by ThomM
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About the only thing you can't do with hemp is smoke it and get high.
Here's one of it's many uses This is the House That Hemp Built
Despite the fact that you can't smoke hemp, it continues to be illegal to grow in the US.
  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    You think maybe it's illegal because politicians get paid off to protect other industries that would suffer if hemp was used for things like building materials, paper, etc.?

    Naw, not in America. :rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author Tashi Mortier
      Are really all sorts of hemp illegal? I'm not an expert. In Germany hemp is illegal, too, but you can buy hemp seeds or ropes made out of their fibers.

      Of course you can't grow plants that give you hemp that makes you high out of them or actually get high smoking the rope. Hemp is a very useful plant just like flax.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by Tashi Mortier View Post

        Are really all sorts of hemp illegal? I'm not an expert. In Germany hemp is illegal, too, but you can buy hemp seeds or ropes made out of their fibers.

        Of course you can't grow plants that give you hemp that makes you high out of them or actually get high smoking the rope. Hemp is a very useful plant just like flax.
        It's pretty much the same here in the US.
        Actually smoking the hemp plant that is used for various products won't get you high. Also it looks significantly different then the types of Cannabis that will get you high. The hemp seeds that you can buy are sterilized so they won't sprout. Hemp seeds by the way have a very high nutritional value.
        Ironically it is because of hemp that 'marijuana' was first made illegal.
        Now it's because of 'marijuana' that hemp remains illegal in the dumber countries of the world. Some of the smarter countries like Canada and France have legalized Hemp production.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Tashi Mortier View Post

        Are really all sorts of hemp illegal? I'm not an expert. In Germany hemp is illegal, too, but you can buy hemp seeds or ropes made out of their fibers.

        Of course you can't grow plants that give you hemp that makes you high out of them or actually get high smoking the rope. Hemp is a very useful plant just like flax.
        Products made from it aren't necessarily illegal, but growing it is. This effectively protects certain industries.
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  • Profile picture of the author amo992
    O.O Wow cool looking house!


    eh...
    ..Would people get high if that house burned down?
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    • Profile picture of the author ramonacole
      Originally Posted by amo992 View Post

      O.O Wow cool looking house!


      eh...
      ..Would people get high if that house burned down?
      Haha, I don't really think so.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

    You think maybe it's illegal because politicians get paid off to protect other industries that would suffer if hemp was used for things like building materials, paper, etc.?
    ...
    In a word... "Yes". It certainly isnt because of any risk of people smoking it and doing damage to themselves or others. I saw a show with Geraldo... comparing the effects against alcohol and the ASTRONIMICAL numbers of alcohol related deaths. He exposed the actual unbiased FACTS, and how the death numbers related to cannibis were virtually non existent by comparison.

    So when the evidence presents itself; it very obviously isnt illegal for our protection.

    It really was rather disturbing to watch that show and come to see that a country who allegedly cares about its citizens would prefer that they drink poisen and die over smoking a mildly relaxing herb that virtually causes less harm than some popular brands of bottled water... Perhaps if George Bush had been a pothead instead of an admitted alcoholic , well lets stop this.

    Point:If Geraldo believes its a conspiracy...so do I!

    But then I also believe Jerry Springer is an incarnation of Count Saint German...Sent back as a prophet who teaches us to love and appreciate trailor park people...

    So dont listen to me...

    Amazing house by the way Thom!
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    I'm glad the hemp laws are the way they are, and I hope they stay that way.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      I'm glad the hemp laws are the way they are, and I hope they stay that way.

      All the best,
      Michael
      Really Mike?
      Are you that uninformed or do you really believe the lies the government spreads about it.
      You do realize Hemp is different from the cannabis you smoke right?
      You do realize that hemp is as harmful as corn right?
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Really Mike?
        Are you that uninformed or do you really believe the lies the government spreads about it.
        You do realize Hemp is different from the cannabis you smoke right?
        You do realize that hemp is as harmful as corn right?
        Yep. Really.
        Actually, I'm not uninformed at all. Instead, I am unbiased and look at both sides of the issue, not just the side that bolsters my beliefs. Therefore, I would say I am FULLY informed.
        You do realize that most of the pro-hemp arguments are way overblown right?
        You do realize there are good reasons for keeping the laws as they are right?

        Now, that being said, I can see some uses for hemp, and am open to the possibility of changing some laws regarding it, BUT only if other laws were changed first.

        Hemp paper is inferior to that made from wood pulp and only 25% of the hemp plant can be used when making paper, while close to 100% of wood is used; making hemp a much less effecient source of paper.

        Cloth made from hemp is inferior to that made of cotton and, again, hemp takes much more processing to be made into cloth.

        Hemp seeds ARE a good source of some very healthy nutrients, but the way the law is now, it is possible to get infertile hemp seeds, so it's not a problem.

        Hemp oil turns rancid very easily, unless stored in according to strict standards, but that's not impossible to do.

        Hemp rope is inferior to other material as it is more susceptilble to absorbing moisture and rot.

        So, most of the pro-hemp, wonder plant arguments fall short of reality.

        There are some benefits of hemp, but not enough to change the law as it is now, at least not in my eyes.

        Also, there are several countries that do allow the production of hemp (which is one reason why we can get hemp products here, as they CAN be imported). But has hemp REALLY changed the economy and environment of those countries for the better? No. Why? Because hemp is NOT a miracle plant that can save all of the world's problems.

        And yes, I understand the differences AND similarities of hemp and marijuana.

        I also understand it's time to inject a dose of reality into the discussion. Fair enough?

        All the best,
        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          Yep. Really.
          Actually, I'm not uninformed at all. Instead, I am unbiased and look at both sides of the issue, not just the side that bolsters my beliefs. Therefore, I would say I am FULLY informed.
          You do realize that most of the pro-hemp arguments are way overblown right?
          You do realize there are good reasons for keeping the laws as they are right?

          Now, that being said, I can see some uses for hemp, and am open to the possibility of changing some laws regarding it, BUT only if other laws were changed first.

          Hemp paper is inferior to that made from wood pulp and only 25% of the hemp plant can be used when making paper, while close to 100% of wood is used; making hemp a much less effecient source of paper.

          Cloth made from hemp is inferior to that made of cotton and, again, hemp takes much more processing to be made into cloth.

          Hemp seeds ARE a good source of some very healthy nutrients, but the way the law is now, it is possible to get infertile hemp seeds, so it's not a problem.

          Hemp oil turns rancid very easily, unless stored in according to strict standards, but that's not impossible to do.

          Hemp rope is inferior to other material as it is more susceptilble to absorbing moisture and rot.

          So, most of the pro-hemp, wonder plant arguments fall short of reality.

          There are some benefits of hemp, but not enough to change the law as it is now, at least not in my eyes.

          Also, there are several countries that do allow the production of hemp (which is one reason why we can get hemp products here, as they CAN be imported). But has hemp REALLY changed the economy and environment of those countries for the better? No. Why? Because hemp is NOT a miracle plant that can save all of the world's problems.

          And yes, I understand the differences AND similarities of hemp and marijuana.

