOND!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Nicky Papers
    Things are bad, but honestly.... they are not that bad!
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    There is really nothing to be ashamed about. We have got people living in cages in Hong Kong

    As Recession Eases, No Escape for Hong Kong's Cage Dwellers - TIME



    Ranked by GDP (PPP) per capita, Hong Kong is now more or less equal to that of the US and is among the top 10 countries in the world.

    List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    1 Qatar 87,717
    2 Luxembourg 78,723
    3 Norway 53,269
    4 Brunei 50,103
    5 Singapore 49,433
    6 United States 46,443
    7 Switzerland 42,948
    -- Hong Kong 42,574

    The difference between your tents and our cages is that the occupant has to pay rent for their cage!

    Derek
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by derekwong28 View Post

      The difference between your tents and our cages is that the occupant has to pay rent for their cage!

      Derek
      Some people in tents are trespessing on "private" or "public" land. So THEY may have to pay rent, etc.. or be subject to things like potential arrest!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    The U.S. is simply going through a extra tough time outside of our normal business cycle and lots more people than normal are having probs for a bunch of reasons.

    It's going to take awhile ( who knows how long that will be?? ) 4 years, maybe 8 years, maybe longer for us to get back to normal.

    I believe we'll return to another American Golden age where if you're not prosperous, it's your own fault.

    The nation can and has handled the fed ripping us off. ( not that I'm endorsing it )

    They've been doing it since it's creation in 1913 and the fed didn't help during the stock market crash and subsequent depression in the 1930's.

    But we still had a golden age from about 1950 -1980 maybe 1990. when the American standard of living was the highest of any nation at any time in history.

    But what we can't handle is massive & stupid extra national debt, (begun around 1980) Wall Street going wild and non investments by the nation in badly needed 21st century upgrades.

    But, we'll be back.


    TL
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      The U.S. is simply going through a extra tough time outside of our normal business cycle and lots more people than normal are having probs for a bunch of reasons.

      It's going to take awhile ( who knows how long that will be?? ) 4 years, maybe 8 years, maybe longer for us to get back to normal.

      I believe we'll return to another American Golden age where if you're not prosperous, it's your own fault.

      The nation can and has handled the fed ripping us off. ( not that I'm endorsing it )

      They've been doing it since it's creation in 1913 and the fed didn't help during the stock market crash and subsequent depression in the 1930's.

      But we still had a golden age from about 1950 -1980 maybe 1990. when the American standard of living was the highest of any nation at any time in history.

      But what we can't handle is massive & stupid extra national debt, (begun around 1980) Wall Street going wild and non investments by the nation in badly needed 21st century upgrades.

      But, we'll be back.


      TL
      Were you even ALIVE in the 30s,40s,50s,60s,70s,80s, or 90s? I certainly have enough evidence to support my contention about the 20s-50s, and remember even WELL into the 60s! Not everyone was rich, or had a home. We had plenty of debt prior to 1980. The PROBLEM is that congress can NOT get ANY money! If they get $1, they figure they can tax in the future, issue bonds, etc... and spend $3, NOT thinking about how the $1 doesn't really exist in the first place because they have all that CURRENT outstanding debt. They aren't held accountable for it, and are isolated from its affects, so THEY DON'T CARE!

      BTW that means the debt will basically KEEP going up, as it has. EVENTUALLY, which I imagine has just past, it will get to the point where we can't even pay the INTEREST, and then WATCH OUT! THAT is what caused the latest mortgage crises.

      Did YOU know that ballon payment INTEREST ONLY loans were POPULAR in the 70s, when we had LONG gas lines, high inflation, etc.... Does THAT sound like a "golden age" "where if you're not prosperous, it's your own fault."?

      And the fiat currency means that it is driven by perception and, if the rich get too rich, they may get GREEDY. The feds idea is that they may then demand more, which means INFLATION! IRONICALLY, THAT is the basis of the argument greenspan did before HE caused inflation, by raising the fed funds rate, which brought the market down in 1999.

      BTW I am not speaking parties here. To be honest, I think ALL should have the SAME public "pension", insurance, etc.... AND, as PUBLIC workers, ********NOBODY******** in government is entitled to a special employer provided plan! So Hopefully this won't lead to any debate, etc...

      As for the turmoil the US is going through? As I said, most countries are tied together. ALL of those are LIKEWISE affected. THAT is why europe, canada, china, etc... are having these problems.

