Tennesee Firefighters Let Home Burn To Ground Because...(video)

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See the full story, video and news report here...

Note: 75 buckeroos would have done the trick and firefighters wouldn't accept payment claiming it was too late.


Glad we don't do it that way in my neighborhood.


Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground | WPSD Local 6 - News, Sports, Weather - Paducah KY | Local
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Gee, if they INTENTIONALLY didn't pay, I see the firestations point. But MAN, I guess I should start asking what is covered! There is a firestation close to my house, and I thought the property tax covered it.

    SO, do the cranicks get sued for setting their neighboors place on fire? 8-/

    As for the $75, OBVIOUSLY it is fire INSURANCE! The $75 doesn't even pay for the man power. So to assume that that is the SOLE cause, is kind of silly. If they made an exception HERE, that $75 could cause them to lose MILLIONS! I mean why should ANYONE pay then!?!?!?

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Tough love.
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  • Profile picture of the author jacktackett
    This was the policy in Knoxville TN - but its not that they would NOT respond - it that if you didn't pay, and they responded - you paid the full cost of their deployment. And that's thousands of dollars. But that was in the '91 so have no idea what the regulations are today there. Guess you don't want to have a house fire in TN.....
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    YEAH, Jack, THAT makes more sense. That the fee is basically insurance and, if you don't pay, you pay full price. Who knows, maybe someone didn't understand the concept.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    What if someone had been trapped inside of the burning house??????

    Would they still stand on "principal" and refuse to respond?

    That is a legitimate question.


    TL
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Homeowners who failed to pay $75 (for a YEAR of protection) were told they would not be helped.

      This homeowner says "I thought they'd help anyway". Wrong, he wasn't willing to commit to a small fee - so he isn't entitled to help.

      The fault lies with the homeowner - it was his choice. However, I do think a mandatory fee added to property taxes is a better way to go on this.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Homeowners who failed to pay $75 (for a YEAR of protection) were told they would not be helped.

        This homeowner says "I thought they'd help anyway". Wrong, he wasn't willing to commit to a small fee - so he isn't entitled to help.

        The fault lies with the homeowner - it was his choice. However, I do think a mandatory fee added to property taxes is a better way to go on this.

        kay
        YEAH, it should be on the property tax. After all, a MINOR fire started by someone can cause a MAJOR one that can destroy a town. I have seen the police report to maybe a dozen fires. I figure over HALF could have become major fires, and nearly all were due to someone cooking food too long and abandoning it.

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author jacktackett
    Hum - will have to review the video again but I got the feeling he was outside the city limits and this was a service the city provided to those just outside the city limits if they wanted. Of course my question is why then was there no volunteer department near by? Of am I just having a gray moment and they were indeed inside the city limits?
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by jacktackett View Post

      Hum - will have to review the video again but I got the feeling he was outside the city limits and this was a service the city provided to those just outside the city limits if they wanted. Of course my question is why then was there no volunteer department near by? Of am I just having a gray moment and they were indeed inside the city limits?
      --Jack
      You're right there, but the city eventually spreads out, etc... HECK, where I used to live wasn't LA CITY, but we STILL had the LAPD and the LAFD!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        It's interesting how opinions and viewpoints can change when confronted with reality. A few years ago I would have been appalled at firefighters letting the house burn.

        After Katrina I saw things that I couldn't explain. People who did not pay for property insurance ended up getting much more than responsible homeowners who had paid for insurance - and insurers refused their claims.

        Five years later many of those who did not take responsibility (getting insurance) before Katrina have received tens of thousands of govt dollars and are far better off than those of us who had to cover many of the repair costs ourselves because insurance wouldn't cover it all.

        I lost all sympathy for those who feel they are entitled to help when they have not taken any steps to protect themselves.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          It's interesting how opinions and viewpoints can change when confronted with reality. A few years ago I would have been appalled at firefighters letting the house burn.

          After Katrina I saw things that I couldn't explain. People who did not pay for property insurance ended up getting much more than responsible homeowners who had paid for insurance - and insurers refused their claims.

          Five years later many of those who did not take responsibility (getting insurance) before Katrina have received tens of thousands of govt dollars and are far better off than those of us who had to cover many of the repair costs ourselves because insurance wouldn't cover it all.

          I lost all sympathy for those who feel they are entitled to help when they have not taken any steps to protect themselves.

          kay
          We need tell that to the kids that owned the three dogs and cat that died in the fire while fully trained and equipped fire fighters stood by. I'm sure they'll understand the reasoning why their pets are dead today...
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            If pets were lost, the news must have missed it as I cannot find a reference to it in any of the stories. That would be horrid. Not sure how old the children are as the oldest went to the fire station and attacked the fire chief. I understand his anger but the fire chief didn't make the laws either.