          I also understand it's time to inject a dose of reality into the discussion. Fair enough?

          All the best,
          Michael
          You really are uninformed Mike.
          You use the curd from hemp to make paper, curd makes up more then 25% of the plant. Even if it is just 25% the other 75% of the plant can be used in other applications so the whole plant is still usable.
          Also hemp is a better renewable resource then trees as in most of the country you can get 2 crops a year and it conditions the soil by aerating it, adding organic matter, and drawing up nutrients for other crops that can be planted in the same fields. You cut down a forest for paper and how long do you have to wait for it to regenerate before you can cut it again? 10, 20 years? Here's a little info on the environmental concerns of using wood for paper. Environmental issues with paper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
          Now of course you will say this site is bias because it advocates using and growing hemp (now remember we are talking about hemp, not marijuana)
          Most bibles are printed on hemp paper, it is simply the best paper in the world.
          HEMP PAPER AND PULP ROOM - THE USA HEMP MUSEUM
          Your statement on hemp fabric is backwards also.
          Again start with the plant and look at the chemicals needed to grow cotton as opposed to hemp.
          I have hemp clothing here that is close to 20 years old and still in perfect condition. I have a pair of hemp shorts I wear every summer. Do you have any cotton shorts in perfect condition that you have been wearing for almost 20 years?
          If hemp rope is so inferior why did the federal govt. allow farmers to grow hemp during WW2 so they could use it to make rope?

          The argument for legalizing hemp is very valid.
          Hemp being illegal makes as much sense as making trees illegal.
          Both carry no harm.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Actually, Thom, I'm not going to call Wikipedia biased (EDIT: I misread the post and see you were referring to the article from the Hemp Museum website, and you are wrong in saying that 'I will call it bisaed' as I would say ANY reasonable person regardless of which side they are on, would see it as a clear definition of bias), and I didn't say paper production was environmentally friendly.

    So, are you saying ALL of the information you have about the benefits of hemp IS 100% accurate and unbiased?

    My point is that hemp is NOT a miracle product.

    You didn't respond to my other points. The one I think carries the most weight is the other countries that DO allow hemp production. While there may be SOME benefits, the pro-hemp side seems to exaggerate them to the point of making their argument appear less-than-convincing.

    As far as the use of hemo in WWII goes, so what? That was 65-70 years ago. Arguing that a product that was useful (useful, not ideal) that long ago is sill to me. Hey, why not go back to ALL of the technologies of the 1940s? That would solve everything right? Of course not, and I apologize for being facetious.

    Now, if the pro-hemp side would try to rein it in a bit and be more realistic instead of making outrageous claims, it may actually bolster their argument and progress could be made.

    Something to think about.

    Anyway, hemp is not the miracle plant to save all of the ills of the world. It just isn't. My main goal is to at least inject a bit of balance to the converation and show there is another side to the hemp debate.

    You will notice I mentioned some of the potential positives of the hemp plant. However, would you be willing to admit there are some things were it isn't all it has been cracked up to be?

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Actually, Thom, I'm not going to call Wikipedia biased, and I didn't say paper production was environmentally friendly.

      So, are you saying ALL of the information you have about the benefits of hemp IS 100% accurate and unbiased? If so, let me know, and I will expned my energies elsewhere.

      My point is that hemp is NOT a miracle product.

      You didn't respond to my other points. The one I think carries the most weight is the other countries that DO allow hemp production. While there may be SOME benefits, the pro-hemp side seems to exaggerate them to the point of making their argument appear less-than-convincing.

      As far as the use of hemo in WWII goes, so what? That was 65-70 years ago. Arguing that a product that was useful (useful, not ideal) that long ago is sill to me. Hey, why not go back to ALL of the technologies of the 1940s? That would solve everything right? Of course not, and I apologize for being facetious.

      Now, if the pro-hemp side would try to rein it in a bit and be more realistic instead of making outrageous claims, it may actually bolster their argument and progress could be made.

      Something to think about.

      Anyway, hemp is not the miracle plant to save all of the ills of the world. It just isn't. My main goal is to at least inject a bit of balance to the converation and show there is another side to the hemp debate.

      You will notice I mentioned some of the potential positives of the hemp plant. However, would you be willing to admit there are some things were it isn't all it has been cracked up to be?

      All the best,
      Michael
      Mike I'm not saying it's a miracle plant, never did.
      What I'm saying is it has many viable uses and there is no logical reason for it to be illegal.
      I agree that many advocates for the plant do go over board.
      But also many of the claims aren't as far out as they sound, look at the nutritional benefits of hemp seeds for example.
      As for the countries that allow hemp production let me ask you this.
      First does it put a drain or strain on their economy or does it contribute to it.
      Second if it isn't a viable and profitable crop for the farmers, why do they grow it?
      Why aren't the farmers in our country allowed the same opportunity?
      As you know, every where in the world farmers are dependent on the crops they grow. If growing hemp wasn't profitable to the farmer, they wouldn't grow it.
      Hemp may not be the perfect plant, but name one that is or has as many uses as hemp does.
      Legalizing hemp here would help our farmers by giving them a profitable plant to grow that doesn't require the heavy pesticide and fertilizer regime that most other crops require and will build a healthier soil as a bonus.
      It would create eco-friendly businesses that would add employees to the work force, money to the economy, and taxes for big brother.
      It would save forest's that are being cleared for paper and can be left to clean the air (which hemp and every other plant also does). Plus you would cut down on pollution from the wood paper making process.
      The list of uses for hemp really is quit large.
      Sure on the list you can find alternative sources for many of the products, some are better, some aren't.
      Yet there is not one logical or viable reason to keep it illegal.