      Did you see the thread "US Dollar now worth less than Canadian "? We should have REAL currency and, if we did, such posts wouldn't be made.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        But we still had a golden age from about 1950 -1980 maybe 1990. when the American standard of living was the highest of any nation at any time in history.
        The 50-60s were an age of optimism but it began fading a bit in the 70's and there was a recession in the 80's, massive inflation and 16% interest rates if you bought a home.

        What I'm not sure we will ever get back to is a sense of responsibility in our society for those less fortunate. When govt takes over the care of everyone, others give it up. My Grandfather and my uncles would always find a day's work or a week's work for a man who needed to feed his family and my Grandmother fed them during that week. Now we are required to pay money that is given to others who need it - and the result seems to be that the demands grow into entitlement and that leads to resentment.

        During what we now think of as golden years, we were a nation of small businesses and independent farmers and the large companies were owned by partners or families rather than hordes of shareholders demanding quarterly dividends. If a business failed, the partners lost....now a business fails and the rich owners get richer and shareholders are protected by taxpayers. Over the years, we called it progress...but we may have been wrong. oops.

        For a very young country, we sure have managed to muck it up quickly.
        My maternal grandmother would say "folks got too big for their britches".
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        Were you even ALIVE in the 30s,40s,50s,60s,70s,80s, or 90s? I certainly have enough evidence to support my contention about the 20s-50s, and remember even WELL into the 60s! Not everyone was rich, or had a home. We had plenty of debt prior to 1980. The PROBLEM is that congress can NOT get ANY money! If they get $1, they figure they can tax in the future, issue bonds, etc... and spend $3, NOT thinking about how the $1 doesn't really exist in the first place because they have all that CURRENT outstanding debt. They aren't held accountable for it, and are isolated from its affects, so THEY DON'T CARE!

        BTW that means the debt will basically KEEP going up, as it has. EVENTUALLY, which I imagine has just past, it will get to the point where we can't even pay the INTEREST, and then WATCH OUT! THAT is what caused the latest mortgage crises.

        Did YOU know that ballon payment INTEREST ONLY loans were POPULAR in the 70s, when we had LONG gas lines, high inflation, etc.... Does THAT sound like a "golden age" "where if you're not prosperous, it's your own fault."?

        And the fiat currency means that it is driven by perception and, if the rich get too rich, they may get GREEDY. The feds idea is that they may then demand more, which means INFLATION! IRONICALLY, THAT is the basis of the argument greenspan did before HE caused inflation, by raising the fed funds rate, which brought the market down in 1999.

        BTW I am not speaking parties here. To be honest, I think ALL should have the SAME public "pension", insurance, etc.... AND, as PUBLIC workers, ********NOBODY******** in government is entitled to a special employer provided plan! So Hopefully this won't lead to any debate, etc...

        As for the turmoil the US is going through? As I said, most countries are tied together. ALL of those are LIKEWISE affected. THAT is why europe, canada, china, etc... are having these problems.

        Did you see the thread "US Dollar now worth less than Canadian "? We should have REAL currency and, if we did, such posts wouldn't be made.

        Steve
        Citizen Steve,

        - I was born in 1957 so I've been around for quite some time and I've read every conspiracy theory out there.

        - Of course we should have real currency etc., and that would be best.

        I heard the fed gets to issue 16 billion in credit for every 1 billion it loans the nation.

        - I'm all for Ron Paul's bill to audit the fed.

        Getting rid of the fed's sweetheart situation would be a real boon to the nation.

        But I suspect that situations would be generated that would perhaps lead to marshal law or some other worse catastrophic situation before that happens.

        ( I'm mincing my words above regarding what would happen in this nation if we ever seriously moved to get rid of the fed etc. )

        BTW...

        Talk about conspiracies...

        I actually saw the plot to remove FDR from office ( or to make him a figure-head ) because some powerful forces thought he might abolish the fed - on the history channel.


        They have not shown it again.


        -- As far as I'm concerned, the fed was kept at bay after 1950 and the nation still experienced a golden age from about the 50's until around the mid 90's....

        ...until we started generating massive amounts of "federal debt" without good reason starting about 1980.


        -- The argument that tax cuts would spur the economy and we would grow our way out of the debt didn't quite pan out did it?



        - The nation had about 300 billion in national debt in 1980 and then by 1992 we had over 4 trill.

        It was a joint venture with republican presidents and democratic congresses.

        - The 300 bill was easily managed but the 4 trill started sucking about 100-200 bill in interests payments right out of the federal coffers and started the decent of the dollar.

        It makes sense right?

        The more dollars out here the less each of them is worth right?

        A Golden Age???