            The story seems to be changing depending on the agenda of the news service presenting it. Initially, the man supposedly opted out of the fee - now the story is he forgot to pay. Don't know where the truth is as it's become another political football. Is this the first such fire there in 20 years? Or the first one a month before elections? Don't know and I do feel sorry for the family.

            I thought it was a new fee - but it's been in place for 20 years. There is a local law that prohibits firefighters from helping with the fire if the homeowner opted out of the service (by not paying).

            This is a story where no one wins. The firefighters look bad - the homeowner looks bad and if pets died, they paid the price. It's just sad.

            kay
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              I thought it was a new fee - but it's been in place for 20 years. There is a local law that prohibits firefighters from helping with the fire if the homeowner opted out of the service (by not paying).

              This is a story where no one wins. The firefighters look bad - the homeowner looks bad and if pets died, they paid the price. It's just sad.

              kay
              I also heard that 3 out of 10 counties have the same rule, that you must pay a fee.

              Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    They should have put it out, and then charged them a hefty price for it. They could have a set price in man hours for those that don't pay the small price up front. And it should be a hefty price that is taken from their taxes or wages.

    But I can see this policy leading to a non winnable lawsuit in the future. Especially if 9-11 is called, and someone is left unintentionally in the house. Or if someone like a paying neighbor is hurt trying to help put out the flames. Not a smart policy at all in my opinion.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      They should have put it out, and then charged them a hefty price for it. They could have a set price in man hours for those that don't pay the small price up front. And it should be a hefty price that is taken from their taxes or wages.

      But I can see this policy leading to a non winnable lawsuit in the future. Especially if 9-11 is called, and someone is left unintentionally in the house. Or if someone like a paying neighbor is hurt trying to help put out the flames. Not a smart policy at all in my opinion.
      Gary's 100% right!

      There must be a more sensible way of dealing with this situation instead of allowing the property to burn to the ground.

      IMHO, The policy as it stands now is idiotic.

      I'm having a hard time believing they can't do much better.

      TL
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    But you see, THIS is supposed to be the reason for government and taxes! Provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare. That means things like FREE EMTs and AMBULANCES, and FREE fire departments, etc... and FREE school. I COULD say the BUT, but THAT is where it gets political! 8-(

    But let's be honest. TODAY, anyone can get sued for ANYTHING! Just yesterday I saw a law and order where a guy was almost convicted of MURDER for trying to save someone's life! GRANTED, it is a show, but all that could happen. There is that episode of house where house makes a mistake and the patient almost dies, and house is sued for violating a DNR order! House prevents the guys suicide because it would deny him the right to face his accuser!

    As for the fire department? THEY may violate a DNR, injure a person, destroy part of a home or an antique, etc... And police get in trouble ALL THE TIME.

    As for covering the costs? initial cost of vehicles, gas, water, special chemicals, man hours. Some here get over $58/hour, NOT including benefits! Obviously, it can add up FAST! I can tell you the average cost of an ambulance is about $700-$800! I JUST happen to have a bill for the cincinati airport! Since it is ONLY in the airport, and the hospital is close, it is only $100 for mileage. Their BASE rate is $650!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      But you see, THIS is supposed to be the reason for government and taxes! Provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare. That means things like FREE EMTs and AMBULANCES, and FREE fire departments, etc... and FREE school. I COULD say the BUT, but THAT is where it gets political! 8-(

      But let's be honest. TODAY, anyone can get sued for ANYTHING! Just yesterday I saw a law and order where a guy was almost convicted of MURDER for trying to save someone's life! GRANTED, it is a show, but all that could happen. There is that episode of house where house makes a mistake and the patient almost dies, and house is sued for violating a DNR order! House prevents the guys suicide because it would deny him the right to face his accuser!

      As for the fire department? THEY may violate a DNR, injure a person, destroy part of a home or an antique, etc... And police get in trouble ALL THE TIME.

      As for covering the costs? initial cost of vehicles, gas, water, special chemicals, man hours. Some here get over $58/hour, NOT including benefits! Obviously, it can add up FAST! I can tell you the average cost of an ambulance is about $700-$800! I JUST happen to have a bill for the cincinati airport! Since it is ONLY in the airport, and the hospital is close, it is only $100 for mileage. Their BASE rate is $650!