      Your argument for keeping it illegal seems to be that some advocates make outrageous claims about the plant. Is that really a good reason to keep a beneficial plant illegal?
      Look at just the facts and forget the bull from both sides
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Mike I'm not saying it's a miracle plant, never did.
        Fair enough. Perhaps I was reading more into your comments and generalizing your stance.
        What I'm saying is it has many viable uses and there is no logical reason for it to be illegal.
        You'll notice I chose my words carefully. I'm saying that the hemp laws make sense in relation to other laws that are currently on the books. Hemp and marijuana do look a lot alike, and until marijuana is decriminalized, hemp should be regulated the way it is now, IMHO.
        I agree that many advocates for the plant do go over board.
        But also many of the claims aren't as far out as they sound, look at the nutritional benefits of hemp seeds for example.
        I don't think the claims are THAT far out, as long as the pro side admits hemp isn't always the ideal choice for everything. I used hemp seeds as one of my examples as well, and they do appear to be high in beneficial nutrients. Of course there are other food sources that provide those nutrients, but no two plants have the exact nutritional profile.
        As for the countries that allow hemp production let me ask you this.
        First does it put a drain or strain on their economy or does it contribute to it.
        Second if it isn't a viable and profitable crop for the farmers, why do they grow it?
        I would flip that around and ask if it IS so viable why don't MORE farmers grow it in the places where they are allowed to grow it? Hemp needs pretty decent moisture, otherwise it is at least as susceptible to crop failures as any other crop (though some of that could be mitigated if more research and breeding was done).
        Why aren't the farmers in our country allowed the same opportunity?
        Because marijuan is illegal. Yes, I know the difference. What I mean is that the two strains of the plant look very similar. Yes, one is taller and thinner, and the other is more squat and flowery, but the crops would still require close inspection. Plus--and this is only a guess on my part--legitimate hemp farmers could run the risk of having unscrupulous marijuana growers trying to hode their plants in hemp fields.
        As you know, every where in the world farmers are dependent on the crops they grow. If growing hemp wasn't profitable to the farmer, they wouldn't grow it.
        Some would. Not all crops are profitable every year. Plus there may be funding to grow it (I don't know that and just throwing it out there as a possibility) which could offset potential losses. Still, if it were THAT profitable, why don't MORE farmers grow it where it's already allowed?
        Hemp may not be the perfect plant, but name one that is or has as many uses as hemp does.
        You're right, no plant is perfect. Trees, soy, corn and peanuts come to mind, and I'm sure there are others that have as many uses as hemp. While you may not be able to use trees as a potential biofuel, you can't really use hemp to heat your house either.
        Legalizing hemp here would help our farmers by giving them a profitable plant to grow that doesn't require the heavy pesticide and fertilizer regime that most other crops require and will build a healthier soil as a bonus.
        Maybe.
        It would create eco-friendly businesses that would add employees to the work force, money to the economy, and taxes for big brother.
        If hemp were replacing other crops, it wouldn't ADD ANY JOBS, it would only shift them from one crop to another. Who knows, maybe it would result in a net job loss.
        It would save forest's that are being cleared for paper and can be left toclean the air (which hemp and every other plant also does). Plus you would cut down on pollution from the wood paper making process.
        My understanding is that most paper comes from faster growing pine trees, which are grown on plots by the paper companies when and where possible. However, if it would (and neither of us can know for sure until it would happen) reduce deforestation, that would be a mark in hemp's favor.

        The list of uses for hemp really is quit large.
        Sure on the list you can find alternative sources for many of the products, some are better, some aren't.
        True.

        Yet there is not one logical or viable reason to keep it illegal.
        Of course there is, and more than one. What I think you mean is that YOU don't consider any of the reasons logical or viable.

        Your argument for keeping it illegal seems to be that some advocates make outrageous claims about the plant. Is that really a good reason to keep a beneficial plant illegal?
        If that WERE my reason, it would be very weak; actually invalid. But it's my fault if I gave that impression. Hopefully I cleared up one of my reasons with my replies in this post.

        Look at just the facts and forget the bull from both sides
        And keep an open mind, and get information from many sources.

        Do I think hemp has some good uses? Yes.

        Do I think hemp should be made legal in this country? Not the way things are now.

        Do I think hemp and marijuana are inextricably intertwined in this debate? Even though they are different strains, yes. But not in a pharmacological sense, but rather a botanical one.

        All the best,
        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          Fair enough. Perhaps I was reading more into your comments and generalizing your stance.
          You'll notice I chose my words carefully. I'm saying that the hemp laws make sense in relation to other laws that are currently on the books. Hemp and marijuana do look a lot alike, and until marijuana is decriminalized, hemp should be regulated the way it is now, IMHO.
          I don't think the claims are THAT far out, as long as the pro side admits hemp isn't always the ideal choice for everything. I used hemp seeds as one of my examples as well, and they do appear to be high in beneficial nutrients. Of course there are other food sources that provide those nutrients, but no two plants have the exact nutritional profile.
          I would flip that around and ask if it IS so viable why don't MORE farmers grow it in the places where they are allowed to grow it? Hemp needs pretty decent moisture, otherwise it is at least as susceptible to crop failures as any other crop (though some of that could be mitigated if more research and breeding was done).
          Because marijuan is illegal. Yes, I know the difference. What I mean is that the two strains of the plant look very similar. Yes, one is taller and thinner, and the other is more squat and flowery, but the crops would still require close inspection. Plus--and this is only a guess on my part--legitimate hemp farmers could run the risk of having unscrupulous marijuana growers trying to hode their plants in hemp fields.
          Some would. Not all crops are profitable every year. Plus there may be funding to grow it (I don't know that and just throwing it out there as a possibility) which could offset potential losses. Still, if it were THAT profitable, why don't MORE farmers grow it where it's already allowed?
          You're right, no plant is perfect. Trees, soy, corn and peanuts come to mind, and I'm sure there are others that have as many uses as hemp. While you may not be able to use trees as a potential biofuel, you can't really use hemp to heat your house either.
          Maybe.
          If hemp were replacing other crops, it wouldn't ADD ANY JOBS, it would only shift them from one crop to another. Who knows, maybe it would result in a net job loss.
          My understanding is that most paper comes from faster growing pine trees, which are grown on plots by the paper companies when and where possible. However, if it would (and neither of us can know for sure until it would happen) reduce deforestation, that would be a mark in hemp's favor.

          True.

          Of course there is, and more than one. What I think you mean is that YOU don't consider any of the reasons logical or viable.

          If that WERE my reason, it would be very weak; actually invalid. But it's my fault if I gave that impression. Hopefully I cleared up one of my reasons with my replies in this post.

          And keep an open mind, and get information from many sources.

          Do I think hemp has some good uses? Yes.

          Do I think hemp should be made legal in this country? Not the way things are now.

          Do I think hemp and marijuana are inextricably intertwined in this debate? Even though they are different strains, yes. But not in a pharmacological sense, but rather a botanical one.

          All the best,
          Michael
          Mike if hemp looked like smokable 'marijuana' I'd agree with you.
          Unfortunately it doesn't.
          Here's a pic of hemp.


          Here's a pic of 'marijuana'.

          How do they look a like?
          The hemp laws should not be tied to the 'marijuana' laws, no more then the grape laws should be tied to alcohol laws.
          As for why don't more farmers grow it in countries where it is legal, why do some farmers here grow corn and others wheat?
          I would think because the market is limited. Also because the technology is still behind that of other crops as far as processing the finished crop goes.
          But on the other hand, this is what Popular Mechanics said about hemp in 1938 From Billion Dollar Crop to Trillion Dollar Crop

          Again like I said, there is no real argument for keeping hemp illegal.
          The only reasons are the same reasons it was made illegal in the first place, corporate greed.
          Here's a very informative site fir the argument of legalizing hemp.
          Hemp: The Trillion Dollar Crop
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        • Profile picture of the author Thomas
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          Hemp products in the US are currently to pricey to really catch on.
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          Yes we can buy them. They are imported and the money goes to other countries where people are working in the hemp industry. We could have all those people working here and keep the money from the hemp clothes, bags, papers, etc. right here in our own country.
          What Sal said is the reason they are too pricey. I'd imagine Canadian hemp producers are making a killing exporting their products to the US market, while not having to be concerned with competition from domestic producers.

          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          Still, if it were THAT profitable, why don't MORE farmers grow it where it's already allowed?
          Alot do. In Europe, hemp was subjected to the same kind of hysterical stance it still receives in the US but, gradually, that was relaxed, and people realised the sky won't fall in if you grew it...and that you CAN produce a lot of good stuff with it. As a result, the European Union now produces about one-third of the entire global crop of hemp and you can find dozens, if not hundreds, of products in the shops made from it (everything from paper to muesli bars to house insulation to shopping bags to bird seed to God-knows what else).