        - From all accounts from family members, historians etc., it can be forcefully argued that the nation had a golden age somewhere between the end of ww2, about 1950 and into the 1980's.

        - Perhaps your personal situation wasn't golden but the country as a whole and the average citizen experienced great financial times - if they wanted to prosper.


        - The gas shortage/crisis:

        People bitched and moaned but the higher gas prices didn't destroy people as higher gas prices were doing just recently because the price was so low to begin with and most people had lots more money cushion at the end of each month.


        - The cost of living doubled in the 1970's, thanks to higher energy prices but since the cost of living in American was low to begin with it didn't destroy families etc. - people just adjusted.



        But...


        - When the "nation debt" skyrocketed the dollar started it's decent and living standards started to decline as well.

        Combine that original 1980-1992 debt with...

        - Not protecting American industries & jobs:

        - Sweetheart deals for corporations on taxes:

        - No national investments for the 21 century: ( 20th century energy policy etc. )

        - New round of debt when we should have known better from 2000-2008:

        - Wall Street run amok to say the least:


        And you have what we have now.


        - Anybody over 50 should remember when stuff was dirt cheap and the buckeroo went a whole lot further or is it farther than it goes now.


        TL
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        • Profile picture of the author Aussie_Al
          10-15 years ago US mortgages were "Quarter down" which meant you had to at least have 25% of the total cost of the house before they would give you a mortage

          10%, 5% and 0% mortgages have become the norm and people wonder why people lose their homes :confused:
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Aussie_Al View Post

            10-15 years ago US mortgages were "Quarter down" which meant you had to at least have 25% of the total cost of the house before they would give you a mortage

            10%, 5% and 0% mortgages have become the norm and people wonder why people lose their homes :confused:
            WRONG!!!!!! I happen to have bought my home 10 years ago. The guy got about 5% down. I COULD have gotten a better deal, but it would be more hassle. If homes 10 years ago had to have 25% equity, the prices wouldn't have gone NEARLY as high, and people wouldn't have gotten into the problems, since they would have plenty of equity to use, etc... AND, at 20%+ equity, there is NO PMI!(Special Property Mortgage insurance to cover the bank if you don't pay.)

            In FACT, they actually had 125% loans when I bought! You buy a $200K home, and get $250K loan! They USUALLY want a home where they pay about 80% of the appraisal. So you can get an appraisal of 100K, get it for 80%, and maybe have a loan of $80,000 with ZERO down. And that DOES happen sometimes. And sometimes people offer and finance more to help shutout other bids.

            But paying less upfront only means there is a greater chance you may walk away. It doesn't mean you are less able to pay, etc...

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author Aussie_Al
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              WRONG!!!!!! I happen to have bought my home 10 years ago. The guy got about 5% down. I COULD have gotten a better deal, but it would be more hassle. If homes 10 years ago had to have 25% equity, the prices wouldn't have gone NEARLY as high, and people wouldn't have gotten into the problems, since they would have plenty of equity to use, etc... AND, at 20%+ equity, there is NO PMI!(Special Property Mortgage insurance to cover the bank if you don't pay.)

              In FACT, they actually had 125% loans when I bought! You buy a $200K home, and get $250K loan! They USUALLY want a home where they pay about 80% of the appraisal. So you can get an appraisal of 100K, get it for 80%, and maybe have a loan of $80,000 with ZERO down. And that DOES happen sometimes. And sometimes people offer and finance more to help shutout other bids.

              But paying less upfront only means there is a greater chance you may walk away. It doesn't mean you are less able to pay, etc...

              Steve
              Ah - ok thats for the clarification - I have only been living in the US for 10 years and this is what friends have told me :rolleyes:
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          - The nation had about 300 billion in national debt in 1980 and then by 1992 we had over 4 trill.
          In 1980 HOW many people were on the public dole, INCLUDING social security, etc...? We had MUCH more than 300Billion, even if it wasn't often admitted. And budget deficit and debt are often used interchangably, even though they AREN'T the same thing.

          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          - Perhaps your personal situation wasn't golden but the country as a whole and the average citizen experienced great financial times - if they wanted to prosper.
          My father and stepmother each started nice businesses that are still going strong. I DID start one, but abandoned it for another. MANY, including the average american, have done worse than I have.