      Steve

      Since when are all those services you listed above supposed to be free?

      In many parts of the country, most of them are normally paid for with tax revenue.
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  • Profile picture of the author sarafina
    This is just plain stupidity on the part of the City.

    Why would you give a homeowner the option to opt out of fire protection? We're not talking about fire insurance here, this is different.

    I wonder if they ask them to pay for police protection too? lol

    They should have put it out and put a lien on the house for the amount it took them to deliver services.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by sarafina View Post

      This is just plain stupidity on the part of the City.

      Why would you give a homeowner the option to opt out of fire protection? We're not talking about fire insurance here, this is different.

      I wonder if they ask them to pay for police protection too? lol

      They should have put it out and put a lien on the house for the amount it took them to deliver services.
      Don't laugh! I worked at a company once, and POLICE OFFICERS told me that they got special benefits, and did special things for that company, etc... About as close to what you are talking about without being the MAFIA!

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
      Originally Posted by sarafina View Post

      This is just plain stupidity on the part of the City.

      Why would you give a homeowner the option to opt out of fire protection?
      The south-eastern US is incredibly poor. So poor in fact that our national pride keeps the living conditions in their rural areas off TV. When people have to choose between $75 fire protection or using that money for the necessities of life, giving them this option suddenly doesn't seem so bad.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

        The south-eastern US is incredibly poor. So poor in fact that our national pride keeps the living conditions in their rural areas off TV. When people have to choose between $75 fire protection or using that money for the necessities of life, giving them this option suddenly doesn't seem so bad.
        It isn't THAT bad or that consistent. In fact, there are a TON of things to limit the level of poverty, ESPECIALLY if there are Women, Infants, or Children! WIC's Mission HECK, they made enough that they felt ok about risking the whole neighborhood's very existence!

        GEE, you make it sound like a conspiracy. HECK, there are watts and various parts of slums, and parts of Tennessee, etc... They don't hide it. Look at jeff foxworthy or "my name is earl". They show such things and even make jokes about it. They even made a COMEDY about people moving from the Tennessee hills to Beverly Hills! Ever see the Beverley hillbillies? A COMEDY, but it DOES show how poor they were, etc... Heck, they lived in a shack and tried to live off the land, etc... Even MALIBU, CA has shacks(REALLY!). There are effectively bums in venice beach, CA.

        And there are the amish. They lead a VERY simple life, trying to keep to early 19th century technology. They generally only have to stay in school until the 8th grade. The US standard for others is the 12th grade. The amish probably simply put out fires like they do everything else. All for one so they whole community may do all they can to put out the fire. Of course, I DOUBT they would be so careless with fire. Ironically, by the way, using a fire dept would technically be illegal and against their religion! Illegal since they have an agreement that they won't accept/use such services, and they don't pay for them. Against their religion because it uses technology that they have SHUNNED!

        The poor exist EVERYWHERE, why not the US also!?!?!? I've seen bums in DENMARK! DENMARK! There are old stories about very poor people in great britain also, and I have seen areas that obviously aren't high class.

        Maybe you just see it so much thatt you miss it. The place that I spent most of my life was a nice middle class place. Last time I saw it, it was effectively a slum!

        Still, it is interesting, as there is welfare, WIC, and lots of other programs. Various ministries help out. And $75 may sound like a lot of money, but compared to electricity, water, gas, general home upkeep, ***OR*** gasoline, other insurance, etc... it is CHEAP! And I didn't even mention the mortgage, R/E tax, etc.... HECK, I go for a flight, and the TAXES are over $75! So to say they can't pay the $75 is tantamount to saying they can't pay for the other things. If they can't do that, then what is the problem? I mean if they are living on the street ANYWAY, why should they be worried about paying to protect that nothing from fire? Even if they are making minimum wage, they should be able to get a 4 cent an hour raise to pay for it.

        AND, if they manage their money well, they CAN get a credit card, and carry that $75 over until they can pay it off.

        One ironic thing is there are a lot of idiots that run what are called "pay day loans". They typically charge about 10 times the interest a poor person is likely to pay on a credit card. In fact, they typically charge about 6 times the DEFAULT interest rate of credit cards! DEFAULT, in this case, means the interest rate the credit cards use if the card user fails to pay on time.
        Their target market tends to be the POOR!