          That said, it is "just another product" (which is how it should be treated). And, just like nobody will say, "Hey! Check this product out; it's made from plastic! How amazing is that!?", nobody will (or does) say "Hey! Look at this! It's made from hemp! Isn't that amazing!?" In fact, in many cases, you probably wouldn't even realise you're buying something made with/from hemp at all.

          One of the problems in the US (imo, speaking as an outsider looking in) is that the anti-hemp people often adopt a hysterical "Civilisation as we know it will collapse if we grow hemp!" stance, while the pro-hemp people often adopt a hysterical stance on the other end of the scale (i.e. "Hemp will solve all our food, energy, and economic problems!").

          The truth is neither will be (or, in the case of Europe, is) the case. The experience on this side of the pond shows the far-more-mundane reality to be that hemp really is "just another" agricultural product, from which you can make lots of very useful stuff, but into which you need to put time and effort, just like you have to with any other crop you might grow. It won't solve all your economic problems...but, at the same time, growing it is not going to bring about the apocalyse either.
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

            One of the problems in the US (imo, speaking as an outsider looking in) is that the anti-hemp people often adopt a hysterical "Civilisation as we know it will collapse if we grow hemp!" stance, while the pro-hemp people often adopt a hysterical stance on the other end of the scale (i.e. "Hemp will solve all our food, energy, and economic problems!").
            I certainly hope you're not putting me into either one of those groups. I don't things will "collapse" if hemp is made legal.

            The quoted part of your post was one of my main reasons for getting into this thread: to provide some balance to those who shout about the miraculous-save-the-world-and-all-of-humanity properties of a plant. It may be a useful plant, just as soy and peanuts are.

            I'm not automatically opposed to legalizing hemp production, IF certain things were to happen first. But, as our laws are right now, I believe making hemp growing legal would cause more problems than it would solve.

            All the best,
            Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          Fair enough. Perhaps I was reading more into your comments and generalizing your stance.
          You'll notice I chose my words carefully. I'm saying that the hemp laws make sense in relation to other laws that are currently on the books. Hemp and marijuana do look a lot alike, and until marijuana is decriminalized, hemp should be regulated the way it is now, IMHO.
          I don't think the claims are THAT far out, as long as the pro side admits hemp isn't always the ideal choice for everything. I used hemp seeds as one of my examples as well, and they do appear to be high in beneficial nutrients. Of course there are other food sources that provide those nutrients, but no two plants have the exact nutritional profile.
          I would flip that around and ask if it IS so viable why don't MORE farmers grow it in the places where they are allowed to grow it? Hemp needs pretty decent moisture, otherwise it is at least as susceptible to crop failures as any other crop (though some of that could be mitigated if more research and breeding was done).
          Because marijuan is illegal. Yes, I know the difference. What I mean is that the two strains of the plant look very similar. Yes, one is taller and thinner, and the other is more squat and flowery, but the crops would still require close inspection. Plus--and this is only a guess on my part--legitimate hemp farmers could run the risk of having unscrupulous marijuana growers trying to hode their plants in hemp fields.
          Some would. Not all crops are profitable every year. Plus there may be funding to grow it (I don't know that and just throwing it out there as a possibility) which could offset potential losses. Still, if it were THAT profitable, why don't MORE farmers grow it where it's already allowed?
          You're right, no plant is perfect. Trees, soy, corn and peanuts come to mind, and I'm sure there are others that have as many uses as hemp. While you may not be able to use trees as a potential biofuel, you can't really use hemp to heat your house either.
          Maybe.
          If hemp were replacing other crops, it wouldn't ADD ANY JOBS, it would only shift them from one crop to another. Who knows, maybe it would result in a net job loss.
          My understanding is that most paper comes from faster growing pine trees, which are grown on plots by the paper companies when and where possible. However, if it would (and neither of us can know for sure until it would happen) reduce deforestation, that would be a mark in hemp's favor.

          True.

          Of course there is, and more than one. What I think you mean is that YOU don't consider any of the reasons logical or viable.

          If that WERE my reason, it would be very weak; actually invalid. But it's my fault if I gave that impression. Hopefully I cleared up one of my reasons with my replies in this post.

          And keep an open mind, and get information from many sources.

          Do I think hemp has some good uses? Yes.

          Do I think hemp should be made legal in this country? Not the way things are now.

          Do I think hemp and marijuana are inextricably intertwined in this debate? Even though they are different strains, yes. But not in a pharmacological sense, but rather a botanical one.

          All the best,
          Michael

          I'll start with one word: mushrooms.

          Some mushrooms are edible, others hallucinogenic, and others deadly. Yet I'm assuming that you're OK with some mushrooms being sold in grocery stores? Or are you on a mission to end the sale of all mushrooms, based on the concept that some of them are bad and illegal and it's hard for a novice to tell them apart?

          If you are OK with "safe" mushrooms, why not carry the same reasoning over to hemp and mj? Why is it harder to determine safe mushrooms from dangerous ones than it is to tell the difference between hemp and mj?

          Then there's your "legal" argument. I live in Colorado. Let's say I had a stroke a few years back and it left some partial paralysis (and pain) and spasms in a couple of my joints. So, I go to a doctor and get a letter for medical marijuana for the pain and spasms, which is my right according to my State's Constitution.

          Now, I'm legal in my state to buy (and grow) marijuana.

          So whose laws do we use now? The federal laws which say it's illegal? My state laws which say I'm legal? The laws you pick and choose for me?
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            So whose laws do we use now? The federal laws which say it's illegal? My state laws which say I'm legal? The laws you pick and choose for me?
            Easy there, Tiger.

            Thanks for throwing me a nice and easy underhand pitch across the the plate. Easy. Use the laws of your state.

            And no need for the "laws you pick and choose for me" comment.

            All the best,
            Michael
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            • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
              If hemp is illegal in this country, how did they manage to build a house in North Carolina?

              Is it ok to import, but not grow? Kind of hypocritical if that's the case.

              I really don't know anything about hemp.




              Jim
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by Roaddog View Post

                If hemp is illegal in this country, how did they manage to build a house in North Carolina?

                Is it ok to import, but not grow? Kind of hypocritical if that's the case.

                I really don't know anything about hemp.




                Jim
                You can import any part of the hemp plant and products made with it, but no you can't grow it here.
                It is the most hypocritical and ridiculous ban on a plant ever.
                You can spend less then 10 minutes looking at a hemp plant and a marijuana plant and tell they don't look anything a like. I say that because the best argument our government can come up with for keeping hemp illegal to grow is because they say it looks like pot plants. To a blind dead man maybe.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
              Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

              Easy there, Tiger.

              Thanks for throwing me a nice and easy underhand pitch across the the plate. Easy. Use the laws of your state.

              And no need for the "laws you pick and choose for me" comment.

              All the best,
              Michael
              Nice name calling...What's the need for that?