          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          - The gas shortage/crisis:

          People bitched and moaned but the higher gas prices didn't destroy people as higher gas prices were doing just recently because the price was so low to begin with and most people had lots more money cushion at the end of each month.
          WHAT, you didn't pay for gas? It cost a LOT compared to what people made, and there was a SHORTAGE! In the 20s 5%,30s approx 0% ,40s 50%, 50s 15%, 60s 13%, 70s 139%, 80s -22%, 90s approx 0%, 2000-present 222%. To avoid inconsistancies, etc... I took averages on X0 and x9, and the 2000s were on 1/1/2000 and 4/12/2010.

          So the current gas fiascos, that are driven by a LOT of things, aren't even twice as bad as the 70s. The 70s were almost 3 times as bad as the 40s. At least the 30s seemed somewhat consistant, of course THE first 4 years was still in the depression. Many speak of 1929, but it was REALLY about 1929-1933. ALSO, the 70s had STAGFLATION! Stagflation in the 1970s

          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          - The cost of living doubled in the 1970's, thanks to higher energy prices but since the cost of living in American was low to begin with it didn't destroy families etc. - people just adjusted.
          WRONG AGAIN, people DID suffer!

          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          - When the "nation debt" skyrocketed the dollar started it's decent and living standards started to decline as well.
          What does the national debt have to do with anything? I mean I, and others, argue that it affects PERSONAL financial standing and thus social security(the actual meaning of the word, NOT the government product), but YOU have argued that that means NOTHING as "people [will] just adjust"!

          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          Combine that original 1980-1992 debt with...

          - Not protecting American industries & jobs:

          - Sweetheart deals for corporations on taxes:

          - No national investments for the 21 century: ( 20th century energy policy etc. )

          - New round of debt when we should have known better from 2000-2008:

          - Wall Street run amok to say the least:
          You're arguing FINANCES again! How can you shoot down my PREMISE and then AGREE with me. PLEASE, make up your mind.


          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          - Anybody over 50 should remember when stuff was dirt cheap and the buckeroo went a whole lot further or is it farther than it goes now.
          Again, contradicts much of what you said. ALSO, you speak of the 70s and 80s here, but earlier said that was fine.

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            In 1980 HOW many people were on the public dole, INCLUDING social security, etc...? We had MUCH more than 300Billion, even if it wasn't often admitted. And budget deficit and debt are often used interchangably, even though they AREN'T the same thing.



            My father and stepmother each started nice businesses that are still going strong. I DID start one, but abandoned it for another. MANY, including the average american, have done worse than I have.



            WHAT, you didn't pay for gas? It cost a LOT compared to what people made, and there was a SHORTAGE! In the 20s 5%,30s approx 0% ,40s 50%, 50s 15%, 60s 13%, 70s 139%, 80s -22%, 90s approx 0%, 2000-present 222%. To avoid inconsistancies, etc... I took averages on X0 and x9, and the 2000s were on 1/1/2000 and 4/12/2010.

            So the current gas fiascos, that are driven by a LOT of things, aren't even twice as bad as the 70s. The 70s were almost 3 times as bad as the 40s. At least the 30s seemed somewhat consistant, of course THE first 4 years was still in the depression. Many speak of 1929, but it was REALLY about 1929-1933. ALSO, the 70s had STAGFLATION! Stagflation in the 1970s



            WRONG AGAIN, people DID suffer!



            What does the national debt have to do with anything? I mean I, and others, argue that it affects PERSONAL financial standing and thus social security(the actual meaning of the word, NOT the government product), but YOU have argued that that means NOTHING as "people [will] just adjust"!



            You're arguing FINANCES again! How can you shoot down my PREMISE and then AGREE with me. PLEASE, make up your mind.




            Again, contradicts much of what you said. ALSO, you speak of the 70s and 80s here, but earlier said that was fine.

            Steve
            Not sure of what you're talking about.

            I don't get the national debt and the yearly budget deficit mixed up.

            I do agree with you on some points.

            We are all over the map on this one.

            My main recent contentions are...

            - The nation had a golden age from about 1950-1990.

            ( you disagree on this right?? )


            - The national debt blew-up and then the dollar started to work it's way down along with our living standards.


            - More dollars out there the less each one is worth right?


            - The fed didn't really hurt our standard of living from 1950 to 1980 since we didn't have a lot of national debt - before 1980 when it went from about a total of 300 bill...


            ( don't bother with that off the books stuff this time )


            ...to 4 trill total national debt when BC took over in 1992.


            - It wasn't due to inflation is was due to a shift in national policy.


            I never said that no one suffered or had tough times but I am saying and I'm sticking to it that this nation as a whole and for the average American had a golden age from about 1950 to around 1990.

            You seem to disagree - fine.