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    I said "THIS is supposed to be the reason for government and taxes"! I am using free in the way that is so often thrown around. I paid 10s of thousands this year, for taxes, for those supposedly free services. By free, I mean some flunky doesn't send ME a $750 bill! HECK, all this talk about insurance, and they never tried to contact my insurance company, not that they really deserve the money, and they even sent the bill to one of the few places they KNEW I wouldn't be! HECK, they KNEW I was in a different STATE!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Why did the dogs and cats die? Were they CAGED?!?!? BTW do you know who set the fire? THEIR SON! While you explain why the firemen waited to the side without risking their jobs and lives, you can explain why the cats and dogs were locked up, and why the son set the fire. It was to burn garbage. That is STUPID, and often against the law and often when it ISN'T against the law, you need a permit, etc....

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Why did the dogs and cats die?
      They burned to death and it did happen because I saw the owner saying two dogs and a cat didn't survive. But what does he know?
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        They burned to death and it did happen because I saw the owner saying two dogs and a cat didn't survive. But what does he know?
        Yep...The owner was interviewed and that's what he said in the interview I watched...It's possible he's lying, but I'm not willing to make that claim without evidence.

        Plus, not putting out a fire puts everyone and everything else in the area in danger. The guy also said fire fighters waited until the home next door was on fire, then put it out because THEY paid the $75.

        If I lived next door and paid $75, you bet I'd want them to put out the guy's fire. I've taken enough fire fighting classes that you don't let fires burn. You put them out while you can.

        The guy even said he offered to pay for the services if they put it out. Not just the $75, put the total costs. They let his house burn.

        He also said the previous fire marshall would wave the fee and have people come in the next day and pay it, instead of having people lose their homes.

        There's an element of this country this is losing its heart. It takes a very cold soul to stand by and watch a family's home burn down, being able to stop it and not do anything about it.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          The owner also said some of the firefighters were crying while the house was burning down and after wards. I bet whomever made the decision wasn't there.

          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          It takes a very cold soul to stand by and watch a family's home burn down, being able to stop it and not do anything about it.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        They burned to death and it did happen because I saw the owner saying two dogs and a cat didn't survive. But what does he know?
        Normally, animals RUN from fire, which was my point.
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    This just isn't right at all. The guy offered to pay and they refused?

    And they let the animals die.

    Sounds like some house cleaning needs to be done in that place. It
    makes the firefighters look more than bad.

    What the hell is this?

    No wonder people around the world say, "Only in America."


    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I don't see how anyone can argue that it's a sensible policy.


    TL
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    If someone didn't pay their car insurance and had a wreck, would you expect the insurance company to cover it for the cost of one months premium?

    No?

    Same thing.

    This isn't the first time for this to happen in that area. The policy is well known and the house owner has changed his story from "I thought they would still help" to "I forgot"

    I think the policy should be changed but until it is, the residence know and are sent a bill.

    As far as it not being on property taxes, if i remember correctly, the county commissioner doesn't want to deal with it or it was voted down.

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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

      If someone didn't pay their car insurance and had a wreck, would you expect the insurance company to cover it for the cost of one months premium?

      No?

      Same thing.

      This isn't the first time for this to happen in that area. The policy is well known and the house owner has changed his story from "I thought they would still help" to "I forgot"

      I think the policy should be changed but until it is, the residence know and are sent a bill.

      As far as it not being on property taxes, if i remember correctly, the county commissioner doesn't want to deal with it or it was voted down.

      -
      No, it's not the same thing. Insurance "happens" AFTER an event. Fire fees and taxes are intended to PREVENT bad things from happening. So now the insurance company gets to pay 10X the ammount they would have if the fire dept would have put out the fire and then made the insurance company reimburse the county.

      And THAT'S the correct penalty for those that didn't pay the fee, not watching a home burn.

      It's the need of people like to you punish others is the bigger problem in this whole ordeal. You didn't sugggest he should pay for the costs, you want him and his family PUNISHED for forgetting a $75 fee to the extent of losing his home and having 4 pets burn to death. At least be honest and say so.

      Plus, what happens next time when someone does pay and there's an accounting error? I'm guessing the home owner will get an official "oooooops".


      Bad business. Bad politics. Bad people.
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      • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        No, it's not the same thing. Insurance "happens" AFTER an event. Fire fees and taxes are intended to PREVENT bad things from happening. So now the insurance company gets to pay 10X the ammount they would have if the fire dept would have put out the fire and then made the insurance company reimburse the county.

        And THAT'S the correct penalty for those that didn't pay the fee, not watching a home burn.
        Yes, it "happens" after but you pay before an event. Just like they put the fire out if you pay before it happens.