              Yep, you took the easy softball pitch and then hit the dirt when I threw a Nolan Ryan fastball at your chin. Now, if you want to graduate from t-ball, address the mushroom issue and how your "reasoning" falls apart.

              Your entire argument was based on not being able to tell hemp from MJ and because MJ was illegal, so should hemp.

              Face it, the truth is your argument makes no sense and unless you are willing to apply the same logic to mushrooms, your point is a total fail...And this doesn't even factor in the moral, logical and RACIAL issues of why hemp is illegal in the first place. You failed before we even get to that argument...Unless of course you are for making edible mushrooms also illegal. Are you willing to make that claim?

              BTW, you just did pick and choose for me by saying I use my state laws, but magic mushrooms are still illegal in Colorado... Looks like you whiffed on the softball pitch too. Maybe whiffle ball is your game.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    I would like to say something else about the original post...

    While I think the hemp laws are fine as things are right now, I am all for research and finding new uses for natural resources. I don't think the materials in the hemp house are yet ideal, I do think it's neat that they are finding new uses for the plant.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Wakunahum
      Superior products or inferior, we as individuals should be able to choose what plants we grow or what materials and processes we want to support.

      To deny that ability to one because it's one's opinion that the paper or fibers are inferior is a slippery slope.

      Do you now ban anything but that absolute best? Do you get rid of all operating systems but "the best", all apples but the best, etc etc?
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    I dont think anyone thinks hemp is a miracle product, but rather a very useful one... and NO I dont smoke it, BUT whats being said is that its rediculous that its illegal... not being a drinker either other than and very very occasional glass or two of wine... I happen to know that alcohol is 10 ten times more dangerous and I think its rediculous that one would be legal, and the other less, MUCH less harmful one is illegal.

    While maybe not a miracle product , it certainly is a useful one the facts are clear... and even recreational USE of it causes 1% of the deaths that alcohol causes, if that.

    I think you can be extreme BOTH ways... and its clear when you look at the death tolls that advocating it being illegal and encouraging people to buy alcohol... furthermore saying you cant drink and drive, yet making it legal to have a bar on every corner with a full parking lot DESIGNED to accomodate drivers IS rediculous.

    Lastly,

    Yes its obviously about money, any idiot could see that...and Im not calling anyone an idiot, because Im sure we all can see that its about money, and that the people who stand so firmly against it have their own biases, and express quite passionately.

    Its not the right wing popular opinion.... its not the one thats gonna help you sell a million wso's or create a bunch of extreme right wing JV partners... but its the TRUTH, which isnt always popular or gonna get you a bunch of pats on the back...

    The truth is, if you are honest with yourself, hemp OR even marijuana not being legal while this very minute that Im typing this maybe 100 people in America ALONE people are dying from alcohol...even innocent ones who dont even drink...we're talking even CHILDREN.... is REDICULOUS and it tells the truth that its not about the euphoric effects of cannibis or about our safety or protection... in fact the only reason its associated with crime is because the only way users can get it is to go to illegal places...and bad areas of town...

    Now illegalize alcohol and you are gonna see more killing than you even see with CRACK and COCAINE addicts combined... Hell society would turn on the goverment itself and half the alcoholic politicians would turn into criminals!

    Extreme statements go both ways... by the way...wood rots too.

    On another note... if I open a new factory does that just shift employee's and possibly result in job loss instead of actually creating jobs?

    I think we are all grasping at straws and the fact is that its illegal and thats that... but if we are honest with ourselves, there's no good reason for it to be illegal, and there are alot of benefits to legalization.

    Once again, I reiterate that if alcohol were made illegal you would see half the politicians in the world on back streets hanging out with criminals making illegal transcations... the reason it cant be made illegal , aside from economics, is because people, even ones who now are considered socially noble, would turn into killers, because they need and depend on it THAT much.

    Many of those who pose as strong and moral now, would turn into weak little immoral mice... if alcohol were made illegal as the scientifically proven, non addictive marijuana plant has been made illegal.

    Once again no I dont smoke it, thats for real, I have children and I like the idea of keeping them... even though I see that some of the most "noble" people in the world are fullblown alcoholics, many of whome who abuse and even neglect their families with their sickness...everyday are offered yet another place to go drink, places that are happily licenced to sell poisen to the masses by our goverment. Personally I think the people who give licences to BAR owners are the country's biggest murderers who should be in prison.

    But they arent and as a result more children will die in car accidents today that are goverment approved alcohol related. Wheres the accountability? Do we watch children die, as we are on our way to a politicians ball where the main course is the poisen that killed them, and talk about how sad it is, as we order another round?

    Yes. I am not so passionate about legalization as I am about the comparison.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      I dont think anyone thinks hemp is a miracle product, but rather a very useful one... and NO I dont smoke it, BUT whats being said is that its rediculous that its illegal... not being a drinker either other than and very very occasional glass or two of wine... I happen to know that alcohol is 10 ten times more dangerous and I think its rediculous that one would be legal, and the other less, MUCH less harmful one is illegal.

      While maybe not a miracle product , it certainly is a useful one the facts are clear... and even recreational USE of it causes 1% of the deaths that alcohol causes, if that.
      Interesting John. You just gave a very good argument which shows EXACTLY what Thom is trying to point out.

      You are talking about legalizing Marijuana and Thom is talking about legalizing HEMP.

      Hemp has to be cultivated for smoking for it to get you high. You can go out and smoke a bag of hemp and all you are going to get is sick, YUCK.

      Hemp is not cultivated to contain the levels of THC needed to use for recreational purposes. Period. It is an industrial plant. The whole plant can be used, cloth, rope, paper, etc. as already spoken about.

      The seeds of the hemp plant are one of the most nutritious foods on the planet. I recently found and started drinking Hemp Milk - it is loaded with Vitamin B12 in an easily absorbable form, along with many other very healthy nutrients. It tastes great and you can feel it energizing you - but you can drink a quart or two and never feel one bit like you are getting high.

      People have to face facts -- our population has gone past carrying capacity and we are causing a resource debt. We need to save our trees and plant things that can be used in as many ways as possible while saving our forests. We have that choice, or we can just kiss our children's ability to survive goodbye. NASA, along with a league of other scientific groups are now monitoring the planet for hot spots - those are spots where the ecology is being destroyed so completely and so rapidly that there is a very real danger of an irreversible chain reaction eco-system crash resulting.
      Yet we keep cutting trees for things we have other more ecologically friendly plants to use to make. That is NOT logical.

      Now back to what you were saying ----- I'm a firm believer in making Pot legal, too - for the reasons you stated and one that you might have, but I missed. I'm sick of watching the danger and destruction caused by drug cartels. Take their ability to make money from pot and you put them out of business. Let them go home and let their own country deal with them -- but take their means of making money in ours away from them.

      It goes back to keeping us safe - we right now are actually supporting the cartel's ability to operate in this country -- keeping terrorists in business, if you will.

      As far as smoking it -- that law has never stopped anyone who wants to smoke it from smoking it. We have jails overcrowded because of otherwise law-abiding citizens being incarcerated for choosing to smoke pot instead of drinking for recreation. Prisons are corporations and profit from these people by using them as labor slaves - making them work for slave wages while keeping the rest of their money for themselves. They are making a killing from pot smokers to the extent that they are ignoring real criminals who could not be allowed out on work releases safely. Nobody seems to care how exploited people who are arrested for smoking pot are being.