            If I touched a sore spot with you, I'm sorry but I still maintain my position.

            TL
            Signature

            "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              I never said that no one suffered or had tough times but I am saying and I'm sticking to it that this nation as a whole and for the average American had a golden age from about 1950 to around 1990.

              You seem to disagree - fine.

              If I touched a sore spot with you, I'm sorry but I still maintain my position.

              TL
              I think you realize there is a problem, it will get worse, etc... It is simply clear that we have a major disgreement as to what was responsible, when it happened, what it affected, and the solution.

              Oh well.

              Man, I wish I could tell you where my father and his wife went recently. They ended up going to a place that would likely have earlier kicked a certain speaker out, or left. He would have been the proverbial "DEAD MEAT". So what happened? THEY APPLAUDED! He was VERY well received.

              Maybe there is still hope.

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                I think you realize there is a problem, it will get worse, etc... It is simply clear that we have a major disgreement as to what was responsible, when it happened, what it affected, and the solution.

                Oh well.

                Man, I wish I could tell you where my father and his wife went recently. They ended up going to a place that would likely have earlier kicked a certain speaker out, or left. He would have been the proverbial "DEAD MEAT". So what happened? THEY APPLAUDED! He was VERY well received.

                Maybe there is still hope.

                Steve

                Wonderful...

                What do you think about the new Glenn Beck story.

                Is he still your boy???

                TL
                Signature

                "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                  Wonderful...

                  What do you think about the new Glenn Beck story.

                  Is he still your boy???

                  TL
                  Which one? HEY, I DID say he can come off like a kook. If you don't watch him on TV, or listen carefully to the radio, he really doesn't seem all that great. I mean his newsletters point to his site which isn't clear.

                  STILL, the ONLY thing he has in common with the guy I spoke about is conservative and a jewish background. Beck isn't jewish now, as I recall, but the other one IS! And he was in a reform synagogue!

                  Steve
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                  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                    Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                    Which one? HEY, I DID say he can come off like a kook. If you don't watch him on TV, or listen carefully to the radio, he really doesn't seem all that great. I mean his newsletters point to his site which isn't clear.

                    STILL, the ONLY thing he has in common with the guy I spoke about is conservative and a jewish background. Beck isn't jewish now, as I recall, but the other one IS! And he was in a reform synagogue!

                    Steve
                    I don't know who this other guy is you're talking about.


                    TL
                    Signature

                    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      The U.S. is simply going through a extra tough time outside of our normal business cycle and lots more people than normal are having probs for a bunch of reasons.

      It's going to take awhile ( who knows how long that will be?? ) 4 years, maybe 8 years, maybe longer for us to get back to normal.

      I believe we'll return to another American Golden age where if you're not prosperous, it's your own fault.

      The nation can and has handled the fed ripping us off. ( not that I'm endorsing it )

      They've been doing it since it's creation in 1913 and the fed didn't help during the stock market crash and subsequent depression in the 1930's.

      But we still had a golden age from about 1950 -1980 maybe 1990. when the American standard of living was the highest of any nation at any time in history.

      But what we can't handle is massive & stupid extra national debt, (begun around 1980) Wall Street going wild and non investments by the nation in badly needed 21st century upgrades.

      But, we'll be back.


      TL
      Unfortunately, under the FED funny money system, the debts can't be paid down, they can only increase. They knew that when they installed it and our debt was set to expire rather than be paid off instead of this. When was it set to expire? 2008 - just about the time instead of granting us our constitutional gov back congress went in and installed the Bail out -- and it was all pre-arranged but well covered enough that nobody but the crooks at the top understood what was going on with that. That is why congress did NOT listen to the vast majority outcry.........you's been Couped.

      A lot of the economic opinions I am reading are confusing gold-backed and FED fiat money systems at several points. That is what we were meant to do - but there is not one equivalent in the whole system.

      Here's a good read and everyone should read it, whether you THINK you understand the system or not. Remember that a LOT of cover up for a hundred years has gone into protecting the FED from us. Don't be caught in THINKING you know what they are about - take a look at the facts. They will shock you senseless:
      Dishonest Money - Reviews of "Dishonest Money"
      Signature

      Sal
      When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
      Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I'm been very familiar with all the Jeckell Island stuff for at least 25-30 years.

    The players etc., passed in the middle of the night on xmas eve etc.

    But...

    Let me get this straight.

    Are you saying that the national debt that was generated from say 1980 to 1992, ( I'll leave out the debt from 2000-2008 ) was set to somehow expire in 2008 without it being paid back???

    TL
    Signature

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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