        Notice I said they should change the policy. And it's not a county fire department. The guy lives in the county. Which is outside the city fire coverage area.
        It's the need of people like to you punish others is the bigger problem in this whole ordeal. You didn't suggest he should pay for the costs, you want him and his family PUNISHED for forgetting a $75 fee to the extent of losing his home and having 4 pets burn to death. At least be honest and say so.
        Not punished. Live with the choice made. As far as paying the costs after the fact, they couldn't make him. That wasn't the agreement. That was not listed in the bill.

        He also didn't forget to pay. He has changed his story for public sympathy.

        I have family in that town and I am from the area. I know a tad more about the situation .

        Plus, what happens next time when someone does pay and there's an accounting error? I'm guessing the home owner will get an official "oooooops".
        That has happened. The city had to pay a lot of money.

        JFYI: The news station linked to, doesn't tell most of the story.

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        • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
          Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

          Yes, it "happens" after but you pay before an event.
          A little off topic (and God knows this is the place for it), but I'm reminded by a few of the comments here about a lottery incident that a bunch of my friends went through.

          Lottery was on Wed and Sat. Wed's jackpot was like $69MM and all 24 folks chipped in @ $5 a pop. Winnings yielded around $28 or there abouts, and they rolled it over into Sat's drawing. Sat jackpot was $89MM.

          Two of the people didn't want to chip in their $5 for the Sat drawing.

          Sat winnings were over $39,000.

          You should have heard all the crap those two people spewed regarding their entitlement to a share of the winnings.

          I felt sorry for them, but they had made a choice. I wasn't part of the drawing as I didn't work for the company, I was just an outside consultant. But it was a good study in human behavior...
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

            A little off topic (and God knows this is the place for it), but I'm reminded by a few of the comments here about a lottery incident that a bunch of my friends went through.

            Lottery was on Wed and Sat. Wed's jackpot was like $69MM and all 24 folks chipped in @ $5 a pop. Winnings yielded around $28 or there abouts, and they rolled it over into Sat's drawing. Sat jackpot was $89MM.

            Two of the people didn't want to chip in their $5 for the Sat drawing.

            Sat winnings were over $39,000.

            You should have heard all the crap those two people spewed regarding their entitlement to a share of the winnings.

            I felt sorry for them, but they had made a choice. I wasn't part of the drawing as I didn't work for the company, I was just an outside consultant. But it was a good study in human behavior...
            You mean they COULDN'T just say OK, OK, you can just give us $1495(because we didn't put in the $5) and everyone else gets $1500? 8-/ Everyone just kept their $1625 instead? NO, IT CAN'T BE! Maybe we should all start a class action lawsuit against them! I mean that is HEINOUS! What they should do is give us ALL the .000118 dollars. I mean I didn't pay into it either, and YOU said you didn't. We DESERVE IT! I want my .01 pennies ***NOW***!

            And YES folks, I'M KIDDING! But many here have said the same thing, etc... and seem to be dead serious. Who knows, with $10 more they could have bought MORE tickets, and might have made MUCH MORE! Alas, the state pays you only on the draw AFTER you pay the money.

            You know, a friend of MINE came here and told ME about a stock and circumstance. It wasn't a secret. Another heard about it. Well, I assumed that all brokers still accepted funds within the letter of the law, I didn't have enough free cash, so I didn't invest. The other person knew of a place that took CREDIT CARDS!!!!!! He made $15,000 IN ONE DAY off that investment! Nobody faults him, he kept all the money with no complaints. I simply wish he told me about that company earlier!

            Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Kurt,

    When you gamble, do you get to make the bet AFTER the game is finished!?!?!? If not, WHY!?!?!?!? If you DO, PLEASE tell me where/how, I would like to make a few million bets!

    Insurance, or a community prepayment that is substantially less than the actual cost, OR a poker game, car insurance, etc.... are ALL based on the SAME idea as gambling!

    With the standard GAMBLE, you are betting FOR yourself, and those at the same level SPLIT accordingly. If 600 people bet on the SAME horse, and the bets total $3000, they each get $5, or maybe even LESS! There are odds makers that try to determine the likelyhood of an event, and may pay more if there is a real longshot. If they do things wrong, the company could go BROKE!

    With insurance, you are betting AGAINST yourself! If you buy car insurance, you get NOTHING unless you really DO have a mishap, and ONE accident may wipe out ALL the money you paid and then some! They have actuaries that try to determine odds and set terms and premiums so they can be fair to all. If they fail, they can go BANKRUPT!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author PeterDunin
    I hope the firefighters wouldn't give them the same ultimatium if there were people inside the house!
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