      Also - if smoking it concerns people who just don't like to see people smoke -- the oil can be used for recreational highs, too - it can be added to foods so the person is getting some nutrient and medicinal value from it without inhaling smoke. Omega's, minerals, vitamins. It's a growing trend among those who wish not to smoke anything.

      The only ones really reaping benefit from pot being illegal are the prison corporations and the businesses who save money slaving prisoners, and the drug cartels.


      Anybody can by certain hemp products in the US already, such as a pair of shorts, let's say. So, if they really ARE that much better, the public would catch on, and there would be a market. However, maybe hemp will never be made legal for one simple reason: fashion. In other words, there are not enough people who would wear the same thing for 20 years.
      Yes we can buy them. They are imported and the money goes to other countries where people are working in the hemp industry. We could have all those people working here and keep the money from the hemp clothes, bags, papers, etc. right here in our own country.

      And bags - by the way - some countries are making shopping bags from hemp which can be produced en mass to reduce the harm caused by plastics. When the bag is no longer any good it is bio-degradable. While it's in use, you have a durable bag that replaces plastic, which is a high level toxin, and the toxic waste we are creating with plastic bags would be eliminated. There is also less plastic in your house to create toxic fumes for you to breath.

      Sooner or later they will legalize pot. It may happen sooner if hemp is legalized. I don't understand why not legalizing pot should be considered the same issue as legalizing hemp. Dow Chemical might not like it -- but considering the crap they are loading into our environment, I don't care if they go out of business. Put their chemical producers to work making stuff that is environmentally more friendly. Wouldn't hurt my feelings at all. We HAVE to stop chemical pollution very soon or we're going to be facing irreversible consequences.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    I personally would be interested in hearing one good reason why alcohol, a substance that causes millions of inoccent people to die in car accidents, and causes half the teenage pregnancies in the world... is legal?

    Aside from the fact that politicians drink it and make money from it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      I personally would be interested in hearing one good reason why alcohol, a substance that causes millions of inoccent people to die in car accidents, and causes half the teenage pregnancies in the world... is legal?

      Aside from the fact that politicians drink it and make money from it.
      Umm...they made it illegal for a while and it didn't work out.

      ~M~
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    How do they look a like?
    They don't. After all, one is a close-up which shows plenty of detail and the other is so far away that it could be corn for all I know (not really, but you get the point). If I felt like it, I'm sure I could find two pictures that highlighted the similarities between the two strains of the plant.

    The hemp laws should not be tied to the 'marijuana' laws, no more then the grape laws should be tied to alcohol laws.
    IF...IF...IF...alcohol was illegal, and IF grapes were the ONLY plant you could turn into alcohol, then you may have a halfway decent analogy, but alcohol IS legal and there are other sources other than grapes.

    Hemp is NOT the answer.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      They don't. After all, one is a close-up which shows plenty of detail and the other is so far away that it could be corn for all I know (not really, but you get the point). If I felt like it, I'm sure I could find two pictures that highlighted the similarities between the two strains of the plant.

      IF...IF...IF...alcohol was illegal, and IF grapes were the ONLY plant you could turn into alcohol, then you may have a halfway decent analogy, but alcohol IS legal and there are other sources other than grapes.

      Hemp is NOT the answer.

      All the best,
      Michael
      Yes it does look more like corn
      Hemp grown for industrial use is a much different plant.
      When growing hemp you are looking for long fibers.
      This means you want little to no branching as the branch nodes will interfere with the fiber strands.
      With 'marijuana' you what buds which are formed on the inter-nodes of the branches, hence you want a plant that has many branches.
      Just the opposite of hemp.

      Well lets go back in time to when alcohol was illegal.
      Did they make the plants you use to produce liqueur illegal?
      Why not? Could it be because they had many other uses not related to alcohol? Lets use a better analogy.
      How about mushrooms? Are all mushroom species illegal to grow because one species is used as a drug?
      How about cactus?
      Can you tell the difference between a Peyote cactus and any other type of cactus?

      Do you know your argument is the same as the govts. argument for keeping hemp illegal?
      Where you are saying people aren't intelligent enough to distinguish between hemp plants and 'marijuana' plants, the govt. says the police aren't intelligent enough to tell the difference between the two.
      Either way it's a slap in the face of the American public and a good indication as to how smart the govt. really thinks we are.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Anybody can by certain hemp products in the US already, such as a pair of shorts, let's say. So, if they really ARE that much better, the public would catch on, and there would be a market. However, maybe hemp will never be made legal for one simple reason: fashion. In other words, there are not enough people who would wear the same thing for 20 years.

        Anyway, IF they would decriminalize marijuana, then I would be for the domestic growing of hemp. And I don't think I've mentioned ny views on legalizing marijuana (because it's not what this thread is about, but it does have a bearing on my personal views of hemp).

        I know my position is a little different than the "norm" for either side, but I have given it some thought over the years.

        As to my position being different than that of the government's? Thank you.

        All the best,
        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          Anybody can by certain hemp products in the US already, such as a pair of shorts, let's say. So, if they really ARE that much better, the public would catch on, and there would be a market. However, maybe hemp will never be made legal for one simple reason: fashion. In other words, there are not enough people who would wear the same thing for 20 years.

          Anyway, IF they would decriminalize marijuana, then I would be for the domestic growing of hemp. And I don't think I've mentioned ny views on legalizing marijuana (because it's not what this thread is about, but it does have a bearing on my personal views of hemp).

          I know my position is a little different than the "norm" for either side, but I have given it some thought over the years.

          As to my position being different than that of the government's? Thank you.

          All the best,
          Michael
          Hemp products in the US are currently to pricey to really catch on.
          Now if the manufacturer's in the US could buy local hemp the prices would drop.

          Mike I may disagree with your views on hemp, but I respect your right to have them. It's much more important that we can have and voice our different views then the views themselves.
          Also thank you for taking the high road (no pun intended) and keeping 'marijuana' out of the conversation. It can be hard to keep the 2 separate.
          I look at the 2 as a brother and sister, and it really isn't fair to judge the sister by the actions of her brother.
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            Hemp products in the US are currently to pricey to really catch on.
            Now if the manufacturer's in the US could buy local hemp the prices would drop.
            When I mentioned farmers in hemp growing countries raising other crops, the idea of scale came to mind, and how a larger scale would be revealing (in one way or another).

            What I really believe is that neither side can know for sure until hemp production would be allowed in many places, and implemented on a large scale.

            I also have no problem with the many potential uses of the hemp plant, and hey...if it is even half as good as the banner wavers claim, then it's at least worth studying (or trying new projects such as the hemp house).

            Mike I may disagree with your views on hemp, but I respect your right to have them. It's much more important that we can have and voice our different views then the views themselves.
            Couldn't have said it any better than that.

            Also thank you for taking the high road (no pun intended) and keeping 'marijuana' out of the conversation. It can be hard to keep the 2 separate.
            I look at the 2 as a brother and sister, and it really isn't fair to judge the sister by the actions of her brother.
            No problem. I really do get the difference...but I also get how the family resemblance currently complicates things.

            All the best,
            Michael
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            • Profile picture of the author Wakunahum
              My questions to Michael are these.

              Why do you support throwing someone in jail if they wanted to grow their own hemp and turn it into a product for sale or personal use?

              Why is jail necessary or even a just punishment for growing a plant on your own property?

              Why such an extreme and violent act for something that is so harmless?

              Who is the victim if I grew hemp?

              I would really like to know how this is justified.
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                Originally Posted by Wakunahum View Post

                My questions to Michael are these.

                Why do you support throwing someone in jail if they wanted to grow their own hemp and turn it into a product for sale or personal use?

                Why is jail necessary or even a just punishment for growing a plant on your own property?

                Why such an extreme and violent act for something that is so harmless?

                Who is the victim if I grew hemp?

                I would really like to know how this is justified.
                I support people following the law.

                Maybe those punishments are harsh, maybe the law isn't fair, but guess what? We have a general concept here known as the "rule of law". Don't like the law? Work to get it changed. I have already stated at least one condition where I would have no problem with current hemp laws being changed.

                But...

                Don't try to characterize me as some sort of guy who wants to throw people in jail. However, if the law says that's the punishment, then don't break the law.

                All the best,
                Michael
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                • Profile picture of the author Wakunahum
                  Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

                  Maybe those punishments are harsh, but guess what? We have a general concept here known as the "rule of law". Don't like the law? Work to get it changed. I have already stated at least one condition where I would have no problem with current hemp laws being changed.

                  But...

                  Don't try to characterize me as some sort of guy who wants to throw people in jail. However, if the law says that's the punishment, then don't break the law.

                  All the best,
                  Michael
                  I'm really not trying to personally attack or anything as this is just a theoretical conversation. It's all in good taste I promise.

                  The "rule of law" is a very tricky thing to believe in morally and support fully.

                  The reason is that I would not be able to turn in Anne Frank if I knew where she was hiding. The law would require me to do so but I would not turn a little girl in to be punished and hurt in the manner she would be if I were a good citizen and did that to her. Should she have not broke the law and just turned herself in? I don't think so.

                  While that is an extreme example, throwing someone in a prison/jail/cage for growing plants seems as strange as throwing a little Jewish girl in jail for being a Jew. They are both harmless acts that don't have a victim and don't require a cell or prison to deal with the situation.

                  I think the person that does this in the name of the law as is, is being a bit slothful in their approach to the matter. They let the system or the way things are be their moral compass while there are alternatives as in having your own opinion on these matters and acting on them regardless what is written in a law book.

                  Many great changes were made in the last 50 years not through using the system but through civil disobedience. Not following the law brings out attention to many important social matters. Some think that using the system is one option, which is it, but it's not the only option. Many times it takes civil disobedience before it's even approached from the lawmakers standpoint. The endless form letters that I have received from representatives shows that working the system is very difficult if not impossible without some form of lawbreaking.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                    Originally Posted by Wakunahum View Post

                    I'm really not trying to personally attack or anything as this is just a theoretical conversation. It's all in good taste I promise.

                    The "rule of law" is a very tricky thing to believe in morally and support fully.

                    The reason is that I would not be able to turn in Anne Frank if I knew where she was hiding. The law would require me to do so but I would not turn a little girl in to be punished and hurt in the manner she would be if I were a good citizen and did that to her. Should she have not broke the law and just turned herself in? I don't think so.

                    While that is an extreme example, throwing someone in a prison/jail/cage for growing plants seems as strange as throwing a little Jewish girl in jail for being a Jew. They are both harmless acts that don't have a victim and don't require a cell or prison to deal with the situation.

                    I think the person that does this in the name of the law as is, is being a bit slothful in their approach to the matter. They let the system or the way things are be their moral compass while there are alternatives as in having your own opinion on these matters and acting on them regardless what is written in a law book.

                    Many great changes were made in the last 50 years not through using the system but through civil disobedience. Not following the law brings out attention to many important social matters. Some think that using the system is one option, which is it, but it's not the only option. Many times it takes civil disobedience before it's even approached from the lawmakers standpoint. The endless form letters that I have received from representatives shows that working the system is very difficult if not impossible without some form of lawbreaking.
                    You're right, that's an extreme example.

                    See, somebody gets hurt by following the law that would turn Anne Frank and her family over to the authorities. BUT nobody is really being hurt by following the law to NOT grow hemp. So I while I get your overall point, the very nature of both lawas are at opposites ends of the spectrum.

                    I wouldn't turn her in either.

                    If the hemp law were truly unjust, which I don't believe it is, then civil disobedience would certainly be in order.

                    As for "throwing someone in a prison/jail/cage for growing plants" seeming strange...not really. What if it's coca or opium poppies? What if it could be shown that those plants had the same potential as hemp? Would it be okay to grow them?

                    It's an interesting debate from my point of view. Hemp definitely seems to be a very useful plant, but it is still a strain of cannabis and that's where the problem comes in.

                    I have read where pro-hemp people say that marijuana cross-polinating with hemp wouldn't be a problem because it would make the marijuana less potent, BUT they NEVER mention that the hemp could become MORE potent.

                    And that comes around to one of the big problems. Any pro-hemp information is so biased as to make it sound like a miracle plant that will save the world, always grow, add more nutrients to the ground and improve the economy at the same time. ANY product making such claims should automatically sets off my skepticism, making me dig deeper into all sides of the argument.

                    That's a good thing. While I knew a little bit about the potential of hemp, I have learned quite a lot more. It's an interesting plant, but I still haven't seen strong enough points to change the hemp laws based on the way things are now.

                    All the best,
                    Michael
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                    • Profile picture of the author Wakunahum
                      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

                      If the hemp law were truly unjust, which I don't believe it is, then civil disobedience would certainly be in order.
                      See this is where I would differ with you.

                      You believe the law is just. You believe that putting someone in a cage for growing a plant is an act of justice.

                      I see no harm. I see no victim. Therefore I see the act being unjust.

                      I see a group of people based on the opinion of the masses caging an individual who is just growing a plant on their property. That is not justice.

                      Justice might be a reaction when there is aggression or a crime committed with real victims but not this.

                      To support the law is to support the plant growers being in jail. It's to support someone who did not harm anyone to be locked away.

                      Now if the plant growers in the case of opium (or anything else that could become a drug) were to grow and distribute it to children, as an example, there would be victims. But the act of growing the plants in and of themselves have no victim and using caging as the response is not just.

                      At the same time you could buy aspirin and distribute it to children and that would be a crime, but owning and using aspirin wouldn't be banned. The harm is in the use of the substance and not the ownership of it. This could be applied to ropes, knives, bats, etc. They could be used to harm but the nature of their intended purposes doesn't have to be to harm. Jailing bat owners before crimes are taken place is a bit of an extreme position as you are "saving" society from a potential crime that has never happened. Hemp can be the same as it's intended nature doesn't have to be to harm one's body or someone else's as a drug.

                      I would like to preserve the basic freedoms of people being able to grow things on their own property without having to fear being locked up because public opinion does not agree with them.

                      My position I believe is rather loving as it doesn't have an over the top violent response (caging people) for plant growing. It's a position that allows people choices, options, and freedoms without fears of being put away, being taken away from their families, and putting a burden on people like me that see paying for the jailing of such individuals as wasted time and money.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                        Originally Posted by Wakunahum View Post

                        See this is where I would differ with you.

                        You believe the law is just. You believe that putting someone in a cage for growing a plant is an act of justice.

                        I see no harm. I see no victim. Therefore I see the act being unjust.

                        I see a group of people based on the opinion of the masses caging an individual who is just growing a plant on their property. That is not justice.

                        Justice might be a reaction when there is aggression or a crime committed with real victims but not this.

                        To support the law is to support the plant growers being in jail. It's to support someone who did not harm anyone to be locked away.

                        Now if the plant growers in the case of opium (or anything else that could become a drug) were to grow and distribute it to children, as an example, there would be victims. But the act of growing the plants in and of themselves have no victim and using caging as the response is not just.

                        At the same time you could buy aspirin and distribute it to children and that would be a crime, but owning and using aspirin wouldn't be banned. The harm is in the use of the substance and not the ownership of it. This could be applied to ropes, knives, bats, etc. They could be used to harm but the nature of their intended purposes doesn't have to be to harm. Jailing bat owners before crimes are taken place is a bit of an extreme position as you are "saving" society from a potential crime that has never happened. Hemp can be the same as it's intended nature doesn't have to be to harm one's body or someone else's as a drug.

                        I would like to preserve the basic freedoms of people being able to grow things on their own property without having to fear being locked up because public opinion does not agree with them.

                        My position I believe is rather loving as it doesn't have an over the top violent response (caging people) for plant growing. It's a position that allows people choices, options, and freedoms without fears of being put away, being taken away from their families, and putting a burden on people like me that see paying for the jailing of such individuals as wasted time and money.
                        Sorry, but the best I can offer at this point is a circular argument.

                        If growing hemp is illegal, and there is a punishment for doing so, then those who grow hemp should face that punishment. Now, we could argue about the nature of that punishement, or changing the punishement, but whatever the punishment is (as long as it's not cruel or unusual, and jail sucks, but doesn't meet the legal definition of "cruel and unusual), it has to be given out to those who break the law.

                        HOWEVER...

                        If marijuana were decriminalized, and hemp was made legal, then I would have no problem with people growing hemp because it wouldn't be against the law.

                        As things are right now, I'm glad the hemp laws are the way they are, but if certain things were changed that relate to said laws, then I can see the possibilty of hemp laws being changed.

                        All the best,
                        Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Indeed. I noticed that later on... I actually proved Thoms point about how easily the two get confused. Glad I could help... wish I could say I did it on purpose, but no.... it was just ignorance!

    Perhaps "guided" ignorance.. Sure, that feels better It was divine inspiration Yeah, thats the ticket.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Indeed. I noticed that later on... I actually proved Thoms point about how easily the two get confused. Glad I could help... wish I could say I did it on purpose, but no.... it was just ignorance!

      Perhaps "guided" ignorance.. Sure, that feels better It was divine inspiration Yeah, thats the ticket.
      Yep - you're ignorant........and my body is just like Raquel Welsh's.

      LOL - everyone does it, John - that's how they keep it illegal. That's what they programmed us to do. Too bad for them that it's getting that most aren't against EITHER so it really doesn't matter much.
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      Sal
      When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
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  • Profile picture of the author PeterDunin
    We should all be using hemp products,it truly is a gift from god because you can use for so many things,the only reason it gets such a bad press is the smoking element of it which I think is worse than smoking but not a bad as say heavy drinking which is legal.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I'm still waiting for us to start growing bamboo as a resource for food and wood, etc. That's LEGAL and yet we still are hammering down trees instead.

    We could put industry back on track in this country very rapidly by initializing the farming of bamboo, flax for papers, etc, and hemp. It would put many back to work, save scarce resources, and provide added nutritional sources - so we probably won't get it done. It would make us strong again to do things like this. Can't have that **** going on.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    The same thing is happening with herbal (homeopathic remedies - natural healing) now.

    I have a newsletter where they cite tests for certain natural remedies that are declared 'Astounding' by renown medical research/institutions with regard to how they work better and are safer than drugs (chemicals) in testing 500,000 people for 12 years, etc.

    Yet in the next breath, everybody but doctors are forbidden by law to make any claims about the efficacy.

    Sounds just like the Mafia to me...

    Suppress the information so that the lobbyists who make 'campaign donations' to the lawmakers always get their way -

    They get rich, we die.

    Pass the doob.
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    • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      The same thing is happening with herbal (homepathic rememdies) now.

      I have a newsletter where they cite tests for certain natural remedies that are declared 'Astounding' by renown medical research/institutions with regard to how they work better and are safer than drugs (chemicals) in testing 500,000 people for 12 years, etc.

      Yet in the next breath, everybody but doctors are forbidden by law to make any claims about the efficacy.

      Sounds just like the Mafia to me...

      Suppress the information so that the lobbyists who make 'campaign donations' to the lawmakers always get their way -

      They get rich, we die.

      Pass the doob.

      I agree totally.

      Ha, you seen the size of the pharmaceutical industry?

      Gee, don't take "their" drugs, pssst... take ours.


      Jim
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    PS...Thanks Michael for making an otherwise interesting thread turn political. Good job.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      PS...Thanks Michael for making an otherwise interesting thread turn political. Good job.
      Huh?

      It was a simple response to your question, and I honestly don't see how I made it political. You were the one that brought up federal vs. state law. I simply said it was an easy question for me to answer. In the example you gave, the Colorado law is what you should follow because that's where you live. (That's what I meant by a nice easy pitch, it's an easy question for me to answer. The state law wins in the example you gave.)

      This thread was WAY politicized prior to our current posts, and I have no desire to get into the politics of anything. That's not allowed here, and I'm very happy for that rule. (Seriously. I really thought I was only answering your question, not trying to be political at all.)

      I wasn't really name calling. The term "tiger" was meant to be lighthearted; just a different way of saying "buddy" or "friend", but with a bit of a humorous bent.

      And you totally miss the point of my overall argument. If marijuana were legal, then I see no problem with hemp being legal. I think you are making assumptions, but I could be mistaken.

      To be honest, your response kind of surprised me because I thought I was agreeing with you more than anything else.

      You also mentioned "the laws you pick and choose for me". That WAS uncalled for, as it's not what I'm trying to do. I am, however, trying to say that we need to obey the laws as they are...or work to change them. Also, we ALL--me, you, and everyone else that's eligible to vote--have a say in what the laws are. It's not as if I made the current hemp laws. So, you can knock that part of it off as it does nothing but make YOUR comments personal. And there really is no need for that. I think we can discuss the issue in a civil manner, let's do it.

      All the best,
      Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    You can buy hemp oil legally at swansonvitamins.com

    "hemp oil" - Swanson Health Products
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